Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: romeo on December 14, 2005, 06:14:22 PM
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I have noticed that male gymansts when working the bars and the rings have massive arms and delts. In fact they look pysically awesome.
presumably they wouldnt be in the habit of actually aiming to gain mass other than to get stronger. But it looks as though they have a fair amount of mass on them, although granted their bf% must be quite low.
so what kind of exercises do they do to look like that?? and what can we do in the gym to mirror that kind of training, all i can think of is dips?
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I read somewhere(on t-nation i think) that they only do body-weight exercises for their upperbody.
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This is an interview (from T-Nation) with a gymnast coach. Should help to answer your questions about what gymnasts do and don't do in regards to exercises.
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-080-feature
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I was (believe or not) a gymnast from 3rd grade to 8th grade. In fact I was the Southern California Junior High Champion. I weighed about 120 then. I was doing iron crosses and giants when no one else was doing them in my age range. I went to the So.uth Bay Academy of Gymnastics in Torrance. We never lifted weights only exercises with our own bodyweight. Allot of bar work and floor work will get you very strong.
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that article makes me want to get back to playing on monkey bars and rings. i always loved that stuff, and i can make you strong as fuck too!
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I seem to recall the_Hater claiming bodyweight exercises couldn't put on muscle. ::)
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=35336.0
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If you were fortunate enough to see this performance, you'd be in awe at he tremendous strength these guys have.
http://www.getbig.com/pics/arnold/2004/misc/brothers.htm
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High volume. High frequency. Low intensity.
YIP
Zack
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well most gymnasts obviously have the genetics for it, or they wouldnt be gymnasts, and they have a lifetime of working out since they start at an early age. Most are from what i understand pretty short too, which both work as an advantage in different exercises and give a certain look.
i agree that they do look phenomenal, at least their upper bodies, not sure about their legs though as from what i understand it would be no benefit for them to have big legs.
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Physically awesome, yes,
but also short, small, light, very wrong body -> small legs, tremendous arms. The muscles are clearly visible by the low bodyfat, but that's it. Nothing to be jealous of.
Ever seen a 6,2" tall gymnast weighing 240lbs. Don't think so.
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Further verification that weights aren't essential to build an excellent physique that many prefer. Gymnasts & rowers have some of the best physiques.
To get more size than that resistance bands can be incorporated.
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forget the massive arms and delts. it is their abs i find awesome.
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As strong as Coleman is and the other pros not one of them could pull off one of those moves the brothers do. Those guys are unreal.
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I've been to Circus 'Ole (butchered the spelling) and shows like it in Vegas a few times and have been blown away from those feats of balance & strength by those gymnast. Also saw the show from China.... unbelieveable. That would be the body prefered by most men , not the Mr. O type. And I think a lot of women would like a body,close and next to them, like that (for the weekend anyway)
If anyone did only dips & chins as their only upper body workout , twice or three times a week, they would achieve a very large chest/back/delts/traps/triceps/biceps and outstanding abs. Of course weight (by way of a belt, chain, etc) would be added as they progressed and got stronger. Some people complain about not having enought equipment for a good workout. They would be very surprised at what a dipping and chinning bar could accomplish in the way of size & power if they approached them with serious intent. Good Luck.
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Dips, Chins and they also do hand stand push-ups off of dumbbells. That will build your shoulders.
I understand them having huge delts & tri's but what about the huge Biceps on these little guys. Close grip Pull-ups maybe?
The Rings are always cool to watch.
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I've been to Circus 'Ole (butchered the spelling)
haha sorry mate, it's Cirque de Soleil...it's french. "Circus of the Sun". Anyways though i agree with your post, i think 160 lbs is not much to move when you're benching, but when you're suspended by your arms on two free moving rings dangling 15 feet above the ground, you can get pretty jacked. All fast twitch fibers too, so obv. much more growth potential.
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I understand them having huge delts & tri's but what about the huge Biceps on these little guys. Close grip Pull-ups maybe?
If you check out that article I posted above, the coach being interviewed indicated that their extreme bicep development comes from the straight arm work they do (iron crosses on rings, etc.), not a "curling" movement.
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So should I do 1" BB curls with 315 and just hold it there for as long as I can?
I think they're curling their bodyweight in a variety of ways throughout all of the different events they do.
I wish I got into that when I was younger, always respected them.
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So should I do 1" BB curls with 315 and just hold it there for as long as I can?
I think they're curling their bodyweight in a variety of ways throughout all of the different events they do.
From the article:
"T-Nation: Wait a sec, these guys with the killer biceps don't do barbell and dumbbell curls?
Sommer: No, not a single one! In fact, their amazing biceps development isn't the result of any kind of curling movement at all, but primarily due to the straight arm leverage work which they do on the still rings.
The straight-arm work is enormously difficult and puts tremendous strain on the biceps resulting in incredible growth. The key to success is being able to approach these exercises in a safe progressive manner.
T-Nation: What do you mean exactly by straight-arm work?
Sommer: By straight-arm work I'm primarily referring to the classic strength positions on the still rings (iron cross, planche, maltese, etc.) and the connecting movements between them.
Straight arm work basically means moving the body without the advantage of bending the joints. Essentially then, by increasing the length of the lever, we greatly magnify the intensity of the exercise.
A case in point would be a cross pull (basically a straight arm pull-up where the arms pull out to the sides) compared to a regular pull-up. The bodyweight is the same in both cases; however, the cross pull is several orders of magnitude harder than the pull-up, resulting in significantly higher strength and muscle gains.
Now consider that I had one teammate in college who could hold an iron cross with 60 pounds hanging on his feet and you begin to get an idea of the incredible strength of some of the high level gymnasts. By the way, this same gymnast had an upper body that was incredibly large and ripped!"
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Correct me if I'm wrong, to perform Cross Pull:
1. Hang from rings, arms straight up and locked ?
2. Without unlocking arms, go in an iron cross ?
3. Without unlocking arms, bring arms to your sides ?
-If this is true, what about for the millions of us that can't currently do an iron cross?
-Is there an exercise to work up to this? maybe cable crossovers to the sides, straight arms of course.
-Hard to believe that would work your biceps.
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extreme bicep development comes from the straight arm work they do
It's more than that-the motions they do are 360 degrees in nature, so all upper body muscles are involved at some points as the body rotates. Bis are used when pulling themselves up into starting position on the rings, and while spinning in up-and-down motion on the rings to gain speed, prior to dismount-all muscles are eventually used because the motions are never limited to one plane.
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It's more than that-the motions they do are 360 degrees in nature, so all upper body muscles are involved at some points as the body rotates. Bis are used when pulling themselves up into starting position on the rings, and while spinning in up-and-down motion on the rings to gain speed, prior to dismount-all muscles are eventually used because the motions are never limited to one plane.
Sure, it's not the ONLY reason. And, the coach interviewed does say the straight arm work is "primarily" the reason for that development.
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He claims it's the primary reason. I doubt it; I think he's guessing.
He's completely wrong in claiming that there are no curling motions-most of them happen so quickly as just part of being in motion that it might not be obvious, such as when moving into and holding a position upside down on the rings-serious bicep work.
Just because it's in print or online or someone says it doesn't make it so.
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He claims it's the primary reason. I doubt it; I think he's guessing.
He's completely wrong in claiming that there are no curling motions-most of them happen so quickly as just part of being in motion that it might not be obvious, such as when moving into and holding a position upside down on the rings-serious bicep work.
Just because it's in print or online or someone says it doesn't make it so.
What leads you to believe he's guessing? Just curious. Also, he doesn't claim that there are no curling motions. Of course there are to an extent. He said the gymnasts' development is not the result of curling motions, in response to the question of whether or not they do barbell or dumbbell curls.
Who knows. I wasn't a gymnast nor have I worked with them or seen the way they train day in and day out for years as someone like he has.
Also, personally I'm not trying to say that some of those curling movements 'don't' have an effect. And again, I'm certainly in no position to try and break down what percentage of a gymnast's bicep development is due to straight arm work and what percentage curling motions account for. ;)
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I'm not sure why you're hung up on defending his position through the use of semantics, as in the case of curls-i read his comments. It's fairly obvious that shifting bodyweight quickly through space requires the rigorous use of all upper body muscles. Apparent to me and I think to others that they are in fact doing curl variations as part of wide ranges of motions.
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I'm not sure why you're hung up on defending his position through the use of semantics, as in the case of curls-i read his comments. It's fairly obvious that shifting bodyweight quickly through space requires the rigorous use of all upper body muscles. Apparent to me and I think to others that they are in fact doing curl variations as part of wide ranges of motions.
Fair enough.
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One of the prime functions of the bicep is to twist the hand, wrist and forearm as well as bringing the lower arm in and towards the body (curling towards= rows, up-rows, chins, actual curling, etc). If you punch a heavy bag the correct way or practice martial art fist/palm strikes you will be twisting the arm in it's natural path, which affects the bicep strongly and where you gain the most power. Still rings, high bar, parallel bars, mounting horse and even floor exercises demand much from the biceps in the way of actuall curling (even partial), static holds and negative releases. Most of the muscle fiber (think of them as little cables, the more muscle stress the more cables are called into action) becomes much stronger and larger, due not only to the workload put upon it but the increases circulation (better blood supply) which feeds the muscles with a ready supple of freshed nurishment. So gymnast get super strong while also gaining quality muscle mass. Straight arm work will call upon the bicep/tricep's strongly but not to the extent of being responsible for major bicep muscle growth. I can never say that any one is completely wrong about anythig, so prehaps the coach was misqoited and just has a different view on matters.
I've suggest this before quite a few time; using gymnastic rings or the one's that can turn 360 degrees, are a superior way to build outstanding lats because they follow the natural strength curve of a overhead pulling/chinning motion. Much easier on the wrist, elbow and shoulder joints. Also one of my better result producing workouts in the past was to SS chins with Dips. Covers just about all the major upper body muscle groups. I have always favored weighted dips over flat or incline presses for chest/delt/arm mass, but that's just how my body respones. Everyone has different results from different methods. Good Luck.
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One of the prime functions of the bicep is to twist the hand, wrist and forearm as well as bringing the lower arm in and towards the body (curling towards= rows, up-rows, chins, actual curling, etc). If you punch a heavy bag the correct way or practice martial art fist/palm strikes you will be twisting the arm in it's natural path, which affects the bicep strongly and where you gain the most power. Still rings, high bar, parallel bars, mounting horse and even floor exercises demand much from the biceps in the way of actuall curling (even partial), static holds and negative releases. Most of the muscle fiber (think of them as little cables, the more muscle stress the more cables are called into action) becomes much stronger and larger, due not only to the workload put upon it but the increases circulation (better blood supply) which feeds the muscles with a ready supple of freshed nurishment. So gymnast get super strong while also gaining quality muscle mass. Straight arm work will call upon the bicep/tricep's strongly but not to the extent of being responsible for major bicep muscle growth. I can never say that any one is completely wrong about anythig, so prehaps the coach was misqoited and just has a different view on matters.
I've suggest this before quite a few time; using gymnastic rings or the one's that can turn 360 degrees, are a superior way to build outstanding lats because they follow the natural strength curve of a overhead pulling/chinning motion. Much easier on the wrist, elbow and shoulder joints. Also one of my better result producing workouts in the past was to SS chins with Dips. Covers just about all the major upper body muscle groups. I have always favored weighted dips over flat or incline presses for chest/delt/arm mass, but that's just how my body respones. Everyone has different results from different methods. Good Luck.
Good points, JPM.
I'm also partial to doing very little direct arm training, and believe heavy weighted dips and chin-ups have contributed a good deal to my arm growth over the past couple years.
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Whoa guys, straight arm exercises are the basis for building the HIGH strength and mass on the biceps that gymnasts have. None of the apparatus really require any bicep work except rings. All of floor, high bar, parallel bars, pommel horse and vault require that your arms be straighted or pushed which uses the triceps and not biceps at all. Of course, pullups and rope climbs will stimulate growth in the biceps, but not to the extent at which you can make your arms that big and strong as gymnasts have. Coach Sommer definitely knows what he is talking about when he said it is straight arm movements. For example:
(http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/04-080-feature/image004.jpg)
Iron Cross. With the cross, you are supposed to rotate your shoulders foward so that your biceps are facing partly down which, in a straight arm movement will stress the biceps big time. Just think, if you're doing preacher curls how hard it is to do them going with your arms all the way to straight. Imagine holding half your bodyweight with a straight arm.
(http://www.yurivangelder.nl/fotoboek/Mooi/Yuri%20van%20Gelder-bb.jpg)
Planche/straddle planche. Straight arm bicep work. About 50% of your weight depending on the lever angle of the user's planche. So 25% of your weight each arm.
(http://www.southcn.com/sports/nfs/moment/200503310271_975054.jpg)
Maltese (half your bodyweight straight arm position in each arm)
(http://www.yurivangelder.nl/fotoboek/Mooi/yuri-ringen3-groot.jpg)
Inverted cross (half bodyweight also).
Yeah, there really are no bent arm movements in gymnastics that require biceps. Straight arm movements and training up to them are developing gymnasts biceps alone. :)
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Do gymnasts lift weights? I don't know, but during the 90s Olympic games in the US, I was working out at the gym at a university. I looked around and I saw about 5 guys working out with their shirts off. They all looked similar, about same height and same build. They looked like smaller versions of Lee Priest, with very impressive physiques. Soon after that, they all put their shirts and jackets back on and left. The jackets said Ukraine on the back. After I was done with my workout, I walked by the indoor basketball court, which was filled with gymnastics equipment that day. I saw those guys and some girls practicing gymnastics. They were the Ukraine Olympic gymnastics team. Of course, this does not mean that they built those physiques by lifting weights, but they do lift weights, at least some.
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Very inmporatnt with the Iron Cross is that your wrists are slightly bent. To many people when they first try the Cross with no coaching try to do it with straight wrists and get discouraged when they can't do it. This slight bent helps a whole lot.
And in most of the gymnastics events (parrallel bars, high bar, rings, even the horse) you are judged by how straight you can keep your arms. Bending your arms get mark downs
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straight arm exercises are the basis for building the HIGH strength and mass on the biceps that gymnasts have.
They're but one factor. Curl-type motions are used frequently in transitioning between various ring positions and are at least as intense. Static holds in various curl positions are another huge one.
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They're but one factor. Curl-type motions are used frequently in transitioning between various ring positions and are at least as intense. Static holds in various curl positions are another huge one.
No, not really. It is all straight arm work.
Case in point:
Jordan Jovtchev's Rings at the Olympics (http://www.wam.umd.edu/~slow/elt/pommels/Jovtchev,%20Jordan%20-%20SR%20-%20Olympics04%20EF%202nd%209.85.avi) (about 9 mb).
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Blah, blah. Of course all muscles are used through a variety of angles; it's not based just on one particular motion like crosses. Common sense man.
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how do i replicate those movements in the gym? pull ups and dips?
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Have to agree with Pumpster, most muscle groups are called upon through a variety of angles in any movement, an opposite muscle will always be involved on some level. . Your using biceps when pressing by the simple fact that it's in accord with stablelizing the bar throughout the pressing and the biceps also aid's when lowering the bar. And anyone doing a still ring or high bar routine are going from one position to another, which will involve the triceps/biceps almost like a giant SS. Any one ever done a heavy straight arm pullover can feel the affect on the biceps as well as the triceps. With the above movements your also going to get a terrific ab & lower back workout.
If you want to replicate the gymnastic movements than do what they do, chins & dips using many different hand positions in the workout. Can also try straight arm pullovers & DB flys (which can be felt strongly in the biceps). I've suggested this delt movement before; press a pair of light DB overhead than lower them slowly (negative) to the sides as if you were doing a reverse laterial raise. Try for 10-12 reps, can be a killer for the whole shoulder girdle. Warm-up very well before doing these press/laterials. Good Luck.
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If you guys insist ::). I'm just going by what I know because I am actually training these movements, and it is the straight arm work that is building the biceps, not any bent arm movements. Heck, the only bent arm stuff I do on rings would be a press to handstand, and that is all triceps. A stabilizer might be the biceps, but it is not worked enough to stimulate any growth at all. The biceps are only used extensively on rings in the straight arm position and that is the only thing that has given me any growth at all for them. Hate to break it to you, but I think experience here is the key to actually knowing what is going on.
BTW JPM, high bar requires virtually no strength at all. I don't know where you are getting that it requires a lot from. Heck, pbars and pommel horse don't even require that much strength besides in the deltoids.
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Braindx: Don't recall saying that the high bar programs required a lot of strength only. Parallel bar,still rings, the horse, ect require stamina (endurance & strength), that I will say, as does the high bar. Static contraction and negative movements play an important role, which I also stated. All these affects go towards building bicep/tricep/ delts or whatever muscle groups are recuited in gymstics. Good Luck.
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I still disagree... and the reason for that is because most competitive gymnastics programs that require the kids to be there 15-20 hours a week and elite programs where you are there anywhere from 25-35 hours per week have their kids/gymnasts spending about 1/5 of that time conditioning and doing strength training. The actually apparatus themselves don't require much strength at all besides still rings. When I was training competitively for 4.5 hours for 4-5 times a week at least the last hour of every practice was spent on conditioning and strength training. I don't see why if the apparatus themselves required so much strength that we would spend that amount of time on strength and conditioning. If what you say is true, we should have overtrained MANY times over and we did not. Most of gymnastics skills are more about technique than strength. Heck, practiaclly all of high bar is technique. There really is no strength required there.
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The high bar takes an incredible amount of hand strength. The g-force generated is tremendous, so forearms are very important. Abs and all round core strength is a must in the bars and all events. The only time biceps are used on the rings is at the start. The idea of the "still" rings is to do as much with as little ring movement as possible (forward and back). We used to do allot of isometrics to train too.
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Braindx...Bud....no offence but your talking in circles. If you don't see the connection between technique and strength training than it would be beyond me to try to explain it to you. The idea of overtraining never came up, which for that level of adaptability is a mute point. So I guess I'll just let you disagree with me. Good Luck.