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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: mesmorph78 on April 05, 2010, 10:33:16 AM

Title: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 05, 2010, 10:33:16 AM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/ronwoning.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/ronowningeveryone-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on April 05, 2010, 10:37:07 AM
Great thread and I agree. 8 time (atleast) Mr Olympia.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: tendonitis on April 05, 2010, 10:38:10 AM
insane pic
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: L00n on April 05, 2010, 10:58:02 AM
insane pic


x100000000
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on April 05, 2010, 10:59:57 AM
was! was! was!  IS!  get it straight
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: The Showstoppa on April 05, 2010, 11:02:29 AM
Look at how small Ronnie's noggin looks between those two?   And his is probably slighly larger than normal.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: _bruce_ on April 05, 2010, 11:05:09 AM
Monster - way better proportioned than the 2 wiggas
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: delta9mda on April 05, 2010, 11:32:37 AM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/ronwoning.jpg)
someone please photoshop this one. :-*
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 05, 2010, 11:33:57 AM
he just looks ridiculous.... arms chest delts traps....
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Option D on April 05, 2010, 11:39:05 AM
he just looks ridiculous.... arms chest delts traps....

Yeah..man that shit is insane...he looks not human
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 05, 2010, 11:42:24 AM
no one is ven close... and i cant seeing anyone ever surpassing that
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 05, 2010, 11:43:29 AM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/ronowningeveryone-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: French on April 05, 2010, 11:45:58 AM
Flex had bigger arms

Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Option D on April 05, 2010, 11:46:49 AM
Flex had bigger arms




was flex on TEH OIL?
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 05, 2010, 12:37:56 PM
Flex had bigger arms




Uh no not even with oil different pose
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Boost on April 05, 2010, 01:04:03 PM
 :o
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 05, 2010, 01:08:34 PM
Flex had bigger arms




Uh no not even with oil different pose
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: HTexan on April 05, 2010, 01:11:52 PM
ronnie is the man
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 05, 2010, 01:12:41 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/Flex_Wheeler_023.jpg)

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/RonnieColeman36.jpg)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Boost on April 05, 2010, 01:18:41 PM
 8)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: French on April 05, 2010, 01:23:29 PM
 :)

Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: AC Slater on April 05, 2010, 01:26:02 PM
dorian nuthuggers think dorian was better  ::)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: BIG_STI on April 05, 2010, 01:32:43 PM
fag thread
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: affeman on April 05, 2010, 01:36:35 PM
There was Ronnie.....and then there was everyone else. 8)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Hulkotron on April 05, 2010, 01:38:22 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/ronowningeveryone-1.jpg)

Who is the Little Warrior mean-mugging in the back there between Shawn and Milos?
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on April 05, 2010, 01:51:04 PM
Who is the Little Warrior mean-mugging in the back there between Shawn and Milos?

I think it's Rodney St cloud
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: beefcakeblake on April 05, 2010, 02:09:46 PM
dorian nuthuggers think dorian was better  ::)

wtf we dont think we know ;D ;D 
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Immortal_Technique on April 05, 2010, 02:30:51 PM
Ronnie has no calves or traps?! Bwaha

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=326541.0;attach=365866;image)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: RocketSwitch625 on April 05, 2010, 02:37:04 PM
Isn't it ironic how the name Dorian Yates ALWAYS comes up in a Ronnie Coleman thread? ;D

Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: beefcakeblake on April 05, 2010, 02:44:01 PM
Isn't it ironic how the name Dorian Yates ALWAYS comes up in a Ronnie Coleman thread? ;D



I know the ronnie nut huggers are always bringing him up.

I don't know if they wanna start shit or watever but it's annoying.

If dorian is as bad as they make him to be why do they bring him up not flex or jay, its because they know that dorians the one guy that would knock ronnie off. ;D
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: affeman on April 05, 2010, 02:45:43 PM
Isn't it ironic how the name Dorian Yates ALWAYS comes up in a Ronnie Coleman thread? ;D



It is ironic, considering they are not even in the same league.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: beefcakeblake on April 05, 2010, 02:48:40 PM
It is ironic, considering they are not even in the same league.

I agree dorian and the 90s were way better then ronnie had to offer.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: RocketSwitch625 on April 05, 2010, 03:03:28 PM
All this crap about Coleman being "the man". If he really was the man how come it took him so long to start winning contests as a pro? And how come he only started to get better when he started brown-nosing with Chad Nichols? Dorian Yates never needed a guru like the rest of the pros.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Wingnut32 on April 05, 2010, 03:05:48 PM
Ronnie has small traps.   ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: KevinP85 on April 05, 2010, 03:12:23 PM
Dorian's physique was ugly, can't see how many people can be a fan of his.

Flex, Ray,Levrone, Ronnie, and even Nasser all looked better IMO.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: RocketSwitch625 on April 05, 2010, 03:18:16 PM
Dorian's physique was ugly, can't see how many people can be a fan of his.

Flex, Ray,Levrone, Ronnie, and even Nasser all looked better IMO.

That's quite funny, I just posted a picture in another thread which proves you to be totally wrong.



(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=69359.0;attach=365883;image)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Ursus on April 05, 2010, 03:19:36 PM
It is Richard Jones in the background.

He was sub 200lbs.

Think he retired.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Parker on April 05, 2010, 03:20:24 PM
Who is the Little Warrior mean-mugging in the back there between Shawn and Milos?
Thats Richard "Prettyboy" Jones...the ladies on here can't get enough of him, and when I say ladies, I mean real women, like Babydoc, Dina, etc.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: KevinP85 on April 05, 2010, 03:21:13 PM
That's quite funny, I just posted a picture in another thread which proves you to be totally wrong.



(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=69359.0;attach=365883;image)


Again, it's MY OPINION, what part do you not get???

So you would rather have Dorians' physique over Ray, Levrone, Wheeler??? Interesting!
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: KevinP85 on April 05, 2010, 03:22:23 PM
Thats Richard "Prettyboy" Jones...the ladies on here can't get enough of him, and when I say ladies, I mean real women, like Babydoc, Dina, etc.


He's a nice guy, exchanged a few words back in the day when I got into bbing.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: RocketSwitch625 on April 05, 2010, 03:23:26 PM

Again, it's MY OPINION, what part do you not get???

So you would rather have Dorians' physique over Ray, Levrone, Wheeler??? Interesting!

Yeah 'cause like Yates I'm an Anglo Saxon white boy.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: KevinP85 on April 05, 2010, 03:27:39 PM
Yeah 'cause like Yates I'm an Anglo Saxon white boy.


So I'm I, but I still prefer Wheeler, Ray, Levrone, etc...

The only "white physiques," I find that are exceptions are Paris, Labrada, Arnold of course, and some others I can't think of.

Yates, I respect for the work ethic, but I still think his physique is ugly! I can't believe I'll say this but I think Nasser is better than Yates in every way except back. That's it!  :-X
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: RocketSwitch625 on April 05, 2010, 03:31:11 PM

So I'm I, but I still prefer Wheeler, Ray, Levrone, etc...

The only "white physiques," I find that are exceptions are Paris, Labrada, Arnold of course, and some others I can't think of.

Yates, I respect for the work ethic, but I still think his physique is ugly! I can't believe I'll say this but I think Nasser is better than Yates in every way except back. That's it!  :-X

It's obvious you prefer the ironing board with abs look.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: beefcakeblake on April 05, 2010, 03:38:57 PM
Yeah 'cause like Yates I'm an Anglo Saxon white boy.

true I like bbs I can relate to, the black guys just have diff genitics then i do( exept ronnie)  so its weird admiring some ones physique  when their so much diff, plus most black bb look soft for some reason I think the  grainy power lifter look that dorian has is the best.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 05, 2010, 05:01:23 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/colda.jpg)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 05, 2010, 05:05:32 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/ddd0133.jpg)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 05, 2010, 05:08:20 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/colmanhuuuuge.jpg)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Mr. Magoo on April 05, 2010, 05:08:34 PM
:)



fuck  :o
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Shockwave on April 05, 2010, 06:14:03 PM
Cmon guys, lets keep the Dorian shit outta here.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=326541.0;attach=365867;image)
Circa 98, Ronnies best... shredded, huge, Dry to the bone.

*Edit* 96
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: SomeKindofMonster on April 06, 2010, 12:05:05 AM
Yeah..man that shit is insane...he looks not human

True Story...

Cutler walked up to Milos after or during that photoshoot
and said something to the effect...
"How in the hell are any of us going to beat that".

Kind of the same effect Yates 269 B&W pics had on Paul Dillet.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: TRIX on April 06, 2010, 12:44:40 AM
(http://www.bodybuilding-pics.com/42/images/Ronnie_Coleman_photo468.jpg)
(http://www.bodybuilding-pics.com/42/images/Ronnie_Coleman_photo469.jpg)
(http://www.bodybuilding-pics.com/42/images/Ronnie_Coleman_photo470.jpg)
(http://www.bodybuilding-pics.com/42/images/Ronnie_Coleman_photo471.jpg)
(http://www.bodybuilding-pics.com/42/images/Ronnie_Coleman_photo472.jpg)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 06, 2010, 01:33:00 AM
Greatest of all time
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: clued-up on April 06, 2010, 01:45:03 AM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/ronowningeveryone-1.jpg)

Look at the silly white guys trying to hang with Coleman..  misguided fools. 
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: tbombz on April 06, 2010, 10:27:06 AM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/ddd0133.jpg)

hahaha!! nice!!  ;D
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: rccs on April 06, 2010, 10:38:44 AM
Günther is dwarfing everyone on those pics!
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Shockwave on April 06, 2010, 11:30:10 AM
Günther is dwarfing everyone on those pics!
He really is. But those are shirted gym pics, so....
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on April 06, 2010, 12:29:41 PM
Cmon guys, lets keep the Dorian shit outta here.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=326541.0;attach=365867;image)
Circa 98, Ronnies best... shredded, huge, Dry to the bone.

That's actually 1996 and he looked fantastic that year too
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Shockwave on April 06, 2010, 01:21:51 PM
That's actually 1996 and he looked fantastic that year too
I edited it.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 06, 2010, 03:02:32 PM
Günther is dwarfing everyone on those pics!

get your eyes checked
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: TRIX on April 06, 2010, 03:14:24 PM
The great ones come in threes--tenors, amigos, wise men, stooges--but they usually don't weigh a combined 935 pounds. Ronnie was 315, Gunter 330 and Jay 290--and that was before lunch. Besides bodyweight totals, the three wide men shared glares, chides, passive-aggressive quips and guarded forecasts. Like planets suddenly sprung from their gravitational tethers, Coleman, Cutler and Schlierkamp warily orbited each other. The gamesmanship might have been subtle, but the tension was obvious.


gunter 330 lbs ronnie 315 lbs jay 290 lbs at that photoshoot
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: rccs on April 07, 2010, 06:13:37 AM
get your eyes checked
I don't need to get my eyes checked... And I'll tell you more, there was this competition that Günther won against Coleman where he outsized and outweight Coleman by a mille... go find some info about that, I am too lazy to put a link here...
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Immortal_Technique on April 07, 2010, 07:20:01 AM
Haha epic novice reference. Yes Gunther is taller and therefore heavier but anyone can tell you who is thicker.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 07, 2010, 10:09:04 AM
Haha epic novice reference. Yes Gunther is taller and therefore heavier but anyone can tell you who is thicker.


ha ha so true
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: RocketSwitch625 on April 07, 2010, 01:16:11 PM
Ronnie wasn't the man at all because no man would ever go on stage looking like this:


(http://muscletime.com/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&func=watermark&catid=43&id=42796&Itemid=202)

TWAT
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Parker on April 07, 2010, 01:32:26 PM
I don't need to get my eyes checked... And I'll tell you more, there was this competition that Günther won against Coleman where he outsized and outweight Coleman by a mille... go find some info about that, I am too lazy to put a link here...
And do you remember the pic of both of them in grey shirts doing a FDB and Gunter is closer to the Camera, and Ronnie not only outmassed him, but he had detail in his arms that Gunter would dream to have.

In the end, Gunter had a better smile, if that counts for anything.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Immortal_Technique on April 07, 2010, 02:16:31 PM
Ronnie wasn't the man at all because no man would ever go on stage looking like this:


(http://muscletime.com/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&func=watermark&catid=43&id=42796&Itemid=202)

TWAT

Hmm, nothing you post has anything to do with anything.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: RocketSwitch625 on April 07, 2010, 03:27:00 PM
Hmm, nothing you post has anything to do with anything.

You mean anything I post that makes your hero look stupid gets right up your nose.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Shockwave on April 07, 2010, 05:34:14 PM
And do you remember the pic of both of them in grey shirts doing a FDB and Gunter is closer to the Camera, and Ronnie not only outmassed him, but he had detail in his arms that Gunter would dream to have.

In the end, Gunter had a better smile, if that counts for anything.
Make no mistake, it does.
plus hes white.  ;D
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 07, 2010, 05:36:02 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/coleman.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/colemadamn.jpg)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: mesmorph78 on April 07, 2010, 05:41:03 PM
you mean this one parker

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/colemanimpressivearms.jpg)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Wiggs on April 07, 2010, 05:44:00 PM
you mean this one parker

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/colemanimpressivearms.jpg)

That Ronnie shot is one of the best arms shots of all time.  Ronnie looks like granite, Heath looks like plastic.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: affeman on April 07, 2010, 06:25:37 PM
That Ronnie shot is one of the best arms shots of all time.  Ronnie looks like granite, Heath looks like plastic.

That's Gunter not Heath you moron ::)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: TRIX on April 08, 2010, 12:56:47 AM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/colemanimpressivearms.jpg)
gunter is further in front also... colemans arms are 21.5 inches there
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Wiggs on April 08, 2010, 01:01:09 AM
That's Gunter not Heath you moron ::)

No shit...I'm throwing out the fact the people keep saying Heath's arms are the best of all time.
I can tell the difference between a negro and a cock...Jesus ::)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Hulkster on April 08, 2010, 07:05:59 PM
Dorian Yates never needed a guru like the rest of the pros.

yes, because he got to look like this without the help of a guru..

 ::)

maybe if Yates had a guru, he wouldn't have ruined his arm so early in his career..
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Shockwave on April 08, 2010, 08:08:09 PM
yes, because he got to look like this without the help of a guru..

 ::)

maybe if Yates had a guru, he wouldn't have ruined his arm so early in his career..
Sad, you have to bring your tired carefully selected pics into a thread praising Ronnie.......
Dorian in your head much?
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Captain Equipoise on April 08, 2010, 08:14:18 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/ronowningeveryone-1.jpg)

Look at the silly white guys trying to hang with Coleman..  misguided fools. 

Yeah, hillarious Gunter is 2x as wide as Ronnie in that photo..
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Hulkster on April 08, 2010, 08:23:14 PM
Sad, you have to bring your tired carefully selected pics into a thread praising Ronnie.......
Dorian in your head much?

sad that the nuthuggers try and bash ronnie in said thread simply because ronnie had a guru, something that dorian would have benefitted greatly from.. ::)

the nuthuggers start it, the ronnie fans finish it. as always.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Captain Equipoise on April 08, 2010, 08:25:27 PM
sad that the nuthuggers try and bash ronnie in said thread simply because ronnie had a guru, something that dorian would have benefitted greatly from.. ::)

the nuthuggers start it, the ronnie fans finish it. as always.

Seeing as how Dorian won 6 Mr.O's I don't see how it mattered that he didn't have a guru...

Dorian just saved a good $20,000 a year vs. Ronnie
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: TRIX on April 08, 2010, 08:29:41 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/ronowningeveryone-1.jpg)

brutal not seeing/knowing he is closer to the camera
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Hulkster on April 08, 2010, 08:31:30 PM
Quote
Seeing as how Dorian won 6 Mr.O's I don't see how it mattered that he didn't have a guru...

oh it mattered. he won 6 mr. O's but only 2 of them with two decent arms. Perhaps with someone monitoring his training he might not have gone crazy and trained way too heavy precontest and tore his biceps muscle so early on in his career.

not to mention by 94 and onwards everyone was saying he was getting gifts, something that most say holds true today.

the point being that maybe if dorian had had a guru, he might have looked a lot better for most of his wins than he did.

not to mention that ronnie won 8 olympias plus an AC win, neither of which dorian was capable of doing. :P ;D
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Captain Equipoise on April 08, 2010, 08:31:34 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/ronowningeveryone-1.jpg)

brutal not seeing/knowing he is closer to the camera

Yeah that half an inch really makes a huge difference  ::)  ::)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: TRIX on April 08, 2010, 08:32:35 PM
gunter was unfortunately all drugs'

(http://www.venicemuscleman.com/pro_bodybuilders_gallery/images/with_gunter_schlierkampf.jpg)
obviously minus the myspace angle guy, gunter OFF is small
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Shockwave on April 08, 2010, 08:33:01 PM
sad that the nuthuggers try and bash ronnie in said thread simply because ronnie had a guru, something that dorian would have benefitted greatly from.. ::)

the nuthuggers start it, the ronnie fans finish it. as always.
In case you didnt read the thread, a different Ronnie fan brought Dorian in first, you fucking moron.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: TRIX on April 08, 2010, 08:39:20 PM
(http://muscletime.com/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&func=watermark&catid=10956&id=42068&Itemid=202)

ronnie was more heavily muscled for his frame.. gunter had no back
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Hulkster on April 08, 2010, 08:54:15 PM
In case you didnt read the thread, a different Ronnie fan brought Dorian in first, you fucking moron.

how ironic that someone stupid enough to insist dorian was better than ronnie is calling me a moron LOL

 ::)

learn something about physiques and you might wake up to how inferior dorian was compared to ronnie's best..

after all, he was the Man.
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: beefcakeblake on April 09, 2010, 07:10:03 PM
how ironic that someone stupid enough to insist dorian was better than ronnie is calling me a moron LOL

 ::)

learn something about physiques and you might wake up to how inferior dorian was compared to ronnie's best..

after all, he was the Man.

your such a dingle berry
this is a lot better then one you posted


(http://www.schwarzenegger.it/mro/yates/dy153.jpg)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: Hulkster on April 09, 2010, 11:30:29 PM
a lot better? hell no.

that shot I posted is from 1993, dorian's pre tear best ever shape.

but as always, whenever dorian gets owned by ronnie, which is almost all the time, the nuthuggers have to pipe up and say it was a bad shot, even if it was a great shot of his best ever contest day physique... ::) ::)

they say the shot is bad rather than realize the physique was bad (in comparison to ronnie's)

 ::)
Title: Re: Ronnie was the man
Post by: beefcakeblake on April 10, 2010, 05:28:21 PM
a lot better? hell no.

that shot I posted is from 1993, dorian's pre tear best ever shape.

but as always, whenever dorian gets owned by ronnie, which is almost all the time, the nuthuggers have to pipe up and say it was a bad shot, even if it was a great shot of his best ever contest day physique... ::) ::)

they say the shot is bad rather than realize the physique was bad (in comparison to ronnie's)

 ::)


no dude in the shot you put Dorian looks like a douche monstrosity even by himself Ive seen better pics of him doing the most muscular then that.