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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Man of Steel on December 03, 2012, 12:01:17 PM
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fyi....some comments about Christmas being considered a pagan event.
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Jesus (pbuh) was not born on december 25th. There is no such thing as christmas nor did Jesus ever endorse or tell people to celebrate no such thing. In fact Jesus was angry at the Pharisees Jews for following man made traditions and not God's law. Ironically here we are today. Nor is there anything in scripture advocating this pagan feast. If anything the bible condemns those that bring trees in their houses. Exactly what christmas trees are in practice, a tree brought in a house to 'protect' the home. It's a pagan belief. Trees that have 'spirits' in them, or deities, etc...
It is mixed with pagan beliefs and december 25th relates to pagan ceremonies. Much of the beliefs and practices that so many people engage in during christmas time are pagan in nature. Putting up the sock. Putting up a tree. The star on the tree. The decoration on the door. Santa Clause. Etc...
The gift giving, drinking, sex parties, etc... all things that happen in society on christmas, all related to past activities of pagan romans. Little to do with ANYTHING relating to Jesus (peace be upon him) the prophet of God.
And lastly, ever so popular in capitalism of the west, it is a time of money making extortion of people.
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Pagan Origins
Dating back centuries before Christ, cultures brought evergreen trees, plants, and leaves into their homes upon the arrival of the winter solstice, which occurs in the northern hemisphere between December 21st and 22nd. Although the specific practices were different in each country and culture, the symbolization was generally the same: to celebrate the return of life at the beginning of winter's decline.
(http://www.christmastreehistory.net/images/25p-christmas-tree.png)Egyptians particularly valued evergreens as a symbol of life's victory over death. They brought green date palm leaves into their homes around the time of the winter solstice.
(http://www.christmastreehistory.net/images/25p-christmas-tree.png)Romans had a public festival called Saturnalia, which lasted one week beginning on December 17th, and included a variety of celebrations around the winter solstice. Curiously, the Roman winter solstice was marked on December 25th on the Julian calendar. These celebrations are thought to have merged with pagan practices of hanging mistletoe and the burning of the Yule log.
(http://www.christmastreehistory.net/images/father-christmas.jpg)
(http://www.christmastreehistory.net/images/25p-christmas-tree.png)In Britain, the Yule log was originally seen as a magical amulet, and eventually made it into the hand's of Father Christmas. In Italy the Yule log is still burned for the "Festa di Ceppo". In Catalonia, the log is wrapped in a blanket until Christmas Eve, when it's unwrapped and burned for the custom of "fer cagar el tio". And in Serbia, families bring the Yule log (known as a "badnjak") into their homes on Christmas Eve to be burned along with prayers to God to bring happiness, luck, and riches.
(http://www.christmastreehistory.net/images/25p-christmas-tree.png)Druid priests in Great Britain also used evergreen plants and mistletoe in pagan ceremonies, and the mistletoe plant was the symbol of the birth of a god. Celtic Druids and Norseman of Scandinavia also used mistletoe in a mysterious ceremony just after the winter solstice.
(http://www.christmastreehistory.net/images/25p-christmas-tree.png)In the mid 1500's, Germans began using evergreen trees as a symbol of hope for the coming of spring. This practice is likely to have gradually evolved from pagan rituals of past, and merged with the celebration of Christmas leading to the tree's Christian beginnings.
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Dude its a thread about christmas songs, leave the guy alone FFS ???
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It's the religious section. People should be made aware that Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh).
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The Roman Catholic church chose December 25th to celebrate the birth of Christ in an attempt to subvert the pagan celebrations that annually occurred at or around that same time; in essense, replacing pagan traditions with a celebration of Christ....it took too!
No one knows the exact birthdate of Christ. Some say it was in the spring and others the fall. That said, the church made a strong attempt to establish the annual celebration of Christ's birth in a way that both glorifies our Lord and Savior and symbolically suppresses the evil of men.
The verses in Jeremiah don't refer to Christmas trees....that's a forced fit many employ for the sake of making an argument. The verses refer to those people that fashioned wooden idols and decorated them for purposes of pagan worship. And where does one get wood? From trees in a forest. Christians do not worship Christmas trees.
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Christians do not worship Christmas trees.
This is generally true - notable exceptions are the Rockefeller Center Christmas tree and the Nation's Christmas tree. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Grant_(tree)
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Sex parties? Related to Christmas? Wtf kind of childhood did you have Assmed? No wonder your a fucking fruit loop. Where you get this stuff sometimes all I can do is lol.
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I don't think the Christians really care what Jesus thought.. I give you public prayer as an example. Jesus was against it.. preached against it in Mathew Chapter 5, gave specific instructions that only a moron could screw up, but... 2000 yrs later, Christians are whining about not being able to pray in school, football games etc..... What Jesus thought takes a back seat to Christians need to publicly say "Hey, look at me, Im a Christian"
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Sex parties? Related to Christmas? Wtf kind of childhood did you have Assmed? No wonder your a fucking fruit loop. Where you get this stuff sometimes all I can do is lol.
well you should read up on the history of such things as saturnalia, gift exchanging, fornication, drinking, partying. Not very different from what most people do on christmas and new years.
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Christians should not celebrate christmas we know Jesus would not.
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It's the religious section. People should be made aware that Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh).
Yea, no one can stop you from posting it but then again who can impose decency on people? Thanks for ruining the thread.
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I don't think the Christians really care what Jesus thought.. I give you public prayer as an example. Jesus was against it.. preached against it in Mathew Chapter 5, gave specific instructions that only a moron could screw up, but... 2000 yrs later, Christians are whining about not being able to pray in school, football games etc..... What Jesus thought takes a back seat to Christians need to publicly say "Hey, look at me, Im a Christian"
Actually he spoke about prayer in Matthew chapter 6 and his intent was not to deny public prayer amongst a group of believers altogether. Jesus' point was to pray earnestly, succinctly and honestly and he gave an example of how to do so. A priest or pastor leading a church in prayer is not frowned upon. The direction of the chapter is about not acting selfishly, boastfully or hypocritically, but about acting honestly and selflessly. The example of hypocrites praying publically for show is not about outlawing public prayer, it's about outlawing the intent of the prayer...in Christ's example that was hypocrisy. The chapter as a whole talks about selfless behavior in terms of prayer, fasting, giving, material possessions and eating/drinking.
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Actually he spoke about prayer in Matthew chapter 6 and his intent was not to deny public prayer amongst a group of believers altogether. Jesus' point was to pray earnestly, succinctly and honestly and he gave an example of how to do so. A priest or pastor leading a church in prayer is not frowned upon. The direction of the chapter is about not acting selfishly, boastfully or hypocritically, but about acting honestly and selflessly. The example of hypocrites praying publically for show is not about outlawing public prayer, it's about outlawing the intent of the prayer...in Christ's example that was hypocrisy. The chapter as a whole talks about selfless behavior in terms of prayer, fasting, giving, material possessions and eating/drinking.
oh right, chapter 6 verse 5.. thanks for your interpretation of it mon.. you of course know better than Jesus about what Jesus was saying.
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And when you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, enter into your closet, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father which is in secret; and your Father which sees in secret shall reward you openly.
7But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not you therefore like to them: for your Father knows what things you have need of, before you ask him.
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oh right, chapter 6 verse 5.. thanks for your interpretation of it mon.. you of course no better than Jesus about what Jesus was saying.
Yep, you nailed it....I know better than God LOL.
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Yep, you nailed it....I know better than God LOL.
the sad thing is i wasted three minutes of my life trying to understand what you were trying to say in your previous post and then just gave up...
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the sad thing is i wasted three minutes of my life trying to understand what you were trying to say in your previous post and then just gave up...
Which words tripped you up? I'm admittedly not the best writer.
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The direction of the chapter is about not acting selfishly, boastfully or hypocritically, but about acting honestly and selflessly. The example of hypocrites praying publically for show is not about outlawing public prayer, it's about outlawing the intent of the prayer...in Christ's example that was hypocrisy.
not sure how any of what you're saying refutes the point that the text clearly seems to be saying don't make a spectacle out of your religion. don't think any reasonable person would disagree that a big part of why people want those kinds of mass prayers is because it is a spectacle/a thing for the public to see. otherwise they'd just quietly say a prayer by themselves.
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I also agree w/MOS's take on that verse.
The surrounding text is talking about not being "showy" w/your righteousness:
Matt 6 1-8
“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Prayer5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
With additional text showing corporate (but sincere) prayer in the Bible as acceptable, I feel that verse 5 is more and analogical exhortation (like plucking our your eye) not to be showy and fake and hypocritical w/your beliefs.
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not sure how any of what you're saying refutes the point that the text clearly seems to be saying don't make a spectacle out of your religion. don't think any reasonable person would disagree that a big part of why people want those kinds of mass prayers is because it is a spectacle/a thing for the public to see. otherwise they'd just quietly say a prayer by themselves.
The chapter does not say "don't make a spectacle out of your religion". Christ commands us to boldly and sincerely spread the good news of salvation. The chapter is suggesting that one should not make a spectacle of him/herself for hypocritical, selfish gain (when praying, giving, fasting). Still, not making a spectacle out of your religion is also implied so that is true. Again, it's not about the act of a public prayer...it's about the intent of the person praying publically that is called into question. Does the prayer honestly glorify God or is it a means to glorify the person praying?
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the text clearly seems to be saying don't make a spectacle out of your religion.
Agree a big part of why people want those kinds of mass prayers is because it is a spectacle/a thing for the public to see.
Unfortunately I think that could be true for some.
An unbeliever though, is going to probably see corporate prayer more as showy since they likely can't fathom what believers believe to be true....we don't think corporate prayer is useless and for attention to the individual. We truly believe we are praying to a God who exists.
I see people raise their hands in church sometimes when they are singing worship songs and I know some unbelievers think that looks nuts. Some people may be doing it for attention, but others are feeling/worshipping the Holy Spirit and want to raise their hands/open their arms to Him.
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Agree
Unfortunately I think that could be true for some.
An unbeliever though, is going to probably see corporate prayer more as showy since they likely can't fathom what believers believe to be true....we don't think corporate prayer is useless and for attention to the individual. We truly believe we are praying to a God who exists.
I see people raise their hands in church sometimes when they are singing worship songs and I know some unbelievers think that looks nuts. Some people may be doing it for attention, but others are feeling/worshipping the Holy Spirit and want to raise their hands/open their arms to Him.
Agreed
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It is in fact Pagan... That's just historical fact.
Saturnalia and what not.
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The verses about public prayer were in fact about those boasting for show only. It's the same in Islam, such prayer is not accepted. Same as these verses in the bible.
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so then the debate begins.. what's for show? whats sincere? When a preacher, any preacher is before a congregation, or any christian in any setting that says "Oh father...we ask that you......... Oh father we thank you for....and dear father... etc etc... "
It's blatant BS. it's a rehearsed chant that is said for the sake of ritual. Any given sunday in any given church, you see the show... So while there may be a rare public prayer meant in earnest... 99% of those prayers you hear in those places, fit the exact description of what Jesus said NOT to do... but hey, who the hell is he anyway...? :o
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There is one benefit to xmas.... sales lmao ;D
Guess who's getting anavar for cheap ;D Brb singing anavar song
Now back on topic lol.. yes it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), and everything to do with pagan origins and subduing the pagans in the roman empire.
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so then the debate begins.. what's for show? whats sincere? When a preacher, any preacher is before a congregation, or any christian in any setting that says "Oh father...we ask that you......... Oh father we thank you for....and dear father... etc etc... "
It's blatant BS. it's a rehearsed chant that is said for the sake of ritual. Any given sunday in any given church, you see the show... So while there may be a rare public prayer meant in earnest... 99% of those prayers you hear in those places, fit the exact description of what Jesus said NOT to do... but hey, who the hell is he anyway...? :o
With that position, this is where the debate should probably end; although, I will say that men like Billy Graham, Ken Freeman, Ravi Zacharias and Nick Vujicic that regularly speak and pray publically are some of the most genuine, loving men of God I've ever seen.
If you ever have an opportunity to hear Ken or Nick speak please take advantage. Those men truly just wanna love you and share Christ with you.
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(http://www.crystalinks.com/cronusomega.jpg)
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Maybe there is hope for Islam if they convert to a real religion of peace.
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so then the debate begins.. what's for show? whats sincere? When a preacher, any preacher is before a congregation, or any christian in any setting that says "Oh father...we ask that you......... Oh father we thank you for....and dear father... etc etc... "
It's blatant BS. it's a rehearsed chant that is said for the sake of ritual. Any given sunday in any given church, you see the show... So while there may be a rare public prayer meant in earnest... 99% of those prayers you hear in those places, fit the exact description of what Jesus said NOT to do... but hey, who the hell is he anyway...? :o
Agnostic007 ain't lying. I partially agree with him on this.
Many Christians have made prayer too public. Many of them pray sincerely, out loud, in public to witness to unbelievers through their prayer. But I am not sure that prayer is a tool for witnessing. Prayer is for talking to God.
And I believe many Christians pray sincerely, out loud, in public because they have been taught that is what they are supposed to do, even though Jesus taught both by word and by example to pray in private:
Luke 5:16
But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.
Mark 1:35
Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.
Matthew 6:6
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Where I disagree with Agnostic007 is his idea that most Christians who pray in public do it to show off. I am sure some do, but not many. They are sincere, but just misinformed, in my opinion.
And Jesus did say short prayers in public some times:
Matthew 14:19
And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people.
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
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Agnostic007 ain't lying. I partially agree with him on this.
Many Christians have made prayer too public. Many of them pray sincerely, out loud, in public to witness to unbelievers through their prayer. But I am not sure that prayer is a tool for witnessing. Prayer is for talking to God.
And I believe many Christians pray sincerely, out loud, in public because they have been taught that is what they are supposed to do, even though Jesus thought both by word and by example to pray in private:
Luke 5:16
But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.
Mark 1:35
Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.
Matthew 6:6
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Where I disagree with Agnostic007 is his idea that most Christians who pray in public do it to show off. I am sure some do, but not many. They are sincere, but just misinformed, in my opinion.
And Jesus did say short prayers in public some times:
Matthew 14:19
And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people.
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
You may have a point about most thinking it's sincere. I guess my contention is like you said, while they may think they are sincere, it's actually counter productive.
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Sex parties? Related to Christmas? Wtf kind of childhood did you have Assmed? No wonder your a fucking fruit loop. Where you get this stuff sometimes all I can do is lol.
Uh Nick, hate to break it to you, but's true.
He got it from the pages of history.
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And when you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, enter into your closet, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father which is in secret; and your Father which sees in secret shall reward you openly.
7But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not you therefore like to them: for your Father knows what things you have need of, before you ask him.
QFT
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Dustin off an old apologetic classic.....Mithra and Christ!!
Here's another oldie but goodie kids......here's Horus and Christ by the Egyptians!!
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Still interesting to see that many of the practices that were introduced into christianity were not originally in the teachings of jesus or his followers.
After all did Jesus forbid 'priests' from marrying? Rabbis married. Jesus was a rabbi, sure he didn't marry, but how does one then make a man made law forbidding religious leadership from marrying?
Little by little small introduced man made laws and practices came about.
December 25th is not the birth of Jesus. Jesus did not advocate such celebrations either. The list goes on.
The many things they talk about are fascinating.
The concept of the trinity itself is not new. Even hindus believe in three 'main gods' but one 'head god' etc...
The video you posted is not comparable to the video I posted which talks about historical specifics including christian scripture that the early church fathers feared.
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This was the first video I found on youtube after searching for Horus and Christianity.....I didn't even watch it LOL.
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It's fascinating for me as a muslim listening to this. How Jews speak lies against Jesus and also the truth. And how they view christianity but falsely accuse jesus instead of knowing in fact paul is the one that started christianity
Likewise as a Muslim fascinating as the qur'an answers both sides about the very things they say. SUch as Jews saying they killed Jesus, the various accusations against Mary and Jesus. Which christianians delusionally don't understand (for example like in the thread where 'everyoen is painted happy' with mary showing the baby jesus. This is not fact, the fact was the Muslim narrative of Mary and Jesus which is in line with the jewish narrative.
Jews would have accuse zacharia and mary of false things. In particular mary of adultery, trying to put her to death for dishonoring a priest, etc... etc...
Just fascinating only a muslim could see the comparative situation between the two sides.
Also point in fact quite amusing how certain evangelical christians are so hardcore israel when in fact israelis hate christians. Fact.
To me it's amazing how the qur'an answers and explains all these people's hate, confusion, misguidance, not getting a long, etc...
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watch this video(i know you guys hate vids, but please take a look and see what this isreali has to say starts at :30)
watch the first 1:30 min of it... to get a full grasp of things.
they insult jesus(peace be upon him)! they insult one of the greatest prophets of God! yet some christians bash and hate muslims who love jesus(pbuh) and have great respect for him and his mother! infact mary is one of the few women mentioned in the Quran, she even has a chapter about her!
just for people who dont know: Muslims love and respect Moses, Jesus and Mohammad(as well as all the other prophets peace be upon them all).
people think Muslims are hostile to Christians(which is FALSE) yet they go and support isreal. it dosent make sense!