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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: howardroark on August 15, 2012, 03:43:10 PM

Title: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: howardroark on August 15, 2012, 03:43:10 PM
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/311928_477227162287640_513081906_n.jpg)

But Paul Ryan is a radical...  ::)
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: whork on August 16, 2012, 03:20:43 AM
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/311928_477227162287640_513081906_n.jpg)

But Paul Ryan is a radical...  ::)

So you point is Ryan is gonna make it tougher on the middle class and make the ultra rich richer and the difference is app 3 trillion$?
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: tonymctones on August 16, 2012, 04:15:10 AM
So you point is Ryan is gonna make it tougher on the middle class and make the ultra rich richer and the difference is app 3 trillion$?
what makes you think that?

you know obamas tax plan will cut 700K jobs from the US, right?

you know obama has implemented many middle class tax hikes through obamacare, right?

so tell us how ryan is going to make it harder on the middle class?
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: blacken700 on August 16, 2012, 04:21:57 AM
So you point is Ryan is gonna make it tougher on the middle class and make the ultra rich richer and the difference is app 3 trillion$?


sounds about right ;D
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Fury on August 16, 2012, 04:50:09 AM

sounds about right ;D

Not even 8 AM EST and you have nothing better to do than talk to yourself.  :-\
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: whork on August 16, 2012, 04:55:48 AM
what makes you think that?

you know obamas tax plan will cut 700K jobs from the US, right?

you know obama has implemented many middle class tax hikes through obamacare, right?

so tell us how ryan is going to make it harder on the middle class?

I dont know anybody who's taxes has been raised.

And even if they did we got 30 million people insured so..

Unlike the shit the GOP uses its money on, tax breaks for the wealthy, wars etc etc..
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: whork on August 16, 2012, 04:57:16 AM
Not even 8 AM EST and you have nothing better to do than talk to yourself.  :-\

NO thats your job
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: 240 is Back on August 16, 2012, 05:28:14 AM
Wow.... when we compared palin and obama, the classic get response was "She's running for veep, this comparison is irrelevant", remember?  :)
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Fury on August 16, 2012, 05:33:48 AM
Wow.... when we compared palin and obama, the classic get response was "She's running for veep, this comparison is irrelevant", remember?  :)

So you'll log as many posts defending Ryan as you do Obama, right? I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: 240 is Back on August 16, 2012, 05:37:40 AM
So you'll log as many posts defending Ryan as you do Obama, right? I won't hold my breath.

I think Ryan would be a great president.  You can ask me anything about Ryan, i'll give my opinion. 

I believe obama was born in a foreign country and is pres illegally.
I believe Ryan actually has the legal right to be president.

Ryan has been a 'yes man' in congress - supported all the shit the repub president told him to support.  he's a brown noser, but that's what it takes to become the squeaky clean VEEP choice.  Had he been a renegade, he wouldn't be the pick right now.  Romney's surrounded himself with "Yes men" for 25 years of Bain + 10 years of running.   Ryan is the perfect choice - and very smart and qualified.

Ryan's fail comes when he tries to make jokes, or tries to be tough.  Needs to avoid those two.  Making jokes about protesters, he looks like a dork.  Trying to puff up, he's 163 pounds at 6 foot 2, laughable.  but smart as a whip - you betcha.  Can speak policy like none of the other 3 on tickets.  Great pick.  let me konw anything you want my opinion on, i like ryan a lot.
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: tonymctones on August 16, 2012, 05:20:02 PM
I dont know anybody who's taxes has been raised.

And even if they did we got 30 million people insured so..

Unlike the shit the GOP uses its money on, tax breaks for the wealthy, wars etc etc..

well seeing as you havent seen it I guess it must be true... ::)

tell us again specifically how ryans plan is going to hurt the middle class?
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Kazan on August 16, 2012, 07:05:28 PM
I dont know anybody who's taxes has been raised.

And even if they did we got 30 million people insured so..

Unlike the shit the GOP uses its money on, tax breaks for the wealthy, wars etc etc..


Do I have explain to you the constitutional obligations for the Federal Government again?
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: tu_holmes on August 16, 2012, 07:09:07 PM
well seeing as you havent seen it I guess it must be true... ::)

tell us again specifically how ryans plan is going to hurt the middle class?

Have your taxes gone up Tony?
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Soul Crusher on August 16, 2012, 07:12:51 PM
Have your taxes gone up Tony?

Obamas inflation tax has slammed everyone. 
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: tu_holmes on August 16, 2012, 07:15:03 PM
Obamas inflation tax has slammed everyone. 

How much has inflation gone up since Jan of 2009?


Funny how the largest spikes on this chart are during "Republican Presidencies".


(http://inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Annual_Inflation/Annual_Inflation_chart.jpg)
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Soul Crusher on August 16, 2012, 07:18:04 PM
How much has inflation gone up since Jan of 2009?


Funny how the largest spikes on this chart are during "Republican Presidencies".


(http://inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Annual_Inflation/Annual_Inflation_chart.jpg)

Health care
Food
Energy


Which are not weighted in the CPI are skyrocketing due to policies of this admn.
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: 240 is Back on August 16, 2012, 07:19:01 PM
Ryan isn't running against obama.   Just as all obama/palin comparisons were naught.
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Kazan on August 16, 2012, 07:19:29 PM
Just got back from the store - gas $4.19/ga
Food prices up spend between $30 and $40 more

Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: howardroark on August 17, 2012, 12:33:35 AM
So you point is Ryan is gonna make it tougher on the middle class and make the ultra rich richer and the difference is app 3 trillion$?

The point is that Paul Ryan isn't a hardcore budget cutter - but rather someone who has proposed to slow the outrageous growth of government.
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: outby43 on August 17, 2012, 01:02:40 AM
The point is that Paul Ryan isn't a hardcore budget cutter - but rather someone who has proposed to slow the outrageous growth of government.

So what makes him better than say Ron Paul on principles and cutting the growth of government?  The Repubs had their man ready to step in and do the work that needed to be done but they deemed him not electable.   ::)
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: howardroark on August 17, 2012, 01:31:40 AM
So what makes him better than say Ron Paul on principles and cutting the growth of government?  The Repubs had their man ready to step in and do the work that needed to be done but they deemed him not electable.   ::)

He's not any better than Ron Paul. Ron Paul is faaaaar better because he actually CUTS government, whereas the Paul Ryan Plan qualifies as simply the lesser of two evils. That said, Paul Ryan does deserve some credit for dealing with entitlement spending.

The two points I intended to get across with this thread:
1. Romney/Ryan aren't our salvation. Their plans are extremely deficient in pro-growth and deficit reduction policies.
2. Romney/Ryan aren't radical as Obama makes them out to be. They are simply very moderate reformers of the Obama Plan. (The Obama Plan, BTW, literally NEVER balances the budget.)
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Soul Crusher on August 17, 2012, 02:52:52 AM
He's not any better than Ron Paul. Ron Paul is faaaaar better because he actually CUTS government, whereas the Paul Ryan Plan qualifies as simply the lesser of two evils. That said, Paul Ryan does deserve some credit for dealing with entitlement spending.

The two points I intended to get across with this thread:
1. Romney/Ryan aren't our salvation. Their plans are extremely deficient in pro-growth and deficit reduction policies.
2. Romney/Ryan aren't radical as Obama makes them out to be. They are simply very moderate reformers of the Obama Plan. (The Obama Plan, BTW, literally NEVER balances the budget.)


Ron Paul is not on the ballot.
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: whork on August 17, 2012, 05:19:46 AM
He's not any better than Ron Paul. Ron Paul is faaaaar better because he actually CUTS government, whereas the Paul Ryan Plan qualifies as simply the lesser of two evils. That said, Paul Ryan does deserve some credit for dealing with entitlement spending.

The two points I intended to get across with this thread:
1. Romney/Ryan aren't our salvation. Their plans are extremely deficient in pro-growth and deficit reduction policies.
2. Romney/Ryan aren't radical as Obama makes them out to be. They are simply very moderate reformers of the Obama Plan. (The Obama Plan, BTW, literally NEVER balances the budget.)

How would you promote growth? Lower taxes?
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Kazan on August 17, 2012, 06:13:19 AM
How would you promote growth? Lower taxes?

First either eliminate or restrict back to their original intent the numerous alphabet agencies. You see I have a problem with a bunch of unelected appointy's  making US policy
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: whork on August 17, 2012, 06:46:19 AM
First either eliminate or restrict back to their original intent the numerous alphabet agencies. You see I have a problem with a bunch of unelected appointy's  making US policy

We all do.
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: howardroark on August 17, 2012, 07:58:49 AM
How would you promote growth? Lower taxes?


Among other things. But government spending has to be reduced by more than taxes are cut.
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Straw Man on August 17, 2012, 08:10:10 AM
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/311928_477227162287640_513081906_n.jpg)

But Paul Ryan is a radical...  ::)

wow a whopping 300 billion a year

and all he had to do was give a tax break to billionares and take away medicare and other social safety nets

I'm sure the American people will get on board for this

He just needs to fill in the details so they understand exactly who will get the most benefit and exactly who will pay for it

I think once the American people understand that Ryan wants people like himself and his running mate to pay zero taxes on capital gain and make up for that lost revenue by taking away medicare then they will be all for it


Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: howardroark on August 17, 2012, 08:17:09 AM
wow a whopping 300 billion a year

and all he had to do was give a tax break to billionares and take away medicare and other social safety nets

I'm sure the American people will get on board for this

He just needs to fill in the details so they understand exactly who will get the most benefit and exactly who will pay for it

I think once the American people understand that Ryan wants people like himself and his running mate to pay zero taxes on capital gain and make up for that lost revenue by taking away medicare then they will be all for it

Can you go a single day without saying a single lie?

There won't be a social safety net if the programs aren't reformed. Romney/Ryan do that - Obama doesn't. The capital gains tax cuts in the Romney Plan go toward those earning less than $250,000 - not billionaires or millionaires. Also, most Americans agree that the highest effective tax rate should be 25% - while Obama wants to raise the top tax rate to close to 40%.
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Straw Man on August 17, 2012, 08:29:04 AM
Can you go a single day without saying a single lie?

There won't be a social safety net if the programs aren't reformed. Romney/Ryan do that - Obama doesn't. The capital gains tax cuts in the Romney Plan go toward those earning less than $250,000 - not billionaires or millionaires. Also, most Americans agree that the highest effective tax rate should be 25% - while Obama wants to raise the top tax rate to close to 40%.

why are you refering to the Romney plan when your chart compares Obama and Ryan

Ryans original budget include a near zero tax rate on capital gains and dividend and although he's since changed that (hmmm - I wonder why) he hasn't provided much details on where the cuts in spending would come from or who would benefit the most from tax cuts.   Those details are something he'll work out later and I suspect, if given the opportunity, he would go right back to his original budget which makes passive investment income virtually tax free and basically eliminates medicare for people over 55   
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: howardroark on August 17, 2012, 08:40:55 AM
why are you refering to the Romney plan when your chart compares Obama and Ryan

Because that's what the election is about - and because the chart should be nearly similar for the Romney Plan, which commits to many of the same reforms and spending growth rate reductions.

Quote
Ryans original budget include a near zero tax rate on capital gains and dividend

Which would be a great blessing for economic growth...

Quote
and although he's since changed that (hmmm - I wonder why) he hasn't provided much details on where the cuts in spending would come from

His plan balances the budget eventually and not quick enough admittedly - BUT it's a plan with enough legislative detail explaining how to balance the budget. Where's Obama's Plan? What taxes does he want to raise? What spending does he want to cut? Obama and the Democrats haven't put any of that on the table - because they know they'd lose the election if they did.

Quote
or who would benefit the most from tax cuts.

I'll give you a hint: those who pay the most in taxes.
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m487/politicalcartoons62/Taxes.jpg)

Quote
   Those details are something he'll work out later and I suspect, if given the opportunity, he would go right back to his original budget which makes passive investment income virtually tax free and basically eliminates medicare for people over 55   

His plan doesn't eliminate Social Security and Medicare - it keeps it the same for seniors on these programs and those soon to be on it, while reforming it to keep it solvent in the future. It's rather funny that just a few days ago you were defending SS/Medicare reforms by saying that they were done when necessary to keep the programs solvent - and now you are against reforming SS/Medicare to keep those programs solvent because, well, those are the talking points coming down from the Obama Administration.
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Straw Man on August 17, 2012, 08:45:25 AM
Because that's what the election is about - and because the chart should be nearly similar for the Romney Plan, which commits to many of the same reforms and spending growth rate reductions.

then show me a chart that compares Romney and Obama

Romney has gone on the record 4 or 5 times this week saying that his plan is similar to Ryan and that his plan is not similar to Ryan

Ryan is on the record saying he doesn't know the difference between the two plans

Neither have filled in the specific details on how they would produce the projected results

At this point all we know is where they hope to arrive but we have no specific details on how they intend to get there
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Soul Crusher on August 17, 2012, 08:51:56 AM
then show me a chart that compares Romney and Obama

Romney has gone on the record 4 or 5 times this week saying that his plan is similar to Ryan and that his plan is not similar to Ryan

Ryan is on the record saying he doesn't know the difference between the two plans

Neither have filled in the specific details on how they would produce the projected results

At this point all we know is where they hope to arrive but we have no specific details on how they intend to get there


Only chart you need to concern yourself with. 
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: howardroark on August 17, 2012, 09:00:01 AM
then show me a chart that compares Romney and Obama

Romney has gone on the record 4 or 5 times this week saying that his plan is similar to Ryan and that his plan is not similar to Ryan

Ryan is on the record saying he doesn't know the difference between the two plans

Neither have filled in the specific details on how they would produce the projected results

At this point all we know is where they hope to arrive but we have no specific details on how they intend to get there

Romney's plan hasn't been put in legislative language so it cannot be scored like the Ryan Plan was. Some of the key differences include that the Romney Plan does away with Medicare cuts while the Ryan Plan incorporates the baseline budget (and therefore Obama's Medicare cuts). Another difference is that the Ryan Plan collapses the tax brackets to 10% and 25%, whereas the Romney Plan keeps all of our current tax brackets but reduces the marginal rates by 20%. In the end, the major changes are the same (reforms to entitlements) so the plans should score similarly.

All of this, of course, is contrasted with Obama's budget - which includes massive tax hikes in the baseline (expiration of Bush tax cuts for EVERYONE) but still literally never balances. Running toward bankruptcy, anyone?
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Straw Man on August 17, 2012, 09:10:47 AM
Romney's plan hasn't been put in legislative language so it cannot be scored like the Ryan Plan was. Some of the key differences include that the Romney Plan does away with Medicare cuts while the Ryan Plan incorporates the baseline budget (and therefore Obama's Medicare cuts). Another difference is that the Ryan Plan collapses the tax brackets to 10% and 25%, whereas the Romney Plan keeps all of our current tax brackets but reduces the marginal rates by 20%. In the end, the major changes are the same (reforms to entitlements) so the plans should score similarly.

All of this, of course, is contrasted with Obama's budget - which includes massive tax hikes in the baseline (expiration of Bush tax cuts for EVERYONE) but still literally never balances. Running toward bankruptcy, anyone?

I would not characterize an approximately 3% tax increase as MASSIVE

I've also said many times that we should let all of the Bush tax cuts expire

They were a bad idea that just put us deeper in a financial hole and did nothing to help the economy

They belong to Bush and not Obama

Let them expire and  then Dems and Repubs can work together to create a new tax cut plan if thats what they want to do
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: 240 is Back on August 17, 2012, 09:13:48 AM
Romney has gone on the record 4 or 5 times this week saying that his plan is similar to Ryan and that his plan is not similar to Ryan

Ryan is on the record saying he doesn't know the difference between the two plans


what a fcking embarassment :(
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: howardroark on August 17, 2012, 09:15:41 AM
I would not characterize an approximately 3% tax increase as MASSIVE

I've also said many times that we should let all of the Bush tax cuts expire

They were a bad idea that just put us deeper in a financial hole and did nothing to help the economy

They belong to Bush and not Obama

Let them expire and  then Dems and Repubs can work together to create a new tax cut plan if thats what they want to do

Were the Bush deficits caused by overspending or undertaxation? If you look at the data the answer is clear: in the aftermath of the 2000s recession, tax revenue as a share of GDP jumped above its historical average of 18%, yet the problem was that government spending as a share of GDP was growing at too fast a pace. The problem, thus, wasn't (and isn't) the Bush tax cuts, but rather the Bush-Obama record of overspending.

(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/484117_4048326283212_2062002240_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: Straw Man on August 17, 2012, 09:20:48 AM
Were the Bush deficits caused by overspending or undertaxation? If you look at the data the answer is clear: in the aftermath of the 2000s recession, tax revenue as a share of GDP jumped above its historical average of 18%, yet the problem was that government spending as a share of GDP was growing at too fast a pace. The problem, thus, wasn't (and isn't) the Bush tax cuts, but rather the Bush-Obama record of overspending.

(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/484117_4048326283212_2062002240_n.jpg)

mostly over spending but certainly due in part to the fact that tax revenue went down as well and also greatly exacerbated by the economic downturn (crash) which was in some part due to Bush's policies (Clinton, Dems and Repubs get blame too for deregulating the commodities market)
Title: Re: The "Vast Difference" Between Obama & Paul Ryan
Post by: howardroark on August 17, 2012, 09:27:29 AM
Tax revenue was ABOVE the historic average in 2007. Had Bush and the Republicans been capable of growing government at a slower pace than the economy OR AT LEAST KEEPING GOVERNMENT THE SAME SIZE AS WHEN CLINTON LEFT OFFICE, then the budget would have been balanced and the American people would have had a lower tax bill to boot - a win-win situation.

To make things worse the two competing plans presented to us don't really solve the problem. The Romney/Ryan Plan "slow" government growth to 3% - which likely will be faster than economic growth while the Obama Plan grows government at a faster rate than the Romney/Ryan Plan. Basically, it's a clusterfuck being set up to blame the free market when in reality this will entirely be the failure of government.