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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Hugo Chavez on June 24, 2012, 04:20:23 AM
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I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people. What a vile fucking world. God, lol... ::)
32-pound, 10-year-old found locked in Mo. closet
http://news.yahoo.com/32-pound-10-old-found-locked-mo-closet-001500033.html
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Damn....
Very sad :'(
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"God works in Mysterious ways"
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Everything about this earth is cursed by sin (according to the bible) and it only gets worse; that is of course until Jesus comes back (according to the bible)! Just sayin!
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Everything about this earth is cursed by sin (according to the bible) and it only gets worse; that is of course until Jesus comes back (according to the bible)! Just sayin!
lol, and what the hell is the point of all that? Kinda either makes god a freaking psychopath or lazy couch potato..
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I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people. What a vile fucking world. God, lol... ::)
32-pound, 10-year-old found locked in Mo. closet
http://news.yahoo.com/32-pound-10-old-found-locked-mo-closet-001500033.html
Horrible.
Why does God allow this type of thing? Or that young couple tortured and murdered by those savages that aker's brother was on the jury? I don't know.
Hugo, when you hear about this kind of stuff, do you usually find your mind wondering about God and if He is real, where is He in the details and why doesn't He stop this? Or are there an equal amount of times that you don't think of God at all when you hear of these horrors?
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1. God doesn't give a shit.
2. God is powerless to stop it.
3. God doesn't exist.
Only 3 answers to this question. Logically and philosophically.
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lol, and what the hell is the point of all that? Kinda either makes god a freaking psychopath or lazy couch potato..
Read the Christian bible (which talks about the very nature of the God) to get the point! FYI, I have asks that very same question in the past when I too tried to understand God without reading about him. I understand how you feel but read the bible to get the point, you don't have to agree but at least you'll have a better understanding of why he allows terrible things to happen to seemly innocent people and sometimes good things happen to bad people. It frustrates me too at times but I understand God's nature and plan so I accept it. I hate Mosquitoes but they serve a purpose and because I had nothing to do with them being here and when I am gone they will still be here so I have to accept the fact that what I loathe and view as pointless actually has a purpose in this corrupt environment in which we exist.
HM
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Read the Christian bible (which talks about the very nature of the God) to get the point! FYI, I have asks that very same question in the past when I too tried to understand God without reading about him. I understand how you feel but read the bible to get the point, you don't have to agree but at least you'll have a better understanding of why he allows terrible things to happen to seemly innocent people and sometimes good things happen to bad people. It frustrates me too at times but I understand God's nature and plan so I accept it. I hate Mosquitoes but they serve a purpose and because I had nothing to do with them being here and when I am gone they will still be here so I have to accept the fact that what I loathe and view as pointless actually has a purpose in this corrupt environment in which we exist.
HM
The Bible does not answer the question at hand, or else there wouldn't be centuries of discussion over the 'problem of evil' and desperate apologetics to this day trying to resolve the problem.
Since you 'understand God's nature' (how humble!), why don't you answer the question: why did God choose evolution via natural selection as his tool of creation? The process generates the most suffering of all the tools, eliminates 99% of life, and leads to the sorts of mutations that kill innocent children. Since you clearly know the answer, please do tell!
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The Bible does not answer the question at hand, or else there wouldn't be centuries of discussion over the 'problem of evil' and desperate apologetics to this day trying to resolve the problem.
Since you 'understand God's nature' (how humble!), why don't you answer the question: why did God choose evolution via natural selection as his tool of creation? The process generates the most suffering of all the tools, eliminates 99% of life, and leads to the sorts of mutations that kill innocent children. Since you clearly know the answer, please do tell!
No need to mock, I think we can discuss this without insulting. My understanding of God's nature comes from what the bible says about him that
God is eternal, immutable, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. We are not eternal, immutable, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent and therefore we cannot expect to be able to fully understand God’s ways. The book of Job deals with this issue. God allowed Satan to do everything he wanted to Job except kill him. What was Job’s reaction? “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him” (Job 13:15). “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised” (Job 1:21). Job did not understand why God allowed the things He did, but he knew God was good and therefore continued to trust in Him. Ultimately, that should be our reaction as well. I don't want to get wordy but your question, "God chose evolution via natural selection as his tool of creation?" does not follow the original question of this thread. I answered biblically with references.
The Bible makes it abundantly clear that all of us are tainted by and infected with sin Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8, (my original point). Now, because we are all cursed by sin none of us are good and what happen to the 10 yrs old kid is terrible but not surprising given human nature. Romans 3:10-18 could not be clearer about the non-existence of “good” people: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes.
According to the bible this is why these types of abuses are common in this sin cursed environment.
HM.
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No need to mock, I think we can discuss this without insulting. My understanding of God's nature comes from what the bible says about him that
God is eternal, immutable, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. We are not eternal, immutable, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent and therefore we cannot expect to be able to fully understand God’s ways. The book of Job deals with this issue. God allowed Satan to do everything he wanted to Job except kill him. What was Job’s reaction? “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him” (Job 13:15). “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised” (Job 1:21). Job did not understand why God allowed the things He did, but he knew God was good and therefore continued to trust in Him. Ultimately, that should be our reaction as well. I don't want to get wordy but your question, "God chose evolution via natural selection as his tool of creation?" does not follow the original question of this thread. I answered biblically with references.
The Bible makes it abundantly clear that all of us are tainted by and infected with sin Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8, (my original point). Now, because we are all cursed by sin none of us are good and what happen to the 10 yrs old kid is terrible but not surprising given human nature. Romans 3:10-18 could not be clearer about the non-existence of “good” people: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes.
According to the bible this is why these types of abuses are common in this sin cursed environment.
HM.
The question regarding evolution via natural selection is directly relevant to the OP's question because it is a variation on the problem of evil, or, the problem of why God seems to allow such suffering and misery-inducing events to occur uninhibited.
The answer is not in the Bible, or else the Christian apologists could point to it and be done. Instead, there is a centuries old debate. The most sophisticated work on the problem came out of the toiling of the Catholics during the Medieval period and was generated from philosophical reflection, not searching for quotes in the Bible.
Unfortunately, the answer you've provided here is not an answer at all: it reduces to the phrase, 'God works in mysterious ways.' It is a recommendation to entirely ignore a problem and pretend it isn't there, while still maintaining one's belief. It is also extremely questionable because the rest of God's apparent plan is entirely intelligible. Why would his handling of suffering suddenly become incomprehensible to us? The need for 'mystery' only appears when an apparent logical contradiction is at hand.
Would you forgive, say, a scientist for such a thing? Imagine that a scientist's theory on the origins of the universe is fully fleshed out, but when an inconsistency arises, he says, "You must believe me all the same; the universe works in mysterious ways," with that being his only answer in response to critics pointing the inconsistency out. This is a copout and a non-explanation whose only purpose is to paper over theoretical difficulties, both for a scientific theory and a religious one (like Christianity). It is a totally unacceptable move to make in any sort of intellectual inquiry.
Regarding sin: there is a variety of suffering that is generated by mindless biological processes, such as mutations that wreak havoc on newborns. This suffering is a result of the tools of creation God chose, not our sin (as it is not the result of humans inflicting suffering upon one another). This type of suffering cannot be accounted for by sin-based explanations such as the one you offer in your second paragraph, as the processes generating it are antecedent to such sin (that is, these processes existed long before we did, and thus before our sin did).
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The question regarding evolution via natural selection is directly relevant to the OP's question because it is a variation on the problem of evil, or, the problem of why God seems to allow such suffering and misery-inducing events to occur uninhibited.
The answer is not in the Bible, or else the Christian apologists could point to it and be done. Instead, there is a centuries old debate. The most sophisticated work on the problem came out of the toiling of the Catholics during the Medieval period and was generated from philosophical reflection, not searching for quotes in the Bible.
Unfortunately, the answer you've provided here is not an answer at all: it reduces to the phrase, 'God works in mysterious ways.' It is a recommendation to entirely ignore a problem and pretend it isn't there, while still maintaining one's belief. It is also extremely questionable because the rest of God's apparent plan is entirely intelligible. Why would his handling of suffering suddenly become incomprehensible to us? The need for 'mystery' only appears when an apparent logical contradiction is at hand.
Would you forgive, say, a scientist for such a thing? Imagine that a scientist's theory on the origins of the universe is fully fleshed out, but when an inconsistency arises, he says, "You must believe me all the same; the universe works in mysterious ways," with that being his only answer in response to critics pointing the inconsistency out. This is a copout and a non-explanation whose only purpose is to paper over theoretical difficulties, both for a scientific theory and a religious one (like Christianity). It is a totally unacceptable move to make in any sort of intellectual inquiry.
Regarding sin: there is a variety of suffering that is generated by mindless biological processes, such as mutations that wreak havoc on newborns. This suffering is a result of the tools of creation God chose, not our sin (as it is not the result of humans inflicting suffering upon one another). This type of suffering cannot be accounted for by sin-based explanations such as the one you offer in your second paragraph, as the processes generating it are antecedent to such sin (that is, these processes existed long before we did, and thus before our sin did).
I believe the bible answers the question about why this vile thing happened to this 10 year old, you obviously do not! So, for the sake of avoiding redundancy let's just leave it there. I do have a question for you; how do we as humans eradicate this problem?
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1. God doesn't give a shit.
2. God is powerless to stop it.
3. God doesn't exist.
Only 3 answers to this question. Logically and philosophically.
God has empowered us to act accordingly and has entrusted his creation to us....I would think God may ask us why we haven't done anything to prevent it.
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I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people. What a vile fucking world. God, lol... ::)
32-pound, 10-year-old found locked in Mo. closet
http://news.yahoo.com/32-pound-10-old-found-locked-mo-closet-001500033.html
Easy Answer... There IS NOT A GOD.
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if we act like idiots its not god fault
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Which problem in particular, HM?
Mankind's inhumanity toward mankind, e.g. this woman locking her own child in a closet or that young couple tortured and murdered by those savages, one poster pointed out.
I ask you, how can we stop this type of behavior and countless other inhumanities from happening that have plagued mankind since the begining? I don't think we can because of what the bible says about our human nature as stated in Romans 3:10-18; I see no other logical explanation for the way we treat one another, myself included.
Man I look back on my life and I can't believe some of the things I've done or said to others but once God changed the way I see him, I see people and everything else under the sun differently now! I can't explain the transformation and I still struggle with many things but little by little I am changing for the better. Maybe having a wonderful woman by my side and awesome kids caused me to think of others more than myself. Who knows?
HM
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if we act like idiots its not god fault
He made us. He knew that we would do all we do before hand, but he still made Hitler, Mao Zedong, Stalin, Manson, etc.
If you were about to make a robot, and you KNEW it would kill millions of people, would you still make it?
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if we act like idiots its not god fault
If god acts like a tyrannical psychopath is it our fault?
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If god acts like a tyrannical psychopath is it our fault?
Nope. It is not.
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I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people. What a vile fucking world. God, lol... ::)
32-pound, 10-year-old found locked in Mo. closet
http://news.yahoo.com/32-pound-10-old-found-locked-mo-closet-001500033.html
Since we can easily surmise that you do not believe in any deity the real question you should be posing is this, my friend.
How can a people, a nation, a world, suffer dross the likes of this to live? Liberalism in the form of "It's not the fault of the criminal, but rather the fault of society".
In other words, look not to the God, gods or what ever you wish to name in the name of making your point to act, instead look around you at those we all have elected to do our will but instead do their whim. If we push aside morality because it comes from God, then we are left with immorality which comes from man.
It is a sad fact that so many people desire immortality and yet settle for immorality. The zeitgeist of this world needs to change and change for the better. It is not the fault of any deity, but that of mankind in general.
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I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people. What a vile fucking world. God, lol... ::)
32-pound, 10-year-old found locked in Mo. closet
http://news.yahoo.com/32-pound-10-old-found-locked-mo-closet-001500033.html
Take a look at the vid I posted, may make you think about "God" and the "The devil" in a diff light---explaining things.
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Mankind's inhumanity toward mankind, e.g. this woman locking her own child in a closet or that young couple tortured and murdered by those savages, one poster pointed out.
I ask you, how can we stop this type of behavior and countless other inhumanities from happening that have plagued mankind since the begining? I don't think we can because of what the bible says about our human nature as stated in Romans 3:10-18; I see no other logical explanation for the way we treat one another, myself included.
HM
"Mankind's inhumanity" towards its fellow members is easily explained by the fact that we are primates. All of this animal-like behavior is perfectly explicable, given the fact that we share 90%+ of our genes with those animals at the zoo that excitedly throw their shit at us! Behavioral tendencies (in the form of statistical regularities) are derived from the species' gene pool.
Your seeing no other logical explanation for the behavioral tendencies of the species than the Bible's is simply a failure of imagination on your part. Anyone who has studied logic (including myself) begs to disagree that the Bible has the only "logical" answer.
Still, in some sense you are right that our behavior is not liable to change. We can ameliorate it by educating people and culturally indoctrinating them into less harmful ways of behaving, but permanent change will not occur unless the gene pool all these behaviors spring from is modified -- either via evolution, or via some futuristic gene therapy.
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syntaxmachine, I can appreciate what you are saying if the original question asked was about evolution. Let me refresh your memory;
If there is a god, how in the freaking hell can he let shit like this happen?
. I simply offered what I thought would be a good answer from a biblical perspective since he asked a biblical question. You believe "Mankind's inhumanity" towards its fellow members is easily explained by the fact that we are primates.
Maybe you could have answered his question by simply stating; there is no god and this shit happens because, we are primates and excitedly throw our shit at or shit on each other. Oh and good luck with ameliorating this problem by educating people animals and culturally indoctrinating them into less harmful ways of behaving. Planet of the Apes ::) Too much TV for you my friend you should read the book of Ecclesiastes; a logical man like yourself just might enjoy what Solomon has to say, "...vanity of vanities; all is vanity."
HM
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syntaxmachine, I can appreciate what you are saying if the original question asked was about evolution. Let me refresh your memory; . I simply offered what I thought would be a good answer from a biblical perspective since he asked a biblical question. You believe Maybe you could have answered his question by simply stating; there is no god and this shit happens because, we are primates and excitedly throw our shit at or shit on each other. Oh and good luck with ameliorating this problem by educating people animals and culturally indoctrinating them into less harmful ways of behaving. Planet of the Apes ::) Too much TV for you my friend you should read the book of Ecclesiastes; a logical man like yourself just might enjoy what Solomon has to say, "...vanity of vanities; all is vanity."
HM
The problem is, what do you expect, that life is always a bowl of cherries, and that we go around singing the Smurfette "La La" song? Look at life on this planet, a constant struggle for survival. Man can, and I believe will change it's path and how it treats one another, but it must be a concerted effort to do so...The fact is, that there is no one, no group that tries to be a standard bearer when it comes to truly exemplifiying "the Way"
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syntaxmachine, I can appreciate what you are saying if the original question asked was about evolution. Let me refresh your memory; . I simply offered what I thought would be a good answer from a biblical perspective since he asked a biblical question. You believe Maybe you could have answered his question by simply stating; there is no god and this shit happens because, we are primates and excitedly throw our shit at or shit on each other. Oh and good luck with ameliorating this problem by educating people animals and culturally indoctrinating them into less harmful ways of behaving. Planet of the Apes ::) Too much TV for you my friend you should read the book of Ecclesiastes; a logical man like yourself just might enjoy what Solomon has to say, "...vanity of vanities; all is vanity."
HM
You asked why humanity is so inhumane. I offered an explanation in evolutionary terms, given that evolution is true. You said your explanation was the only "logical" one, which I indicated was false. Given these facts I'm doubtful my words can genuinely be construed as off-topic. Also, I never suggested that education would ultimately be successful in changing humanity's ways; in fact, I explicitly said you were right that human behavior was "not liable to change." Your silliness in suggesting I watch too much TV (I don't watch any) is thus totally off base.
Also, thanks for the book recommendation but I've already read Ecclesiastes and formalized it into first-order logic, where a statement like "He that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow" becomes
'∀x[(Px & Ixk)→Ixs]', where P=is a person, Ixy= x increases y, k=knowledge, and s=sorrow.
Given this it is ironic that you're telling me this is a book I need to read as a 'logical man'! It is my favorite book of KJV, so at least we can agree on something (i.e., that the book is good).
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Oh no you did'nt use first-order logic on me! You want to impress me, formalize this "Someone loves himself"? BTW I did not say you "need" to read Ecclesiastes, I simply suggested you should read it. I know what I am about to say will start another dead end debate but here goes, I do not think humans are animals at least not in the way you define the relationship beteween humans and animals. I will say this, it would probably be cool to have a Q & A session with you on various topics.
Wait I have a question for you (the evolutionist); do you think people like the woman that did this terrible thing to her own child or anyone who commits an inhumane act against another human, e.g., murderers and rapist are less evolved than you?
HM
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Oh no you did'nt use first-order logic on me! You want to impress me, formalize this "Someone loves himself"? BTW I did not say you "need" to read Ecclesiastes, I simply suggested you should read it. I know what I am about to say will start another dead end debate but here goes, I do not think humans are animals at least not in the way you define the relationship beteween humans and animals. I will say this, it would probably be cool to have a Q & A session with you on various topics.
Wait I have a question for you (the evolutionist); do you think people like the woman that did this terrible thing to her own child or anyone who commits an inhumane act against another human, e.g., murderers and rapist are less evolved than you?
HM
I want to play... The "you should read..." statement is usually made by someone who thinks that the only reason I don't share their personal belief is because I don't have the information. Many times when a Christian says "You should read.." I already have... In fact, I have read many christian apologetics books recommended to me over the years, yet I have not had any Christian read any book I have recommended. I usually get the "No thanks, I believe the bible and if the book infers the bible isn't true, I'm not interested. "
I don't think the mother is less evolved, I think people who do horrific acts can have various reasons behind it. They could have been brought up in a horrible enviornment and learned the behavior or been mentally damaged by abuse as a child. I also think that with millions of people being born into this world, there will be genetic errors, causing some to be born without conscience, wired in such a way that they are predatory or just down right cruel. I think we will always have a certain percentage of our population this way.
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I want to play... The "you should read..." statement is usually made by someone who thinks that the only reason I don't share their personal belief is because I don't have the information. Many times when a Christian says "You should read.." I already have... In fact, I have read many christian apologetics books recommended to me over the years, yet I have not had any Christian read any book I have recommended. I usually get the "No thanks, I believe the bible and if the book infers the bible isn't true, I'm not interested. "
I don't think the mother is less evolved, I think people who do horrific acts can have various reasons behind it. They could have been brought up in a horrible enviornment and learned the behavior or been mentally damaged by abuse as a child. I also think that with millions of people being born into this world, there will be genetic errors, causing some to be born without conscience, wired in such a way that they are predatory or just down right cruel. I think we will always have a certain percentage of our population this way.
Which apologetic works have you read? Suggestions?
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Which apologetic works have you read? Suggestions?
As a christian I read Josh McDowel's Evidence that Demands a Verdict as well as the skeptics version The Jury is In
I've also read his More Than a Carpenter
Lee Strobel's Case for Christ
Reasonable Faith by William Craig
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
There are several more but they all tend to run together over the years.
As far as books to recommend, I stopped doing that a couple years ago. First, they are rarely ever read and second, it's pointless if you aren't open minded. I only read them as a Christian because I was curious and probably had some questions that I wasn't getting very good answers on. Then, as an agnostic because I was concerned I may have made a mistake that I would pay for eternally and I wanted to be sure. Had someone recommended them to be when I was younger or "strong in the faith" , I would have also blown them off or read them with a bias that would allow me to discount the information quite easily. But if someone asks me how I went from being a very committed christian to a non believer, I point them to a book by Dan Barker called Losing Faith in Faith and suggest they read that, as he explains it much better than I do. I would also warn them that Barker writes with a chip on his shoulder in that book and pulls no punches which can be a turn off, but the general message is similar to my story.
I remember my brother, who is a very active christian and actually walks to walk saw that particular book on my coffee table a few years ago. He picked it up and read the back cover. He then tossed it back on the table and stated "Well, that books full of crap, he says miracles don't happen and I know they do". So someone like him reading that book would be a complete waste of time.
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God couldn't be bothered to help out there. He has been too busy creating a tornado to be used to punish the queers. Which he then sends it to the Bible belt to do so.
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As a christian I read Josh McDowel's Evidence that Demands a Verdict as well as the skeptics version The Jury is In
I've also read his More Than a Carpenter
Lee Strobel's Case for Christ
Reasonable Faith by William Craig
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
There are several more but they all tend to run together over the years.
As far as books to recommend, I stopped doing that a couple years ago. First, they are rarely ever read and second, it's pointless if you aren't open minded. I only read them as a Christian because I was curious and probably had some questions that I wasn't getting very good answers on. Then, as an agnostic because I was concerned I may have made a mistake that I would pay for eternally and I wanted to be sure. Had someone recommended them to be when I was younger or "strong in the faith" , I would have also blown them off or read them with a bias that would allow me to discount the information quite easily. But if someone asks me how I went from being a very committed christian to a non believer, I point them to a book by Dan Barker called Losing Faith in Faith and suggest they read that, as he explains it much better than I do. I would also warn them that Barker writes with a chip on his shoulder in that book and pulls no punches which can be a turn off, but the general message is similar to my story.
I remember my brother, who is a very active christian and actually walks to walk saw that particular book on my coffee table a few years ago. He picked it up and read the back cover. He then tossed it back on the table and stated "Well, that books full of crap, he says miracles don't happen and I know they do". So someone like him reading that book would be a complete waste of time.
I suppose when a believer has truly experienced the Holy Spirit in their life and that experience has truly changed their life in a wonderful way reading entire volumes on why God doesn't exist isn't helpful in anyway (so I'd agree with you). Believers are called to act and represent Christ while nonbelievers are not (that's the primary disconnect). Now, reading books authorred by aths & ags can be a great way to understand the opposing view, but for the believer that has experienced the risen Christ it won't give them a reason to turn from their faith. It's a unique position for those folks. I've known many folks that call themselves Christians, but never lived out their faith....never represented Christ....never shared with others. Later in life they walk away from their faith and tell others what a waste faith in Christ was. Faith in Christ is no easy business, if it was "everyone would do it". Some say, "it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a Christian". I respectfully disagree...our lives can easily be lived without Christ or any Christian influence. The vast majority in the world support the nonbelievers' perspective....it's quite easy to join the majority. It's much more challenging to have faith in Christ, but when you truly engage in your faith, when you truly surrender, when you truly experience Christ it makes all the difference. Then the books telling you you're foolish really don't offer anything more than a brief chuckle, but that doesn't mean they aren't worth reading. I learn a ton from aths and ags. They give me things to consider and usually help me grow my faith as I seek answers to their questions....it's a funny situation (at least for me).
Josh McDowell I haven't read.
I've read most of Strobel's books (haven't read his Easter book...thinks that's all I haven't read).
I'm in the middle of "Reasonable Faith". Some of the mathematical proofs leave me a bit flat to be honest, but others parts are brilliant.
I've read the majority of Paul Copan's books (I think I've missed 2).
I've started "Mere Christianity", but was more engaged in "The Screwtape Letters".
I've read the bible which includes the works by the world's greatest apologist Paul LOL.
I've read numerous online articles.
I've read others short apolgetic books as well (RC Sproul, Billy Graham, etc...)
To be honest, I've glossed numerous ath and ag books and read many, many online articles. I listen to online debates (Aths/Ags v Chrisitian) all the time. I watch the Atheist Experience online all the time (based out of Austin, TX) lead by Matt Dillahunty. I've read David Hume. I watch Ath and Ag lectures. Personally I'd rather deep dive into a volume that will expand my faith, but get the cliffs notes version on the other or the 1-2 hour lecture or 30 minute online article that summarizes.
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I want to play... The "you should read..." statement is usually made by someone who thinks that the only reason I don't share their personal belief is because I don't have the information. Many times when a Christian says "You should read.." I already have... In fact, I have read many christian apologetics books recommended to me over the years, yet I have not had any Christian read any book I have recommended. I usually get the "No thanks, I believe the bible and if the book infers the bible isn't true, I'm not interested. "
I don't think the mother is less evolved, I think people who do horrific acts can have various reasons behind it. They could have been brought up in a horrible enviornment and learned the behavior or been mentally damaged by abuse as a child. I also think that with millions of people being born into this world, there will be genetic errors, causing some to be born without conscience, wired in such a way that they are predatory or just down right cruel. I think we will always have a certain percentage of our population this way.
You are correct I should have asked if he had read Ecclesiastes before suggesting he should read it, so no argument there. I'm not the type of person to debate something and not be open to hear or read my opposition's point of view and where it originated, that is only fair. The topic of the thread was, "if God exist and how/why God allowed this to happen". I referenced verses in the Bible that could be used to explain how/why a person would act inhumanely toward another person. BTW I don't think the woman is less evolved either, I think what you call a "horrible environment or mentally damaged or genetic errors" are the result of being cursed by sin. I agree with you that any one of those issues you cited could cause of the behavior but I believe that sin leads to the behavior.
I also think these verses in the bible would support and justify the comment you made that, ”… some to be born without conscience, wired in such a way that they are predatory or just downright cruel. I think we will always have a certain percentage of our population this way."
Psalm 58:3, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Isaiah 64:6 and Jeremiah 17:9
HM
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Wait I have a question for you (the evolutionist); do you think people like the woman that did this terrible thing to her own child or anyone who commits an inhumane act against another human, e.g., murderers and rapist are less evolved than you?
HM
No, I do not think the woman under discussion or anyone else that does things I consider abhorrent are "less evolved." But a more specific answer depends on what we mean by 'more' or 'less' evolved.
A common interpretation implies that there is directionality or inherent progress to evolution; that there is some end-goal or proper evolved form we are trying to reach, and those of us "more evolved" are closer to that form. But this is false. If evolutionary pressures are strong enough we may become simpler life forms again; there is nothing "necessary" about our evolutionary path, nor is there any optimal form at the end of the line that evolution is moving toward. We evolve a proper fit to ecological niches, and that is it. In this sense there is no meaning in saying any of us is "more evolved" than someone else, the Archaea at the bottom of the ocean, or anything really.
If by 'more evolved' you simply mean more complex (genetically speaking), then I am still not more evolved than the woman; we derive from the same pool of genes. She isn't from some isolated set of breeding such that we don't share genes, and neither am I. So even in this sense I fail to be more evolved than her.
In short, if I use evolutionary thinking at all to understand this woman's behavior, it will not involve judgments of her being 'more' or 'less' evolved. These don't make sense given a proper understanding of evolution.
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Oh no you did'nt use first-order logic on me! You want to impress me, formalize this "Someone loves himself"? BTW I did not say you "need" to read Ecclesiastes, I simply suggested you should read it. I know what I am about to say will start another dead end debate but here goes, I do not think humans are animals at least not in the way you define the relationship beteween humans and animals. I will say this, it would probably be cool to have a Q & A session with you on various topics.
HM
Well, I'd like to know why you disagree, not just that you do. Regarding our being human organisms (animals), I think there is little room for disagreement. Every time you look in the mirror, there is a thing looking back at you. This thing is a human organism. The dated fossils lay bare its evolutionary history, the fact that it derives from the same species apes derive from. Among other irrefutable facts, its genome displays significant similarities with such apes, further evincing their shared heritage.
So, right where you are now, is a human organism that evolved from a common ancestor with apes. When you are sitting in your chair and thinking, there is a human organism right there thinking with its brain as well. It seems an awful lot like all of the properties of the animal are properties of yours as well: you are a certain number of years old just like the animal, you occupy the exact same spatiotemporal boundaries as the animal, you have a brain that enables you to think just like the animal does, you jump when fire burns you just like the animal does, and so on. Well, if it walks like an animal, talks like an animal, and literally has all the same properties of an animal, then my guess is it is an animal.
What else would you say we were, if not the animals we see in the mirror? How would you explain our relation to these animals?
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There has never been a valid argument proving, providing evidence for, suggesting or even supporting belief in a "God" or a "Deity" or "gods" or any supernatural entity.
Does God exist? As likely as the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.
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There has never been a valid argument proving, providing evidence for, suggesting or even supporting belief in a "God" or a "Deity" or "gods" or any supernatural entity.
Does God exist? As likely as the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.
Well that takes care of that...let's delete this board.
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You are correct I should have asked if he had read Ecclesiastes before suggesting he should read it, so no argument there. I'm not the type of person to debate something and not be open to hear or read my opposition's point of view and where it originated, that is only fair. The topic of the thread was, "if God exist and how/why God allowed this to happen". I referenced verses in the Bible that could be used to explain how/why a person would act inhumanely toward another person. BTW I don't think the woman is less evolved either, I think what you call a "horrible environment or mentally damaged or genetic errors" are the result of being cursed by sin. I agree with you that any one of those issues you cited could cause of the behavior but I believe that sin leads to the behavior.
I also think these verses in the bible would support and justify the comment you made that, ”… some to be born without conscience, wired in such a way that they are predatory or just downright cruel. I think we will always have a certain percentage of our population this way."
Psalm 58:3, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Isaiah 64:6 and Jeremiah 17:9
HM
It's cool that you can make a connection between your belief, and the book of your belief and what you observe in our actions. I simply do not see the need to add a supernatural god cause into the mix to come to the conclusion some people are born bad or are conditioned to be bad.
The concept of original sin, in my opinion is faulty. That an alleged righteous god/parent would hold me accountable for something that happened "6000" years ago, something he KNEW would happen a trillion years before it occured strikes me as a faulty system if "righteous" and "fair" are part of your criteria...
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Well, I'd like to know why you disagree, not just that you do. Regarding our being human organisms (animals), I think there is little room for disagreement.
Well, we have a larger brain with respect to our individual body size, we are capable of reasoning, spoken & written language, introspection, problem solving and culture. Animals do not possess these attributes as they are creatures of instinct. Also I don't think humans can reproduce with animals (Chimps). Some of humans act like animals but are not the same species.
II Peter 2:9-13 one of the few places that God talks about the differences between how false teachers will perish like "...unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish."
What else would you say we were, if not the animals we see in the mirror? How would you explain our relation to these animals?
I see a man, a man made in the image of God:
Genesis 1:26 (ESV)
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Animals do not have dominion over anything atleast not in the way that humans have dominion.
HM
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It's cool that you can make a connection between your belief, and the book of your belief and what you observe in our actions. I simply do not see the need to add a supernatural god cause into the mix to come to the conclusion some people are born bad or are conditioned to be bad.
The concept of original sin, in my opinion is faulty. That an alleged righteous god/parent would hold me accountable for something that happened "6000" years ago, something he KNEW would happen a trillion years before it occured strikes me as a faulty system if "righteous" and "fair" are part of your criteria...
Pot, Kettle brother; you draw the same connection with your belief and the many books of your belief and what you observe in our actions as I do. You see our existence from a different perspective that's it. You cannot disprove a creator (whom I call God, Jesus and Holy Spirit) and I cannot disprove how all this came into existencewhich you call evolution. There is one thing we can agree on, one thing we know without dispute and that is; we are both living on a planet that is perfectly situated in this time and space and is suitable for us to have life. Other than that we only have theories!
HM
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Pot, Kettle brother; you draw the same connection with your belief and the many books of your belief and what you observe in our actions as I do. You see our existence from a different perspective that's it. You cannot disprove a creator (whom I call God, Jesus and Holy Spirit) and I cannot disprove how all this came into existencewhich you call evolution. There is one thing we can agree on, one thing we know without dispute and that is; we are both living on a planet that is perfectly situated in this time and space and is suitable for us to have life. Other than that we only have theories!
HM
I try to go by the "what is more likely" philosophy, and in my personal opinion, having read the bible several times, I have to go with what the majority of scientists think happened, with the understanding that they have the option of changing their positions as new evidence is uncovered. I just don't think your average evangelist shares that same option.
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Pot, Kettle brother; you draw the same connection with your belief and the many books of your belief and what you observe in our actions as I do. You see our existence from a different perspective that's it. You cannot disprove a creator (whom I call God, Jesus and Holy Spirit) and I cannot disprove how all this came into existencewhich you call evolution. There is one thing we can agree on, one thing we know without dispute and that is; we are both living on a planet that is perfectly situated in this time and space and is suitable for us to have life. Other than that we only have theories!
HM
Hustle Man, theories isn't the "PC" term....scientists prefer "inevitable facts".
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God doesnt control everything. He created us,and told us how to be happy and live long, and that ultimately all good people will meet him, while others will be damned for what they ve done with their existence.
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I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people. What a vile fucking world. God, lol... ::)
32-pound, 10-year-old found locked in Mo. closet
http://news.yahoo.com/32-pound-10-old-found-locked-mo-closet-001500033.html
1) There is NO GOD - get over it
2) The Mother and her boyfriend are genuine psychopaths
3) Where the fuck is the Father?
4) Contrary to popular belief - the world isn't JUST (although ironically it is psychologically more beneficial to believe in a JUST WORLD even though it is a false belief)
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Why does God punish Haiti and places like that with natural disasters because of America's Tolerance of Homosexuality?