Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: _aj_ on August 29, 2013, 07:20:26 AM
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As I ruptured my achilles tendon 4 weeks ago, I have been working out 6x/week with a pure upper-body-only workout. Now, watching my shitty legs actually whither is a humbling experience, but I have learned something interesting about so-called "overtraining" in my upper body. I am working out each muscle group in my upper body 3x/week (I use a push/pull split) and I was worried about overtraining, so I was taking it easy every other workout. For the last few weeks though, I have been going to failure with increasing weights each and every day. My body, far from crying uncle, is actually responding and I am getting stronger/leaner and (hopefully) bigger. Now, I am (for now) a complete natty and have a fairly dialed in diet (175-250g protein/day, low carbs, etc -- not ready YET Gal/NoOne). And have been getting at least 8 hours of sleep a night (it's hard to do anything with a single leg and crutches).
I always believed in overtraining, but it was likely that I was just falling off somewhere else (sleep, nutrition).
Once i get my leg back, I am going to just go bonkers with a 3day push/pill/legs split. Fuck overtraining.
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There is no such thing as overtraining...
Avoid injury , and train everyday that you can.
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Absolutely overtraining exists...no matter what CT Fletcher says. lol
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there is such thing as overtraining, but no bodybuilder trains hard or long enough to enter that state
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First it would be useful to define overtraining.
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As I ruptured my achilles tendon 4 weeks ago, I have been working out 6x/week with a pure upper-body-only workout. Now, watching my shitty legs actually whither is a humbling experience, but I have learned something interesting about so-called "overtraining" in my upper body. I am working out each muscle group in my upper body 3x/week (I use a push/pull split) and I was worried about overtraining, so I was taking it easy every other workout. For the last few weeks though, I have been going to failure with increasing weights each and every day. My body, far from crying uncle, is actually responding and I am getting stronger/leaner and (hopefully) bigger. Now, I am (for now) a complete natty and have a fairly dialed in diet (175-250g protein/day, low carbs, etc -- not ready YET Gal/NoOne). And have been getting at least 8 hours of sleep a night (it's hard to do anything with a single leg and crutches).
I always believed in overtraining, but it was likely that I was just falling off somewhere else (sleep, nutrition).
Once i get my leg back, I am going to just go bonkers with a 3day push/pill/legs split. Fuck overtraining.
??? ::)
Let me guess... you're in between 18-28 years old.
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As I ruptured my achilles tendon 4 weeks ago, I have been working out 6x/week with a pure upper-body-only workout. Now, watching my shitty legs actually whither is a humbling experience, but I have learned something interesting about so-called "overtraining" in my upper body. I am working out each muscle group in my upper body 3x/week (I use a push/pull split) and I was worried about overtraining, so I was taking it easy every other workout. For the last few weeks though, I have been going to failure with increasing weights each and every day. My body, far from crying uncle, is actually responding and I am getting stronger/leaner and (hopefully) bigger. Now, I am (for now) a complete natty and have a fairly dialed in diet (175-250g protein/day, low carbs, etc -- not ready YET Gal/NoOne). And have been getting at least 8 hours of sleep a night (it's hard to do anything with a single leg and crutches).
I always believed in overtraining, but it was likely that I was just falling off somewhere else (sleep, nutrition).
Once i get my leg back, I am going to just go bonkers with a 3day push/pill/legs split. Fuck overtraining.
::)
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There is never any good reason to overtrain that I can think of.
Obviously, it's a lot easier to overtrain at 35, or at 45, than at 15.
However, the key is to get on a regular, continuous program that allows you to work as hard as possible, and eliminate the possibility of overtraining. That's the idea behind the limited HIT programs, and earlier programs from Bradley Steiner (in IM), the York and Rader barbell programs.
If you train on the edges of overtraining, you probably will at some point.
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??? ::)
Let me guess... you're in between 18-28 years old.
LOL, I wish. Quite a bit older than that.
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there is such thing as overtraining, but no getbigger trains hard or long enough to enter that state
Fixed..
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no such thing as overtraining?
try training your biceps relatively heavy for 5-6 to failure sets every day.
then come back. :D
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no such thing as overtraining?
try training your biceps relatively heavy for 5-6 to failure sets every day.
then come back. :D
You have to understand that most of guys here has brain capacity of a four years old, so there will be plenty of things they don't know. That's why they have lot of complete stupid statements and opinions. Most of those getbiggers who actually are training, are training not for muscle but for ego, so how they would know? There is lot of waving and jerking, lot of screaming and dropping weights, but not real training, and therefore no overtraining ;D
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Since i started training each bodypart twice a week ive grown and got stronger. David Tua said theres no such thing as over training and hes right.
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well, yeah then the biceps might get overtrained, but not the whole body.
overtraining can be avoided by adapting training, even though you go every day.
but yeah, consecutive, every day training for a month straight, thatll put some strain on the bodys nervous sytem.
you dont know what the op meant, and take most ridiculous example to make a point, please.
it depends on the goal, if one is of those fools who think if they not stronger each consecutive workout ,then,well, good luck for them,lol.
I guess my point was that I used to be very scrupulous about the number of sets per week and the amount of "recovery" that I used to do. Since my injury I have basically thrown all of the stuff that I used to "know" out the window and it seems to be working anyway. I suppose it didn't really warrant a post ("news flash: part time weight lifter didn't actually know his shit"). So I stand guilty of anabolichalo'ism. Rats.
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there is such thing as overtraining, but no bodybuilder trains hard or long enough to enter that state
This.
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no such thing as overtraining?
try training your biceps relatively heavy for 5-6 to failure sets every day.
then come back. :D
Let me be more specific...
One can't obviously train the same body part on consecutive days...
One does not need to schedule off days when you have a decent split routine.
You can train 8-10 days in a row and not overtrain...
Have common sense, and listen to your body. As one gets older, life happens and there will be plenty of unforeseen rest days. Train as heavy and as often as you can.
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Yes only CrossFitters can achieve this feat, they are the hardest working athletes.
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Yes only CrossFitters can achieve this feat, they are the hardest working athletes.
Yes they leave it all out on the field so to speak.
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cns
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I've found over many year of lifting that over-training is really just under-eating.
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You have to understand that most of guys here has brain capacity of a four years old, so there will be plenty of things they don't know. That's why they have lot of complete stupid statements and opinions. Most of those getbiggers who actually are training, are training not for muscle but for ego, so how they would know? There is lot of waving and jerking, lot of screaming and dropping weights, but not real training, and therefore no overtraining ;D
what is your definition of real training?
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I've found over many year of lifting that over-training is really just under-eating.
I've found over many years of lifting that sweat is really just condensation.
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There is no such thing as overtraining...
Avoid injury , and train everyday that you can.
Sounds like a crossfitter before overuse injuries, and rhabdo set in. No guts , no glory! Vamos!!!
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As I ruptured my achilles tendon 4 weeks ago, I have been working out 6x/week with a pure upper-body-only workout. Now, watching my shitty legs actually whither is a humbling experience, but I have learned something interesting about so-called "overtraining" in my upper body. I am working out each muscle group in my upper body 3x/week (I use a push/pull split) and I was worried about overtraining, so I was taking it easy every other workout. For the last few weeks though, I have been going to failure with increasing weights each and every day. My body, far from crying uncle, is actually responding and I am getting stronger/leaner and (hopefully) bigger. Now, I am (for now) a complete natty and have a fairly dialed in diet (175-250g protein/day, low carbs, etc -- not ready YET Gal/NoOne). And have been getting at least 8 hours of sleep a night (it's hard to do anything with a single leg and crutches).
I always believed in overtraining, but it was likely that I was just falling off somewhere else (sleep, nutrition).
Once i get my leg back, I am going to just go bonkers with a 3day push/pill/legs split. Fuck overtraining.
^^^^^^^Stupid American^^^^^^^^^
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what is your definition of real training?
Do you need example? Well, when I train my legs, I do 2 x 100 reps leg extensions and 2 x 50 reps of seated hamstring curls for warm up, then 3 sets of 15 reps of deep squat, two rounds of superset with extensions and leg press, then 3 sets of hack with very slow negatives, 25 reps per set . After those I do four 15 reps sets of stiff legged deadlifts, 3 sets seated hamstring curls, and finally 3 sets per leg for one leg curls. I do it once a week and yes, I call it real training, because my muscles grows by it. Of course it is all bullshit, because none of you guys are able to do same, so what is your point asking this kind of question? It is obious that you will not believe anything I say, if it is more than yourself can do, so what is the point? ;D
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^^^^^^^Stupid American^^^^^^^^^
Haha!
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Yes they leave it all out on the field so to speak.
Precisely, as a CrossFitter one always leaves the gym each day with "no regrets".
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^^^^^^^Stupid American^^^^^^^^^
As far as athletic strength goes, we have surpassed the euro's when it comes to research and training advancements. Euro athletes have a much higher rate of injury than american athletes. I say this because your post was such a blanket statement, it borderlines retardation.
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Over-training is very real.
Try to educate yourselves on the CNS (Central Nervous System)
If you are going to push yourself continuously without taking time to recover, you will, in fact be "over-training" ~ call it what you will, it all comes down to the same thing.
Vince Gironda was a true "Guru" ~ he also believed in the "theory" (which is actually 'logic') of overtraining.
Semantics I suppose. I could take someone and overtrain them in one day, the only problem is: I won't do it. You pull a muscle off the bone, I'm not taking the blame.
Get with it folks.
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"CNS" oh brother
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I train 6-7 days a week. Twice a day. Cardio early morning weights at night. I feel awesome. I do not subscribe to this
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I farted in the shower this morning.
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"overtraining" for normal bodybuilders is the biggest crock of shit that the magazine/supp industry has ever sold to the public.
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While I believe people get too obsessed with overtraining and undertrain, my comment to the OP is he wont have any grasp on his comment being true until he gets back to real and actual leg training
Most young guys train chest shoulders and arms several times a week yet are real pussies when it comes to leg work and yes back work.
I also think there are way too many trainees out there who brag about their 315-405 deadlifts yet cant squat anything over 135 in good form
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While I believe people get too obsessed with overtraining and undertrain, my comment to the OP is he wont have any grasp on his comment being true until he gets back to real and actual leg training
Most young guys train chest shoulders and arms several times a week yet are real pussies when it comes to leg work and yes back work.
I also think there are way too many trainees out there who brag about their 315-405 deadlifts yet cant squat anything over 135 in good form
This is a valid point.
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I train 6-7 days a week. Twice a day. Cardio early morning weights at night. I feel awesome. I do not subscribe to this
How often do you eat?
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I've found over many year of lifting that over-training is really just under-eating.
or under sleeping
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Do you need example? Well, when I train my legs, I do 2 x 100 reps leg extensions and 2 x 50 reps of seated hamstring curls for warm up, then 3 sets of 15 reps of deep squat, two rounds of superset with extensions and leg press, then 3 sets of hack with very slow negatives, 25 reps per set . After those I do four 15 reps sets of stiff legged deadlifts, 3 sets seated hamstring curls, and finally 3 sets per leg for one leg curls. I do it once a week and yes, I call it real training, because my muscles grows by it. Of course it is all bullshit, because none of you guys are able to do same, so what is your point asking this kind of question? It is obious that you will not believe anything I say, if it is more than yourself can do, so what is the point? ;D
I asked in order to find out what is your definition of real training, do not get upset. So it is a volume.
I do not need to do more than 20 sets for my legs to grow, so there is no need for me to pursue such a volume. Am I not training for real now if my legs grow on 12-15 sets?
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or under sleeping
no set schedule when I am hungary
eat pretty healthy and a lot though
about to go run 5 miles now
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I've found after many years of lifting that farts are a gasous form of shit
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"CNS" oh brother
You think the Central Nervous System is a joke, right?
Too bad, so sad.
I suppose Glucose is a joke too?
(Yeah, I know... "sarcasm and cynicism" ~ they shed the same kind of light)
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there is such thing as overtraining, but no bodybuilder trains hard or long enough to enter that state
Agreed.
In fact, I would go as far to say that you don't even need to take fast carbs with your protein immediately after training.
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i believe in your mom
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good post galeniko
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I've found that if I finish up a training session while wanting to do just a little more, it is inspiring. On the other hand, when I train to utter exhaustion, I never want to see the inside of the gym again. Being methodical, I keep detailed notes on what I do and how much weight I used. This helps me to avoid overtraining while encouraging progression.
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competitors often train twice a day plus cardio, they dont look overtrained to me ???
This is why I would never have been a good competitor. Life is too short to devote this much time to one endeavor that provides very limited rewards. What you describe as training seems more like an obsession to me.
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So how many sets is it 75-80 sets on barbell curls or what is the exact number before overtraining occurs?
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well, if you give it 4hrs time, wheres the problem.
but were talking somewhat sensible measures here lol.
primemuscle, comeon, 2 sessions each 30minutes is nothing, pl spend that on the couch watching ads and weather forecast infront of tv, not sure if that increases their life quality.
training is mentaly refreshing for those who like it.
a serious trainer doesnt look forward to extended rest periods,or the next cheat meal or glass of wine, thats not the right mindset,thats entry level first time 3 months trial mindset,the twinks you see 2 times in gym in january and then never be heard of or seen again.
it s ok those who think theres overtraining thats fine, they can spend their time "recovering and growing" haha.
one can train daily and be very active on top of that outside the gym, its no problem.
there is something like training more than necesary regarding return og "investment", but overtraining, not sure if serious.
You did't answer the question. Is it 75-80 sets or one to failure as Arthur Jones prescribed?
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i believe in your mom
;D
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pleeease, look at canoo athletes, do you have idea how much they train , how come they not overtrained, theres one hundreds of serbian canoo athlete, with better arms than me.
Fixed ;D
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well i think it boils down to injuries for me. Lets not Forget your tendons and soft structures in the Joints take a beating too. Muscles recover faster than tendons and ligaments. Bursitis,tendinitis,strains.sprains top the list. Some can Train very often and have a very robust structure. I find a 5 day split letting overlap do the trick best for me.
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Agreed.
In fact, I would go as far to say that you don't even need to take fast carbs with your protein immediately after training.
I think this is also an incredibly dumb move.
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well i think it boils down to injuries for me. Lets not Forget your tendons and soft structures in the Joints take a beating too. Muscles recover faster than tendons and ligaments. Bursitis,tendinitis,strains.sprains top the list. Some can Train very often and have a very robust structure. I find a 5 day split letting overlap do the trick best for me.
Agreed, can't go wrong with a 5 day split. Gear, natty, doesn't matter.
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Agreed, can't go wrong with a 5 day split. Gear, natty, doesn't matter.
yes :)
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i believe in your mom
I don't know why this made me laugh...
That's about how serious this thread is I suppose.
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primemuscle, comeon, 2 sessions each 30minutes is nothing, pl spend that on the couch watching ads and weather forecast infront of tv, not sure if that increases their life quality.
I hope you aren't quoting me here. I don't remember every suggesting that two 30 minute sessions was adequate training. Normally, I train for an hour (that is an hour lifting not to include changing clothes or gassing with friends at the gym) 6 days a week. Lately, I have been dealing with a lot of pain because of a bum leg, so my workouts have become rather inconsistent.
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As I ruptured my achilles tendon 4 weeks ago, I have been working out 6x/week with a pure upper-body-only workout. Now, watching my shitty legs actually whither is a humbling experience, but I have learned something interesting about so-called "overtraining" in my upper body. I am working out each muscle group in my upper body 3x/week (I use a push/pull split) and I was worried about overtraining, so I was taking it easy every other workout. For the last few weeks though, I have been going to failure with increasing weights each and every day. My body, far from crying uncle, is actually responding and I am getting stronger/leaner and (hopefully) bigger. Now, I am (for now) a complete natty and have a fairly dialed in diet (175-250g protein/day, low carbs, etc -- not ready YET Gal/NoOne). And have been getting at least 8 hours of sleep a night (it's hard to do anything with a single leg and crutches).
I always believed in overtraining, but it was likely that I was just falling off somewhere else (sleep, nutrition).
Once i get my leg back, I am going to just go bonkers with a 3day push/pill/legs split. Fuck overtraining.
do 20000 reps of bench press at 80% 1RM 7 days a week and get back to me on that "no overtraining" theory.
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do 20000 reps of bench press at 80% 1RM 7 days a week and get back to me on that "no overtraining" theory.
I sort of assumed we were applying common sense to this equation
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I sort of assumed we were applying common sense to this equation
Exactly
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I sort of assumed we were applying common sense to this equation
so, obviously you admit, then, that overtraining exists. the question now becomes "at what point"?
obviously no one is going to do 20000 reps daily, but "common sense" is perhaps not so common as you may think. i remember posting on t-nation back in the day, when a well-respected poster there named "professor x" was spouting off the whole "no overtraining" nonsense. so some guy comes up and says "i disagree, i was doing x workout". while i forget the exact numbers, "x workout" was something i considered fully reasonable, if high-volume. it was certainly within the realm of many workouts i'd done and seen other do. professor x comes back and says exactly what you just did: "obviously this is stupid and no one would do this workout and i was only talking about volume that sane people would attempt when i said there was no overtraining."
::)
I used to do 9 sets to failure of 15 reps squats twice a week... in addition to many other sets for legs all to failure, and running several miles every day at a high bodyweight. I couldn't handle this. I kept getting more and more fucked up, but I stuck with it because "there's no such thing as overtraining" and "stop being a pussy" constantly echoed through my head, thanks to wise bodybuilders and their wonderful advices. ::)
And this is all besides the point, anyway. The one thing that rarely gets brought up in these discussions is the most important of all... WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF "OVERTRAINING"? I remember reading some epic, ten+ page article on the subject by lyle mcdonald, and nearly all of it was dedicated simply to the definition of overtraining... and this was in a completely different context than weight training. In fact, the highly detailed definition he was working towards was constructed explicitly in terms of high-volume endurance work, and this is the only type of overtraining definition I've ever seen which has ever been rigorously expounded, hence it's the most commonly referenced... but once again, it has just about NOTHING to do with bodybuilding style exercise. It's laughable when people say "overtraining exists, but bodybuilders don't work hard enough to experience it"... talk about your apples and oranges! This statement is based on a definition of the word "overtraining" that was expressed purely in terms of endurance work... it's not applicable in the slightest!
I would say it's best to use a more general definition of the term when talking about overtraining in a bodybuilding context. The best definition I can think of is this: overtraining is too much training. When is training too much? When NOT doing it would have been more beneficial than doing it.
So, going by this definition, even one bad rep is "overtraining", because it would have been better not to do it. And what usually happens, when one complains of being "overtrained"? Well, at the risk of overreaching, I'd say this: they started off doing good reps, and then got tired, and pushed too far, and started doing reps that damaged their bodies (strained soft tissues, nervous system, whatever, i'm being vague for a reason) such that they could not recover in a reasonable amount of time. Perhaps the person repeats this workout the in the next couple days, or weeks, when, say, their muscles feel recovered (ignoring any nagging pains), and further damages their body, creating a deeper "recovery deficit". Rinse and repeat a few times, and suddenly they go on bodybuilding.com about being "overtrained".
In my opinion, this person has a very good reason for saying so. But some mindless asshole comes along and shouts "NO SUCH THING" because said mindless asshole has instinctively managed to avoid such pitfalls himself. Posting sets and reps is pointless; what matters is whether the damage has been done. There are so many factors affecting this beyond just sets, reps, frequency, that it's laughable to look no further when declaring someone should or should not be "overtrained".
btw, not calling aj a mindless asshole -- he's far from one. just naive, when it comes to this topic.
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When you break down a muscle (working out) it has to have time to rebuild/heal itself. The adaptation to the newfound stress is the unfluence for a muscle to grow. As long as there is stress to the body there must be a result, good or bad. A muscle will be fully healed or damaged as much as it was during the workout. There will be an amount of time where working out again will not be beneficial because the muscle is busy healing already. If you wait for the muscle to be fully healed you won't further damage it, and if you worked out efficiently enough it will be stronger than the last time it was used. Overtraining would be a case where you are damaging the muscle while it's already stressed from the previous workout. It's close to the same thing as a wound opening up. It must have time to heal.
It doesn't matter if you believe in it or not, it's as real as gravity. Cause and effect.
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When someone says you can't overtrain, I think back about 30 years when I felt the same way.
The problem is, we become "addicted" to training, and we adjust our thinking to allow us to go to the gym every day and get our training in. I trained 6 days a week for years, overtraining all the while, and told myself that I wasn't.
I just didn't want to miss going to the gym. I'd rather overtrain than rest.
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When someone says you can't overtrain, I think back about 30 years when I felt the same way.
The problem is, we become "addicted" to training, and we adjust our thinking to allow us to go to the gym every day and get our training in. I trained 6 days a week for years, overtraining all the while, and told myself that I wasn't.
I just didn't want to miss going to the gym. I'd rather overtrain than rest.
Yeah but that's where the real muscle building begins in the rest phase
I was like that when I first started to go to the gym , didn't want to stop. I didn't believe in over-training but I learned the hard way , I was always tired , couldn't sleep at night , muscles didn't feel sore after a work out , couldn't get a good pump but I had this laser like focus on not missing a work out and then you come to your senses and take a few days off and when you return you feel great.
Now I'm a lot older it's harder to get to the gym consistently nevermind over train, easy to do when you're young and had no kids and not many responsibilities
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If you fall over and injure your skin, your body will start healing the wound with a scab. If you keep picking at the scab the wound will take a lot longer to heal.
Training a body part too frequently is like picking at a scab, the body will be in a constant state of repair and will not adapt properly and there will be minimal gains.
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When you break down a muscle (working out) it has to have time to rebuild/heal itself. The adaptation to the newfound stress is the unfluence for a muscle to grow. As long as there is stress to the body there must be a result, good or bad. A muscle will be fully healed or damaged as much as it was during the workout. There will be an amount of time where working out again will not be beneficial because the muscle is busy healing already. If you wait for the muscle to be fully healed you won't further damage it, and if you worked out efficiently enough it will be stronger than the last time it was used. Overtraining would be a case where you are damaging the muscle while it's already stressed from the previous workout. It's close to the same thing as a wound opening up. It must have time to heal.
It doesn't matter if you believe in it or not, it's as real as gravity. Cause and effect.
this ... :)
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so, obviously you admit, then, that overtraining exists. the question now becomes "at what point"?
obviously no one is going to do 20000 reps daily, but "common sense" is perhaps not so common as you may think. i remember posting on t-nation back in the day, when a well-respected poster there named "professor x" was spouting off the whole "no overtraining" nonsense. so some guy comes up and says "i disagree, i was doing x workout". while i forget the exact numbers, "x workout" was something i considered fully reasonable, if high-volume. it was certainly within the realm of many workouts i'd done and seen other do. professor x comes back and says exactly what you just did: "obviously this is stupid and no one would do this workout and i was only talking about volume that sane people would attempt when i said there was no overtraining."
::)
I used to do 9 sets to failure of 15 reps squats twice a week... in addition to many other sets for legs all to failure, and running several miles every day at a high bodyweight. I couldn't handle this. I kept getting more and more fucked up, but I stuck with it because "there's no such thing as overtraining" and "stop being a pussy" constantly echoed through my head, thanks to wise bodybuilders and their wonderful advices. ::)
And this is all besides the point, anyway. The one thing that rarely gets brought up in these discussions is the most important of all... WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF "OVERTRAINING"? I remember reading some epic, ten+ page article on the subject by lyle mcdonald, and nearly all of it was dedicated simply to the definition of overtraining... and this was in a completely different context than weight training. In fact, the highly detailed definition he was working towards was constructed explicitly in terms of high-volume endurance work, and this is the only type of overtraining definition I've ever seen which has ever been rigorously expounded, hence it's the most commonly referenced... but once again, it has just about NOTHING to do with bodybuilding style exercise. It's laughable when people say "overtraining exists, but bodybuilders don't work hard enough to experience it"... talk about your apples and oranges! This statement is based on a definition of the word "overtraining" that was expressed purely in terms of endurance work... it's not applicable in the slightest!
I would say it's best to use a more general definition of the term when talking about overtraining in a bodybuilding context. The best definition I can think of is this: overtraining is too much training. When is training too much? When NOT doing it would have been more beneficial than doing it.
So, going by this definition, even one bad rep is "overtraining", because it would have been better not to do it. And what usually happens, when one complains of being "overtrained"? Well, at the risk of overreaching, I'd say this: they started off doing good reps, and then got tired, and pushed too far, and started doing reps that damaged their bodies (strained soft tissues, nervous system, whatever, i'm being vague for a reason) such that they could not recover in a reasonable amount of time. Perhaps the person repeats this workout the in the next couple days, or weeks, when, say, their muscles feel recovered (ignoring any nagging pains), and further damages their body, creating a deeper "recovery deficit". Rinse and repeat a few times, and suddenly they go on bodybuilding.com about being "overtrained".
In my opinion, this person has a very good reason for saying so. But some mindless asshole comes along and shouts "NO SUCH THING" because said mindless asshole has instinctively managed to avoid such pitfalls himself. Posting sets and reps is pointless; what matters is whether the damage has been done. There are so many factors affecting this beyond just sets, reps, frequency, that it's laughable to look no further when declaring someone should or should not be "overtrained".
btw, not calling aj a mindless asshole -- he's far from one. just naive, when it comes to this topic.
I almost never post anymore or even log in, only lurk from time to time, but I had to log in this time after reading this post here to say: Great Post.
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Too bad Arnold and Mike Mentzer couldn't have started this thread.
Can you imagine?
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according to Mike Mentzer overtraining means lack of progress
The Wisdom of Mike Mentzer (page 3)
“Overtraining is not just something ‘kinda’ negative; it’s the single worst training mistake you can make. The greater the overtraining, the more dire the consequences. It’s possible to drive yourself into an overtraining situation that takes months to overcome. If you were to get a sunburn, you wouldn’t keep going out into the sun, would you?"
(http://www.mikementzer.com/milpose.jpg)
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And didn't Dorian follow the same kind of analogy?
Something like: "Once you pound the nail into the wood, you don't just keep pounding do you?"
Or Ronnie: "Aint nuttin' but a peanut" ~ wait, that one doesn't work.... sorry
Oh, I know, he's pressing 200lb. dumbells sayin' "light weight, light weight" (That way he convinces himself he's not overtraining)
Funny thing though... now he say's if he had it to do all over again, he would'nt ~ but then Frank Zane say's the same thing.
Amazing the things aging bodybuilders come up with when they can no longer function normally... you know, like moving their arms and shit. But we don't call that "over-training" we just call it....an injury... due to....
Let me think about this a bit longer ~
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Haney said something like "stimulate but don't annihilate" and many peeps took that to mean a hit against HIT
but... it really wasn't
you see "stimulate" could mean to train til failure and "annihilate" could mean to train past failure ie. forced reps, breakdowns, negatives, etc
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I almost never post anymore or even log in, only lurk from time to time, but I had to log in this time after reading this post here to say: Great Post.
thanks man.
it's kind of jumbled, but i hope it still gets some points across, the main one being: these discussions are completely pointless if someone doesn't first take the time to define "overtraining".
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thanks man.
it's kind of jumbled, but i hope it still gets some points across, the main one being: these discussions are completely pointless if someone doesn't first take the time to define "overtraining".
For the most part this forum seems to be based on misunderstandings and lack of communication skills ~ other than that, I agree that your post had to have shed some light for at least a blessed few ~
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What's funniest (not ha-ha funny -- call it curious instead?) about all this is the way many people will stand by a given routine as if it was cast in stone, a divine edict; e.g., thou shalt do no less than 12 sets per bodypart no more frequently than twice weekly.
Look at nature. It's cyclical. Even something as basic as watching waves at the beach is worth considering insofar as it illustrates a living organism, like our planet, ebbs and flows. It's not always chaos, with earthquakes, tsunami, huge storms, freakishly high or low temperatures or the like; by the same token, it's not always, and actually rarely IS, completely "static" to our eyes.
The planet can tolerate a great deal of stress for short periods, after which it needs a respite of sorts (if only for the life it sustains, namely and primarily us). You can go nuts in the gym for brief periods and, especially if you're enhanced and eating a shitload of food, I bet you'll be shocked at how quickly you might progress. But eventually that wave will crash, and if you persist with the drop sets, negatives, extra sets and higher frequency, your strength will inevitably drop and you'll ache from stem to stern.
How long that takes is up to the individual, but I guaranfuckingtee you it'll happen. Anyone who suggests otherwise is simply ... hmm, how to be polite about this ... not quite thinking things through.
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And people think Kai is stupid... ::)
Listen to your bodies bitches! (Yeah, I know someone is gonna fart in the shower)
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well i think it boils down to injuries for me. Lets not Forget your tendons and soft structures in the Joints take a beating too. Muscles recover faster than tendons and ligaments. Bursitis,tendinitis,strains.sprains top the list. Some can Train very often and have a very robust structure. I find a 5 day split letting overlap do the trick best for me.
I was going to make this point, you beat me to it...I been training for 23 years and I can tell these guys who are young that if you do not give your joints plenty of rest, you will be paying for it by the time you reach my age...Shit even giving them plenty of rest each week still is not going to save from pain later on in age...Doing repetitive movements with moderate to heavy weight for years and years means pain later in life...