Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: Meso_z on August 17, 2010, 01:29:37 AM
-
what will be the side effects? longterm?
say a 16 week of 400mg of course with test then switch to eq for couple months.
for a contest, too much?
i have used once deca in the past 14 weeks 400mg no problem..
-
what will be the side effects? longterm?
say a 16 week of 400mg of course with test then switch to eq for couple months.
for a contest, too much?
i have used once deca in the past 14 weeks 400mg no problem..
side effect = deca dick - lacatating gyno - bloat - appetite
but mass.
-
You should only get those sides if you dont take proper precautions. Keep Caber/Dostinex on hand, and keep your estrogen in control right from the get go.
-
You should only get those sides if you dont take proper precautions. Keep Caber/Dostinex on hand, and keep your estrogen in control right from the get go.
isnt a 16 week a long course though? any long term sides?
it will be a part of my contest prep..
-
16 weeks is minimum as far as far as I'm concerned with Nandralone Decanoate. Now if you were to run NPP you could run it for a shorter time, and I think NPP would be a better choice for contest prep.
-
16 weeks is minimum as far as far as I'm concerned with Nandralone Decanoate. Now if you were to run NPP you could run it for a shorter time, and I think NPP would be a better choice for contest prep.
x2
I'd run NPP for Weeks 1-8..then switch to Tren
-
you can run deca for 16 weeks, 8 weeks, one month, or just one single cc.
the point is to get androgens floating aorund in yoru system.
if one week you switched out one of your 250mg cc's of test for a cc of 250mg deca, and afterwards kept just running the same cycle as you were before.. would there be any difference ?? no
if your going to run deca alone, then it would be wise to go ahead and purchase enough to run it for at least 4-5 months. but if you only have one bottle, or one ampule, or any amount of the steroid.. you can go ahead and use up what youve got.
3 weeks of deca by itself will give the same results as 3 weeks of deca out of a 16 week cycle of deca. let me try to explain better..
take the following....
deca 500mg per week
week 1
week 2
week 3
week 4
week 5
week 6
week 7
week 8
week 9
week 10
week 11
week 12
week 13
week 14
week 15
week 16
during weeks 1-3 of the roid cycle you put on X amount of weight. then during weeks 4-16 you put on Y amount of weight. so now youve put on the sum total of X+Y.
do you think that the amount of weight "X" (gained during weeks 1-3) would change if you didnt do weeks 4-16 afterwards ?? nope, the amount gained during weeks 1-3 would remain unchanged, regardless of whatever you ran afterwards.
so there is no minimum amount of time to take any steroid. when people say "take deca for at least 16 weeks".. what they mean to say is... deca is not going to make you put on any noticeable size unless you use it for an extended period of time, probably at least 16 weeks before you would see any real changes.
-
you can run deca for 16 weeks, 8 weeks, one month, or just one single cc.
the point is to get androgens floating aorund in yoru system.
if one week you switched out one of your 250mg cc's of test for a cc of 250mg deca, and afterwards kept just running the same cycle as you were before.. would there be any difference ?? no
if your going to run deca alone, then it would be wise to go ahead and purchase enough to run it for at least 4-5 months. but if you only have one bottle, or one ampule, or any amount of the steroid.. you can go ahead and use up what youve got.
3 weeks of deca by itself will give the same results as 3 weeks of deca out of a 16 week cycle of deca. let me try to explain better..
take the following....
deca 500mg per week
week 1
week 2
week 3
week 4
week 5
week 6
week 7
week 8
week 9
week 10
week 11
week 12
week 13
week 14
week 15
week 16
during weeks 1-3 of the roid cycle you put on X amount of weight. then during weeks 4-16 you put on Y amount of weight. so now youve put on the sum total of X+Y.
do you think that the amount of weight "X" (gained during weeks 1-3) would change if you didnt do weeks 4-16 afterwards ?? nope, the amount gained during weeks 1-3 would remain unchanged, regardless of whatever you ran afterwards.
so there is no minimum amount of time to take any steroid. when people say "take deca for at least 16 weeks".. what they mean to say is... deca is not going to make you put on any noticeable size unless you use it for an extended period of time, probably at least 16 weeks before you would see any real changes.
Are you serious with this bs? come on man seriously? I think people are smart enough to know what we mean with out a book from you outlining it for them.
-
so people would be stupid if they didnt understand that ?
its not about thinking people are stupid, which you seemingly do, but about helping more accurately clarify advice(s) so that the OP (and everyone else who might read) will have all the info, not just a bit of it which could lead them to false conclusions.
-
you can run deca for 16 weeks, 8 weeks, one month, or just one single cc.
the point is to get androgens floating aorund in yoru system.
if one week you switched out one of your 250mg cc's of test for a cc of 250mg deca, and afterwards kept just running the same cycle as you were before.. would there be any difference ?? no
if your going to run deca alone, then it would be wise to go ahead and purchase enough to run it for at least 4-5 months. but if you only have one bottle, or one ampule, or any amount of the steroid.. you can go ahead and use up what youve got.
3 weeks of deca by itself will give the same results as 3 weeks of deca out of a 16 week cycle of deca. let me try to explain better..
take the following....
deca 500mg per week
week 1
week 2
week 3
week 4
week 5
week 6
week 7
week 8
week 9
week 10
week 11
week 12
week 13
week 14
week 15
week 16
during weeks 1-3 of the roid cycle you put on X amount of weight. then during weeks 4-16 you put on Y amount of weight. so now youve put on the sum total of X+Y.
do you think that the amount of weight "X" (gained during weeks 1-3) would change if you didnt do weeks 4-16 afterwards ?? nope, the amount gained during weeks 1-3 would remain unchanged, regardless of whatever you ran afterwards.
so there is no minimum amount of time to take any steroid. when people say "take deca for at least 16 weeks".. what they mean to say is... deca is not going to make you put on any noticeable size unless you use it for an extended period of time, probably at least 16 weeks before you would see any real changes.
I dont really care about the duration....im more worried about health risks..with deca and generally. considering that i will do a 16week deca and then switching to something else like eq for a 12week and so on....year round mainly for competitions..
-
I dont really care about the duration....im more worried about health risks..with deca and generally. considering that i will do a 16week deca and then switching to something else like eq for a 12week and so on....year round mainly for competitions..
theres no real health risks beyond hpta/testicular shutdown .. month long cycle, year long cycle, decade long cycle.. if your genetically predisposed to prostate cancer or cardiovascular issues then long term steroid useage may cause either of those to "speed up"... but beyond that i wouldnt worry about anything
-
This urban legend of deca causing all these problems is typical "bro science". LOTS of guys use deca no problems. Yes it will bloat you up. But as far as the other sides it all depends on the individuals. I love deca. With a little bromocriptine and it's awesome!
-
This urban legend of deca causing all these problems is typical "bro science". LOTS of guys use deca no problems. Yes it will bloat you up. But as far as the other sides it all depends on the individuals. I love deca. With a little bromocriptine and it's awesome!
This ..its either for you or not , everyone reacts to every single drug in different ways ..some get said sides some dont , some get major some get minor or none.
-
so people would be stupid if they didnt understand that ?
its not about thinking people are stupid, which you seemingly do, but about helping more accurately clarify advice(s) so that the OP (and everyone else who might read) will have all the info, not just a bit of it which could lead them to false conclusions.
Actually I don't think anyone here is stupid. Don't put words in my mouth. You just seem to have the need to always out do everyone on the board with this kind of BS. Relax is all I'm saying, they get it, because their not stupid.
-
Actually I don't think anyone here is stupid. Don't put words in my mouth. You just seem to have the need to always out do everyone on the board with this kind of BS. Relax is all I'm saying, they get it, because their not stupid.
if you feel like im trying to "out do" you, then im sorry your ego is getting the way of your interpretation skills. i enjoy elaborating on ideas i feel other people may have some confusion about. that is all. if you have something to share, im always welcome to reading it, especially if its something i didnt know before or hadnt thought about before. dont be afraid to try and "out do" me.. ;D
-
if you feel like im trying to "out do" you, then im sorry your ego is getting the way of your interpretation skills. i enjoy elaborating on ideas i feel other people may have some confusion about. that is all. if you have something to share, im always welcome to reading it, especially if its something i didnt know before or hadnt thought about before. dont be afraid to try and "out do" me.. ;D
No ego problems here, I have no need to out do you or anyone else, you just make your self look like a Tool. My life experience alone out does you. Get off the BS studies, and get some real life experience.
-
Deca is my favorite AAS after Test, but it gave me horrible acne.
No issues other than that.
I do believe that Deca should be ran for a few months minimum to get the benefits from it.
If you have any minor aches or pains they will fade with Deca, but don't use this as an excuse not to do proper warm ups and light weight sets at the beginning of your routine.
8)
-
Deca is my favorite AAS after Test, but it gave me horrible acne.
No issues other than that.
I do believe that Deca should be ran for a few months minimum to get the benefits from it.
If you have any minor aches or pains they will fade with Deca, but don't use this as an excuse not to do proper warm ups and light weight sets at the beginning of your routine.
8)
Agreed. I get just a little acne when hormone levels are going up, or coming down. During the cycle, I'm usually clear.
-
I've run low dose of deca for a year straight non stop... no problems.
-
No ego problems here, I have no need to out do you or anyone else, you just make your self look like a Tool. My life experience alone out does you. Get off the BS studies, and get some real life experience.
::)
-
Any steroid you take starts working immediately. And any steroid gives the most gains in the first few weeks, including Deca. It's just like tbombz said, the reason longer cycles are recommended with certain steroids is because they are so weak. Relatively. You need a long time to pile on appreciable gains, seen by mirror/scale, yet if you really tracked your progress with some advanced body composition methods you'd see progress was faster initially (with any steroid). Winstrol cycles are always longer than Dbol. Why? Because Dbol is stronger, not because Winstrol doesn't start working within hours/minutes.
There's no minimum time to take any steroid. Take a single shot of 300mg a Deca and for a couple of weeks your protein synthesis is greatly elevated. But longer is always better for obvious reasons.
-
Any steroid you take starts working immediately. And any steroid gives the most gains in the first few weeks, including Deca. It's just like tbombz said, the reason longer cycles are recommended with certain steroids is because they are so weak. Relatively. You need a long time to pile on appreciable gains, seen by mirror/scale, yet if you really tracked your progress with some advanced body composition methods you'd see progress was faster initially (with any steroid). Winstrol cycles are always longer than Dbol. Why? Because Dbol is stronger, not because Winstrol doesn't start working within hours/minutes.
There's no minimum time to take any steroid. Take a single shot of 300mg a Deca and for a couple of weeks your protein synthesis is greatly elevated. But longer is always better for obvious reasons.
Ummmmmmmmm "greatly elevated"......."first few weeks"................"long time to pile on appreciable gains"........."dbol is stronger than winny"..............listen to you........your post makes absolutely zero sense from a physiological or pharmaceutical perspective. ::)
-
Winstrol cycles are longer because dbol is more toxic on the liver
-
Ummmmmmmmm "greatly elevated"......."first few weeks"................"long time to pile on appreciable gains"........."dbol is stronger than winny"..............listen to you........your post makes absolutely zero sense from a physiological or pharmaceutical perspective. ::)
Please explain what you're opposed to exactly.
A shot of Deca greatly elevates protein synthesis. Fact. Just because protein synthesis is greatly elevated doesn't mean you put on 5lbs of pure muscle tissue in a week. Protein synthesis could be increased by several hundred percent yet it wouldn't necessarily register on a scale in a few days or even weeks.
Dbol is seen as a stronger anabolic than Winstrol by the majority of people. Sure, there may be more water retention with Dbol but fact remains, most consider Dbol "stronger". Quick "gains" is why short Dbol cycles are considered adequate by many.
Do you consider Winstrol a stronger anabolic than Dbol?
LBM gain is always the fastest in the beginning of administration of any steroid. Do you disagree? Have any data support the opposite?
I'm reminded of how you're also supposed to take Test Enanthate for at least 12 or 16 or whatever weeks and how it doesn't even start working until 4 or 5 weeks in. There was this great study, which I've posted here before, where they immobilized test subject for 4 weeks. Isocaloric diet. Gave them T3 to increase catabolism further from the immobilization while administering 200mg of TE per week. In 4 weeks these subject put on 4-5lbs of lbm while dropping about the same in bodyfat. Only 4 shots of test! Hey, I thought TE doesn't even "kick in" until 4-5 weeks in? ??? ::)
There was even a WADA sponsored study on TE, on how long it would take for measurable gains to manifest at a modest dose. I think already at 3 weeks there were appreciable gains. But I thought it hasn't even started working at that point. ??? ::)
Winstrol cycles are longer because dbol is more toxic on the liver
AFAIAC there is little evidence Dbol is more liver toxic than Winstrol, on a milligram to milligram basis. If you have any data I'd like to see it.
Dbol causes quick weight increases, may increase BP more, may cause painful lower back pumps (which many think is kidney pain) etc, which many ignorant people equate with straight out toxicity. "Hey, it's really potent, it must be killing my liver and kidneys."
Of course, Winstrol is notorious for annihilating HDL quickly yet people routinely run it 10-12 weeks, with dosages such as 100mg/day, with not a worry in the world. Why do they do it? Because 4 weeks on Winstrol wont do nearly as much as Dbol as far as changing your physique. Personally I'd much rather do Dbol than Winstrol for 4 months straight.
-
There was even a WADA sponsored study on TE, on how long it would take for measurable gains to manifest at a modest dose. I think already at 3 weeks there were appreciable gains. But I thought it hasn't even started working at that point. ??? ::)
Here it is. You can clearly gain doing short cycles with "long acting" compounds.
J Strength Cond Res. 2007 May;21(2):354-61.
The effect of short-term use of testosterone enanthate on muscular strength and power in healthy young men.
Rogerson S, Weatherby RP, Deakin GB, Meir RA, Coutts RA, Zhou S, Marshall-Gradisnik SM.
School of Exercise and Sport Management, Southern Cross University, Lismore, New Wales, Australia. srogerson10@bigpond.com
Abstract
Use of testosterone enanthate has been shown to significantly increase strength within 6-12 weeks of administration (2, 9), however, it is unclear if the ergogenic benefits are evident in less than 6 weeks. Testosterone enanthate is classified as a prohibited substance by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and its use may be detected by way of the urinary testosterone/epitestosterone (T/E) ratio (16). The two objectives of this study were to establish (a) if injection of 3.5 mg.kg(-1) testosterone enanthate once per week could increase muscular strength and cycle sprint performance in 3-6 weeks; and (b) if the WADA-imposed urinary T/E ratio of 4:1 could identify all subjects being administered 3.5 mg.kg(-1) testosterone enanthate. Sixteen healthy young men were match-paired and were assigned randomly in a double-blind manner to either a testosterone enanthate or a placebo group. All subjects performed a structured heavy resistance training program while receiving either testosterone enanthate (3.5 mg.kg(-1)) or saline injections once weekly for 6 weeks. One repetition maximum (1RM) strength measures and 10-second cycle sprint performance were monitored at the pre (week 0), mid (week 3), and post (week 6) time points. Body mass and the urinary T/E ratio were measured at the pre (week 0) and post (week 6) time points. When compared with baseline (pre), 1RM bench press strength and total work during the cycle sprint increased significantly at week 3 (p < 0.01) and week 6 (p < 0.01) in the testosterone enanthate group, but not in the placebo group. Body mass at week 6 was significantly greater than at baseline in the testosterone enanthate group (p < 0.01), but not in the placebo group. Despite the clear ergogenic effects of testosterone enanthate in as little as 3 weeks, 4 of the 9 subjects in the testosterone enanthate group ( approximately 44%) did not test positive to testosterone under current WADA urinary T/E ratio criteria.
PMID: 17530941
This at a dose where many didn't even test positive.
-
My liver enzymes are elevated more while on dbol..iv checked my enzymes while on winstrol as well...both times were at 50mgs...so in my experience dbol is more toxic
-
Here it is. You can clearly gain doing short cycles with "long acting" compounds.
This at a dose where many didn't even test positive.
Dude in studies like that a "Significant" increase in 1RM bench press could have been 5 lbs. ::) The article doesn't say anything about how much actual muscular hypertrophy took place, what specific increases in body weight and poundages were seen etc. In other words a worthless study. Maybe if you read the whole study and not the abstract it might give some more details. But for argument sakes it's pretty worthless information in just the abstract.
-
Dude in studies like that a "Significant" increase in 1RM bench press could have been 5 lbs. ::) The article doesn't say anything about how much actual muscular hypertrophy took place, what specific increases in body weight and poundages were seen etc. In other words a worthless study. Maybe if you read the whole study and not the abstract it might give some more details. But for argument sakes it's pretty worthless information in just the abstract.
OK, whatever. Forget the study.
Which part of what I said earlier do you disagree with and why?
You don't think Deca works at all if used for short periods of time? It doesn't work from the first injection?
You don't think Dbol is a stronger anabolic than Winstrol?
You don't think gains are fastest at the beginning of any cycle?
You've made no argument. Let's hear it.
-
OK, whatever. Forget the study.
Which part of what I said earlier do you disagree with and why?
You don't think Deca works at all if used for short periods of time? It doesn't work from the first injection?
You don't think Dbol is a stronger anabolic than Winstrol?
You don't think gains are fastest at the beginning of any cycle?
You've made no argument. Let's hear it.
Every thing you say is "relative". Yes dbol is stronger than winny. But is it BETTER at producing solid gains i.e. fat free muscle mass? No it's not. You get a lot of androgenic sides. Because although it is more anabolic it is also more androgenic.
No I don't think "gains" are fastest at the beginning of a cycle. Effects are not the same as gains unless you mean oily skin, acne, increased sex drive. In my experience and THOUSANDS who cycle for years on end it takes more than a few weeks to build quality muscle. And because most steroids have a half life it is right around the 3-4 week mark that sometihng like Test E really starts to kick in. Yes deca may increase protein synthesis in the first week or two but "greatly" is a very ambiguous term and it's completely subjective. It takes several weeks i.e. 4-5 weeks for many to really start seeingthe muscle building effects of deca.
What you're saying is similar to you will build muscle the first time you workout. Well duh...........of course you will. But it will be at the microscopic barely noticeable level. After months and months of working out do you really start to see your physique change and muscle being added to your frame.
-
Every thing you say is "relative". Yes dbol is stronger than winny. But is it BETTER at producing solid gains i.e. fat free muscle mass? No it's not. You get a lot of androgenic sides. Because although it is more anabolic it is also more androgenic.
No I don't think "gains" are fastest at the beginning of a cycle. Effects are not the same as gains unless you mean oily skin, acne, increased sex drive. In my experience and THOUSANDS who cycle for years on end it takes more than a few weeks to build quality muscle. And because most steroids have a half life it is right around the 3-4 week mark that sometihng like Test E really starts to kick in. Yes deca may increase protein synthesis in the first week or two but "greatly" is a very ambiguous term and it's completely subjective. It takes several weeks i.e. 4-5 weeks for many to really start seeingthe muscle building effects of deca.
What you're saying is similar to you will build muscle the first time you workout. Well duh...........of course you will. But it will be at the microscopic barely noticeable level. After months and months of working out do you really start to see your physique change and muscle being added to your frame.
x2 I've researched Deca is best used at 12-15 weeks...
NPP on the other hand, gains can be seen after 1 week. Needs to be shot EOD, but make sure you have some caber/prami on hand to combat prolactin sides
-
Every thing you say is "relative". Yes dbol is stronger than winny. But is it BETTER at producing solid gains i.e. fat free muscle mass? No it's not. You get a lot of androgenic sides. Because although it is more anabolic it is also more androgenic.
No I don't think "gains" are fastest at the beginning of a cycle. Effects are not the same as gains unless you mean oily skin, acne, increased sex drive. In my experience and THOUSANDS who cycle for years on end it takes more than a few weeks to build quality muscle. And because most steroids have a half life it is right around the 3-4 week mark that sometihng like Test E really starts to kick in. Yes deca may increase protein synthesis in the first week or two but "greatly" is a very ambiguous term and it's completely subjective. It takes several weeks i.e. 4-5 weeks for many to really start seeingthe muscle building effects of deca.
What you're saying is similar to you will build muscle the first time you workout. Well duh...........of course you will. But it will be at the microscopic barely noticeable level. After months and months of working out do you really start to see your physique change and muscle being added to your frame.
Longer cycles are better than shorter ones of course. But the laying down of new protein material is greatest when you introduce a new drug. It only makes sense. Since you mention training, yes it's exactly the same. After one workout you don't notice much but the response is the greatest when you introduce a new stimuli.
x2 I've researched Deca is best used at 12-15 weeks...
NPP on the other hand, gains can be seen after 1 week. Needs to be shot EOD, but make sure you have some caber/prami on hand to combat prolactin sides
Forums are great but they can also be dangerous. There are "truths" that are spread that are nothing but advertisements for new drugs you "need". I'm sure dopaminergics can be effective against some negative effects of Deca for example, but don't forget that these drugs can be a thousand times more dangerous than any steroid as well. Is it needed or is it needed to make money for the guy saying you need this and also happens to sell it? Did Arnold need "prami/caber"?
That nandrolone decanoate takes 4-5 weeks to start working but with NPP "gains can be seen within a week" is ridiculous. Same with TE vs Test Prop. Sure, longer esters may need higher starting dose to achieve same plasma levels since the drug is released completely over a longer period of time but these longer acting drugs start working immediately, just like test prop or NPP. Actually, TE raises plasma test faster than test prop (Emeric Delszeg actually taught me this as I didn't believe it but I checked the data and he was right). I also checked Schering's data on TE half-life (Testoviron literature) and they say something like just 2.3-4.5 days.
-
I think as bodybuilders etc we judge what we see in the mirror or see performence in the gym and gauge this as how fast a drug works.
Mez regarding using deca for extended periods , nandralone was prescribed as a birth control for men back in the 80s I beleive..Now Ive known plenty of guys who have got there gf's wifes etc pregnant while on gear , was deca in there stacks ? who knows but if you want to get a girl preggers in "may" lower sperm count if Aussie GP's handing it out as birth control are anything to go by .
-
I think as bodybuilders etc we judge what we see in the mirror or see performence in the gym and gauge this as how fast a drug works.
Say you take a good dose of a long acting drug such as Deca or Test E, after having been clean for some time. How long until you can see changes on the scale for example? I know I can see and feel changes very quickly but I just asked a competitive bb who's been juicing for 15 years this question: how quickly do you notice a "big" change in your physique after starting Test E? He said about 2 weeks. Scale moves up even in the first week. Also said Tren causes a visual change within days, and I believe it's not just because it's a short ester but because it's such a strong hormone period.
From what I've seen and experienced, if a drug hasn't done anything in the first month it's not going to suddenly start working week 4 or 5.
I haven't seen too many people use Deca only but I remember one guy who did 6 amps of Extrabolin. One amp a week. He was really skinny to start, not a bb but a martial artist. There was a pretty huge visual change in those 6 weeks. For him this was a very effective first cycle.
-
is deca liver toxic?
-
vanbilderass on an ass whipping streak yet again ;D
-
Say you take a good dose of a long acting drug such as Deca or Test E, after having been clean for some time. How long until you can see changes on the scale for example? I know I can see and feel changes very quickly but I just asked a competitive bb who's been juicing for 15 years this question: how quickly do you notice a "big" change in your physique after starting Test E? He said about 2 weeks. Scale moves up even in the first week. Also said Tren causes a visual change within days, and I believe it's not just because it's a short ester but because it's such a strong hormone period.
From what I've seen and experienced, if a drug hasn't done anything in the first month it's not going to suddenly start working week 4 or 5.
I haven't seen too many people use Deca only but I remember one guy who did 6 amps of Extrabolin. One amp a week. He was really skinny to start, not a bb but a martial artist. There was a pretty huge visual change in those 6 weeks. For him this was a very effective first cycle.
I wasnt disagreeing with you ;D 2 weeks usely with test e but I never come off , always on 250mg cruise but within 2 weeks If I increase Il be fuller etc.
Tren A for me is with in 2 - 3 days , but interesting what you say about the ester and the stronger hormone because even if using the Tren Enan its by the end of first week so alot quicker than test E that shares the same ester