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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on October 01, 2010, 06:17:49 PM

Title: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 01, 2010, 06:17:49 PM
Not sure what I think about this.

Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
By Joseph Bland
Published October 01, 2010
FoxNews.com
 
Attention, videogamers. You can't be the Taliban anymore.

The videogame manufacturer Electronic Arts, bowing to strong criticism from U.S. military officials and veterans organizations, made changes Friday to “Medal of Honor,” the newest installment in its series of American-based war games.

Set in modern-day Afghanistan, “Medal of Honor” had been designed to allow players to take on the role of the Taliban in its multiplayer mode, and to kill American soldiers -- a capability that came under withering fire from military officials and U.S. veterans.

The Army & Air Force Exchange Service went so far as to request that American military bases not stock it.

"Out of respect to those we serve, we will not be stocking this game," Maj. Gen. Bruce Casella, the service's commanding officer, said in an interview. "We regret any inconvenience this may cause authorized shoppers, but are optimistic that they will understand the sensitivity to the life and death scenarios this product presents as entertainment."

On Friday, the gaming company waved the white flag.

“We changed the name of the opposing team in the multiplayer mode,” said Electronic Arts publicist Amanda Taggart. “Now the opposing team is called ‘opposing forces.’”

The game's executive producer, Greg Goodrich, also addressed critics and war officials on the "Medal of Honor" blog Friday morning, saying, “This franchise will never willfully disrespect, intentionally or otherwise, your memory and service.”

The changes are exclusive to the multiplayer mode, Taggart noted. “Game-play, environment, characters and weapons are exactly the same” in the single-player game, she said, meaning the player, who is always on the American side, can kill the Taliban to his heart's content.

Videogames that deal with war and combat have elicited disdain from some war veteran organizations, including AMVETS, an organization dedicated to accommodating American soldiers.

“We’ve heard from vets about games in the past that deal with wars,” Deputy National Communications Director Ryan Galucci said. “And products like this trivialize combat.”

“Medal of Honor” isn’t the first game to spark controversy for allowing players to control nationally recognized American enemies. “Call of Duty: Modern Warfare II,” a game developed by Activision, allowed players to control Taliban-like forces, though they didn’t bear the actual name.

Activision satisfied its critics by offering to donate a portion of their profits from the game to the Call of Duty Endowment, which benefits veterans.

Galucci suggested that Electronic Arts should do the same.

“There’s a way for EA to turn this into a positive experience," he said. “They can ... donate a share of their income from the game to veterans.”

Set for an Oct. 12 release, “Medal of Honor” has already reached the highest number of pre-sale units sold in the franchise’s 11-year history, Electronic Arts said.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/10/01/medal-honor-makes-changes-allowing-players-control-taliban/
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Cy Tolliver on October 01, 2010, 06:22:57 PM
just a video game idiots  ;D

just a game
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 01, 2010, 06:26:42 PM
That's one way to look at it.  Another is we have soldiers dying in Afghanistan, some being killed by the Taliban. 

I'd be opposed to government intervention/censorship, but you gotta wonder what the designers were thinking when they created this option. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Cy Tolliver on October 01, 2010, 06:30:09 PM
That's one way to look at it.  Another is we have soldiers dying in Afghanistan, some being killed by the Taliban. 

I'd be opposed to government intervention/censorship, but you gotta wonder what the designers were thinking when they created this option. 

so sending real life soldiers off to die for economic/strategic interests is fine but playing as the "enemy" in some video game is not...

huh
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 01, 2010, 06:34:59 PM
so sending real life soldiers off to die for economic/strategic interests is fine but playing as the "enemy" in some video game is not...

huh

?  We put our volunteer force in harm's way, but that has nothing to with this issue. 

You have to put yourself in the shoes of the family members who lost loved ones at the hands of the Taliban, the service members still in harm's way, veterans, etc.  I'm not sure I agree they should stop making the game, but I do understand why people would have a problem with it. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Deicide on October 01, 2010, 06:54:11 PM
That's one way to look at it.  Another is we have soldiers dying in Afghanistan, some being killed by the Taliban. 

I'd be opposed to government intervention/censorship, but you gotta wonder what the designers were thinking when they created this option. 

Actually you gotta wonder why we invaded Afghanistan and why we are still there...nigh 10 years on.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Cy Tolliver on October 01, 2010, 06:59:22 PM
Actually you gotta wonder why we invaded Afghanistan and why we are still there...nigh 10 years on.

were to concerned with video games to care about something like that...................  ::)
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 01, 2010, 07:00:13 PM
Actually you gotta wonder why we invaded Afghanistan and why we are still there...nigh 10 years on.

We know exactly why we invaded Afghanistan, which also has zero to do with this issue. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Cy Tolliver on October 01, 2010, 07:04:00 PM
We know exactly why we invaded Afghanistan, which also has zero to do with this issue. 

why did we

terrorism exists globally but we decided to fight it in little old afghanistan and irak, huh i wonder why that is  ;D
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Deicide on October 01, 2010, 07:08:28 PM
We know exactly why we invaded Afghanistan, which also has zero to do with this issue. 

I disagree. We don't know why; lots of theories but no one knows for sure.

It's just a video game anyway...
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 01, 2010, 07:25:42 PM
I disagree. We don't know why; lots of theories but no one knows for sure.

It's just a video game anyway...

The Taliban hosted Al Qaeda and allowed them to use Afghanistan as a training ground for terrorist attacks, including the 911 attacks.  Bin Laden, the 911 mastermind, was in Afghanistan.  Those aren't theories.     

It's a game, but that's only part of the analysis.   
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Deicide on October 01, 2010, 07:27:50 PM
The Taliban hosted Al Qaeda and allowed them to use Afghanistan as a training ground for terrorist attacks, including the 911 attacks.  Bin Laden, the 911 mastermind, was in Afghanistan.  Those aren't theories.     

It's a game, but that's only part of the analysis.   

And why are we still there?
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 01, 2010, 07:28:59 PM
And why are we still there?

Good question.  I'm not sure what our current military objective is. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Arnold jr on October 01, 2010, 07:40:06 PM
Wait a minute, the Taliban is part of lunatic Islam, doesnt that mean Hugo should move this to the Religious board, lol!?!

To the point, no, the government has no right to censor the game, they didn't try to and that's good. On another note, it is of very low class for the designers and manufacturers of the game to set it up the way they did. How about a game called "Medal of Honor: NYC" you can be the terrorist flying into the WTC. Same difference and it's pretty low.

To those who keep bringing up that this is a stupid argument, sure, it's not nearly as important as other things but it's still something to talk about...please, take your medicine.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: 240 is Back on October 02, 2010, 05:36:51 AM
RPF bringing the brilliance on this thread.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 02, 2010, 05:51:10 AM
Wait a minute, the Taliban is part of lunatic Islam, doesnt that mean Hugo should move this to the Religious board, lol!?!

To the point, no, the government has no right to censor the game, they didn't try to and that's good. On another note, it is of very low class for the designers and manufacturers of the game to set it up the way they did. How about a game called "Medal of Honor: NYC" you can be the terrorist flying into the WTC. Same difference and it's pretty low.

To those who keep bringing up that this is a stupid argument, sure, it's not nearly as important as other things but it's still something to talk about...please, take your medicine.
keep taking what I said out of context.  If that's what makes you happy ::)
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Montague on October 02, 2010, 06:47:46 AM
Good question.  I'm not sure what our current military objective is.  


Ask our current prez.
How many additional troops did he deploy there after "promising" to get us out of that region (along with the rest of his laundry list of miracles)?


I'm with A.J.
I'd hate to see govt. censorship over a lousy video game - that's simple 1st Ammendment rights.
By the same token, I think it's extremely poor judgement/taste for anyone to make a game with options like those.
Arnold's NYC-version analogy illustrates that ethos perfectly.

This is, yet, another example of something that seems to tie into the argument, "just because you have a right to do something doesn't make it the right/good thing to do."

Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 02, 2010, 07:08:16 AM
Who the hell cares?  GTA series is one of the best games ever and popping off cops is one of the best parts of the game. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 07:38:17 AM
Well, considering that I help make this game, and you can look for me on the credits, I can give you some insight.

We are making a modern day combat game... It takes place in Afghanistan. So your factions can only be 2 choices.

You're either US forces, or you're Taliban.

It's pretty simple... It's just about being authentic in the game. Nothing else.

So now we have to change the name to "Opposition Forces", which is stupid... YOU ALL KNOW it's the fucking Taliban... isn't it the context not the words?

I can't believe EA is caving in to this... Stupid corporate crap.

It's absolutely retarded... If you play a WW2 shooter and you have to be the Nazi's does anyone bitch? No... It's the same damn thing.

People need to
(http://www.onelargeprawn.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2010/Harden_the_fuck_up.jpg)
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 02, 2010, 07:52:15 AM
Its just more nonsense.  I am against any censorship whatsoever unless it involves kids. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 08:00:03 AM
We already have a Rated: M rating on the game... so if kids get it, then that's on their parents.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Bindare_Dundat on October 02, 2010, 09:01:33 AM
That's one way to look at it.  Another is we have soldiers dying in Afghanistan, some being killed by the Taliban. 

I'd be opposed to government intervention/censorship, but you gotta wonder what the designers were thinking when they created this option. 

They were thinking individuals would be smart enough to tell the difference between a game and real life but sadly they underestimated the stupidity of some. Its no different then Looney Tunes cartoons that are totally edited now becasue todays retarded kids seems to have forgotten that blowing the bill off a drawn duck is not the same as putting a gun to your own face and pulling the trigger.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Bindare_Dundat on October 02, 2010, 09:08:16 AM
Good question.  I'm not sure what our current military objective is.  


What a joke of an excuse.

Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Bindare_Dundat on October 02, 2010, 09:26:59 AM
Well, considering that I help make this game, and you can look for me on the credits, I can give you some insight.

We are making a modern day combat game... It takes place in Afghanistan. So your factions can only be 2 choices.

You're either US forces, or you're Taliban.

It's pretty simple... It's just about being authentic in the game. Nothing else.

So now we have to change the name to "Opposition Forces", which is stupid... YOU ALL KNOW it's the fucking Taliban... isn't it the context not the words?

I can't believe EA is caving in to this... Stupid corporate crap.

It's absolutely retarded... If you play a WW2 shooter and you have to be the Nazi's does anyone bitch? No... It's the same damn thing.

People need to
(http://www.onelargeprawn.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2010/Harden_the_fuck_up.jpg)


How did you contribute?
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Skip8282 on October 02, 2010, 10:18:49 AM
I'm not sure what our current military objective is. 



Basically to maintain security, train the Afghan security force, and help with the government until we begin withdrawl in July 2011.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 10:45:37 AM
How did you contribute?

I'm the senior infrastructure engineer for the Los Angeles studio involved with build pipeline and source control asset management.

There's a lot that goes into it.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Fury on October 02, 2010, 11:41:26 AM
People were pissing and moaning when MW2 put you in the role of a terrorist carrying out a massacre at a Russian airport last year. All 10 minutes of it.  ::)
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 11:44:48 AM
They were thinking individuals would be smart enough to tell the difference between a game and real life but sadly they underestimated the stupidity of some. Its no different then Looney Tunes cartoons that are totally edited now becasue todays retarded kids seems to have forgotten that blowing the bill off a drawn duck is not the same as putting a gun to your own face and pulling the trigger.

Kids aren't the ones complaining.  It's the military and families of those in harm's way.  Has nothing to do with intelligence IMO.  It's really about the limits of compassion and common sense. 

Actually, there is an intelligence component.  The people designing the game should have been smart enough to foresee how this could impact various segments of the community. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 11:45:49 AM

What a joke of an excuse.



I was discussing with a friend the other day.  I think we should identify the grids with the drug fields and burn/blow them up. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 11:46:44 AM


Basically to maintain security, train the Afghan security force, and help with the government until we begin withdrawl in July 2011.

So we're essentially a police force.   :-\ 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Arnold jr on October 02, 2010, 12:40:06 PM
keep taking what I said out of context.  If that's what makes you happy ::)

Dude, just giving you a hard time.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Cy Tolliver on October 02, 2010, 12:40:55 PM
So we're essentially a police force.   :-\ 

Wonder if you and your church feel like horses ass's yet for supporting this war?
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: 240 is Back on October 02, 2010, 12:46:54 PM
drugs are a vital part of the world.  grow up everyone, and accept that.  the $ keeps the financial system afloat, and let's be honest, it's a very safe idea to have a good number of the world's population - uneducated, angry, stupid, whatever - doped up 24/7.

I feel like only mental children can't accept the role drugs play in the world.  Acting like drugs had nothing to do with the invasion - Bah, fools!   A great financial resource and ppl mgmt tool.  Deal with it.  Drugs are a useful part of how the world works.  man up.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Cy Tolliver on October 02, 2010, 12:50:16 PM
drugs are a vital part of the world.  grow up everyone, and accept that.  the $ keeps the financial system afloat, and let's be honest, it's a very safe idea to have a good number of the world's population - uneducated, angry, stupid, whatever - doped up 24/7.

I feel like only mental children can't accept the role drugs play in the world.  Acting like drugs had nothing to do with the invasion - Bah, fools!   A great financial resource and ppl mgmt tool.  Deal with it.  Drugs are a useful part of how the world works.  man up.

your posts are seriously refreshing, thank you  ;D
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 12:57:27 PM
Wonder if you and your church feel like horses ass's yet for supporting this war?

I supported the war and still believe we made the right decision to invade.  I have no idea what "my church" thinks about the war. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Deicide on October 02, 2010, 12:58:42 PM
I supported the war and still believe we made the right decision to invade.  I have no idea what "my church" thinks about the war. 

Beach Bum, if our president said 'Spain is a bad country, we are invading them', you would support it because you question nothing.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Cy Tolliver on October 02, 2010, 01:02:42 PM
Beach Bum, if our president said 'Spain is a bad country, we are invading them', you would support it because you question nothing.

him and the entire "born again" population of the US....  :-X
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Arnold jr on October 02, 2010, 02:32:16 PM
Beach Bum, if our president said 'Spain is a bad country, we are invading them', you would support it because you question nothing.

Invading was the right move, how it has been handled has been horrible. Justice should be swift but we are caught up so deeply in "hurting feelings" global perception and cowering to the 20% of the population that is on the far-left...yes, it's only 20%, this is a fact...but we're so caught up in those things that we continually cause more harm and disarray to ourselves than needed. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Arnold jr on October 02, 2010, 02:33:22 PM
him and the entire "born again" population of the US....  :-X

I'm honestly not sure what this is supposed to even mean??????????????????????????
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Cy Tolliver on October 02, 2010, 02:46:20 PM
I'm honestly not sure what this is supposed to even mean??????????????????????????

The religious right almost unanimously supported these immoral wars in the Middle East...

Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Arnold jr on October 02, 2010, 02:49:31 PM
The religious right almost unanimously supported these immoral wars in the Middle East...



Funny, the vote in congress to invade was a resounding "Yes" by both sides of the aisle.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 02, 2010, 03:03:23 PM
Funny, the vote in congress to invade was a resounding "Yes" by both sides of the aisle.

Saddam did everything possible to invite an attack. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Arnold jr on October 02, 2010, 03:07:39 PM
Saddam did everything possible to invite an attack. 

Pretty much everything short of saying "Please Attack, the keys to the palace are under the mat."
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: 240 is Back on October 02, 2010, 03:08:38 PM
i thought he let the UN inspectors go anywhere they wanted?

then we attacked AFTER finding no WMD?
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 03:32:55 PM
Kids aren't the ones complaining.  It's the military and families of those in harm's way.  Has nothing to do with intelligence IMO.  It's really about the limits of compassion and common sense. 

Actually, there is an intelligence component.  The people designing the game should have been smart enough to foresee how this could impact various segments of the community. 

The people who don't like, don't buy the game.

That's what capitalism is all about right?

It's the biggest pre-sale in the history of the franchise BECAUSE we did stuff like this... You don't like it, don't buy it.

VERY simple to understand basic capitalist economics.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: 240 is Back on October 02, 2010, 03:34:00 PM
i like the fact the company made the decision without govt intervention.

Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 03:36:36 PM
i like the fact the company made the decision without govt intervention.



I'm pissed JR caved.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 02, 2010, 03:41:31 PM
I'm pissed JR caved.

I have to ask - can you get me a free copy?   ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Deicide on October 02, 2010, 04:19:56 PM
I hate to complain but I feel that Bioware game production suffers under EA. Too many rush jobs, games come out bugged. Anyway...ME2 is probably the best game I ever played so...still kudos.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 04:23:19 PM
I hate to complain but I feel that Bioware game production suffers under EA. Too many rush jobs, games come out bugged. Anyway...ME2 is probably the best game I ever played so...still kudos.

Contrary to popular belief... EA will not "rush" a game. We have had games in development for 4+ years.

You put ship dates on things when they hit alpha because the team needs something to shoot for.

That's just reality... If a team needs more time to put out a better product and they show they are moving forward, EA will push the ship out.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 02, 2010, 04:26:59 PM
To me GTA Vice City is still the best game of all time. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 04:28:30 PM
Beach Bum, if our president said 'Spain is a bad country, we are invading them', you would support it because you question nothing.

Decide, I am down for invading Spain.  Would greatly expand the pool of beautiful women for my son, who will need a wife one day.  Would also like the food. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 02, 2010, 04:30:04 PM
Decide, I am down for invading Spain.  Would greatly expand the pool of beautiful women for my son, who will need a wife one day.  Would also like the food. 

They did a green eneregy push which left them bankrupt.  Seem ripe for invasion.  The lost 2.2 jobs for every so called green job.   
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 04:30:45 PM
To me GTA Vice City is still the best game of all time.  

That's the only GTA I even like really.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 02, 2010, 04:33:49 PM
That's the only GTA I even like really.

Between the story line, the weaving of scarface, goodfellas, the 1980's, Carlito's Way, 80's metal and rock, the use of colors in the landscape, the dialogue, it just had everything.  The sound track was amazing too.   

I like GTA 4 since its NYC and I live breathe and sleep NYC since i live here, but its still not Vice City.  GTA 4 lacks the feel of NYC that Vice City had.  Its hard to describe. 

     
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 04:34:56 PM
drugs are a vital part of the world.  grow up everyone, and accept that.  the $ keeps the financial system afloat, and let's be honest, it's a very safe idea to have a good number of the world's population - uneducated, angry, stupid, whatever - doped up 24/7.

I feel like only mental children can't accept the role drugs play in the world.  Acting like drugs had nothing to do with the invasion - Bah, fools!   A great financial resource and ppl mgmt tool.  Deal with it.  Drugs are a useful part of how the world works.  man up.

O Rly? 

Quote
IMO, the nation as a whole suffers if rampant drug use is present.

I can't support a 2012 candidate who endorses pot use or lax enforcement of drug laws, can you?

Quote
Sounds like a fair compromise.

I'm fine iwth it - it'll get a ton of ppl off anti-depressants.  However, if you smoke and drive, I want your ass in the same situation as if you drank and drive.  None of this "pot doesn't affect judgement" bullshit.

HOWEVER, what about the effects on us, as a nation?
Does Weed affect your IQ?

Yes- the national institute of drug abuse came to the conclusion that smoking marijuana causes cognitive impairments lasting up to 28 days after smoking marijuana.
http://www.drugabuse.gov/NIDA_notes/NNvol18N5/Cognitive.html

Now, we're already not #1 in world education rankings... far from it.  Do we really want to see what happens to our high school scores and college attendance rates if pot is legal?


Quote
You're only drunk for a few hours.  Weed affects your cog abilities for a month.  I don't care if my garbage man uses weed.  But mayor, governor, or even president?  No way!

Yes- the national institute of drug abuse came to the conclusion that smoking marijuana causes cognitive impairments lasting up to 28 days after smoking marijuana.
http://www.drugabuse.gov/NIDA_notes/NNvol18N5/Cognitive.html

Quote
You can google a shitload of pages detailing long term effects of pot.

While all of the long-term effects of marijuana use are not yet known, there are studies showing serious health concerns. For example, a group of scientists in California examined the health status of 450 daily smokers of marijuana but not tobacco. They found that the marijuana smokers had more sick days and more doctor visits for respiratory problems and other types of illness than did a similar group who did not smoke either substance.

Let's look at the long-term $$ costt to America - all those lost work days hurt our GDP and increase healthcare costs as a nation.


Quote
I believe it.  I know so many people who have smoked pot since high school.  They've gotten so much dumber in 15 years.  of course, nobody here who uses on a regular basis will admit it'll dulled them. 

The long-term effects upon our nation, if 100 mil americans decided to just start smoking pot tomorrow, would be insane.  Yes, alcohol and tobacco and prozac are also bad - and people using them to justify legalizing weed is silly.  It's like defending Palin's idiocy by pointing out Obama is doing a terrible job.  :)

Quote
I feel you are misguided on many things, but i agree here.

this is why i oppose legalization of weed.  You'll have ten million idiots smoking pot on their way to work monday morning.  They will be worse drivers, even if only by a small percentage.  That % wil lead to more accidents nationwide.  This can't really be denied.  If you impair the abilities of ten million drivers, a few are going to have accidents.

You can say "it's better than driving drunk"... but that makes no sense.  I can rape a chick and tell the judge "it's better than killing her".  It still has negative consequences.



Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 04:37:33 PM
Invading was the right move, how it has been handled has been horrible. Justice should be swift but we are caught up so deeply in "hurting feelings" global perception and cowering to the 20% of the population that is on the far-left...yes, it's only 20%, this is a fact...but we're so caught up in those things that we continually cause more harm and disarray to ourselves than needed. 

I agree.  I think that is true of both wars.  We didn't go in with nearly a large enough force.  Was talking to a Marine about this a little while back.  He said politics too often interferes with military objectives.  He said if the Marines would have, for example, been in charge of the Iraq war, there would have been higher initial casualties, but it would have been done right.  Swift.  Decisive.  But politicians don't have the stomach for that kind of effort. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 04:38:09 PM
Funny, the vote in congress to invade was a resounding "Yes" by both sides of the aisle.

Correct. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 04:41:37 PM
The people who don't like, don't buy the game.

That's what capitalism is all about right?

It's the biggest pre-sale in the history of the franchise BECAUSE we did stuff like this... You don't like it, don't buy it.

VERY simple to understand basic capitalist economics.

It's not that simple.  It's that kind of thinking that resulted in the game being produced, offending a lot of people, and then being pulled.  You have to evaluate the entire market and those who may not purchase, but might be affected by your product.  It's in large part about being responsible and sensitive the public.  If you take a "screw you" type approach, you wind up doing what this company did.   

This entire scenario is an example of how capitalism works.  A company made a poor decision with its product.  People complained.  The company voluntarily corrected its mistake.  No government intervention. That's how the system should work.   
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 04:42:32 PM
They did a green eneregy push which left them bankrupt.  Seem ripe for invasion.  The lost 2.2 jobs for every so called green job.   

Sign me up.   :)
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 02, 2010, 04:43:33 PM
I have a shirt on today with an anchor and Aircraft carrier and it says "U.S. NavY - America's Big Stick"  

As for the video - who cares - i hope the company sells millions of games.  The U.S. budget needs the revenue.   ;D
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 04:47:40 PM
It's not that simple.  It's that kind of thinking that resulted in the game being produced, offending a lot of people, and then being pulled.  You have to evaluate the entire market and those who may not purchase, but might be affected by your product.  It's in large part about being responsible and sensitive the public.  If you take a "screw you" type approach, you wind up doing what this company did.    

This entire scenario is an example of how capitalism works.  A company made a poor decision with its product.  People complained.  The company voluntarily corrected its mistake.  No government intervention. That's how the system should work.    

The game wasn't "pulled"

What the hell are you talking about?

Do you think that grand theft auto 3 /Vice City / San Andreas didn't have cops and law enforcement, especially those that were killed in the line of duty bitching?

You bet your ass they did... They raised a shit storm. They didn't care though and Grand Theft Auto 4 sold 600 Million dollars worth in the first week.

The scenario is NOT how capitalism works... Because the product wasn't released and they caved to a SMALL group of whiners. Once again, it's the minority making rules for everyone else.

Squeaky wheel getting the grease again.

Sometimes I wonder if you really believe the stuff coming out of your mouth Beach.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 02, 2010, 04:50:13 PM
The game wasn't "pulled"

What the hell are you talking about?

Do you think that grand theft auto 3 /Vice City / San Andreas didn't have cops and law enforcement, especially those that were killed in the line of duty bitching?

You bet your ass they did... They raised a shit storm. They didn't care though and Grand Theft Auto 4 sold 600 Million dollars worth in the first week.

The scenario is NOT how capitalism works... Because the product wasn't released and they caved to a SMALL group of whiners. Once again, it's the minority making rules for everyone else.

Squeaky wheel getting the grease again.

Sometimes I wonder if you really believe the stuff coming out of your mouth Beach.

GTA 4 got way too repetitive and did not capture the feel of NYC the way Vice City did Miami and the 1980's.   I liked GTA 4, and liked the graphics, but was dissapointed in the charachters and overall feel of the game. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 04:52:01 PM
GTA 4 got way too repetitive and did not capture the feel of NYC the way Vice City did Miami and the 1980's.   I liked GTA 4, and liked the graphics, but was dissapointed in the charachters and overall feel of the game. 

I think the maps were far too big and the character development left a lot to be desired. The story just didn't grab me.

That's always my issue with games. If the story sucks, then I lose interest.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 02, 2010, 04:56:48 PM
I think the maps were far too big and the character development left a lot to be desired. The story just didn't grab me.

That's always my issue with games. If the story sucks, then I lose interest.

Exactly, after awhile I was just like "What's the point of continuing with this"? 

Don't get me wrong - i love grabbing the rocket launchers and sniper rifle and going to tall builidng and taking out hundreds of cops and FBI and watching expliosions spark other explosuions and causing chain reactions of murder and mayhem, but after awhile, its dissappointing.

Another game i thoughtly enjoyed throughtout was the original Vegas game with the Swat Team - that rocked and I can play that many times over. 

Same with COD multiplayer.   
 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 04:57:11 PM
The game wasn't "pulled"

What the hell are you talking about?

Do you think that grand theft auto 3 /Vice City / San Andreas didn't have cops and law enforcement, especially those that were killed in the line of duty bitching?

You bet your ass they did... They raised a shit storm. They didn't care though and Grand Theft Auto 4 sold 600 Million dollars worth in the first week.

The scenario is NOT how capitalism works... Because the product wasn't released and they caved to a SMALL group of whiners. Once again, it's the minority making rules for everyone else.

Squeaky wheel getting the grease again.

Sometimes I wonder if you really believe the stuff coming out of your mouth Beach.

My bad.  Not "pulled."  Changed.  And they apologized.  Smart move.  

The fact you can't see that this is a problem, and you actually work for the company, only explains why the company made a mistake in the first place.  If you can't look at the results and see what a poor marketing move this was, then I can't help you.  

It's pretty silly to call the families of people who lost loved ones and our men and women in uniform "whiners," but like I said, that's the mentality that caused this mistake in the first place.  
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 05:09:21 PM
My bad.  Not "pulled."  Changed.  And they apologized.  Smart move. 

The fact you can't see that this is a problem, and you actually work for the company, only explains why the company made a mistake in the first place.  If you can't look at the results and see what a poor marketing move this was, then I can't help you. 

It's pretty silly to call the families of people who lost loved ones and our men and women in uniform "whiners," but like I said, that's the mentality that caused this mistake in the first place.   
They are in fact "whiners".

No one bitches about being a Nazi during a WW2 game.

Waaaaah... Waaaaah.

Aren't the conservatives supposed to be the hard ones? The ones that don't complain?

Harden the fuck up!
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 05:19:28 PM
They are in fact "whiners".

No one bitches about being a Nazi during a WW2 game.

Waaaaah... Waaaaah.

Aren't the conservatives supposed to be the hard ones? The ones that don't complain?

Harden the fuck up!

On what basis do you conclude the people who complained are conservatives? 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 02, 2010, 05:24:02 PM
They are in fact "whiners".

No one bitches about being a Nazi during a WW2 game.

Waaaaah... Waaaaah.

Aren't the conservatives supposed to be the hard ones? The ones that don't complain?

Harden the fuck up!

Can't speak for others- but I am against 99% of censorship awnd think people railing against video games, muasic, movies, etc are really out of line. 

If you don't like it - don't buy it or watch.   
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 05:31:00 PM
Can't speak for others- but I am against 99% of censorship awnd think people railing against video games, muasic, movies, etc are really out of line. 

If you don't like it - don't buy it or watch.   

Me too.  But this wasn't censorship. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 02, 2010, 05:38:26 PM
Dude, just giving you a hard time.
well then I can live with that ;D
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Deicide on October 02, 2010, 05:49:21 PM
Decide, I am down for invading Spain.  Would greatly expand the pool of beautiful women for my son, who will need a wife one day.  Would also like the food. 

With any luck he will be gay.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 05:57:27 PM
On what basis do you conclude the people who complained are conservatives?  

I'm saying you're whining and you are a conservative aren't you?

Hell, I would also say that most people who are conservative are in law enforcement and the military.

You disagree?
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 06:28:24 PM
I'm saying you're whining and you are a conservative aren't you?

Hell, I would also say that most people who are conservative are in law enforcement and the military.

You disagree?

I'm an American.  And I'm not the one complaining.  The game doesn't really bother me.  What I'm saying is I understand why those who did complain had a problem with the game, for the reasons I've already stated.  So, stop trying to make this about me and look at the actual facts.  The problem here is the company's lack of foresight; not looking at the big picture. 

Most conservatives are in law enforcement and the military?  News to me.  That doesn't leave many people to help run the rest of the country. 

In any event, your beef is with the people who complained, not with me.  And I understand you have no empathy for folks who complained.  Not a big deal.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Deicide on October 02, 2010, 06:29:44 PM
I'm saying you're whining and you are a conservative aren't you?

Hell, I would also say that most people who are conservative are in law enforcement and the military.

You disagree?

There is nothing conservative about conservatives. They care about all the little issues like gay marriage, a woman in a dress on Sesame Street, whether you can play the Taliban in a video game, etc. They don't really stand for anything (not that liberals do either) except for religious pigheadedness.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 06:30:28 PM
I'm an American.  And I'm not the one complaining.  The game doesn't really bother me.  What I'm saying is I understand why those who did complain had a problem with the game, for the reasons I've already stated.  So, stop trying to make this about me and look at the actual facts.  The problem here is the company's lack of foresight; not looking at the big picture.  

Most conservatives are in law enforcement and the military?  News to me.  That doesn't leave many people to help run the rest of the country.  

In any event, your beef is with the people who complained, not with me.  And I understand you have no empathy for folks who complained.  Not a big deal.

Of course I meant that the majority of people in law enforcement and military are conservative... Obviously.

Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 02, 2010, 06:38:01 PM
Of course I meant that the majority of people in law enforcement and military are conservative... Obviously.



That obviously isn't what you said.  But so what?  The majority of the country is conservative. 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 07:00:55 PM
That obviously isn't what you said.  But so what?  The majority of the country is conservative.  

According to whom?
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Arnold jr on October 02, 2010, 10:55:46 PM
According to whom?

Gallup in poll in 2009 showed 40% of Americans identified themselves as conservative, 35% as moderate and 21% as liberal. I would be willing to bet those numbers of conservatives is up slightly now but this is the most recent poll I could find. Regardless, liberals are far outnumbered.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/conservatives-single-largest-ideological-group.aspx
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 10:58:54 PM
Gallup in poll in 2009 showed 40% of Americans identified themselves as conservative, 35% as moderate and 21% as liberal. I would be willing to bet those numbers of conservatives is up slightly now but this is the most recent poll I could find. Regardless, liberals are far outnumbered.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/conservatives-single-largest-ideological-group.aspx

That doesn't sound like 1/2 and it's less than those that consider themselves moderate (like myself) and liberal combined.

I personally find that saying you're "conservative" or "liberal" is far too broad.

I am personally very fiscally conservative, but socially liberal.

Keep out of my personal business and out of my wallet and we'll get along just fine.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Arnold jr on October 02, 2010, 11:14:56 PM
That doesn't sound like 1/2 and it's less than those that consider themselves moderate (like myself) and liberal combined.

I personally find that saying you're "conservative" or "liberal" is far too broad.

I am personally very fiscally conservative, but socially liberal.

Keep out of my personal business and out of my wallet and we'll get along just fine.

To me, what you just described sounds more like a libertarian. I don't think most people know what the term "social liberal" actually means. I'm not saying you're one of those people, I don't know you but the majority have no clue and just say it.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 02, 2010, 11:38:05 PM
To me, what you just described sounds more like a libertarian. I don't think most people know what the term "social liberal" actually means. I'm not saying you're one of those people, I don't know you but the majority have no clue and just say it.

Well, I do believe in the government providing certain social functions, but I do believe it should be done with a certain amount of fiscal responsibility.

I do consider myself a libertarian however in a great many ways.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Arnold jr on October 03, 2010, 02:10:05 AM
Well, I do believe in the government providing certain social functions, but I do believe it should be done with a certain amount of fiscal responsibility.

I do consider myself a libertarian however in a great many ways.

Personally I do not feel the government has any reason to involve itself in the realm of social functions unless they collide within the realm of their intended powers, and this occurs very, very little. Take for instance the issue of gay marriage, I do not feel the government has any business telling homosexuals they can't marry, but I also feel they have no business sanctioning it. Let gays be gay, let them be is gay as they want to be, I don't care, but don't give them brownie points for being so. That's just one example.

I guess for awhile now I've pretty much considered myself a conservative/libertarian. I find myself strongly in agreement with libertarian philosophies but pure libertarian is too close to anarchy and we saw how that worked under the Articles of Confederation.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: garebear on October 03, 2010, 05:01:04 AM
Wait a minute, the Taliban is part of lunatic Islam, doesnt that mean Hugo should move this to the Religious board, lol!?!

To the point, no, the government has no right to censor the game, they didn't try to and that's good. On another note, it is of very low class for the designers and manufacturers of the game to set it up the way they did. How about a game called "Medal of Honor: NYC" you can be the terrorist flying into the WTC. Same difference and it's pretty low.

To those who keep bringing up that this is a stupid argument, sure, it's not nearly as important as other things but it's still something to talk about...please, take your medicine.
Right on.

I wonder if other nations would have banned it. Wouldn't surprise me, since Europe has pretty much dropped true freedom of speech.

Go to Germany and deny the Holocaust and they will throw your ass in jail. Go to the Netherlands and "insult Islam", whatever the hell that means. I'm sure Geert Wilders is having a tough time with it right now.

Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Deicide on October 03, 2010, 05:04:00 AM
Personally I do not feel the government has any reason to involve itself in the realm of social functions unless they collide within the realm of their intended powers, and this occurs very, very little. Take for instance the issue of gay marriage, I do not feel the government has any business telling homosexuals they can't marry, but I also feel they have no business sanctioning it. Let gays be gay, let them be is gay as they want to be, I don't care, but don't give them brownie points for being so. That's just one example.

I guess for awhile now I've pretty much considered myself a conservative/libertarian. I find myself strongly in agreement with libertarian philosophies but pure libertarian is too close to anarchy and we saw how that worked under the Articles of Confederation.

Right on brother...difference between a libertarian and an alleged 'conservative'.....
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 03, 2010, 01:05:24 PM
Personally I do not feel the government has any reason to involve itself in the realm of social functions unless they collide within the realm of their intended powers, and this occurs very, very little. Take for instance the issue of gay marriage, I do not feel the government has any business telling homosexuals they can't marry, but I also feel they have no business sanctioning it. Let gays be gay, let them be is gay as they want to be, I don't care, but don't give them brownie points for being so. That's just one example.

I guess for awhile now I've pretty much considered myself a conservative/libertarian. I find myself strongly in agreement with libertarian philosophies but pure libertarian is too close to anarchy and we saw how that worked under the Articles of Confederation.
I agree for the most part... What I'm saying is that I can agree with things like Medicare and Social Security.

What I don't agree with is how the government borrowed against those programs to fund other stuff.

So when I say I'm socially liberal, it's with certain caveats.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Soul Crusher on October 03, 2010, 02:53:45 PM
I agree for the most part... What I'm saying is that I can agree with things like Medicare and Social Security.

What I don't agree with is how the government borrowed against those programs to fund other stuff.

So when I say I'm socially liberal, it's with certain caveats.

www.usdebtclock.org

Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Lundgren on October 03, 2010, 04:18:24 PM
There making money off the name taliban. IF it were trademarked this would be a none issue. There attempting to make money off using the name, I dont care if its in Afghanistan, but I think people who have lost their family members have ownership of the name.  Its that simple. Dont give me this free speech bullshit, if you were to do the same with mcdonalds it would never float. If the military trademarked the name it would be fine, sad thing is some people are making it almost necessary.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 03, 2010, 04:23:49 PM
According to whom?

Me.  And Gallup.  Thanks Arnold.   :)
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 03, 2010, 05:28:44 PM
Me.  And Gallup.  Thanks Arnold.   :)

Like I said before... It wasn't half and it was less than the moderates and liberals together... So you're pretty much just wrong.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 03, 2010, 05:32:29 PM
Like I said before... It wasn't half and it was less than the moderates and liberals together... So you're pretty much just wrong.

Right.   ::)  Whether you go issue by issue, or look at things in the broader context, most people are conservative.  Then again, aren't you the person who said the country doesn't care about abortion? 
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: tu_holmes on October 03, 2010, 05:33:56 PM
Right.   ::)  Whether you go issue by issue, or look at things in the broader context, most people are conservative.  Then again, aren't you the person who said the country doesn't care about abortion? 

Yep... that's me.

Only the crazy christians care about abortion, but then they're as bad as the crazy tax people.

As you have seen me say on numerous occasions, if you think the answer to the countries problems is raising taxes or the baby jesus, you're part of the problem.
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Dos Equis on October 03, 2010, 05:34:34 PM
Yep... that's me.

Only the crazy christians care about abortion, but then they're as bad as the crazy tax people.

As you have seen me say on numerous occasions, if you think the answer to the countries problems is raising taxes or the baby jesus, you're part of the problem.

lol
Title: Re: Videogame Manufacturer to Stop Allowing Players to Assume Role of Taliban
Post by: Deicide on October 03, 2010, 06:47:11 PM
Yep... that's me.

Only the crazy christians care about abortion, but then they're as bad as the crazy tax people.

As you have seen me say on numerous occasions, if you think the answer to the countries problems is raising taxes or the baby jesus, you're part of the problem.

EA master laying down the truth...damn! ;D