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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on June 06, 2013, 06:19:09 AM
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http://news.yahoo.com/obama-administration-defends-phone-records-113329195.html
In its first semi-official comment from the White House about The Guardian's Verizon/NSA phone-snooping scoop, the administration didn't admit to collecting the telephone records of millions of Americans. But they didn't say they wouldn't do that either. An anonymous "senior administration official" would not confirm that the newspaper story was true or that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court order was legitimate but they did tell media outlets on Thursday that the requests are "a critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats."
RELATED: The NSA Is Collecting Phone Records in Bulk
The order in question, which was issued in April, compelled Verizon to give the National Secuirty Agency information on all phone calls that were routed through its network over a period of three months. The classified order was published in The Guardian on Wednesday, and though it doesn't mention any other telephone companies, it's possible that similar orders were issued to them as well.
RELATED: Raytheon's 'Google for Spies' Tracks You from Social-Media Sharing — and Fast
The same administration official also reiterated to the AP that while the information collected includes phone numbers, location data, and call times, it doesn't include the contents of any phone conversation.
After overnight silence, Obama admin finally responds to Guardian report. Won't confirm specifics but defends the practice.
— Chuck Todd (@chucktodd) June 6, 2013
NBC News's Chuck Todd also reported that administration official (presumably the same person) told him that "all branches of government are aware" when orders like this are issued, implying that members of Congress, as well as the President, were likely briefed on the matter when it happened. We'll have to see if President Obama comes forward to discuss this soon, but it looks the government's defense is going to take the usual path when it comes to Patriot Act-style suveillance: This is normal behavior, it's for our own safety, and there's nothing to see here.
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Obama administration defends Verizon phone record collection
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An employee holds out an iPhone for a customer at a Verizon store in Boston, Massachusetts February 10, 2011. REUTERS/Brian Snyder
By Mark Hosenball and Susan Heavey
WASHINGTON | Thu Jun 6, 2013 8:55am EDT
(Reuters) - The Obama administration on Thursday acknowledged that it is collecting a massive amount of telephone records from at least one carrier, reopening the debate over privacy even as it defended the practice as necessary to protect Americans against attack.
The admission comes after the Guardian newspaper published a secret court order related to the records of millions of Verizon Communications customers on its website on Wednesday.
A senior administration official said the court order pertains only to data such as a telephone number or the length of a call, and not the subscribers' identities or the content of the telephone calls.
Such information is "a critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats to the United States," the official said, speaking on the condition of not being named.
"It allows counter terrorism personnel to discover whether known or suspected terrorists have been in contact with other persons who may be engaged in terrorist activities, particularly people located inside the United States," the official added.
The revelation raises fresh concerns about President Barack Obama's handling of privacy and free speech issues. His administration is already under fire for searching Associated Press journalists' calling records and the emails of a Fox television reporter as part of its inquiries into leaked government information.
It was not immediately clear whether the practice extends to other carriers.
The order released on Wednesday is from the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and directs Verizon's Business Network Services Inc and Verizon Business Services units to hand over daily electronic data until July 19. The order can be seen at: r.reuters.com/kap68t
(This headline of this story has been corrected to say administration, not White House)
(Reporting by Mark Hosenball and Susan Heavey; Editing by Vicki Allen)
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Hugo was right again......... >:(
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Liberals will defend their master as usual.
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Hugo has been railing at the Patriot act for years...saying exactly what we're seeing out of Obama, would happen.
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People need to start waking up to the reality that big brother does not have their beat interests at heart, and that they could, and WOULD, turn on their citizens in a heartbeat if they thought tjeu could get away with it. (And by they, I mean most politicians and high ranking government officials, and by turn on, I mean turn this country into a totalitarian state because they believe they know whats best for us, and they have next to no respect for their citizens)
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/05/nsas-verizon-spying-order-specifically-targeted-americans-not-foreigners
sick!!!
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Liberals will defend their master as usual.
Really.....hate to tell you this but everyone already knew this...its been done for almost 15 years...increasingly more because of the Patriot Act gave broader access.
if you don't like it, then tie a string to two fucking tin cans
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Really.....hate to tell you this but everyone already knew this...its been done for almost 15 years...increasingly more because of the Patriot Act gave broader access.
if you don't like it, then tie a string to two fucking tin cans
Obama ran against this remember?
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;)
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
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Hugo has been railing at the Patriot act for years...saying exactly what we're seeing out of Obama, would happen.
Yeah, but lots of smart guys like Beach Bum say we didn't lose any freedom under the Patriot Act? ???
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Really.....hate to tell you this but everyone already knew this...its been done for almost 15 years...increasingly more because of the Patriot Act gave broader access.
if you don't like it, then tie a string to two fucking tin cans
You're privy to secret court orders now?
No one knew this, hence why it's news. ::)
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Yeah, but lots of smart guys like Beach Bum say we didn't lose any freedom under the Patriot Act? ???
My question is, how long did telephones exist before laws were enacted to retrieve telephone records?
Secondly, is the trade off worth it here? Does this help fight terrorism or does is it unneeded?
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My question is, how long did telephones exist before laws were enacted to retrieve telephone records?
Secondly, is the trade off worth it here? Does this help fight terrorism or does is it unneeded?
There's no trade off.
Give me Liberty or Give me Death
Osama Bin Laden accomplished his goal
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My question is, how long did telephones exist before laws were enacted to retrieve telephone records?
Secondly, is the trade off worth it here? Does this help fight terrorism or does is it unneeded?
I heard someone say a terrorist attack was prevented as a result of this, but I don't know any details. Still, there has to be a less intrusive way to do this.
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There's no trade off.
Give me Liberty or Give me Death
Osama Bin Laden accomplished his goal
When stuff like this comes to light and the police state and drive towards the police state becomes more overt....what exactly are we "fighting" for? If the govt. becomes a police state (which I already think it is or close to it) what's the point?
Burning the the founding ideals of this country in a giant bonfire so the govt. can "fight terrorism" seems a bit laughable now.
In the end, our freedoms, liberties and such come with a price tag.
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I would rather deal w terrorists than have this leviathan police state
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There's no trade off.
Give me Liberty or Give me Death
Osama Bin Laden accomplished his goal
Ok, that's ideologically fine, but are you ok with that when another 9/11 happens because we don't have the power with in our laws to protect ourselves?
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I heard someone say a terrorist attack was prevented as a result of this, but I don't know any details. Still, there has to be a less intrusive way to do this.
I assume there would be, but are they just looking at call records or recording calls?
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I assume there would be, but are they just looking at call records or recording calls?
We really thwarted the boston attack!
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We really thwarted the boston attack!
Poor argument in the context of the discussion.
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Poor argument in the context of the discussion.
No its not - we have all this police state crap in existence and it still does not work even when the terrorists are known to us.
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I assume there would be, but are they just looking at call records or recording calls?
Feinstein said it's just metadata, so they're not actually getting the text of conversations, just a record of calls being made. I still think that's too broad.
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No its not - we have all this police state crap in existence and it still does not work even when the terrorists are known to us.
Yes it is, because you are not applying any sound logic and or details to it.
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Feinstein said it's just metadata, so they're not actually getting the text of conversations, just a record of calls being made. I still think that's too broad.
So they are just seeing who texted and who call who? How is that broad? Just wondering why you think that.
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So they are just seeing who texted and who call who? How is that broad? Just wondering why you think that.
Because they're asking for that data on every Verizon customer, including American citizens, regardless of whether the customer is suspected of being involved in terrorism, a crime, etc.
If it was limited to non-citizens, I'd have no problem.
If it includes American citizens, I think there should be some kind of showing to a judge that the specific customers are suspected of some kind of criminal activity.
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Because they're asking for that data on every Verizon customer, including American citizens, regardless of whether the customer is suspected of being involved in terrorism, a crime, etc.
If it was limited to non-citizens, I'd have no problem.
If it includes American citizens, I think there should be some kind of showing to a judge that the specific customers are suspected of some kind of criminal activity.
I agree with this. I assume there is a judge involved when phone records are investigated, if so, why not here?
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I agree with this. I assume there is a judge involved when phone records are investigated, if so, why not here?
I'm not sure if a court was involved? Haven't read up on it. Just relying on headlines and some talk radio at this point. Will have to read substantive stuff about it later.
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Ok, that's ideologically fine, but are you ok with that when another 9/11 happens because we don't have the power with in our laws to protect ourselves?
Yes, I'd rather live with the less than 1% chance that I'll be a victim of terrorism.
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Yes, I'd rather live with the less than 1% chance that I'll be a victim of terrorism.
its not just your death. Its fear and the affect something like this has having to shut down air travel for a few days will have on the economy. So, dying, which i agree is slim for you, wouldn't be for peeps like me who travel quite a lot. However, hits on the economy will affect everyone. Not to mention more and more attacks happening.
This is ok with you?
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I agree with this. I assume there is a judge involved when phone records are investigated, if so, why not here?
Here is a good article (from The Salon.com, no less) that details the depth of this type of stuff and the complete lack of checks/balances on the very govt. that operates it.
It isn't specifically about this, but it encapsulates it, nonetheless.
Long story short, "We the People..." have no recourse and no protections against this and our judicial system that was set up to prevent such things from happening is aiding and abetting this.
http://www.salon.com/2011/09/22/jacobs_3/ (http://www.salon.com/2011/09/22/jacobs_3/)
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What the F are these 'Secret Courts" ? total bs imho
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Apparently a judge/court was involved, but I still don't agree with this. Neither does the guy who wrote the law.
Author of Patriot Act says NSA phone records collection 'never the intent' of law
Published June 06, 2013
FoxNews.com
The author of the Patriot Act said Thursday that a secret program under which the Obama administration was collecting phone records from millions of Americans is "excessive" and beyond the scope of the law.
Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., who wrote the 2001 law, was among a host of lawmakers on both sides of the aisle who raised alarm over the practice.
The Guardian newspaper first reported the National Security Agency had been collecting records under a court order from millions of Verizon customers in the U.S. Defenders of the program tried to ease the furor by assuring the public this is "nothing new" -- and in fact has been going on for seven years. But the acknowledgement that the program is long running only fueled the outrage from civil liberties groups and lawmakers who described it as a blatant overreach.
"This is a big deal, a really big deal," Sensenbrenner told Fox News, adding that such a broad seizure was "never the intent" of the law. He floated the possibility of amending the Patriot Act before its 2015 expiration to stop this.
In a separate statement, he called the program "excessive and un-American."
The Republican lawmaker also fired off a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder -- who would not comment on the program when asked about it Thursday -- explaining why he thinks the records collection goes astray of the law. He noted that the key section of the law that allows the government to obtain business records requires the information to be relevant to an authorized investigation.
"How could the phone records of so many innocent Americans be relevant to an authorized investigation?" he asked in the letter.
He said the order "could not have been drafted more broadly," and said he does not think it's "consistent" with the law's requirements.
A handful of in-the-know lawmakers lined up to defend the program, while acknowledging the need to protect privacy.
Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., chairman of the House intelligence committee, said the effort is not "data mining," and has helped quash a terrorist attack on U.S. soil in the past few years. He would not elaborate.
The leaders of the Senate intelligence committee also defended the program, saying it is "nothing new." Republican Georgia Sen. Saxby Chambliss said it's been going on for seven years.
Chairwoman Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., said these orders are actually renewed every three months through the court. She said the records are there for investigators to access if there is suspicion of terrorist activity.
"The threat from terrorism remains very real and these lawful intelligence activities must continue, with the careful oversight of the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government," Feinstein and Chambliss said in a joint statement.
Speaking later in the day, Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid said "everyone should just calm down."
Administration officials, while not directly acknowledging the order, defended their authority to collect records and stressed they're not listening in on conversations.
However, civil liberties groups and some lawmakers sounded the alarm over the collection effort.
"The National Security Agency's seizure and surveillance of virtually all of Verizon's phone customers is an astounding assault on the Constitution," Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., said.
One civil liberties group called this the "broadest surveillance order to ever have been issued."
"It requires no level of suspicion and applies to all Verizon subscribers anywhere in the U.S.," the Center for Constitutional Rights said in a statement.
Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., who has historically opposed the Patriot Act, said the effort "is not what democracy is about."
The report in the Guardian newspaper follows revelations that the Justice Department was seizing the phone records of journalists, including at Fox News, in the course of leak probes.
The order, a copy of which apparently was obtained by The Guardian, reportedly was granted by the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court on April 25 and is good until July 19.
It requires Verizon, one of the nation's largest telecommunications companies, on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the U.S. and between the U.S. and other countries.
The text of the order, as published by The Guardian, says that "the Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency (NSA) upon service of this Order, and continue production on an ongoing daily basis thereafter for the duration of this Order, unless otherwise ordered by the Court, an electronic copy of the" the records in question.
The newspaper claims the document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of U.S. citizens were being collected indiscriminately and in bulk, regardless of whether they were suspected of any wrongdoing.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/06/author-patriot-act-says-phone-records-collection-excessive/
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The NSA Is Funneling Your Internet Life from Silicon Valley to Obama's Desk
Pete Souza/White House/Flickr (Obama)
Rebecca Greenfield 6:36 PM ET
If you thought the National Security Agency's collection of Verizon phone-call data was bad, wait until you hear about the seven-year-old, previously undisclosed classified government program that works with nine very major U.S. Internet companies to secretly scrape your online life and has become "the most prolific contributor" to President Obama's daily intelligence report and is "increasingly" important to the NSA. PRISM, as the classified Silicon Valley collective is code-named, collects information such as emails, documents, audio, video, and photographs from Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube, and Apple, according to a shocking Washington Post scoop. "From inside a company's data stream the NSA is capable of pulling out anything it likes," write the Post's Barton Gellman and Laura Poitras. You can see a full list of everything that encompasses in slides provided to the Post by what appears to be a single leaker the day after the Guardian's Verizon scoop, but suffice it to say this is a much bigger buffet of privacy invasion than the meta-data of your cellphone calls, which at least doesn't include the content of an innocent American's conversation. But don't worry, the program — approved under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act but centering on American companies and their data — also includes a system, codenamed BLARNEY, that scrapes meta-data, too.
So much for Internet companies pushing back against unwarranted government surveillance. Just like the telecoms, in exchange for immunity from lawsuits, these nine Silicon Valley giants (perhaps with more on the way, though Twitter has held out and Apple waited for five years) have to accept a "directive" to open their servers to the FBI's Data Intercept Technology Unit. As this next enlightening slide from the Post shows, it hasn't taken too long for those companies to join the cause.
The revelation of the program does come with this important reminder from the Post team: "under current rules the agency does not try to collect it all." But that doesn't mean that innocent Americans aren't having their Internet lives — where most of us do a lot of our communicating — unwittingly scooped up by authorities. Gellman and Poitras explain:
Analysts who use the system from a Web portal at Fort Meade key in “selectors,” or search terms, that are designed to produce at least 51 percent confidence in a target’s “foreignness.” That is not a very stringent test. Training materials obtained by the Post instruct new analysts to submit accidentally collected U.S. content for a quarterly report, “but it’s nothing to worry about.”
Indeed, 51 percent confidence isn't very confident at all. Even when the system manages to work properly and find a person who reaches said "foreignness," because of the way the Internet works, that process still leaves a lot of people's innocent information collected by the NSA program run out of Fort Meade, as Gellman and Poitras explain: "To collect on a suspected spy or foreign terrorist means, at minimum, that everyone in the suspect’s inbox or outbox is swept in." In addition, analysts are taught to "chain through contact to 'hops' from their target," meaning that all the contacts — likely innocent Americans — are being spied on as well. If the program says it needs two hops, it's worth remembering that we're all 4.74 hops away. As the Post team adds, the whole PRISM process is literally as easy as "a few clicks":
There has been “continued exponential growth in tasking to Facebook and Skype,” according to the 41 PRISM slides. With a few clicks and an affirmation that the subject is believed to be engaged in terrorism, espionage or nuclear proliferation, an
analyst obtains full access to Facebook’s “extensive search and surveillance capabilities against the variety of online social networking services.”
This is all very shocking considering how much of our lives we spend online and how much of our personal data we entrust to these Internet companies. Though there were rumors that the search giant might have been up to something like this, Google is still alleging to the Post that it "cares deeply about the security of our users' data." But maybe it shouldn't be — we knew the scope of the NSA spying was bigger than the a few phone calls.
Stay tuned to The Atlantic Wire tonight for more details.
Want to add to this story? Let us know in comments or send an email to the author at rgreenfield@theatlantic.com. You can share ideas for stories on the Open Wire.
Topics: Internet, NSA, PRISM, wiretapping
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Author of Patriot Act says NSA phone records collection 'never the intent' of law
Well... Ignorant posters on getbig could see this kind of shit coming but the highly educated author of this bill couldn't? ::)