Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Benny B on July 08, 2011, 05:49:55 AM
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The message? Wealthy people, we love you! Keep pouring in the money to keep us in office and we will take care of you! The working poor and middle class...the overwhelming majority of the American people? Drop dead!
Republican Senator Orrin Hatch argued that top income earners pay too much in taxes while the bottom 51% of Americans don't pay enough. Michael Shure explains.
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Nice jobs number today!
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Nice jobs number today!
red herring the argument
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The message? Wealthy people, we love you! Keep pouring in the money to keep us in office and we will take care of you! The working poor and middle class...the overwhelming majority of the American people? Drop dead!
Republican Senator Orrin Hatch argued that top income earners pay too much in taxes while the bottom 51% of Americans don't pay enough. Michael Shure explains.
Well, that's going to cost the GOP a whole lot of votes since they'll definitely use his statement in future campaign ads. What kind of moron is he??? Poor people do pay taxes and if they didn't pay enough taxes then its because they are....get this....poor..... ::)
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They already vote demo.
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They already vote demo.
so are you saying republicans target low income people via tax because of party lines and not because of sound economic policy?
:D
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so are you saying republicans target low income people via tax because of party lines and not because of sound economic policy?
:D
No. Everyone should pay taxes.
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No. Everyone should pay taxes.
children?
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children?
Even the dead should pay taxes I say.
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Even the dead should pay taxes I say.
damn those freeloaders sucking our resources without giving a dime back
:D
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They already vote demo.
Ever been to a red state?
Idiot.
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They already vote demo.
When you have Republicans like Hatch and Bachman speaking this way, do you seriously think that the poor are going to vote Republican???.... ::)
The 51% number is bullshit but the fact is that its simply disrespectful to everyone out there who is unemployed, lost their job for no reason, looking for work, and is just trying to get by. I had a high paying job at Alltel and I got laid off and while I run a decent business, I'm certainly not making as much as I did in 2007 and I have to budget my money and clip coupons.
Just sad how some people think. The poor can't dig deeper when they've practically tunnelled to the center of the earth ::)
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Haha a "red" state.
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When you have Republicans like Hatch and Bachman speaking this way, do you seriously think that the poor are going to vote Republican???.... ::)
The 51% number is bullshit but the fact is that its simply disrespectful to everyone out there who is unemployed, lost their job for no reason, looking for work, and is just trying to get by. I had a high paying job at Alltel and I got laid off and while I run a decent business, I'm certainly not making as much as I did in 2007 and I have to budget my money and clip coupons.
Just sad how some people think
Until Obama is gone and they stop the commie shit, things will only get worse.
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Until Obama is gone and they stop the commie shit, things will only get worse.
red herring the argument
This is starting to get fun.
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Until Obama is gone and they stop the commie shit, things will only get worse.
Sure, lets elect Bachmann and ban all pornography and ignore the 1st Amendment freedom of speech.... ::)
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Sure, lets elect Bachmann and ban all pornography and ignore the 1st Amendment freedom of speech.... ::)
REPEAT AFTER ME -
UNTIL OBAMA ADMN IS OUSTED FROM OFFICE THINGS WILL ONLY GET WORSE
I talk to dozens of business people daily, the job creators, and they are on strike and in turtle mode until obama is ousted from office. He is like a black plague over the nation, no pun intended.
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We don't have a taxing problem. We have a spending problem.
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red herring the argument
This is starting to get fun.
Do you believe the bottom fifty percent of Americans are paying their fare share of taxes?
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I talk to dozens of business people daily, the job creators, and they are on strike and in turtle mode until obama is ousted from office.
Only an idiot like you would think that's a true, representative sample of what's going on across the U.S.
The majority of small-business owners are doing what they can to sustain and grow their businesses and one of the best things to come out of the recession is that, because it's been harder to get credit, more and more small businesses are using CASH to meet their expenses. And if they don't have the cash, then they do without, thereby not increasing their debt burden, something they'll greatly benefit from over time.
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Why don't you Americans put all poor people in prison. Half of them are allready anyway...
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Is this going to turn into one of these " Ronnie Obama's front tax spread is superior to Dorian Blachmann's" threads?
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Do you believe the bottom fifty percent of Americans are paying their fare share of taxes?
Yes. The enlarging of the gap between the rich and poor in this country is appalling. We need to return the tax rate for the wealthy back to 1960s era tax rate.
I think politicians who disagree with this are only seeking campaign contributions to get reelected. That is why we need a huge reform on campaign finance. It undermines the ideal of democracy. I think non-politicians who disagree with this are A) Rich themselves or B) Hope to become Rich one day (but let's be honest, most likely won't).
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Yes. The enlarging of the gap between the rich and poor in this country is appalling. We need to return the tax rate for the wealthy back to 1960s era tax rate.
I think politicians who disagree with this are only seeking campaign contributions to get reelected. That is why we need a huge reform on campaign finance. It undermines the ideal of democracy. I think non-politicians who disagree with this are A) Rich themselves or B) Hope to become Rich one day (but let's be honest, most likely won't).
WTF is wrong with you? They dont pay anything and soak up most of the benes.
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WTF is wrong with you? They dont pay anything and soak up most of the benes.
the only way your post is correct is if you are talking about the wealthy in this country.
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Do you believe the bottom fifty percent of Americans are paying their fare share of taxes?
The poor are not responsible for the national debt. They didn't file Chapter 11 bankruptcies like Donald Trump did, They didn't develop billion dollar Ponzi schemes like Madoff, they didn't buy million dollar houses that they foreclosed on purposely, they didn't buy hedge funds, worthless stocks and bonds, etc.
The poor pay taxes and they actually end up paying more with the "State Lotteries" which are nothing more than a scheme specifically designed to get money from the poor and desperate. But ultimately, the national debt should not on their shoulders because they had nothing to do with it.
The wealthy control the United States, not the poor, so they need to dig deeper because they haven't. They are lucky Ronald Reagan isn't in office because taxes then were much higher for the wealthy than it is now
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WTF is wrong with you? They dont pay anything and soak up most of the benes.
Assuming all standard deductions, how much federal income tax does a family of 8 (2 adults, 6 children) pay when they have an income of $120,000/year?
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Unless you are a child or are hit with a serious illness or injury, you are poor by choice if you live in the US. Also, state lotteries are not taxes, nor can they be compared to them. Lottos, casinos, etc...are simply bad decisions made by poor people who choose to remain poor. A decision to purchase lottery tickets is not an act of desperation............. .it is an act of stupidity. Ignore = poverty.
I'm not defending the rich by any means, but they still do pay the large bulk of overall taxes. Corporate taxes in the US are the highest in the world as it stands......not very competitive in an increasingly globalized world. Yes, Wall Street was responsible for many of our economic woes, but not solely so. Government on all levels, private business decisions, fraud, and bad choices by the citizenry at large are also at fault. As far as the mortgage crisis goes, who forced someone to purchase a $500k home when they make $30k a year?
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Yes. The enlarging of the gap between the rich and poor in this country is appalling. We need to return the tax rate for the wealthy back to 1960s era tax rate.
I think politicians who disagree with this are only seeking campaign contributions to get reelected. That is why we need a huge reform on campaign finance. It undermines the ideal of democracy. I think non-politicians who disagree with this are A) Rich themselves or B) Hope to become Rich one day (but let's be honest, most likely won't).
I'm having trouble finding the numbers, what was the tax rate on the wealthy in the 60's?
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Unless you are a child or are hit with a serious illness or injury, you are poor by choice if you live in the US. Also, state lotteries are not taxes, nor can they be compared to them. Lottos, casinos, etc...are simply bad decisions made by poor people who choose to remain poor. A decision to purchase lottery tickets is not an act of desperation............. .it is an act of stupidity. Ignore = poverty.
I'm not defending the rich by any means, but they still do pay the large bulk of overall taxes. Corporate taxes in the US are the highest in the world as it stands......not very competitive in an increasingly globalized world. Yes, Wall Street was responsible for many of our economic woes, but not solely so. Government on all levels, private business decisions, fraud, and bad choices by the citizenry at large are also at fault. As far as the mortgage crisis goes, who forced someone to purchase a $500k home when they make $30k a year?
Wow. Where to begin. Let's see here. First of all, one's intelligence is strongly determined by age 5. Depends on nutrition, time spent being read to, genetics, etc etc. These are not the child's choices. The school that a child goes to is not a choice. It depends on location and financial status of parents, etc. Then what skills and abilities one learns at school is not up to the child. The ability to understand Math for example, is not by choice. It is by the "natural lottery". Some naturally are able to understand complex equations while others are able to write hilarious jokes, etc etc. These are not by choice, just like you did not choose what race you are. Society tends to reward people who have recieved certain skills and abilities in the natural lottery while ignoring or punishing others. If we shouldn't discriminate on race because of not having a choice, then why discriminate on who gets lucky in the natural lottery in terms of what skills and abilities they have. Also, a person does not choose job availability in the area they live in. For example, there are some people who went to UNC law school who are now unemployed. They did not choose to be unemployed, there simply aren't jobs for them to have, despite being blessed by the natural lottery, having rich parents, getting a good degree, etc. The sentence of yours in bold is wrong on so many levels.
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Unless you are a child or are hit with a serious illness or injury, you are poor by choice if you live in the US. Also, state lotteries are not taxes, nor can they be compared to them. Lottos, casinos, etc...are simply bad decisions made by poor people who choose to remain poor. A decision to purchase lottery tickets is not an act of desperation............. .it is an act of stupidity. Ignore = poverty.
I'm not defending the rich by any means, but they still do pay the large bulk of overall taxes. Corporate taxes in the US are the highest in the world as it stands......not very competitive in an increasingly globalized world. Yes, Wall Street was responsible for many of our economic woes, but not solely so. Government on all levels, private business decisions, fraud, and bad choices by the citizenry at large are also at fault. As far as the mortgage crisis goes, who forced someone to purchase a $500k home when they make $30k a year?
I didn't read the rest of your post the first time because I was struck by the first sentence. The part in bold is correct if you talk about overall numbers, but is wrong when talking about in proportion to their income. That is the issue here, taxes in proportion to income.
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Unless you are a child or are hit with a serious illness or injury, you are poor by choice if you live in the US. Also, state lotteries are not taxes, nor can they be compared to them. Lottos, casinos, etc...are simply bad decisions made by poor people who choose to remain poor. A decision to purchase lottery tickets is not an act of desperation............. .it is an act of stupidity. Ignore = poverty.
I'm not defending the rich by any means, but they still do pay the large bulk of overall taxes. Corporate taxes in the US are the highest in the world as it stands......not very competitive in an increasingly globalized world. Yes, Wall Street was responsible for many of our economic woes, but not solely so. Government on all levels, private business decisions, fraud, and bad choices by the citizenry at large are also at fault. As far as the mortgage crisis goes, who forced someone to purchase a $500k home when they make $30k a year?
Yes, its an act of stupidity but its also one that that state governments sponsors, benefits, and advertises on TV. Its exploitation of the poor because the vast majority of people who buy a lottery ticket. The rich don't buy lottery tickets. The lottery is a sham and taking money from the poor, uneducated, and desperate is wrong.
And who benefits from a person making 30k to buy a 500k houses???? Its not the person buying the house or even the real estate agent who sold him the house but the wealthy real estate investors and banks that collect the interest fees from the person who tries in vain to pay for it but still ends up getting foreclosed on and thrown out of the house where they can shove it off to the next sucker.... ::)
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Assuming all standard deductions, how much federal income tax does a family of 8 (2 adults, 6 children) pay when they have an income of $120,000/year?
Legit question - what is the AMT threshold currently at?
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Politics/religion/sex
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You Americans pay so little taxes, you should count yourselves lucky...unless you lose your jobs of course..
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Sure, lets elect Bachmann and ban all pornography and ignore the 1st Amendment freedom of speech.... ::)
You mean like when liberals have the agenda to shut down conservative talk radio and cable? Think before you post up such bullshit.
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If you live in America and are poor, it a life choice.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=388223.msg5447974#msg5447974
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You mean like when liberals have the agenda to shut down conservative talk radio and cable? Think before you post up such bullshit.
9.2% UE, 16% real UE, 20% UE with part time people looking for full time, and these 95ers, gays, jews, guilt ridden white commies, govt hacks, etc trash Bachmann?
LMFAO
Obamanomics = communism and collapse
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No representation without taxation.
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I don’t really like President Obama’s policies but the economy is not all his fault. It is the American people not buying American made things. Look around your house and see how much stuff is made in a different country.
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You mean like when liberals have the agenda to shut down conservative talk radio and cable? Think before you post up such bullshit.
Its not bullshit Joe. She signed a pledge to ban all pornography.
BTW, here's the truth on that 51%.... ::)
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jul/08/john-cornyn/john-cornyn-says-51-percent-american-households-pa/
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Its not bullshit Joe. She signed a pledge to ban all pornography.
you lie!
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Fuck Hatch and fuck taxes! :)
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If you live in America and are poor, it a life choice.
Right.
::)
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something like 50% of the country doesnt pay taxes...in fact many get money back
guess everybody here is cool with that?
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Poor people pay out through the criminal justice system and the lottery. Not to mention keep places like Walmart unbelievably profitable.
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something like 50% of the country doesnt pay taxes...in fact many get money back
guess everybody here is cool with that?
50% of this nation have ZERO income tax liability. They pay "Taxes" and then get most if not all of it back with the refund or the EITC. Many get more back than they paid in through direct welfare, assistance, deductions, food stamps and on and on. 64% of Americans are actually getting some sort of transfer payments from the government.
In affect, the poor don't pay any income taxes. Most of the tax burden falls on the top 15%
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50% of this nation have ZERO income tax liability. They pay "Taxes" and then get most if not all of it back with the refund or the EITC. Many get more back than they paid in through direct welfare, assistance, deductions, food stamps and on and on. 64% of Americans are actually getting some sort of transfer payments from the government.
In affect, the poor don't pay any income taxes. Most of the tax burden falls on the top 15%
??? :-\
you're joking right?
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??? :-\
you're joking right?
Which part of the facts that I posted are "wrong"?
-Do the top brackets not shoulder the vast majority of the income tax burden?
-Does 50% of the nation not have zero income tax liability?
-Do 64% of the nation not receive some sort of govt. assistance?
-Is there not an EITC?
The above 4 points aren't jokes although I wish they were.
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Which part of the facts that I posted are "wrong"?
-Do the top brackets not shoulder the vast majority of the income tax burden?
-Does 50% of the nation not have zero income tax liability?
-Do 64% of the nation not receive some sort of govt. assistance?
-Is there not an EITC?
The above 4 points aren't jokes although I wish they were.
The top brackets do not shoulder the vast majority of the tax burden in relation to their income. Those that receive gov assistance do not receive more than they pay in. More than half of the people on welfare work 2 or more jobs. Your conclusion that the rich are doing enough and the poor have it easy is not valid.
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I don't like the fact that half of us pay taxes on our Form 1040, and many of the other half receive refundable credits, such as the Earned Income Credit, money back that was never paid in to start with, using the same Form 1040.
The 1040 should be used to pay taxes, not used as a welfare form.
In other words, don't ask us to pay taxes because you don't have enough money, and then you start giving away money to others even faster than we can pay it in......
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Would any of the rich people who do pay a lot in taxes like to trade places with the poor who don't? And not everyone who is poor deserves to be poor like not everyone who is rich deserves to be rich. A lot of the time your station in life is determined at birth.
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children?
Our children will be paying out the ass with this shitheads spending.
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Would any of the rich people who do pay a lot in taxes like to trade places with the poor who don't?
Not a valid argument. It doesn't address fairness.
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Would any of the rich people who do pay a lot in taxes like to trade places with the poor who don't? And not everyone who is poor deserves to be poor like not everyone who is rich deserves to be rich. A lot of the time your station in life is determined at birth.
I agree. I don't think that point has been made explicitly enough in this thread. I think the claim that "I have full rights to my labor because I am fully responsible for that labor" is simply wrong. I'm sorry but the wealthy undertook their position under the knowledge that part of what they make will be given back to those who did not luck out in the natural lottery. Their skills and abilities are not self-caused. They did not have any more "choice" over having the cognitive ability to work on wall street than they did over their race. The only inequality in a society should be because of individual choice and preference.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=388223.msg5447974#msg5447974
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Not a valid argument. It doesn't address fairness.
Fair will never happen...someone will always get the crappy end of the situation. And since the poor outnumber the rich 100 to 1 they have decided keep the poorer satisfied.
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Their skills and abilities are not self-caused. They did not have any more "choice" over having the cognitive ability to work on wall street than they did over their race.
Nonsense. You can't possibly defend this.
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I agree. I don't think that point has been made explicitly enough in this thread. I think the claim that "I have full rights to my labor because I am fully responsible for that labor" is simply wrong. I'm sorry but the wealthy undertook their position under the knowledge that part of what they make will be given back to those who did not luck out in the natural lottery. Their skills and abilities are not self-caused. They did not have any more "choice" over having the cognitive ability to work on wall street than they did over their race. The only inequality in a society should be because of individual choice and preference.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=388223.msg5447974#msg5447974
There was a time when you could work hard and improve your life and your families life. Those days are gone. Benefits are going away, retirement packages are going away, american jobs are going away. Even a college degree doesn't guarantee you will have a decent job.
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The top brackets do not shoulder the vast majority of the tax burden in relation to their income. Those that receive gov assistance do not receive more than they pay in. More than half of the people on welfare work 2 or more jobs. Your conclusion that the rich are doing enough and the poor have it easy is not valid.
how much do the top 1% of income earners make in the US magoo?
I dont think anybody is saying the poor have it easy but they do not pull their own weight.
You want to talk about fairness thats fine but do you really feel its fair to have someone else pay for others?
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Nonsense. You can't possibly defend this.
yes I can. Send me a PM if you want some reading material. Some people lucked out in the natural lottery and some did not. There is a lot in life that is not up to "choice". Take the Wilt Chamberlain example in Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia. Nozick claims that since people are willing to pay to see Wilt play, then Wilt has a full right to that money, and to tax him for that money is nothing short of taking away his labor, and when you take away his labor that is slavery. This is the common libertarian thought. But Wilt became a basketball player under the knowledge of an already set up distributive scheme. He knew well ahead of time that his money would be taken away via tax. Also, Wilt only happened to luck out in the natural lottery to be a gifted basketball player. Whatever was in his brain and/or body that made him work hard and allowed him to improve was not up to him. Plus, Wilt happened to luck out by living in a time and place in history that values basketball skills. This is a typical reply to the typical libertarian "I deserve all the fruits of my labor" argument.
That was an example of receiving full benefits of a skill. If you want to see how brain ability is not really up to oneself, see my previous post when I take about how intelligence is largely determined by age 5.
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yes I can. Send me a PM if you want some reading material. Some people lucked out in the natural lottery and some did not. There is a lot in life that is not up to "choice". Take the Wilt Chamberlain example in Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia. Nozick claims that since people are willing to pay to see Wilt play, then Wilt has a full right to that money, and to tax him for that money is nothing short of taking away his labor, and when you take away his labor that is slavery. This is the common libertarian thought. But Wilt became a basketball player under the knowledge of an already set up distributive scheme. He knew well ahead of time that his money would be taken away via tax. Also, Wilt only happened to luck out in the natural lottery to be a gifted basketball player. Whatever was in his brain and/or body that made him work hard and allowed him to improve was not up to him. Plus, Wilt happened to luck out by living in a time and place in history that values basketball skills. This is a typical reply to the typical libertarian "I deserve all the fruits of my labor" argument.
That was an example of receiving full benefits of a skill. If you want to see how brain ability is not really up to oneself, see my previous post when I take about how intelligence is largely determined by age 5.
LOL so youre theory is that those who dont have skills that are marketable or natural ability have a right to have those that do care for them?
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50% of this nation have ZERO income tax liability. They pay "Taxes" and then get most if not all of it back with the refund or the EITC. Many get more back than they paid in through direct welfare, assistance, deductions, food stamps and on and on. 64% of Americans are actually getting some sort of transfer payments from the government.
In affect, the poor don't pay any income taxes. Most of the tax burden falls on the top 15%
The poor also have no savings/401k ect. No assets to leave to their children. Which means every single penny they make, goes directly back into the system almost instantly.
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mr. magoo, what have you done with your life to try to get ahead?
what do you do for a living?
do you have any dependents?
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The poor also have no savings/401k ect. No assets to leave to their children. Which means every single penny they make, goes directly back into the system almost instantly.
LMAO it all gets back into the system no matter what...
what do you think banks do with the money that is deposited in them?
what do you think companies do with money generated from IPO's or other issuances?
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Nonsense. You can't possibly defend this.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
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LOL so youre theory is that those who dont have skills that are marketable or natural ability have a right to have those that do care for them?
It's not a "right". Don't get into the whole issue of "rights", it's usually a misguided, overly emotional conversation that automatically becomes locked.
I'm saying that the only inequality that we should find morally permissible is inequality resulting from individual choice and preference. One ideal example would be having all jobs pay the same amount of money per hour but workers could choose how many hours to work. This would result in inequality due to individual preference and choice and the end distribution would be just and fair. Keep in mind this is in theory, I'm not saying we should start tomorrow, it would not work. If you want literature behind this, send me a PM.
The Nozick example of Wilt keeping the fruit of his labor is only applicable as a historical theory that derives from an original just distribution (such as an equal distribution). Most libertarians who cite Nozick ignore this point. If the original distribution is not a just (such as an equal distribution) and the distribution in America right now is not, then taxation should be used for distributive justice. Nozick, the father of libertarians, admits this.
Maybe this makes sense.
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It's not a "right". Don't get into the whole issue of "rights", it's usually a misguided, overly emotional conversation that automatically becomes locked.
I'm saying that the only inequality that we should find morally permissible is inequality resulting from individual choice and preference. One ideal example would be having all jobs pay the same amount of money per hour but workers could choose how many hours to work. This would result in inequality due to individual preference and choice and the end distribution would be just and fair. Keep in mind this is in theory, I'm not saying we should start tomorrow, it would not work. If you want literature behind this, send me a PM.
The Nozick example of Wilt keeping the fruit of his labor is only applicable as a historical theory that derives from an original just distribution (such as an equal distribution). Most libertarians who cite Nozick ignore this point. If the original distribution is not a just (such as an equal distribution) and the distribution in America right now is not, then taxation should be used for distributive justice. Nozick, the father of libertarians, admits this.
Maybe this makes sense.
LMFAO so quality of work and type of work wouldnt matter in this utopia of yours?
hahahah dude I knew you were out there but I didnt know how far out you were LMFAO
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[ Invalid YouTube link ]
Complete bullshit. We're all programmed to choose a certain way? I steal because I've always been a thief, and I have no choice but to continue stealing in the future. I am a fucking robot.
Complete bullshit.
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Complete bullshit. We're all programmed to choose a certain way? I steal because I've always been a thief, and I have no choice but to continue stealing in the future. I am a fucking robot.
Complete bullshit.
those who have a gene in their brain called monoamine oxidase A are 600 times more likely to commit a violent act.
Still think committing violent acts is purely a free will activity?
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Still think committing violent acts is purely a free will activity?
Yep.
And people who drink too much have a gene that forces their mouth to a bottle, right?
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LMFAO so quality of work and type of work wouldnt matter in this utopia of yours?
hahahah dude I knew you were out there but I didnt know how far out you were LMFAO
the quality of work would be best suited to skill and where one's preferences directed them. For example, the lower class children whose parents did not read to them much (thereby lowering their IQ in relation to other children and hurting their chances at getting good paying jobs) would not be punished in society due to an action beyond their control. Just like the higher class children whose parents could afford to have people read to their child should not be rewarded in society due to an action beyond their control.
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the quality of work would be best suited to skill and where one's preferences directed them. For example, the lower class children whose parents did not read to them much (thereby lowering their IQ in relation to other children and hurting their chances at getting good paying jobs) would not be punished in society due to an action beyond their control. Just like the higher class children whose parents could afford to have people read to their child should not be rewarded in society due to an action beyond their control.
LOL so quality of work wouldnt matter then and type of work wouldnt matter?
LOL life isnt fair, who ever told you it was lied to your idealistic ass...
plenty of ppl have it a lot better than I did growing up bro, I busted my ass went to school got a degree, got a semi decent job and am now paying my way through an MBA program that I attend at night...
dont sit here and tell me that I should get paid the same as others who had the same opportunities i did and didnt do shit about it.
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Yep.
And people who drink too much have a gene that forces their mouth to a bottle, right?
Do you think people who are genetically predisposed to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder have the same ability to be a successful business person then someone who doesn't?
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what would be the incentive to better yourself? or take risks in starting a business in your utopia magoo?
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Do you think people who are genetically predisposed to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder have the same ability to be a successful business person then someone who doesn't?
Probably not. So?
Some people are fucked - what's that got to do with anything?
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A lot of very powerful people are sociopaths. Its est. that 1 out of every 25 people on earth are sociopaths. Read a little about how the sociopath's mind works and tell me that they don't have a huge advantage in a Capitalistic society. Not having the ability to care about another persons feelings etc. can make a smart sociopath robotic like.
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.htm
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LOL so quality of work wouldnt matter then and type of work wouldnt matter?
LOL life isnt fair, who ever told you it was lied to your idealistic ass...
plenty of ppl have it a lot better than I did growing up bro, I busted my ass went to school got a degree, got a semi decent job and am now paying my way through an MBA program that I attend at night...
dont sit here and tell me that I should get paid the same as others who had the same opportunities i did and didnt do shit about it.
I didn't say life was fair. I said keep in mind I was talking about theoretically, not practically. I know life isn't fair, but that does not mean life should not be fair. In regards to your last sentence, I'm not saying you should get paid the same as them. In a socialist equality of opportunity (Term taken from G.A. Cohen), the ones who choose to stay home watching football and drinking beer will end up with less money and less wealth than someone like you who chooses to work. There would still be inequality, you will still be richer than football watching beer drinkers for example. But this inequality is based on choice, as opposed to Person X who has the same work ethic as you, etc, but because of reasons not due to his own choice, he winds up disadvantaged. I'm talking about what distribution should be morally permissible. This is theory, not practical, so all those "it doesn't work that way" comments are useless.
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Probably not. So?
Some people are fucked - what's that got to do with anything?
A lot of people are fucked. And a lot of them are poor.
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A lot of people are fucked. And a lot of them are poor.
And a lot of poor are fucked by their own foolish choices. An eight year-old can see this.
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"If you live in America and are poor, its a life choice" - Jr.
100% CORRECT!
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A lot of people are fucked. And a lot of them are poor.
yea, i know a chick who has two kids, refuses to work, not sure who fathered her children, but got $5k in "Earned Income Credit" and spent all the money on pills and refuses to pay her rent. :o :o She chooses to be poor, but it was pretty funny watching her get evicted. :D She was screaming, "Where's my money for my kids?" :-\
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yea, i know a chick who has two kids, refuses to work, not sure who fathered her children, but got $5k in "Earned Income Credit" and spent all the money on pills and refuses to pay her rent. :o :o She chooses to be poor, but it was pretty funny watching her get evicted. :D She was screaming, "Where's my money for my kids?" :-\
It wasn't her fault. She was genetically predisposed to choose pills over rent.
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And a lot of poor are fucked by their own foolish choices. An eight year-old can see this.
One of the untold secrets about the homeless are that its est. that 70% have sever mental illness which goes untreated in a lot of cases. And certainly not by choice. What looks like foolish choices to someone who is in line and following the rules is something much more complicated.
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"If you live in America and are poor, its a life choice" - Jr.
100% CORRECT!
Even if you go to college, get a degree, study hard, spend 12 hours a day looking for a job, does not mean you will be successful.
A simple book that talks about this is Bait and Switch.
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"If you live in America and are poor, its a life choice" - Jr.
100% CORRECT!
You have an ex-wife who you say is mentally ill. Do you believe that's her choice or is it in her wiring?
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It wasn't her fault. She was genetically predisposed to choose pills over rent.
Yea, you are right. ;) She was asking for Roxy's, Oxy's, Perc's, Clozapenem, Pot,..etc. This chick was always spaced out and would pass wherever she was at. I always heard, "I use to pay taxes and i deserve money for my kids." :-\
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True, that why you start your own business.
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One of the untold secrets about the homeless are that its est. that 70% have sever mental illness which goes untreated in a lot of cases. And certainly not by choice. What looks like foolish choices to someone who is in line and following the rules is something much more complicated.
Poor vs. homeless? We're talking working poor here, keep abreast.
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I didn't say life was fair. I said keep in mind I was talking about theoretically, not practically. I know life isn't fair, but that does not mean life should not be fair. In regards to your last sentence, I'm not saying you should get paid the same as them. In a socialist equality of opportunity (Term taken from G.A. Cohen), the ones who choose to stay home watching football and drinking beer will end up with less money and less wealth than someone like you who chooses to work. There would still be inequality, you will still be richer than football watching beer drinkers for example. But this inequality is based on choice, as opposed to Person X who has the same work ethic as you, etc, but because of reasons not due to his own choice, he winds up disadvantaged. I'm talking about what distribution should be morally permissible. This is theory, not practical, so all those "it doesn't work that way" comments are useless.
LOL well in that case its an idiotic theory and doesnt work in theory either...
where is the drive to take risks in your theory? to innovate, invent and implement new ideas?
for the most part non existent, in your theory we would all basically still be in the dark ages. People create things and take chances to build it for the masses for the most part b/c of the drive to make money.
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LOL well in that case its an idiotic theory and doesnt work in theory either...
where is the drive to take risks in your theory? to innovate, invent and implement new ideas?
for the most part non existent, in your theory we would all basically still be in the dark ages. People create things and take chances to build it for the masses for the most part b/c of the drive to make money.
I sent you a PM talking about the economic side of the theory. I answered your question in it. I would suggest reading G.A. Cohen if you want more info regarding a socialist equality of opportunity. Your last sentence resorts back to the "is" problem. Just because People create things, take risks, etc, because of a greedy drive to make money does not mean it should be like that.
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Even if you go to college, get a degree, study hard, spend 12 hours a day looking for a job, does not mean you will be successful.
A simple book that talks about this is Bait and Switch.
LOL thats b/c of supply and demand you know one of the pillars of business?
does supply and demand not apply itself in your fantasy world?
do businesses always make exactly what the demand will be? LMFAO
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I sent you a PM talking about the economic side of the theory. I answered your question in it. I would suggest reading G.A. Cohen if you want more info regarding a socialist equality of opportunity. Your last sentence resorts back to the "is" problem. Just because People create things, take risks, etc, because of a greedy drive to make money does not mean it should be like that.
LOL ok lets look at it from this angle then...
what makes you think it should be fair and that it would be better if it was fair?
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Yea, you are right. ;) She was asking for Roxy's, Oxy's, Perc's, Clozapenem, Pot,..etc. This chick was always spaced out and would pass wherever she was at. I always heard, "I use to pay taxes and i deserve money for my kids." :-\
She's an addict. She will say anything. Kids should be taken away. Mental illness and addiction go hand and hand. Maybe if she knew about her mental illness years ago, she might not have had kids and put a stop to the cycle.
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Just because People create things, take risks, etc, because of a greedy drive to make money does not mean it should be like that.
Yes it does. Their greed benefits us all.
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LOL thats b/c of supply and demand you know one of the pillars of business?
does supply and demand not apply itself in your fantasy world?
do businesses always make exactly what the demand will be? LMFAO
Coach said that being poor was purely by choice. I said even if one had the complete opposite choice (They choose to try to better themselves by going to college, etc) then it is not a guarantee for success. Therefore Coach's point about being purely choice is invalid.
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She's an addict. She will say anything. Kids should be taken away.
Why? She had no control over the situation. Punish her for bad genes, I don't get it.
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Yes it does. Their greed benefits us all.
I disagree with "all". Their greed does not benefit all. It benefits only some while hurts the disadvantaged.
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Poor people that come from other countries? (Legally)
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REPEAT AFTER ME -
UNTIL OBAMA ADMN IS OUSTED FROM OFFICE THINGS WILL ONLY GET WORSE
I talk to dozens of business people daily, the job creators, and they are on strike and in turtle mode until obama is ousted from office. He is like a black plague over the nation, no pun intended.
Really? Because i work at Walmart Corporate and im seeing a hiring frenzy. Not only in my dept but in the entire company.
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Yes it does. Their greed benefits us all.
Whats the end game? How much greed is too much? Has Capitalism jumped the shark?
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Coach said that being poor was purely by choice. I said even if one had the complete opposite choice (They choose to try to better themselves by going to college, etc) then it is not a guarantee for success. Therefore Coach's point about being purely choice is invalid.
LOL i agree that its not simply by choice just like being rich isnt simply by being born into it or having natural ability that others dont have as in your athelete example...
but you didnt answer my question....supply and demand are one of the tenents of business.
To me for your socialist utopia to work every company would have to make the same amount, the same quality of product and all basically barter b/c your making the same wages your basically just exchanging products...
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Why? She had no control over the situation. Punish her for bad genes, I don't get it.
Kids aren't a possession. So I don't see it as punishment. If her 'sickness" puts the kids in danger, then society needs to take them out of danger.
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I disagree with "all". Their greed does not benefit all. It benefits only some while hurts the disadvantaged.
Sure it does. Some greedy medicine man developed the diabetes potion that keeps your probably fat, presumably lazy, obviously "disadvantaged" leech breathing. And another greedy man made one just like it, so now your poor friend is paying next to nothing.
Greed is good. Greed works.
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LOL i agree that its not simply by choice just like being rich isnt simply by being born into it or having natural ability that others dont have as in your athelete example...
but you didnt answer my question....supply and demand are one of the tenents of business.
To me for your socialist utopia to work every company would have to make the same amount, the same quality of product and all basically barter b/c your making the same wages your basically just exchanging products...
I do think being rich is in part a result of natural ability. I called it a general term: "the natural lottery" and this encompasses all of the things that aren't by individual choice.
The economic policy in theory would have to be reworked drastically. However, it is important to remember that the practicable concerns (Is it possible?) is very different from the desireable concerns (If it is possible, is it desireable?). I'm focusing more on the latter, saying that this is what is morally desireable.
oh by the way, thanks for agreeing that Coach is wrong ;D
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I do think being rich is in part a result of natural ability. I called it a general term: "the natural lottery" and this encompasses all of the things that aren't by individual choice.
The economic policy in theory would have to be reworked drastically. However, it is important to remember that the practicable concerns (Is it possible?) is very different from the desireable concerns (If it is possible, is it desireable?). I'm focusing more on the latter, saying that this is what is morally desireable.
oh by the way, thanks for agreeing that Coach is wrong ;D
problem with your theory is that everyone has some natural ability that is marketable its whether they choose to exploit it or not...
and not it is not desireable b/c it would greatly limit innovation and drive...
again if the janitor makes as much as the CEO, why become a CEO?
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problem with your theory is that everyone has some natural ability that is marketable its whether they choose to exploit it or not...
and not it is not desireable b/c it would greatly limit innovation and drive...
again if the janitor makes as much as the CEO, why become a CEO?
They would choose to use their marketable natural ability if the market was turned by the wheels of benevolence instead of greed like it is now. For example, one of my professors is an Oxford graduate who could easily be working in the private sector for a large sum of money. He did not choose to follow his greed, but his benevolence, in deciding his career path. Ideally speaking, it is completely possible for people's benevolence to be a spark of motivation as opposed to their desire for a larger paycheck for example. Therefore, people would just as easily market their skill as they do now, and innovation and drive would be present. The CEO (to use your term) would be a CEO for the same reason my teacher decided to be a teacher, or the same reason some doctors decide to become doctors, or some scientists become scientists, etc. Not necessarily to make more money, but to use their natural abilities and talents for non-greed purposes.
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In regards to the thread's topic about the poor being poor by choice and that "if anybody works hard, then they can succeed" etc. This came out today. I thought it was interesting.
http://www.boingboing.net/2011/07/08/half-of-us-social-pr.html
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One of the untold secrets about the homeless are that its est. that 70% have sever mental illness which goes untreated in a lot of cases. And certainly not by choice. What looks like foolish choices to someone who is in line and following the rules is something much more complicated.
LOL I think this is pretty apparent, what sane person would choose to live in an alleyway in a cardboard box??!
I would venture to say that probably 85-90% of homeless have some kind of mental disease or complex
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I see a lot of pessimistic people in this thread who are just satisfied with the status quo and are pissed at people who want a better life for themselves and their families. I call most of these people lazy with no drive in life.
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I see a lot of pessimistic people in this thread who are just satisfied with the status quo and are pissed at people who want a better life for themselves and their families. I call most of these people lazy with no drive in life.
Peggy joseph!
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They would choose to use their marketable natural ability if the market was turned by the wheels of benevolence instead of greed like it is now. For example, one of my professors is an Oxford graduate who could easily be working in the private sector for a large sum of money. He did not choose to follow his greed, but his benevolence, in deciding his career path. Ideally speaking, it is completely possible for people's benevolence to be a spark of motivation as opposed to their desire for a larger paycheck for example. Therefore, people would just as easily market their skill as they do now, and innovation and drive would be present. The CEO (to use your term) would be a CEO for the same reason my teacher decided to be a teacher, or the same reason some doctors decide to become doctors, or some scientists become scientists, etc. Not necessarily to make more money, but to use their natural abilities and talents for non-greed purposes.
problem is it is still greed, im sure youve gone over the idea in one of your philosophy classes that there is no such thing as an altruistic act...
fact is they do derive some pleasure from doing what you feel is a benevolent act. That right there is greed just the same. The CEO's start desiring to be the best CEO so they compete...competition in your utopia is the enemy b/c competition leads to more greed no matter if its for money or for recognition or simply the good feeling you get from helping others...
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I see a lot of pessimistic people in this thread who are just satisfied with the status quo and are pissed at people who want a better life for themselves and their families. I call most of these people lazy with no drive in life.
Proverbs 21:13
If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered.
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I give $10-20k per year in charity...you?
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problem is it is still greed, im sure youve gone over the idea in one of your philosophy classes that there is no such thing as an altruistic act...
fact is they do derive some pleasure from doing what you feel is a benevolent act. That right there is greed just the same. The CEO's start desiring to be the best CEO so they compete...competition in your utopia is the enemy b/c competition leads to more greed no matter if its for money or for recognition or simply the good feeling you get from helping others...
being self interested is not the same as selfish. We do discuss egoism in ethics classes, but nobody believes it is true. There is such a thing as an altruistic act. See James Rachels.
http://people.umass.edu/cox/egoism.pdf (it's not straight so print it out or find another copy online)
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BTW Von Doom, that's money I give freely not money that Obama wants to steal from me.
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BTW Von Doom, that's money I give freely not money that Obama wants to steal from me.
If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom.
--Job 13:5
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being self interested is not the same as selfish. We do discuss egoism in ethics classes, but nobody believes it is true. There is such a thing as an altruistic act. See James Rachels.
http://people.umass.edu/cox/egoism.pdf (it's not straight so print it out or find another copy online)
doesnt matter whether you believe it or not its an arguable point and very logical...
and goes back to my point that morals arent universal and any theory that uses that as one of its premises isnt valid...
i.e. your utopia
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doesnt matter whether you believe it or not its an arguable point and very logical...
and goes back to my point that morals arent universal and any theory that uses that as one of its premises isnt valid...
i.e. your utopia
The fact is that ethical egoism is NOT a fact, as shown by the Rachels piece. I hope you read the piece and saw the arguments against egoism.
I disagree with your point about all moral theories are subjective. The statement "all beliefs regarding moral theories are subjective" is itself a subjective statement and cannot be objectively true. So claiming that moral theories are subjective is a self defeating claim.
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I see a lot of pessimistic people in this thread who are just satisfied with the status quo and are pissed at people who want a better life for themselves and their families. I call most of these people lazy with no drive in life.
Don't you think conservatism might be the status quo? We should be living on other planets right now if it weren't for the Dark ages who thought science was witch craft...Lets just keep pushing forward and if and when we make mistakes along the way, who fucking cares, life isn't a precious as some want to believe. The WW2 generation are looked at as the greatest generation of all time. And these fools dropped an Atomic bomb on human fucking beings. Think about that for a second.
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Its human nature to want to progress...Every single part of our lives in surrounded by progression(Science,sports,technology, body, mind, spirit etc)...Why would anyone would to just slow it all down? Everything has a beginning---and everything has an end...Progress as much as you can in the time frame you have.
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We don't have a taxing problem. We have a spending problem.
I've heard this so many times are you a fucking parrot ??? Was it the weekly catch-phrase on Fox News??
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I've heard this so many times are you a fucking parrot ??? Was it the weekly catch-phrase on Fox News??
::)
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I've heard this so many times are you a fucking parrot ??? Was it the weekly catch-phrase on Fox News??
Then please, by all means refute this.
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Then please, by all means refute this.
Sending the govt more money is stupid - they will just piss it away on more gun running scams, failed stim bills, etc. .