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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: loco on January 15, 2013, 11:50:15 AM
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Question for our resident Muslims: Where did Islam come from?
Judaism came directly from God, not from Moses or from any other man. According to the Old Testament, all the people of Israel stood at the foot of Mount Sinai and God himself spoke to them. All the people of Israel heard the voice of God giving them the covenant and the 10 commandments.
Exodus 19-20
Christianity came directly from Jesus Christ(God the Son), not from any other man. According to the New Testament, "the Word was God" and "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1. Jesus selected 12 apostles, had many disciples and taught multitudes by word and by deed.
Islam on the other hand, it is my understanding came from one man, Muhammad, who received it from an angel calling himself Gabriel. However, Islam did not come directly from God to the people. Is that correct?
I would like to request that you please be kind and abstain from posting videos on this thread. I came to the Religion discussion board to have a friendly discussion. If I wanted to spend my time watching videos, I'd go to YouTube instead. Thank you!
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Gabriel was sent to Muhammad by Allah to be his messenger and final prophet
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This information came from Alberto Rivera, former Jesuit priest after his conversion to Protestant Christianity. It is excerpted from "The Prophet," published by Chick Publications, PO Box 662, Chino CA 91708. Since its publication, after several unsuccessful attempts on his life, he died suddenly from food poisoning. His testimony should not be silenced. Dr. Rivera speaks to us still ...
"What I'm going to tell you is what I learned in secret briefings in the Vatican when I was a Jesuit priest, under oath and induction. A Jesuit cardinal named Augustine Bea showed us how desperately the Roman Catholics wanted Jerusalem at the end of the third century. Because of its religious history and its strategic location, the Holy City was considered a priceless treasure. A scheme had to be developed to make Jerusalem a Roman Catholic city.
"The great untapped source of manpower that could do this job was the children of Ishmael. The poor Arabs fell victim to one of the most clever plans ever devised by the powers of darkness. Early Christians went everywhere with the gospel setting up small churches, but they met heavy opposition. Both the Jews and the Roman government persecuted the believers in Christ to stop their spread. But the Jews rebelled against Rome, and in 70 AD, Roman armies under General Titus smashed Jerusalem and destroyed the great Jewish temple which was the heart of Jewish worship...in fulfillment of Christ's prophecy in Matthew 24:2.
"On this holy placed today where the temple once stood, the Dome of the Rock Mosque stands as Islam's second most holy place. Sweeping changes were in the wind. Corruption, apathy, greed, cruelty, perversion and rebellion were eating at the Roman Empire, and it was ready to collapse. The persecution against Christians was useless as they continued to lay down their lives for the gospel of Christ.
"The only way Satan could stop this thrust was to create a counterfeit "Christian" religion to destroy the work of God. The solution was in Rome. Their religion had come from ancient Babylon and all it needed was a face-lift. This didn't happen overnight, but began in the writings of the 'early church fathers'.
"It was through their writings that a new religion would take shape. The statue of Jupiter in Rome was eventually called St. Peter, and the statue of Venus was changed to the Virgin Mary. The site chosen for its headquarters was on one of the seven hills called 'Vaticanus', the place of the diving serpent where the Satanic temple of Janus stood.
"The great counterfeit religion was Roman Catholicism, called 'Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth'- Revelation 17:5. She was raised up to block the gospel, slaughter the believers in Christ, establish religions, create wars and make the nations drunk with the wine of her fornication as we will see.
"Three major religions have one thing in common - each has a holy place where they look for guidance. Roman Catholicism looks to the Vatican as the Holy City. The Jews look to the wailing wall in Jerusalem, and the Muslims look to Mecca as their Holy City. Each group believes that they receive certain types of blessings for the rest of their lives for visiting their holy place. In the beginning, Arab visitors would bring gifts to the 'House of God', and the keepers of the Kaaba were gracious to all who came. Some brought their idols and, not wanting to offend these people, their idols were placed inside the sanctuary. It is said that the Jews looked upon the Kaaba as an outlying tabernacle of the Lord with veneration until it became polluted with idols.
The Kaaba, Mecca. Image from: webislam.com
"In a tribal contention over a well(Zamzam) the treasure of the Kaaba and the offerings that pilgrims had given were dumped down the well and it was filled with sand - it disappeared. Many years later Adb Al-Muttalib was given visions telling him where to find the well and its treasure. He became the hero of Mecca, and he was destined to become the grandfather of Muhammad. Before this time, Augustine became the bishop of North Africa and was effective in winning Arabs to Roman Catholicism, including whole tribes. It was among these Arab converts to Catholicism that the concept of looking for an Arab prophet developed.
"Muhammad's father died from illness and sons born to great Arab families in places like Mecca were sent into the desert to be suckled and weaned and spend some of their childhood with Bedouin tribes for training and to avoid the plagues in the cities.
"After his mother and grandfather also died, Muhammad was with his uncle when a Roman Catholic monk learned of his identity and said, "Take your brother's son back to his country and guard him against the Jews, for by god, if they see him and know of him that which I know, they will construe evil against him. Great things are in store for this brother's son of yours."
"The Roman Catholic monk had fanned the flames for future Jewish persecutions at the hands of the followers of Muhammad. The Vatican desperately wanted Jerusalem because of its religious significance, but was blocked by the Jews.
"Another problem was the true Christians in North Africa who preached the gospel. Roman Catholicism was growing in power, but would not tolerate opposition. Somehow the Vatican had to create a weapon to eliminate both the Jews and the true Christian believers who refused to accept Roman Catholicism. Lookng to North Africa, they saw the multitudes of Arabs as a source of manpower to do their dirty work. Some Arabs had become Roman Catholic, and could be used in reporting information to leaders in Rome. Others were used in an underground spy network to carry out Rome's master plan to control the great multitudes of Arabs who rejected Catholicism. When 'St Augustine' appeared on the scene, he knew what was going on. His monasteries served as bases to seek out and destroy Bible manuscripts owned by the true Christians.
"The Vatican wanted to create a messiah for the Arabs, someone they could raise up as a great leader, a man with charisma whom they could train, and eventually unite all the non-Catholic Arabs behind him, creating a mighty army that would ultimately capture Jerusalem for the pope. In the Vatican briefing, Cardinal Bea told us this story:
'A wealthy Arabian lady who was a faithful follower of the pope played a tremendous part in this drama. She was a widow named Khadijah. She gave her wealth to the church and retired to a convent, but was given an assignment. She was to find a brilliant young man who could be used by the Vatican to create a new religion and become the messiah for the children of Ishmael. Khadijah had a cousin named Waraquah,, who was also a very faithful Roman Catholic and the Vatican placed him in a critical role as Muhammad's advisor. He had tremendous influence on Muhammad.
'Teachers were sent to young Muhammad and he had intensive training. Muhammad studied the works of St. Augustine which prepared him for his "great calling." The Vatican had Catholic Arabs across North Africa spread the story of a great one who was about to rise up among the people and be the chosen one of their God.
'While Muhammad was being prepared, he was told that his enemies were the Jews and that the only true Christians were Roman Catholic. He was taught that others calling themselves Christians were actually wicked impostors and should be destroyed. Many Muslims believe this.
'Muhammad began receiving "divine revelations" and his wife's Catholic cousin Waraquah helped interpret them. From this came the Koran. In the fifth year of Muhammad's mission, persecution came against his followers because they refused to worship the idols in the Kaaba.
'Muhammad instructed some of them to flee to Abysinnia where Negus, the Roman Catholic king accepted them because Muhammad's views on the virgin Mary were so close to Roman Catholic doctrine. These Muslims received protection from Catholic kings because of Muhammad's revelations.
'Muhammad later conquered Mecca and the Kaaba was cleared of idols. History proves that before Islam came into existence, the Sabeans in Arabia worshiped the moon-god who was married to the sun-god. They gave birth to three goddesses who were worshipped throughout the Arab world as "Daughters of Allah" An idol excavated at Hazor in Palestine in 1950's shows Allah sitting on a throne with the crescent moon on his chest.
'Muhammad claimed he had a vision from Allah and was told, "You are the messenger of Allah." This began his career as a prophet and he received many messages. By the time Muhammad died, the religion of Islam was exploding. The nomadic Arab tribes were joining forces in the name of Allah and his prophet, Muhammad.
'Some of Muhammad's writings were placed in the Koran, others were never published. They are now in the hands of high ranking holy men (Ayatollahs) in the Islamic faith.'
"When Cardinal Bea shared with us in the Vatican, he said, these writings are guarded because they contain information that links the Vatican to the creation of Islam. Both sides have so much information on each other, that if exposed, it could create such a scandal that it would be a disaster for both religions.
"In their "holy" book, the Koran, Christ is regarded as only a prophet. If the pope was His representative on earth, then he also must be a prophet of God. This caused the followers of Muhammad to fear and respect the pope as another "holy man."
"The pope moved quickly and issued bulls granting the Arab generals permission to invade and conquer the nations of North Africa. The Vatican helped to finance the building of these massive Islamic armies in exchange for three favors:
1. Eliminate the Jews and Christians (true believers, which they called infidels).
2. Protect the Augustinian Monks and Roman Catholics.
3. Conquer Jerusalem for "His Holiness" in the Vatican.
"As time went by, the power of Islam became tremendous - Jews and true Christians were slaughtered, and Jerusalem fell into their hands. Roman Catholics were never attacked, nor were their shrines, during this time. But when the pope asked for Jerusalem, he was surprised at their denial! The Arab generals had such military success that they could not be intimidated by the pope - nothing could stand in the way of their own plan.
"Under Waraquah's direction, Muhammad wrote that Abraham offered Ishmael as a sacrifice. The Bible says that Isaac was the sacrifice, but Muhammad removed Isaac's name and inserted Ishmael's name. As a result of this and Muhammad's vision, the faithful Muslims built a mosque, the Dome of the Rock, in Ishmael's honor on the site of the Jewish temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. This made Jerusalem the 2nd most holy place in the Islam faith. How could they give such a sacred shrine to the pope without causing a revolt?
Image from: letsgo.com
"The pope realized what they had created was out of control when he heard they were calling "His Holiness" an infidel. The Muslim generals were determined to conquer the world for Allah and now they turned toward Europe. Islamic ambassadors approached the pope and asked for papal bulls to give them permission to invade European countries.
"The Vatican was outraged; war was inevitable. Temporal power and control of the world was considered the basic right of the pope. He wouldn't think of sharing it with those whom he considered heathens.
"The pope raised up his armies and called them crusades to hold back the children of Ishmael from grabbing Catholic Europe. The crusades lasted centuries and Jerusalem slipped out of the pope's hands.
"Turkey fell and Spain and Portugal were invaded by Islamic forces. In Portugal, they called a mountain village "Fatima" in honor of Muhammad's daughter, never dreaming it would become world famous.
"Years later when the Muslim armies were poised on the islands of Sardinia and Corsica, to invade Italy, there was a serious problem. The Islamic generals realized they were too far extended. It was time for peace talks. One of the negotiators was Francis of Assisi.
"As a result, the Muslims were allowed to occupy Turkey in a "Christian" world, and the Catholics were allowed to occupy Lebanon in the Arab world. It was also agreed that the Muslims could build mosques in Catholic countries without interference as long as Roman Catholicism could flourish Arab countries.
"Cardinal Bea told us in Vatican briefings that both the Muslims and Roman Catholics agreed to block and destroy the efforts of their common enemy, Bible-believing Christianm missionaries. Through these concordats, Satan blocked the children of Ishmael from a knowledge of Scripture and the truth.
"A light control was kept on Muslims from the Ayatollah down through the Islamic priests, nuns and monks. The Vatican also engineers a campaign of hatred between the Muslim Arabs and the Jews. Before this, they had co-existed peacefully.
"The Islamic community looks on the Bible-believing missionary as a devil who brings poison to the children of Allah. This explains years of ministry in those countries with little results.
"The next plan was to control Islam. In 1910, Portugal was going Socialistic. Red flags were appearing and the Catholic Church was facing a major problem. Increasing numbers were against the church.
"The Jesuits wanted Russia involved, and the location of this vision at Fatima could play a key part in pulling Islam to the Mother Church.
Lucia de Santos, Francisco Marco and Jacinta Maro in 1917. Image from: mystae.com
"In 1917, the Virgin appeared in Fatima. "The Mother of God" was a smashing success, playing to overflow crowds. As a result, the Socialists of Portugal suffered a major defeat.
"Roman Catholics world-wide began praying for the conversion of Russia and the Jesuits invented the Novenas to Fatima which they could perform throughout North Africa, spreading good public relations to the Muslim world. The Arabs thought they were honoring the daughter of Muhammad, which is what the Jesuits wanted them to believe.
"As a result of the vision of Fatima, Pope Pius XII ordered his Nazi army to crush Russia and the Orthodox religion and make Russia Roman Catholic." A few years after he lost World war II, Pope Pius XII startled the world with his phoney dancing sun vision to keep Fatima in the news. It was great religious show biz and the world swallowed it.
"Not surprisingly, Pope Pius was the only one to see this vision. As a result, a group of followers has grown into a Blue Army world-wide, totaling millions of faithful Roman Catholics ready to die for the blessed virgin.
"But we haven't seen anything yet. The Jesuits have their Virgin Mary scheduled to appear four or five times in China, Russia, and major appearance in the U.S.
"What has this got to do with Islam? Note Bishop Sheen's
statement: "Our Lady's appearances at Fatima marked the turning point in the history of the world's 350 million Muslims. After the death of his daughter, Muhammad wrote that she "is the most holy of all women in Paradise, next to Mary."
"He believed that the Virgin Mary chose to be known as Our Lady of Fatima as a sign and a pledge that the Muslims who believe in Christ's virgin birth, will come to believe in His divinity.
"Bishop Sheen pointed out that the pilgrim virgin statues of Our Lady of Fatima were enthusiastically received by Muslims in Africa, India, and elsewhere, and that many Muslims are now coming into the Roman Catholic Church."
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Islam, an invention of the Vatican gone bad? LOL
Now, that is one I have never heard before. ;D
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Islam came from ALLAH and was the religon of Adam. the message that God is ONE and to not be a pagan and a polytheist and give God partners/sons/rivals was given to diffrent prophets for diffirent times in history, to diffrent locations in history to tell their own people.
124,000 prophets of islam all brought the same message just to diffrent people(diffrent nations/tribes). Moses was sent by ALLAH(hence why jews claim to worship ALLAH). Jesus was sent by ALLAH and Mohammad was sent by ALLAH. All of these men did amazing things (sea opening for moses, jesus being born with a father and talking as a baby). they did these things only with ALLAHS permission and help and had no power themselves.
islam DIRECTLY COMES FROM GOD. were the idea of worshiping Jesus dosent and is a simply flase idea by Pual(a man who was persecuting christians) which jesus NEVER told people to do(and as you told me not to post vids i tell you DO NOT GIVE me VERSES FROM THE BIBLE, BECAUSE IT IS A WELL KNOWN FACT THE BIBLE HAS BEEN CHANGED. so your verses have no value in the arugment :))
the first JEWS/CHRISTIANS were MUSLIMS.
Islam- Worship GOD. the one who is in control of all things and whom all power belongs to. the truly merciful one. the religon of Solomon,Noah,Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad(and all other 124,000) prophets.
its the truth as much as it hurts :-[ after all theres a reason the statues of Jesus are hit with lighting. as you christians say "everything happens for a reason" right? :)
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lol islam haters and their many fantasies. ironic that the 'vatican is behind it' ooooOoOOoh yet we reject the pagan vatican and its trinity :)
So much non-sense. I'm not even bothering replying.
The Jews started with Jacob, Joseph, etc... Moses brought guidance for the israelites and the law.
However Jews do not even follow the law anymore they follow talmudic rabbinical teachings. it was one of the things Jesus argued against but not the law.
Christians follow Paul, the roman church, etc.. not Jesus. Hence the many later inventions.
Muslims and Islam mean submission to God which in the literal sense all the prophets and messengers were. Ascribing to the same God, the same message, but many messengers. However Muhammad (pbuh) was the last and final messenger for all mankind not for a 'special people' but for all mankind.
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Thank you for your responses and for not posting videos!
You don't have to respond to the post about the Vatican inventing Islam. I did not post that.
So did the Qur'an come from Mohammed, who received it from an angel called Gabriel or not?
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The qur'an was revealed through arch angel Gabriel to Muhammad (peace be upon them both) over a period of 23 years. It was compiled together under Uthman. However as is the case today many people memorized it word for word prior. Today there are hundreds of millions of Muslims even 3 year olds who have memorized the qur'an word for word.
The qur'an is literally the word of God given to Muhammad through arch angel Gabriel. There are no mystery authors. Each ayaht -- sign (verse) was revealed at a specific time throughout that period of 23 years.
The thing is we have tafsir (commentary) and detail accounts on when everything was revealed, why it was revealed, etc...
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The qur'an was revealed through arch angel Gabriel to Muhammad (peace be upon them both) over a period of 23 years. It was compiled together under Uthman. However as is the case today many people memorized it word for word prior. Today there are hundreds of millions of Muslims even 3 year olds who have memorized the qur'an word for word.
The qur'an is literally the word of God given to Muhammad through arch angel Gabriel. There are no mystery authors. Each ayaht -- sign (verse) was revealed at a specific time throughout that period of 23 years.
Thank you! Now we are getting somewhere.
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And Gabriel is an archangel an angel of high importance, like Michael or Raphael (Israfil) for instance, as is the case Gabriel often was sent to prophets to deliver messages. For Moses, for Abraham, for Mary, for Zacharia, etc...
Besides the qur'an Muhammad also received other things from Gabriel which were not a part of the qur'an. The qu'ran however is the literal revealed word of God.
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And Gabriel is an archangel an angel of high importance, like Michael or Raphael (Israfil) for instance, as is the case Gabriel often was sent to prophets to deliver messages. For Moses, for Abraham, for Mary, for Zacharia, etc...
Besides the qur'an Muhammad also received other things from Gabriel which were not a part of the qur'an. The qu'ran however is the literal revealed word of God.
Gabriel is an archangel, like Michael, like Lucifer?
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Lucifer is a name for a devil. We don't believe in fallen angels. We believe in the creation of the universe and within it the animal kingdom and three distinct intelligent creatures. Djinn, Angels and humans. Angels we believe are more like robots without desires who follow God's orders without question, they are absolute servants of God. While Djinn and humans are intelligent creatures created with choice and desires unlike angels.
Iblis which is a name for the 'father satan' if you wana call it that like the representation of lucifer or satan in the christian sense is 'the satan'. He is not an angel.
I did post a video specifically dealing with this BUT of course you did not watch it because you are lazy. Instead of me typing up ten paragraphs retelling the stories, etc... you could have watched that 5 minute video about djinn, satan, etc...
I see where your lame attempts are heading, the qur'an was revealed through the devil ::) It's as pathetic and lame as the vatican invented islam.
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Lucifer is a name for a devil. We don't believe in fallen angels. We believe in the creation of the universe and within it the animal kingdom and three distinct intelligent creatures. Djinn, Angels and humans. Angels we believe are more like robots without desires who follow God's orders without question, they are absolute servants of God. While Djinn and humans are intelligent creatures created with choice and desires unlike angels.
Iblis which is a name for the 'father satan' if you wana call it that like the representation of lucifer or satan in the christian sense is 'the satan'. He is not an angel.
I did post a video specifically dealing with this BUT of course you did not watch it because you are lazy. Instead of me typing up ten paragraphs retelling the stories, etc... you could have watched that 5 minute video about djinn, satan, etc...
I see where your lame attempts are heading, the qur'an was revealed through the devil ::) It's as pathetic and lame as the vatican invented islam.
I watched the Jinn video! I watched it in the Islam education video thread! Best 5 minutes of my life! I even read a book on Islam with a half chapter on the Jinn!
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Good job, loco should do the same. Glad you're watching them. There was more than one video (different) that I posted on the very subject.
In cliff notes, Iblis was a djinn, a devil creature. Djinn-kind predates humankind and they like us lived life in their way, they were sent messengers from amongst themselves, until they became so corrupt. Amongst them one of the pious was iblis. He rose in reputation with God. He led armies of angels to fight off djinn but he himself was not an angel.
However his arrogance led to his downfall. God knew everything in advance and had a plan and it ultimately led to his outing out of heaven. You have to watch the whole video narrative of the story to fully understand. It was his arrogance in thinking he is better in substance and creation than Adam. We are made from different substances and he assumed he is better while God knows best what He creates.
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I see where your lame attempts are heading, the qur'an was revealed through the devil ::) It's as pathetic and lame as the vatican invented islam.
If you say so.
I was actually going with something else. But you've opened my eyes to something here.
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I watched the Jinn video! I watched it in the Islam education video thread! Best 5 minutes of my life! I even read a book on Islam with a half chapter on the Jinn!
good stuff man. It puts alot of things into perspective huh?
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I wish Muslims would understand that the Catholic faith is a false version of Christianity they teach the trinity lie, purgatory lie, immortality of the soul, idolitry, take part in pagan fetivals, pray to the dead, are involved with politics, murdered innocent Christians for reading Bibles, charge interest to their churches, have massive wealth but help no one with it and if you read Paul's words in the Bible you would know he can't be Catholic. Jesus Christ is coming soon to judge the living and the dead with authority from his father, Jehovah.
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No we are very well aware that the romans hijacked Jesus' teachings, hijacked the religion of Moses and his people the Jews. Paul and the romans are the ones that did away with the law of God, implemented men made laws, they are the ones that thought the divinity of Jesus, the many other things, including yes pagan beliefs, pagan festivities, etc... etc... all hisotircal facts.
We are indeed very well aware.
Who were the true Christians, aka followers of the messiah as christ means messiah. They were the Jews who followed the law of God, who accepted Jesus as the messiah and followed the teachings of Jesus.
Today the only ones who come close to that are Muslims and sincere Christians who seek the truth but do not worship Jesus or accept the many false inventions of the roman church.
The romans were the oppressors of Jews, Paul was an oppressor of the followers of Jesus. A conspiracy if one must say.
Remember the 'original' 'modern' christianity is what stemmed from the teachings of Paul and the roman church. What was codified as christianity is what anhilated the original followers of jesus who did no such thing as abandoning the law of God or accepting pagan beliefs, etc...
Paul was a hypocrite, he tried to buy his way into everyone, didn't matter if he tried to please jews, please romans, please pagans, etc... he himself said he will be on the way of those that he wants to buy into. That's why the true apostles of Jesus saw him as a fraud and did not trust him.
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I see where your lame attempts are heading, the qur'an was revealed through the devil ::) It's as pathetic and lame as the vatican invented islam.
So is this why the Muslims hate the apostle Paul so much?
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Well he claimed to be doing God's work yet did away with God's law. He tried to please everyone including pagans to 'win them over' something Jesus never would. Quite surely he was the one being led by the devil.
He says a flash of lightning came down from heaven but apparently I remember some other verse in the bible mentioning Satan/Lucifer also appearing like that. Makes one wonder!
Yes," he told them, "I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning! Luke 10:18
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7801224
There is a medical journal on the subject epic laughing on my end ;D
On the other hand Muhammad (pbuh) was offered power, kingship, rule, women, wealth, etc.. and he refused and said he would not accept the moon and the sun in his hands in exchange for what he had (the message to worship God alone). No bribe or worldly gain was worth for the message of God.
In other words Muhammad (pbuh) NEVER attempted to please anyone BUT God. No exchange for the truth. No compromise on the truth. Unlike Paul who tried to win over everyone by trying ot be like them, to appease or change his message or what he said.
Just as his accounts of his so called visions changed in each account presentation in his 'letters'.
His three accounts and his 'companions' all differ. I could poke fun at it due to the even scientific erroneous nature of the events. That being said, he is a fraud and was rejected by Jesus' actual followers and that's all that needs to be said and done.
He did not affirm what was, he CHANGED what was and brought something totally different. He did away with God's law. Something Jesus did not come to do. What is the result? Everyone does whatever they want but they are saved? Makes a lot of sense!
What sounds more like satan's work?
Us Muslims being told to do good deeds, avoid evil deeds and that we will be justly judged accordingly. Although ultimately salvation is through God's MERCY!
Or Christians being told they are already saved, guaranteed as long as they worship a man. Deeds don't matter.
The later sounds a lot more like devil's work.
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I wish Muslims would understand that the Catholic faith is a false version of Christianity they teach the trinity lie, purgatory lie, immortality of the soul, idolitry, take part in pagan fetivals, pray to the dead, are involved with politics, murdered innocent Christians for reading Bibles, charge interest to their churches, have massive wealth but help no one with it and if you read Paul's words in the Bible you would know he can't be Catholic. Jesus Christ is coming soon to judge the living and the dead with authority from his father, Jehovah.
wow i didnt know the diffrence. Honestly, Im suprised. the pope is a catholic right?
Muslims also believe Jesus is comming back to earth(as he never died in the first place), to establish order, fight the dajjal(anti-christ as you would call it) and bring people to the true path of God.
btw: since you mentioned interest. Interest is forbidden by God, yet its a shame people here in the USA dont care :-\. I mean if your a Muslim or Chrisitan you should be agaisnt it! its the reason were having such economic problems right now.
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Jesus indeed got angry in the temple and kicked out the money exchangers, swindling interest scum just like the bankers of today.
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Jesus indeed got angry in the temple and kicked out the money exchangers, swindling interest scum just like the bankers of today.
I remember searching for islamic banking(interest free banking/loans) and they said they have many muslim clients aswell as ultra conservative christian clients. so there are a few souls out there that care!
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I personally believe Muhammad was listening to, and probably possessed by, demons. But even if it were an angel, Paul warns:
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"
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I personally believe Muhammad was listening to, and probably possessed by, demons. But even if it were an angel, Paul warns:
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"
Good point!
"Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." 2 Corinthians 11:14
This explains why Muslims hate the apostle Paul so much.
Judaism and Christianity were both given directly by God to people according to the Bible, whereas Islam was given to people through one man who in turn received it from an angel who in turn claimed to have received it from God according to the Qur'an.
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good stuff man. It puts alot of things into perspective huh?
Well it does but provide some education and perspective, but not in a manner that leads me closer to accepting Islamic theology (I don’t mean that to be disrespectful either). Fact of the matter is, I will never forsake my God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because the truth of God has been affirmed for me through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I know ahmed simply responds with “meaningless emotional rhetoric”, but that does nothing to take away from the reality of the situation…..that’s a just canned response for a concept foreign to him (doesn’t have to be that way though).
Christianity and Islam may have some verses of scripture that are similar, but that doesn't negate the foundational tenets that are diametrically opposed. The simple change from "salvation by grace through faith in Christ" to "human works as payment for sin" is the crux of the matter (for me). That seemingly simply change in theology becomes shrouded in the "written elegance and beauty of the Quran", but it’s part of the essence of the monumental change! For the Muslim, the fact that our own human works are not enough to pay our sin debt is often brushed off with a casual, "So we're not supposed to do good things....BAH...that's pagan!" The indwelling of Holy Spirit and a believers act of repentance that follows are brushed aside as well, but if it is addressed it's given the ole "emotional rhetoric" response which is meaningless in and of itself and founded completely in ignorance.
Islam reinvents Christ as “prophet Jesus (pbuh)”, denies his deity, his resurrection, his sacrifice on the cross, denies the trinity, denies salvation by grace through faith, denies virtually every word of scripture, denies Paul’s revelation from Christ and cherry picks biblical scripture to meet a desired end. In essence, every verse of biblical scripture in support of the Christian is corrupt, but any verse serving the Muslim is somehow acceptable....a double standard and pure nonsense!!
The theology of Islam is affirmed in biblical scripture, but that affirmation is found only in biblical warnings concerning future false prophets, competing theologies that deny Christ or apostasy. If it denies Christ, it is the antithesis of Christ and sourced from the antichrist. The whole notion that Islam accepts "prophet Jesus as the Messiah" is nonsense!!! There is no acceptance of biblical, scriptural Christ, there’s only a reimagining of Christ within a new, antichristian theology…..a new version of Jesus was fashioned to fit the Islamic mold.
Yes, I watch some of the posted videos, read internet articles, I read a book to help me understand Islam; although, I in no way believe or uphold its foundational tenets. Although, let me be clear, I don’t dislike Musims….I dislike Islamic theology; further, I know this won’t cushion the blow or “make things right” between Muslims and Christians. Still, I have to be honest because I genuinely care about the members of this board…..even those that detest me.
What gets me is that the Muslim is so steadfast in their support of Islam, Allah, Muhammad, etc…., but fully admits that their life’s pursuit of good works may not secure them a place in Allah’s eternal paradise. The Muslim cannot be sure that they’re doing enough or doing their good works appropriately. At least the atheist believes “hey, when I’m dead that’s it.” For the Muslim a life of good works may simply be in vain.
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I personally believe Muhammad was listening to, and probably possessed by, demons. But even if it were an angel, Paul warns:
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"
Lets see what God says in the Quran(in Chapter 5. The Table Spread ):
"They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers"
"They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment."
"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.Allah will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.
also look at this verse:
Say, "O People of the Scripture, do not exceed limits in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclinations of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way."
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The simple change from "salvation by grace through faith in Christ" to "human works as payment for sin" is the crux of the matter (for me)
Except that's not what Islam believes, it shows that you are still unaware despite all we've said. That's what you believe Islam believes. Yes you believe that you are 'saved' and garaunteed paradise for worshipping Jesus a man, but we do not believe that we do good deeds to pay for sin.
We do good deeds because it is good. We avoid evil deeds because it is evil.
However God will JUSTLY JUDGE everyone. That's the component you are missing that Islam has. Justice.
People will be rewarded and punished based on the good and evil they do, however it is not the deeds by which we enter heaven but by God's mercy.
So you see the difference, we believe in God's mercy, yet we are also thought justice and to live this life justly, to be rewarded as such, and as a result also lead lives of righteousness amongst mankind with good deeds. Those that are evil will be judged accordingly. That is all it comes down to.
It's not about 'atonement for sin', or 'original sin' or whatever other invented non-sense that we do good works for.
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Edit: ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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watch this. watch this if you really claim to follow pual. and dont give me any of that "Oh no! not more youtube videos!"stuff either.
I nicely requested no videos on this thread which I started, but you clearly have no respect and can't form an opinion of your own. That's okay. Do as thy will. ::)
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We don't 'form our opinions' we believe in islam and we get our knowledge from scholars and the qur'an. That's another difference between us and you. You make up your beliefs as you go, hence why in the past when I debated with some christians on here some even went as far as affirming that God can become objects if he so willed. Even if it's blasphemy and goes against scriptural proofs, you can go that far off when you just form your beliefs on conjecture.
The video he posted illustrates the point quite clearly, in fact that's pretty much how I imagined Paul lol.
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watch this. watch this if you really claim to follow pual. and dont give me any of that "Oh no! not more youtube videos!"stuff either.
I nicely requested no videos on this thread which I started, but you clearly have no respect and can't have a discussion of your own. ::)
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It's too bad you don't like it.
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Jesus was teaching his disciples in the outer court of the Temple and one of them said unto him: Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood there is no remission. Can then the blood offering of the law take away sin? And Jesus answered: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation. (Gospel of the Nazorenes, Lection 33, verses 1-2)
wait a sec, Jesus(pbuh) says blood offerings cant take away sin, yet you claim he died for your sins? hmmm? ehh?
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Do as thy will. ::)
LOL. words loco lives by.
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Mohammed was tricked by Satan into thinking he was god. He called himself Allah, therefore Allah = Satan. Mohammed himself said he had thought he spoke to Satan. People say the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making people think he doesnt exist... I dont think thats correct. His greatest trick was creating Islam and still having millions think he is thier god.
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Mohammed was tricked by Satan into thinking he was god. He called himself Allah, therefore Allah = Satan. Mohammed himself said he had thought he spoke to Satan. People say the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making people think he doesnt exist... I dont think thats correct. His greatest trick was creating Islam and still having millions think he is thier god.
1. Mohammed never said he spoke to Satan
2. The jews claim to Worship Allah
3. the word Allah is in Hebrew, Aramic and Arabic
4. http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=455071.0 take a look at this(since Loco has a fear of youtube(and the truth), I will respect his fears and not post the vid in this thread)
5. you miserably failed(again).
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Jesus was teaching his disciples in the outer court of the Temple and one of them said unto him: Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood there is no remission. Can then the blood offering of the law take away sin? And Jesus answered: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation. (Gospel of the Nazorenes, Lection 33, verses 1-2)
wait a sec, Jesus(pbuh) says blood offerings cant take away sin, yet you claim he died for your sins? hmmm? ehh?
1. What does this have to do with this thread?
2. I already posted many verses saying that Jesus did indeed die for our sins
3. You just owned yourself with that verse above as it clearly confirms that not just any man can die for our sins. The death of Jesus Christ is the only sacrifice that He(God) would accept as atonement for our sins.
Where did you get the above verse from anyway, Gospel of the Nazorenes? LOL
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.
Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
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Sorry ahmed, I accidentally deleted your post....my apologies....did not mean to do that.
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The Qur'an was not even written by Muhammad. It was written down by Muhammad's companions. The Qur'an was not completed until many years after the death of Muhammad.
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It was memorized by Muhammad and his companions then written down yes.
Something we can hardly say of anyone even today of the bible, then the many flavours, versions and editions.
The qur'an is memorized by hundreds of millions of people today word for word, even little children.