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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: tonymctones on March 09, 2011, 04:27:03 PM
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and tell me why youre against the things walker has proposed?
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/08/wisconsin.budget.emails/index.html?iref=allsearch
"An e-mail exchange released by Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's office on Tuesday has revealed a series of potential Republican concessions to a three-week standoff over a budget bill that would restrict the collective bargaining rights of most public workers."
why are against this?
"It would also restrict the collective bargaining power of public-sector unions to be limited to wages, and would be capped to the rate of inflation. Pay raises beyond the inflation index would require a voter referendum.The original bill would also restrict contracts and would mandate annual votes for unions to keep their certification."
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Breaking news happening right now
Capitol Chaos: Republicans Vote on Collective Bargaining Changes
MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate have voted to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from public workers after discovering a way to bypass the chamber's missing Democrats.
All 14 Senate Democrats fled to Illinois nearly three weeks ago, preventing the chamber from having enough members present to consider Gov. Scott Walker's so-called "budget repair bill" -- a proposal introduced to plug a $137 million budget shortfall.
The Senate requires a quorum to take up any measures that spend money. But Republicans on Wednesday split from the legislation the proposal to curtail union rights, and a special conference committee of state lawmakers approved that bill a short time later.
The move set up a vote in the Senate, which voted mere moments later.
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/117700913.html
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and tell me why youre against the things walker has proposed?
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/08/wisconsin.budget.emails/index.html?iref=allsearch
"An e-mail exchange released by Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's office on Tuesday has revealed a series of potential Republican concessions to a three-week standoff over a budget bill that would restrict the collective bargaining rights of most public workers."
why are against this?
"It would also restrict the collective bargaining power of public-sector unions to be limited to wages, and would be capped to the rate of inflation. Pay raises beyond the inflation index would require a voter referendum.The original bill would also restrict contracts and would mandate annual votes for unions to keep their certification."
I could not say how I feel about this any more eloquently than Democratic Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller did:
"In 30 minutes, 18 state Senators undid 50 years of civil rights in Wisconsin. Their disrespect for the people of Wisconsin and their rights is an outrage that will never be forgotten," said Democratic Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller. "Tonight, 18 Senate Republicans conspired to take government away from the people."
Understand that this is not about public employees bargaining rights so much as it is a political move designed to give the Republican party more power. It is a divide and conquer strategy, picking off unions one union at a time. Historically, Republicans raise more campaign funds and yet Democrates still get elected. Why do you suppose this is the case? It is the case because union employees are organized and willing to get out an stump for candidates who will represent them. Often this effort wins elections for candidates and sometimes it doesn't.
You and I have been engaged in a discussion that clearly examples how some folks have no idea what public employees do, even when they have family members who are public employees. The laws of supply and demand will eventually prevail. In the current downturned economy with its high unemployment, folks may cling to their jobs despite reductions in wages and benefits. However, when the economy recovers even slightly, there will be a shortage of folks who are willing to accept low paid jobs in public employment. Where I live, jobs in the public sector are going unfilled at present and Oregon has 10% unemployment.
BTW, you should have a conversation with your dad about what is happening with postal workers today. Are you aware that the Post Master General is moving towards privatization? The reason your dad is working a lot of overtime is because the post office is not hiring new employees when vacancies occur. Why is this? It is because the Post Master is seeking to reduce delivery days and moving toward no home delivery. Why do you think the USPS is advertising post office boxes as a better option to home delivery.
Corporate America is seeking through the Republican Party and Tea Party movement to pick off one union at a time until there are no labor unions. Why? Because if there was no organized labor, some folks would work for wages similar to those of the third world countries. And the rich get richer on the backs of the working class. Are we ready for the revolution? I don't think we will get as far as corporations telling us "let them eat cake!" before that happens.
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Taxpayers averaging 44k a year should not be paying more to subsidize union mini-madoffs making double.
Sorry - we are broke - get with the damn program.
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Taxpayers averaging 44k a year should not be paying more to subsidize union mini-madoffs making double.
Sorry - we are broke - get with the damn program.
And how is it that they are subsidizing "union mini-madoff's." Actually there is no comparison between Bernie Madoff and union executives....so I don't get the reference at all.
Many if not most union workers are suffering financially just as is most everyone except perhaps the corporate executives who got us into this mess in the first place.
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All I can say that it is about time - Wisconsin's governor is doing what millions want him to do, as are other states.
The problem is that the union and their protestors yell and scream and berate, while the silent majority is extremely happy with what is going on.
Rising health costs, generous pensions plans... enough is enough...
You all seem to forget - these are government workers, using money paid by the hard working taxpayers. Don't ask for sympathy when they have to pay for their portion of health costs, they don't get full pensions, and they don't get 13 days of holidays, 3 weeks of sick days, and 4 weeks of vacation.
Sorry, millions are not going to give them sympathy, except for the 10,000 yelling and screaming 'union' protestors.
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It needs to be done. End of story
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I could not say how I feel about this any more eloquently than Democratic Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller did:
"In 30 minutes, 18 state Senators undid 50 years of civil rights in Wisconsin. Their disrespect for the people of Wisconsin and their rights is an outrage that will never be forgotten," said Democratic Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller. "Tonight, 18 Senate Republicans conspired to take government away from the people."
Understand that this is not about public employees bargaining rights so much as it is a political move designed to give the Republican party more power. It is a divide and conquer strategy, picking off unions one union at a time. Historically, Republicans raise more campaign funds and yet Democrates still get elected. Why do you suppose this is the case? It is the case because union employees are organized and willing to get out an stump for candidates who will represent them. Often this effort wins elections for candidates and sometimes it doesn't.
You and I have been engaged in a discussion that clearly examples how some folks have no idea what public employees do, even when they have family members who are public employees. The laws of supply and demand will eventually prevail. In the current downturned economy with its high unemployment, folks may cling to their jobs despite reductions in wages and benefits. However, when the economy recovers even slightly, there will be a shortage of folks who are willing to accept low paid jobs in public employment. Where I live, jobs in the public sector are going unfilled at present and Oregon has 10% unemployment.
BTW, you should have a conversation with your dad about what is happening with postal workers today. Are you aware that the Post Master General is moving towards privatization? The reason your dad is working a lot of overtime is because the post office is not hiring new employees when vacancies occur. Why is this? It is because the Post Master is seeking to reduce delivery days and moving toward no home delivery. Why do you think the USPS is advertising post office boxes as a better option to home delivery.
Corporate America is seeking through the Republican Party and Tea Party movement to pick off one union at a time until there are no labor unions. Why? Because if there was no organized labor, some folks would work for wages similar to those of the third world countries. And the rich get richer on the backs of the working class. Are we ready for the revolution? I don't think we will get as far as corporations telling us "let them eat cake!" before that happens.
way to respond without answering the question i asked...
why are you against the specific issues in walkers bill individually i want reasons for being against each one...
actually my friend I apparently have a pretty damn good understanding of the issues. From what I understand about the post office youre way of their as well. My pops doesnt work as much overtime lately and they are running on an out of date business model that doesnt let them compete in this market.Just like in the private sector if you have a bad business model then your business fails or if you have bad controls on spending your business fails. YOURE learning that as we speak, the difference is that in the public sector with unions you have the security of knowing that your jobs will always be there which allows you to make idiotic demands like you have. If the unions had conceded when they were asked they wouldnt have been put in this position.
no go back and respond to the original question...
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Again - why should public unions be allowed to exist in the first place?
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and tell me why youre against the things walker has proposed?
why are against this?
"It would also restrict the collective bargaining power of public-sector unions to be limited to wages, and would be capped to the rate of inflation. Pay raises beyond the inflation index would require a voter referendum.The original bill would also restrict contracts and would mandate annual votes for unions to keep their certification."
Because it's a bad deal. Benefits are major deciding factors for anyone considering a new job, whether they are in a union or not. Most of these ridiculous numbers you hear about how overpaid the Wi. faculty is are tied to exaggerations of their benefits. Of course giving up the right to negotiate benefits and only being able to negotiate wages would be a huge issue, especially if one of the provisions of the bill is tying potential wage increases to the CPI. The significance is compounded when you take into account the fact that the unions in question were operating in good faith, while Walker was operating under fraudulent motives.
Sorry, millions are not going to give them sympathy, except for the 10,000 yelling and screaming 'union' protestors.
If this is the case, then why was support of the counterprotests so timid?
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Again - why should public unions be allowed to exist in the first place?
Because employers and employees have fundamentally different interests and -in most cases- employers hold far more leverage.
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A Madison, WI bus driver made $160,000 in 2009. If that doesn't show how broken the system is to these far-lefties then nothing will.
$160,000 for driving a school bus. Really? ::)
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If this is the case, then why was support of the counterprotests so timid?
Because the people who would have been involved in "counter protests" were too busy working and providing for their families instead of using fake sick days because the "union" told them to...
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A Madison, WI bus driver made $160,000 in 2009. If that doesn't show how broken the system is to these far-lefties then nothing will.
$160,000 for driving a school bus. Really? ::)
First of all, Wisconsin's public transit system is growing at a breakneck pace. Secondly, a hiring freeze put in place during the previous contract period resulted in there being a deficit of available workers which in turn resulted in many workers working hundreds of hours of overtime.
No system is perfect, but that's not really a good example of how the union system is broken.
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Because the people who would have been involved in "counter protests" were too busy working and providing for their families instead of using fake sick days because the "union" told them to...
::) Despite the fact that most counterprotests were scheduled for weekends. Tea baggers never seemed to have a problem gathering supporters.
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First of all, Wisconsin's public transit system is growing at a breakneck pace. Secondly, a hiring freeze put in place during the previous contract period resulted in there being a deficit of available workers which in turn resulted in many workers working hundreds of hours of overtime.
No system is perfect, but that's not really a good example of how the union system is broken.
Ahh, so you're justifying a school bus driver making $160,000 a year. There are MDs that don't make that much. ::)
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::) Despite the fact that most counterprotests were scheduled for weekends. Tea baggers never seemed to have a problem gathering supporters.
Roll your eyes all you want. Your above post somehow justifying a bus driver making 160k reveals your grasp of the issues.
Great..... no better way to spend the weekend than "counter protesting...." ::)
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not school bus, public transit. its a lot of money but he is working a shit load of hours, pay is 26 dollars an hour
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A bus driver should not be making $160,000 a year and it just goes to show how out of control these public unions are. Anyone justifying it truly has a severe disconnect from reality.
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Listen live for up to the minute discussion.
http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesykes
http://www.620wtmj.com/home/ondemand/44930432.html
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not school bus, public transit. its a lot of money but he is working a shit load of hours, pay is 26 dollars an hour
I don't care if he is working 100hrs a week, no way in any universe that warrants the PUBLIC to pay him 160k a yr !!! Get out of here with that garbage. 26 an hour for that job is insane too.
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Ahh, so you're justifying a school bus driver making $160,000 a year. There are MDs that don't make that much. ::)
::) I didn't "justify" anything, I explained how this wasn't an example of a broken union system.
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Roll your eyes all you want. Your above post somehow justifying a bus driver making 160k reveals your grasp of the issues.
Great..... no better way to spend the weekend than "counter protesting...." ::)
The discrepancy between the supporters on each side shows where the public stands on the issue, which was the point. ::)
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with the amount of hours he's working you will have to hire another person to cover the hours,so now you have another persons 40m hour pay and his benefit package to pay for . i don't know what should a bus driver make an hour ???
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with the amount of hours he's working you will have to hire another person to cover the hours,so now you have another persons 40m hour pay and his benefit package to pay for . i don't know what should a bus driver make an hour ???
Which was the initial problem to begin with, their weren't enough drivers to cover the amount of routes that needed to be filled.
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The discrepancy between the supporters on each side shows where the public stands on the issue, which was the point. ::)
No it doesn't. Surveys say otherwise.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/18/labor-union-polls-wisconsin-protests_n_825363.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/18/labor-union-polls-wisconsin-protests_n_825363.html)
::)
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with the amount of hours he's working you will have to hire another person to cover the hours,so now you have another persons 40m hour pay and his benefit package to pay for . i don't know what should a bus driver make an hour ???
But the deal is that if you are paying somebody 40 or 50 hrs of OT (time and a half), you could most certainly hire a few more workers and save money. And the term "benefit package" isn't an entitlement, so that SHOULD be a variable. I've had jobs that didn't include health insurance, etc.. so why should a bus driver have that as mandatory? That should be a stepping stone job to a better one.
And the "hiring freeze" mentioned by another poster because a of contract dispute simply makes the case for getting out of these contracts and union controls. Where I live, NC, unions are weak. So if bus drivers decided to not show up, guess what the most likely scenario is? John Q. would take his place on the route tomorrow and not miss a beat.
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so he should have no health insurance while he's working as a bus driver ::)
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Should be privatized.
Taxpayers can't afford this chaos any longer.
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so he should have no health insurance while he's working as a bus driver ::)
Buy his own, like millions of people do. If the taxpayer can't afford to provide it to him, which we can't anymore, then get his own. Simple as that. And on 160k a yr, I think he could afford it, huh? 8)
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But the deal is that if you are paying somebody 40 or 50 hrs of OT (time and a half), you could most certainly hire a few more workers and save money. And the term "benefit package" isn't an entitlement, so that SHOULD be a variable. I've had jobs that didn't include health insurance, etc.. so why should a bus driver have that as mandatory? That should be a stepping stone job to a better one.
And the "hiring freeze" mentioned by another poster because a of contract dispute simply makes the case for getting out of these contracts and union controls. Where I live, NC, unions are weak. So if bus drivers decided to not show up, guess what the most likely scenario is? John Q. would take his place on the route tomorrow and not miss a beat.
Have you ever driven a bus? It actually requires skill and a mediocre bus driver costs lives .When you couple that with the rapid growth of the transit system in Madison, no you don't want a heavy turnover rate for those positions. For a multitude of fairly obvious reasons, it's a job where you want to retain skilled workers.It's not a stepping stone job. Everyone is not going to be a lawyer.
No it doesn't. Surveys say otherwise.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/18/labor-union-polls-wisconsin-protests_n_825363.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/18/labor-union-polls-wisconsin-protests_n_825363.html)
::)
That article is an argument for the unreliability of polls. And still, when deconstructed, they pretty much show the public being pro-union. Regardless, the simple fact of the matter is that if there were more people who supported Walker, the counterprotests would have been bigger.
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Buy his own, like millions of people do. If the taxpayer can't afford to provide it to him, which we can't anymore, then get his own. Simple as that. And on 160k a yr, I think he could afford it, huh? 8)
but i have a feeling you would want to pay him 12 dollars an hour not going to buy insurance for that ::)
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Have you ever driven a bus? It actually requires skill and a mediocre bus driver costs lives .When you couple that with the rapid growth of the transit system in Madison, no you don't want a heavy turnover rate for those positions. For a multitude of fairly obvious reasons, it's a job where you want to retain skilled workers.It's not a stepping stone job. Everyone is not going to be a lawyer.
Actually i have, on a very limited basis I was required to when stationed in Iceland, but that is neither here nor there. You simply can not justify paying 160k a yr for one bus driver. The laws of supply and demand do not dictate it.....the only thing that dictated it was the "hiring freeze" from "union contracts."
That article is an argument for the unreliability of polls. And still, when deconstructed, they pretty much show the public being pro-union. Regardless, the simple fact of the matter is that if there were more people who supported Walker, the counterprotests would have been bigger.
That was why I used that site and poll. You state it like a fact that overwhelmingly people are against Walker. That is simply not the case at all. Are the unions more vocal and organized? Sure. Doesn't mean that the majority of citizens agree with them.
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Conservatives are mostly people who work and don't have time to scream like idiots to demand more free shit from already overburdened taxpayers.
I would fire every single of these union thugs and open every job for hire to the general public. Millions will flood the state tommorow for those jobs.
Enough is enough w these greedy pigs ever demanding more free benes and perks that were not affordable in the best of times, let alone now.
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but i have a feeling you would want to pay him 12 dollars an hour not going to buy insurance for that ::)
12hr plus insurance would be very doable. Someone quoted $20+....for a bus driver? Nah. ::)
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Actually i have, on a very limited basis I was required to when stationed in Iceland, but that is neither here nor there. You simply can not justify paying 160k a yr for one bus driver. The laws of supply and demand do not dictate it.....the only thing that dictated it was the "hiring freeze" from "union contracts."
::) There is a difference between explaining why 1 bus driver made an anomalistic sum during a specific period of time and arguing that said sum should be his base pay.
Hiring freeze was dictated by the city budget- they intentionally opted to force Metro to use overtime instead of new workers as a means of saving money. This was reversed when it became obvious that "supply" of buses far exceeded the "demand" from riders and overtime was actually turning out to be the more expensive option.
So , once again, this is hardly an example of the broken union system.
That was why I used that site and poll. You state it like a fact that overwhelmingly people are against Walker. That is simply not the case at all. Are the unions more vocal and organized? Sure. Doesn't mean that the majority of citizens agree with them.
I was responding to the poster who claimed that outside of the pro-union protesters, there was no public union support. It is a simple fact that if anti-union sentiment was really that all encompassing, then the counterprotests would have been larger.
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12hr plus insurance would be very doable. Someone quoted $20+....for a bus driver? Nah. ::)
This would actually be ridiculous. A bad bus driver is actually LETHAL. This is a job where you don't want to scrape the bottom of the barrel.
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This would actually be ridiculous. A bad bus driver is actually LETHAL. This is a job where you don't want to scrape the bottom of the barrel.
Are you saying by paying a busdriver $26/hr + full bennies makes him/her a better driver?
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Are you saying by paying a busdriver $26/hr + full bennies makes him/her a better driver?
Experience makes someone a better driver. A decent salary will go a long way in retaining experienced drivers.
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Why not pay them 100 an hour?
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Why not pay them 100 an hour?
whats that ???
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Bus driver.
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whats that ???
i know bus driver,what do you mean by the comment
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Take a hint. If the bus driver is so vital - why stop at 26 a hour and not pay 100 an hour.
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i think you just have to pay a fair wage so you can keep them to have an experienced person.i don't think 12hr is going to do that
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What will and who decides.
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i think you just have to pay a fair wage so you can keep them to have an experienced person.i don't think 12hr is going to do that
What special skill is required to drive a bus that would merit high pay?
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What special skill is required to drive a bus that would merit high pay?
i'm sure it's not as important as your job ::) but i'm sure it take some know how to manuver them around in a save manner.i don't think you want a new 18 yr old every 3 months doing it
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i'm sure it's not as important as your job ::) but i'm sure it take some know how to manuver them around in a save manner.i don't think you want a new 18 yr old every 3 months doing it
But you have no problem with an 18 yr old preparing food for your consumption? Should they make $26/hr to? I guess its just me put I would think any competent driver would be able to drive a bus, most I have seen are not rocket scientist exploring other career options. So you tell me, since you seem to think you are the authority on "fair pay", what is fair pay for unskilled labor?
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for one thing i don't think its unskilled, and i think it's quite comical that you compare thowing a burger in the microwave the same as driving ten ton bus around full of people on the city streets ;D
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for one thing i don't think its unskilled, and i think it's quite comical that you compare thowing a burger in the microwave the same as driving ten ton bus around full of people on the city streets ;D
Seeing the bus drivers in the Bronx, I prefer the fry guy at Mickey D's to that nonsense.
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Seeing the bus drivers in the Bronx, I prefer the fry guy at Mickey D's to that nonsense.
::)
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i think you just have to pay a fair wage so you can keep them to have an experienced person.i don't think 12hr is going to do that
$26 a fair wage for driving a bus? HAHAHAHAHAHA!
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where did i say 26hr hahahahahahah
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But you have no problem with an 18 yr old preparing food for your consumption? Should they make $26/hr to? I guess its just me put I would think any competent driver would be able to drive a bus, most I have seen are not rocket scientist exploring other career options. So you tell me, since you seem to think you are the authority on "fair pay", what is fair pay for unskilled labor?
Why do you suppose auto insurers adjust rates based on your age?
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If you can pass the training to drive a bus then you're qualified. And that training isn't exactly rocket science. Funny that we've got some union goons on here justifying a bus driver making $160k a year.
There are MDs, PhDs, MBAs, JDs and other advanced degree holders that don't make anywhere near that yet you guys actually think it's acceptable for the taxpayer to foot a $160k/year salary for a driver.
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160 grand is good money, but he probably spent 7 days a week 365 days a year in that bus. i think they should make more than 12 an hour
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If you can pass the training to drive a bus then you're qualified. And that training isn't exactly rocket science. Funny that we've got some union goons on here justifying a bus driver making $160k a year.
There are MDs, PhDs, MBAs, JDs and other advanced degree holders that don't make anywhere near that yet you guys actually think it's acceptable for the taxpayer to foot a $160k/year salary for a driver.
BF - dont you know - its only fair that the MD living in NY, NJ, CT, who spent 250k on schooling, has debt up the wazoo, spent years in residency, and now makes 120k a year at 40 years old, to pay 15k or better in property taxes alone to subsidize the bus driver to make the same salary.
Shit - can't we make the argument that the Doctor performing surgery actually has a LESS impotant function in society than the vital job of driving people from bus stop t bus stop? I mean te doctor is fixing one patient, the driver is literally tranporting thousands of people a year. So, according to that, the bus driver should make more than the doctor if you ask me.
Come on BF -i thought you were smarter than that.
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If you can pass the training to drive a bus then you're qualified. And that training isn't exactly rocket science.
It is a statistical fact that the longer you drive, the fewer accidents you have. I'm not even going to bother posting a study because come-the-fuck-on.
Funny that we've got some union goons on here justifying a bus driver making $160k a year.
Really? Who?
There are MDs, PhDs, MBAs, JDs and other advanced degree holders that don't make anywhere near that yet you guys actually think it's acceptable for the taxpayer to foot a $160k/year salary for a driver.
::) Yes, people on here are arguing that we should stop paying doctors so we can quadruple bus drivers' salaries.
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160 grand is good money, but he probably spent 7 days a week 365 days a year in that bus. i think they should make more than 12 an hour
Prove it. Or are you basing your entire opinionated argument around the hours you think he works?
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the article said he made 26 hr ,so if you times that by 40 i don't think it comes up to 160 grand ;D. but your the real intelligent guy here so you tell me
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i forgot times 52 weeks
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Prove it. Or are you basing your entire opinionated argument around the hours you think he works?
What percentage of Madison bus drivers do you think make upwards of $100k? Would you say it was more than 40%? Less than 0.5%?
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What percentage of Madison bus drivers do you think make upwards of $100k? Would you say it was more than 40%? Less than 0.5%?
::) ::)
Please - the fraud with OT is so rampant by public sector theives its not even funny. If I told you first hand knowledge of stuff in NY that goes on you to would be teabagger.
I really am hoping for a total economic collapse if these publi sector pieces of trash dont deal with this mess. It would make me perfectly smitten to see these leeches try to last a week in the private sector and try to justify their pay and benes.
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Why work towards that PhD or MD when you can drive a bus on the same predetermined route every day and be rewarded with $160,000 of taxpayer money?
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::) ::)
Please - the fraud with OT is so rampant by public sector theives its not even funny. If I told you first hand knowledge of stuff in NY that goes on you to would be teabagger.
::) ::) ::) No, I wouldn't. I live in New York. I'm aware that fraud occurs in both the public and private sectors. Actually, the first thing that comes to mind is the CityTime fiasco. And if we're using a handful of isolated incidents (and make no mistake, a bus driver making 160k is an isolated incident), then CityTime makes an excellent case against privitization.
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::) ::) ::) No, I wouldn't. I live in New York. I'm aware that fraud occurs in both the public and private sectors. Actually, the first thing that comes to mind is the CityTime fiasco. And if we're using a handful of isolated incidents (and make no mistake, a bus driver making 160k is an isolated incident), then CityTime makes an excellent case against privitization.
I know cops and fireman personally who get away with stuff that would mae madoff blush.
BTW - i interview people who want to buy units in he coop where I have my office. I am on the board. I interviewed a garbage man who made 120k last year and had his mother fillout the application and show up to the co-op board meeting because he couldnt handle basic shit.
Please - cry me a river wth your nonsense. We are grossly overpaying all levels of public sector employees and the tax base cant afford it anymore. Period. they will either accept reality or los everything. Personally, I hope they keep up their crap and lose everything and actuallyhaveto compete in the private ector for employment like the rest of us.
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I know cops and fireman personally who get away with stuff that would mae madoff blush.
BTW - i interview people who want to buy units in he coop where I have my office. I am on the board. I interviewed a garbage man who made 120k last year and had his mother fillout the application and show up to the co-op board meeting because he couldnt handle basic shit.
Please - cry me a river wth your nonsense. We are grossly overpaying all levels of public sector employees and the tax base cant afford it anymore. Period. they will either accept reality or los everything. Personally, I hope they keep up their crap and lose everything and actuallyhaveto compete in the private ector for employment like the rest of us.
I don't believe your garbageman story. And if it is true (which I don't think it is) then it is an anomaly. Most new york public sector workers are making a middle class living.
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I don't believe your garbageman story. And if it is true (which I don't think it is) then it is an anomaly. Most new york public sector workers are making a middle class living.
I reviewed the application. 80 salary plus 40k OT.
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for one thing i don't think its unskilled, and i think it's quite comical that you compare thowing a burger in the microwave the same as driving ten ton bus around full of people on the city streets ;D
So by your logic anyone who can get a Class C license becomes skilled labor? And not all restaurants throw a hamburger in the microwave, but I guess you don't have a problem with food poisoning ::)
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Why do you suppose auto insurers adjust rates based on your age?
I'm well aware of why they adjust based on age, whats your point?
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160 grand is good money, but he probably spent 7 days a week 365 days a year in that bus. i think they should make more than 12 an hour
Yeah and I'm sure that's safe, ::)
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Which was the initial problem to begin with, their weren't enough drivers to cover the amount of routes that needed to be filled.
And that seems to be what some of these thick headed folks don't get. Even with the ecconomic downturn, jobs in the public sector are not being filled because folks aren't applying for them. If public employees are so overpaid, why don't the unemployed rush to fill vacant positions in public employment? Why don't some of these folks squawking go work in the public sector if they think it is so wonderful?
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And that seems to be what some of these thick headed folks don't get. Even with the ecconomic downturn, jobs in the public sector are not being filled because folks aren't applying for them. If public employees are so overpaid, why don't the unemployed rush to fill vacant positions in public employment? Why don't some of these folks squawking go work in the public sector if they think it is so wonderful?
Maybe because people have higher aspirations than being a bus driver?
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Salary as a DSNY Sanitation Worker starts at $31,200, and can be increased to a maximum of $67,141 after 5 years of service
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Salary as a DSNY Sanitation Worker starts at $31,200, and can be increased to a maximum of $67,141 after 5 years of service
I reviewed the application myself three weeks ago.
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i'm not saying he didn't make that much, but he must have worked alot of overtime,if theirs trash that has to go and he can work the overtime to move it to you have a problem with him doing it. or do we let it pile up on the streets, and you will be the first to complain
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i'm not saying he didn't make that much, but he must have worked alot of overtime,if theirs trash that has to go and he can work the overtime to move it to you have a problem with him doing it. or do we let it pile up on the streets, and you will be the first to complain
They play tons of games w the OT that if you knew about would make even you become a Teabagger.
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Because it's a bad deal. Benefits are major deciding factors for anyone considering a new job, whether they are in a union or not. Most of these ridiculous numbers you hear about how overpaid the Wi. faculty is are tied to exaggerations of their benefits. Of course giving up the right to negotiate benefits and only being able to negotiate wages would be a huge issue, especially if one of the provisions of the bill is tying potential wage increases to the CPI. The significance is compounded when you take into account the fact that the unions in question were operating in good faith, while Walker was operating under fraudulent motives.
by exagerated do you mean not contributing to health care or retirement? I think thats a pretty sweet deal...
it allows for raises beyond the inflation rate...it doesnt cap it at inflation it just mandates a public vote on raises beyond inflation...
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Al : were the dems operating in good faith when they passed obamacare?
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All I can say that it is about time - Wisconsin's governor is doing what millions want him to do, as are other states.
So do you think Walker and his band of thieves will survive the recall which is already under way?
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So do you think Walker and his band of thieves will survive the recall which is already under way?
Out of curiousity how are they thieves?
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Out of curiousity how are they thieves?
Oh let's see, they voted in the middle of the night using false premises. They violated Wisconsin's open public meeting laws. They locked out any opposition and dissenting opinions. The goal wasn't to say money as they claim....in fact no money has been saved....it was to bust the unions.
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Sounds just like how obamacare was passed.
Now deal w it. Payback is a bitch.
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Sounds just like how obamacare was passed.
Now deal w it. Payback is a bitch.
i'll go for that, no more from you on healthcare ;D
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What Public Sector Employees Don’t Realize or Appreciate
Mar 08 2011
Filed In: Uncategorized, Voices of NYS Taxpayers
by: Brian Sampson
http://blog.unshackleupstate.com/2011/03/what-public-sector-employees-dont-realize-or-appreciate
Thought I’d share this email from an Unshackle Upstate supporter, who offers his real-life perspective on the debate over public vs. private sector employee compensation.
This is from Dave S. We thank him for sharing his story, and invite you to do the same.
“I read Steve Sink’s article in the business section of the Sunday Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, in which you were mentioned, regarding the potential for Albany to become the next Madison, Wisc.
One item of interest in the article, and the reason that I am writing to you now, was the point about how the recent recession has resulted in an imbalance of public vs. private sector pay and benefits. The recession resulted in loss of jobs and salary cuts that few, if any, in the public sector experienced.
I thought about this, and realized that there is another key point that needs to be made clear to all regarding this growing imbalance. As bad and as long as this recession has been, it still is only a “point” on a business cycle. The overlooked, and larger cause of imbalance has been and continues to be a trend – globalization!
Although it is a favorite vote winning topic for many politicians, America continues to lose private sector jobs to more cost competitive countries. The corporations are made out to be the bad guys, but the fact of the matter is that corporations, like any consumer, are obligated to get the most value for their investment dollars. We in the private sector may not like losing our jobs, but if we truly believe in the benefits of free market economies, we ultimately cannot object.
I myself just recently lost my job of 26 years, because the corporation decided to move its development operation to India. This was not a recession related decision, but due to the recession, the timing could not have been worse.
I was fortunate to find a job that I enjoy, however, even a small percentage of the cut in salary and benefits that I experienced would probably have the overly compensated public sector employee protesting in the streets (while continuing to be paid for the job they aren’t doing).
The public sector is immune to globalization.
We can’t outsource our teachers, highway department, police, or other public workers to China or India. They are fortunate, but the fact that they cannot even comprehend how this is straining the tax base, the people who provide their paycheck, is truly galling.
I watched 60 Minutes a few weeks back, as a teacher confronted the governor of New Jersey and his proposed budget cuts, saying “you are not compensating me for my education!” All I could think is, what an idiot. Doesn’t this teacher realize that thousands of engineers with advanced degrees would be told that they would no longer be compensated for any education, as they lost their jobs to those overseas who could do it for less? Perhaps she does, but frankly, doesn’t give a damn!”
________________________ _______
QFT - public employees complaining need to SSSTTTFFFUUU and drop dead. If they are unhappy with their situation - QUIT! Get a real job and compete in the private sector.
99% of these lazy leeches know they would not last a week before begging for their old jobs back where at best they give 4-5 hours a day of "work".
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keanu reaves drove a bus in Speed... he made way more than $160,000 for his efforts.
So the bar is set high for bus drivers, actually.
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Read this an you will understand why I consider 99% of public workers no different than pick pockets, thieves, mini-maddoffs, and criminals, leeches, parasites, and overpaid, underworked slobs in need of pink slips.
________________________ ________________________ ______
Expense-report fraud still smoldering in firefighters union
e-mail print Dec. 12, 2010 |(84) Comments
As individuals tasked with saving lives, firefighters must be brave and honest.
That's the ideal.
But it has not been the practice at the state firefighters union.
For at least seven years, leaders of the Professional Firefighters of Wisconsin filed fraudulent expense reports so they could be reimbursed for donations they made to the union's federal political action committee.
Records indicate that 11 past and current Executive Board members submitted expense vouchers for fictional meetings between 2002 and 2008, collecting more than $17,000 in mileage and per diems as a result.
The money from the phantom meetings covered the amount those board members had given to the International Association of Firefighters PAC, commonly called FirePac.
During that seven-year span, FirePac gave tens of thousands of dollars to Wisconsin politicians, primarily Democratic members of Congress. In 2006, for instance, the federal firefighters PAC contributed at least $5,000 each to U.S. Reps. Tammy Baldwin, Ron Kind, Dave Obey and Steve Kagen, all Democrats. Two Republican representatives received smaller sums.
A special committee set up by the state union investigated the expense voucher controversy and unanimously concluded in June: "The reimbursement practice was illegal and placed the PFFW in jeopardy of financial liability and the cost of legal defense."
After that, the 11 board members agreed to reimburse the union $17,146. The union also ordered an audit of its books and set up a new committee to monitor the organization's spending and adherence to state and federal campaign laws.
But here is what the union didn't do:
The investigatory committee didn't report its findings in June to federal or state election officials or other authorities. Five union officials involved in the expense voucher scheme haven't stepped down from the Executive Board. And the issue was not debated openly at the union's summer convention.
Mike Woodzicka, president of the Wisconsin firefighters union, issued a statement suggesting the issue is resolved. He said the union's board acted quickly after receiving the initial complaint, concluding that "certain practices were inappropriate."
"The remedy has been implemented," Woodzicka said in the statement. "We are confident that the PFFW is in compliance with campaign finance law."
Woodzicka has declined to answer detailed questions about the matter since late October.
Some in the union are not happy that the board appears to be trying to keep the lid on a potential scandal.
Chris Bell, president of the Eau Claire Firefighters Local 487, called for the resignations of the five current board members who collected fraudulent expense reimbursements. The most paid back by any board member was $3,000.
"The actions of these individuals damage the credibility of all firefighters, not just those within Wisconsin," Bell said. "Further stonewalling of this issue will prove to be equally as damaging as the actions themselves."
Bell also urged union leaders to report what happened to the Federal Elections Commission. In fact, sources say, the union just recently began the process of notifying the FEC.
An FEC spokeswoman, Judith Ingram, declined to comment on the specific case. But she pointed to a federal law that prohibits someone from funneling money from another group or individual to a federal candidate or committee without disclosing the true source of the funds at the time of the campaign donation.
An assistant law professor at Marquette University said the reimbursement scheme is a clear violation.
"It is illegal, and people have been prosecuted for it under the federal election laws," said Rick Esenberg, who teaches campaign finance law and runs a politically conservative blog. "There are really two potential criminal problems here - violations of federal election law and fraud on the union. I am really surprised the union was so forgiving."
Bell is not alone in his frustration with the union's top leaders.
"There are issues of it that are unresolved," said Chad Bronkhorst, president of the Green Bay Professional Fire Fighters Local 141. "Even at convention, it never got discussion on the floor. When discussion was brought up, it was ruled out of order."
Apparently, that wasn't the first time that debate on this issue has been squelched.
One former Executive Board member said she first alerted her colleagues to the possible ethical consequences of their actions several years ago.
"I was new to the Executive Board, and I brought up my concerns at that time," said Ann Peggs, a Green Bay Fire Department official who left the board in 2007. "Really, nobody else on the board at that meeting supported my concerns at all. It was explained to me that this is the way it was done."
Then the issue surfaced publicly at last year's state union convention, according to a memo provided April 15 to the union's five caucus chairs by the four-member committee that investigated the matter.
According to that memo, someone made the remark at the 2009 convention that one Executive Board member, Pat Kilbane of Janesville, would get reimbursed by the state union for his FirePac donations. Board members can donate to the FirePac instead of paying the registration fee when attending the national union's annual legislative conference.
The comment at the convention caught the attention of Joe Conway, a Madison firefighter who is the regional vice president for the federal firefighters union.
According to the April 15 memo, Conway began looking into the matter. The memo said Kilbane disclosed that he was directed to submit vouchers for fictional meetings by Rick Gale, the former union president. It also came to light that Kilbane wasn't the only one doing this.
Gale, who didn't return calls, stepped down as union president in 2008 after using a racial slur against President Barack Obama. Gale reimbursed the union $1,900 earlier this year, while Kilbane gave back $354.
Earlier this year, Conway alerted state union board officials what he had turned up, and in March, they set up the four-member investigatory committee made up of Executive Board members who did not submit fraudulent expense vouchers.
Along with identifying the 11 board members who faked expenses starting in 2002 - the records do not go back any further - the special committee found that Woodzicka, the current state union president, quietly stopped the practice when he took over for Gale in 2008.
The investigatory committee recommended the money be repaid but did not call for any resignations.
Mahlon Mitchell, a member of the investigatory committee, said most of the union's local affiliates did not favor forcing the resignations of the board members.
"Our obligation in the union is to follow the law, one, and to follow the will of the majority of our members," Mitchell said.
That prompted Eau Claire firefighter Tony Biasi to file a complaint with the national union against the five sitting Executive Board members who participated in the scheme. Among the five are Woodzicka, who had to reimburse the union $1,100; Troy Haase of Fond du Lac, $1,000; and Brookfield firefighter and Baord Vice President Robert Baird, $3,000.
Just weeks ago, the complaint was tossed by a preliminary review panel set up by the national union. The panel noted that Biasi filed his complaint against just the five current board members, not all 11 individuals caught up in the scheme, saying this suggested a "personal and retaliatory motivation."
Besides, the preliminary panel concluded, "There is no evidence that the charged parties intentionally or knowingly engaged in conduct they knew to be wrong."
Bell, the Eau Claire union boss, said this makes no sense.
How could individuals fill out expense forms for meetings that didn't occur, he asked, and not know this was wrong? In addition, some Executive Board members never participated in the scheme while others did initially and then quit.
The issue is coming to a head, he said, only because the federal union became aware of the fraud by leaders of Wisconsin's firefighters union.
"They only confessed after they were caught," Bell said.
Daniel Bice can be contacted by phone at (414) 224-2135 or by e-mail at
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquarter/111766149.html#
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You do realize that when you privatize these things you pay more.
Whenever you create a for profit company to produce non-profit goods, it never works.
Ask the State of Virginia who currently are paying much more for IT services since they created the public / private partnership with Northrop Grumman... NGC came in claiming how they would be able to save the state money... Well, they've spent more money, been less secure, and had more problems than before when it was only public.
Public entities in government are not allowed to make a profit... as such, things must be done at cost.
A company is in it to make money. They will do whatever it takes to turn a profit and they will turn a profit. That is their job.
If you think it's bad to pay that bus driver his 160K a year... fine, but that bus service will go up a minimum of 2 or 3x if you privatize it.
I've seen toll roads start at reasonable prices, but were controlled by a for profit company who put the money in to make the road, and when the road didn't get the usage they expected, then the tolls went up.
It will not be cheaper in the long run.
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LMFAO you know it could also mean that it gets cheaper too holmes
you see when companies are forced to compete with one another instead of always being there like public entities are they are force to keep costs in check...
goodness gracious some of you guys
you say they will do whatever it takes to make a profit, well one of those things they will certainly do is NOT PAY A BUS DRIVER 165k a year when there are others who will do the job for 35k a year...
LMAO
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LMFAO you know it could also mean that it gets cheaper too holmes
you see when companies are forced to compete with one another instead of always being there like public entities are they are force to keep costs in check...
goodness gracious some of you guys
you say they will do whatever it takes to make a profit, well one of those things they will certainly do is NOT PAY A BUS DRIVER 165k a year when there are others who will do the job for 35k a year...
LMAO
You're right... They will hire 4 other people to work those hours... which isn't the problem, however they WILL turn a profit, where public services are regulated to not allow that.
Again, I have never seen a privatized public entity that doesn't turn a profit or cost more.
You can say they will be cheaper, but where is that? What outsourced from public to private service costs less?
I've presented 2 documented incidents where they cost more... The Northrop Grumman partnership is HUGELY costly and VERY well documented.
You have 2 incidents where it's cheaper? Please... show them to me. I'll be happy to go tit-for-tat on this point.
I am quite certain I can come up with more costly incidents than you can come up with more cost effective and cheaper... Shall we give it a go?
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LOL tu its not just about cost its also about value...private entities provide much more value and can in turn charge more
you think that the products or services from private to public entities is the same? really???
if you think that public entities are always going to be cheaper then why dont we make everything public?
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LOL tu its not just about cost its also about value...private entities provide much more value and can in turn charge more
you think that the products or services from private to public entities is the same? really???
if you think that public entities are always going to be cheaper then why dont we make everything public?
In the instances that I'm quoting the services have not been improved and are more costly because they are turning a profit.
I'm talking about real world incidents. No guessing... This is how it is.
So do you think a bus route has an ability to be improved?
Come on man... Don't drink the corporate Kool-Aid man.
I am not against private entities but I have seen that sometimes the government has actually done better.
Especially when it comes to providing some value by being legislatively unable to turn a profit.
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In the instances that I'm quoting the services have not been improved and are more costly because they are turning a profit.
I'm talking about real world incidents. No guessing... This is how it is.
So do you think a bus route has an ability to be improved?
Come on man... Don't drink the corporate Kool-Aid man.
I am not against private entities but I have seen that sometimes the government has actually done better.
Especially when it comes to providing some value by being legislatively unable to turn a profit.
I think the quality of service has the ability to be improved...yes
answer the question, if every public entity is cheaper than private entity then why not make them all public?
im not drinking the kool aid bro ham just know reality...you look at specific instances and assume its all the same...
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what companies are you asserting that were public and went private...the ngc thing was a partnership was it not?
was it simply the fact that it was a private/public partnership that made it more expensive or where there problems that occured such as is the case in 99% of partnerships?
what was the price before hand and the pricing now?
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I think the quality of service has the ability to be improved...yes
answer the question, if every public entity is cheaper than private entity then why not make them all public?
im not drinking the kool aid bro ham just know reality...you look at specific instances and assume its all the same...
I'm gonna have to agree with Tu here, lol. Most people would probably be shocked to their core if they knew how many government contractors flew into DC every week. I know I was and it's mind blowing. They fly in on the taxpayer dime every Monday and fly out every Friday. There's lots of reasons, but basically it would be cheaper to make them public.
I don't think we should make all companies public, of course, but areas where the government is the exclusive provider should generally remain handled by the government and not contracted out. If there are particular areas where a specialized knowledge base is needed for a period of time, etc., then turn to contractors. But as a day to day thing, the costs are exhorbitant.
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I'm gonna have to agree with Tu here, lol. Most people would probably be shocked to their core if they knew how many government contractors flew into DC every week. I know I was and it's mind blowing. They fly in on the taxpayer dime every Monday and fly out every Friday. There's lots of reasons, but basically it would be cheaper to make them public.
I don't think we should make all companies public, of course, but areas where the government is the exclusive provider should generally remain handled by the government and not contracted out. If there are particular areas where a specialized knowledge base is needed for a period of time, etc., then turn to contractors. But as a day to day thing, the costs are exhorbitant.
Oh i understand that, boeing etc...just ridiculous but tu's point is that a private company is going to cost more simply b/c they are profit driven...thats retarded to me
now as far as waste goes that to me is a totally different story...you can do things both private and public to cut down on waste.
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Oh let's see, they voted in the middle of the night using false premises. They violated Wisconsin's open public meeting laws. They locked out any opposition and dissenting opinions. The goal wasn't to say money as they claim....in fact no money has been saved....it was to bust the unions.
Where are you getting your information? You are seriously misinformed.
Perhaps you are thinking of Doyle and his cronies doing things "in the middle of the night and under false premises".
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Why work towards that PhD or MD when you can drive a bus on the same predetermined route every day and be rewarded with $160,000 of taxpayer money?
Because, believe it or not, some people actually enter into a profession for higher purposes than to earn money. Driving a bus may not be a personally rewarding as saving someone's life. Don't make it all about money....there is more to life than money. Truth is no matter how much of it you make, you just spend it anyway. Money doesn't equal happiness, although a lot of folks think it does and so end up disappointed whether they have it or not.
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Unreal. Typical union crap.
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Read this an you will understand why I consider 99% of public workers no different than pick pockets, thieves, mini-maddoffs, and criminals, leeches, parasites, and overpaid, underworked slobs in need of pink slips.
________________________ ________________________ ______
Expense-report fraud still smoldering in firefighters union
e-mail print Dec. 12, 2010 |(84) Comments
As individuals tasked with saving lives, firefighters must be brave and honest.
That's the ideal.
But it has not been the practice at the state firefighters union.
For at least seven years, leaders of the Professional Firefighters of Wisconsin filed fraudulent expense reports so they could be reimbursed for donations they made to the union's federal political action committee.
Records indicate that 11 past and current Executive Board members submitted expense vouchers for fictional meetings between 2002 and 2008, collecting more than $17,000 in mileage and per diems as a result.
The money from the phantom meetings covered the amount those board members had given to the International Association of Firefighters PAC, commonly called FirePac.
During that seven-year span, FirePac gave tens of thousands of dollars to Wisconsin politicians, primarily Democratic members of Congress. In 2006, for instance, the federal firefighters PAC contributed at least $5,000 each to U.S. Reps. Tammy Baldwin, Ron Kind, Dave Obey and Steve Kagen, all Democrats. Two Republican representatives received smaller sums.
A special committee set up by the state union investigated the expense voucher controversy and unanimously concluded in June: "The reimbursement practice was illegal and placed the PFFW in jeopardy of financial liability and the cost of legal defense."
After that, the 11 board members agreed to reimburse the union $17,146. The union also ordered an audit of its books and set up a new committee to monitor the organization's spending and adherence to state and federal campaign laws.
But here is what the union didn't do:
The investigatory committee didn't report its findings in June to federal or state election officials or other authorities. Five union officials involved in the expense voucher scheme haven't stepped down from the Executive Board. And the issue was not debated openly at the union's summer convention.
Mike Woodzicka, president of the Wisconsin firefighters union, issued a statement suggesting the issue is resolved. He said the union's board acted quickly after receiving the initial complaint, concluding that "certain practices were inappropriate."
"The remedy has been implemented," Woodzicka said in the statement. "We are confident that the PFFW is in compliance with campaign finance law."
Woodzicka has declined to answer detailed questions about the matter since late October.
Some in the union are not happy that the board appears to be trying to keep the lid on a potential scandal.
Chris Bell, president of the Eau Claire Firefighters Local 487, called for the resignations of the five current board members who collected fraudulent expense reimbursements. The most paid back by any board member was $3,000.
"The actions of these individuals damage the credibility of all firefighters, not just those within Wisconsin," Bell said. "Further stonewalling of this issue will prove to be equally as damaging as the actions themselves."
Bell also urged union leaders to report what happened to the Federal Elections Commission. In fact, sources say, the union just recently began the process of notifying the FEC.
An FEC spokeswoman, Judith Ingram, declined to comment on the specific case. But she pointed to a federal law that prohibits someone from funneling money from another group or individual to a federal candidate or committee without disclosing the true source of the funds at the time of the campaign donation.
An assistant law professor at Marquette University said the reimbursement scheme is a clear violation.
"It is illegal, and people have been prosecuted for it under the federal election laws," said Rick Esenberg, who teaches campaign finance law and runs a politically conservative blog. "There are really two potential criminal problems here - violations of federal election law and fraud on the union. I am really surprised the union was so forgiving."
Bell is not alone in his frustration with the union's top leaders.
"There are issues of it that are unresolved," said Chad Bronkhorst, president of the Green Bay Professional Fire Fighters Local 141. "Even at convention, it never got discussion on the floor. When discussion was brought up, it was ruled out of order."
Apparently, that wasn't the first time that debate on this issue has been squelched.
One former Executive Board member said she first alerted her colleagues to the possible ethical consequences of their actions several years ago.
"I was new to the Executive Board, and I brought up my concerns at that time," said Ann Peggs, a Green Bay Fire Department official who left the board in 2007. "Really, nobody else on the board at that meeting supported my concerns at all. It was explained to me that this is the way it was done."
Then the issue surfaced publicly at last year's state union convention, according to a memo provided April 15 to the union's five caucus chairs by the four-member committee that investigated the matter.
According to that memo, someone made the remark at the 2009 convention that one Executive Board member, Pat Kilbane of Janesville, would get reimbursed by the state union for his FirePac donations. Board members can donate to the FirePac instead of paying the registration fee when attending the national union's annual legislative conference.
The comment at the convention caught the attention of Joe Conway, a Madison firefighter who is the regional vice president for the federal firefighters union.
According to the April 15 memo, Conway began looking into the matter. The memo said Kilbane disclosed that he was directed to submit vouchers for fictional meetings by Rick Gale, the former union president. It also came to light that Kilbane wasn't the only one doing this.
Gale, who didn't return calls, stepped down as union president in 2008 after using a racial slur against President Barack Obama. Gale reimbursed the union $1,900 earlier this year, while Kilbane gave back $354.
Earlier this year, Conway alerted state union board officials what he had turned up, and in March, they set up the four-member investigatory committee made up of Executive Board members who did not submit fraudulent expense vouchers.
Along with identifying the 11 board members who faked expenses starting in 2002 - the records do not go back any further - the special committee found that Woodzicka, the current state union president, quietly stopped the practice when he took over for Gale in 2008.
The investigatory committee recommended the money be repaid but did not call for any resignations.
Mahlon Mitchell, a member of the investigatory committee, said most of the union's local affiliates did not favor forcing the resignations of the board members.
"Our obligation in the union is to follow the law, one, and to follow the will of the majority of our members," Mitchell said.
That prompted Eau Claire firefighter Tony Biasi to file a complaint with the national union against the five sitting Executive Board members who participated in the scheme. Among the five are Woodzicka, who had to reimburse the union $1,100; Troy Haase of Fond du Lac, $1,000; and Brookfield firefighter and Baord Vice President Robert Baird, $3,000.
Just weeks ago, the complaint was tossed by a preliminary review panel set up by the national union. The panel noted that Biasi filed his complaint against just the five current board members, not all 11 individuals caught up in the scheme, saying this suggested a "personal and retaliatory motivation."
Besides, the preliminary panel concluded, "There is no evidence that the charged parties intentionally or knowingly engaged in conduct they knew to be wrong."
Bell, the Eau Claire union boss, said this makes no sense.
How could individuals fill out expense forms for meetings that didn't occur, he asked, and not know this was wrong? In addition, some Executive Board members never participated in the scheme while others did initially and then quit.
The issue is coming to a head, he said, only because the federal union became aware of the fraud by leaders of Wisconsin's firefighters union.
"They only confessed after they were caught," Bell said.
Daniel Bice can be contacted by phone at (414) 224-2135 or by e-mail at
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquarter/111766149.html#
Unfortunately, there is dishonesty anywhere you look. You'll find it in private business, the public sector and yes, even in some union activities. Finger pointing doesn't change the fact that some folks are just dishonest and some are not. No matter where they are, it is good when they get caught. Now if we could just punish those, like the CEO's and bankers who literally robbed from all off us, we might get somewhere.
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Fraud in a private company is not the same by a crooked secretaery bookkeeper or exec is not the same as fraud in the public sector.
These bums stole tax dollars and used it to advance union clout to gain more goodies from the schmuck taxpayer.
Soory - not an ounce of respect or sympathy for these leeches.
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Oh i understand that, boeing etc...just ridiculous but tu's point is that a private company is going to cost more simply b/c they are profit driven...thats retarded to me
now as far as waste goes that to me is a totally different story...you can do things both private and public to cut down on waste.
Waste does need to be cut down... That's the biggest issue in government.
However, I stand by my statement... The only time a private company costs less is when they compete in an open market with other private companies... These government contracts are not open market.
Let me explain in a response to your previous post.
what companies are you asserting that were public and went private...the ngc thing was a partnership was it not?
was it simply the fact that it was a private/public partnership that made it more expensive or where there problems that occured such as is the case in 99% of partnerships?
what was the price before hand and the pricing now?
The NGC was a partnership, however, let's look at what this partnership entailed.
Firstly, The partnership entailed building 2 new datacenters in Virginia.
1 near the capital and one in the southwest portion of the state as a hot disaster site.
These were things that we were told that government couldn't provide... Buildings. The state couldn't provide BUILDINGS.
Next, the datacenters were designed to be replicated data... Which is all good in theory, but when data is fucked up in one and gets replicated to the remoted facility, well, that's just replicated bad data.
The state had a sunguard contract previously and it worked well... Only service which were deamed priority 1 for the state were on the contract and it worked... Every year they did a test to prove their services were recoverable and everything was good to go.
So while there was some service enhancement, the cost did not equate to the benefit really... Not to mention they have never had a successful Disaster test since NGC took over.
Next, let's look at where the state really spends it's money... We're assuming employees right?
Well, you had an option to stay with the state and it's benefit program or move to northrop grumman... Sounds like if you moved you'd save a lot of money right?
Well, let's see... Most people who were with the agency were over 20 years with the state... Do you think those people will leave? Nope.
The ones who did leave where already ready retirement age or had 30 years anyway... So, they did go to NGC but still collected their pensions which were guaranteed... People like myself of course who had been there about 5 years, we went, because NGC gave us a 10 percent pay hike.
Not a bad deal as an individual... as a tax payer, not so well.
People who were not of retirement age simply went to other state agencies that still have internal technology staff.
So, NGC has written into the contract that if they meet stipulations X and Y, then they get paid... Sounds normal... Except there are exceptions written in... If the state asks for someone to do something that is out of scope perse, then they must pay X percent over cost for that service.
The state is also required to pay for any additional service requested that were not originally planned, so if you say you need a DS3 pipe, but it turns out you need an OC192, you don't just pay for the OC192, you pay more for someone to manage that OC192 now.
It's all designed to let NGC make money on every single thing they can find.
Companies are designed to make money and turn a profit... if you have a non profit entity and they provide a service, especially something like IT services, which are already commodious, then how do you think a company can compete?
The truth is that they can not and to get business they paint a false picture of what is already being done.
If you do any research into Northrop Grumman and the State of Virginia, all you will see is a huge cost to the tax payers... HUGE.
Way more than the previous IT agency cost them.
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contracts between private companies and govt are not the same as govt run agencies or programs.
I agree with you about the contracting companies etc...
I think we just misunderstood one another.