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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Butterbean on March 15, 2010, 12:14:19 PM
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In anything spiritual? Angels/demons/"ghosts" of dead people, etc?
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no
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In anything spiritual? Angels/demons/"ghosts" of dead people, etc?
do Christians all believe the exact same thing regarding things of this nature?...Angels,demons,ghosts,aliens,etc...If so I feel sorry for them.....I don't see how you can make a blanket question such as this....I'm sure some do and some don't with regards to any of the things mentioned...
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Thanks windsor.
1) do Christians all believe the exact same thing regarding things of this nature?...Angels,demons,ghosts,aliens,etc...If so I feel sorry for them.....2) I don't see how you can make a blanket question such as this....I'm sure some do and some don't with regards to any of the things mentioned...
1) No.
2) I didn't mean to upset anyone w/this question, I was just curious.
So are you saying that you do believe in some things of a spiritual nature or no? If so, what kinds of things?
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In anything spiritual? Angels/demons/"ghosts" of dead people, etc?
i personally do not. Why would i believe in something with no evidence?
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There are different types of belief, so I would say rather that I have no knowledge of any spiritual entities. Therefore, I cannot hold a true belief in spiritual entities until such time as objective evidence is proved to be valid.
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In anything spiritual? Angels/demons/"ghosts" of dead people, etc?
No two atheists are identical. By definition an atheist is someone who does not believe in gods but that leaves a lot of room for other things. For my part I do not believe in anything beyond the material but I have met atheists who do.
(I am not upset) but just as there are myriad different Christians that believe myriad different things so too are there similar such atheists. Still, I think that materialism and atheism generally DO go hand in hand.
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No two atheists are identical. By definition an atheist is someone who does not believe in gods but that leaves a lot of room for other things. For my part I do not believe in anything beyond the material but I have met atheists who do.
(I am not upset) but just as there are myriad different Christians that believe myriad different things so too are there similar such atheists. Still, I think that materialism and atheism generally DO go hand in hand.
welcome back
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Thanks YR and D for your answers!
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I think the really strange thing is what God himself/itself believes in according to the Bible...
When Adam and Eve are exiled from the Garden of Eden some form of bestial seraphs are sent to guard and bar the gates of Eden least they return.
In the Old Testament you have Yahweh (God the Father) recognising the other Middle Eastern gods; Baal etc etc... Yahweh never claims to be the only god, merely to be the one and only god of the Israelites, while still conceding the existence of other gods and acknowledging them as actually being gods.
Then you have the angels and the seraphim and the Archangels... all immortal and all imbued with terrible destructive powers.
When Moses meets Yahweh, Moses assumes him to be a jinn (a genie; genii or djinn) and even attempts to capture this bush-burning jinn by asking his name (if you know the name of a jinn; you can capture/control it)... yet Yahweh plays along with this, tacitly classifying himself as a jinn and even explaining which sort of jinn he is (ie: what sort of box will hold him).
In the New Testament you have the evil demonic spirits which possess and animate humans and animals ("I am Legion; for we are many...").
Jesus recognises Satan as some sort of godlike being... even conceding his ability to alter fate and reality at a whim.
Then you have Elijah... who reincarnated (presumably as John the Baptist) despite never dying (he was taken into heaven), then appears as a spectral ghost.
...oh yeah, can't forget the Holy Spirit: 'cause if you deny him that's the one and only sin which can never be forgiven.
So, in total, that's...
-the seraphs guarding the gates of Eden
-Yahweh in the form of a thundercloud/rain god
-Baal
-Dagon
-Moloch
-the god of the Canninites; the god of the Philistines; the gods of Egypt; and various Middle Eastern gods
-the angels
-the seraphim
-the archangels
-the host of angels
-the Angel of Death
-Yahweh in the form of an imprisoned jinn (Ark of the Covenant)
-Legion and the other demonic spirits
-Satan
-Elijah
-the Holy Spirit
-Jesus the Messiah
-the Risen Jesus
...phew, that's some monotheism you guys got there.
The Luke
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I think the really strange thing is what God himself/itself believes in according to the Bible...
When Adam and Eve are exiled from the Garden of Eden some form of bestial seraphs are sent to guard and bar the gates of Eden least they return.
Then you have the angels and the seraphim and the Archangels... all immortal and all imbued with terrible destructive powers.
In the New Testament you have the evil demonic spirits which possess and animate humans and animals ("I am Legion; for we are many...").
Yeah, the bible states that God created the Angels, some of which fell w/satan and became demons. Not sure what you are saying the conflict is here ???
In the Old Testament you have Yahweh (God the Father) recognising the other Middle Eastern gods; Baal etc etc... Yahweh never claims to be the only god, merely to be the one and only god of the Israelites, while still conceding the existence of other gods and acknowledging them as actually being gods.
Luke, do you realize that anything can be considered a god to someone? For instance the golden calf was worshipped as a god....crack can be the crackhead's god ...doesn't mean it had divine powers.... Yahweh only acknowledged the existence of other gods pertaining to how people worshipped ungodly things. He did not acknowledge that these gods were real, divine beings.
Jesus recognises Satan as some sort of godlike being... even conceding his ability to alter fate and reality at a whim.
Then you have Elijah... who reincarnated
Can you please provide scriptures for these statements? Thanks!
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Yeah, the bible states that God created the Angels, some of which fell w/satan and became demons. Not sure what you are saying the conflict is here ???
...does it actually say that?
I think the Milton's "Paradise Lost" meme has leaked into common Christian belief.
Luke, do you realize that anything can be considered a god to someone? For instance the golden calf was worshipped as a god....crack can be the crackhead's god ...doesn't mean it had divine powers.... Yahweh only acknowledged the existence of other gods pertaining to how people worshipped ungodly things. He did not acknowledge that these gods were real, divine beings.
...absolute hogwash.
During the reign of the Judges for example, the rulers of Israel (the Judges) openly worshipped Baal because they were living beyond the scope of Yahweh's presence (the Ark)... read about it yourself: some of the Judges in the Book of Judges have names like Jerubaal ("Glory of Baal").
Yahweh started as a localised storm god... and the archaeological record shows he was worshipped with both human sacrifice and in conjunction with his wife/consort Astarte.
...and let's not even get started on the flipside of your assertion that a god isn't necessarily divine just because someone believes in it; if you don't see how that reflects on your own faith I doubt I can help you.
Can you please provide scriptures for these statements? Thanks!
Jesus Christ Stella... (sigh)... I'm working from the memory of sermons I heard before I was eight (when I stopped going to church) and I seem to know much more about Christianity than you do.
Yet you constantly point out strangely misguided non-sequitur assertions, assuming I have no understanding or even basic reading comprehension... sorry, but it's not atheists who don't understand religion, it's believers... (no offence intended).
If YOU don't know the story of Jesus being tempted in the wilderness; or Jesus rising into heaven to meet Moses and Elijah... maybe you should take the time to read the New Testament...?
The Luke
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During the reign of the Judges for example, the rulers of Israel (the Judges) openly worshipped Baal because they were living beyond the scope of Yahweh's presence (the Ark)...
The Luke
Luke,
The Judges did not worship Baal or anything other than God.
Judges 2:10-19 (New International Version)
10 After that whole generation had been gathered to their fathers, another generation grew up, who knew neither the LORD nor what he had done for Israel. 11 Then the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD and served the Baals. 12 They forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of Egypt. They followed and worshiped various gods of the peoples around them. They provoked the LORD to anger 13 because they forsook him and served Baal and the Ashtoreths. 14 In his anger against Israel the LORD handed them over to raiders who plundered them. He sold them to their enemies all around, whom they were no longer able to resist. 15 Whenever Israel went out to fight, the hand of the LORD was against them to defeat them, just as he had sworn to them. They were in great distress.
16 Then the LORD raised up judges, who saved them out of the hands of these raiders. 17 Yet they would not listen to their judges but prostituted themselves to other gods and worshiped them. Unlike their fathers, they quickly turned from the way in which their fathers had walked, the way of obedience to the LORD's commands. 18 Whenever the LORD raised up a judge for them, he was with the judge and saved them out of the hands of their enemies as long as the judge lived; for the LORD had compassion on them as they groaned under those who oppressed and afflicted them. 19 But when the judge died, the people returned to ways even more corrupt than those of their fathers, following other gods and serving and worshiping them. They refused to give up their evil practices and stubborn ways.
some of the Judges in the Book of Judges have names like Jerubaal ("Glory of Baal").
The Luke
Jerub-Baal does not mean "Glory of Baal." Gideon, a Judge, demolished one of Baal's altars, and for this they called him Jerub-Baal.
Judges 6:28-32
28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!
29 They asked each other, "Who did this?"
When they carefully investigated, they were told, "Gideon son of Joash did it."
30 The men of the town demanded of Joash, "Bring out your son. He must die, because he has broken down Baal's altar and cut down the Asherah pole beside it."
31 But Joash replied to the hostile crowd around him, "Are you going to plead Baal's cause? Are you trying to save him? Whoever fights for him shall be put to death by morning! If Baal really is a god, he can defend himself when someone breaks down his altar." 32 So that day they called Gideon "Jerub-Baal, [a] " saying, "Let Baal contend with him," because he broke down Baal's altar.
Footnotes:
1. Judges 6:32 Jerub-Baal means let Baal contend.
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So, in total, that's...
-the seraphs guarding the gates of Eden
-Yahweh in the form of a thundercloud/rain god
-Baal
-Dagon
-Moloch
-the god of the Canninites; the god of the Philistines; the gods of Egypt; and various Middle Eastern gods
-the angels
-the seraphim
-the archangels
-the host of angels
-the Angel of Death
-Yahweh in the form of an imprisoned jinn (Ark of the Covenant)
-Legion and the other demonic spirits
-Satan
-Elijah
-the Holy Spirit
-Jesus the Messiah
-the Risen Jesus
...phew, that's some monotheism you guys got there.
The Luke
What's your point, The Luke?
So the Bible says that spiritual beings do exist. How is this Monotheism? In the Bible it is strictly forbidden to worship any of these spiritual beings, other than God. Jesus is God, the Son.
BTW, you attempt to make your list seem long by listing angels six times. ;D
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I'm working from the memory of sermons I heard before I was eight (when I stopped going to church)
This explains everything!
Luke you seem like a nice person but you are pulling stuff out of your heiny (no offense)! ;D
When you are ready to debate off of scripture, then we can have a conversation.
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So the Bible says that spiritual beings do exist. How is this Monotheism?
...you missed my point completely.
The one and only true god asserts the existence of dozens of species of immortal god-like spiritual beings (numbering in the millions, by the way) which every Christian must accept as an article of faith, while simultaneously claiming to be monotheists... how many pagan religions have millions upon millions of demi-gods and angels in their pantheons?
What kind of monotheism has a million plus god-like spirits?
Aside from that, your point about Judges such as Jerubaal is well taken... I should have been more specific.
The passage you are referring to is most probably a Mishna... an apologetic story added later to reconcile an inconsistency. It is well known from the archaeological record that during the time of the Judges the Jews were openly worshipping both the native gods of Canaan and the gods of their foreign neighbours. State sanctioned temples to Baal were built during this time.
Besides, Gideon/Jerubbaal had to be rehabilitated as he would have been a practitioner of Edomic Judaism... which (seemingly) included Astarte (Yahweh's wife/consort). Better to make him the champion of the Jerusalem-based monotheistic Judaism which later won out over the Edomites.
This explains everything!
Luke you seem like a nice person but you are pulling stuff out of your heiny (no offense)! ;D
When you are ready to debate off of scripture, then we can have a conversation.
You've never heard of the Transfiguration...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus
Or the Temptation of Jesus...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temptation_of_Jesus
Or Jesus' reference to the reincarnation of Elijah...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah
...there are actual references for Jesus assertion that John the Baptist was actually Elijah reincarnated:
"And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, the one who is to come." ...referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 11:14
"Then the disciples asked him, 'Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?'
He said in reply, "Elijah will indeed come and restore all things; but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did to him whatever they pleased. So also will the Son of Man suffer at their hands."
...again referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 17:10-17:13
"He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord." ...referring to the as yet unborn John the Baptist... Luke 1:16
This is a bad habit of yours Stella... you admonish atheists for making up facts and references that are actually commonly known; and commonly understood.
It's like an atheist criticising the Ten Commandments only to be shouted down by a Christian claiming there are no such commandments in the Bible.
What kind of Christian hasn't read the Gospels, but then accuses those who refer to them of fabrication?
This is why no one wants to debate you fundies... you don't even know the Bible as well as the atheists. But I suppose that's unfair, if you understood it as well as the atheists do... you'd all be atheists too.
The Luke
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...you missed my point completely.
The one and only true god asserts the existence of dozens of species of immortal god-like spiritual beings (numbering in the millions, by the way) which every Christian must accept as an article of faith, while simultaneously claiming to be monotheists... how many pagan religions have millions upon millions of demi-gods and angels in their pantheons?
What kind of monotheism has a million plus god-like spirits?
Aside from that, your point about Judges such as Jerubaal is well taken... I should have been more specific.
The passage you are referring to is most probably a Mishna... an apologetic story added later to reconcile an inconsistency. It is well known from the archaeological record that during the time of the Judges the Jews were openly worshipping both the native gods of Canaan and the gods of their foreign neighbours. State sanctioned temples to Baal were built during this time.
Besides, Gideon/Jerubbaal had to be rehabilitated as he would have been a practitioner of Edomic Judaism... which (seemingly) included Astarte (Yahweh's wife/consort). Better to make him the champion of the Jerusalem-based monotheistic Judaism which later won out over the Edomites.
You've never heard of the Transfiguration...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus
Or the Temptation of Jesus...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temptation_of_Jesus
Or Jesus' reference to the reincarnation of Elijah...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah
...there are actual references for Jesus assertion that John the Baptist was actually Elijah reincarnated:
"And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, the one who is to come." ...referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 11:14
"Then the disciples asked him, 'Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?'
He said in reply, "Elijah will indeed come and restore all things; but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did to him whatever they pleased. So also will the Son of Man suffer at their hands."
...again referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 17:10-17:13
"He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord." ...referring to the as yet unborn John the Baptist... Luke 1:16
This is a bad habit of yours Stella... you admonish atheists for making up facts and references that are actually commonly known; and commonly understood.
It's like an atheist criticising the Ten Commandments only to be shouted down by a Christian claiming there are no such commandments in the Bible.
What kind of Christian hasn't read the Gospels, but then accuses those who refer to them of fabrication?
This is why no one wants to debate you fundies... you don't even know the Bible as well as the atheists. But I suppose that's unfair, if you understood it as well as the atheists do... you'd all be atheists too.
The Luke
The last one who needs to criticize anybody of lack of Bible knowledge is YOU, Luke. I've lost count of how many times, you've been taken to the woodshed, after making stupid statements about Scripture, which you couldn't back and were blatantly false.
I've asked you the most simplistic and basic questions about your assertions, and you've dodged them without fail, time and time again. A prime example was your daft claims about the Gospel of Matthew. As I recall, you were asked by me (and Loco) TO PROVE that Matthew cited the birth of Christ on Dec. 25. that there were exactly three wise men, and that they found Christ at His birth.
You disappered for weeks and, when you returned, ducked the DIRECT questions put to you, for equally as long.
Therefore, your silly attempt to slight STella makes you look even more ridiculous than usual (and that takes some doing).
Add to that, Loco just chopped up your claims about the Judges. So yet again, your criticizing him, STella, or anyone else about lack of Bible knowledge is laughable, to say the least.
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I'll be praying for you Luke...
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...you missed my point completely.
The one and only true god asserts the existence of dozens of species of immortal god-like spiritual beings (numbering in the millions, by the way) which every Christian must accept as an article of faith, while simultaneously claiming to be monotheists... how many pagan religions have millions upon millions of demi-gods and angels in their pantheons?
What kind of monotheism has a million plus god-like spirits?
Aside from that, your point about Judges such as Jerubaal is well taken... I should have been more specific.
The passage you are referring to is most probably a Mishna... an apologetic story added later to reconcile an inconsistency. It is well known from the archaeological record that during the time of the Judges the Jews were openly worshipping both the native gods of Canaan and the gods of their foreign neighbours. State sanctioned temples to Baal were built during this time.
Besides, Gideon/Jerubbaal had to be rehabilitated as he would have been a practitioner of Edomic Judaism... which (seemingly) included Astarte (Yahweh's wife/consort). Better to make him the champion of the Jerusalem-based monotheistic Judaism which later won out over the Edomites.
You've never heard of the Transfiguration...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus
Or the Temptation of Jesus...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temptation_of_Jesus
Or Jesus' reference to the reincarnation of Elijah...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah
...there are actual references for Jesus assertion that John the Baptist was actually Elijah reincarnated:
"And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, the one who is to come." ...referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 11:14
"Then the disciples asked him, 'Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?'
He said in reply, "Elijah will indeed come and restore all things; but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did to him whatever they pleased. So also will the Son of Man suffer at their hands."
...again referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 17:10-17:13
"He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord." ...referring to the as yet unborn John the Baptist... Luke 1:16
This is a bad habit of yours Stella... you admonish atheists for making up facts and references that are actually commonly known; and commonly understood.
It's like an atheist criticising the Ten Commandments only to be shouted down by a Christian claiming there are no such commandments in the Bible.
What kind of Christian hasn't read the Gospels, but then accuses those who refer to them of fabrication?
This is why no one wants to debate you fundies... you don't even know the Bible as well as the atheists. But I suppose that's unfair, if you understood it as well as the atheists do... you'd all be atheists too.
The Luke
Luke, I'm not sure but I think you're the only atheist on here I've ever thought pretty much makes stuff up so I don't think it could really be called a habit. Seems like other atheists here will cite scripture and argue for/against their point stemming from their interpretations of it....I guess that way makes more sense to me then trying to "debate" using memories you have as an 8 year old etc. In any case, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings...if I did, I apologize!
Luke, the bible doesn't teach reincarnation. John the Baptist was a "type" of Elijah, not Elijah
Also, Elijah never died. 2 Kings 2:11-12
Doesn't someone need to die to be "reincarnated?"
And, at the Mount of Transfiguration, the disciples recognized Elijah as Elijah.
Are you saying that Elijah turned into John and back into Elijah again ???
Before the tribulation Elijah may be one of the 2 witnesses that appear and preach the return of Christ. If so, he is still Elijah then also.
In addition, in John 1:21: (Jews are asking John who he is)
They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
"No."
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Luke, I'm not sure but I think you're the only atheist I've ever admonished for making stuff up so I don't think it could really be called a "habit" of mine. Seems like other atheists here will cite scripture and argue for/against their point stemming from their interpretations of it....I guess that way makes more sense to me then trying to "debate" using memories you have as an 8 year old etc.
Luke, the bible doesn't teach reincarnation. John the Baptist was a "type" of Elijah, not Elijah
Also, Elijah never died. 2 Kings 2:11-12
Doesn't someone need to die to be "reincarnated?"
And, at the Mount of Transfiguration, the disciples recognized Elijah as Elijah.
Are you saying that Elijah turned into John and back into Elijah again ???
Before the tribulation Elijah may be one of the 2 witnesses that appear and preach the return of Christ. If so, he is still Elijah then also.
In addition, in John 1:21: (Jews are asking John who he is)
They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
"No."
Read my post... or read the Bible for yourself.
It's right there straight from Jeebus' mouth: Matthew 17:10-17:13 "...but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him..."
The Jews believed Elijah had to return to the Earth to die... as he had ascended into heaven on a fiery chariot whilst still alive. Even Jesus didn't ascend into heaven without dying first.
But if you're uncomfortable with the idea that Christianity involves reincarnation... well then I suppose you can simply dismiss Jesus' assertion that John the Baptist was Elijah; and then dismiss the assertion of the announcing angel to Zachariah that John the Baptist would be Elijah.
After all, most Christians are very practiced at dismissing the more unpleasant aspects of Judeo-Christian beliefs... I suppose adding reincarnation to the list of selectively dismissed concepts doesn't make a difference.
But, honestly, I don't see the need... the majority of Christians believed in the universal reincarnation of all souls right up until the Renaissance: the Cathars; the Bogomils; the Old Believers; the Gnostics etc etc all assumed in a cycle of reincarnation, till the soul died without sin (assumedly after reincarnation as a Perfecti).
The Luke
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The Luke,
We all agree that when it comes to the Bible and to Christianity, you just make stuff up as you go and provide zero citation to any sources whatsoever.
About the Bible, you either have no clue or simply spew misinformation on purpose.
That's a pity. Aside from your bogus Bible posts and your belief in Bigfoot, you seem like a very intelligent guy and I do enjoy how you own SAMSON on the politics board! :)
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The Luke,
We all agree that when it comes to the Bible and to Christianity, you just make stuff up as you go and provide zero citation to any sources whatsoever.
About the Bible, you either have no clue or simply spew misinformation on purpose.
That's a pity. Aside from your bogus Bible posts and your belief in Bigfoot, you seem like a very intelligent guy and I do enjoy how you own SAMSON on the politics board! :)
I provided quotes in this instance.... but as usual, no one ever cites a source that refutes my claims; they simply assert that I'm making things up.
I think this is because of a lack of education.
When I claim the Cathars; Bogomils etc and many other Christians sects believed in reincarnation... that somehow makes me a liar; no need to do any research on the Cathars or the Bogomils. Luke is a liar.
When I claim that even Jesus referred to reincarnation... then I'm somehow making things up.
If I provide the specific scriptural passages and even cite them here in this thread... then somehow I'm simply spewing misinformation.
I know this thread is titled "Do Atheists believe..." but isn't it interesting that an atheist can't even convince you guys of what is in a book you all supposedly believe in yet seemingly haven't read.
The Luke
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I provided quotes in this instance.... but as usual, no one ever cites a source that refutes my claims; they simply assert that I'm making things up.
I think this is because of a lack of education.
When I claim the Cathars; Bogomils etc and many other Christians sects believed in reincarnation... that somehow makes me a liar; no need to do any research on the Cathars or the Bogomils. Luke is a liar.
When I claim that even Jesus referred to reincarnation... then I'm somehow making things up.
If I provide the specific scriptural passages and even cite them here in this thread... then somehow I'm simply spewing misinformation.
I know this thread is titled "Do Atheists believe..." but isn't it interesting that an atheist can't even convince you guys of what is in a book you all supposedly believe in yet seemingly haven't read.
The Luke
You claim STella doesn't know her Bible, but she owned you on your reincarnation claim. "Reincarnation" is not in the Bible. And your single, out of context Jesus quote neither mentions "Reincarnation" nor does it say that John the Baptist was literally Elijah.
Actually, you saying that John the Baptist was Elijah "reincarnated" from Matthew 17:11-13 shows how very little you know about the Bible. Jesus was not saying that John the Baptist and Elijah were literally the same person. What Jesus was saying is that the prophecy of Elijah coming back was referring to somebody else, John the Baptist, who would come in the same spirit and power of Elijah, and that John the Baptist was whom the prophecy was referring to when it said Elijah would come back:
Luke 1:17
17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous葉o make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Never says that he is Elijah.
And that's just to add to what STella already posted:
Luke, I'm not sure but I think you're the only atheist on here I've ever thought pretty much makes stuff up so I don't think it could really be called a habit. Seems like other atheists here will cite scripture and argue for/against their point stemming from their interpretations of it....I guess that way makes more sense to me then trying to "debate" using memories you have as an 8 year old etc. In any case, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings...if I did, I apologize!
Luke, the bible doesn't teach reincarnation. John the Baptist was a "type" of Elijah, not Elijah
Also, Elijah never died. 2 Kings 2:11-12
Doesn't someone need to die to be "reincarnated?"
And, at the Mount of Transfiguration, the disciples recognized Elijah as Elijah.
Are you saying that Elijah turned into John and back into Elijah again ???
Before the tribulation Elijah may be one of the 2 witnesses that appear and preach the return of Christ. If so, he is still Elijah then also.
In addition, in John 1:21: (Jews are asking John who he is)
They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
"No."
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Jesus didn't say "someone like Elijah" he said Elijah... so did the angel speaking on behalf of God himself.
Are you calling Jesus a liar?
Are you calling the archangel a liar?
Are you calling God himself a liar?
Epic cognitive dissonance.
The Luke
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Jesus didn't say "someone like Elijah" he said Elijah... so did the angel speaking on behalf of God himself.
Are you calling Jesus a liar?
Are you calling the archangel a liar?
Are you calling God himself a liar?
Epic cognitive dissonance.
The Luke
Nope and nope:
Luke 1:17
17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous葉o make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
And why have you not addressed any of STella's points on reincarnation? So do you or do you not have to die first in order to reincarnate?
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Nope and nope:
Luke 1:17
17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous葉o make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
And why have you not addressed any of STella's points on reincarnation? So do you or do you not have to die first in order to reincarnate?
Because "cluck and duck" is Luke's specialty!!
You and STella provided chapter and verse, carving Luke's boneheaded claims apart like a Thanksgiving turkey.
Thanks for picking up the slack, as I've been preoccupied (for reasons you and STella already know).
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Thanks for picking up the slack, as I've been preoccupied (for reasons you and STella already know).
:D
And thanks loco for taking the time to thoroughly explain :)
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:D
And thanks loco for taking the time to thoroughly explain :)
No, thank you! :)
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Okay guys, sorry, my bad... guess I was just misinformed.
So, let me get this straight...
Christians believe in:
-incarnation, but not re-incarnation
-angels; seraphs; cherubim; archangels; jinn and demons, but not ghosts... except for the Holy Ghost
-both God and Satan, but Satan is not A god... despite his ability to do pretty much everything God can do
-an Angel of Death... who similarly is not a god, despite being able to lay waste entire races of people
-a host of angels numbering in the millions... despite the Bible containing less than a dozen manifest angels
-a talking, walking snake/serpent
-a prophet who ascended into heaven on a fiery chariot but must return to earth to do, so he can go (back) to heaven
...that's some MONOtheism you guys got going.
The Luke
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Okay guys, sorry, my bad... guess I was just misinformed.
So, let me get this straight...
Christians believe in:
-incarnation, but not re-incarnation
-angels; seraphs; cherubim; archangels; jinn and demons, but not ghosts... except for the Holy Ghost
-both God and Satan, but Satan is not A god... despite his ability to do pretty much everything God can do
-an Angel of Death... who similarly is not a god, despite being able to lay waste entire races of people
-a host of angels numbering in the millions... despite the Bible containing less than a dozen manifest angels
-a talking, walking snake/serpent
-a prophet who ascended into heaven on a fiery chariot but must return to earth to do, so he can go (back) to heaven
...that's some MONOtheism you guys got going.
The Luke
No.
And why have you not addressed any of STella's points on reincarnation? So do you or do you not have to die first in order to reincarnate?
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No.
And why have you not addressed any of STella's points on reincarnation? So do you or do you not have to die first in order to reincarnate?
I don't understand her "points" (plural) as you put it... all I saw was a (single) misconception regarding whether Elijah could be said to have reincarnated if he and John the Baptist were the same person, if Elijah had never died.
Is that what you want me to address?
The Luke
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Reincarnation (literally, "to be made flesh again"): believed to occur when the soul or spirit, after death of the body, comes back to Earth in another body.
Monotheism: the belief that only one God exists.
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Well, Loco, let's split that hair if that's what you really want to do...
If John the Baptist and Elijah are actually the same person (as Jesus inferred and the other Bible references state explicitly), then we can examine the actual mechanism:
-Elijah ascends into heaven without dying, on a fiery chariot (sigh)
-Hellenized (Greek speaking) Jews come to believe Elijah must return to earth in order to die
-Elijah returns as John the Baptist (and dies)
So how could this occur?
At the transfiguration (sigh) the disciples involved clearly recognised Elijah as Elijah... meaning John the Baptist and Elijah had different appearances. But that's assuming those disciples had actually seen John before his death.
So... either John the Baptist was Elijah in a new body... or John the Baptist was the same physical person as Elijah.
But John the Baptist had an ordinary physical birth (albeit divinely announced).
That leaves reincarnation... John the Baptist was the reincarnation of John the Baptist.
But if you insist upon Elijah having never died; and further insist upon death as a fundamental criteria for reincarnation we have only two alternate options:
-Elijah and John the Baptist are the same physical person
Elijah was taken bodily into heaven as a living physical being, where he continued his physical life without ever dying as some sort of immortal: still eating; shitting; farting and pissing for hundreds of years... but never dying. Then God shrinks Elijah down to a single cell zygote and teleports or implants him into Zachariah's wife Whatshername (St Anne?), where he then grows to maturity and is born a second time without ever dying.
...or...
-Elijah and John the Baptist are two different physical persons
Elijah was taken bodily into heaven as a living physical being, where he continued his physical life without ever dying as some sort of immortal: still eating; shitting; farting and pissing for hundreds of years... but never dying. Then God extracted the soul from Elijah while keeping his physical body alive, then places that soul into the blank body of the newborn John the Baptist. John/Elijah grows to adulthood on Earth, is decapitated and then returns to heaven where God is keeping his still undying body warm for him.
...you're right, either one of those scenarios is much more logical and believable than something as stupid and outlandish as reincarnation.
What was I thinking?
Don't bother to explain it for me... don't bother to think it through for yourself... just ASSERT without explanation that I am wrong, that's more than enough of a reply.
The Luke
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John the Baptist and Elijah are not actually the same person. Jesus never said that John the Baptist and Elijah were literally the same person.
Reincarnation is not in the Bible. You have to die in order to reincarnate. Elijah never died.
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Don't bother to explain it for me... don't bother to think it through for yourself... just ASSERT without explanation that I am wrong, that's more than enough of a reply.
...predictive or what?
The Luke
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This thread is proof that you have no idea what Reincarnation is and what Monotheism is, and that you have no clue what is and what isn't in the Bible.
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This thread is proof that you have no idea what Reincarnation is and what Monotheism is, and that you have no clue what is and what isn't in the Bible.
Then explain it to me... that is, if you actually understand it yourself.
What is the difference between Elijah returning to earth as John the Baptist and ordinary everyday run-of-the-mill reincarnation?
Why isn't Jesus considered a reincarnation of God? After all, Yahweh is god... the Ark of the Covenant is Yahweh incarnate... and Jesus is also God incarnate. Seeing as the Ark came first, by definition Jesus must be a re-incarnation of god.
Detailed explanations please... but feel free to resort to simple dismissal if you don't understand this bullshit either.
The Luke
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Then explain it to me... that is, if you actually understand it yourself.
What is the difference between Elijah returning to earth as John the Baptist and ordinary everyday run-of-the-mill reincarnation?
Why isn't Jesus considered a reincarnation of God? After all, Yahweh is god... the Ark of the Covenant is Yahweh incarnate... and Jesus is also God incarnate. Seeing as the Ark came first, by definition Jesus must be a re-incarnation of god.
Detailed explanations please... but feel free to resort to simple dismissal if you don't understand this bullshit either.
The Luke
I've already done that. See above multiple posts by STella and I, along with definitions of each and everything.
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I've already done that. See above multiple posts by STella and I, along with definitions of each and everything.
But you believe Elijah and John the Baptist are/were the same person?
So if it's not reincarnation, what do you call it? Trans-corporeal-soul-displacement? Retrocarnation? Intracarnation?
Another question, seeing as Jesus actually died, when he comes back to "Rapture" all the Palin-voters... will THAT be reincarnation?
You see I'm still not getting my head around the concept. Is it that you don't believe in reincarnation (despite it being in the New Testament) or that you don't believe it has happened YET? But that Jesus will be reincarnated for the End Times?
Also, if the only criteria is that someone die then "be made flesh" again (didn't see any mention of a second birth in the definition you are insisting upon) does that mean that the risen Jesus is, technically, a reincarnation of Jesus?
Sorry, I realise that's 4 questions:
1-Are John and Elijah the same person, as Jesus inferred?
2-If John isn't a reincarnation of Elijah, but still actually Elijah, exactly what is he? What do you call that?
3-Seeing as Jesus actually died last time, will the Second Coming count as a reincarnation?
4-Was the risen version of Jesus technically a reincarnation? (new body after death)
...all explanations accepted.
But single word answers and dismissals can be used if you don't know yourself.
The Luke
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This thread is proof that you have no idea what Reincarnation is and what Monotheism is, and that you have no clue what is and what isn't in the Bible.
LMAO, you guys get to me sometimes. Seriously, no matter how often you are rebutted you spew the same shit (no offense loco, i like you :D). Seriously, we are operating in reality and you are operating in the realm of faith and failed logic.
like the whole morality argument, if you say god is the only reason people are you moral then the default if god does not exist is that raping, incest, murder are all fine and god is the only thing preventing you from doing so. But you guys will still argue and argue and argue, cherry pick, strawman that ho and so on. I realize it's futile arguing with fundamentalist christians, stella tried to say she is opened minded yet couldn't fathom god not existing ::), but i find it fun.
why dont you try living yourlife without christ, look at reality and say i dont know sometimes, really examine the bible with no prejudice and think, is killing of children good? jesus will accept you if you decide its not the path for you. He will forgive.
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LMAO, you guys get to me sometimes. Seriously, no matter how often you are rebutted you spew the same shit (no offense loco, i like you :D). Seriously, we are operating in reality and you are operating in the realm of faith and failed logic.
like the whole morality argument, if you say god is the only reason people are you moral then the default if god does not exist is that raping, incest, murder are all fine and god is the only thing preventing you from doing so. But you guys will still argue and argue and argue, cherry pick, strawman that ho and so on. I realize it's futile arguing with fundamentalist christians, stella tried to say she is opened minded yet couldn't fathom god not existing ::), but i find it fun.
why dont you try living yourlife without christ, look at reality and say i dont know sometimes, really examine the bible with no prejudice and think, is killing of children good? jesus will accept you if you decide its not the path for you. He will forgive.
I like you too Necrosis (no homo), but what does your post have to do with my reply to Luke? I don't believe in Reincarnation, but unlike Luke, I do know its definition. I know the definition of Monotheism as well. I also read the Bible cover to cover, and I know reincarnation is not in it. Luke pulls this stuff out of his butt.
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But you believe Elijah and John the Baptist are/were the same person?
So if it's not reincarnation, what do you call it? Trans-corporeal-soul-displacement? Retrocarnation? Intracarnation?
Another question, seeing as Jesus actually died, when he comes back to "Rapture" all the Palin-voters... will THAT be reincarnation?
You see I'm still not getting my head around the concept. Is it that you don't believe in reincarnation (despite it being in the New Testament) or that you don't believe it has happened YET? But that Jesus will be reincarnated for the End Times?
Also, if the only criteria is that someone die then "be made flesh" again (didn't see any mention of a second birth in the definition you are insisting upon) does that mean that the risen Jesus is, technically, a reincarnation of Jesus?
Sorry, I realise that's 4 questions:
1-Are John and Elijah the same person, as Jesus inferred?
2-If John isn't a reincarnation of Elijah, but still actually Elijah, exactly what is he? What do you call that?
3-Seeing as Jesus actually died last time, will the Second Coming count as a reincarnation?
4-Was the risen version of Jesus technically a reincarnation? (new body after death)
...all explanations accepted.
But single word answers and dismissals can be used if you don't know yourself.
The Luke
Are you even reading my posts, which are very short btw? I already said No, they are not the same person. The Bible does not say that they are the same person. Reincarnation is not in the Bible, and you have to learn what Reincarnation means.
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Can't believe people are actually arguing about this all... :-\
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I like you too Necrosis (no homo), but what does your post have to do with my reply to Luke? I don't believe in Reincarnation, but unlike Luke, I do know its definition. I know the definition of Monotheism as well. I also read the Bible cover to cover, and I know reincarnation is not in it. Luke pulls this stuff out of his butt.
monotheism is a bit iffy in christianity, the trinity, the stuff luke posted, depends on how you define god as well. For most definitions i would say it fails.
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Can't believe people are actually arguing about this all... :-\
really? i enjoy the debate actually, shit cant be much worse then the 18000 things you have posted on. :D ;D
most of the arguments on this site are ridiculous.
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Can't believe people are actually arguing about this all... :-\
I agree. I try not to involve myself in any bible interpretation debates as I feel it doesn't address the larger issues of the source(s) and validity of the book in the first place. Debating the contents seems incongruous to me.
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most of the arguments on this site are ridiculous.
That's debatable. ;)
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Ever wonder why people say stuff like "Help yourself and God will help you. It's in the Bible" or "Spare the rod, spoil the child. It's in the Bible" or "Don't swim with a full stomach. It's in the Bible." ?
Well, it all gets started with people like Luke who has never read the Bible spreading misinformation like he has in this thread, while others who have never read the Bible either read this stuff, believe it and spread Luke's misinformation.
I just set the record straight since I have read the Bible and continue to read it. That's all.
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Are you even reading my posts, which are very short btw? I already said No, they are not the same person. The Bible does not say that they are the same person. Reincarnation is not in the Bible, and you have to learn what Reincarnation means.
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Back this bullshit up a little...!
The Bible is full of reincarnation.
Yahweh is god... Yahweh is incarnated in a burning bush (1); Yahweh is then incarnated in the Ark of the Covenant (2); but Jesus is also an incarnation of Yahweh (3); Jesus dies and returns in a different body (no one recognises him) (4); and Jesus will be incarnated again in the End Times (5).
That's five reincarnations just for the main character in this poisonous compendium of lies.
Add another one for Elijah/Baptist... (or not if you disagree with Jesus and the Angel of the Lord)
Add two more for Lucifer... who was an archangel; then incarnated as a serpent; then incarnated as Satan to tempt Jesus.
That's eight.
Now read Revelations: it clearly states that after the Apocalypse the dead will rise and be judged (by reincarnated zombie Jesus) at the Judgement Day. So we can add to our list of eight examples, roughly another hundred billion people (total human population since the advent of Homo Sapiens, not sure whether to include Neanderthals or Flores Man, or the Boskopps variants)... and that's assuming the Rapture of Palin-voters comes quick, because human population is growing exponentially.
No reincarnation in the Bible... you mean other than the approx 100,000,000,008 references to reincarnation?
Someone explain this shit to me... please.
The Luke
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Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Back this bullshit up a little...!
The Bible is full of reincarnation.
Yahweh is god... Yahweh is incarnated in a burning bush (1); Yahweh is then incarnated in the Ark of the Covenant (2); but Jesus is also an incarnation of Yahweh (3); Jesus dies and returns in a different body (no one recognises him) (4); and Jesus will be incarnated again in the End Times (5).
That's five reincarnations just for the main character in this poisonous compendium of lies.
Add another one for Elijah/Baptist... (or not if you disagree with Jesus and the Angel of the Lord)
Add two more for Lucifer... who was an archangel; then incarnated as a serpent; then incarnated as Satan to tempt Jesus.
That's eight.
Now read Revelations: it clearly states that after the Apocalypse the dead will rise and be judged (by reincarnated zombie Jesus) at the Judgement Day. So we can add to our list of eight examples, roughly another hundred billion people (total human population since the advent of Homo Sapiens, not sure whether to include Neanderthals or Flores Man, or the Boskopps variants)... and that's assuming the Rapture of Palin-voters comes quick, because human population is growing exponentially.
No reincarnation in the Bible... you mean other than the approx 100,000,000,008 references to reincarnation?
Someone explain this shit to me... please.
The Luke
Stop embarrassing yourself!
Incarnation which literally means embodied in flesh or taking on flesh, refers to the conception and birth of a sentient creature (generally a human) who is the material manifestation of an entity, god or force whose original nature is immaterial.
Reincarnation (literally, "to be made flesh again"): believed to occur when the soul or spirit, after death of the body, comes back to Earth in another body.
Neither Jesus nor the angel said that John the Baptist and Elijah were the same person.
Luke 1:17
17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous葉o make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
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Loco is an ok guy. He realises that evolution is a fact and he isn't as stupid as some of the fundies we have around.
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Stop embarrassing yourself!
Incarnation which literally means embodied in flesh or taking on flesh, refers to the conception and birth of a sentient creature (generally a human) who is the material manifestation of an entity, god or force whose original nature is immaterial.
Reincarnation (literally, "to be made flesh again"): believed to occur when the soul or spirit, after death of the body, comes back to Earth in another body.
Neither Jesus nor the angel said that John the Baptist and Elijah were the same person.
Luke 1:17
17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous葉o make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Okay...
Let's assume for a minute that I concede your assertion regarding Elijah... let's accept your newly tweaked translations of those passages and let's just forget that billions of Christians believed John the Baptist to be Elijah reincarnated/returned for two thousand years...
Let's just concede all of that for the sake of argument...
That still leaves 100,000,000,007 instances of reincarnation in the Bible...? Doesn't it?
The Luke
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Okay...
Let's assume for a minute that I concede your assertion regarding Elijah... let's accept your newly tweaked translations of those passages and let's just forget that billions of Christians believed John the Baptist to be Elijah reincarnated/returned for two thousand years...
Let's just concede all of that for the sake of argument...
That still leaves 100,000,000,007 instances of reincarnation in the Bible...? Doesn't it?
The Luke
Zero.
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Loco is an ok guy. He realises that evolution is a fact and he isn't as stupid as some of the fundies we have around.
No you have it wrong. He believes atheist's ancestors to be apes, not his own ;D
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Revelations