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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: a_ahmed on February 21, 2013, 01:30:20 PM
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Mos you posted this so I thought I'd respond:
Jesus’ temptation: The first idea we must acknowledge is that God (who is one) limited his Sonship essence/personhood into that of a man in Jesus Christ who was born by the Holy Spirit and lived as a sinless, mortal man on Earth.
This is an allegation based on your trinitarian beliefs.
Christ’s plan on earth was to live and die as the perfect, sinless sacrifice for all of us. He was fully a human man with all the limitations therein, but he drew strength, guidance and power from his Fatherly essence/personhood in heaven. That said, he prayed, worked, hungered, thirsted and was even tempted by Satan as any man on Earth, but make no mistake he was no ordinary man.
Again based on your beliefs not on what the scriptures illustrate.
Satan sought to tempt the man Jesus Christ, but was does it mean to tempt? It means he tested the temporarily limited God-man Jesus Christ in hopes that Christ would fall prey to the temptation and sin, but Christ defended himself with nothing but the word by referencing the old testament scripture indicating that you “do not test the Lord your God” thereby defending himself and affirming the reality of who he was to Satan…..he is God.
Absolutely ridiculous. You are repeating the chuch trinitarian narrative. Secondly the quote from deutoronmy is not affirming that Jesus is God but referencing a similar example from the OT where people tempted God by saying they would do something and be saved by God for instance. As is the reference to 'satan' quoting psalms. That angels would come out to save Jesus, etc...
More importantly 'tested temporarily limited God-man'
Again conjecture based on your own beliefs not on what the verses state.
Satan left shortly thereafter and the man Jesus Christ who has affirmed that he was God was them tended to and comforted by the angels because he was still a mortal man at that point.
Jesus did not affirm he was God in any of those verses, again. This is wonderful that you can make a paragraph about what you believe, however it has no coercion with what is being stated in the verses.
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The divinity of Jesus within scripture is clearly affirmed. The fact that Muslims don't agree doesn't change that fact. My faith and your religion are diametrically opposed and I expect nothing less than total disagreement on your part. The reason for my posting is for others reading the board that have not made a choice for Christ. You simply telling me what I posted is wrong doesn't make it so....everything posted is validated in scripture....and that scripture has been posted.....repeatedly.
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Lets now take a look at what the actual verses say:
From LUKE:
4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.
First of all here we see the mention of the holy spirit leading Jesus into the wilderness and that he was 'full of it'. So are these two different? You say you are full of the holy spirit too. Full of faith? Being led by it?
Jesus fasted and was tempted by the devil. He had nothing to eat and was hungry.
God does not get hungry. God does not get tempted by his own creation. God is independent not dependent.
3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”
Very interesting that Jesus says Man shall not live on bread alone. He is referring to himself. No where does he say he is God.
What is being quoted is Deutoronomy as well:
3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.
FAITH.
5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendour; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
So if Jesus is 'god', he needs the devil to give him authority...?
This pretty much sums it up. Jesus is on his own, 40 days, fasting. No one around but the devil. What is the point? He is not God this proves it quite eloquently. And then to break it down even more, the devil says authority was given to HIM... and that he can give it to Jesus.
It's mind boggling it is so clear.
8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]”
This is Jesus rejecting the devil and reaffirming the commandment as in deutoronomy.
9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]”
First of all notice the differentiation between Jesus and God. Secondly this is a quotation from psalms, what the devil means is, if you are true of faith and God is your supporter, he will save you even if you jump off.
12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]”
This is a quotation from Deuteronomy which relates to incident where people tempted God. It is not Jesus saying he is God. Only way you can interpret it like that is with your preconcieved trinitarian beliefs. Otherwise if you read the bible from cover to cover you would realize this is a specific incident in Deuteronomy again.
It's kind of how we muslims say, we trust in God, but that does not mean we let things be and 'God will take care of it'.
There is a hadi'th of Muhammad (pbuh) where a man left his camel untied saying God will take care of it, and Muhammad (pbuh) said no, tie up your camel and then God will take care of it.
In other words, don't do foolish things and put it on God, blame God later, whatever.
Just one example.
In other words in Jesus' case, he is a servant of God, why tempt God by throwing himself off a cliff for God to save him?
13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.
So to finish it off, here the devil says until an opportune time. In other words the devil is still plotting.
God does not need anyone's property, or authority, nor is God dependent or hungry.
Why would "God" wonder the desert for 40 days?
This is what I said, think and use your God given intellect.
What you posted to me is your summary of what you believe, not what is stated in the bible.
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The divinity of Jesus within scripture is clearly affirmed. The fact that Muslims don't agree doesn't change that fact. My faith and your religion are diametrically opposed and I expect nothing less than total disagreement on your part. The reason for my posting is for others reading the board that have not made a choice for Christ. You simply telling me what I posted is wrong doesn't make it so....everything posted is validated in scripture....and that scripture has been posted.....repeatedly.
Not it hasn't. The way you wrote that paragraph basically says.
Yes Jesus was god-man, he gave up his powers, and he did human things and he was just trying to be perfect in his human form sinless.
But does it actually say God gave up his powers ANYWHERE in the bible? No. Does it anywhere actually say "God-Man" in the bible? No.
It is based on your own interpolations of elusive verses combined with your conviction in the belief of the trinity. So not 'affirmed as per scripture' rather affirmed as per your belief and selective interpretation of certain elusive verses.
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Lets now take a look at what the actual verses say:
First of all here we see the mention of the holy spirit leading Jesus into the wilderness and that he was 'full of it'. So are these two different? You say you are full of the holy spirit too. Full of faith? Being led by it?
Jesus fasted and was tempted by the devil. He had nothing to eat and was hungry.
God does not get hungry. God does not get tempted by his own creation. God is independent not dependent.
Very interesting that Jesus says Man shall not live on bread alone. He is referring to himself. No where does he say he is God.
What is being quoted is Deutoronomy as well:
FAITH.
So if Jesus is 'god', he needs the devil to give him authority...?
This pretty much sums it up. Jesus is on his own, 40 days, fasting. No one around but the devil. What is the point? He is not God this proves it quite eloquently. And then to break it down even more, the devil says authority was given to HIM... and that he can give it to Jesus.
It's mind boggling it is so clear.
This is Jesus rejecting the devil and reaffirming the commandment as in deutoronomy.
First of all notice the differentiation between Jesus and God. Secondly this is a quotation from psalms, what the devil means is, if you are true of faith and God is your supporter, he will save you even if you jump off.
This is a quotation from Deuteronomy which relates to incident where people tempted God. It is not Jesus saying he is God. Only way you can interpret it like that is with your preconcieved trinitarian beliefs. Otherwise if you read the bible from cover to cover you would realize this is a specific incident in Deuteronomy again.
It's kind of how we muslims say, we trust in God, but that does not mean we let things be and 'God will take care of it'.
There is a hadi'th of Muhammad (pbuh) where a man left his camel untied saying God will take care of it, and Muhammad (pbuh) said no, tie up your camel and then God will take care of it.
In other words, don't do foolish things and put it on God, blame God later, whatever.
Just one example.
In other words in Jesus' case, he is a servant of God, why tempt God by throwing himself off a cliff for God to save him?
So to finish it off, here the devil says until an opportune time. In other words the devil is still plotting.
God does not need anyone's property, or authority, nor is God dependent or hungry.
Why would "God" wonder the desert for 40 days?
This is what I said, think and use your God given intellect.
What you posted to me is your summary of what you believe, not what is stated in the bible.
The biblical scripture explained through the lense of Islam holds no value whatsoever.....you have not correctly interpreted a single thing within your post.
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Not it hasn't. The way you wrote that paragraph basically says.
Yes Jesus was god-man, he gave up his powers, and he did human things and he was just trying to be perfect in his human form sinless.
But does it actually say God gave up his powers ANYWHERE in the bible? No. Does it anywhere actually say "God-Man" in the bible? No.
It is based on your own interpolations of elusive verses combined with your conviction in the belief of the trinity. So not 'affirmed as per scripture' rather affirmed as per your belief and selective interpretation of certain elusive verses.
No, it does one better it repeatedly demonstrates it.
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Jesus tempted by the devli? Who the heck is the devli?
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lol I used what was in the verses and pointed out where the quotations are from in the bible, deutoronomy and psalms. How is this through the lens of islam? Just because I became Muslim lol?
Which lens did you use? Trinity lens?
What you did was restate what YOU believe, not what the verses are saying, I pointed out what the verses are SAYING and even where they are from.
I am not putting things through a 'islam lens', but you are actually filtering the bible with your trinity lens where you want to prove the trinity an external concept not something within the bible itself. I was a christian and well versed in the bible before Islam ever came to me, I did not pick and chose what the verses say. What you are doing is actually picking and chosing as I've demonstrated in other threads.
Again, where in the bible does it say that "God gave up his powers"? Anywhere Mos?
Where in the bible does it actually say "God-Man"? Anywhere Mos?
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Jesus tempted by the devli? Who the heck is the devli?
A new low of desperation where you're resorting to pointing out spelling mistakes :-\
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lol I used what was in the verses and pointed out where the quotations are from in the bible, deutoronomy and psalms. How is this through the lens of islam? Just because I became Muslim lol?
Which lens did you use? Trinity lens?
What you did was restate what YOU believe, not what the verses are saying, I pointed out what the verses are SAYING and even where they are from.
I am not putting things through a 'islam lens', but you are actually filtering the bible with your trinity lens where you want to prove the trinity an external concept not something within the bible itself. I was a christian and well versed in the bible before Islam ever came to me, I did not pick and chose what the verses say. What you are doing is actually picking and chosing as I've demonstrated in other threads.
Again, where in the bible does it say that "God gave up his powers"? Anywhere Mos?
Where in the bible does it actually say "God-Man"? Anywhere Mos?
You approach every verse of the bible with the Islamic rationale that Jesus is not divine, Jesus was not crucificed, Jesus was not resurrected, there is no Trinity, Paul is a pagan, etc....hence you dismiss the essence of scripture and thereby reinterpret it according to the standards of Islam.
I use my own words, but they align with scripture. Christ is God and became man....I said God-man in this statement....first time I've actually used that. The concpets are fully present in scripture whether I use my own words to express them or not I'm not deviating from scripture.
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You approach every verse of the bible with the Islamic rationale that Jesus is not divine, Jesus was not crucificed, Jesus was not resurrected, there is no Trinity, Paul is a pagan, etc....hence you dismiss the essence of scripture and thereby reinterpret it according to the standards of Islam.
I use my own words, but they align with scripture. Christ is God and became man....I said God-man in this statement....first time I've actually used that. The concpets are fully present in scripture whether I use my own words to express them or not I'm not deviating from scripture.
To be fair, many bible verses are elusive and up for interpretation. For example, you interpret them under the trinitarian methodology, others under the unitarian methodology.
You do post scripture at times yes, but when you type phrases like, "God limited himself," "God-man" "Fully human and fully divine" "Tangible relationship" etc. these phrases are not in scripture and when you post them you are simply posting your interpretations of scripture, but not scripture itself.
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To be fair, many bible verses are elusive and up for interpretation. For example, you interpret them under the trinitarian methodology, others under the unitarian methodology.
You do post scripture at times yes, but when you type phrases like, "God limited himself," "God-man" "Fully human and fully divine" "Tangible relationship" etc. these phrases are not in scripture and when you post them you are simply posting your interpretations of scripture, but not scripture itself.
Agreed, the unitarian methodology is different, but this is a small sect of the vast whole that disagrees completely.
Agreed, I use my own terms, but that difference in expression or verbiage is still completely aligned with scripture. Christ demonstrates his humanity and divinity within scripture repeatedly. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit allows believers to more fully discern scripture, but we do have to study and study…the bible isn’t a “Dick and Jane” book….it’s vastly sweeping in scope, deeply historical and ultimately founded on love.
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lol loco if htere is anyone filtering information through a lens it would be you. Remember I was not born Muslim. I was and am open minded, otherwise I would have not read the bible in the first place or tried to be more religious as most people around me were irreligious and society generally is against religion, likewise with all the animosity and lies in the mainstream media I would have not read into Islam if i was not open minded to learn.
Now, as far as filtering information. Let me give you another proof that in fact it is you who filters information through a lens and not me.
Remember when I mentioned the dream of Jesus (pbuh) that I had? He said to me there is only one God. At the time I was studying christianity and the bible and was in conflict with church teachings about the trinity versus what I was finding in the bible. It was trinity vs pure monotheism in my mind. Bible vs church. Not Christianity vs Islam.
So to me everything as I read the bible kept pointing to monotheism and 'unitarianism' not trinitarianism.
Now YOU interpreted my dream as "oh clearly Jesus was saying he was God to you"
So who is the one actually using a preconceived lens? You are.
It's no different than if I was in your dream and said "There is only one God". Would you ascertain that I am God? Absolutely not. So you have preconcieved beliefs and are not actually reading the bible except the way you want to see it. Hence when it comes to even verses, you avoid verses which illustrate Jesus not being God and repeat elusive verses which you selectively interpret to justify your trinity beliefs.
As was stated.
Can you find a direct statement that "God gave up his powers" Anywhere in the bible OT or NT? Just this one thing can you?
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Agreed, the unitarian methodology is different, but this is a small sect of the vast whole that disagrees completely.
Agreed, I use my own terms, but that difference in expression or verbiage is still completely aligned with scripture. Christ demonstrates his humanity and divinity within scripture repeatedly. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit allows believers to more fully discern scripture, but we do have to study and study…the bible isn’t a “Dick and Jane” book….it’s vastly sweeping in scope, deeply historical and ultimately founded on love.
The bolded text = your opinion, which disagrees with mine.
The verbiage you use is not directly stated in the scripture, what you are typing is your interpretation of the scripture. If it is directly stated in the scripture, then like ahmed asked find a verse that says, "God gave up his powers" or "God limited himself" etc. These are your interpretations of scripture. Even Christians who state that they believe in the Trinity have different interpretations of these verses. Some interpret them to mean "Jesus is the son of God but not God himself" or "Jesus is not God but he had divine characteristics." I have these type of discussions with several Christians in my home-town, not online, and your verbiage is not used by any of them.
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What I did was point out what the verses are ACTUALLY saying including minute details such as "he", "you" which differentiate Jesus from God. Holy spirit guiding Jesus, etc... differentiation.
And me referencing the story narrative and the quotes that are used from deutoronomy and psalms. So I am not the one that's 'selective' or 'filtering' rather I am looking at it for what it says right there, not external forces.
External forces such as your personal beliefs "God-Man", "God gave up his powers". You are imposing these personal beliefs onto the verses which are not present in the verses.
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What I did was point out what the verses are ACTUALLY saying including minute details such as "he", "you" which differentiate Jesus from God. Holy spirit guiding Jesus, etc... differentiation.
And me referencing the story narrative and the quotes that are used from deutoronomy and psalms. So I am not the one that's 'selective' or 'filtering' rather I am looking at it for what it says right there, not external forces.
External forces such as your personal beliefs "God-Man", "God gave up his powers". You are imposing these personal beliefs onto the verses which are not present in the verses.
Again, my exact words are not in 2000 year old scripture, but the definite demonstration of these attributes is present. You can challenge my words from now until your death, but the concepts and demonstration in scripture is ever-present and fully validated.
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lol loco if htere is anyone filtering information through a lens it would be you. Remember I was not born Muslim. I was and am open minded, otherwise I would have not read the bible in the first place or tried to be more religious as most people around me were irreligious and society generally is against religion, likewise with all the animosity and lies in the mainstream media I would have not read into Islam if i was not open minded to learn.
Now, as far as filtering information. Let me give you another proof that in fact it is you who filters information through a lens and not me.
Remember when I mentioned the dream of Jesus (pbuh) that I had? He said to me there is only one God. At the time I was studying christianity and the bible and was in conflict with church teachings about the trinity versus what I was finding in the bible. It was trinity vs pure monotheism in my mind. Bible vs church. Not Christianity vs Islam.
So to me everything as I read the bible kept pointing to monotheism and 'unitarianism' not trinitarianism.
Now YOU interpreted my dream as "oh clearly Jesus was saying he was God to you"
So who is the one actually using a preconceived lens? You are.
It's no different than if I was in your dream and said "There is only one God". Would you ascertain that I am God? Absolutely not. So you have preconcieved beliefs and are not actually reading the bible except the way you want to see it. Hence when it comes to even verses, you avoid verses which illustrate Jesus not being God and repeat elusive verses which you selectively interpret to justify your trinity beliefs.
As was stated.
Can you find a direct statement that "God gave up his powers" Anywhere in the bible OT or NT? Just this one thing can you?
No, I did not provide a hard and fast definition for your dream. I did ask you if it was possible that your dream meant that God is one and Jesus is God. You disagreed and we left it at that.
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Again, my exact words are not in 2000 year old scripture, but the definite demonstration of these attributes is present. You can challenge my words from now until your death, but the concepts and demonstration in scripture is ever-present and fully validated.
Just a matter of your opinion vs. mine.
I can say,
"the definite demonstration of these attributes is not present. You can challenge my words from now until your death, but the concepts and demonstration in scripture is ever-present and fully validated."
Repeating over and over that your words are scriptural does not make it true.
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No, I did not provide a hard and fast definition for your dream. I did ask you if it was possible that your dream meant that God is one and Jesus is God. You disagreed and we left it at that.
So in other words you are the one that sees the world through a lens but you're accusing me of it.
What I'm saying is. I've presented the luke narrative for what it is. You are the one that's placing meaning on it where there is none.
Where in the bible does it say God gave up his powers ANYWHERE in the OT or NT
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A new low of desperation where you're resorting to pointing out spelling mistakes :-\
::)
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This is exactly why Islam rejects Jesus. Your "god" or Allah IS the devil, evil incarnate, and since Jesus resisted him unlike Mohammed, he must be discredited. Even though I question the divinity of Jesus myself, it does lessen the fact that Jesus was > then Mohammed due to what he taught.
And before I get the Christians on my back too:
I said question... as in I'm not sure if Jesus was a man or divine. I find it arrogant to claim we know for sure one way or the other. It's why I would claim to be a faithful agnostic more then anything else. I have faith we were put here for a purpose, but I don't claim to know how or why.
To me all that is important is the knowledge that good and evil exist and are real. Islam promotes evil... Christianity promotes good. Even though Assmed will cite 3000 years old incidents of Christians performing evil actions, it is not promoted. Unlike Islam which promotes and commits evil, but he will say its no Islam.
Ahh the irony.
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This is exactly why Islam rejects Jesus. Your "god" or Allah IS the devil, evil incarnate, and since Jesus resisted him unlike Mohammed, he must be discredited. Even though I question the divinity of Jesus myself, it does lessen the fact that Jesus was > then Mohammed due to what he taught.
And before I get the Christians on my back too:
I said question... as in I'm not sure if Jesus was a man or divine. I find it arrogant to claim we know for sure one way or the other. It's why I would claim to be a faithful agnostic more then anything else. I have faith we were put here for a purpose, but I don't claim to know how or why.
To me all that is important is the knowledge that good and evil exist and are real. Islam promotes evil... Christianity promotes good. Even though Assmed will cite 3000 years old incidents of Christians performing evil actions, it is not promoted. Unlike Islam which promotes and commits evil, but he will say its no Islam.
Ahh the irony.
It's okay Thick Nick! Not all Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God.
However, all Christians do agree that Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and will return some day according to the Bible. Our Muslim friends deny this, but they present no evidence to the contrary and ignore the abundance of Bible verses that clearly support this belief.
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It's okay Thick Nick! Not all Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God.
However, all Christians do agree that Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and will return some day according to the Bible. Our Muslim friends deny this, but they present no evidence to the contrary and ignore the abundance of Bible verses that clearly support this belief.
MOS will disagree with you there, if he stays consistent with his disagreement with me that Unitarians are still considered "Christians."
And have you ever wondered why not all Christians believe that Jesus is God? The answer is simple - because it doesn't make sense. You have some verses which can imply that Jesus is divine, then you have other verses that imply he is human, then you have this 325 years post-Jesus non-scriptural doctrine called the Trinity that tries to mend these two conflicting views into something that does not make sense. So every Christian has their own interpretation, yet some arrogantly claim that their interpretation is the only one which fits the definition of "Christianity," for example MOS even said that no Catholics are Christians.
Yesterday I was talking to a Christian and asked, "Do you believe Jesus is God? Jesus prays in the Bible. Who was he praying to, himself?" He goes, "No...Jesus is not God, but a "human vessel" which God entered into to live in earth." Like I said, everyone has their own interpretation and it usually requires non-scriptural phrases/beliefs, for example MOS has said, "God limited himself" even though nowhere does it say this in the Bible.
I'm not saying Christianity is all wrong - it came from the same God who sent the Qur'an to Muhammad. But because there are proven inconsistencies which people can't make sense of, due to lost, changed and added scripts (for ex. there are numerous versions of the Bible already) - why not check the Quran for clarification and see if it makes sense.
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This is exactly why Islam rejects Jesus. Your "god" or Allah IS the devil, evil incarnate, and since Jesus resisted him unlike Mohammed, he must be discredited. Even though I question the divinity of Jesus myself, it does lessen the fact that Jesus was > then Mohammed due to what he taught.
And before I get the Christians on my back too:
I said question... as in I'm not sure if Jesus was a man or divine. I find it arrogant to claim we know for sure one way or the other. It's why I would claim to be a faithful agnostic more then anything else. I have faith we were put here for a purpose, but I don't claim to know how or why.
To me all that is important is the knowledge that good and evil exist and are real. Islam promotes evil... Christianity promotes good. Even though Assmed will cite 3000 years old incidents of Christians performing evil actions, it is not promoted. Unlike Islam which promotes and commits evil, but he will say its no Islam.
Ahh the irony.
You are seriously misinformed. For starters, where does Islam "reject Jesus?" ??? You said yourself that Jesus may be a man, and that's exactly what we believe of him. We consider him one of the greatest five prophets (incl. Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad in no particular order, peace be upon them).
And what is your evidence that Jesus "resisted" Allah? Did you even know that Arab Christians use the name "Allah" for God as this is simply the Arabic word for God. Take an Arabic Bible and it will have Allah written all over it. Yet you think Jesus resisted Him ::) Jesus prayed like we do today as Muslims (with face on the ground, like in Matthew 26:39), and his mother Mary wore a hijab like Muslim women do today. There's a whole chapter of the Qur'an named after Mary.
You say you're not sure if Jesus is human or divine, so you're satisfied in following a faith which does not answer something so fundamental?
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MOS will disagree with you there, if he stays consistent with his disagreement with me that Unitarians are still considered "Christians."
And have you ever wondered why not all Christians believe that Jesus is God? The answer is simple - because it doesn't make sense. You have some verses which can imply that Jesus is divine, then you have other verses that imply he is human, then you have this 325 years post-Jesus non-scriptural doctrine called the Trinity that tries to mend these two conflicting views into something that does not make sense. So every Christian has their own interpretation, yet some arrogantly claim that their interpretation is the only one which fits the definition of "Christianity," for example MOS even said that no Catholics are Christians.
Yesterday I was talking to a Christian and asked, "Do you believe Jesus is God? Jesus prays in the Bible. Who was he praying to, himself?" He goes, "No...Jesus is not God, but a "human vessel" which God entered into to live in earth." Like I said, everyone has their own interpretation and it usually requires non-scriptural phrases/beliefs, for example MOS has said, "God limited himself" even though nowhere does it say this in the Bible.
I'm not saying Christianity is all wrong - it came from the same God who sent the Qur'an to Muhammad. But because there are proven inconsistencies which people can't make sense of, due to lost, changed and added scripts (for ex. there are numerous versions of the Bible already) - why not check the Quran for clarification and see if it makes sense.
Yes, I deny that unitarians are actually Christians.
Unitarians actually now refer to themselves as Unitarian Universalists and it was stated that a large percent of the population no longer identify with or refer to themselves as Christians. The reality is, we're comparing Unitarians with Trinitarians with Islamic assumption that Unitarianism is a significant, divergent portion of the whole of "Christianity". My position has been that although I do not deny the existence and/or growth of unitarians that I don't agree that their belief are significant as compared to the whole.
In 2002, America and Canada had a total Unitarian Universalist population of 234,000. In the 90s it was determined that the worldwide population of Unitarians was upwards of 600,000 members. So, I considered a generous growth rate of +230% and said let's say the current Unitarians Universalist worldwide population is 2,000,000. Then let's compare that to the worldwide Trinitarian population that adhere to Nicene Creed (Protestant, East Ortho and Catholic) which was estimated at between approximately 2,181,000,000 and 1,999,000,000 members only a couple of years ago (notice I don't refer to this population as total Christianity). I decided to average the two census estimates and arrive at a comparative base of 2,090,000,000 members (no additional growth rate considered...which is approx 1.3% to 1.5% annaully for "Christianity").
Sorry, did some quick math in the image below and didn't get to check it, but you get the point. In order for Unitarians to make an impact upon Trinitarian belief you have to severely inflate the Unitarian numbers (whose base is already inflated) to grossly fallcious heigts and then severely deflate the current trinitarian population in a grossly fallacious manner to show a total unitarian percentage that is even worth considering.
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MOS will disagree with you there, if he stays consistent with his disagreement with me that Unitarians are still considered "Christians."
And have you ever wondered why not all Christians believe that Jesus is God? The answer is simple - because it doesn't make sense. You have some verses which can imply that Jesus is divine, then you have other verses that imply he is human, then you have this 325 years post-Jesus non-scriptural doctrine called the Trinity that tries to mend these two conflicting views into something that does not make sense. So every Christian has their own interpretation, yet some arrogantly claim that their interpretation is the only one which fits the definition of "Christianity," for example MOS even said that no Catholics are Christians.
Yesterday I was talking to a Christian and asked, "Do you believe Jesus is God? Jesus prays in the Bible. Who was he praying to, himself?" He goes, "No...Jesus is not God, but a "human vessel" which God entered into to live in earth." Like I said, everyone has their own interpretation and it usually requires non-scriptural phrases/beliefs, for example MOS has said, "God limited himself" even though nowhere does it say this in the Bible.
I'm not saying Christianity is all wrong - it came from the same God who sent the Qur'an to Muhammad. But because there are proven inconsistencies which people can't make sense of, due to lost, changed and added scripts (for ex. there are numerous versions of the Bible already) - why not check the Quran for clarification and see if it makes sense.
I was born and raised in a country with a population that is 99% Roman Catholic. I grew up Southern Baptist and believing, like MOS, that Roman Catholics are not Christians. Now I believe differently for my own reasons. That in itself can make for a very long discussion that is not relevant to this thread.
Just because many believe that Jesus is not God, it does not automatically follow that Jesus isn't God. Truth is not a Democracy.
Christians do agree that, according to the Bible, Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and will return some day.
The numerous versions of the Bible in numerous languages do not change the main message. I have read many of them, in different languages and that is yet another piece of evidence to me that the Bible is indeed the inerrant word of God.
I have actually been wanting to read the Qur'an for many years, and I did actually start reading it at the library at the university I attended many years ago. I admit I got bored and sleepy and quit reading it, but I still want to finish it some day, in English or in Spanish...forget that Arabic stuff.
I know forum discussions can seem ugly and confrontational, but in real life I actually had many good Muslim friends, male and female, in college. We got along great and that is probably one of the reasons I took an interest in reading the Qur'an to begin with. I personally believe that's the way it should be, freedom of religion for all. Christians are commanded by Jesus to spread the Gospel, but that doesn't mean we should force it on anyone. And it doesn't mean we can't be friends with everyone, whether they are Christian, Jew, Muslim or Atheist.
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I was born and raised in a country with a population that is 99% Roman Catholic. I grew up Southern Baptist and believing, like MOS, that Roman Catholics are not Christians. Now I believe differently for my own reasons. That in itself can make for a very long discussion that is not relevant to this thread.
Just because many believe that Jesus is not God, it does not automatically follow that Jesus isn't God. Truth is not a Democracy.
Christians do agree that, according to the Bible, Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and will return some day.
The numerous versions of the Bible in numerous languages do not change the main message. I have read many of them, in different languages and that is yet another piece of evidence to me that the Bible is indeed the inerrant word of God.
I have actually been wanting to read the Qur'an for many years, and I did actually start reading it at the library at the university I attended many years ago. I admit I got bored and sleepy and quit reading it, but I still want to finish it some day, in English or in Spanish...forget that Arabic stuff.
I know forum discussions can seem ugly and confrontational, but in real life I actually had many good Muslim friends, male and female, in college. We got along great and that is probably one of the reasons I took an interest in reading the Qur'an to begin with. I personally believe that's the way it should be, freedom of religion for all. Christians are commanded by Jesus to spread the Gospel, but that doesn't mean we should force it on anyone. And it doesn't mean we can't be friends with everyone, whether they are Christian, Jew, Muslim or Atheist.
Good post loco. I feel the same way in that I don't judge anyone for their beliefs and you'll probably be surprised by this but my wife is a Christian. Of course I do intend to bring her to Islam :) But that doesn't create any animosity between us and there's no ultimatum given.
I do want to point out one thing which struck out at me from your post.
You said, a) many believe that Jesus is not God, and
b) The numerous versions of the Bible in numerous languages do not change the main message
Now don't you think that such a significant fundamental disagreement over whether Jesus, the most influential character in the NT, is God or human, is considered as part of the "main message"? What then is the "main message" if there's disagreement over such a a "main" factor?
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Yes, I deny that unitarians are actually Christians.
Unitarians actually now refer to themselves as Unitarian Universalists and it was stated that a large percent of the population no longer identify with or refer to themselves as Christians. The reality is, we're comparing Unitarians with Trinitarians with Islamic assumption that Unitarianism is a significant, divergent portion of the whole of "Christianity". My position has been that although I do not deny the existence and/or growth of unitarians that I don't agree that their belief are significant as compared to the whole.
In 2002, America and Canada had a total Unitarian Universalist population of 234,000. In the 90s it was determined that the worldwide population of Unitarians was upwards of 600,000 members. So, I considered a generous growth rate of +230% and said let's say the current Unitarians Universalist worldwide population is 2,000,000. Then let's compare that to the worldwide Trinitarian population that adhere to Nicene Creed (Protestant, East Ortho and Catholic) which was estimated at between approximately 2,181,000,000 and 1,999,000,000 members only a couple of years ago (notice I don't refer to this population as total Christianity). I decided to average the two census estimates and arrive at a comparative base of 2,090,000,000 members (no additional growth rate considered...which is approx 1.3% to 1.5% annaully for "Christianity").
Sorry, did some quick math in the image below and didn't get to check it, but you get the point. In order for Unitarians to make an impact upon Trinitarian belief you have to severely inflate the Unitarian numbers (whose base is already inflated) to grossly fallcious heigts and then severely deflate the current trinitarian population in a grossly fallacious manner to show a total unitarian percentage that is even worth considering.
I was just pointing out to loco that his beliefs were in conflict with yours regarding who is considered a Christian or not. Unitarians aside, regardless of their # or precentage among Christians, you don't consider Catholics to be Christian either and they are a very significant portion of the total "Christian population." Also, just because individuals don't identify themselves as "Unitarian" does not mean they definitely believe in the Trinity or Jesus' divinity. For example Thick Nick said he's unsure of whether Jesus is man or divine, however he would not be included in your stats about the # of Unitarians.
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I was just pointing out to loco that his beliefs were in conflict with yours regarding who is considered a Christian or not. Unitarians aside, regardless of their # or precentage among Christians, you don't consider Catholics to be Christian either and they are a very significant portion of the total "Christian population." Also, just because individuals don't identify themselves as "Unitarian" does not mean they definitely believe in the Trinity or Jesus' divinity. For example Thick Nick said he's unsure of whether Jesus is man or divine, however he would not be included in your stats about the # of Unitarians.
Notice I didn't say total Christian population, I compared total Unitarians to total Trinitarians (those that belief in Father, Son, Spirit) and Catholics are Trinitarians.
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Notice I didn't say total Christian population, I compared total Unitarians to total Trinitarians (those that belief in Father, Son, Spirit) and Catholics are Trinitarians.
But you said Catholics are not Chrsitian? So you're using non-Christians in your statistics when it helps :)
Anyway my point wasn't the # or percentage of Christians with various beliefs, but the fact that there are various beliefs and confusion over extremely fundamental issues.
The # of those who identify themselves as "Unitarian" is irrelevant because a) many mainstream christians who do not call themselves "Unitarian" do not believe in the Trinity as you do.
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Good post loco. I feel the same way in that I don't judge anyone for their beliefs and you'll probably be surprised by this but my wife is a Christian. Of course I do intend to bring her to Islam :) But that doesn't create any animosity between us and there's no ultimatum given.
I do want to point out one thing which struck out at me from your post.
You said, a) many believe that Jesus is not God, and
b) The numerous versions of the Bible in numerous languages do not change the main message
Now don't you think that such a significant fundamental disagreement over whether Jesus, the most influential character in the NT, is God or human, is considered as part of the "main message"? What then is the "main message" if there's disagreement over such a a "main" factor?
Thanks bigbobs! That's nice, that your wife is a Christian. Who knows, maybe she will bring your to Christianity. :)
What then is the "main message"?
That God sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to die for ours sins, that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, that he ascended into Heaven, and that he will return, that we must follow Jesus and preach this Gospel to all nations.
That is the message, and it is the same across Bible versions and languages.
By the way, Muslims do have serious disagreements among themselves when it comes to Jesus, about the crucifixion, about his "death" and about his return. I will start separate threads on this later.
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Thanks bigbobs! That's nice, that your wife is a Christian. Who knows, maybe she will bring your to Christianity. :)
What then is the "main message"?
That God sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to die for ours sins, that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, that he ascended into Heaven, and that he will return, that we must follow Jesus and preach this Gospel to all nations.
That is the message, and it is the same across Bible versions and languages.
By the way, Muslims do have serious disagreements among themselves when it comes to Jesus, about the crucifixion, about his "death" and about his return. I will start separate threads on this later.
I don't know, that's for you guys to answer. IMO there is no clear "main message" because the differences in beliefs among Christians are so fundamental. Something like whether the most significant character in the NT (Jesus) is God or not is infinitely more fundamental than the differences of beliefs within Muslims. The Quran clearly states that God is one, begets not, nor is he begotten, and clearly states that prophets were the best of men and not divine. Depending which Christian you ask, you will get a different response as to what the "main message" is. However, ask any Muslim what the "main message" of Islam is and it's simple and unified - one God, no Trinity, human prophets, our purpose in life is to submit to God, etc.
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I am still waiting on that verse that says that God gave up his powers either from OT or NT. :P
Because with all due respect MOS, just how you said in the original response of yours to me, how this new fella is saying too, "absolute", "plainest terms", "totally scriptural". You make allegations and absolute statements which actually are not from the bible.
God-man, God giving up powers, etc... this are your own assertions. However you will not find such things in the bible. I still request kindly that you provide me verses stating God gave up his powers.
Otherwise yet again it proves only that your own conjured beliefs are what are driving your interpretation of the bible.
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I don't know, that's for you guys to answer. IMO there is no clear "main message" because the differences in beliefs among Christians are so fundamental. Something like whether the most significant character in the NT (Jesus) is God or not is infinitely more fundamental than the differences of beliefs within Muslims. The Quran clearly states that God is one, begets not, nor is he begotten, and clearly states that prophets were the best of men and not divine. Depending which Christian you ask, you will get a different response as to what the "main message" is. However, ask any Muslim what the "main message" of Islam is and it's simple and unified - one God, no Trinity, human prophets, our purpose in life is to submit to God, etc.
I have noticed a pattern here over time. Muslims seem to think that the deity of Jesus Christ is the most important thing to Christianity. Or maybe the most important thing to Muslims is to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Muslims may never understand this, but that isn't the most important thing to Christianity.
Just as important is the belief that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father to die for our sins, that he rose from the dead, that he will return and that by putting our faith in Jesus Christ, we are saved.
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I have noticed a pattern here over time. Muslims seem to think that the deity of Jesus Christ is the most important thing to Christianity. Or maybe the most important thing to Muslims is to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Muslims may never understand this, but that isn't the most important thing to Christianity.
Just as important is the belief that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father to die for our sins, that he rose from the dead, that he will return and that by putting our faith in Jesus Christ, we are saved.
I never said Jesus' being God or Human is the most important thing to Christianity, what I said it is it's a fundamental significant issue which is not agreed upon by Christians.
And re: "dying for our sins" that's a whole other topic altogether and something which does not make sense to me and is not something a just God would allow or require.
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I never said Jesus' being God or Human is the most important thing to Christianity, what I said it is it's a fundamental significant issue which is not agreed upon by Christians.
And re: "dying for our sins" that's a whole other topic altogether and something which does not make sense to me and is not something a just God would allow or require.
I believe you misunderstood me when I said that just because "many" believe that Jesus is not God, it does not automatically follow that Jesus isn't God. Truth is not a Democracy.
When I said many, I did not mean many Christians. What I meant was that many people, Jews, Muslims, atheists, and Unitarians, do not believe in the deity of Jesus. That doesn't mean it isn't true.
I still say that I have noticed what's most important to Muslims is denying the deity of Jesus. I only say that based on what I have seen on this board.
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I believe you misunderstood me when I said that just because "many" believe that Jesus is not God, it does not automatically follow that Jesus isn't God. Truth is not a Democracy.
When I said many, I did not mean many Christians. What I meant was that many people, Jews, Muslims, atheists, and Unitarians, do not believe in the deity of Jesus. That doesn't mean it isn't true.
I still say that I have noticed what's most important to Muslims is denying the deity of Jesus. I only say that based on what I have seen on this board.
I didn't misunderstand. I did not take your "many believe that Jesus is not God" as evidence that Jesus is not God. All I meant is that the Christianity has differences in core fundamental beliefs, Islam does not.
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I am still waiting on that verse that says that God gave up his powers either from OT or NT. :P
Because with all due respect MOS, just how you said in the original response of yours to me, how this new fella is saying too, "absolute", "plainest terms", "totally scriptural". You make allegations and absolute statements which actually are not from the bible.
God-man, God giving up powers, etc... this are your own assertions. However you will not find such things in the bible. I still request kindly that you provide me verses stating God gave up his powers.
Otherwise yet again it proves only that your own conjured beliefs are what are driving your interpretation of the bible.
Well I agree that all of my words are not in the OT or NT and I agree that verses of scripture are more easily interpreted by some than others. Me personally, I gotta study and study.....always have, probably always will. Some folks are gifted with discernment by the Holy Spirit, me probably not so much LOL!! Although, once I put the pieces together topics get seared into my brain. When I attempt to put things in my own words I don't add things to the scripture, but I concede that sometimes I'm more articulate than at others. We can make clear inferences and definite conclusions about things in scripture based upon how things were clearly and repeatedly demonstrated. Honestly, if Christ had said, "I AM GOD!!! WORSHIP ME!!" it wouldn't have been as effective as were high visible demonstrations of both his humanity and divinity while at the same time forcing people to think about and ponder his words. I mean, the disciples questioned and repeated things he just said to them over and over.....we're pretty dense as humans LOL. The disciples were just a pack of dudes, fisherman and laypersons.....they weren't extremely intelligent (well some more than others). Scripture has required me to read, study, reread, read others books for more understanding, pray, reread again LOL, pray more, read a secondary book from someone smarter than me....ad nauseum. You know as soon as I wrote "God-man" yesterday I knew y'all would strike at that, but I thought, "hey, it's absolutely true though."
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Judaism is a Satanic cult because it rejects Jesus Christ and who is he that is Antichrist but he that denies Jesus? Judaism doesn't even follow the law of God because it rejects its own teaching that Christ is the Messiah. Instead of calling me names I don't even understand or talking illogically why not research the facts more?
Personally, I don't classify Muslims and Jews as Satanic. Now certainly I agree that any religion that denies Christ is of the antiChrist, but think I that applies to the theology and not the people. The theology is antiChrist in nature and isn't changing, but people can change. God loves all of us and desires for everyone of his precious creation to draw close to his will for their lives. I don't for one minute think ahmed, bigbobs, true, etc....are Satanists or even remotely bad men LOL! They're all highly intelligent and passionate about their beliefs and I honestly believe they choose mercy and respect and integrity over the more extremist members of Islam that resort to violence and hatred. I defend them because I belief them to be good men, but unfortunately I can't align myself with the Islamic theology they support. My heart completely desires for them to accept Christ because I know what absolute powerful witnesses for Christ they could be.....POWERFUL. Trust me, ahmed, bigbobs, true, loco, myself....we don't always get along LOL (an understatement at times), but I don't think for a minute they align with Satanic qualities even though I do agree that Islam is anti Christ. Sorry to jump on you like that, but I don't want to see a new board member that's a believer in Christ to assume the worst about the Muslim members of this board....it just ain't so.
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Personally, I don't classify Muslims and Jews as Satanic. Now certainly I agree that any religion that denies Christ is of the antiChrist, but think I that applies to the theology and not the people. The theology is antiChrist in nature and isn't changing, but people can change.
You are either missing the point or are being deliberately mendacious. Since these false religions are clearly Antichrist in nature as you yourself conceded all adherents thereto must be Satanic as well because that is the creed they have adopted and that is thus a part of them! What you're saying is that just because a devil worshipper/Satanist has Satanic beliefs doesn't mean he's of the devil. Clearly your thinking skills need improving if you still can't see that Muslims and Jews are antichrist/Satanic because that is what they are, deniers of Christ! And who is he that is antichrist that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?