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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Fury on June 24, 2010, 08:04:20 AM
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So now certain areas of the country are off-limits to non-Muslims and handing out pamphlets in Sharia ruled Dearbornistan is illegal? What a disgusting situation from these so-called "moderates" who have "integrated" into our society.
Coming soon to your town.
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Bad judgment all around. The police shouldn't have arrested them but in doing so they are trying to defuse and escalation of the situation. It's legal for any religious group to stand outside another's place of worship or celebration and hand out opposing beliefs, that doesn't make it a good judgment call. I would dare anyone to go stand outside a roman catholic church in New York and hand out Muslim verses. You'll have your arse handed to you in minutes.
I'm not saying they should have been arrested obviously you have religious freedom but the time and place was a poor attempt to incite a reaction, nothing more.
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Bad judgment all around. The police shouldn't have arrested them but in doing so they are trying to defuse and escalation of the situation. It's legal for any religious group to stand outside another's place of worship or celebration and hand out opposing beliefs, that doesn't make it a good judgment call. I would dare anyone to go stand outside a roman catholic church in New York and hand out Muslim verses. You'll have your arse handed to you in minutes.
I'm not saying they should have been arrested obviously you have religious freedom but the time and place was a poor attempt to incite a reaction, nothing more.
Bad judgment or not, the Constitution grants them the right to hand-out religious material. But shocker, our Constitutionally-mandated rights once again take a back seat to the world's 24/7/365 victims.
But I like your justification of the situation by likening it to a Muslim handing out religious material outside a Church. So, once again, two wrongs make a right. For that matter, there is no indication that a Muslim would have his "arse handed to him" for handing religious pamphlets out. In-fact, I suspect nothing violent would happen (and anti-Islamic crime statistics support that). ::)
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Bad judgment or not, the Constitution grants them the right to hand-out religious material. But shocker, our Constitutionally-mandated rights once again take a back seat to the world's 24/7/365 victims.
But I like your justification of the situation by likening it to a Muslim handing out religious material outside a Church. So, once again, two wrongs make a right. For that matter, there is no indication that a Muslim would have his "arse handed to him" for handing religious pamphlets out. In-fact, I suspect nothing violent would happen (and anti-Islamic crime statistics support that). ::)
That it does but it doesn't grant them the right to disobey police officers who are trying to stop a potential situation. I don't think these guys will be found guilty of anything other than poor judgement.
I'm not saying church goers are inherently violent nor that if would make it right, it's still just as wrong, but if you stand outside someones place of worship and hand out conflicting documents it is not unreasonable to expect some abuse whether physical or verbal i can guarantee you of that. Some would view it as an afront or attack on their beliefs.
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That it does but it doesn't grant them the right to disobey police officers who are trying to stop a potential situation. I don't think these guys will be found guilty of anything other than poor judgement.
I'm not saying church goers are inherently violent nor that if would make it right, it's still just as wrong, but if you stand outside someones place of worship and hand out conflicting documents it is not unreasonable to expect some abuse whether physical or verbal i can guarantee you of that. Some would view it as an afront or attack on their beliefs.
What situation? You mean the Muslims who circled around them and who were on the cusp of violently attacking them? Those are the people that should have been stopped, not the people handing out leaflets. Or is it OK for Muslims to walk all over our rights whenever they feel like it (don't bother answering as I already know where you stand on that). I've seen people proselytizing in non-Muslim areas before. Not once have I seen them on the verge of getting attacked. Funny how it's only the Mohammedans that act like that.
Secondly, it wasn't someone's place of worship. It was a FESTIVAL that was supposedly open to everyone.
Amazing that you're actually justifying the trampling of our Constitutionally-mandated rights because the Muslims felt slighted. Pretty disgusting stuff, to be honest.
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What situation? You mean the Muslims who circled around them and who were on the cusp of violently attacking them? Those are the people that should have been stopped, not the people handing out leaflets. Or is it OK for Muslims to walk all over our rights whenever they feel like it (don't bother answering as I already know where you stand on that).
Secondly, it wasn't someone's place of worship. It was a FESTIVAL that was supposedly open to everyone.
Amazing that you're actually justifying the trampling of our Constitutionally-mandated rights. Pretty disgusting stuff, to be honest.
Haha i never said it was right, but that i understand why the police did it. People get angry when you do things like that. It's like those people picketing the funerals. They are legally allowed to do it, but it doesn't make it right and if the police felt they were in danger of being attacked they would probably take them away too.
This is no different than walking into harlem with a white's only t-shirt. It's going to piss those black people off you're allowed to do it, but it doesn't make it good judgment.
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Haha i never said it was right, but that i understand why the police did it. People get angry when you do things like that. It's like those people picketing the funerals. They are legally allowed to do it, but it doesn't make it right and if the police felt they were in danger of being attacked they would probably take them away too.
This is no different than walking into harlem with a white's only t-shirt. It's going to piss those black people off you're allowed to do it, but it doesn't make it good judgment.
Again you're justifying this situation by likening it to something else. So two wrongs make a right. How sad.
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Again you're justifying this situation by likening it to something else. So two wrongs make a right. How sad.
I haven't justified anything other than the giving a reason for the officers actions. I have not said they are right, only that i understand why they did what they did.
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The other videos by muslims calling the christians liars are ridiculous. They claim that the christians were not peacefully handing out their material because the cops booked them for "disorderly conduct". I saw nothing wrong with what the christians did. They didn't get into any arguments with anyone. They weren't chastising any of the muslims for having a different religious belief.
I guess if a cop says it, it must be true.
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The charge of "disorderly conduct" is BS most of the time, it's what police use to book people when they can't find a true legitimate reason.
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The other videos by muslims calling the christians liars are ridiculous. They claim that the christians were not peacefully handing out their material because the cops booked them for "disorderly conduct". I saw nothing wrong with what the christians did. They didn't get into any arguments with anyone. They weren't chastising any of the muslims for having a different religious belief.
I guess if a cop says it, it must be true.
It's the second year in a row this has happened. Last year the cops tried to confiscate their video because it showed the Muslims circling around them looking to attack. Can't book Christians for crimes when they're the victims. ::)
So, once again, Muslims get special treatment. Can't proselytize in any areas with sizable Muslim populations. I know a lot of countries like that. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya and some others come to mind.
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You can't incite a conflict and then claim to be a victim.
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I wonder what law allowed the police to force those people to go five blocks away? Pretty bad police work. I'd say some Constitutional rights got trampled.
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I wonder what law allowed the police to force those people to go five blocks away? Pretty bad police work. I'd say some Constitutional rights got trampled.
People can protest all they want, just not at a distance that interferes with the rights of others. There's no difference between these people protesting outside a mosque and those idiots at soldier funerals or outside Planned Parenthood.
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People can protest all they want, just not at a distance that interferes with the rights of others. There's no difference between these people protesting outside a mosque and those idiots at soldier funerals or outside Planned Parenthood.
you mean like the seiu people that protested on the bank ceo"s door step and the police did nothing?
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You can't incite a conflict and then claim to be a victim.
Yup. A guy was standing in the middle of an Arab festival screaming "Jesus is the way" or some shit. Half the guys on this board would have an aneurysm if the rolls were reversed and would probably wanna see someone get shit kicked.
Don't these guys have anything else better to do?
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Yup. A guy was standing in the middle of an Arab festival screaming "Jesus is the way" or some shit. Half the guys on this board would have an aneurysm if the rolls were reversed and would probably wanna see someone get shit kicked.
Don't these guys have anything else better to do?
No.
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People can protest all they want, just not at a distance that interferes with the rights of others. There's no difference between these people protesting outside a mosque and those idiots at soldier funerals or outside Planned Parenthood.
They weren't protesting.
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They weren't protesting.
Wouldn't be the first time people proselytized as a form of protest and then played all innocent.
You can't provoke people and then claim intolerance. It's gay.
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Wouldn't be the first time people proselytized as a form of protest and then played all innocent.
You can't provoke people and then claim intolerance. It's gay.
They weren't provoking people either. Handing out religious literature that talks about love, peace, and all that jazz is about as peaceful as you can get. This was nothing more than censorship and an abuse of police power.
I have actually seen this kind of thing done many times, where one denomination hands out literature either on or near the proper of another.
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They weren't provoking people either. Handing out religious literature that talks about love, peace, and all that jazz is about as peaceful as you can get. This was nothing more than censorship and an abuse of police power.
I have actually seen this kind of thing done many times, where one denomination hands out literature either on or near the proper of another.
So a bunch of people handing out Planned Parenthood brochures in front of your church before service would be cool?
Those guys weren't looking for sensationalism, not fellowship. It's doubtful anything would have made the website had they been welcomed with open arms or ignored.
I'm not a fan of any religion but we can't let idiots force the state to prefer one over another with stupid stunts. You know how the courts go.... if they lose rights, so do you. :)
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I have actually seen this kind of thing done many times, where one denomination hands out literature either on or near the proper of another.
Yeah and it's absolutely ridiculous, they need to stop trying to do people "favors".
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So a bunch of people handing out Planned Parenthood brochures in front of your church before service would be cool?
Those guys weren't looking for sensationalism, not fellowship. It's doubtful anything would have made the website had they been welcomed with open arms or ignored.
I'm not a fan of any religion but we can't let idiots force the state to prefer one over another with stupid stunts. You know how the courts go.... if they lose rights, so do you. :)
I could care less if Planned Parenthood is outside my church handing out brochures.
What these people did is what thousands of Americans do every day. I see people do this all the time. There is absolutely nothing provactive about standing on a corner handing out religious literature. At least not in this instance.
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Yeah and it's absolutely ridiculous, they need to stop trying to do people "favors".
I don't have a problem with it. They believe in their message. It's a "good" message, whether you believe in their specific tenets or not. People need to stop being so hypersensitive when it comes to religion.
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It's a "good" message, whether you believe in their specific tenets or not.
Good for you them. Now,they can keep it at home where they can meditate on it on their own or with like minded people. If I feel like hooking up wth Jesus,, I'll call them.
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Good for you them. Now,they can keep it at home where they can meditate on it on their own or with like minded people. If I feel like hooking up wth Jesus,, I'll call them.
Or they can continue to exercise their First Amendment rights, and you, me, and anyone else who aren't interested can simply ignore them. Censorship and violations of Constitutional rights aren't the answer.
Keep in mind that the speech and expression part of the First Amendment is really designed to protect unpopular speech and expression.
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I don't have a problem with it. They believe in their message. It's a "good" message, whether you believe in their specific tenets or not. People need to stop being so hypersensitive when it comes to religion.
You're smart enough to know I'm talking about rights, not religion.
These guys were grandstanding and that's probably a lot worse. We're not talking about lighting a candle behind a bush in this case. They were seeking attention to themselves and a cause and just happened to scapegoat religion.
free speech is a funny thing. People always like to pretend it isn't violated until someone yells "fire" in a crowded movie theater when the content is agreeable to them. :) I'll always argue that's dangerous because our rights shouldn't vary with majority whim.
They should be able to freely assemble, hand out crap, protest, grin and bear arms, whatever... just not in a manner that knowingly interferes with the rights of others.
Change immigration laws. That's the solution.
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Or they can continue to exercise their First Amendment rights, and you, me, and anyone else who aren't interested can simply ignore them. Censorship and violations of Constitutional rights aren't the answer.
Keep in mind that the speech and expression part of the First Amendment is really designed to protect unpopular speech and expression.
The whole point of them handing out leaflets, (I don't believe that's all they did), was to spread "the word" but all they succeeded in doing was turning people off and being a nuisance.
And it's hard to ignore a screaming idiot who followed me at a festival where I would least expect them to be. They went to an Arab festivel for fuck sakes, if they wanted christ pushed into their face I don't think they would be there, they would be at a Christian church. These guys were poking a hornets nest with a stick for a reaction and they got one.
It's like people who try and "save" the life of a fetus by standing in front of an abortion clinic screaming at women who go in that they're going to burn in hell for murder. Great effective use for your right to free speech.
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How dare they go to an Arab festival in America. Here I was thinking they had the right to do that! Silly me. I guess that certain areas of the country are now off-limits to non-Muslims. ::)
It's funny watching people justify trampling all over Constitutionally-mandated rights when it suits them. How very governmental of you.
You guys are great examples of why Muslim "extremists" act like they do. ;)
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The whole point of them handing out leaflets, (I don't believe that's all they did), was to spread "the word" but all they succeeded in doing was turning people off and being a nuisance.
And it's hard to ignore a screaming idiot who followed me at a festival where I would least expect them to be. They went to an Arab festivel for fuck sakes, if they wanted christ pushed into their face I don't think they would be there, they would be at a Christian church. These guys were poking a hornets nest with a stick for a reaction and they got one.
It's like people who try and "save" the life of a fetus by standing in front of an abortion clinic screaming at women who go in that they're going to burn in hell for murder. Great effective use for your right to free speech.
Apparently some want the Constitution amended to allow extra free speech and the right to interfere with Muslims. :)
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You're smart enough to know I'm talking about rights, not religion.
These guys were grandstanding and that's probably a lot worse. We're not talking about lighting a candle behind a bush in this case. They were seeking attention to themselves and a cause and just happened to scapegoat religion.
free speech is a funny thing. People always like to pretend it isn't violated until someone yells "fire" in a crowded movie theater when the content is agreeable to them. :) I'll always argue that's dangerous because our rights shouldn't vary with majority whim.
They should be able to freely assemble, hand out crap, protest, grin and bear arms, whatever... just not in a manner that knowingly interferes with the rights of others.
Change immigration laws. That's the solution.
I'm talking about rights too. I think they have them. You think they don't. We both can't be right. :)
Did we watch the same clip? They stood on the sidewalk holding pamphlets. I didn't hear any shouting, didn't see any aggressive behavior, didn't see anything provocative. They were approached by about ten cops within minutes.
If you view what I saw on that clip as akin to yelling "fire" in a crowed theater, or those crazy immoral Westboro people, then we just have to agree to disagree.
People attending a religious festival, church, etc., don't have the right to not see people of other faiths handing out religious literature.
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The whole point of them handing out leaflets, (I don't believe that's all they did), was to spread "the word" but all they succeeded in doing was turning people off and being a nuisance.
And it's hard to ignore a screaming idiot who followed me at a festival where I would least expect them to be. They went to an Arab festivel for fuck sakes, if they wanted christ pushed into their face I don't think they would be there, they would be at a Christian church. These guys were poking a hornets nest with a stick for a reaction and they got one.
It's like people who try and "save" the life of a fetus by standing in front of an abortion clinic screaming at women who go in that they're going to burn in hell for murder. Great effective use for your right to free speech.
Who did they turn off? They were there for all of three minutes. Besides, offensive speech and expression is protected by the First Amendment.
Someone screaming in your face is committing a crime. Call the police. Someone trying to hand you a piece of paper is not committing a crime. Ignore them.
Again, I didn't see any screaming, etc. Has nothing to do with what I saw on the clip. Unless I just overlooked the screaming part?
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Apparently some want the Constitution amended to allow extra free speech and the right to interfere with Muslims. :)
Proselytizing is interfering with Muslims now? And here I was thinking they were subjected to obeying the same rules dictating free speech and religion as I was. Silly me.
But apparently all we have to do is circle around, while appearing to harbor violent intentions, anyone handing out any sort of religious material and they'll get thrown out of the area or arrested. How foolish of me to think we had the 1st amendment here.
Fact of the matter is that these people were acting perfectly within the law and the rights granted them and, once again, the Muslims got special treatment and victim status out of it.
Funny how you can walk around any major city and find dozens of people proselytizing every day without any violent ramifications but apparently Dearbornistan is different and special. ::)
This moral high-ground stance you try to take is nothing short of hilarious, "doc". Almost as funny as you crying about racism.
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Proselytizing is interfering with Muslims now? And here I was thinking they were subjected to obeying the same rules dictating free speech and religion as I was. Silly me.
But apparently all we have to do is circle around, while appearing to harbor violent intentions, anyone handing out any sort of religious material and they'll get thrown out of the area or arrested. How foolish of me to think we had the 1st amendment here.
Fact of the matter is that these people were acting perfectly within the law and the rights granted them and, once again, the Muslims got special treatment and victim status out of it.
Funny how you can walk around any major city and find dozens of people proselytizing every day without any violent ramifications but apparently Dearbornistan is different and special. ::)
This moral high-ground stance you try to take is nothing short of hilarious, "doc". Almost as funny as you crying about racism.
We're talking about rights, morals.
FWIW, our rights are all tied. If you don't mind giving up some individual rights to do certain things (or not) without interference or have their boundaries determined by majority whim... fine. Bear one thing in mind: it's impossible to impose upon their rights without sacrificing yours, too.
If you're more afraid of fundamental Islam than having no individual rights then the terrorists win.
Me? I'd rather keep America free. If there must be sacrifices, let them be made abroad... with bombs and America centered policies.
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We're talking about rights, morals.
FWIW, our rights are all tied. If you don't mind giving up some individual rights to do certain things (or not) without interference or have their boundaries determined by majority whim... fine. Bear one thing in mind: it's impossible to impose upon their rights without sacrificing yours, too.
If you're more afraid of fundamental Islam than having no individual rights then the terrorists win.
Me? I'd rather keep America free. If there must be sacrifices, let them be made abroad... with bombs and America centered policies.
What the hell are you blabbering about? What could Christians handing out pamphlets possibly have to do with fundamentalist Islam? Are Muslims banned from proselytizing now or something? The Ground Zero mosque would like a word with you. ::)
I think the multiple cases of Islamic charities funding jihad, and the fact that they keep doing it, speaks wonders for how badly we're "trampling" on Muslim's rights here.
You can try to spin it all you want, but fact of the matter is that people proselytize all over this country every day and the overwhelming majority are able to do it without having an angry crowd circle around them threatening violence. Of course, most of this country isn't like Sharia ruled Dearbornistan.
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What the hell are you blabbering about? What could Christians handing out pamphlets possibly have to do with fundamentalist Islam? Are Muslims banned from proselytizing now or something? The Ground Zero mosque would like a word with you. ::)
I think the multiple cases of Islamic charities funding jihad, and the fact that they keep doing it, speaks wonders for how badly we're "trampling" on Muslim's rights here.
You can try to spin it all you want, but fact of the matter is that people proselytize all over this country every day and the overwhelming majority are able to do it without having an angry crowd circle around them threatening violence. Of course, most of this country isn't like Sharia ruled Dearbornistan.
The compulsion to add "istan" to everything shows the concept is either too complex or not being explained in simple enough language.
I'll pop back to the thread later and see if anyone else gets it. :)
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The compulsion to add "istan" to everything shows the concept is either too complex or not being explained in simple enough language.
I'll pop back to the thread later and see if anyone else gets it. :)
Ahh yes, here comes the chiropractor of all people trying to play the intelligence card. Been waiting for that.
You're taking an incident of Christians being arrested for proselytizing and trying to wrap it into some grand, and incredibly vague, argument about trampling on some unidentified rights to combat radical islam. Your entire argument is that the first amendment can go out the window in this situation because we're apparently giving up some unidentified rights in other situations to combat the jihadists. Nice straw man.
Let me help you out here. Being vague and playing the straw man game doesn't help your argument nor make you look intelligent.
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Ahh yes, here comes the chiropractor of all people trying to play the intelligence card. Been waiting for that.
You're taking an incident of Christians being arrested for proselytizing and trying to wrap it into some grand, and incredibly vague, argument about trampling on some unidentified rights to combat radical islam. Your entire argument is that the first amendment can go out the window in this situation because we're apparently giving up some unidentified rights in other situations to combat the jihadists. Nice straw man.
Let me help you out here. Being vague and playing the straw man game doesn't help your argument nor make you look intelligent.
Yawn.
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Yawn.
Thanks for proving my point.
Do you honestly think your cryptic responses and straw man arguments are impressive?
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I dont care if it's religion, protesting a war, or selling vacuum cleaners.
People who disrupt events should be kicked the hell outta there.
If any group showed up at this Christians' church and started making a fuss, they'd be kicked out too.
Wow, religion is such a divisize idiotic issue. Live and let live. Who gives a fck what other morons believe - you're all worshipping an invisible man. Yours is just a little different from his.
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Yawn.
Tired of getting owned? I don't blame you. Stop now, and you may be able to control the bleeding.
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Tired of getting owned? I don't blame you. Stop now, and you may be able to control the bleeding.
Why waste more time with someone who can't understand the concept?
His fearing Muslims is fine. I just can't see losing personal rights for the illusion of safety.
We are all used to his chimp-screaming, though. :)
I just wish he'd learned more in that one debate class than "straw man", LOL! I always find it amusing when people memorize one term in an undergrad class and then try their best to work it into a discussion and seem educated.
He's a good guy, though.