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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 11:28:46 AM

Title: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 11:28:46 AM
from the police-as-art-critics dept

Apparently the police in Long Beach, California, have a policy that says if a police officer determines that a photographer is taking photos of something with "no apparent esthetic value," they can detain them. This revelation came after photographer Sander Roscoe Wolff was taking the following photo:

cont...

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110815/23584515540/police-say-they-can-detain-photographers-if-their-photographs-have-no-apparent-esthetic-value.shtml

Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Roger Bacon on August 19, 2011, 11:30:27 AM
Welcome to America...  ::)
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: 240 is Back on August 19, 2011, 11:32:22 AM
Note to self...

if you videotape a cop beating someone,
hit 'send' and send it to your home email before they start whooping your ass.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 11:35:49 AM
detaining fine art photographers lol...  This is a strange new low even for cops.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Roger Bacon on August 19, 2011, 11:41:13 AM
Note to self...

if you videotape a cop beating someone,
hit 'send' and send it to your home email before they start whooping your ass.

HAHA!!

Unless the cop is beating a bodybuilder, there's certainly no apparent esthetic value!
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 12:22:38 PM
9/11 anniversary is approaching. What we KNOW about terrorists is that they often case targets prior to attacking. So if a cop sees someone taking photographs of a location that isn't ordinarily photographed, it may be in our best interest for him to put down the donut and check it out. Someone taking pictures of a major bridge may be and probably will be perfectly innocent. Doesn't hurt to stop and ask him what's up. Their concern is not that someone is taking a photograph, but that someone may be in the early stages of gathering intel on a possible target. Or....we could just tell cops not to bother with any of that.. we'll probably be okay   
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: garebear on August 19, 2011, 12:26:44 PM
9/11 anniversary is approaching. What we KNOW about terrorists is that they often case targets prior to attacking. So if a cop sees someone taking photographs of a location that isn't ordinarily photographed, it may be in our best interest for him to put down the donut and check it out. Someone taking pictures of a major bridge may be and probably will be perfectly innocent. Doesn't hurt to stop and ask him what's up. Their concern is not that someone is taking a photograph, but that someone may be in the early stages of gathering intel on a possible target. Or....we could just tell cops not to bother with any of that.. we'll probably be okay   
Good post.

How about we just outlaw pictures altogether? Then the terrorists can't use them.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 12:31:42 PM
Good post.

How about we just outlaw pictures altogether? Then the terrorists can't use them.


Finally! Someone with some common sense!
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: garebear on August 19, 2011, 12:36:18 PM
from the police-as-art-critics dept

Apparently the police in Long Beach, California, have a policy that says if a police officer determines that a photographer is taking photos of something with "no apparent esthetic value," they can detain them. This revelation came after photographer Sander Roscoe Wolff was taking the following photo:

cont...

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110815/23584515540/police-say-they-can-detain-photographers-if-their-photographs-have-no-apparent-esthetic-value.shtml


I like that picture. What were the cops even worried about, that they would blow that condemned building up or what?
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 12:36:53 PM
Finally! Someone with some common sense!
WTF... :-\

Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 12:39:55 PM
I like that picture. What were the cops even worried about, that they would blow that condemned building up or what?

Is that what it was? A condemned building?
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: garebear on August 19, 2011, 12:43:05 PM
Just guessing. My point was that it doesn't look like some kind of terrorist target anyway.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 01:00:26 PM
Is that what it was? A condemned building?
yes, detained over photographing junk.

That is the photograph he was detained for lol
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 01:05:11 PM
Plus, look how stupid this is?  They're basically saying they'll detain you and check you out if you're photographing shit nobody cares about.  Ok, that's kind of the opposite from what Agnostic just said.  tourists take pictures of the shit that would be targeted by terrorists.  These cops will check you out if you're not doing that and are off photographing fire hydrants or some shit lol...
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 01:08:35 PM
Just guessing. My point was that it doesn't look like some kind of terrorist target anyway.

Turns out it was a refinery...

In the article I found it says "for taking pictures of a refinery".. Then the Chief comments on it.  

"If an officer sees someone taking pictures of something like a refinery,” says [Police Chief Jim McDonnell], “it is incumbent upon the officer to make contact with the individual.” McDonnell went on to say that whether said contact becomes detainment depends on the circumstances the officer encounters.

McDonnell says that while there is no police training specific to determining whether a photographer’s subject has “apparent esthetic value,” officers make such judgments “based on their overall training and experience” and will generally approach photographers not engaging in “regular tourist behavior.”


I'm trying to get worked up over this... just cant seem to do it...
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 01:12:12 PM
I know that around my city there are water treatment plants, and various other things that are on a list of places to be on a higher level of alert around. It stands to reason if someone is taking photos of something like that.. a place and or thing not normally of interest to visitors but could be of intererest to terrorist, we would be derelict in our duties NOT to look into it. Agree?
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 01:16:37 PM
LOL, I think the picture is of this abandoned oil refinery in long beach.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/edsel12/4279663734/

If he were taking pictures of an active oil refinery that close, he would have needed permission to be on the property and there would be something to actually charge him with, right?
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 01:34:51 PM
LOL, I think the picture is of this abandoned oil refinery in long beach.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/edsel12/4279663734/

If he were taking pictures of an active oil refinery that close, he would have needed permission to be on the property and there would be something to actually charge him with, right?

I don't know how close you have to be with lenses these days but if they were on the property of an abandoned refinery, they would require the same permission.

I guess my point is this, cops or at least cops I work with don't care about someone taking pictures of benign things like the article tries to make it out. We really have other things we could be doing like eating, or visiting our buddies or beating jay walkers (said in jest because I know that is what a lot of people think  thats all we do. ) It was likely a security concern when all the facts are known
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Dos Equis on August 19, 2011, 01:38:25 PM
I know that around my city there are water treatment plants, and various other things that are on a list of places to be on a higher level of alert around. It stands to reason if someone is taking photos of something like that.. a place and or thing not normally of interest to visitors but could be of intererest to terrorist, we would be derelict in our duties NOT to look into it. Agree?

Agree.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: garebear on August 19, 2011, 01:39:01 PM
I think we should all be arrested for talking about the picture.

Hope you boys are cool with the slammer.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 01:40:16 PM
I think we should all be arrested for talking about the picture.

Hope you boys are cool with the slammer.

 :)
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Roger Bacon on August 19, 2011, 02:49:56 PM
I want the government to intrude, and trample all my freedom so they can keep me safe!!!!

Fucking cowards.......
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Roger Bacon on August 19, 2011, 02:51:42 PM
I honestly didn't think anyone on getbig would even try to defend this. 

Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 02:56:27 PM
I don't know how close you have to be with lenses these days but if they were on the property of an abandoned refinery, they would require the same permission.

I guess my point is this, cops or at least cops I work with don't care about someone taking pictures of benign things like the article tries to make it out. We really have other things we could be doing like eating, or visiting our buddies or beating jay walkers (said in jest because I know that is what a lot of people think  thats all we do. ) It was likely a security concern when all the facts are known
if that's the case, then why not just charge him with criminal tresspass or some shit?  It seems like that's the first reason for detaining or arresting someone.  This place doesn't look maintained so I think it's the abandoned refinery.  If he did take it from off of the property, lol.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 04:31:59 PM
I honestly didn't think anyone on getbig would even try to defend this. 



Probably due to your lack of information. I understand. But the deal is, there are times when someone photographing something rises to the level that an inquiry is prudent. If you cannot understand this in this day and age, that's okay too. We'll watch over you anyway
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 04:36:28 PM
if that's the case, then why not just charge him with criminal tresspass or some shit?  It seems like that's the first reason for detaining or arresting someone.  This place doesn't look maintained so I think it's the abandoned refinery.  If he did take it from off of the property, lol.

Well, let's recap. There are people on here up in arms because the cop detained the photographer to determine what was going on. That's a horrible thing to do.. but it would be OK if the cop had then arrested the photographer for trespassing?

I'm not sure of all the facts, and call me crazy, but I don't have an issue with a cop who sees someone photographing a refinery asking what's going on. And if it is as abandoned and secluded as we're being led to believe, it is likely the cop was there on a call of a suspicious person and not just tooling by..

Anyhoo, there are a lot of things to get upset about cops doing, this probably isn't one of them.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Roger Bacon on August 19, 2011, 05:07:46 PM
I think we should all be arrested for talking about the picture.

Hope you boys are cool with the slammer.

I agree, I'll gladly spend some time in jail if it keeps us safe from TERRORISM!!!
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Bindare_Dundat on August 19, 2011, 05:10:49 PM
Anyone with a camera should rot in jail, period. Why give the enemy any ammunition?
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 05:11:20 PM
why the hell would a terrorist need to take pictures?  You can google multiple pics of about anything major anyway and google earth is there for the rest.  At some point don't we need to ask if it's better to live free or live in fear?  No fear kinda died after 9/11... why?  Nobody said freedom was safe.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Roger Bacon on August 19, 2011, 05:11:53 PM
Anyone with a camera should rot in jail, period. Why give the enemy any ammunition?

Good point! What say you Agnostic?
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Roger Bacon on August 19, 2011, 05:13:51 PM
At some point don't we need to ask if it's better to live free or live in fear?  Nobody said freedom was safe.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Benjamin Franklin
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Deicide on August 19, 2011, 05:14:48 PM
why the hell would a terrorist need to take pictures?  You can google multiple pics of about anything major anyway and google earth is there for the rest.  At some point don't we need to ask if it's better to live free or live in fear?  No fear kinda died after 9/11... why?  Nobody said freedom was safe.

http://www.infragard.net/

Watch out for these guys, the ultimate snoops and very dangerous...
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Bindare_Dundat on August 19, 2011, 05:16:35 PM
why the hell would a terrorist need to take pictures?  You can google multiple pics of about anything major anyway and google earth is there for the rest.  At some point don't we need to ask if it's better to live free or live in fear?  No fear kinda died after 9/11... why?  Nobody said freedom was safe.

You have been reported.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 05:22:51 PM
http://www.infragard.net/

Watch out for these guys, the ultimate snoops and very dangerous...
is that a privatized portion of DHS or something?
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 05:24:31 PM
You have been reported.
;D  probably a long time ago lol...  My file size probably doubled for being gimmicky and changing my screen name to Hugo Chavez :D
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 05:26:49 PM
Good point! What say you Agnostic?

hear hear!! Rot I say!
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 05:29:05 PM
hear hear!! Rot I say!
rot ???
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 05:29:52 PM
why the hell would a terrorist need to take pictures?  You can google multiple pics of about anything major anyway and google earth is there for the rest.  At some point don't we need to ask if it's better to live free or live in fear?  No fear kinda died after 9/11... why?  Nobody said freedom was safe.

Seriously?
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Bindare_Dundat on August 19, 2011, 05:29:57 PM
;D  probably a long time ago lol...  My file size probably doubled for being gimmicky and changing my screen name to Hugo Chavez :D


Save a good spot in the unmarked  cube van for me.  ;D
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 05:31:20 PM
Anyone with a camera should rot in jail, period. Why give the enemy any ammunition?

rot...
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 05:33:26 PM
Seriously?
I dunno, I'm not a terrorist.  Why would they need pics of shit that's all over the net and you can google earth?  You tell me?
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Roger Bacon on August 19, 2011, 05:35:48 PM
hear hear!! Rot I say!

haha  ;D
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Deicide on August 19, 2011, 05:37:12 PM
is that a privatized portion of DHS or something?

No, business and energy interests teaming up with the FBI, basically an extra branch of the FBI and the FBI has given them full authority to use deadly force at any time they think it appropriate and there are thousands of chapters.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Roger Bacon on August 19, 2011, 05:38:33 PM
No, business and energy interests teaming up with the FBI, basically an extra branch of the FBI and the FBI has given them full authority to use deadly force at any time they think it appropriate and there are thousands of chapters.

We're coming upon the 10th anniversary of 9/11.  We need these people to protect us! If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about you dumb lib!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Deicide on August 19, 2011, 05:39:19 PM
We're coming upon the 10th anniversary of 9/11.  We need these people to protect us! If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about you dumb lib!!!!!!!!!!!

Indeed.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 05:41:56 PM
No, business and energy interests teaming up with the FBI, basically an extra branch of the FBI and the FBI has given them full authority to use deadly force at any time they think it appropriate and there are thousands of chapters.
so it's a private association with the FBI with the licence to kill...  That's nice lol...

A place for laid off blackwater types to get a job haha...
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 05:56:05 PM
No, business and energy interests teaming up with the FBI, basically an extra branch of the FBI and the FBI has given them full authority to use deadly force at any time they think it appropriate and there are thousands of chapters.
do you have some info on their authority to use deadly force?  I just wanna make sure that's correct.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 19, 2011, 05:58:14 PM
do you have some info on their authority to use deadly force?  I just wanna make sure that's correct.

We may not agree on a lot, but I do like that you don't take everything said on face value
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Deicide on August 19, 2011, 06:10:47 PM
do you have some info on their authority to use deadly force?  I just wanna make sure that's correct.

You should read through this.

http://whitewraithe.wordpress.com/infragard-private-sector-spy-program/
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 06:19:51 PM
We may not agree on a lot, but I do like that you don't take everything said on face value
thanks, I've fucked up plenty and it usually comes back to bite you at some point so I try to make sure the facts are right.  doing the mod thing kinda got me in that habbit too.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 19, 2011, 06:34:29 PM
You should read through this.

http://whitewraithe.wordpress.com/infragard-private-sector-spy-program/
thanks, intersting shit for sure.

I found the origin of the story:
http://web.archive.org/web/20090318122516/http://progressive.org/mag_rothschild0308

The FBI denied it all and here is the follow up response from the author:

http://www.progressive.org/mag_wx030108
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: quadzilla456 on August 19, 2011, 11:38:02 PM
9/11 anniversary is approaching. What we KNOW about terrorists is that they often case targets prior to attacking. So if a cop sees someone taking photographs of a location that isn't ordinarily photographed, it may be in our best interest for him to put down the donut and check it out. Someone taking pictures of a major bridge may be and probably will be perfectly innocent. Doesn't hurt to stop and ask him what's up. Their concern is not that someone is taking a photograph, but that someone may be in the early stages of gathering intel on a possible target. Or....we could just tell cops not to bother with any of that.. we'll probably be okay   
The brain wash runs deep in you.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Deicide on August 20, 2011, 02:09:27 AM
thanks, intersting shit for sure.

I found the origin of the story:
http://web.archive.org/web/20090318122516/http://progressive.org/mag_rothschild0308

The FBI denied it all and here is the follow up response from the author:

http://www.progressive.org/mag_wx030108

True or not, the FBI would never admit to anything like that.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 20, 2011, 02:14:01 AM
True or not, the FBI would never admit to anything like that.
The guy does a pretty good job calling them out in his rebuttal to the FBI, so at this point I don't doubt it.  Still all this comes down to one unknown whistleblower so who knows.  My faith isn't exactly with the FBI knowing their history lol...
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Deicide on August 20, 2011, 02:15:48 AM
The guy does a pretty good job calling them out in his rebuttal to the FBI, so at this point I don't doubt it.  Still all this comes down to one unknown whistleblower so who knows.  My faith isn't exactly with the fbi knowing their history lol...

Personally I find it scary enough that such an organisation exists in the first place...
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 20, 2011, 02:21:25 AM
Personally I find it scary enough that such an organisation exists in the first place...
yea. I didn't even know about this shit until you mentioned it.  the whole thing is a little WTF.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Skip8282 on August 20, 2011, 06:57:03 AM
Threads like this make wonder where the line is or should be drawn.

The cops just asked the photographer a couple of questions and people are acting as though it's some huge civil rights violation?  Really?

I mean REALLY?  When a cop asks you some questions it's like the kings boot at your neck?

I suppose this could also be the cops fault too.  The entire blue wall and their constant need to issue citations for the most minute infractions.


Fuck I'm a waffle.
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Hugo Chavez on August 20, 2011, 07:16:10 AM
Threads like this make wonder where the line is or should be drawn.

The cops just asked the photographer a couple of questions and people are acting as though it's some huge civil rights violation?  Really?

I mean REALLY?  When a cop asks you some questions it's like the kings boot at your neck?

I suppose this could also be the cops fault too.  The entire blue wall and their constant need to issue citations for the most minute infractions.


Fuck I'm a waffle.
get some coffee and then come back to the forum.  It'll be better ;D
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 20, 2011, 08:47:09 AM
Threads like this make wonder where the line is or should be drawn.

The cops just asked the photographer a couple of questions and people are acting as though it's some huge civil rights violation?  Really?

I mean REALLY?  When a cop asks you some questions it's like the kings boot at your neck?

I suppose this could also be the cops fault too.  The entire blue wall and their constant need to issue citations for the most minute infractions.


Fuck I'm a waffle.



Skip! I'm a little surprised at you... Sounded like some common sense in your response up there... I may just have to make a call to some friends and cancel that hit... hope it's not too late.  
Title: Re: Police Say They Can Detain Photographers
Post by: Dos Equis on August 20, 2011, 04:52:04 PM
Threads like this make wonder where the line is or should be drawn.

The cops just asked the photographer a couple of questions and people are acting as though it's some huge civil rights violation?  Really?

I mean REALLY?  When a cop asks you some questions it's like the kings boot at your neck?

I suppose this could also be the cops fault too.  The entire blue wall and their constant need to issue citations for the most minute infractions.


Fuck I'm a waffle.

Not a waffle at all.  Just using common sense.