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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Wrestling Board => Topic started by: Montague on December 28, 2010, 11:18:02 AM
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I've always respected Lance's insight on the business.
Likewise, I think he really hits the nail on the head in this clip concerning what it would take to see wrestling make a comeback, and also the obstacle it faces: namely, being too tightly scripted.
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Always enjoyed Strom's work in ECW and then after I liked all the stuff I've read about the guy. He has it together.
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I saw him train here a while back shortly before WM18 when Hogan fought the Rock. He did arms and he was quiet and very focused.
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He got screwed.
Having Lance Storm on your active roster, but leaving him off the biggest show of the year is almost as bad as doing the same thing with Hennig.
WTF!?!?
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He got screwed.
Having Lance Storm on your active roster, but leaving him off the biggest show of the year is almost as bad as doing the same thing with Hennig.
WTF!?!?
Agreed 100%
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Lance is such a cool guy. I like where he breaks down the Flair/Steiner deal..... I'm going to see if I can find that match, if anybody else can, please post it.....
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http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9f5oo_ric-flair-vs-scott-steiner-wcw-heav_news
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9f619_ric-flair-vs-scott-steiner-wcw-heav_sport
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Monty, were there any spots that jumped out at you? i didn't think it looked like a bad match, but I don't see things the same way. The one thing I will say about Lance's thoughts on it were he mentioned this being the time when Flair was having anxiety attacks, etc... and alluded to maybe Flair was doing it to try to protect himself... I think of it in a different way. If Flair was that checked out mentallly, perhaps he was just "off" in the ring during that time.... it's just so odd to me that Scott is so vocal about how hated Flair was in the locker-room, etc... but you don't hear anybody else saying much about it....maybe Shane Douglas...haha
EDIT: a couple of spots I noticed was the bridge towards the end, the inside cradle looked awkward and on the lean ins that Steiner was doing to call his spots, it seemed they took too long.....perhaps thats because Scott always sounds like he is speaking with a mouth full of mashed potatoes....haha
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I agree with you that it didn’t look horrible.
Lance has much better insight than I do, but IMO, nothing screamed, “obvious.”
I think that, compared to a lot of Flair’s other matches from that time, there was a noticeable difference.
Also, Scotty Steiner was a very good worker, and I’m confident that Flair could have had a much better match with him, but I don’t know if that’s incontrovertible evidence of sabotage.
You also bring up a good point that Flair was, indeed, having some issues in his personal & professional lives at this time, and it’s quite conceivable that he was just having a bad night.
Although, I don’t think that Steiner was out of line in his speculation.
As far as Ric’s locker room reputation - it sounds as if the people who liked him LOVED him, but the ones who weren’t fond of him were quite critical and vocal in their disapproval.
Bret told a funny story about the boys returning to the hotel after partying - this was maybe the week before the WWF’s new stringent drug testing policy took effect.
They wanted to carry the party over to Flair’s luxury suite, but he was still out on the town.
McMahon himself (who was also living it up one last time with the boys) demanded the key from the front desk.
He and everyone else marched up to Flair’s room, raded the bar, passed around joints, and many took turns pissing in Ric’s bed - including VINCE.
“I remember Hercules and Curt laughing as thety hosed it down, and for some reason, I thought nobody would have done this to Harley Race!”
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...perhaps thats because Scott always sounds like he is speaking with a mouth full of mashed potatoes....haha
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I agree with you that it didn’t look horrible.
Lance has much better insight than I do, but IMO, nothing screamed, “obvious.”
I think that, compared to a lot of Flair’s other matches from that time, there was a noticeable difference.
Also, Scotty Steiner was a very good worker, and I’m confident that Flair could have had a much better match with him, but I don’t know if that’s incontrovertible evidence of sabotage.
You also bring up a good point that Flair was, indeed, having some issues in his personal & professional lives at this time, and it’s quite conceivable that he was just having a bad night.
Although, I don’t think that Steiner was out of line in his speculation.
As far as Ric’s locker room reputation - it sounds as if the people who liked him LOVED him, but the ones who weren’t fond of him were quite critical and vocal in their disapproval.
Bret told a funny story about the boys returning to the hotel after partying - this was maybe the week before the WWF’s new stringent drug testing policy took effect.
They wanted to carry the party over to Flair’s luxury suite, but he was still out on the town.
McMahon himself (who was also living it up one last time with the boys) demanded the key from the front desk.
He and everyone else marched up to Flair’s room, raded the bar, passed around joints, and many took turns pissing in Ric’s bed - including VINCE.
“I remember Hercules and Curt laughing as thety hosed it down, and for some reason, I thought nobody would have done this to Harley Race!”
True about Race....but i think thats because they were scared shitless of Harley, not necessarily that they don't respect Flair.
Someone should come out with a book that is nothing but the road stories. That would be an awesome read !!!!
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haha, imagine in the heat of a match after 30 minutes of going at it with a few thousand people screaming and he leans in to give you a spot...."Mmmmmfrmmmmssshhh, shwooullllddder block, pleeeeeessss slam, you old bastard......"
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True about Race....but i think thats because they were scared shitless of Harley, not necessarily that they don't respect Flair.
Someone should come out with a book that is nothing but the road stories. That would be an awesome read !!!!
Apparently Harley had tonnes of road stories.
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Apparently Harley had tonnes of road stories.
i don't think he ever would, but I would love to read a Race book.
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i don't think he ever would, but I would love to read a Race book.
Oh yes....Flair told a story once of how he travelled on the road with Harley and Dick Murdock and how Harley whipped out a bottle of Jack and took a few swings, passed it to Murdock who was driving who also took a few swings and then they passed it to Flair and said, "If you wanna hang with us you'd better drink up!"
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Oh yes....Flair told a story once of how he travelled on the road with Harley and Dick Murdock and how Harley whipped out a bottle of Jack and took a few swings, passed it to Murdock who was driving who also took a few swings and then they passed it to Flair and said, "If you wanna hang with us you'd better drink up!"
haha, wasn't that in Flair's book? One of the craziest road stories in the book is Flair traveling with Brute Bernard and the Missouri Mauler. They both hated black people and they were driving along some desolate road and a few were fishing off a bridge.....they jumped out of the car and chased them around threatening to throw them off the bridge.....can't remember if they actually did......haha.....now that will get you some heel heat for the show in that town..... ;D
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haha, wasn't that in Flair's book? One of the craziest road stories in the book is Flair traveling with Brute Bernard and the Missouri Mauler. They both hated black people and they were driving along some desolate road and a few were fishing off a bridge.....they jumped out of the car and chased them around threatening to throw them off the bridge.....can't remember if they actually did......haha.....now that will get you some heel heat for the show in that town..... ;D
It certainly was in Flairs book. I love those stories. Apparently there are quite a few different road stories. Another infamous story was told by Billy Jack Haynes who claimed that in late 1986 he and Hogan were driving and Hogan was dangerously speeding while coked up and drunk. Not sure as to the truth of that because we all know that Haynes is one of those guys that is jealous that he didn't make the spotlight and now he has an axe to grind.
Holy S**t! Thats a pretty hardcore story. Can you imagine if they through them off the bridge?
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haha, imagine in the heat of a match after 30 minutes of going at it with a few thousand people screaming and he leans in to give you a spot...."Mmmmmfrmmmmssshhh, shwooullllddder block, pleeeeeessss slam, you old bastard......"
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!
I literally just laughed out loud for almost 3 minutes straight at that!!
I had to wipe my eyes from crying I was laughing so damned hard.
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LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!
I literally just laughed out loud for almost 3 minutes straight at that!!
I had to wipe my eyes from crying I was laughing so damned hard.
;D Me and a group of friends, althought the biggest Flair marks on the planet, couldn't help but laugh when Steiner cut that promo. So we would just randomly say that. hahaha
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Lance is the man. If you haven't checked out his site, it's worth the time.
http://www.stormwrestling.com/index1.html (http://www.stormwrestling.com/index1.html)
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This was a good angle Storm was involved in, and like many of the better ones from that time, contained a fair bit of truth...and Dawn Marie:
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Also, The Wrestling Observer is reporting that Brandon Barker, a graduate of Lance Storm's wrestling school in Calgary, signed a WWE developmental deal back in October of 2010.
He will be reporting to FCW to begin his developmental training once he gets his US work Visa.
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This was a good angle Storm was involved in, and like many of the better ones from that time, contained a fair bit of truth...and Dawn Marie:
Look how hot Dawn looked.... :)
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This guy is awesome.
If they could elevate Benoit for a title run, they should have given this guy at least a chance at it too. Instead they buried him with gimmicks and tag team runs.
>:(
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This guy is awesome.
If they could elevate Benoit for a title run, they should have given this guy at least a chance at it too. Instead they buried him with gimmicks and tag team runs.
>:(
You know what?
I’ve thought that same thing.
The only explanation I can come up with is maybe they figured, “Hey, we already have a Benoit, and one is enough.”
Or…
“We already have one muscular Canadian guy who is an outstanding technician with mediocre mic. skills.”
Still, it would have been nice to see them do something substantial with Lance & Benoit and/or Jericho.
All three of those guys had such a rich history - being from Canada, training in the Dungeon, working in ECW & Japan (at times, together).
I believe Lance also served on & off as a booker over the years.
From interviews and articles, you can tell he’s got a great head for the business, and was an excellent worker from a technical standpoint; as well, he played his character to a “T.”
But yes, I share the belief that he was drastically underused/misused in the Fed.
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Going to be a life long regret for him, and his fans.
Vince has no soft spot for straight shooters even if they are technically brilliant.
Storm does have a resemblance to Benoit though. The company probably didn't want 2 versions on the cards, what with Vince's obsession with behemoths.
If he'd been kept around and paid his dues..........
He left in 2004 and Benoit snapped in 2007 though. Maybe that resemblance killed his chances as the WWE distanced itself from all things resembling Benoit. Or maybe he was done with wrestling and wanted to stay home.
Our loss.
:(
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When you think about it, Storm is a credit to the business in more ways than one.
He's always kept his nose clean.
Drug free - never got hooked on pain-killer, roids, or recs.
No enemies.
Didn't burn bridges.
Not bitter.
You never heard any stories about him getting into anything bad...
...never killed anyone.
See, WWE?
He wasn't "just another Benoit."
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When you think about it, Storm is a credit to the business in more ways than one.
He's always kept his nose clean.
Drug free - never got hooked on pain-killer, roids, or recs.
No enemies.
Didn't burn bridges.
Not bitter.
You never heard any stories about him getting into anything bad...
...never killed anyone.
See, WWE?
He wasn't "just another Benoit."
Vince aint listening.
???
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I think we come up with some pretty good ideas here.
If either of the "big two" bothered to read this board, they'd get, FOR FREE, intelligent fan perspective & feedback, some good suggestions for product improvement, etc.
Then, once we see them incoporating some of our ideas, we can start charging for the good stuff.
:)
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I think we come up with some pretty good ideas here.
If either of the "big two" bothered to read this board, they'd get, FOR FREE, intelligent fan perspective & feedback, some good suggestions for product improvement, etc.
Then, once we see them incoporating some of our ideas, we can start charging for the good stuff.
:)
If I was a part of creative and allowed freedom of choice I could conjure up some hardcore ideas and finishes...not a Dusty finish :P
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I've always thought a different presentation could also help.....see what you guys think.
Move announcers table away from the ring, get rid of the ramp and conduct interviews back at the announcers podium and only on occasion have them go to the ring with the mic. Make it mean something.
Cut down on guys talking who clearly should not be. Bring back REAL managers. Guys that can help get the talent over.
Bring back the tag-team division. Great way to get more guys exposure and let them develop.
I know this sounds a little crazy, but cut back a bit on the production. Not every wrestler deserves a 5 minute music video, cut down on pyros, etc... save that for the true stars and PPV's.
Just a few ideas off the top of my head. This could be a good thread all on its own.
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I always like the little boxes before a match that had the guys cut a mini promo.
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I always like the little boxes before a match that had the guys cut a mini promo.
That would be a great way to try to get some of the non-talkers over. they can recut them, etc... much like in the old territory days when they did the promos for individual cards......ie: "Sunday, 3:15, Greenville Memorial Auditorium.....Nature Boy Ric Flair takes on Chief Wahoo McDaniels for the US title..." Then Wahoo would cut a promo......later in the show, same thing, then Flair cuts a promo. Those were awesome.
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They definitely got a lot more heat going back then.
They had managers that could rile up a dead person and things felt personal, like believable life and death stakes. Titles were held for a long time, which meant losing them was a very big deal and an even bigger springboard for hostility and further feuding, let alone the heat stirred up by any newcomers who felt entitled to the belt.
It's a mess. A great big steaming, overpaid corporate mess with Hugh Hefner aspirations taking time away from marinading the matt monsters into a believable force of will power, wrestling skill and the odd appearance of lady luck to make things interesting.
>:(
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They definitely got a lot more heat going back then.
They had managers that could rile up a dead person and things felt personal, like believable life and death stakes. Titles were held for a long time, which meant losing them was a very big deal and an even bigger springboard for hostility and further feuding, let alone the heat stirred up by any newcomers who felt entitled to the belt.
It's a mess. A great big steaming, overpaid corporate mess with Hugh Hefner aspirations taking time away from marinading the matt monsters into a believable force of will power, wrestling skill and the odd appearance of lady luck to make things interesting.
>:(
Great analysis. And I totally agree on the titles. They have turned them into meaningless props.
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I've always thought a different presentation could also help.....see what you guys think.
Move announcers table away from the ring, get rid of the ramp and conduct interviews back at the announcers podium and only on occasion have them go to the ring with the mic. Make it mean something.
Cut down on guys talking who clearly should not be. Bring back REAL managers. Guys that can help get the talent over.
Bring back the tag-team division. Great way to get more guys exposure and let them develop.
I know this sounds a little crazy, but cut back a bit on the production. Not every wrestler deserves a 5 minute music video, cut down on pyros, etc... save that for the true stars and PPV's.
Just a few ideas off the top of my head. This could be a good thread all on its own.
All excellent ideas......i'll add one more....
Recruit wrestlers from Japan!
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All excellent ideas......i'll add one more....
Recruit wrestlers from Japan!
Great idea.....in the 80's, that was where wrestlers went to become more well rounded and to test themselves. i think experience in Japan helps a wrestler connect with the crowd in a special way that can't happen here in the states.
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Great idea.....in the 80's, that was where wrestlers went to become more well rounded and to test themselves. i think experience in Japan helps a wrestler connect with the crowd in a special way that can't happen here in the states.
Japan also forces wrestlers to learn how to get over using ring skills instead of their characters and interviews.
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Japan also forces wrestlers to learn how to get over using ring skills instead of their characters and interviews.
And i enjoy the strong/stiff style it brings.....not over the top jumping beans, but it just adds an aura of "realism" to it.
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And i enjoy the strong/stiff style it brings.....not over the top jumping beans, but it just adds an aura of "realism" to it.
I miss those old schooled Japanese arm drags.
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And i enjoy the strong/stiff style it brings.....not over the top jumping beans, but it just adds an aura of "realism" to it.
Exactly!!
Just because we know it's a work doesn't mean we don't want the portrayal of realism for a good show.
We know that Die Hard was only a movie, but had they used Mighty Morphin Power Rangers fight/action choreography, the film would never have become a cult classic.
Suspend our disbelief without kayfabing us.
That's all we ask today.
It would make for a better product, and nobody would feel slighted or insulted.
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Good article(as usual) by Lance
Too Sensitive
April 28, 2011
I’ve been meaning to write this article for quite a while, because it has been eating at me since I heard about Fit Finlay being released by WWE. For those of you who may not have heard the story, a month or two back Fit (a WWE agent) was released by the company after they received complaints about a live event from The National Guard. From what I understand The National Guard is a major sponsor of WWE’s and they were offended when members attended a WWE live event and witnessed The Miz interrupt the playing of the National Anthem. The interruption was obviously designed to get heat on Miz, but apparently it got the wrong kind of heat because The National Guard saw this as an inappropriate means by which to generate heat and complained to WWE about it.
With The National Guard being a major sponsor, WWE needed to act and I guess since Fit was in charge of the event and likely the one to make the call about the Anthem, he was held responsible and released. I don’t want to get into whether this firing was justified or not, but I really hope Fit will be brought back at some point, but what I want to discuss is, in a World so worried about being politically correct, and not offending anyone, is it even possible to get heat anymore.
There are so many tried and true methods of generating heat in this business that just can’t be done anymore. When you look back at the history of this business and what heels did to get heat and draw money, so many of them would be unacceptable now in the corporate main stream world of WWE. I want to be clear here too, I’m not blaming anyone specifically for this, it’s what society has become, but I’m worried that if this age of having to be politically correct to the Nth degree continues, story telling and the ability to stir emotions will become a thing of the past.
How can we have heroes in wrestling if our villains are not allowed to do or say anything that might upset anyone? The interrupting of the National Anthem is a prime example. As part of the Un-Americans in 2002 we got a lot of heat for our anti-American stance, and on at least one occasion interrupted Lillian Garcia when she sang America the Beautiful. We bad mouthed the US and even “attempted” to burn the American flag in Madison Square Garden. Was this offensive? Of course it was but that was the whole point. It was meant to offend, so when “The American Bad Ass” the Undertaker, JBL, and other proud American’s took exception to it and stood up for their Country and made us stop, they were seen as heroes.
Where would WWE Hall of Famer Jim Duggan be if not for Nikoli Volkoff, and the Iron Sheik? “Iran #1, Russia #1, USA haaatoo (spitting sound)”. These guys spit on the US for the sole purpose of riling up flag waving Americans, which were the root of Duggan’s fan base. If you look at the big picture, angles like this actually promote patriotism, as did Miz’s interruption of the national anthem.
Now look at R Truth’s heel turn a couple of weeks ago. I heard WWE received complaints from anti-smoking groups claiming that by having R-Truth smoke on TV they were promoting cigarettes, because it gave smoking that outlaw bad boy image, and would promote smoking to kids.
How are we as an industry supposed to draw an emotional reaction from our fan base if we aren’t allowed to anger people on some level? If our industry were always under the handicaps of today’s “moral standards” where would we be?
Hulk Hogan initially got over as a flag waving American beating the evil Iron Sheik. Would this be allowed today, or would there be fears that it would generate tension in the Muslim community?
Rick Rude would not be allowed to call people “fat out of shape sweat hogs” because he would be insulting and offending people who suffer from obesity.
How would you book a Ric Flair – Dusty Rhodes feud, if Ric wasn’t allowed to insult Dusty for being working class, or brag about being a limousine riding, jet flying, …? We can’t vilify the rich or the poor because that would be discriminatory.
Baron Von Raschke and Colonel DeBeers got heat being white supremacists. There is no way we could use racism to draw heat today. No evil Russian out to bring down democracy, no sneaky Japanese villains ready to “Pearl Harbor” you the second you turn your back. No Skandor Akbar in World Class, No Abu Wizal in Stampede, No Wild Samoans, No Headshrinkers.
What about Gorgeous George or Adrian Street? Would they be considered anti gay for being promoted as a heel for their “flamboyant“ antics?
I’m not saying we should be promoting racism or gay bashing or anything else just for the sake of drawing heat. I’m just saying that offensive characters like this can be used while still sending a good message if done properly and people should relax and look at the over all story being told.
You can’t make a movie like Schindler’s List without racist Nazi villains. Now I’m not comparing the story of Oskar Schindler to a pro-wrestling angle or storyline, but at the end of the day a story is a story, be it real or made up and in order to have Super Heroes, you have to be allowed to have Super Villains. Sponsors and fans shouldn’t give up on, or boycott the Story Tellers for the villainous actions of characters in their stories, provided the over all message of the story is still a positive one.
Food for thought,
Lance Storm
http://www.stormwrestling.com/042811.html
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Superb article - as always - from Storm.
Right on the money!!
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You know what?
I’ve thought that same thing.
The only explanation I can come up with is maybe they figured, “Hey, we already have a Benoit, and one is enough.”
Or…
“We already have one muscular Canadian guy who is an outstanding technician with mediocre mic. skills.”
Still, it would have been nice to see them do something substantial with Lance & Benoit and/or Jericho.
All three of those guys had such a rich history - being from Canada, training in the Dungeon, working in ECW & Japan (at times, together).
I believe Lance also served on & off as a booker over the years.
From interviews and articles, you can tell he’s got a great head for the business, and was an excellent worker from a technical standpoint; as well, he played his character to a “T.”
But yes, I share the belief that he was drastically underused/misused in the Fed.
Substantial with Jericho?
The man was the first UNDISPUTED WWF CHAMPION (and he beat Rock and Austin the same night to do it). IF that ain't substantial, what is?
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Substantial with Jericho?
The man was the first UNDISPUTED WWF CHAMPION (and he beat Rock and Austin the same night to do it). IF that ain't substantial, what is?
I meant I would have liked to see Lance involved in a substantial angle with Benoit and/or Jericho.
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Great article by Storm. I love our country, served in the military, etc... but that type of thing would not insult me. It was clearly done to draw heat and as long as Miz got his well deserved beatdown for it in the end, I would be cool with it. there is a difference on doing those types of things and then having the justified blow-off vs just doing garbage to insult people. I actually thought much of the "satanic" crap VKM did with UT back in the day was in very poor taste and really never had a point as Deadman rarely got any real comeuppance in any of his fueds. But that is just my opinion. If you don't like it, turn the channel. Simple as that.
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Great article by Storm. I love our country, served in the military, etc... but that type of thing would not insult me. It was clearly done to draw heat and as long as Miz got his well deserved beatdown for it in the end, I would be cool with it. there is a difference on doing those types of things and then having the justified blow-off vs just doing garbage to insult people. I actually thought much of the "satanic" crap VKM did with UT back in the day was in very poor taste and really never had a point as Deadman rarely got any real comeuppance in any of his fueds. But that is just my opinion. If you don't like it, turn the channel. Simple as that.
Oh, you're back!
We'll have to find someone else to use for a whipping-boy, now.
:D
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Oh, you're back!
We'll have to find someone else to use for a whipping-boy, now.
:D
;D Have to stay away a bit to generate some heat. Don't want to be like the current WWE where EVERY star is over exposed and becomes stale and boring. 8)
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;D Have to stay away a bit to generate some heat. Don't want to be like the current WWE where EVERY star is over exposed and becomes stale and boring. 8)
Just don't kayfabe on Twitter and you'll be okay.
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;D Have to stay away a bit to generate some heat. Don't want to be like the current WWE where EVERY star is over exposed and becomes stale and boring. 8)
Holy shit...where the hell were you dude? I thought you did a stint in Japan 8)
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Just don't kayfabe on Twitter and you'll be okay.
haha, I have no idea of how to even tweet, or twit or whatever the hell they call it.
Playboy, my work schedule has changed drastically and I'm trying to get adjusted to it.
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haha, I have no idea of how to even tweet, or twit or whatever the hell they call it.
Playboy, my work schedule has changed drastically and I'm trying to get adjusted to it.
Lol...cool. Nice to hear from you again. :)
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Lol...cool. Nice to hear from you again. :)
Show's a tard.
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Dammit!
I keep forgetting...
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Show's a tard.
Oh that's nice.... ;D
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Oh that's nice.... ;D
;)
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Okay, we can start on Mass.
He hasn't been here in a few days.
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Okay, we can start on Mass.
He hasn't been here in a few days.
We were both lurking in parts unknown. Rest assured mass will have a huge announcement forthcoming.... stay tuned fans !!
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We were both lurking in parts unknown. Rest assured mass will have a huge announcement forthcoming.... stay tuned fans !!
Does it concern WM 34?
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Does it concern WM 34?
Lets just say that there is a large styrofoam egg and we aren't sure what will hatch.......but it might involve someone running thru a fake brick wall and tripping as he does it.......
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Lets just say that there is a large styrofoam egg and we aren't sure what will hatch.......but it might involve someone running thru a fake brick wall and tripping as he does it.......
Daths Uncle Freeeyad!
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Does it concern WM 34?
Show versus taker....Show will end the streak ;D
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Show versus taker....Show will end the streak ;D
mass is going to second me to the ring and use that perfume gun that Martel used back in the day. It should be an easy victory.
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haha, I have no idea of how to even tweet, or twit or whatever the hell they call it.
Playboy, my work schedule has changed drastically and I'm trying to get adjusted to it.
Translation: I have a job now.
I would say that is a pretty drastic change.
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Translation: I have a job now.
I would say that is a pretty drastic change.
Show worked by serving his country, defending people like the Bush's, Obama's, & Lindsay Lohan.
I'd have questioned the sense in "working" after that, too!
;)
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Translation: I have a job now.
I would say that is a pretty drastic change.
Oh brother............ look who's talking. ::)
;D