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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on December 20, 2010, 11:09:02 AM
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Feds want reporting for high-powered rifle sales
By ALICIA A. CALDWELL, Associated Press Alicia A. Caldwell, Associated Press – 28 mins ago
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101220/ap_on_re_us/us_gun_sales_reporting_2
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WASHINGTON – The federal agency that monitors gun sales wants weapons dealers near the Mexican border to start reporting multiple sales of high-powered rifles, according to a notice published in the Federal Register.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has asked the White House budget office to approve an emergency request requiring border-area gun dealers to report the sales of two or more rifles to the same customer within a five-day period.
The emergency request, published Friday in the Federal Register, is likely to face stiff opposition from gun rights advocates, including the National Rifle Association. ATF wants the Office of Budget Management to approve the request by Jan. 5.
NRA officials did not immediately return a telephone message for comment Monday. Last week the group's chief lobbyist, Chris Cox, told the Washington Post that the "NRA supports legitimate efforts to stop criminal activity, but we will not stand idle while our Second Amendment is sacrificed for politics." The Post first reported the proposal.
High-powered rifles have become the weapon of choice for Mexico's warring drug cartel. More than 30,000 people have been killed in Mexico's drug war since President Felipe Calderon launched an offensive against the powerful drug gangs shortly after taking office in late 2006.
Officials on both sides of the border have said weapons bought legally in the United States are routinely smuggled into the Mexico. The proposed reporting requirement would apply to sales of two or more semi-automatic guns more powerful than .22-caliber rifles that use a detachable magazine within a five-day period.
ATF, which tracks weapons found in Mexico and has tied tens of thousands of recovered guns to U.S. dealers, has been criticized for not doing enough to curb the flow of guns to Mexico, where firearms sales are highly restricted.
Last month a Justice Department report on the agency's Operation Gunrunner criticized the program as being narrowly focused on individual gun buyers and not larger smuggling organizations believed responsible for significant numbers of guns being shipped across the border.
Currently there are no reporting requirements for rifles.
If approved by the White House, the new reporting requirement would affect nearly 8,500 border-area gun dealers in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas and be in place for 180 days.
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If you support the govt being able to detain americans to prove citizenship (something that MANY constitutionalists and strict conservatives hated) - then you probably shuld support the govt tracking gun purchases.
Another example of "we will deal with this govt tracking of citizens, just this one time"...
And another example of "It only takes a pen stroke for this to be a nationwide policy..."
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This will get struck down. Its more bullshit from Obama seeking a national registry of long arms.
FUBO.
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What's the problem with this?
Did you even read the article you posted
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What's the problem with this?
Did you even read the article you posted
Yes I did and the words of Rahmn Emanuel came to mind:
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Yes I did and the words of Rahmn Emanuel came to mind:
tell me why in your words
I've wasted enough time already watching the stupid videos you post
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So, you don't want them to keep track of legally purchased high powered rifles that are bought near the Mexican border? They have a shit load of problems, and that is where man of the arms are coming from...and think of the fiasco that would ensue if they attack American citizens with legal American bought guns...
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So, you don't want them to keep track of legally purchased high powered rifles that are bought near the Mexican border? They have a shit load of problems, and that is where man of the arms are coming from...and think of the fiasco that would ensue if they attack American citizens with legal American bought guns...
This s going to be backdoor national registry of long arms. It will start here and expand.
By the way - most of the weapons being usedby the ZETAs are not the oes they are targeting. Most of the ones in Mexico are full auto's from China and Russia, not small gun shops.
This reg also will be challenged an struck down in court BTW. Either everyone has to report or no one at all.
Since when do we have geographic regs?
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hahaha, "reporting of sales?"
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I have no problem with the proposal and it wouldn't bother me a bit if I were buying a gun
why should I care?
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I have no problem with the proposal and it wouldn't bother me a bit if I were buying a gun
why should I care?
You? Of course not - you would probably send the serial number and receipt to the WH as a copy.
Most others? no, they dn't want Fed GOv having a national registery of long arms purchases.
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You? Of course not - you would probably send the serial number and receipt to the WH as a copy.
Most others? no, they dn't want Fed GOv having a national registery of long arms purchases.
again - Why should I care?
what's the problem
I have to register my care and other shit so what's the difference.
Why should i be upset about this?
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again - Why should I care?
what's the problem
I have to register my care and other shit so what's the difference.
Why should i be upset about this?
Because Straw - the history of gun registeries and lists really has not worked out too well for citizens.
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Because Straw - the history of gun registeries and lists really has not worked out too well for citizens.
Germany circa 1930's called......they agree.
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Because Straw - the history of gun registeries and lists really has not worked out too well for citizens.
what the history
again - tell me what I'm supposed to be worried about?
don't we already register handguns
has that caused some problem?
has it helped LE?
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what the history
again - tell me what I'm supposed to be worried about?
don't we already register handguns
has that caused some problem?
has it helped LE?
Its a state issue, not a national issue. Sorry -I don't want or need DHS having a record of all my gun ownings if I have never committed a crime or been convicted of anythig. .
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Germany circa 1930's called......they agree.
yes, no doubt this is one step toward becoming just like Nazi Germany in the 1930's
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The federal agency that monitors gun sales wants weapons dealers near the Mexican border to start reporting multiple sales of high-powered rifles, according to a notice published in the Federal Register.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has asked the White House budget office to approve an emergency request requiring border-area gun dealers to report the sales of two or more rifles to the same customer within a five-day period.
I won't lose any sleep over this
3333 - I'm sure you'll be up at night, tossing and turning, cutting out the newspaper and re-arranging to find secret messages, hidden meaning, etc... and then coming back to share all your insight with the board
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He is trying to force this though. FUBO!
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He is trying to force this though. FUBO!
I rarely watch your videos
they are almost always worthless
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Take it up with CNN - they reported it.
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Take it up with CNN - they reported it.
all they reported was exactly what you have in the article
so what
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LOL again and again
The ppl that buy/sell guns for LEGAL PURPOSES ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO WILL ABIDE BY THIS...
Tracking guns wont do shit, b/c guess what criminals by and large do not buy their guns from reputable sources...
are you going to go enforce these laws with the street dealers selling them?
NO???? you say...well im shocked, so you mean this will only effect law abiding citizens and not the criminals you intend it to?
YES!!!
seems like a perfect examply of bureaucratic idiocy in action...
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LOL again and again
The ppl that buy/sell guns for LEGAL PURPOSES ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO WILL ABIDE BY THIS...
Tracking guns wont do shit, b/c guess what criminals by and large do not buy their guns from reputable sources...
are you going to go enforce these laws with the street dealers selling them?
NO???? you say...well im shocked, so you mean this will only effect law abiding citizens and not the criminals you intend it to?
YES!!!
seems like a perfect examply of bureaucratic idiocy in action...
Officials on both sides of the border have said weapons bought legally in the United States are routinely smuggled into the Mexico
how about the ones that are bought legally in the US and then smuggled into Mexico
Don't you think it might help in track the people who are doing the smuggling or at the very least give us an idea which stores might be selling these weapons which wind up in Mexico (or somewhere else for that matter)
LE seems to like the idea and we all know what a bunch of bleeding heart Lib/Commies they are
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HOW ARE THEY BEING SMUGGLED OVER THERE?
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how about the ones that are bought legally in the US and then smuggled into Mexico
Don't you think it might help in track the people who are doing the smuggling or at the very least give us an idea which stores might be selling these weapons which wind up in Mexico (or somewhere else for that matter)
LE seems to like the idea and we all know what a bunch of bleeding heart Lib/Commies they are
LE was also in favor of the arizona law, does that mean that was right now?
I never said that guns bought here dont find there way to mexico, the question is how is this going to stop it?
no I dont, first of all the criminals are not buying the guns....they are stealing them from homes
and even if they were they would just have a patsy buy the guns and say someone stole them from his house or car...
if I can come up with ways to get around this law in 2 seconds you think those criminals would be able to?
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LE was also in favor of the arizona law, does that mean that was right now?
I never said that guns bought here dont find there way to mexico, the question is how is this going to stop it?
no I dont, first of all the criminals are not buying the guns....they are stealing them from homes
and even if they were they would just have a patsy buy the guns and say someone stole them from his house or car...
if I can come up with ways to get around this law in 2 seconds you think those criminals would be able to?
This has nothing to do with Mexico, its about openig the door to a national registration for long arms for law abiding citizens.
Its more bogus crap from ATF.
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LE was also in favor of the arizona law, does that mean that was right now?
I never said that guns bought here dont find there way to mexico, the question is how is this going to stop it?
no I dont, first of all the criminals are not buying the guns....they are stealing them from homes
and even if they were they would just have a patsy buy the guns and say someone stole them from his house or car...
if I can come up with ways to get around this law in 2 seconds you think those criminals would be able to?
Many LE in AZ were also against the law
if guns are bought legally and then wind up in the hand of a criminal the law could help track how that gun got in the hand of the criminal
Is it perfect....No
If it prevents people who intend to buy guns and then smuggle them to Mexico from not buying the guns then that is a good thing too
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This has nothing to do with Mexico, its about openig the door to a national registration for long arms for law abiding citizens.
Its more bogus crap from ATF.
then why did you post a story about guns being smuggled to Mexico?
Or maybe we're just supposed to believe your paranoid delusion that it's really just a ploy by the US and Mexico to further Obama secret agenda to take your guns
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Many LE in AZ were also against the law
if guns are bought legally and then wind up in the hand of a criminal the law could help track how that gun got in the hand of the criminal
Is it perfect....No
If it prevents people who intend to buy guns and then smuggle them to Mexico from not buying the guns then that is a good thing too
As im sure many LE are against this law...so i guess that point is kind moot... ;)
what is that going to do straw? this law is meant to prevent, its not going to prevent anything...
LOL its not going to prevent, Ive given you two examples of how it wont already...
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As im sure many LE are against this law...so i guess that point is kind moot... ;)
what is that going to do straw? this law is meant to prevent, its not going to prevent anything...
LOL its not going to prevent, Ive given you two examples of how it wont already...
why not guess?
isn't that what you always do
I already gave you a way it might prevent guns from being sold and also how it might help track the guns back to the source
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Libs have always complained about there not being a national registry for long arms.
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Libs have always complained about there not being a national registry for long arms.
you have a get a registration for your car and probably your jet ski too
in New York state I think you're required to get a license for your dog
what's the problem with having to register your guns?
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I have a fully carry in ny and had to go through tons of shit to get it. But handguns are different than long arms and I am not even thrilled about the hand gun registiries.
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I have a fully carry in ny and had to go through tons of shit to get it. But handguns are different than long arms and I am not even thrilled about the hand gun registiries.
how about your car, jet ski and dog?
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why not guess?
isn't that what you always do
I already gave you a way it might prevent guns from being sold and also how it might help track the guns back to the source
and ive given you easy ways to circumvent that...
again this is meant to prevent, if you can easily circumvent it...guess what?
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and ive given you easy ways to circumvent that...
again this is meant to prevent, if you can easily circumvent it...guess what?
what's your point
if the attempt isn't perfect then we should just make no effort at all
I've already said if it prevents someone from buying a gun who intends to sell it or smuggle it then great.
Will that person find a way to get a gun anyway? Perhaps but so what? At least it's making it more difficult and it has zero effect on law abiding citizens. If the legally obtained gun winds up in Mexico then we now will have some ability to track it back to the source.
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Many LE in AZ were also against the law
if guns are bought legally and then wind up in the hand of a criminal the law could help track how that gun got in the hand of the criminal
Is it perfect....No
If it prevents people who intend to buy guns and then smuggle them to Mexico from not buying the guns then that is a good thing too
No one intending to smuggle guns into Mexico buys them in the US. Secondly, there's no way to find out where a gun is once it goes into the black market, even if it was bought legally and tracked, all of that goes out the window as soon as it's handed to someone else for illegal purposes.
This law is essentially what the others have been stating, it does absolutely jack squat in achieving it's face value.
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This s going to be backdoor national registry of long arms. It will start here and expand.
By the way - most of the weapons being usedby the ZETAs are not the oes they are targeting. Most of the ones in Mexico are full auto's from China and Russia, not small gun shops.
This reg also will be challenged an struck down in court BTW. Either everyone has to report or no one at all.
Since when do we have geographic regs?
This is related to what you said, but a different country. If you have ever seen the movie City of God, about Brazil's drug trade in the 70's, they show on the DVD all the guns taken and cataloged...it looked like that scene in the Matrix, where all those guns show up...well, these guns were all American made....They had a interview with the police chief and he said, basically that America can come down here and invade a country to stop drugs from coming into it's country, I would like to go to the US to stop the guns from coming into our coutry...Our illegal export to many, many countries is guns.
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No one intending to smuggle guns into Mexico buys them in the US. Secondly, there's no way to find out where a gun is once it goes into the black market, even if it was bought legally and tracked, all of that goes out the window as soon as it's handed to someone else for illegal purposes.
This law is essentially what the others have been stating, it does absolutely jack squat in achieving it's face value.
The story 333 posted said explicitly that guns were being purchased in the US in border towns and then smuggled to Mexico. If we have no registration now then I'm sure you are correct that once it goes to the black market then it probably does make it impossible to track. I doubt this proposed rule change will cure that but it could help a bit. I still see no reason why it would be bad
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BATFE Requests “Emergency” Authority To Track Semi-Automatic Rifle Sales
NRA ^ | December 17, 2010 | NA
·11250 Waples Mill Road · Fairfax, Virginia 22030 ·800-392-8683
BATFE Requests “Emergency”
Authority To Track Semi-Automatic Rifle Sales
Friday, December 17, 2010
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has proposed that it be given emergency authority for six months, beginning January 5, to require about 8,500 firearms dealers along the border with Mexico “to alert authorities when they sell within five consecutive business days two or more semiautomatic rifles greater than .22 caliber with detachable magazines.” A Washington Post story reporting on the BATFE proposal described that definition as being applicable to “so-called assault weapons,” but it would also apply to many rifles that have never been labeled with that term.
The reporting requirement will apparently be imposed under the “authority” the BATFE has used in the past to demand reporting of other types of transactions from certain limited groups of dealers over the past 10 years, but the new proposal is far broader than any previous use of this authority. Of course, there's no law today that prevents dealers from reporting suspicious transactions (or attempted transactions) to the BATFE, and dealers often do so. The BATFE is also free to inspect dealers' sales records—either for annual compliance inspections or during a criminal investigation.
NRA-ILA’s chief lobbyist, Chris Cox, denounced the attempt to establish a registry of Americans who purchase semi-automatic rifles that gun control supporters ultimately want to see banned. "This administration does not have the guts to build a wall, but they do have the audacity to blame and register gun owners for Mexico's problems," Cox told the Post. "NRA supports legitimate efforts to stop criminal activity, but we will not stand idle while our Second Amendment is sacrificed for politics."
The Post says “The plan by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives revives a proposal that has languished at the Justice Department and in the Obama administration for several months,” and that the gist of the plan was proposed by Mayors Against Illegal Guns (MAIG) last year. It its August 2009 Blueprint for Federal Action on Guns, MAIG indeed proposed that “ATF should identify the long guns most linked to crime and require dealers to report multiple sales of such guns.”
The idea must have appealed to the BATFE, because in June of this year Congress’ Government Accountability Office released a report noting that BATFE officials had claimed that U.S. efforts to stop the smuggling of firearms to Mexico are hindered by “a lack of required background checks for private firearms sales, and limitations on reporting requirements for multiple sales.”
Curiously, in September, a draft of the Department of Justice’s Inspector General’s Office’s unfavorable review of BATFE’s Project Gunrunner, established to combat the trafficking of firearms to Mexico, didn’t mention multiple sales at all. But the final version of the review, released in November, mentions “multiple sales” 43 times and says “the lack of a reporting requirement for multiple sales of long guns – which have become the cartels’ weapons of choice – hinders ATF’s ability to disrupt the flow of illegal weapons into Mexico.”
Whether BATFE intends its plan as another expansion of its oft-criticized firearm sales record tracing empire, or to lay the groundwork for legislation or regulations restricting “assault weapon” sales, or to fatten the files the agency keeps at its National Tracing Center in West Virginia remains to be seen. And the legality of requiring sales reports on any long guns is also in doubt. When the Congress specifically imposed multiple sales reporting on handguns only, it implicitly stated its intention that the same requirement not apply to sales of long guns.
However, it is crystal clear that some in the Obama Administration agree with those who believe the answer to crime is always more gun control. In September, MAIG blamed crime in states that have “strong” gun laws, on states that don’t have the same laws. And ever since President Obama took office, gun control supporters have been blaming Mexico’s crime problem on America’s gun laws.
The fact that Mexico’s multi-billion dollar drug cartels have machine guns, rocket launchers, grenades, and other potent weaponry you cannot buy in the United States is, to gun control supporters, irrelevant. The fact that most of the cartels’ guns have never been on this side of the U.S. border is, as far as they are concerned, a trifling inconvenience. The fact that the cartels will never have enough “assault weapons” or any other guns from the U.S. to hand out to all the Mexican policemen, soldiers and politicians on their payrolls, is, in their view, an unimportant detail. And the fact that the murder rate in the United States is at a 45-year low, while crime in Mexico is through the roof (the murder rate in Juarez is 115 times higher than in El Paso) is, they would certainly say, a contradiction best ignored.
To read the BATFE's Federal Register notice about the plan, and for information on how to send your comments, click here
(http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-31761.pdf). Comments about the proposal will be accepted for two months; if you choose to comment, please state your firm but polite opposition to the plan.
Needless to say, the NRA will not only comment, but take whatever other action is appropriate to block this sweeping expansion of federal recordkeeping on gun owners. Stay tuned.
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what the problem again with having to register the ownership of a gun?
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what the problem again with having to register the ownership of a gun?
I don't agree with it because history has shown that such lists are often used for bad purposes in wrong hands.
I agree with background checks, but not lists by the govt.
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I don't agree with it because history has shown that such lists are often used for bad purposes in wrong hands.
I agree with background checks, but not lists by the govt.
care to share an example of when a list of registered gun owners has been used for bad purposes?
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care to share an example of when a list of registered gun owners has been used for bad purposes?
Are you serious?
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Are you serious?
yes.
you said "history has shown that such lists are often used for bad purposes in wrong hands."
how about a extending that sentence with "for example".......
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Are you serious?
Too bad you never are.
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So let me get this strait, someone that is going to smuggle guns into Mexico is going to go through all the legal channels in the US,and leave a paper trail, just to commit a crime? So you have any idea how stupid that is?
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So let me get this strait, someone that is going to smuggle guns into Mexico is going to go through all the legal channels in the US,and leave a paper trail, just to commit a crime? So you have any idea how stupid that is?
there's no paper trail at the moment
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what the problem again with having to register the ownership of a gun?
whats the problem with building a wall..
which will be 10x more effective than this piss ant bill?
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So let me get this strait, someone that is going to smuggle guns into Mexico is going to go through all the legal channels in the US,and leave a paper trail, just to commit a crime? So you have any idea how stupid that is?
yes of course
according to straw and now lurker only the law abiding citizens that buy guns commit crimes the criminals never obtain their guns through illegal means
whats the problem with building a big ass wall straw?
youve rallied against this as i recall....it will undoubtedly stop some illegals from entering as well as drugs and guns getting out, but you were against this last i saw...
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whats the problem with building a wall..
which will be 10x more effective than this piss ant bill?
registering gun buyers in border towns costs a lot less money than building a wall
especially if your aim is to hinder people who might be inclined to conduct their own personal black market arms biz from having anonymous access to product
I don't see the problem
law abiding citizens like you and me can still travel to the border of mexico and texas and buy a gun
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yes of course
according to straw and now lurker only the law abiding citizens that buy guns commit crimes the criminals never obtain their guns through illegal means
whats the problem with building a big ass wall straw?
youve rallied against this as i recall....it will undoubtedly stop some illegals from entering as well as drugs and guns getting out, but you were against this last i saw...
you're so fucking stupid I don't even know where to start sometimes
I've never said
the law abiding citizens that buy guns commit crimes the criminals never obtain their guns through illegal means
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registering gun buyers in border towns costs a lot less money than building a wall
especially if your aim is to hinder people who might be inclined to conduct their own personal black market arms biz from having anonymous access to product
I don't see the problem
law abiding citizens like you and me can still travel to the border of mexico and texas and buy a gun
AGAIN they can easily side step this law...if youre going to conduct your own black market dont you think you would just take the EASY steps to avoid this bs law????
of course you dont, but then again you have no idea about the history of gun registration :o
again a law that will have absolutely no effect or a wall that will have a great effect...
are you for or against a wall? independent of this law....
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you're so fucking stupid I don't even know where to start sometimes
I've never said
THEN HOW IS THIS LAW GOING TO STOP SHIT???
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AGAIN they can easily side step this law...if youre going to conduct your own black market dont you think you would just take the EASY steps to avoid this bs law????
exactly
If I understand you correctly
the smugglers will lose an easy "source" because they will simply stop buying rifles at gun shops on the Texas Mexico border
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AGAIN they can easily side step this law...if youre going to conduct your own black market dont you think you would just take the EASY steps to avoid this bs law????
of course you dont, but then again you have no idea about the history of gun registration :o
again a law that will have absolutely no effect or a wall that will have a great effect...
are you for or against a wall? independent of this law....
a wall for what?
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yes of course
and now lurker
Really? Where did you read that besides La La Land?