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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: George Whorewell on March 23, 2010, 04:53:37 PM

Title: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: George Whorewell on March 23, 2010, 04:53:37 PM
Over the last few days I have casually tuned in to watch the cable news talking heads. Most of them had a member of Congress or the Senate on to discuss Obama care.

One thing I found fascinating was that there were actually some liberal politicians who went on TV and stated unequivocally that healthcare is a "moral" issue, and that being fiscally irresponsible in order to be morally responsible was warranted. These same politicians also made it pretty clear that they didn't care if voting for Obamacare meant they would be voted out of office.

The thing I find surreal about these statements is that liberals have fought tooth and nail for years to keep "morality" out of every single facet of American life. Hardcore pornography is art, birth control-sex ed and laws that make sodomy illegal are all outside the reach of the government according to the liberal mindset. I actually agree with them ( not about the porn, its filthy, but I have the right to watch it). The rule of law in this country has time and time again put forth the following mantra: In America, you cannot legislate morality. Lets also not forget the rabid liberal challenges made over the separation of church and state. Morality: No! Science: Yes! --

However, not in this case. All of a sudden the continued perpatration of the biggest Ponzi scheme on the planet-- IE the US Government, is now a Moral Issue*** My question is this-- When states go bankrupt, people are being put in jail for not buying health insurance and the lower 20% continues to suck the blood out of this country, will it still be a moral issue then? With the state this country is in today, aren't moral and fiscal responsibility one in the same?
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: drkaje on March 23, 2010, 06:16:57 PM
Know how missionaries go to third world countries and convert natives "for their own good"? Same with this bill.... after seeing the light you'll understand how greedy, selfish, hateful and racist it was to work for yourself and not the greater good of all mankind. :) You'll be broke, of course, but poverty is a small price to pay for the wisdom and compassion which will certainly follow. ;D
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Straw Man on March 23, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Over the last few days I have casually tuned in to watch the cable news talking heads. Most of them had a member of Congress or the Senate on to discuss Obama care.

One thing I found fascinating was that there were actually some liberal politicians who went on TV and stated unequivocally that healthcare is a "moral" issue, and that being fiscally irresponsible in order to be morally responsible was warranted. These same politicians also made it pretty clear that they didn't care if voting for Obamacare meant they would be voted out of office.

The thing I find surreal about these statements is that liberals have fought tooth and nail for years to keep "morality" out of every single facet of American life. Hardcore pornography is art, birth control-sex ed and laws that make sodomy illegal are all outside the reach of the government according to the liberal mindset. I actually agree with them ( not about the porn, its filthy, but I have the right to watch it). The rule of law in this country has time and time again put forth the following mantra: In America, you cannot legislate morality. Lets also not forget the rabid liberal challenges made over the separation of church and state. Morality: No! Science: Yes! --

However, not in this case. All of a sudden the continued perpatration of the biggest Ponzi scheme on the planet-- IE the US Government, is now a Moral Issue*** My question is this-- When states go bankrupt, people are being put in jail for not buying health insurance and the lower 20% continues to suck the blood out of this country, will it still be a moral issue then? With the state this country is in today, aren't moral and fiscal responsibility one in the same?

just wondering - do you think we as a people have a right to set guidelines for how business or industries can conduct business in our country?
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Dos Equis on March 23, 2010, 06:34:34 PM
Over the last few days I have casually tuned in to watch the cable news talking heads. Most of them had a member of Congress or the Senate on to discuss Obama care.

One thing I found fascinating was that there were actually some liberal politicians who went on TV and stated unequivocally that healthcare is a "moral" issue, and that being fiscally irresponsible in order to be morally responsible was warranted. These same politicians also made it pretty clear that they didn't care if voting for Obamacare meant they would be voted out of office.

The thing I find surreal about these statements is that liberals have fought tooth and nail for years to keep "morality" out of every single facet of American life. Hardcore pornography is art, birth control-sex ed and laws that make sodomy illegal are all outside the reach of the government according to the liberal mindset. I actually agree with them ( not about the porn, its filthy, but I have the right to watch it). The rule of law in this country has time and time again put forth the following mantra: In America, you cannot legislate morality. Lets also not forget the rabid liberal challenges made over the separation of church and state. Morality: No! Science: Yes! --

However, not in this case. All of a sudden the continued perpatration of the biggest Ponzi scheme on the planet-- IE the US Government, is now a Moral Issue*** My question is this-- When states go bankrupt, people are being put in jail for not buying health insurance and the lower 20% continues to suck the blood out of this country, will it still be a moral issue then? With the state this country is in today, aren't moral and fiscal responsibility one in the same?

Outstanding commentary George.  That's a great question. 
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: 240 is Back on March 23, 2010, 06:49:22 PM
it's moral vs. utilitarian.  It's as simple as that.

it's absolutely correct to invade another nation for oil, bases, etc - in a utilitarian sense.
It's absolutely evil to war for resources - from a moral standpoint.

With healthcare, it's perfectly fine to look at it both ways too.  To let people die needing medical care, is fine in the util sense.  It's evil in the moral viewpoint.

Repubs seem to use the utilitarian sense.
Dems seem to use the moral viewpoint.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: MM2K on March 23, 2010, 06:55:50 PM
You can and should be able to legislate morality to some extent. Its the morality of the citezines that makes laws enforcable in the first place.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: drkaje on March 23, 2010, 07:16:45 PM
it's moral vs. utilitarian.  It's as simple as that.

it's absolutely correct to invade another nation for oil, bases, etc - in a utilitarian sense.
It's absolutely evil to war for resources - from a moral standpoint.

With healthcare, it's perfectly fine to look at it both ways too.  To let people die needing medical care, is fine in the util sense.  It's evil in the moral viewpoint.

Repubs seem to use the utilitarian sense.
Dems seem to use the moral viewpoint.

This has nothing to do with morals or utility. It's a fundamental difference in views on the government's role and degree of control over American citizens lives.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Dos Equis on March 23, 2010, 07:40:55 PM
This has nothing to do with morals or utility. It's a fundamental difference in views on the government's role and degree of control over American citizens lives.

I agree. 
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Soul Crusher on March 23, 2010, 07:45:41 PM
I agree. 

I just want to be left the hell alone. 
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Straw Man on March 23, 2010, 07:48:32 PM
it's moral vs. utilitarian.  It's as simple as that.

it's absolutely correct to invade another nation for oil, bases, etc - in a utilitarian sense.
It's absolutely evil to war for resources - from a moral standpoint.

With healthcare, it's perfectly fine to look at it both ways too.  To let people die needing medical care, is fine in the util sense.  It's evil in the moral viewpoint.

Repubs seem to use the utilitarian sense.
Dems seem to use the moral viewpoint.

Bill Maher had a funny one liner in his last standup special

The next time we go to war for oil .......get some oil
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: George Whorewell on March 23, 2010, 08:42:32 PM
just wondering - do you think we as a people have a right to set guidelines for how business or industries can conduct business in our country?

Yes Straw I do. The key words in the phrase are "WE AS A PEOPLE". In this piece of legislation, the "PEOPLE" are to be found nowhere. The PEOPLE dont want this shit. And to clarify further, I do not believe that the government on any level in this country should go beyond the authority granted by the constitution to regulate anything.

The biggest issue I have with Obamacare is its timing. Right now our country is in an economic freefall. Shooting a government takeover of healthcare into the vein of the tired, angry and largely broke public is tantamount to execution by lethal injection.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: tu_holmes on March 23, 2010, 08:47:18 PM
When you talk about the people wanting things, do you think the people wanted to free the slaves, or have equal rights for minorities?

I dare say the people didn't want that either, but now you couldn't imagine not having those things.

People often do not want "progressive change", but after it's here, they can't fathom not having them.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Straw Man on March 23, 2010, 08:58:41 PM
Yes Straw I do. The key words in the phrase are "WE AS A PEOPLE". In this piece of legislation, the "PEOPLE" are to be found nowhere. The PEOPLE dont want this shit. And to clarify further, I do not believe that the government on any level in this country should go beyond the authority granted by the constitution to regulate anything.

The biggest issue I have with Obamacare is its timing. Right now our country is in an economic freefall. Shooting a government takeover of healthcare into the vein of the tired, angry and largely broke public is tantamount to execution by lethal injection.

how can you tell me it's unconstitutional in the the first paragraph and then in the second paragraph tell me your primary beef is "timing"

btw - if we've had a government takeover of health care then why did healthcare and related stocks go up the last two days. 
shouldn't investors be bailing out due to the imminent takover?

government takeover is a Frank Lunzt talking point

there is no takeover and I'm not going to wring my hands and worry over Republican predictions that the sky is falling

I'm willing to wait to see what happens (like I have a choice either way) and I guess we'll all know sooner or later who is correct and who is full of shit.....and more likely it will something in between to two
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Benny B on March 23, 2010, 10:14:10 PM
Over the last few days I have casually tuned in to watch the cable news talking heads. Most of them had a member of Congress or the Senate on to discuss Obama care.

One thing I found fascinating was that there were actually some liberal politicians who went on TV and stated unequivocally that healthcare is a "moral" issue, and that being fiscally irresponsible in order to be morally responsible was warranted. These same politicians also made it pretty clear that they didn't care if voting for Obamacare meant they would be voted out of office.

The thing I find surreal about these statements is that liberals have fought tooth and nail for years to keep "morality" out of every single facet of American life. Hardcore pornography is art, birth control-sex ed and laws that make sodomy illegal are all outside the reach of the government according to the liberal mindset. I actually agree with them ( not about the porn, its filthy, but I have the right to watch it). The rule of law in this country has time and time again put forth the following mantra: In America, you cannot legislate morality. Lets also not forget the rabid liberal challenges made over the separation of church and state. Morality: No! Science: Yes! --

However, not in this case. All of a sudden the continued perpatration of the biggest Ponzi scheme on the planet-- IE the US Government, is now a Moral Issue*** My question is this-- When states go bankrupt, people are being put in jail for not buying health insurance and the lower 20% continues to suck the blood out of this country, will it still be a moral issue then? With the state this country is in today, aren't moral and fiscal responsibility one in the same?
Does this long-winded, racist 15 year old fucktard really think anyone is going to read his narcissistic bullshit? Give me a break. Go listen to some Rush Limpballs and SHUT THE FUCK UP.  ::)
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: gcb on March 23, 2010, 11:51:15 PM
I guess they like to pick and choose their battles - leaving someone to die because they can't afford health coverage can rub some people up the wrong way. Obviously some other people think that they somehow deserve to die.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: JohnC1908 on March 24, 2010, 12:01:29 AM
Something else the govt. controls. They've done such a good job with everything else they "regulate/force."
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: gcb on March 24, 2010, 12:07:19 AM
Something else the govt. controls. They've done such a good job with everything else they "regulate/force."

like the recent crash which was caused by unregulation
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: JohnC1908 on March 24, 2010, 12:15:10 AM
like the recent crash which was caused by unregulation
Unregulation caused what?
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: gcb on March 24, 2010, 12:21:54 AM
Unregulation caused what?

unregulated lending to homeowners who couldn't really afford the payments. This brought about by the watering down of protections for re-possessing of properties and such - kind of like we'll have our cake and eat it. If they can't pay we repossess the house - only problem when you have a flood of houses repossessed market value crashes when you try and flood the market with these properties to get back the equity, probably have to make more under-regulated home lones then and put yourself in a bigger hole!!!!
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: JohnC1908 on March 24, 2010, 12:33:30 AM
unregulated lending to homeowners who couldn't really afford the payments. This brought about by the watering down of protections for re-possessing of properties and such - kind of like we'll have our cake and eat it. If they can't pay we repossess the house - only problem when you have a flood of houses repossessed market value crashes when you try and flood the market with these properties to get back the equity, probably have to make more under-regulated home lones then and put yourself in a bigger hole!!!!

I'm not following you at all here. The subprime problem was initiated by the Feds, but the big banks certainly used the ultimatem to unjustly and dangerously enrich themselves. The Feds passed legislation requiring banks to make a required minimum percentage of their loans to sub prime borrowers in an effort to give everyone the "right" to own a home. Had the likes of Franks, Dodd, Clinton and Bush not directed these banks to make these iffy loans, then perhaps we would not have had the real estate meltdown that caused this recession.

Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: gcb on March 24, 2010, 03:20:39 AM
"Observers of the meltdown have cast blame widely. Some have highlighted the practices of subprime lenders and the lack of effective government oversight."

I'm not imagining this - this was on wikipedia - obviously a source of "liberal" bias perhaps.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: drkaje on March 24, 2010, 04:18:49 AM
unregulated lending to homeowners who couldn't really afford the payments. This brought about by the watering down of protections for re-possessing of properties and such - kind of like we'll have our cake and eat it. If they can't pay we repossess the house - only problem when you have a flood of houses repossessed market value crashes when you try and flood the market with these properties to get back the equity, probably have to make more under-regulated home lones then and put yourself in a bigger hole!!!!

So unregulated lending caused people who couldn't afford houses to buy them?! When there was more regulation people cried tougher lending inherently standards were racist and and kept many minorities from the American dream. You can't have things both ways unless the taxpayer pays.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Soul Crusher on March 24, 2010, 05:49:46 AM
"Observers of the meltdown have cast blame widely. Some have highlighted the practices of subprime lenders and the lack of effective government oversight."

I'm not imagining this - this was on wikipedia - obviously a source of "liberal" bias perhaps.

 ::)  ::)

The Federal Govt encouraged this behavior in the name of "fairness".  The Federal Reserve also made the money available for these crazy loans when the writing was on the wall.  The Govt created the home inflation and then allowed the subprime loans which were the only way people could afford the monthly payment to compensate for the inflated prices the govt itself caused. 

 
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: George Whorewell on March 24, 2010, 08:00:32 AM
Does this long-winded, racist 15 year old fucktard really think anyone is going to read his narcissistic bullshit? Give me a break. Go listen to some Rush Limpballs and SHUT THE FUCK UP.  ::)

Obviously someone is reading it because you read it dumbass. I am also older than you, which makes your constant references to my age hysterical. Clearly reading isn't your strong suit. Finally, shouldn't you and the rest of the brothers be on a street corner right now celebrating and dancing the same way you guys did when OJ was acquitted and when the LA riots took place? 

Get off my cock you primate.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Soul Crusher on March 24, 2010, 08:04:14 AM
Obviously someone is reading it because you read it dumbass. I am also older than you, which makes your constant references to my age hysterical. Clearly reading isn't your strong suit. Finally, shouldn't you and the rest of the brothers be on a street corner right now celebrating and dancing the same way you guys did when OJ was acquitted and when the LA riots took place? 

Get off my cock you primate.

Hopefully obama will end up in jail years from now like OJ did. 

As for your thread GW - liberals are emotional beings first and foremost.   
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: George Whorewell on March 24, 2010, 08:07:58 AM
how can you tell me it's unconstitutional in the the first paragraph and then in the second paragraph tell me your primary beef is "timing"

btw - if we've had a government takeover of health care then why did healthcare and related stocks go up the last two days. 
shouldn't investors be bailing out due to the imminent takover?

government takeover is a Frank Lunzt talking point

there is no takeover and I'm not going to wring my hands and worry over Republican predictions that the sky is falling

I'm willing to wait to see what happens (like I have a choice either way) and I guess we'll all know sooner or later who is correct and who is full of shit.....and more likely it will something in between to two




The provision which penalizes people for not purchasing healthcare is unconstitutitional in my opinion. The point that I am trying to make with respect to the legislation as a whole is that right now spending money irresponsibly when the country is in bad shape economically is in itself morally irresponsible. The left is trying to make this a moral issue, but in doing so they are ignoring the fact that their moral crusade is immoral and is going to hurt most Americans now and in the future.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Soul Crusher on March 24, 2010, 08:09:10 AM



The provision which penalizes people for not purchasing healthcare is unconstitutitional in my opinion. The point that I am trying to make with respect to the legislation as a whole is that right now spending money irresponsibly when the country is in bad shape economically is in itself morally irresponsible. The left is trying to make this a moral issue, but in doing so they are ignoring the fact that their moral crusade is immoral and is going to hurt most Americans now and in the future.

Apparently to most libs, bankrupting the nation is perfectly moral too. 
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: JohnC1908 on March 24, 2010, 08:13:13 AM
So unregulated lending caused people who couldn't afford houses to buy them?! When there was more regulation people cried tougher lending inherently standards were racist and and kept many minorities from the American dream. You can't have things both ways unless the taxpayer pays.

Problem is liberals will never take responsibility for their actions. They get their precious govt. to force the private sector to approve loans for their "right" to live in a house. Then big surprise they can't afford it, and of course it's the banks fault.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Soul Crusher on March 24, 2010, 08:14:46 AM
Problem is liberals will never take responsibility for their actions. They get their precious govt. to force the private sector to approve loans for their "right" to live in a house. Then big surprise they can't afford it, and of course it's the banks fault.

The same thing is going to happen with health care now.  Whatever the govt takes over it destroys. 
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: George Whorewell on March 24, 2010, 08:19:32 AM
 Right now it is--- thats forsure...This is one of the few situations where I actually hope I am wrong about everything. I'm not holding my breath though. I didn't like Obama but I wanted him to do well for the sake of the country and he has been a total disaster so far. I hope I am wrong about healthcare also-- but anyone looking at Obamacare objectively has to be worried.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: JohnC1908 on March 24, 2010, 08:21:24 AM
The same thing is going to happen with health care now.  Whatever the govt takes over it destroys. 

Agree, I would like to know one program the federal govt. has run effectively.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Soul Crusher on March 24, 2010, 08:22:39 AM
Agree, I would like to know one program the federal govt. has run effectively.

Ask Straw - he thinks the post office is a massive success and works perfectly. 
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: JohnC1908 on March 24, 2010, 08:25:06 AM
Well the post office lost 7 billion dollars last year. And continues to take more and more money from the reserve with absolutely no intention of paying any of it back. Unfortunately Lysander Spooner was shutdown by the govt many moons ago. If they wouldn't have forced him out, that is one less mess we would be in.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: drkaje on March 24, 2010, 07:04:45 PM
This is a great way to combat the obesity crisis in America. :)
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Skip8282 on March 24, 2010, 07:35:21 PM



The provision which penalizes people for not purchasing healthcare is unconstitutitional in my opinion. The point that I am trying to make with respect to the legislation as a whole is that right now spending money irresponsibly when the country is in bad shape economically is in itself morally irresponsible. The left is trying to make this a moral issue, but in doing so they are ignoring the fact that their moral crusade is immoral and is going to hurt most Americans now and in the future.


What is the talk on this amongst you all in the legal profession?  Do most of you think it's unconstitutional?

I think the mandate's wrong, but to my mind, isn't social security a form of insurance?  (aside from being a huge scheme, of course).

Also, would it be more likely for the Supreme Court to grant cert if there were numerous different court rulings?  I suppose what I'm getting at is, would it be better for them to file suits separately, throughout the states, to get mixed rulings and increase the chance for the SC to hear it? 
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Straw Man on March 24, 2010, 07:54:29 PM
Ask Straw - he thinks the post office is a massive success and works perfectly. 

works fine for me

is it perfect?.....no....but what is

if you have a problem with it then stop using it
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: gcb on March 24, 2010, 10:05:03 PM
Agree, I would like to know one program the federal govt. has run effectively.

Armed forces worked pretty well during World War II
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: gcb on March 24, 2010, 10:10:31 PM
::)  ::)

The Federal Govt encouraged this behavior in the name of "fairness".  The Federal Reserve also made the money available for these crazy loans when the writing was on the wall.  The Govt created the home inflation and then allowed the subprime loans which were the only way people could afford the monthly payment to compensate for the inflated prices the govt itself caused. 

 

Perhaps they encouraged it but then they're not the only ones with gray matter between their ears. All those lenders saw the dollars mate, they didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts - and yes their actions were unregulated. Don't forget the subprime borrowers would have had to more stringent conditions on their loans as well. Still are you saying that wikipedia is lying?
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Benny B on March 24, 2010, 10:19:33 PM
Obviously someone is reading it because you read it dumbass.

That does not mean it was anything worth writing or that anyone gives a shit.

Quote
I am also older than you, which makes your constant references to my age hysterical.
How do you know you are older than me when you don't know how old I am, shithead?

Quote
Clearly reading isn't your strong suit.

I have read and forgotten more books than you have read. My vocabulary and wit would easily bear witness to this fact should I choose to waste my literary skill on your pathetic ass.

Quote
Finally, shouldn't you and the rest of the brothers be on a street corner right now celebrating and dancing the same way you guys did when OJ was acquitted and when the LA riots took place? 

Get off my cock you primate.
LAME
This where the butthurt white trash cave dweller attempts to get "ethnic."hahahaha
You gotta do better than this...just pathetic. "OJ"? "L.A. riots"? You could at least try to bring your lame racist act into the 21st century. Dumb ass, dog hair smelling, white trash, cave dweller.
You invariably would want me "on your cock" but I don't switch hit, f@ggot.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: JohnC1908 on March 24, 2010, 10:52:32 PM
works fine for me

is it perfect?.....no....but what is

if you have a problem with it then stop using it


Amazing that a liberal would be so selfish. It works fine for "you."
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: George Whorewell on March 25, 2010, 09:21:52 AM

That does not mean it was anything worth writing or that anyone gives a shit. ( Obviously you gave a shit enough to respond. Also, the thread is a few pages long and has been viewed a few hundred times. I know that numbers above 10 are complex math for you, but I can assure you, these are bigger numbers than 10.)

How do you know you are older than me when you don't know how old I am, shithead? (Hey retard why don't you use your own logic. How do you know that you are older than me, since you constantly stalk my posts and always respond by first saying that I am younger than you?)
 
I have read and forgotten more books than you have read. My vocabulary and wit would easily bear witness to this fact should I choose to waste my literary skill on your pathetic ass. ( Yeah, I'm sure. Back issues of The Source magazine, the paper back version of "How Stella Got her Groove Back" and Roots by Alex Haley hardly transforms you into Shakespeare. Only a complete and utter moron would try to make the case for their intelligence by referencing how many books they have read.)

LAME
This where the butthurt white trash cave dweller attempts to get "ethnic."hahahaha
You gotta do better than this...just pathetic. "OJ"? "L.A. riots"? You could at least try to bring your lame racist act into the 21st century. Dumb ass, dog hair smelling, white trash, cave dweller.
You invariably would want me "on your cock" but I don't switch hit, f@ggot.



(WOW great comeback. ::) Also, terrific grammar on your part. I'll tell you what Rerun- below I have a modified translation that you will be able to comprehend without a dictionary and 12 hours of time  on your hands to interpret., Ready?....



Ill put this in language you can understand-- Kind of like Ebonics and ape cave dweller speak-- OOGA BOOGA BOOGA  SON. GET OFF MY DICK SON. OOGA BOOGA BOOGA. Get it ?
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: The Showstoppa on March 25, 2010, 09:25:12 AM
Armed forces worked pretty well during World War II

haha, that was a while back.  I think he means what program is currently working.  And having served in the military, there is a shitload of fraud, waste and abuse.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: George Whorewell on March 25, 2010, 09:51:28 AM
What is the talk on this amongst you all in the legal profession?  Do most of you think it's unconstitutional?

I think the mandate's wrong, but to my mind, isn't social security a form of insurance?  (aside from being a huge scheme, of course).

Also, would it be more likely for the Supreme Court to grant cert if there were numerous different court rulings?  I suppose what I'm getting at is, would it be better for them to file suits separately, throughout the states, to get mixed rulings and increase the chance for the SC to hear it? 

The attorneys I know are pretty divided on this issue. Some believe that because the IRS is being put in place to monitor and direct that everyone purchase healthcare or be penalized, the issue (through technicality) becomes one of taxation, not the commerce clause. If that is indeed the case, then there is no way these lawsuits will be successful, at least on that particular section of the bill. Congress can tax and spend to death with pretty much zero judicial interference. I feel that this view is just a smokescreen for three reasons. First of all, from what I can tell, the provision at issue allows people to opt out by paying a onetime penalty ( Like 100 bucks or something). However, if that person becomes sick, they can simply jump back in and buy health insurance at the same rate as everyone else. That's not the way taxes in this country work. While the indigent don't pay taxes, the rest of us can't simply pay a onetime fee and then cease paying taxes until our house is on fire and we need the fire department to show up. Second of all, taxes are deducted from our income, capital gains, etc. However, taxes are not  supposed to be levied against individuals as penalties, they are not punitive in nature and they are not supposed to be issued against a particular group of individuals spanning across all 50 states simply because they don't want to purchase something. Finally, on commerce clause grounds, case law is very cut and dried—Congress can legislate over any activity that effects interstate commerce, including intra state commerce that when taken in the aggregate can have a measured effect on interstate commerce. However, never in the history of this country has one piece of legislation twisted and expanded the notion of interstate commerce into virtual omnipotence. If the government can now mandate every  American purchase health insurance or be penalized, what’s next? Will everyone have to drive a Prius or be penalized because lower emission vehicles reduce global warming ? Does everyone have to become a vegetarian or be penalized because people who eat meat are generally less healthy than vegetarians and therefore are more likely to cause a strain on the healthcare system? The commerce clause can’t be used as a hammer to flatten the individual’s personal liberty.  
There are also 10th amendment issues, 14th amendment issues and the biggest issue nobody seems to be bringing up is whether or not these lawsuits constitute a political question.

Having 100 different state rulings will probably force the Supremes to grant cert., but overall I think the best thing to do would be to roll the dice and just bring it all into the Supreme Court at once to get the issue settled.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: JohnC1908 on March 31, 2010, 06:54:30 PM
Armed forces worked pretty well during World War II

I will concede the military is run much better than other govt. programs BTW...having to go back almost 70 years to prove a point is somewhat scary.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: kcballer on April 01, 2010, 09:55:54 AM
In July, 1798, Congress passed, and President John Adams signed into law “An Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen,” authorizing the creation of a marine hospital service, and mandating privately employed sailors to purchase healthcare insurance.

This legislation also created America’s first payroll tax, as a ship’s owner was required to deduct 20 cents from each sailor’s monthly pay and forward those receipts to the service, which in turn provided injured sailors hospital care. Failure to pay or account properly was discouraged by requiring a law violating owner or ship's captain to pay a 100 dollar fine.

This historical fact demolishes claims of “unprecedented” and "The Constitution nowhere authorizes the United States to mandate, either directly or under threat of penalty...”

Perhaps these somewhat incompetent attorneys general might wish to amend their lawsuits to conform to the 1798 precedent, and demand that the mandate and fines be linked to implementing a federal single payer healthcare insurance plan.

http://open.salon.com/blog/paul_j_orourke/2010/03/24/news_pres_signs_h-care_insurance_mandate-212_years_ago (http://open.salon.com/blog/paul_j_orourke/2010/03/24/news_pres_signs_h-care_insurance_mandate-212_years_ago)
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: MRDUMPLING on April 01, 2010, 10:09:03 AM
In July, 1798, Congress passed, and President John Adams signed into law “An Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen,” authorizing the creation of a marine hospital service, and mandating privately employed sailors to purchase healthcare insurance.

This legislation also created America’s first payroll tax, as a ship’s owner was required to deduct 20 cents from each sailor’s monthly pay and forward those receipts to the service, which in turn provided injured sailors hospital care. Failure to pay or account properly was discouraged by requiring a law violating owner or ship's captain to pay a 100 dollar fine.

This historical fact demolishes claims of “unprecedented” and "The Constitution nowhere authorizes the United States to mandate, either directly or under threat of penalty...”

Perhaps these somewhat incompetent attorneys general might wish to amend their lawsuits to conform to the 1798 precedent, and demand that the mandate and fines be linked to implementing a federal single payer healthcare insurance plan.

http://open.salon.com/blog/paul_j_orourke/2010/03/24/news_pres_signs_h-care_insurance_mandate-212_years_ago (http://open.salon.com/blog/paul_j_orourke/2010/03/24/news_pres_signs_h-care_insurance_mandate-212_years_ago)

You have a point, with the first part, the second not so.  Just because it was 1798 doesn't mean it wasn't unconstitutional.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Soul Crusher on April 01, 2010, 10:10:07 AM
You have a point, with the first part, the second not so.  Just because it was 1798 doesn't mean it wasn't unconstitutional.

That did not apply to the entire population. 
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: kcballer on April 01, 2010, 10:21:07 AM
You have a point, with the first part, the second not so.  Just because it was 1798 doesn't mean it wasn't unconstitutional.

When a founding father who helped write the constitution passes into a law a mandate for private citizens to purchase insurance i can guess he figured it was constitutional.  Just as i figure Obama and his team believe it's constitutional now. 
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: kcballer on April 01, 2010, 10:25:29 AM
That did not apply to the entire population. 

That is your argument in rebuttal?  really?  That's weak dude.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: George Whorewell on April 01, 2010, 12:07:31 PM
LOL @ KC

That's the only rebuttal that matters. Pulling up an obscure law from 200+ years ago to  rationalize the unconstitutional nature of Obamacare is really grasping for straws.  Obamacare is unconstitutional precisely because it applies to everybody. The law you described only applied to shipowners (with respect to penalties) and sailors. By posting this practically ancient law to support your argument, you unintentionally demonstrated how weak your argument is.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: The Showstoppa on April 01, 2010, 12:13:11 PM
Excellent commentary and question George.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: MRDUMPLING on April 01, 2010, 12:31:12 PM
When a founding father who helped write the constitution passes into a law a mandate for private citizens to purchase insurance i can guess he figured it was constitutional.  Just as i figure Obama and his team believe it's constitutional now. 

The IRS wasn't enforcing the rules and penalties either which George has already addressed and is my main concern over the bill.  The bill was too much too fast; there are many things which could have been done first in smaller increments for healthcare reform.
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: kcballer on April 01, 2010, 01:54:16 PM
LOL @ KC

That's the only rebuttal that matters. Pulling up an obscure law from 200+ years ago to  rationalize the unconstitutional nature of Obamacare is really grasping for straws.  Obamacare is unconstitutional precisely because it applies to everybody. The law you described only applied to shipowners (with respect to penalties) and sailors. By posting this practically ancient law to support your argument, you unintentionally demonstrated how weak your argument is.

Oh please, a mandate to buy insurance is a mandate to buy insurance.  If it's applicable to some and not unconstitutional then it can be applicable to all under the same reasoning.

Under your definition a government or state could ban all firearms because it's not unconstitutional if it only effects certain people right? 
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: Soul Crusher on April 01, 2010, 01:55:15 PM
Oh please, a mandate to buy insurance is a mandate to buy insurance.  If it's applicable to some and not unconstitutional then it can be applicable to all under the same reasoning.

Under your definition a government or state could ban all firearms because it's not unconstitutional if it only effects certain people right? 

KC - what about a mandate to purchase firearms?   
Title: Re: The liberal mindset on healthcare
Post by: kcballer on April 01, 2010, 02:03:32 PM
KC - what about a mandate to purchase firearms?   

If it was passed i don't think it would be unconstitutional.