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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on November 21, 2010, 12:01:04 PM
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Was reading about the goals of terrorism (see excerpt below). Sounds like Osama, Al Qaeda, the shoe bomber, and the underwear bomber have successfully influenced government (over)regulation of air travel. Isn't the whole intent of this TSA nonsense to prevent someone from blowing up a plane? Seems like we are playing right into their hands.
The Intent of Terrorist Groups
A terrorist group commits acts of violence to -
Produce widesrpead fear
Obtain worldwide, national, or local recognition for their cause by attracting the attention of the media
Harass, weaken, or embarrass government security forces so that the the government overreacts and appears repressive
Steal or extort money and equipment, especially weapons and ammunition vital to the operation of their group
Destroy facilities or disrupt lines of communication in order to create doubt that the government can provide for and protect its citizens
Discourage foreign investments, tourism, or assistance programs that can affect the target country’s economy and support of the government in power
Influence government decisions, legislation, or other critical decisions
Free prisoners
Satisfy vengeance
Turn the tide in a guerrilla war by forcing government security forces to concentrate their efforts in urban areas. This allows the terrorist group to establish itself among the local populace in rural areas
http://www.terrorism-research.com/goals/
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Absolutely. Not in terms of blood, but in terms of drastically changing the way America operates. Some for the good-- we are definitely more diligent, have better information sharing between agencies and have a much more proactive rather than reactive stance on counterterrorism. But we are also less free, more stressed and exist in what seems to be a constant state of alert. Government intrusion has gone from necessary to offensive. And despite constant threats being subdued, does anyone feel safer? I sure as shit don't. The prospect of another large scale terrorist act on our shores is imminent. It's a question of when, not if.
So while they haven't killed many of us and they have been frequently thwarted, life is a lot different than it was pre 911.
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Absolutely. Not in terms of blood, but in terms of drastically changing the way America operates. Some for the good-- we are definitely more diligent, have better information sharing between agencies and have a much more proactive rather than reactive stance on counterterrorism. But we are also less free, more stressed and exist in what seems to be a constant state of alert. Government intrusion has gone from necessary to offensive. And despite constant threats being subdued, does anyone feel safer? I sure as shit don't. The prospect of another large scale terrorist act on our shores is imminent. It's a question of when, not if.
So while they haven't killed many of us and they have been frequently thwarted, life is a lot different than it was pre 911.
I was eager to respond to this thread but you pretty much summed it up with the above. I will add this though, the only way all of this stupidity will come to an end follows IMO as so...like you said, there will be another attack, there's no question, unfortunately it's going to take something just as big if not bigger than 9/11 for a lot of people in this country to get their heads out of their ass. Then at that point and only then will we reach a point where the terrorist aren't winning...we have the ability but unfortunately we're probably going to have to be pushed and forced into it.
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Was reading about the goals of terrorism (see excerpt below). Sounds like Osama, Al Qaeda, the shoe bomber, and the underwear bomber have successfully influenced government (over)regulation of air travel. Isn't the whole intent of this TSA nonsense to prevent someone from blowing up a plane? Seems like we are playing right into their hands.
The Intent of Terrorist Groups
A terrorist group commits acts of violence to -
Produce widesrpead fear
Obtain worldwide, national, or local recognition for their cause by attracting the attention of the media
Harass, weaken, or embarrass government security forces so that the the government overreacts and appears repressive
Steal or extort money and equipment, especially weapons and ammunition vital to the operation of their group
Destroy facilities or disrupt lines of communication in order to create doubt that the government can provide for and protect its citizens
Discourage foreign investments, tourism, or assistance programs that can affect the target country’s economy and support of the government in power
Influence government decisions, legislation, or other critical decisions
Free prisoners
Satisfy vengeance
Turn the tide in a guerrilla war by forcing government security forces to concentrate their efforts in urban areas. This allows the terrorist group to establish itself among the local populace in rural areas
http://www.terrorism-research.com/goals/
Yes, they've been successful...
It all started with the patriot act...
You give them exactly what they want. You seem to live in fear. The Terrorists would have accomplished their goal if everyone thought like you.
I'd take the bastard terrorists on myself before letting our corrupt government take anymore of my Freedoms.
It really is a shame that you and other sheeple don't see whats really going on. "Go ahead, take the freedom our founding fathers gave us. Just as long as you protect me."
We gave Bin Laden exactly what he wanted. Thanks Mr. I!
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If they have been successful then at what cost was it to them?
I see us having to make some changes but for the average American how impacting have these changes been?
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If they have been successful then at what cost was it to them?
I see us having to make some changes but for the average American how impacting have these changes been?
Extremely impacting, we've literally invalidated sections of the constitution because some ignorant cave dwellers supposedly attacked us on 9/11...
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Is this even up for debate any more?
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Extremely impacting, we've literally invalidated sections of the constitution because some ignorant cave dwellers supposedly attacked us on 9/11...
You had me up until there.... ::)
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You had me up until there.... ::)
LOL quoted for truth
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You had me up until there.... ::)
What's the problem?
You don't like me calling them ignorant? ???
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If they have been successful then at what cost was it to them?
I see us having to make some changes but for the average American how impacting have these changes been?
Doesn't really cost them anything. We can't even identify them half the time. They're also willing to commit suicide to kill and create fear.
Outside of this TSA crap, we haven't really lost rights and freedoms, but there has been a significant financial cost to fight terrorism. We have an entirely new federal department as a result of 9/11 (Homeland Security).
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Doesn't really cost them anything. We can't even identify them half the time. They're also willing to commit suicide to kill and create fear.
Outside of this TSA crap, we haven't really lost rights and freedoms, but there has been a significant financial cost to fight terrorism. We have an entirely new federal department as a result of 9/11 (Homeland Security).
Really?
I was under the impression that the fourth amendment basically no longer applied?
???
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Really?
I was under the impression that the fourth amendment basically no longer applied?
???
How so?
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How so?
US citizens have had their right trampled on left and right in the name of national security. Google News it if you're interested.
(this was brought up prior to 2007 on getbig, and most everyone on the political board brushed it off like it was no big deal)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20999950/ns/us_news-security
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US citizens have had their right trampled on left and right in the name of national security. Google News it if you're interested.
(this was brought up prior to 2007 on getbig, and most everyone on the political board brushed it off like it was no big deal)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20999950/ns/us_news-security
Google what? You said the Fourth Amendment no longer exists. I asked how. You linked me to an article where a judge ruled parts of the Patriot was unconstitutional. The article contradicts your claim that the Fourth Amendment no longer exists.
Here is the text of the Fourth Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Which part no longer exists?
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Doesn't really cost them anything. We can't even identify them half the time. They're also willing to commit suicide to kill and create fear.
Outside of this TSA crap, we haven't really lost rights and freedoms, but there has been a significant financial cost to fight terrorism. We have an entirely new federal department as a result of 9/11 (Homeland Security).
Here is what comes to mind when I think about what is cost them:
- Thousands of American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan hunting and killing them
- More world opinion turned against them
- Operations through out the world made more difficult as governments of other countries cooperating with the USA to find them
- The people who may support and finance them held in greater scrutiny
- other countries not wanting to help them for fear of reprisals from the USA
- ability to carry out terrorist attacks reduced
there are probably lots of Other things.
As far freedoms taken away affecting every life? I donno.
So that's why I don't know their attack was all that successful.
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Google what? You said the Fourth Amendment no longer exists. I asked how. You linked me to an article where a judge ruled parts of the Patriot was unconstitutional. The article contradicts your claim that the Fourth Amendment no longer exists.
That was obviously an exaggeration, settle down...
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Also interesting what Peter Jennings says right after the interview with Biden, which should ring true with this thread:
At 22:05
http://www.archive.org/details/abc200109111323-1404
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Here is what comes to mind when I think about what is cost them:
- Thousands of American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan hunting and killing them
- More world opinion turned against them
- Operations through out the world made more difficult as governments of other countries cooperating with the USA to find them
- The people who may support and finance them held in greater scrutiny
- other countries not wanting to help them for fear of reprisals from the USA
- ability to carry out terrorist attacks reduced
there are probably lots of Other things.
As far freedoms taken away affecting every life? I donno.
So that's why I don't know their attack was all that successful.
I agree for the most part. The one thing that's problematic about your list is "them." We're not fighting a country or a traditionally organized force. They're all over the place. They're even living in our country.
If you look at one of the items from the link I posted, it can be directly linked to the shoe and underwear bombers: "Harass, weaken, or embarrass government security forces so that the the government overreacts and appears repressive."
We have to take off our shoes at the airport because of the shoe bomber. We have these sexual assault enhanced searches because of the underwear bomber.
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I think it's
hilarious scary that it took Beach Bum (and others) nine years to realize this fact...
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That was obviously an exaggeration, settle down...
??? Nobody is worked up. Just asking a question.
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I think it's hilarious scary that it took Beach Bum (and others) nine years to realize this fact...
Which portion of the Fourth Amendment no longer exists? Here is the text (again):
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
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Which portion of the Fourth Amendment no longer exists? Here is the text (again):
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
That was obviously an exaggeration, settle down...
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lol. Then what the heck are you talking about?
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lol. Then what the heck are you talking about?
The fact that we've let the terrorists get their way. People here have been complaining about this since 9/11. As far as I know, this is the first time the thought has crossed your mind? It's certainly the first time you've posted anything like this.
???
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LMAO RPF you know damn well you were being serious bro...
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The fact that we've let the terrorists get their way. People here have been complaining about this since 9/11. As far as I know, this is the first time the thought has crossed your mind? It's certainly the first time you've posted anything like this.
???
People have been complaining about things that have had zero impact on their lives. You in particular have repeatedly mentioned the Patriot Act and I recall asking you and others exactly what rights you have lost as a result of the Patriot Act. You have yet to provide an answer. Nor has anyone else. I still question whether you and others have even read it.
This TSA stuff is completely different. It has a direct impact on me because I fly all the time. It has a direct impact on everyone else who flies. The whole country is talking about it.
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LMAO RPF you know damn well you were being serious bro...
Settle down tony. He was obviously exaggerating. :)
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People have been complaining about things that have had zero impact on their lives. You in particular have repeatedly mentioned the Patriot Act and I recall asking you and others exactly what rights you have lost as a result of the Patriot Act. You have yet to provide an answer. Nor has anyone else. I still question whether you and others have even read it.
This TSA stuff is completely different. It has a direct impact on me because I fly all the time. It has a direct impact on everyone else who flies. The whole country is talking about it.
Are you denying that I've lost rights since this "loss" hasn't personally affected my life?
Our personal residences, and businesses can now be secretly searched with indefinite notification, the feds have access to our medical, library, and weapons records (probably other stuff too, I'm not a lawyer) without "criminal suspicion".
From what I've read, the definition of "Domestic Terrorism" could now include acts of political protest.
I don't understand why you're acting oblivious to these issues? Incidents where peoples right have been violated in the name of this phoney war on terror are in the newspaper daily.
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Are you denying that the rights have been lost since they haven't personally affected my life?
Our personal residences, and businesses can now be secretly searched with indefinite notification, the feds have access to our medical, library, and weapons records (probably other stuff too, I'm not a lawyer) without "criminal suspicion".
From what I've read, the definition of "Domestic Terrorism" could now include acts of political protest.
I don't understand why you're acting oblivious to these issues? Incidents where peoples right have been violated in the name of this phoney war on terror are in the newspaper daily.
wait I thought you were exaggerating and werent serious?
which one was it?
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wait I thought you were exaggerating and werent serious?
which one was it?
That last post doesn't contradict my previous statement regarding the fact that I was obviously exaggerating.
The fourth amendment has obviously not been completely invalidated, it has definitely been obstructed though...
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That last post doesn't contradict my previous statement regarding the fact that I was obviously exaggerating.
LOL well you say we lost rights so please name these constitutional rights that we have lost...
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Are you denying that I've lost rights since this "loss" hasn't personally affected my life?
Our personal residences, and businesses can now be secretly searched with indefinite notification, the feds have access to our medical, library, and weapons records (probably other stuff too, I'm not a lawyer) without "criminal suspicion".
From what I've read, the definition of "Domestic Terrorism" could now include acts of political protest.
I don't understand why you're acting oblivious to these issues? Incidents where peoples right have been violated in the name of this phoney war on terror are in the newspaper daily.
I'm not denying anything. I'm asking you what specific rights you have lost.
Which part of the Patriot Act authorizes a secret search of my home?
Are you getting this information from CT websites, because it sounds pretty bizarre.
And is this a factual statement or an obvious exaggeration (I can't tell)? "Incidents where peoples right have been violated in the name of this phoney war on terror are in the newspaper daily."
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do we really need to turn this thread into this argument. Come on Tony, stop please. Good thread going to shit.
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do we really need to turn this thread into this argument. Come on Tony, stop please. Good thread going to shit.
LOL we can make another thread if youd like
sorry I just find rpf's jagson like back peddling funny
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This TSA stuff is completely different. It has a direct impact on me because I fly all the time. It has a direct impact on everyone else who flies. The whole country is talking about it.
Oh, I understand now. Laws that impede our rights don't matter, as long as they don't impact you or me personally.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Patriot+Act+US+Constitution
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Oh, I understand now. Laws that impede our rights don't matter, as long as they don't impact you or me personally.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Patriot+Act+US+Constitution
Not what I said. For example, the government's ability to conduct secret searches of your home tramples on your rights, whether they do it or not. But I get the feeling that particular provision is nowhere to be found in the Patriot Act.
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I think GW summed it up best.
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Was reading about the goals of terrorism (see excerpt below). Sounds like Osama, Al Qaeda, the shoe bomber, and the underwear bomber have successfully influenced government (over)regulation of air travel. Isn't the whole intent of this TSA nonsense to prevent someone from blowing up a plane? Seems like we are playing right into their hands.
The Intent of Terrorist Groups
A terrorist group commits acts of violence to -
Produce widesrpead fear
Obtain worldwide, national, or local recognition for their cause by attracting the attention of the media
Harass, weaken, or embarrass government security forces so that the the government overreacts and appears repressive
Steal or extort money and equipment, especially weapons and ammunition vital to the operation of their group
Destroy facilities or disrupt lines of communication in order to create doubt that the government can provide for and protect its citizens
Discourage foreign investments, tourism, or assistance programs that can affect the target country’s economy and support of the government in power
Influence government decisions, legislation, or other critical decisions
Free prisoners
Satisfy vengeance
Turn the tide in a guerrilla war by forcing government security forces to concentrate their efforts in urban areas. This allows the terrorist group to establish itself among the local populace in rural areas
http://www.terrorism-research.com/goals/
Asked this question a few years ago. Are they being successful? In some respects, it sure seems like it.
Counterterrorism analysts want US mass transit security tightened in wake of plots
By Barnini Chakraborty
Published April 23, 2013
FoxNews.com
In this March 11, 2013 photo, the Amtrak Vermonter heads south in Middlesex, Vt. Amtrak says ridership has increased in the first six months of fiscal year 2013, with ridership in March setting a record as the single best month ever in Amtrak's history. (AP)
WASHINGTON – Counterterrorism experts have renewed calls to tighten security on America's mass transit lines following two would-be terrorists' foiled plot to blow up a Toronto passenger train.
The alleged plan to attack Canada’s transit system has shed light on the vulnerabilities that still exist in America's commuter system and the challenges involved in keeping it safe for travelers.
"The millions of Americans who take public transportation need to be assured that everything possible is being done to ensure their security and safety," American Public Transportation Association President and CEO Michael Melaniphy told FoxNews.com on Monday, adding that federal funding should be increased.
Security analysts note that the very nature of public transit systems makes them hard to defend because of their open architecture, multiple access points and heavy volume of passengers. But a string of recent plots, including the latest out of Canada, underscore the need to make changes.
Scott Weber, former counsel for the Department of Homeland Security, told Fox News that “the threat lies everywhere.”
“This country has to change its outlook on day-to-day life,” he said. “We can’t let out guard down.”
Melaniphy thinks more money should be spent on state-of-the-art surveillance systems, explosive- and chemical-detection systems, and enhanced communication technology -- as well as anti-terrorism patrol teams, first responder training and public education campaigns.
“These enhancements are crucial in order to effectively combat and deter potential attacks,” he said.
In the nearly 12 years that have passed since the Sept. 11 attacks, terrorists have plotted more than 700 attacks on surface transportation systems internationally. There have been more than 50 foiled attacks in the U.S.
In the U.S., New York police uncovered a 2003 Al Qaeda plot to release cyanide gas in New York City’s subway system. In July 2006, the Federal Bureau of Investigation said it had stopped an attack on the PATH – specifically the commuter rail's tunnel connecting New York and New Jersey. They discovered a plan to place suicide bombers on the train and to destroy the retaining wall separating the Hudson River from the World Trade Center site in hopes of causing massive flooding to lower Manhattan – the city’s financial district.
Authorities in Cleveland arrested five self-described anarchists last May. They were accused of plotting to blow up a four-lane highway bridge. An undercover FBI agent had sold the men inoperable detonators and plastic explosives.
In 2009, seven defendants came within days of executing a plot to conduct coordinated suicide bombings in the New York City subway system. When authorities foiled the attack, one of the defendants tried to crash his car on the Whitestone Expressway in an effort to kill himself and others.
Terrorists have been more successful attacking mass transit hubs and transportation centers internationally.
In 2005, three bombs on subways in London and one on a double-decker bus went off, killing at least 37 people in coordinated rush hour attack. In 2004,191 people were killed and another 1,500 were wounded in Spain when 10 bombs exploded on four trains in three Madrid-area train stations.
"Although attacks similar to those in London, Madrid, Israel or Japan have yet to occur in the United States, the threat is real and chances of an attack succeeding are high,” Daniel Prieto, research director of the Homeland Security Partnership Initiative, said during a hearing before the joint committee on Public Safety and Homeland Security in Massachusetts. “There are over 140,000 miles of train routes in the U.S. and more than 500 major urban transit operators."
Prieto added that Americans take public transit 32 million times a day, "16 times more than they travel on domestic airlines." She also noted that 9/11 terror mastermind Khalid Sheik Muhammed "told his interrogators that Al Qaeda had plans to attack the metro system in Washington, D.C."
A 2010 report from the Obama administration stressed the need for more work to be done to maintain safety on the nation’s mass transit lines. The recommendations included modernizing the information technology infrastructure used to vet the identity of travelers and transportation workers and completing blast analyses for all underwater passenger rail tunnels.
But some say that’s just lip service from the president and point to cuts in federal funding over the years as security concerns.
“The APTA has urged Congress to significantly increase funding for public transportation security to the levels called for in the 9/11 Commission Act of 2007,” Melaniphy said. “Instead, from 2010 to 2012, federal investment in transit security decreased by 65 percent, while public transportation ridership increased by 300 million trips. This decrease in federal funding is just short-sighted.”
During the last several federal budget cycles, the APTA has urged Congress to raise funding for public transportation security.
To date, through its Transit Security Grant Program, the Department of Homeland Security has given $547 million to 60 of the country’s mass transit and passenger rail systems in 25 states and D.C. The TSA divided the money based on “a risk-based prioritization in determining eligible passenger rail and transit agencies, funding allocations and evaluations for award,” according to its website.
Last year, the grant program provided $87.5 million to beef up security measures at the country’s passenger rail, intra-city bus networks and ferry systems. Amtrak received an additional $10 million.
Funding revolves around 17 security and emergency preparedness action items and six core fundamentals that focus on emergency evacuation plans, security patrols, counterterrorism training for front-line staff and public awareness and preparedness campaigns, among others.
“A transit agency’s awareness campaign should also extend to its employees,” according to the TSA site. “Appropriate counter-terrorism training, couples with a strong security awareness campaign, will yield significantly heightened security awareness in transit systems.”
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/23/counter-terrorism-experts-call-for-increased-security-at-land-based/
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Haha..I didn't know Cy Tolliver was P.I.P.
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In light of Donald Trump's call to ban all Muslims, I'd say the answer to this question is, again, "yes." :-\
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Terrorism causing paranoia and overreactions, just as designed.
Rep. Adam Schiff: LA Schools' Bomb Threat Was Likely a Hoax
(http://www.newsmax.com/CMSPages/GetFile.aspx?guid=fc9d61f6-cbf6-43bc-b97f-c7470dbdbbd2&SiteName=Newsmax&maxsidesize=600)
Image: Rep. Adam Schiff: LA Schools' Bomb Threat Was Likely a Hoax
Tuesday, 15 Dec 2015
All Los Angeles public schools were shut down on Tuesday following a bomb threat.
Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Burbank) declared in the afternoon that the threat was likely a hoax.
"While we continue to gather information about the threat made against the Los Angeles and New York School Departments, the preliminary assessment is that it was a hoax or something designed to disrupt school districts in large cities," Schiff said. "The investigation is ongoing as to where the threat originated from and who was responsible."
The specifics of the threat are currently unknown, but students and teachers were told to stay away from all L.A. Unified School District campuses. The threat, described as "credible" and "rare," was received electronically and directed at multiple schools.
The email has since been traced to an IP address in Frankfurt, Germany, Rep. Mike McCaul (R-TX), House Homeland Security Committee chairman, told MSNBC's Brian Williams. However, law enforcement sources said the person could have masked his/her location.
"There has been some initial reporting that it may have come from an IP address out of Germany. We are doing that attribution now back to possibly Europe, where the source of this threat may have come from," McCaul said. "[S ]o we don't, again, know the source of the threat itself or how credible, but we do know that the terrorists have looked at exploiting this means of social media as a device to shut things down."
LAUSD Superintendent Ramon Cortines said Tuesday morning that schools will be closed until police search buildings to ensure the district's 900-plus campuses and 187 public charter schools were safe.
"A threat had been made to not one school, but many schools in this district," Cortines said. "Some of the details talked about backpacks and other packages. After talking with him, also with the board president, I made a decision to close all of the schools."
Students who already arrived at school are being supervised until parents can pick them up, while buses that had taken children to school early were turned around.
With more than 640,000 students between kindergarten and 12th grade, LAUSD is the nation's second-largest school district.
The bomb scare comes less than two weeks after a terrorist attack in San Bernardino left 14 dead and 22 others wounded. In an eerie coincidence, Monday marked the third anniversary of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Conn.
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/schiff-hoax-terror-threat/2015/12/15/id/705911/#ixzz3uVt6NrVX