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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: littleguns on February 27, 2012, 01:39:41 PM
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Any difference between Skull Crushers and using a curl bra and doing over head extensions? (as it relates to head usage)
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Yes, there is a difference.
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Do them both,not necessarily at the same workout, but alternating them is a good idea.
Overhead Extensions and its variations, is the only exercise that puts the triceps in the fully stretched position,so they should definately be in your routine.
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Overhead extensions very effectively work the long head of the triceps - the one that accounts for the most posterior arm mass. In EVERY arm workout, I perform either overhead extensions (db or bb) and/or bodyweight extensions, which is another extremely productive movement for the long head when done properly.
For many trainers, a significant determining factor in deciding between skull-crushers vs. overhead work comes down to elbow issues.
I feel that the overhead varieties of extensions are more forgiving on my condylar tendons. Although, I’ve learned in recent years that even skull’s can afford similar comfort if done properly.
Some trainers find reduced stress by lowering the bar behind the head rather than to the bridge of the nose. Other people like to perform the move on a decline bench. The biggest help I’ve discovered is to lower the bar slowly, under great control. That seems to reduce much of the trauma that more rapid descents frequently cause.
IMO, a trainer interested in developing complete triceps should incorporate both varieties of exercise. The shorter ROM of supine extensions works the tri’s from a slightly different angle, offering variety; and it can build strength in other extension work, which is a definite plus.
You may also wish to explore skull-crusher derivations such as the JM Press. Larry Scott also had a unique twist on skull’s that borrowed a bit from the JM & traditional skull’s.
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Actually Yev33 hits the nail smack on the head.
SC'ers are a partial rep movement. Overhead extensions are (normally) a full ROM. All things being equal, SC'ers may prove harder on the elbows & wrist. Though some report using 300+ lbs, which is extreme pressure on the tendons/ligaments. Can also do SC'ers with DB's for an ever shorter ROM. And different angles to path of the DB. Any form (BB/DB) does help the bench...if the elbows allow it.
Though BB overhead extensions have been a staple for years, the one arm DB version will allow a fuller overall stretch. But the upper arm should remain close to the head at all times, When the elbows drift out and away (as with a BB) a lot of the direct affect on the triceps is lost. Some do lower the bar to the top of the head or forehead. Can also use cables, rather than DB's.
Using an incline bench, the bar can be lowered behind (full stretch) the neck or to the forehead, like doing SC'er. Alternation reps on this exercise might prove interesting. Good Luck.
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for me personaly over head ez bar extensions put more size on my arms than any other movement...
i cant do them these days with my elbows, have to use overhead cables instead
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Actually Yev33 hits the nail smack on the head.
SC'ers are a partial rep movement. Overhead extensions are (normally) a full ROM. All things being equal, SC'ers may prove harder on the elbows & wrist. Though some report using 300+ lbs, which is extreme pressure on the tendons/ligaments. Can also do SC'ers with DB's for an ever shorter ROM. And different angles to path of the DB. Any form (BB/DB) does help the bench...if the elbows allow it.
Though BB overhead extensions have been a staple for years, the one arm DB version will allow a fuller overall stretch. But the upper arm should remain close to the head at all times, When the elbows drift out and away (as with a BB) a lot of the direct affect on the triceps is lost. Some do lower the bar to the top of the head or forehead. Can also use cables, rather than DB's.
Using an incline bench, the bar can be lowered behind (full stretch) the neck or to the forehead, like doing SC'er. Alternation reps on this exercise might prove interesting. Good Luck.
Hey, dammit: those are all MY points!!
>:( ;D
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Montague: Creative and copyright infringements?
Some where in the vast cosmos expansion, where all universal knowledge is stored, our psyche's must have crossed over to this vault of information at the same moment. Gathering every vital bit of information on The Triceps! And than sharing it with all the hungry minds on GB, yearning for any micro bit of training help. Or something like that, I guess. But than again, it's just the fricken Triceps, not an overly complex muscle to build up.
So that's my story. Good luck.
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both exercises are dangerous and should be avioded at all costs
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Montague: Creative and copyright infringements?
Some where in the vast cosmos expansion, where all universal knowledge is stored, our psyche's must have crossed over to this vault of information at the same moment. Gathering every vital bit of information on The Triceps! And than sharing it with all the hungry minds on GB, yearning for any micro bit of training help. Or something like that, I guess. But than again, it's just the fricken Triceps, not an overly complex muscle to build up.
So that's my story. Good luck.
:D
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Montague: Creative and copyright infringements?
Some where in the vast cosmos expansion, where all universal knowledge is stored, our psyche's must have crossed over to this vault of information at the same moment. Gathering every vital bit of information on The Triceps! And than sharing it with all the hungry minds on GB, yearning for any micro bit of training help. Or something like that, I guess. But than again, it's just the fricken Triceps, not an overly complex muscle to build up.
So that's my story. Good luck.
That's exactly what I suspected!
Damn...it happened again...
GET OUTTA MY HEAD, MAN!!!
8)
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I really like using the cables for overhead extention work, as well as free weights.
I like the rope overhead two arm extentions, as well as the single arm cable extentions where I'll just use the ball at the end of the cable instead of using any kind of attachment.
When you get into the heavier db's the elbows tend to flare out to make room for the db behind your head.
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I really like using the cables for overhead extention work, as well as free weights.
I like the rope overhead two arm extentions, as well as the single arm cable extentions where I'll just use the ball at the end of the cable instead of using any kind of attachment.
When you get into the heavier db's the elbows tend to flare out to make room for the db behind your head.
I knew an amateur-level competitor who liked doing overhead extensions on a Smith machine. The grip was odd: he'd close both hands into fists, use about a shoulder-width hammer grip (palms facing each other), resting the bar on the blade of the hand (ulnar/pinky side), and go into the extension.
He kept the ROM real short and tight.
He was nice enough to work with me a little bit until I got it down.
It was an interesting feel; actually different from using a triceps bar with the parallel handles.
I just thought of it now...may have to add these to a sporadic arm day every now and then.
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i like doing pushdowns using the pulley. single handed. or dual handed. palm down. or palm up. squeeze real hard at the bottom, flex as hard as you can, control the negative for a 3-4 second count, the explode the weight back down to the bottom while keeping good form and only using the tricep. repeat. stay away from failure. just a few good sets is all you need.
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both exercises are dangerous and should be avioded at all costs
if you check your ego at the door you won't get hurt. 70 lbs or so with strict concentration.
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IMO,using a rope handle on anything other than Ab/Serratus Crunches is not a good thing.
The only other exception......again,only my opinion,is on pressdowns where you flare out the arms at the bottom of the movement to flex the triceps hard.
other than that,a straight bar,cambered bar for pulleys,and various V-Bar handles work much better........especially in the handle revolves.
FLAME ON!! ;D
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i do all my extension (seated, standing, lying...) with dumbbells and never get hurt nor have any elbow/wrist issues.
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I knew an amateur-level competitor who liked doing overhead extensions on a Smith machine. The grip was odd: he'd close both hands into fists, use about a shoulder-width hammer grip (palms facing each other), resting the bar on the blade of the hand (ulnar/pinky side), and go into the extension.
He kept the ROM real short and tight.
He was nice enough to work with me a little bit until I got it down.
It was an interesting feel; actually different from using a triceps bar with the parallel handles.
I just thought of it now...may have to add these to a sporadic arm day every now and then.
I sort of developed a version of this on my own with a different twist. It came from not having any equipment open/available to do my normal extensions; where I stand in front of a barbell in a rack/Smith Machine and lean against it. I have seen videos but can't seem to find one right now.
Anyway, I didn't have any possible station I could do the exercise and so I used a Preacher Bench adjusted high enough to where I could use my hands balled up in fists and my head would clear the bench on the way down/up. It's not too different from the regular version I do, but it definitely feels different.
*edit: founda decent version (thanks to those that also searched & found)
[/youtube]
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I sort of developed a version of this on my own with a different twist. It came from not having any equipment open/available to do my normal extensions; where I stand in front of a barbell in a rack/Smith Machine and lean against it. I have seen videos but can't seem to find one right now.
Anyway, I didn't have any possible station I could do the exercise and so I used a Preacher Bench adjusted high enough to where I could use my hands balled up in fists and my head would clear the bench on the way down/up. It's not too different from the regular version I do, but it definitely feels different.
Oh, okay. It sounds like you're describing bodyweight extensions, which are a fabulous triceps exercise; I think I mentioned them in my post up top!
What my buddy did was actually a seated barbell extension with the bar balanced on the fleshy little finger side of his closed fists.
We have an angled Smith machine at one of my current gyms.
I'm going to give these a go next arm session. I haven't even thought about them in years.
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Oh, okay. It sounds like you're describing bodyweight extensions, which are a fabulous triceps exercise; I think I mentioned them in my post up top!
What my buddy did was actually a seated barbell extension with the bar balanced on the fleshy little finger side of his closed fists.
We have an angled Smith machine at one of my current gyms.
I'm going to give these a go next arm session. I haven't even thought about them in years.
I think the bodyweight extensions is a good name, since I call them that too. No matter what I tried to search youtube with though, no luck.
I hope I can remember the exercise you describe on Friday when I do arms. If I were Wes' age I would forget as soon as I hit 'post.' :D
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I sort of developed a version of this on my own with a different twist. It came from not having any equipment open/available to do my normal extensions; where I stand in front of a barbell in a rack/Smith Machine and lean against it. I have seen videos but can't seem to find one right now.
Anyway, I didn't have any possible station I could do the exercise and so I used a Preacher Bench adjusted high enough to where I could use my hands balled up in fists and my head would clear the bench on the way down/up. It's not too different from the regular version I do, but it definitely feels different.
Sounds like 'fixed bar tricep extensions'.
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/excercise/picfixedbartricepextensions.htm
(grip is too wide in the example - weird)
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Sounds like 'fixed bar tricep extensions'.
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/excercise/picfixedbartricepextensions.htm
(grip is too wide in the example - weird)
That is it :)
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Saw Arnold doing those in the mags back in the day YB...he had a bar set midway on a power rack and did them.
I tried them,but the positioning is hard to get........gotta` be just right for the best stretch.
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reg's version
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I've heard those "fixed bar tricep extensions" call push off's of push backs, but never by the fixed bar title (learn something every day). Again, one exercises can go by different names.
The beauty of the movement is that you can adjust the resistance from very light or very heavy by making slight body shifts. Going from a one rep max to a lighter super pump very quickly, all in the same set. Included is a outstanding stretch. Usually the grip is close, as in regular triceps work, than shown in the drawing. The exercise can be preformed just about any where (table, counter, heavy chair, etc..even on a saw horse, which a guy I knew used in his home gym, though mostly for dips). Can also treat this movement like a SC'er or lowering to the upper chest for a different angle on the triceps.
Some will try it for a while but are so programmed to thinking that they need to be using some sort of weight (BB/DB/Cable) resistance, rather than only bwt they never give the exercise a fair shot. Might use it for a light pump at the end of an triceps work, but that's all. Limit thinking can give limited results as far as muscle size goes. The "tri bar ext" can be a stand alone exercise. And produce a super pump, if that is the main goal. This is a pure BB'ing movement.
Might note , that you can shift the majority of the body resistance to one arm at a time, giving more focus to triceps themselves. Good Luck.
Side Bar: Feel free to lower the bar for more of an advanced method, as you progress from the usually waist to lower chest height. If you can do them from a prone (face down) position your getting pretty good.
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I must thank funk51 for his excellent gallery of old time photos. A recorded picture history of BB'ing at it's best. That Draper shot is unreal. Thanks again.
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im tellin yall.. if u havent tried this and have hit a platue give this a shot..
i like doing pushdowns using the pulley. single handed. or dual handed. palm down. or palm up. squeeze real hard at the bottom, flex as hard as you can, control the negative for a 3-4 second count, the explode the weight back down to the bottom while keeping good form and only using the tricep. repeat. stay away from failure. just a few good sets is all you need.
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I tried them,but the positioning is hard to get........gotta` be just right for the best stretch.
At first it was awkward for me to find the right position but quickly got it right.
The most difficult part, for me, is the weight. Even putting it last I'm doing 20+ reps with my body weight. Even if I superset with them. So all I can really do is just put my feet as far back as I can without falling on my face (making the exercise hard as possible) and then make the negative is slow and the tendons feel as if they're about to rip off the insertion points.
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...all I can really do is just put my feet as far back as I can without falling on my face (making the exercise hard as possible) and then make the negative is slow and the tendons feel as if they're about to rip off the insertion points.
You can also lower the bar so that more of your body (and thus, body weight) is above it during the movement. Now, when you extend, you're pushing your weight through more of a vertical plane as opposed to a horizontal one, dramatically adding to the resistance.
Also, I like to carefully dip my head under the bar all the way to my neck for a full stretch at the bottom position.
There are several minor tweaks you can make to this exercise that yield a profound difference in its difficulty.
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i don't do any variations of this stuff anymore... my elbows are now healthy and I aim to keep them that way...
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You can also lower the bar so that more of your body (and thus, body weight) is above it during the movement. Now, when you extend, you're pushing your weight through more of a vertical plane as opposed to a horizontal one, dramatically adding to the resistance.
Also, I like to carefully dip my head under the bar all the way to my neck for a full stretch at the bottom position.
There are several minor tweaks you can make to this exercise that yield a profound difference in its difficulty.
I have done all that. I always lower my head below the bar, have the bar as low as whatever equipment I am using allows and use tension over weight. I would rather use a 10# weight and look like I can bench 500 instead of the other way around.
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I would rather use a 10# weight and look like I can bench 500 instead of the other way around.
Yep.
Your joints and tendons also prefer this mantra. ;D
And, unless you're a competitive athlete, how much functional strength do you really need to do typical things like mow the lawn and change the oil in your car?
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You guys are both right.........as usual,making great points.
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I knew an amateur-level competitor who liked doing overhead extensions on a Smith machine. The grip was odd: he'd close both hands into fists, use about a shoulder-width hammer grip (palms facing each other), resting the bar on the blade of the hand (ulnar/pinky side), and go into the extension.
He kept the ROM real short and tight.
He was nice enough to work with me a little bit until I got it down.
It was an interesting feel; actually different from using a triceps bar with the parallel handles.
I just thought of it now...may have to add these to a sporadic arm day every now and then.
I remembered and tried doing the exercise today and I'm reporting back that it was a good one. I still have to tweak it as I was letting my alignment be off (one elbow drifted in more than the other). But the feel of the exercise and the feel of it, where it hit the belly of my triceps, it was a keeper!
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I remembered and tried doing the exercise today and I'm reporting back that it was a good one. I still have to tweak it as I was letting my alignment be off (one elbow drifted in more than the other). But the feel of the exercise and the feel of it, where it hit the belly of my triceps, it was a keeper!
They do provide a good intense soreness that lasts for one to several days.
I used to feel it all the way down near my elbow, but in the muscle; not the tendons.
Coincidentally, I also have a tendency for my elbows to roll medially from time to time. For me, I think the likelihood increases as my tri's fatigue.
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I could feel it right in the middle of my triceps. When you do a FDB, the lower part of your tri's that hang down, right in the middle right there.
Good suggestion and as long as I remember it.
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you want to hit the outer head of the tricep ... do pushdowns with your palm facing the floor.
you want to hit the long head of your tricep, the one you can see in the front double bicep pose.. do pushdowns with your palm facing the ceiling.
simple
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Pushdowns for the most part are a finishing/final pump/burnout type movement for me........have gone heavy enough where I had to strap weight around my waist to keep me in one spot,but still never got much size out of them.
I still do them usually just to finish off the tris.........just my opinion,I`m sure others have grown veritable tons of muscle using them.
::)
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for me tri pushdowns are like wes said a last pumping ex. I can´t believe anyone would use much weight anyway after heavy close benches/dips. I used to see a lot of guys doing the typical tri pushdowns in the gym like it was the "thing to do" all the champs do it...right?.... I think as wrote before in another thread "go for a good Feeling and burn" ..not just about short choppy movements with giant weights. This is important in tri extensions and this i think is why a lot of people get problems with skull crushers/french press in their joints. End of the day we are all big boys and each to his own ;D
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your not doing it correctly if you need to strap your body down. first, one arm at a time. this will help with symetry. second. keep your upper arm perfectly still throughout the entire motion. absolutely no momentum or sway or help from the shoulder. third, SLOW during the negative. nobody does this. 5 second count , steady paced, from fully extended all the way back up to fully stretched. third, POWERFUL during the concentric. fourth , hold and SQUUUUEEEZZZZZEEEE the tricep at the bottom. squeeze as hard as you can for a 3 second count. repeat. you will not be able to use any where near the amount of weight you normally could, nor near the amount of reps or sets.. but it will dig deeper into the fibers and result in much better gains over time.
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your not doing it correctly if you need to strap your body down. first, one arm at a time. this will help with symetry. second. keep your upper arm perfectly still throughout the entire motion. absolutely no momentum or sway or help from the shoulder. third, SLOW during the negative. nobody does this. 5 second count , steady paced, from fully extended all the way back up to fully stretched. third, POWERFUL during the concentric. fourth , hold and SQUUUUEEEZZZZZEEEE the tricep at the bottom. squeeze as hard as you can for a 3 second count. repeat. you will not be able to use any where near the amount of weight you normally could, nor near the amount of reps or sets.. but it will dig deeper into the fibers and result in much better gains over time.
Cool I'm gunna try this. Are there any good compound movements that u like doing for the long head (the one seen in fdb)?
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I prefer to alternate between the two, but my favorite tricep exercise is Overhead DB Extensions with both hands on one heavy DB. Sometimes it's a pain to get the DB in position but with practice it's a great exercise.
Skull crushers seem to cause elbow soreness for myself and several other guys i have trained with. Going lighter and doing more controlled reps seems to help.
8)
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Cool I'm gunna try this. Are there any good compound movements that u like doing for the long head (the one seen in fdb)?
over head dumbell extensions are great but can be hard on the elbows.
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over head dumbell extensions are great but can be hard on the elbows.
are u talkin about the single handed ones or double handed?
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are u talkin about the single handed ones or double handed?
both work great. double hand lets you use more weight but is harder on the elbows. single arms better for symetry.
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Yesterday Ive tried the overhead extensions with the ez bar, after a long time and my inner triceps are SORE as hell today. :o I can feel the soreness directly there when I flex. Im impressed. 8)
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Yesterday Ive tried the overhead extensions with the ez bar, after a long time and my inner triceps are SORE as hell today. :o I can feel the soreness directly there when I flex. Im impressed. 8)
I did this today and it was fricken amazing. Was doin em seated with the ez bar and I never felt more burn or stress on my triceps before. Inner head was being demolished with em. I think because it lets you get a good stretch behind the head that it works so good.
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Good stuff.
I'm going to try them with an ez-curl bar this week for sure.
8)
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ive been meaning to start doing over head extensions but my elbows are fucked and the machine pushdowns work well so i havent.. i probably should though.. my long heads could use some work..
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Good stuff.
I'm going to try them with an ez-curl bar this week for sure.
8)
INSANE soreness I tell you! 8)
I did them this way.
Starting from 1:10
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^^^ that's a good version if you have a shoulder/rotator cuff issue, at least for me. The overhead dumbell or barbell is murder for my left shoulder. But lying dumbell skull crushers, are a go in my case and hit the long head very well.
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Great video of Gustavo....cant believe he is natural ;)