Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: El Diablo Blanco on May 19, 2010, 03:36:17 PM
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You always hear steroid abusers claim they needed to take the juice to surpass their natural limit. what is this limit, when does it happen and how do you know it has happened?
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It is ShipSekki.
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You always hear steroid abusers claim they needed to take the juice to surpass their natural limit. what is this limit, when does it happen and how do you know it has happened?
About 150 ejaculations a day is the naTural limit.
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My natural limit was exactly 208 pounds :D
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This was from Mr GBIII....5'10" 178lbs....could've prob shed another 5lbs of fat to be shredded. I have avg structure, but even with better structure, I doubt I'd be more than 10lbs heavier without gear.
(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk59/dovidov1/100_2233-1.jpg)
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This was from Mr GBIII....5'10" 178lbs....could've prob shed another 5lbs of fat to be shredded. I have avg structure, but even with better structure, I doubt I'd be more than 10lbs heavier without gear.
(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk59/dovidov1/100_2233-1.jpg)
good legs from the side,abs 2...
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This was from Mr GBIII....5'10" 178lbs....could've prob shed another 5lbs of fat to be shredded. I have avg structure, but even with better structure, I doubt I'd be more than 10lbs heavier without gear.
(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk59/dovidov1/100_2233-1.jpg)
pretty good dov, you mind me asking how old you are?
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Here are pics I took two weeks after the pics I took for GB3. This is MY natural limit, or damn near close. 5'10 and 175 here. I've tried to put on more but after a point I can't put on lean mass without putting on enough fat for me to tolerate.
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You never ever reach your natural limit. Eventough no huge mass gains can be expected after several years, but someone who busted his ass in the gym for 20 years will look different then someone who busted his ass in the gym for 10 years, period.
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You never ever reach your natural limit. Eventough no huge mass gains can be expected after several years, but someone who busted his ass in the gym for 20 years will look different then someone who busted his ass in the gym for 10 years, period.
Yeah, that's a given but I think the question is pretty generalized in terms of of actual SIZE, not look.
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(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=331257.0;attach=372171;image)
Very handsome man.
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The natural limit would take nearly a lifetime to determine...
And that limit varies from individual to individual. So there isn't universal limit
not many people have reached their natural limit becaus either they are too lazy to put in the hard work
or they start to use drugs. For me personally I have 3 or more decades to find out hopefully.
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I got to 200lbs. sub 10% BF I don't think I could have gained much more...
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(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=331257.0;attach=372171;image)
Very handsome man.
Looking good man
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Croach claims he's natural...if so, he's pretty big.
Sev is a natural. If he's the natural limit...we should all be so lucky.
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Here are pics I took two weeks after the pics I took for GB3. This is MY natural limit, or damn near close. 5'10 and 175 here. I've tried to put on more but after a point I can't put on lean mass without putting on enough fat for me to tolerate.
look good bro.
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Hershel walker is the limit
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Hershel walker is the limit
Hershel Walker is the natural exception....
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I believe people greatly underestimate their true natural limits! Some go on juice before they really reach it.
It takes years to really discover one's true natural limit, maybe 20 years or more... Not 5 years like some may be claiming!
One of the best natural bodybuilders that I've ever know is Sean Sullivan a guy who used to help me prep for shows... Sean's been competing since 1981, and one of his BEST ever showing was in 2006, he still finds he makes great improvements today both in the gym and in the way he looks!
This is a sport of consistency and lots ad lots of patience!
For those who are posting up pictures, you all look great, and even though I don't know much about you I think you are all cutting yourself short if you are claiming thats your natural limit!
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i'm so damn narrow. i have naturally twig arms, tiny wrists. I have no clue what my natural limit is... but it's impossible for me to break 180 without being a fatass. :(
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You always hear steroid abusers claim they needed to take the juice to surpass their natural limit. what is this limit, when does it happen and how do you know it has happened?
When you look at the mirrow and you dont like what you see
WOOOSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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Croach claims he's natural...if so, he's pretty big.
Sev is a natural. If he's the natural limit...we should all be so lucky.
is that a joke, sev used tons of juice and STILL has a terrible body
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there is no natural limit it just takes longer to get power
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Hatfield didn't believe in natural limitations...
maybe he thought his students were drug free.
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I'm 5'7.5 200 lbs But around 13 - 14% bodyfat. 21 years old. You just gotta eat AND YOU WILL GROW. though in one years time i'm only like 5kg heavier which kinda sucks
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I don't think I've seen a natural over 195 in ripped condition.
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Why is it people think they've reached their ''natural limit''?
Have you really gotten to the point you can't be any better without drugs?
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probably sevataste, he got pretty huge
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I don't think I've seen a natural over 195 in ripped condition.
I have!
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You always hear steroid abusers claim they needed to take the juice to surpass their natural limit. what is this limit, when does it happen and how do you know it has happened?
Muscle mass wise it's something that happens in your 40's, if you have started training young that is.
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SF1900 = Natural Freak! :D
Actually, this is not the case. Unfortunately, I do believe everyone has a natural limit. Eventually, you will hit your limit and not make much gains after that. I mean, if this wasn't the case, wouldn't we all look like Ronnie Coleman? There is definitely a genetic limit on what someone can achieve.
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This was from Mr GBIII....5'10" 178lbs....could've prob shed another 5lbs of fat to be shredded. I have avg structure, but even with better structure, I doubt I'd be more than 10lbs heavier without gear.
(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk59/dovidov1/100_2233-1.jpg)
/thread.
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Ask gh15 ;)
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The natural limit would take nearly a lifetime to determine...
And that limit varies from individual to individual. So there isn't universal limit
not many people have reached their natural limit becaus either they are too lazy to put in the hard work
or they start to use drugs. For me personally I have 3 or more decades to find out hopefully.
This.
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i'm so damn narrow. i have naturally twig arms, tiny wrists. I have no clue what my natural limit is... but it's impossible for me to break 180 without being a fatass. :(
Dude 180 is HUUUGGE for a lean natural. This year I've been stoked to go from 150 to 155. Granted I'm only 5'8" but still you have gotten your head twisted by all of the drug abusers. They make it very hard to be happy with what is naturally possible.
Lets just hope that safe muscle enhancement comes out before we get old and gray and can't even hit our natural limits anymore.
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Dude 180 is HUUUGGE for a lean natural. This year I've been stoked to go from 150 to 155. Granted I'm only 5'8" but still you have gotten your head twisted by all of the drug abusers. They make it very hard to be happy with what is naturally possible.
Lets just hope that safe muscle enhancement comes out before we get old and gray and can't even hit our natural limits anymore.
But what about Flex Wheeler's body fat measurement?
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I guess you mean Flex's 0% right? That's only possible when you are 6 feet under :> The lowest I've ever heard of was Clarence Bass at 2.4%
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I guess you mean Flex's 0% right? That's only possible when you are 6 feet under :> The lowest I've ever heard of was Clarence Bass at 2.4%
Jim Quinn. Gold's.
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I've found I've reached a point "drug free/Naturally' where I don't nessisary get heavy or bigger.. but my muscle quality density and hardness improves each year. My contest weight has stays pretty much constant (within a 5 pound range for the past 10 years or so) but I look 20pounds heavy than I do in the begining, due to that "muscle maturity" I'm talking about.
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Here are pics I took two weeks after the pics I took for GB3. This is MY natural limit, or damn near close. 5'10 and 175 here. I've tried to put on more but after a point I can't put on lean mass without putting on enough fat for me to tolerate.
Epic black velvet picture in the background,Dr.Spoc ears,and cargo pants from the Salvation army :)
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I've found I've reached a point "drug free/Naturally' where I don't nessisary get heavy or bigger.. but my muscle quality density and hardness improves each year. My contest weight has stays pretty much constant (within a 5 pound range for the past 10 years or so) but I look 20pounds heavy than I do in the begining, due to that "muscle maturity" I'm talking about.
I agree with this statement. I've doing this just shy of 30 years and while my bodyweight has remained somewhat consistent but my overall look has changed as well.
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That it takes decades to reach your so-called natural limit in muscle mass is just so much bullshit. The absolute majority of muscle you're ever going to build is built in the first couple of years of intelligent lifting and eating. Let's say something like at least 90% in the first 2 years. The next 2 or so years you gain the next 8-9% and you're basically THERE. For all intents and purposes you're for sure finished growing after less than 5 years of reasonably intelligent lifting. What a few posters have said here, that they're not really growing much after decades is true. "Muscle quality" may improve, though that's pretty vague and subjective term. Muscle growth isn't a slow process where you add a steady 1-2lbs a year for decades. It comes in bursts and drug free maximum muscle potential is realized very quickly.
I know people who have lifted clean for over 20 years and claim they're still growing and "progressing". I wonder how they measure this "growth" since they've weighed the exact same for 2 decades, and in many cases they're actually lighter and weaker than they were in their 20s for example.
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Spot on post Van!
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That it takes decades to reach your so-called natural limit in muscle mass is just so much bullshit. The absolute majority of muscle you're ever going to build is built in the first couple of years of intelligent lifting and eating. Let's say something like at least 90% in the first 2 years. The next 2 or so years you gain the next 8-9% and you're basically THERE. For all intents and purposes you're for sure finished growing after less than 5 years of reasonably intelligent lifting. What a few posters have said here, that they're not really growing much after decades is true. "Muscle quality" may improve, though that's pretty vague and subjective term. Muscle growth isn't a slow process where you add a steady 1-2lbs a year for decades. It comes in bursts and drug free maximum muscle potential is realized very quickly.
I know people who have lifted clean for over 20 years and claim they're still growing and "progressing". I wonder how they measure this "growth" since they've weighed the exact same for 2 decades, and in many cases they're actually lighter and weaker than they were in their 20s for example.
Beat me to it..
I'd have to agree. I've been lifting roughly 10yrs and I would have to say I am pretty much maxed out naturally. Now, I can gain total body weight and gain muscle easily, but to do so and keep the same body fat percentage would be very hard to say the least.
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That it takes decades to reach your so-called natural limit in muscle mass is just so much bullshit. The absolute majority of muscle you're ever going to build is built in the first couple of years of intelligent lifting and eating. Let's say something like at least 90% in the first 2 years. The next 2 or so years you gain the next 8-9% and you're basically THERE. For all intents and purposes you're for sure finished growing after less than 5 years of reasonably intelligent lifting. What a few posters have said here, that they're not really growing much after decades is true. "Muscle quality" may improve, though that's pretty vague and subjective term. Muscle growth isn't a slow process where you add a steady 1-2lbs a year for decades. It comes in bursts and drug free maximum muscle potential is realized very quickly.
I know people who have lifted clean for over 20 years and claim they're still growing and "progressing". I wonder how they measure this "growth" since they've weighed the exact same for 2 decades, and in many cases they're actually lighter and weaker than they were in their 20s for example.
Maybe they are doing something wrong, I've seen people progress as the years went by, tried different things and BOOM 15-20 more lbs! I'm sorry I disagree with you on most of your post, but I do agree you make A LOT of gains in the very beginning its almost the foundation being laid out, you can only build so much onto it!
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Awesome physique on TommyBoy. Looks better than juicequilles imo..
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Also got to give praise to Dov from going from funky chicken guy to second place and the moral winner of MrGB.
Has that Dutch juicer/cheat/thief even posted since his smash and grab?
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That it takes decades to reach your so-called natural limit in muscle mass is just so much bullshit. The absolute majority of muscle you're ever going to build is built in the first couple of years of intelligent lifting and eating. Let's say something like at least 90% in the first 2 years. The next 2 or so years you gain the next 8-9% and you're basically THERE. For all intents and purposes you're for sure finished growing after less than 5 years of reasonably intelligent lifting. What a few posters have said here, that they're not really growing much after decades is true. "Muscle quality" may improve, though that's pretty vague and subjective term. Muscle growth isn't a slow process where you add a steady 1-2lbs a year for decades. It comes in bursts and drug free maximum muscle potential is realized very quickly.
I know people who have lifted clean for over 20 years and claim they're still growing and "progressing". I wonder how they measure this "growth" since they've weighed the exact same for 2 decades, and in many cases they're actually lighter and weaker than they were in their 20s for example.
exactly after 3 to 5 years of serious lifting and dieting you develop your maximal natural muscle mass and then when you keep hammering it for the next decades you only make it more defined but that's about it.
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exactly after 3 to 5 years of serious lifting and dieting you develop your maximal natural muscle mass and then when you keep hammering it for the next decades you only make it more defined but that's about it.
surely your not presuming to speak for the entire human race :-\ and this is not true every year I get slightly bigger while still keeping my definition purely from hard training
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surely your not presuming to speak for the entire human race :-\ and this is not true every year I get slightly bigger while still keeping my definition purely from hard training
huh...it works the same as i stated previously for ectos, mesos and endos. Of course if you re a meso you re not going to have the same amount of muscle mass as an ecto, and if you re an endo you re not going to have same amount of fat than an ecto or meso... ::)
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You always hear steroid abusers claim they needed to take the juice to surpass their natural limit. what is this limit, when does it happen and how do you know it has happened?
That always i ask to everybody.
How can we know the limit?
To know the limit, you must do everything "correct".
The thing is, who has accompished that?
I make evolucion every year. I dont know when i will stop.
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thanks shifted, makes me feel a tad better. I guess that it's just like women who look at cosmo all day then think they look terrible no matter what (by comparison).
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Jim Quinn. Gold's.
If I recall it was Billy Smith at Gold's, and it was a historic first time measurement. Jim Quinn reported on it during the telecast of that year's Mr Olympia.
1993 was a great year.
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thanks shifted, makes me feel a tad better. I guess that it's just like women who look at cosmo all day then think they look terrible no matter what (by comparison).
you know what they say: no body-dismorphic anxietal pain, no consistent hypertrophic gain.
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If I recall it was Billy Smith at Gold's, and it was a historic first time measurement. Jim Quinn reported on it during the telecast of that year's Mr Olympia.
1993 was a great year.
0 %. Caliper.
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is that a joke, sev used tons of juice and STILL has a terrible body
Yes, that was a joke and no, you are not joking.
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Maybe they are doing something wrong, I've seen people progress as the years went by, tried different things and BOOM 15-20 more lbs! I'm sorry I disagree with you on most of your post, but I do agree you make A LOT of gains in the very beginning its almost the foundation being laid out, you can only build so much onto it!
Could you maybe show an example of this? Someone who has trained even half way intelligently for years and then all of a sudden added 15-20lbs of LBM. What kind of change did they implement? Give us an example of what kind of change causes these kinds of radical results.
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Meso is pretty much the most impressive natural I have seen on this site.
Is he at his limit? I doubt it.
Will he add a 'significant' amount more mass (e.g 15-25lbs) Very very much doubt it.
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That it takes decades to reach your so-called natural limit in muscle mass is just so much bullshit. The absolute majority of muscle you're ever going to build is built in the first couple of years of intelligent lifting and eating. Let's say something like at least 90% in the first 2 years. The next 2 or so years you gain the next 8-9% and you're basically THERE. For all intents and purposes you're for sure finished growing after less than 5 years of reasonably intelligent lifting. What a few posters have said here, that they're not really growing much after decades is true. "Muscle quality" may improve, though that's pretty vague and subjective term. Muscle growth isn't a slow process where you add a steady 1-2lbs a year for decades. It comes in bursts and drug free maximum muscle potential is realized very quickly.
I know people who have lifted clean for over 20 years and claim they're still growing and "progressing". I wonder how they measure this "growth" since they've weighed the exact same for 2 decades, and in many cases they're actually lighter and weaker than they were in their 20s for example.
bingo. this is dead on
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That it takes decades to reach your so-called natural limit in muscle mass is just so much bullshit. The absolute majority of muscle you're ever going to build is built in the first couple of years of intelligent lifting and eating. Let's say something like at least 90% in the first 2 years. The next 2 or so years you gain the next 8-9% and you're basically THERE. For all intents and purposes you're for sure finished growing after less than 5 years of reasonably intelligent lifting. What a few posters have said here, that they're not really growing much after decades is true. "Muscle quality" may improve, though that's pretty vague and subjective term. Muscle growth isn't a slow process where you add a steady 1-2lbs a year for decades. It comes in bursts and drug free maximum muscle potential is realized very quickly.
I know people who have lifted clean for over 20 years and claim they're still growing and "progressing". I wonder how they measure this "growth" since they've weighed the exact same for 2 decades, and in many cases they're actually lighter and weaker than they were in their 20s for example.
Yup. After you put on the initial bulk with decent conditioning, the rest is just refinement. You can bring up some lagging parts, dial in your conditioning and look harder with less water between the muscle and skin but that's about it. You can't expect to magically pack on sheaths of muscle year after year. That's ludicrous.
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For the first 3 years I trained I did not really squat.
Did not eat enough protein
Did not train hard and smart enough.
It is only the last say year I have addressed these issues and am making the best gains I have made in a couple of years.
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What if there is no limit but the process just becomes extremely slow?
Up to a point this is possible.
However then we age and get older. Things take priority in lives. It becomes less of a priority/goal to constantly improve.
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What if there is no limit but the process just becomes extremely slow?
Thats pretty much what happens. Its a game of patience as I said earlier, you either wanna do it or you don't!
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What if there is no limit but the process just becomes extremely slow?
The margin of muscle you put on at the beginning vs afterwards is a stark contrast. You can undoubtedly put on more muscle after the first few years, but once the bar is raised those increments are going to be very, very small. And you can't expect to stay very lean and trim if you want to maximize the amount of muscle you put on.
This is all under the assumption that you're able to train your balls off day in, day out. I used to scoff at people who quit working out hardcore after a while... then I grew up. Work, women, now home life and starting a family... yeah, there are a lot of things that take priority. I'd much rather be pumping up all day but you've got to have your priorities straight.
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I think guys like Chris Faildo have reached their "limit"
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I believe people greatly underestimate their true natural limits! Some go on juice before they really reach it.
It takes years to really discover one's true natural limit, maybe 20 years or more... Not 5 years like some may be claiming!
One of the best natural bodybuilders that I've ever know is Sean Sullivan a guy who used to help me prep for shows... Sean's been competing since 1981, and one of his BEST ever showing was in 2006, he still finds he makes great improvements today both in the gym and in the way he looks!
This is a sport of consistency and lots ad lots of patience!
For those who are posting up pictures, you all look great, and even though I don't know much about you I think you are all cutting yourself short if you are claiming thats your natural limit!
I agree it takes years to potentially reach the natural limit but every true natural I have come across falls within this subjective framework...
5'7 - 170-180lbs,
5'10, 185-195lbs
6' 200-205lbs.
(all within a few lbs give or take but its not written in stone)
Right now I sit about 165-170lbs contest ready, I've been training for 13 years and am still making progress in strength but visually it appears slow. I figure I could probably put on another 5lbs in 10 years time max. But will see, It's all about being stronger now.
(For the record, I do not think I'm anywhere near the natural limit)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/saucetradomous/onebicol.jpg)
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The process isn't slow, if you train right and effectively YOU WILL gain quickly. My problem is that I don't train consistantly. But I totally are with van. Mike Mentzer said that one can fully actualize their genetic potential less than one year, I think he could be right about this, but I just get too distracted with other things ( girlfriends, sex buddies) to fully test his theory, and it doesn't help that I refuse to train legs or calves at all LOL
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Albeit Mike Mentzer was highly intelligent... he balanced his extreme levels of intelligence with extreme ignorance.
You could not, would not, will not and cannot reach your "genetic potential" in one year.
End of story.
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Ok, but what about making rapid gains very quickly? At the moment my arm measures 39cm, which is roughly 15 and 1/3 inches, and I've just started a kind of creatine experiment and I fully expect to gain 3 or 4 cm, which is about 1 and 1/2 inches in less than 4 weeks. I have a photo of the before shot of my left arm under the tread untitled "creatine" with my bodyweight and waist measurement as well. To be honest, I am quite confident that I will be able to do this, but if I don't then I will admit it.
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Ok, but what about making rapid gains very quickly? At the moment my arm measures 39cm, which is roughly 15 and 1/3 inches, and I've just started a kind of creatine experiment and I fully expect to gain 3 or 4 cm, which is about 1 and 1/2 inches in less than 4 weeks. I have a photo of the before shot of my left arm under the tread untitled "creatine" with my bodyweight and waist measurement as well. To be honest, I am quite confident that I will be able to do this, but if I don't then I will admit it.
Yeah it's possible if you gain like 20lbs of FAT.
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100 pounds. Your welcome
Have you ever contributed something worthwhile to this board? I mean, ever?
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twice
LOL ;D
BDB Brings the LOLZ Naw what I mean dog hahaha
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We will see, but if I do gain 20 pounds of fat, then it will go to my waist, but not to my arms LOL I took a waist measurement, so it will be documented as well.
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Good thread. I see some positive attitude.
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Is that you sauce? Look fuckin sick man
X2
He has the great quads sweep.
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http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=117526.675 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=117526.675)
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pretty good dov, you mind me asking how old you are?
34
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It's not possible to reach a natural genetic limit. There is no limit. The human body is very complex with lots of inputs and outputs and physical and mental processing. How do you control for these factors to optimize muscle growth to the absolute limit. Statistically impossible. There is no limit.
???
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(http://www.skiplacour.com/AST%20Products/with_VP2_2.jpg)
Is this Skip La Cour? I doubt that he is a lifetime natural.
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Is that you sauce? Look fuckin sick man
yeah, just wish I could be that cut every day. I sit at about 180lbs right now, 10% bodyfat. I need to Drink & socialize these days but I stay pretty close to that.
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That it takes decades to reach your so-called natural limit in muscle mass is just so much bullshit. The absolute majority of muscle you're ever going to build is built in the first couple of years of intelligent lifting and eating. Let's say something like at least 90% in the first 2 years. The next 2 or so years you gain the next 8-9% and you're basically THERE. For all intents and purposes you're for sure finished growing after less than 5 years of reasonably intelligent lifting. What a few posters have said here, that they're not really growing much after decades is true. "Muscle quality" may improve, though that's pretty vague and subjective term. Muscle growth isn't a slow process where you add a steady 1-2lbs a year for decades. It comes in bursts and drug free maximum muscle potential is realized very quickly.
I know people who have lifted clean for over 20 years and claim they're still growing and "progressing". I wonder how they measure this "growth" since they've weighed the exact same for 2 decades, and in many cases they're actually lighter and weaker than they were in their 20s for example.
I've been lifting on and off since I was 12 - probably taken a total of 6-7 years off in that time (breaks ranging from a few months to a few years at a time), which means I've lifted around 14 years altogether. I was 125 lb when I started and about 215 lb at the end of that time. Put on about 25 lb in the last 4 - 5 years and I think I can still add another 20 lb or so. My arms went from 17 something inches to 19" during the last 3 years of that time.
Granted I'm at 15 - 20% body fat, but that still means you can make substantial gains 10 or even 15 years after you start lifting, as long as you are improving in terms of the amount of weight you lift (progressive overload), eat proper food and have decent genetics.
Judging what is possible by looking at the average lifter would make you conclude that it's not possible to reach a pro's level of development either. I bet not one of the guys who has said QFT or x2 to your post has trained for 20 years or more naturally, including yourself, to see what is possible ;D
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Good post kiwiol, I think the point about one reaching the upper limits of their muscular potiential really can be achieved within 2 or 3 years, if one would stay comitted to and dedicated to sound training practices, namely progressive overload. But I think that it takes a special kind of person to do that. With my own case in point, I usually just get distracted my other things, mainly girlfriends, fvck partners, or females in general :<
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I've been lifting on and off since I was 12 - probably taken a total of 6-7 years off in that time (breaks ranging from a few months to a few years at a time), which means I've lifted around 14 years altogether. I was 125 lb when I started and about 215 lb at the end of that time. Put on about 25 lb in the last 4 - 5 years and I think I can still add another 20 lb or so. My arms went from 17 something inches to 19" during the last 3 years of that time.
Granted I'm at 15 - 20% body fat, but that still means you can make substantial gains 10 or even 15 years after you start lifting, as long as you are improving in terms of the amount of weight you lift (progressive overload), eat proper food and have decent genetics.
Judging what is possible by looking at the average lifter would make you conclude that it's not possible to reach a pro's level of development either. I bet not one of the guys who has said QFT or x2 to your post has trained for 20 years or more naturally, including yourself, to see what is possible ;D
You think you can add 20lbs without increasing BF further? Or do you figure the muscle (hopefully) will stick once you diet down again? Well, who knows, you'll know in a couple of decades or whatever.:D
You're obviously not going to reach your potential in 2 years if you start training even before puberty.:D Not even if you start at 15. I trained a few months when I was 9 and then started training regularly at 14-15 (was about 125lbs by the time I turned 15). I wouldn't have reached my full natural potential by 17 as I wouldn't even have been a fully mature adult, not even finished growing height wise, etc. But take a fully grown adult male, say a 20 year old, who can apply himself. He will put on the majority of muscle very quickly. Then he can bulk and cut, again and again, but it doesn't seem to change the size of the cut physique much.
Of course I haven't actually tried training naturally for 20 years. Too long an experiment to verify something not that important to me, something I could decide by observing others.:D
A friend of mine, a major juicer, once actually argued with me that a natural could reach Ronnie's size, if only he wouldn't run out of time. I don't think it works quite like that. I was really pissed he could make such a silly argument. :D
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According to Arthur Jones an adult male is able to make his best possible progress btw the ages of roughly 25 to 35.
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Good post kiwiol, I think the point about one reaching the upper limits of their muscular potiential really can be achieved within 2 or 3 years, if one would stay comitted to and dedicated to sound training practices, namely progressive overload. But I think that it takes a special kind of person to do that.
Yep, it's the same as with most things - the people who do go very far and achieve great success with whatever they do are very few in number compared to the majority.
You think you can add 20lbs without increasing BF further? Or do you figure the muscle (hopefully) will stick once you diet down again? Well, who knows, you'll know in a couple of decades or whatever.:D
I think I can add about 20 lb of body weight in about 3 - 4 years, while staying at around 18% body fat. Not all of that is going to be muscle, but at least 10 - 12 lb of it should be. I've got a fair bit of room for growth left in my legs, which lag behind my upper body due to my not having trained them seriously until about 6 years ago.
I don't think a natural can come anywhere close to looking like a pro, but I'd say a lot of people do underestimate what is possible. The average lifter you see in gyms shouldn't be the gauge of what is possible, cause over 90% of them are clueless when it comes to knowing how to lift or structure their workouts, on top of having lackluster genetics and being very inconsistent.
You mentioned in your original post that it's next to impossible to experience any significant growth after 10 years or so and it was that point that I was addressing with my reply. Even someone who starts lifting in their 20s and is consistent should be capable of adding 5 - 10 lb of muscle by the time they reach their late 30s, although the actual number of them who do end up doing it will be severely outnumbered by those who don't make any gains at all.
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It's not possible to reach a natural genetic limit. There is no limit. The human body is very complex with lots of inputs and outputs and physical and mental processing. How do you control for these factors to optimize muscle growth to the absolute limit. Statistically impossible. There is no limit.
I think there is limit.
But, as you say, nobody can reach that limit.
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It is ShipSekki.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
kiwi is right on the money as usual.
bodytype counts for a lot (which is what drugs tend to change)
It's hard for an ectomorph to gain 10lb of simple bw...
It' much easier for the endomorph, most will be fat...
It's relatively easy for the meso/endo like us to walk around at 240-250lb 5'9"-5'10" a little chubby but clean as a whistle...
Pure meso are the lucky ones but I've only met 2 in my life... liquid_c who posts on here and Casey Viator..
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According to Arthur Jones an adult male is able to make his best possible progress btw the ages of roughly 25 to 35 55.
but I am 57 now :-\
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But you sir, are a good and decent man so much respect to you :) And maybe it is true that the best gains come between the ages of 25 til 35, but he also said that anyone can make progress regardless of their age.