Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: OzmO on February 20, 2012, 07:19:31 PM
-
discuss
http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/churchexemption.htm (http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/churchexemption.htm)
Tax Exemptions Available to Churches
America’s tax laws are designed to favor non-profit and charitable institutions which presumably benefit the community. The buildings of private schools and universities, for example, are exempt from property taxes. Donations to charities like the Red Cross are tax deductible. Organizations which engage in medical or scientific research can take advantage of favorable tax laws. Environmental groups can raise tax-free funds by selling books.
Churches, however, tend to benefit the most from the various tax exemptions available, in particular because they qualify for many of them automatically, whereas non-religious groups have to go through a more complicated application and approval process. Non-religious groups also have to be more accountable for where their money goes, while churches, in order to avoid possibly excessive entanglements between church and state, do not have to submit financial disclosure statements.
Tax benefits for religious organizations fall into three general categories: tax-free donations, tax-free land and tax-free commercial enterprises. The first two are much easier to defend and arguments against permitting them are much weaker. The latter, however, often creates problems.
Tax-free Donations: Donations to churches function just like the tax-free donations one might make to any non-profit organization or community group: whatever a person donates is subtracted from their total income before taxes are calculated. This is supposed to encourage people to give more and better support to such groups, which presumably are providing benefits to the community that the government now does not need to be responsible for.
Tax-Free Land: Exemptions from property taxes represent an even larger benefit to churches — there may be as much as $100 billion dollars in untaxed church property in the United States. This creates a problem, according to some, because the tax exemption amounts to a gift of money to the churches at the expense of tax payers. For every dollar which the government cannot collect on church property, it must make up for by collecting it from citizens; thus all citizens are forced to indirectly support churches, even those they do not belong to and may even oppose.
Unfortunately, this indirect violation of the separation of church and state may be necessary in order to avoid a very direct violation of the free exercise of religion. The taxation of church property would put churches more directly at the mercy of the government because the power to tax is, in the long run, the power to control or even destroy.
By removing church property from the power of the state to tax, church property is also removed from the power of the state to directly interfere with. Thus, a hostile government would find it more difficult to interfere with an unpopular or minority religious group. Small local communities sometimes have bad track records with showing tolerance towards new and unusual religious groups; giving them more power over such groups would not be a good idea.
Nevertheless, none of that changes the fact that property tax exemptions are a problem. Not only are citizens forced to indirectly support religious organizations, but some groups benefit much more than others, resulting in problematic religious favoritism. Some institutions, like the Catholic and Mormon churches, have billions of dollars in property whereas others, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, own much, much less.
There is also, unfortunately, the real problem of fraud. Some people tired of high property taxes will send away for mail-order “divinity” diplomas and claim that, because they are now ministers, their personal property is exempt from taxes. The problem got to be enough that in 1981, New York State passed a law declaring mail-order religious exemptions to be illegal.
Even some religious leaders agree that the property tax exemptions are problematic. Eugene Carson Blake, a former head of the National Council of Churches, complained once that tax exemptions ended up putting a greater tax burden on the poor who could least afford it. He feared that one day, the people might turn against their wealthy churches and demand restitution.
The idea that wealthy churches have abandoned their true mission also bothered James Pike, a former Episcopal bishop in San Francisco. According to him, some churches have become much too involved with money and other worldly matters, blinding them to the spiritual calling which should be their focus.
Some groups, like the American Jewish Congress, have made donations to local governments in place of the taxes which they do not have to pay. This shows that they truly are concerned with the entire local community, not simply their own members or congregation, and that they are interested in supporting the government services which they use.
-
yes
-
absolutely
-
yep, as should houses of worship from every religion.
-
Good, let's make colleges, charities, planned parenthood, Sierra club, media matters, all pay taxes too!
-
yes
absolutely
yep, as should houses of worship from every religion.
I thought you guys were for separation of church and state. ???
You want churches to start endorsing political candidates and campaigning for them? They can't do that now, you know?
Like 333386 said, should you tax all other charities as well?
-
No problem.
Now, along with accepting those dollars, the whole nation will have to accept an even greater participation by religious groups in politics and the laws of this country. Some of you might argue that they participate now. Mark my words. Once they get taxed, every religious group, no matter what denomination they might be, will unite and will be more motivated than ever before to change the political arena.
Are you ready for a greater movement than you have ever seen in your life to get Roe vs Wade overturned, prayer put back in the schools and more religious leaders running for office and GETTING ELECTED?
Be careful of what you wish for. You want those dollars, you better be ready to accept the consequences.
-
No problem.
Now, along with accepting those dollars, the whole nation will have to accept an even greater participation by religious groups in politics and the laws of this country. Some of you might argue that they participate now. Mark my words. Once they get taxed, every religious group, no matter what denomination they might be, will unite and will be more motivated than ever before to change the political arena.
Are you ready for a greater movement than you have ever seen in your life to get Roe vs Wade overturned, prayer put back in the schools and more religious leaders running for office and GETTING ELECTED?
Be careful of what you wish for. You want those dollars, you better be ready to accept the consequences.
dario ain't lying!
-
I thought you guys were for separation of church and state. ???
You want churches to start endorsing political candidates and campaigning for them? They can't do that now, you know?
Like 333386 said, should you tax all other charities as well?
SOme already endorse candidates.. but the question was "Do you think churches should pay taxes?" And yes I do.
-
SOme already endorse candidates.. but the question was "Do you think churches should pay taxes?" And yes I do.
Not true. They can't endorse candidates. If they do, they lose their tax exemption.
Do you think all other charities should pay taxes as well?
-
SOme already endorse candidates.. but the question was "Do you think churches should pay taxes?" And yes I do.
Good - lets tax the PBA too! When those fuckers call me for a donation I hang up on them and tell them to go hell.
I would love to tax the shit out planned parenthood, NPR, media matters, WWF, sierra club, river keepers, Green Peace, NOW, etc.
-
Good - lets tax the PBA too! When those fuckers call me for a donation I hang up on them and tell them to go hell.
I would love to tax the shit out planned parenthood, NPR, media matters, WWF, sierra club, river keepers, Green Peace, NOW, etc.
It's not the PBA calling you, its a shill telemarketer who keeps 80% of all donations. Never give to those folks. Our Association will not solicit money that way.
-
No religious entity should be forced to pay taxes. Only because they should have ZERO say in politics.
If a pastor or reverend or anyone get on TV and say anything political they should immediately have to pay taxes.
I do agree that non religious non-profits should pay taxes.
They are just corporations who have to have a zero balance at the end of the year.
After paying their heads hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Fuck them.
-
Not true. They can't endorse candidates. If they do, they lose their tax exemption.
Do you think all other charities should pay taxes as well?
These people act as if a minister or priest getting up in front of a congregation and mentioning a candidate is the same as lobby groups and corporations donating money to candidates and paying for TV ads.
First of all, most religious leaders in their sermons tend to stay away from speaking about politics and advicing the church goers as to who they should vote. Jeremiah Wright, Jerry Falwell when he was alive and a few others are the exception.
But, once the government starts taxing the religious groups, they will put their resources to actively and publicly promote candidates. Every minister will be given the green light to motivate their congregation and influence them to vote a certain way. Church organizations will be doing their own "get out and vote" campaigns. Their own "acorn" voter registration drives. They will have political ads running all the time in every type of media. Eventually, the churches will come up with their own candidates. Pastors, evangelists, priests, rabbis, and mulim clerics will be running for offices in their respective towns and state. I am not saying they will win the White House, but it won't surprise me when they start winning seats in both houses of Congress.
Some of you want a third party. LOL!! That taxation will give you a third party and a powerful one. Don't underestimate the resources and the people of these religious groups.
Leave the sleeping giant alone. Trust me.
-
These people act as if a minister or priest getting up in front of a congregation and mentioning a candidate is the same as lobby groups and corporations donating money to candidates and paying for TV ads.
First of all, most religious leaders in their sermons tend to stay away from speaking about politics and advicing the church goers as to who they should vote. Jeremiah Wright, Jerry Falwell when he was alive and a few others are the exception.
But, once the government starts taxing the religious groups, they will put their resources to actively and publicly promote candidates. Every minister will be given the green light to motivate their congregation and influence them to vote a certain way. Church organizations will be doing their own "get out and vote" campaigns. Their own "acorn" voter registration drives. They will have political ads running all the time in every type of media. Eventually, the churches will come up with their own candidates. Pastors, evangelists, priests, rabbis, and mulim clerics will be running for offices in their respective towns and state. I am not saying they will win the White House, but it won't surprise me when they start winning seats in both houses of Congress.
Some of you want a third party. LOL!! That taxation will give you a third party and a powerful one. Don't underestimate the resources and the people of these religious groups.
Leave the sleeping giant alone. Trust me.
Dario ain't lying. Don't poke that wasps nest.
-
I think you over estimate just how much people listen to their pastors.. most go for social time
-
I think you over estimate just how much people listen to their pastors.. most go for social time
Interesting theory. Where do you get that? Why is it so only in America? You don't see people attending church every week for "social time" in other countries.
-
Interesting theory. Where do you get that? Why is it so only in America? You don't see people attending church every week for "social time" in other countries.
Well, for starters, it's against Catholic teachings to use birth control. No one listens to the Preist.
-
I stopped going to church when they starting pushing that leftist marxist "liberation theology" bullshit.
-
Churches are already FULLY INVOLVED with politics in this country so let's stop pretending to be ignorant of that fact
Churces also use the resources of our society which is why they should pay taxes like every other business (which is what they are)
-
Churches are already FULLY INVOLVED with politics in this country so let's stop pretending to be ignorant of that fact
Churces also use the resources of our society which is why they should pay taxes like every other business (which is what they are)
and NOW, Media Matters, Planned parenthood etc are not?
-
Churches are already FULLY INVOLVED with politics in this country so let's stop pretending to be ignorant of that fact
Churces also use the resources of our society which is why they should pay taxes like every other business (which is what they are)
How are churches "FULLY INVOLVED with politics"? Find one, get proof, turn it in, and that one church will lose their tax exemption.
Churches also offer many benefits to society(help to the poor, free counseling, literacy, etc.) that the government otherwise would have to deal with, as if the government needed more.
How is the church a business?
-
I think you over estimate just how much people listen to their pastors.. most go for social time
I think you underestimate the group that does listen and I think that you will find that a good portion of those people who go for "socializing" don't see anything wrong with a greater infusion of religion in politics.
HEHEHEH!! In time, after the government taxes them, you will be the first one here bitching about the "religious agenda" in politics and about all these religious wackos getting elected.
-
Well, for starters, it's against Catholic teachings to use birth control. No one listens to the Preist.
My question was more about your theory that "most go for social time" in America.
As for "Catholic teachings to use birth control", America's church goers are mostly protestant:
"Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%, Jewish 1.7%, Buddhist 0.7%, Muslim 0.6%, other or unspecified 2.5%, unaffiliated 12.1%, none 4% "
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html
-
Not only that. Look at the uproar over Obama's actions regarding the contraception issue. The church didn't have to do much. All the Catholic church did was send a few letters, talk about it to the media and present their case to the congregation. Obama had to "amend", eventhough it still doesn't go far enough to solve the problem. It became a huge issue because a lot of the other religious groups united with the Catholic church.
Imagine if they start putting their dollars to work. HEHEHEHEEHEH!!!
Yeah, keep lying to yourselves about who listens and doesn't listen to their religious leader. Tax them. You nitwits will be cursing the day you were born.
-
I would remove tax exempt status from almost every organization, especially churches because it has been abused and bring the rates down for everyone. Personal charitable contributions should give the individual tax breaks.
-
How are churches "FULLY INVOLVED with politics"? Find one, get proof, turn it in, and that one church will lose their tax exemption.
Churches also offer many benefits to society(help to the poor, free counseling, literacy, etc.) that the government otherwise would have to deal with, as if the government needed more.
How is the church a business?
are you joking man
are you really that uninformed.
Preachers have been playing politics from the pulpit since the founding of this country right up to the present day
A simple google search will find plenty of examples
Here is one blatant example:
http://www.secularnewsdaily.com/2012/01/12/iowa-pastor-illegally-endorses-bachmann-from-pulpit-2/
The Freedom From Religion Foundation has filed a complaint with the Internal Revenue Service over questionable campaign intervention activities at Jubilee Family Church in Oskaloosa, Iowa.
FFRF is a national state/church watchdog group with over 17,000 members nationwide, including more than 150 in Iowa.
Rep. Michele Bachmann appeared at Jubilee Family Church in what appears to be a quest to garner last-minute votes, days before the Iowa Republican Caucus. On Jan. 1, she arrived to a church crowd bearing, "Bachmann for President" signs and buttons. A table at the back of the church displayed election material.
Bachmann spoke at the church during a typical Sunday worship service. Both Pastor Bill Tvedt and Bachmann addressed the crowd with a mixture of campaign rhetoric and prayer. Tvedt’s final remarks to Bachmann were, "God bless you, you’re awesome."
"Pastor Bill Tvedt inappropriately used his position as pastor of Jubilee Family Church to intervene in a political campaign. He violated IRS regulations by voicing his support for Michele Bachmann," wrote FFRF Senior Staff Attorney Rebecca Markert in a letter to the IRS.
The race for the Republican nomination had been a topic of interest at Jubliee Family Church for several weeks prior to the Iowa Caucus. Tvedt had previously personally endorsed Bachmann and had given a politically themed sermon series, "Spirit of Big Government." He also urged the congregation to "Choose a Leader of Biblical Standards."
No church statement indicated other Republican candidates had ever been invited to address the congregation.
The IRS strictly prohibits 501(c)(3) organizations, which include churches and other religious organizations, from taking part in political campaigns.
"Bachmann’s appearance at an official church function, a Sunday worship service, and Pastor Tvedt’s remarks before and after her speech constitute illegal campaign intervention," noted Markert.
Video footage taken after the service (available on C-SPAN) captured Bachmann lobbying for votes: "I’m glad you came this morning I’d love to have your vote on the third."
"FFRF respectfully requests that the IRS commence an immediate investigation to determine whether Pastor Tvedt violated IRS regulations prohibiting Jubilee Family Church from participating in and/or intervening in a political campaign," wrote Markert.
-
are you joking man
are you really that uninformed.
Preachers have been playing politics from the pulpit since the founding of this country right up to the present day
A simple google search will find plenty of examples
Here is one blatant example:
I'm confused... What was that quote representing?
Are you questioning your own point?
Oh... I see, you are responding to Loco.
-
are you joking man
are you really that uninformed.
Preachers have been playing politics from the pulpit since the founding of this country right up to the present day
A simple google search will find plenty of examples
Here is one blatant example:
Here is another example!
-
http://news.yahoo.com/catholic-monti-moves-end-italy-church-tax-breaks-175827351.html
Catholic Monti moves to end Italy Church tax breaks
ROME (Reuters) - Prime Minister Mario Monti, a Catholic crusading to put Italy's economy in order by ending entrenched privileges such as tax breaks, is striking against an unlikely target - his own Church.
Monti's government issued a statement on Wednesday night saying it had informed the European Commission that it would pass a law ending the Church's exemption from local property taxes on its properties used for commercial purposes.
Estimates on how much this can bring to government coffers have ranged from 700 million euros ($908 million) to more than 1 billion euros.
Italy's Church - once an unshakable, and some say untouchable, institution - has come under fire for what some consider unfair privileges at a time Monti has asked Italians to make unprecedented sacrifices as part of a "tears and blood" austerity plan to thwart a Greek-style crisis.
The European Commission in 2010 opened a probe against Italy to determine if tax breaks for some Church properties amounted to illegal state aid and distorted competition.
Some political parties, particularly the tiny, liberal Radical Party, and some intellectual leaders, have led a campaign to strip the Church of tax exemption on properties that are not used exclusively as places of worship.
Throughout Italy, the Church owns many private clinics, hotels, bed and breakfasts and guest houses that enjoy tax exempt status because parts of the structures are occupied by priests or nuns or have a chapel for worship.
That created a grey area where many structures were essentially commercial but covered by the religious exemption law.
The government statement said the proposal to be presented in parliament would limit the tax exemption to structures that are "exclusively non-commercial." It did not say when it would present the bill.
In mixed-use cases, such as hotels run by nuns, the exemption will apply only to the parts of the structures that are non-commercial, such as chapels and residences for priests and nuns, and the statement said the Economy Ministry - not the Church - would decide which is which.
CHURCH LEADERS NOT INFORMED
Although contacts have been going on for a few months, Monti's move to take the bull by the horns surprised Italy's Catholic hierarchy.
"We are waiting to see the exact formulation of the text in order to provide a detailed judgment," the Italian bishops' conference said in a statement.
The Catholic Church is one of Italy's largest private real estate holders and, if the Commission were to rule against Italy, Rome could be forced to order the Church to reimburse the government for unpaid taxes.
While the law would affect all religions, its impact on the relatively tiny property holdings of the Jewish and Muslim communities would be negligible.
The controversy over Church tax exemptions had been bubbling for years but boiled over in the past few months, particularly after the Monti government re-instated a local property tax on primary residences that had been abolished by his predecessor, Silvio Berlusconi.
In a 48-hour period after the austerity package was passed in December, more than 130,000 people signed an on-line petition demanding that the Church be stripped of much of its tax exempt status and pay its fair share.
At first, the Church dug in its heels, saying tax laws had to take into consideration the social benefit of many of its activities.
But, as austerity began to bite into the budgets of ordinary Italians who were forced to pay more taxes and delay their retirements, Italian Church leaders softened their stand and said they were willing to negotiate and rectify any past abuses.
-
Here is another example!
for sure
happens on all sides
it's time to stop pretending this shit doesn't happen
-
-
I'm confused... What was that quote representing?
Are you questioning your own point?
Oh... I see, you are responding to Loco.
I just clicked on wrong quote
-
I just clicked on wrong quote
All good. I figured it out.
-
yes, why should they be except?
-
yes, why should they be except?
So long as we can tax the unwanted babies out of planned parenthood, the communism out of media matters, the granola out of Sierra Club, the Vaginas and tits out of NOW, the illiterate fools at AFT, the panda bears out of WWF, the pcb's out of River Keeper, etc - im all for it.
-
Absolutely no.
The power to tax is the power to destroy.
That said, we should more rigourously enforce the laws against both religious and non-religious groups engaging in politics.
-
Absolutely no.
The power to tax is the power to destroy.
That said, we should more rigorously enforce the laws against both religious and non-religious groups engaging in politics.
Right Here bitches..
-
I think they should be taxed like everyone else. With that said I think we should all be taxed a hell of a lot less than we are.
-
I think they should be taxed like everyone else. With that said I think we should all be taxed a hell of a lot less than we are.
You can't have lower taxes unless you have less govt. spending. Why do think that the far left keeps demanding more spending? Its because they dont want lower taxes so they ensure that by demanding higher spending.
The spending is the tax, not the other way around.
-
You can't have lower taxes unless you have less govt. spending. Why do think that the far left keeps demanding more spending? Its because they dont want lower taxes so they ensure that by demanding higher spending.
The spending is the tax, not the other way around.
I know how government budgets work and it's pretty fucked up.
Let's say in 2012, you have a budget for 1 million dollars... If you don't spend that million dollars in that year, and let's say, you only spend 500,000, then in 2013, your budget will only be 500,000... So at the end of 2012 departments go out of their way to spend any and all money left in their budget.
Whether they need to or not.
This keeps them getting a million dollars every year.
Budgets should be allowed to shrink and grow as needed... not just to keep a steady check coming in.
It's quite fucked up.
-
You can't have lower taxes unless you have less govt. spending.
No fucking shit... I think I've been pretty clear I've been for that.