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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Big Chiro Flex on October 04, 2013, 11:29:14 PM
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I think between 8-10%.
1-You are more insulin sensitive at this leaner Bodyfat. Better fasting blood glucose levels here as well.
2-Nutrient partitioning is at its peak around this time.
3-Hormonally, this is the optimal environment for higher test levels and lower estrogen levels.
4-joints should feel decent here, as opposed to much leaner levels where you'll really be feeling the aches and pains. Not to mention saving your joints by carrying around less unnecessary fat weight.
5-Good everyday lean level of Bodyfat, yet you should never feel depleted from workouts around 8-10% on a normal training program. Recovery seems to be the best here.
Im just not convinced that you gain more muscle by being fatter. What does GetBig think?
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I think it depends on the person. Some peoples bodies like being at a higher bf level while others can be in high single digit.
But for a natty such as myself with the goal of looking good year around I think it's best to get lean and then stay lean. No higher than 13% on a bulk. Cutting as a natural is a bitch so it's best not to get overly fat.
Currently high teens :-\ but chipping away.
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Around 8 to 12.
Beyod the 12 to 15 range anabolic hormones go to shit.
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Around 8 to 12.
Beyod the 12 to 15 range anabolic hormones go to shit.
That's another great point bro. AAS sides can get brutal if you're permabulking.
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the leanest you can be
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I think it depends on the person. Some peoples bodies like being at a higher bf level while others can be in high single digit.
But for a natty such as myself with the goal of looking good year around I think it's best to get lean and then stay lean. No higher than 13% on a bulk. Cutting as a natural is a bitch so it's best not to get overly fat.
Currently high teens :-\ but chipping away.
I trained for years as a very disciplined natty. I think my above post is even more crucial to natty's. There's zero leeway with you poor bastards....ive been there man :)
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Def under 10%
I'd say 8-9% in my case.
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man is this ever an age old debate
i remember back when i used to visit t-nation
this guy over there, "professor x", some huge mothe fucker, made it his personal mission attack "8-10%" claim
guy was like 300 5'10" or sth, big as hell, and had basically convinced the rest of the board (a lot of huge bastards, included)
i always wondered what caused him to say that... of course he also only touched a (legal) prohormone here and there ::)
even though he was obviously full of shit, in general, i think he really DID believe in going up to like 20% or so
makes you wonder...
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Sub 10% anything more then you're delusional
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i think for your 1st few years, theres nothing wrong with overeating and making big jumps in bodyweight, especially if your in your late teens... make a huge leap, diet down, do a show, then never let your self go over 12 at the least, under 10 is optimum tho
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I predict between 3 to 4
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9.874368959% is the correct answer
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Hmm, interesting posts - I don't think I've been under 12% for a VERY long time, although personally I think I'm in fairly good shape at the moment.
Guess I'd better up the cardio and clean my diet up a bit because I've been gaining muscle just fine on what I estimate is around 12-15%, although probably nearer 15%.
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i think for your 1st few years, theres nothing wrong with overeating and making big jumps in bodyweight, especially if your in your late teens... make a huge leap, diet down, do a show, then never let your self go over 12 at the least, under 10 is optimum tho
this is what i did
i think this is what a lot of people do
and then usually go on to tell people "never go above 10%... EVER!"
lol
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6% on hormones
12% without hormones
For men atleast
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Below 10% i have the strength of a thirtheen year old girl. That can't be good?
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8-10 % is about right i guess... the lower the better until you start feeling uncomfortable because of low bf levels (but that's not gonna be applicable to the vast majority of people anyway because it's simply too hard for them to go down on bf% so much without putting a shitton of effort into it)
so yeah, definitely easier to gain lean mass if you're lean and fat if you're fat
i'd say you have to put your own genetics into consideration as well, some (most) people, myself included, just have a hard time staying lean, regardless of the 'hormonas'
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Below 10% i have the strength of a thirtheen year old girl. That can't be good?
Maybe you're a perfect candidate for a sex change, mrsdibbs
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Hmm, interesting posts - I don't think I've been under 12% for a VERY long time, although personally I think I'm in fairly good shape at the moment.
Guess I'd better up the cardio and clean my diet up a bit because I've been gaining muscle just fine on what I estimate is around 12-15%, although probably nearer 15%.
i think you have a similar kind of frame to me, i used to carry my fat n water quite well without looking like a bloated pig
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It depends on SO MANY variables.
If you are in the single digits, chances are, you are in a caloric deficit.
If you are running shit, well, that's another story. A "variable" so to speak (that which you did not clarify)
Some people do much better with a surplus of calories. Look at what Lee Priest "used to" do. Please don't look at him today.. .it's traumatic and terrifying.
If you are in a caloric deficit and you happen to be one of the lucky few who is below 10% BF, your chances of making any real noticeable gains are going to be slim. Does that make sense?
What do bodybuilders do before a contest? It's all about the nutrition (drugs) and nutrition, right? They cut calories, water, etc. They don't expect to grow into the show. They say they do, but it's a lie and a denial in regards to their drug usage.
If you've been in a caloric deficit for quite some time, have a fair amount of LBM, and are in the single digits, you can indeed make yourself extremely anabolic, but it would only be by increasing your calories and bringing your overall composition UP ~ more calories, more bodyfat, more muscle.
The dieting phase is a constant struggle to try and maintain your muscle while losing fat. Hopefully the fat you need to lose is minimal.
I would say the 10 -14% range for starters.
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Below 10% i have the strength of a thirtheen year old girl. That can't be good?
I only feel this when I'm sub 6% (only pre contest). 8% I'm strong as ever.
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The optimal level for gains is precisely 3.1415926535.
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The optimal level for gains is precisely 3.1415926535.
Ive had enough of your lip Stinkypus. Give me a serious answer. My muscle gains are not a joking matter. >:(
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Ive had enough of your lip Stinkypus. Give me a serious answer. My muscle gains are not a joking matter. >:(
are you maximising your anabloic wondows, serios question?
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20%+ 8)
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maximising your anabloic wondows
What exactly does that mean to you?
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I only feel this when I'm sub 6% (only pre contest). 8% I'm strong as ever.
what do you arms measure at that point in time, when you're sub-6?
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what do you arms measure at that point in time, when you're sub-6?
Before or after synthol?
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what do you arms measure at that point in time, when you're sub-6?
Probably 22" shredded. You mad ???
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Probably 22" shredded. You mad ???
impressive
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impressive
:D
I dunno dude. I'm all for the whole shaving your body, putting on a nice glittery thong and going out and making muscles onstage. But I've never been into the whole neurotic measuring muscles thing. My guns could be 14" on stage for all I care, so long as they look like they're 20". I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've measured my bodyparts, and most of those times was in reference to my penis ;D
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but as far as your question about optimum bodyfat for gaining muscle i've just gained almost 5 kg (about 10 pounds) over the past 5 weeks and i started @ 6-7% and now i'm only up slightly, as i'm sitting @ 7-8%
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but as far as your question about optimum bodyfat for gaining muscle i've just gained almost 5 kg (about 10 pounds) over the past 5 weeks and i started @ 6-7% and now i'm only up slightly, as i'm sitting @ 7-8%
Impressive.
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i have no earthly idea
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Impressive.
not bad i guess, but i still got a ways to go
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I think between 8-10%.
1-You are more insulin sensitive at this leaner Bodyfat. Better fasting blood glucose levels here as well.
2-Nutrient partitioning is at its peak around this time.
3-Hormonally, this is the optimal environment for higher test levels and lower estrogen levels.
4-joints should feel decent here, as opposed to much leaner levels where you'll really be feeling the aches and pains. Not to mention saving your joints by carrying around less unnecessary fat weight.
5-Good everyday lean level of Bodyfat, yet you should never feel depleted from workouts around 8-10% on a normal training program. Recovery seems to be the best here.
Im just not convinced that you gain more muscle by being fatter. What does GetBig think?
8/10% and i feel like shit, weak, easily injuried. I the kind of guy that feel better with 20%. More strenght, agressivity and recovery.
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8/10% and i feel like shit, weak, easily injuried. I the kind of guy that feel better with 20%. More strenght, agressivity and recovery.
20% is FAT bro. You a power lifter?
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Ive had enough of your lip Stinkypus. Give me a serious answer. My muscle gains are not a joking matter. >:(
Lol ~
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8/10% and i feel like shit, weak, easily injuried. I the kind of guy that feel better with 20%. More strenght, agressivity and recovery.
The cswol method I see
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:D
I dunno dude. I'm all for the whole shaving your body, putting on a nice glittery thong and going out and making muscles onstage. But I've never been into the whole neurotic measuring muscles thing. My guns could be 14" on stage for all I care, so long as they look like they're 20". I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've measured my bodyparts, and most of those times was in reference to my penis ;D
Very impressive natural physique u have! Much props!
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Ive had enough of your lip Stinkypus. Give me a serious answer. My muscle gains are not a joking matter. >:(
i also dont take any chances on my muscular development
you gotta tirelessly question everything
good luck in your fact finding mission
i've been doing a lot of research myself
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At bodyfat levels above 10%, the measurements increase, especially your waist, but it's not muscle, just more fat in the fat cells.
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Very impressive natural physique u have! Much props!
Formerly natural physique :D thanks though bro
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At bodyfat levels above 10%, the measurements increase, especially your waist, but it's not muscle, just more fat in the fat cells.
Yeah just seems foolish to me to let yourself go like that
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i also dont take any chances on my muscular development
you gotta tirelessly question everything
good luck in your fact finding mission
i've been doing a lot of research myself
Yes brother.
Sometimes I reflect on this quote by the great Lay Nortom and ponder...
"Are you willing to sacrifice to win?"
- Lay Nortom
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man is this ever an age old debate
i remember back when i used to visit t-nation
this guy over there, "professor x", some huge mothe fucker, made it his personal mission attack "8-10%" claim
guy was like 300 5'10" or sth, big as hell, and had basically convinced the rest of the board (a lot of huge bastards, included)
i always wondered what caused him to say that... of course he also only touched a (legal) prohormone here and there ::)
even though he was obviously full of shit, in general, i think he really DID believe in going up to like 20% or so
makes you wonder...
Lol really? Professor x is the epitome of permabulker.....fuck him and his "advice". He would always proudly post pictures of a shapeless biceps or the faintest hint of abs.
The illusion was maintained until they flew him to Colorado and videotaped him, and we saw that he looked like a shapeless blob. He got winded after doing a set of lunges and couldn't press 135 overhead. What a fat fucking mess.
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STFU , stop overthinking/eating so much, lift the fucking weights daily. Get lean and muscular. Wow. How hard is that to understand.
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STFU , stop overthinking/eating so much, lift the fucking weights daily. Get lean and muscular. Wow. How hard is that to understand.
You look like dogshit. Who wants to listen to your advice? So we can all look as frail and diminutive as you? LOL! Bye :)
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Anyways, on topic.....I don't think there's anything to be gained from going over 10-12%. Strength wise maybe, but not for muscle gain.
Lean muscle takes a LOOONG time to put on. When you don't see the scale move like you want, the natural thought is to eat more. I think time/consistency is the most important thing. Train hard, eat 200-300g protein/day, juice, and stay as lean as you can without killing yourself.... the muscle will come with time
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It depends on the individual. Genetics, work ethic, and dosages play the biggest part.
You can put muscle on as a 30% fatass, you just wont see it.
Bodybuilding 101: muscle is not fat. Bodyfat composition doesnt matter much, at 10% and over.
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Let's have a long 100 page drawn out discussion about H.I.T vs. Volume Training...
Naaaaah, can that.
Let's just talk about Crossfit and suspension training. Yeah... can't wait. Hold me back.
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I think between 8-10%.
1-You are more insulin sensitive at this leaner Bodyfat. Better fasting blood glucose levels here as well.
2-Nutrient partitioning is at its peak around this time.
3-Hormonally, this is the optimal environment for higher test levels and lower estrogen levels.
4-joints should feel decent here, as opposed to much leaner levels where you'll really be feeling the aches and pains. Not to mention saving your joints by carrying around less unnecessary fat weight.
5-Good everyday lean level of Bodyfat, yet you should never feel depleted from workouts around 8-10% on a normal training program. Recovery seems to be the best here.
Im just not convinced that you gain more muscle by being fatter. What does GetBig think?
Sounds like you enjoy a good prostate massage every now and then.
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Sounds like you enjoy a good prostate massage every now and then.
Ive never received the internal coccyx adjustment before but I hear that you specialize in this non-palmer-package technique ;)
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I make the best muscle gains just after finishing a cut, and then suddenly increasing calories and workout intensity.
It like the body gets really good at utilizing food during a cut, as there are not many calories coming in and the body must adapt. You have to train hard during the cut and try and maintain as much strength as you had during the bulk. The body will be trying its best to maintain muscle as it thinks you really need the muscle to survive.
Then when you increase the calories, the body overcompensates and builds muscle much more efficiently than normal.
This anabolic window lasts for about a month before I start noticing a little fat gain starting.
Post contest anabolic rebound, best 4 weeks of gains you'll ever experience 8)
That's when my avatar pic was taken. Steady diet of pizza and ice cream for a week straight. You're spot on though, after week 4 I had to clean up the diet.
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Counting cals and such to stay at x % bf is too time consuming. Plus on any given day ur activity varies greatly (gym followed by working on ur house in 100deg weather for ex). Just eat lift and diet when needed. Keeping the eating reasonable
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Post contest anabolic rebound, best 4 weeks of gains you'll ever experience 8)
That's when my avatar pic was taken. Steady diet of pizza and ice cream for a week straight. You're spot on though, after week 4 I had to clean up the diet.
Has anyone truly ever examined that there is this anabolic rebound? Or is just a matter of going from one extreme of caloric intake to another and the body is super compensating? Most contest preps will have you drop carbs and thus probably re-sensitizing receptors to insulin. The drop in carbs probably causes the reduction in insulin production as well.
As far as staying at a certain bodyfat percentage being too time consuming...I beg to differ. Once you know where you want to be you simply just eat that amount. Nothing too hard about that. Its keeping yourself in check
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Has anyone truly ever examined that there is this anabolic rebound? Or is just a matter of going from one extreme of caloric intake to another and the body is super compensating? Most contest preps will have you drop carbs and thus probably re-sensitizing receptors to insulin. The drop in carbs probably causes the reduction in insulin production as well.
As far as staying at a certain bodyfat percentage being too time consuming...I beg to differ. Once you know where you want to be you simply just eat that amount. Nothing too hard about that. Its keeping yourself in check
I think you're right about insulin resensitization. I think it's just a super junk food induced uptake of glycogen, water, and sodium. Not sure how much PURE muscle is being added. But the effect is still AWESOME no matter what it is.
Agreed on point 2. Maintaining 8-10% is NOT hard.
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with all the shit i'm on, it's hard to get over 10% now.... when I was using bbbbbbbbad dosed thyroid, I shrank wayyyyy down and stayed at sub 6% for MONTHS. Dropped the thyroid and put on 60lbs. lol... and about 4% bf.
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Post contest anabolic rebound, best 4 weeks of gains you'll ever experience 8)
That's when my avatar pic was taken. Steady diet of pizza and ice cream for a week straight. You're spot on though, after week 4 I had to clean up the diet.
how much weight did you gain at the end of those 4 weeks chief?
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with all the shit i'm on, it's hard to get over 10% now.... when I was using bbbbbbbbad dosed thyroid, I shrank wayyyyy down and stayed at sub 6% for MONTHS. Dropped the thyroid and put on 60lbs. lol... and about 4% bf.
T-3 can work if you force yourself to eat dirty. You can't get enuff calories with clean food to save muscle tissue when you're on Cytomel even if you are cycling pretty hard.
T-3 will get rid of that stubborn low back and lower ab fat, that's for sure. Much better than Clen or GH. I like T-3 in small doses. I don't have to get up anywhere near the 100 mcg dosage. Gotta eat.. JUNK! Or you will shrink and look like you should be modeling for Abercrombie or something.
You will stay at low levels of bodyfat, that's for sure.
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how much weight did you gain at the end of those 4 weeks chief?
For my avatar pic... Stage weight was 180. Back to 205 or so after 4 weeks.
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How tall are you?
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How tall are you?
5'10
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T-3 can work if you force yourself to eat dirty. You can't get enuff calories with clean food to save muscle tissue when you're on Cytomel even if you are cycling pretty hard.
T-3 will get rid of that stubborn low back and lower ab fat, that's for sure. Much better than Clen or GH. I like T-3 in small doses. I don't have to get up anywhere near the 100 mcg dosage. Gotta eat.. JUNK! Or you will shrink and look like you should be modeling for Abercrombie or something.
You will stay at low levels of bodyfat, that's for sure.
shit dude.. believe me, I was eating absolute junk... 470 kcal cream pies with 65g fat and something like 22g fat all day... boxes of hamburger helper everyday.. ice cream... peanut butter... was absolutely shredded... but my shirts started to hang off me and people were asking if I was sick. lol... hardcore lean-face for months. wasn't till I ended up in the ER that I realized my thyroid doses were wayyyyyy off.
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Damn, I didn't know T3 was this potent.
Thought of pissing muscle away scares me though.
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Damn, I didn't know T3 was this potent.
Thought of pissing muscle away scares me though.
I thought it was T4... no way of knowing how "off" the doses were. was strong enough to leach all the potassium from my cells and leave me unable to move my legs. went off and on for a week. until I couldn't move hardly at all at 1am.. called an ex gf in Mass who's a nurse and explained what was going on, she said i was probably low in Ka, and i better get to the ER or call an ambulance because it could move to my diaphragm and i could stop breathing.. and my breathing was labored already. lol.. but i still waited till 7am, since i didn't want to wake anybody up. i couldn't even put on my own clothes. lol
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I make the best muscle gains just after finishing a cut, and then suddenly increasing calories and workout intensity.
It like the body gets really good at utilizing food during a cut, as there are not many calories coming in and the body must adapt. You have to train hard during the cut and try and maintain as much strength as you had during the bulk. The body will be trying its best to maintain muscle as it thinks you really need the muscle to survive.
Then when you increase the calories, the body overcompensates and builds muscle much more efficiently than normal.
This anabolic window lasts for about a month before I start noticing a little fat gain starting.
remember the Anabolic Burst Cycling program from the 90s?
Where you dieted really strict for 2 weeks and ate very heavy for another 2 andrepeat.
Worked along the same lines as you mentioned.
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Ive had enough of your lip Stinkypus. Give me a serious answer. My muscle gains are not a joking matter. >:(
I like to gain from a lean startpoint. So it's around 8 for me.
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Maybe you're a perfect candidate for a sex change, mrsdibbs
Perhaps the change will happen by itself, stick to long at 9% and turn into a woman with a penoris :-X :-X
Could compete in womens volleyball with those test value's. Huge forehead is the giveaway though.
Gear must be the only way to get lean and stay huge/semi huge
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How does body fat level effect slinging dick in both raw no condom and condom used varieties of dick slinging?
Spot on BDB.
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Yes brother.
Sometimes I reflect on this quote by the great Lay Nortom and ponder...
"Are you willing to sacrifice to win?"
- Lay Nortom
THEY said you had NO CHANCE
THEY said DO OR DIE
I GOT THIS SHIT
ITS A JOKE!!!
*dominate!* (fat guy in the background)
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Gear is optimal for gaining muscle.
If you're maxed out naturally or on certain doses, better to be happy with what you got and stay lean and look good or take more muscle building asteroids.
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Perhaps the change will happen by itself, stick to long at 9% and turn into a woman with a penoris :-X :-X
Could compete in womens volleyball with those test value's. Huge forehead is the giveaway though.
Gear must be the only way to get lean and stay huge/semi huge
That's very true, esp when you're 5'7 or taller.
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shit dude.. believe me, I was eating absolute junk... 470 kcal cream pies with 65g fat and something like 22g fat all day... boxes of hamburger helper everyday.. ice cream... peanut butter... was absolutely shredded... but my shirts started to hang off me and people were asking if I was sick. lol... hardcore lean-face for months. wasn't till I ended up in the ER that I realized my thyroid doses were wayyyyyy off.
Were you using over 100 micro's?
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Sorry, just read your post. Yeah, BIG difference BTW T-3 and T-4.
You gotta go real easy on T-3 and you HAVE TO KNOW how much you are taking. You pyramid and drop. If it's T-4, that is much less potent. Mixing the two is serious.
T-3 by itself works fantastic at very small doses unless you are thyroid deficient.
Another problem is that you may have had a hyper thyroid and a fast metabolism prior to taking the stuff. These things have to be investigated prior, otherwise... well, you could wind up in an ER.
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Sorry, just read your post. Yeah, BIG difference BTW T-3 and T-4.
You gotta go real easy on T-3 and you HAVE TO KNOW how much you are taking. You pyramid and drop. If it's T-4, that is much less potent. Mixing the two is serious.
T-3 by itself works fantastic at very small doses unless you are thyroid deficient.
Another problem is that you may have had a hyper thyroid and a fast metabolism prior to taking the stuff. These things have to be investigated prior, otherwise... well, you could wind up in an ER.
Don't most guys nowadays try to mimick a physiological ratio of 4:1?
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Sorry, just read your post. Yeah, BIG difference BTW T-3 and T-4.
You gotta go real easy on T-3 and you HAVE TO KNOW how much you are taking. You pyramid and drop. If it's T-4, that is much less potent. Mixing the two is serious.
T-3 by itself works fantastic at very small doses unless you are thyroid deficient.
Another problem is that you may have had a hyper thyroid and a fast metabolism prior to taking the stuff. These things have to be investigated prior, otherwise... well, you could wind up in an ER.
actually, i'm hypo-thyroid... or "was" hypo-thyroid since '03, which is odd, since now my t4/tsh is in the low-end of 'normal' (those things usually don't correct themselves), and even before that I've always had a fast metabolism. was prescribed t4, but got sick of doing the bloodwork every 4-6 months and having the dr play with the dosage.. so I just 'self-medicated' with research-grade t4, which turned out to be high dose t3. should've known better, since the same guy was well-known for overdosing his stuff (40mcg clen of his felt like 200mcg). i'd used 100mcg pharma t3 in the past when getting ready for shows or when working an Expo (01-03), but this stuff's effects were wayyyyy more profound than the 100mcg I used back then. i'd estimate 150-200mcg/day +
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Gear is optimal for gaining muscle.
If you're maxed out naturally or on certain doses, better to be happy with what you got and stay lean and look good or take more muscle building asteroids.
totaly agree...
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actually, i'm hypo-thyroid... or "was" hypo-thyroid since '03, which is odd, since now my t4/tsh is in the low-end of 'normal' (those things usually don't correct themselves), and even before that I've always had a fast metabolism. was prescribed t4, but got sick of doing the bloodwork every 4-6 months and having the dr play with the dosage.. so I just 'self-medicated' with research-grade t4, which turned out to be high dose t3. should've known better, since the same guy was well-known for overdosing his stuff (40mcg clen of his felt like 200mcg). i'd used 100mcg pharma t3 in the past when getting ready for shows or when working an Expo (01-03), but this stuff's effects were wayyyyy more profound than the 100mcg I used back then. i'd estimate 150-200mcg/day +
Kinda scary dude. Glad U R still around to talk about it. :P
I don't usually talk to anyone about T-3 ~ excluding the forum of course. Drug is potent. In a way it carries a big risk just like our friend, Rat Poison (DNP) ~ people always have this mentality in the gym "if a little is good, more is better" ~ My philosophy is exactly the opposite.
http://health.dir.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hypothyroid/conversations/topics/7985
The 1 to 4 Ratio is correct ~