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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: tonymctones on October 26, 2013, 10:28:03 AM
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Since apparently this important topic isnt being addressed in another thread I figured Id start this one.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57609224/arrival-of-obamacare-forcing-insurers-to-drop-customers-with-low-coverage/
Natalie Willes is a sleep consultant who helps parents in Los Angeles train their newborns to sleep. She buys her own health insurance.
"I was completely happy with the insurance I had before," Willes said.
So she was surprised when she tried to renew her policy. What did she find out?
"That my insurance was going to be completely different, and they were going to be replaced with 10 new plans that were going to fall under the regulations of the Affordable Care Act," she said.
Her insurer, Kaiser Permanente, is terminating policies for 160,000 people in California and presenting them with new plans that comply with the healthcare law.
"Before I had a plan that I had a $1,500 deductible," she said. "I paid $199 dollars a month. The most similar plan that I would have available to me would be $278 a month. My deductible would be $6,500 dollars, and all of my care after that point would only be covered 70 percent."
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More americans have lost their plans due to obamacare than have created accounts to even see the prices at healthcare.gov
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/10/24/more-americans-have-had-their-insurance-canceled-under-obamacare-than-have-filed-an-exchange-account/
This week the reality of the ObamaCare roll-out appeared in a set of news stories that serve as an ironic juxtaposition. Over 500,000 individuals have seen their insurance policies cancelled in just 3 states. In all 50 states, only 476,000 applications have been “filed” in an exchange. (Even though we are still learning the true definition of “filed.”)
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http://www.nbcnews.com/health/thousands-get-health-insurance-cancellation-notices-8C11417913
Florida Blue, for example, is terminating about 300,000 policies, about 80 percent of its individual policies in the state. Kaiser Permanente in California has sent notices to 160,000 people – about half of its individual business in the state. Insurer Highmark in Pittsburgh is dropping about 20 percent of its individual market customers, while Independence Blue Cross, the major insurer in Philadelphia, is dropping about 45 percent.
Health plans are sending hundreds of thousands of cancellation letters to people who buy their own coverage, frustrating some consumers who want to keep what they have and forcing others to buy more costly policies.
The main reason insurers offer is that the policies fall short of what the Affordable Care Act requires starting Jan. 1. Most are ending policies sold after the law passed in March 2010. At least a few are canceling plans sold to people with pre-existing medical conditions.
By all accounts, the new policies will offer consumers better coverage, in some cases, for comparable cost -- especially after the inclusion of federal subsidies for those who qualify. The law requires policies sold in the individual market to cover 10 “essential” benefits, such as prescription drugs, mental health treatment and maternity care. In addition, insurers cannot reject people with medical problems or charge them higher prices. The policies must also cap consumers’ annual expenses at levels lower than many plans sold before the new rules.
But the cancellation notices, which began arriving in August, have shocked many consumers in light of President Barack Obama’s promise that people could keep their plans if they liked them.
“I don’t feel like I need to change, but I have to,” said Jeff Learned, a television editor in Los Angeles, who must find a new plan for his teenage daughter, who has a health condition that has required multiple surgeries.
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No, nothing????
so was obama lying when he said "if you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it"? of just horribly ignorant?
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No, nothing????
so was obama lying when he said "if you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it"? of just horribly ignorant?
Not sure which is worse, lying or being a moron ???
Either way I am saddened by the fact that American's are willfully inviting the government to take their freedoms away.
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Not sure which is worse, lying or being a moron ???
Either way I am saddened by the fact that American's are willfully inviting the government to take their freedoms away.
how about a lying moron?
come on...Mal, lurker, necrosis all of you wanted to post in the other thread about this...why not post in this one in which you actually have to address the issue?
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I still have no idea how anyone thinks the entity that has put the country 17 trillion in debt has somehow figured out how to lower the cost of anything
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I still have no idea how anyone thinks the entity that has put the country 17 trillion in debt has somehow figured out how to lower the cost of anything
by supplying subsidies that put the country even further in debt!!!!
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Sickens me how the natl media is completely ignoring this. Too busy painting Ted Cruz as crazy. ::)
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Im guessing that none of the usual supporters of this bill will touch this until next week when the lib media comes out with talking points to excuse, deflect and point fingers at others for this.
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I'm no authority but I've read that:
1. The plans that need to be replaced are so-called "junk" plans that don't conform to the new minimum requirements (related to services offered, deductible maxes, overall caps, etc) for all insurance plans.
2. Many of the people that will need to change plans will be able to get better plans for less money than before.
So, yes, when Obama said, "If you like your plan, you'll be able to keep it" that is not true in some cases. If the new plans are better and cheaper, though, I can't imagine that most people are going to object.
Here's a Hannity vid where he talks about the issue with Austan Goolsbee:
(Funny how at the end of the vid when Austan begins to talk about fact-checking the ACA claims of some earlier Hannity guests, Hannity hurriedly begins talking over him.)
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/austan-goolsbee-calls-out-sean-hannity-his (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/austan-goolsbee-calls-out-sean-hannity-his)
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How are they cheaper? The amount you pay monthly is less but then you get a 5K, 10K deductible? What's the point of paying the premium? And before this goes any further, this has absolutely nothing to do with health care, this is all about health insurance. So you believe the precedent set here is acceptable, the government can "tax" you for inactivity?
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I'm no authority but I've read that:
1. The plans that need to be replaced are so-called "junk" plans that don't conform to the new minimum requirements (related to services offered, deductible maxes, overall caps, etc) for all insurance plans.
2. Many of the people that will need to change plans will be able to get better plans for less money than before.
So, yes, when Obama said, "If you like your plan, you'll be able to keep it" that is not true in some cases. If the new plans are better and cheaper, though, I can't imagine that most people are going to object.
Here's a Hannity vid where he talks about the issue with Austan Goolsbee:
(Funny how at the end of the vid when Austan begins to talk about fact-checking the ACA claims of some earlier Hannity guests, Hannity hurriedly begins talking over him.)
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/austan-goolsbee-calls-out-sean-hannity-his (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/austan-goolsbee-calls-out-sean-hannity-his)
I appreciate the response at the very least, at least youre trying.
Its apparent though that youre not even an authority on this thread as those points have been addressed in the posts above. Many people will get better coverage with lower costs WHEN YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES!!!
MANY OTHERS will have much higher premiums and deductibles replacing plans they WERE COMPLETELY HAPPY WITH.
In your opinion was obama lying or just plain ignorant?
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Natalie Willes is a sleep consultant who helps parents in Los Angeles train their newborns to sleep. She buys her own health insurance.
"I was completely happy with the insurance I had before," Willes said.
So she was surprised when she tried to renew her policy. What did she find out?
"That my insurance was going to be completely different, and they were going to be replaced with 10 new plans that were going to fall under the regulations of the Affordable Care Act," she said.
"Before I had a plan that I had a $1,500 deductible," she said. "I paid $199 dollars a month. The most similar plan that I would have available to me would be $278 a month. My deductible would be $6,500 dollars, and all of my care after that point would only be covered 70 percent."
From the first post in this thread, A prime example of someone who was happy with her coverage being forced to buy a newer more expensive plan
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How are they cheaper? The amount you pay monthly is less but then you get a 5K, 10K deductible? What's the point of paying the premium? And before this goes any further, this has absolutely nothing to do with health care, this is all about health insurance. So you believe the precedent set here is acceptable, the government can "tax" you for inactivity?
For some people the new plans will be cheaper with lower deductibles, too. David Corn is re-tweeting tweets from people who are claiming this exactly. It seems to vary quite a bit, though, and depends on lots of factors so it's hard to get handle on percentages of people positively or negatively affected. Because of subsidies, I imagine that the only people getting screwed are people that make a decent amount of money who are self-employed (and therefore don't get insurance through their jobs like most people who make a decent amount of money). FWIW, I make $85K/year working for a huge international company with a small presence in NC and my plan (including premium) is not changing.
I totally hear ya about the health insurance vs healthcare argument but there are 3 things that keep me from freaking out about it.
1. A lot of people who didn't have much access to healthcare will now be covered.
2. I've gotten used to the idea of paying for auto insurance which seems like pretty much the same sorta thing.
3. I'm hoping that this insurance BS is only a stop-gap measure before we ultimately get single payer.
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Natalie Willes is a sleep consultant who helps parents in Los Angeles train their newborns to sleep. She buys her own health insurance.
"I was completely happy with the insurance I had before," Willes said.
So she was surprised when she tried to renew her policy. What did she find out?
"That my insurance was going to be completely different, and they were going to be replaced with 10 new plans that were going to fall under the regulations of the Affordable Care Act," she said.
"Before I had a plan that I had a $1,500 deductible," she said. "I paid $199 dollars a month. The most similar plan that I would have available to me would be $278 a month. My deductible would be $6,500 dollars, and all of my care after that point would only be covered 70 percent."
From the first post in this thread, A prime example of someone who was happy with her coverage being forced to buy a newer more expensive plan
TmcT, Don't you know that I can also find easily find anecdotal evidence from others whose experience is the direct opposite? Particularly when you include all the people with serious pre-existing conditions. Those people, in many cases, when not saving waaaay more than Natalie is losing, are finally being able to get ANY kind of health insurance. It is what it is. Sucks for some and a complete godsend for others. But it was put to a vote and now we'll see how it plays out. BTW, I'm going to see if I can fact check your example. Any idea how much money she makes per year? It was my understanding that states like CA (where Natalie lives) that took federal money to expand medicare and created their own exchanges were the states where pretty much everyone got a better deal.
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I appreciate the response at the very least, at least youre trying.
Its apparent though that youre not even an authority on this thread as those points have been addressed in the posts above. Many people will get better coverage with lower costs WHEN YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES!!!
MANY OTHERS will have much higher premiums and deductibles replacing plans they WERE COMPLETELY HAPPY WITH.
In your opinion was obama lying or just plain ignorant?
Obama was mistaken. That's clear. As far as his motivation? Depends on when he said it. Did he say it before it was voted on? Then that's shady and he should explain/apologize. If it was after, then who cares as long as it doesn't screw more people than it helps?
Why the ALL-CAPS when it comes to subsidies, anyway? Health insurance premiums are pretty much an income (maybe asset, too?) tax (regardless of what the Supreme Court said) and a sliding scale is pretty much accepted for that so what's the problem?
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TmcT, Don't you know that I can also find easily find anecdotal evidence from others whose experience is the direct opposite? Particularly when you include all the people with serious pre-existing conditions. Those people, in many cases, when not saving waaaay more than Natalie is losing, are finally being able to get ANY kind of health insurance. It is what it is. Sucks for some and a complete godsend for others. But it was put to a vote and now we'll see how it plays out. BTW, I'm going to see if I can fact check your example. Any idea how much money she makes per year? It was my understanding that states like CA (where Natalie lives) that took federal money to expand medicare and created their own exchanges were the states where pretty much everyone got a better deal.
of course you can, thats not the point the point is this shit bill is not anywhere near what it was sold as to get passed on a strict party line vote...
and what source exactly are you using that says pretty much everyone got a better deal?
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Obama was mistaken. That's clear. As far as his motivation? Depends on when he said it. Did he say it before it was voted on? Then that's shady and he should explain/apologize. If it was after, then who cares as long as it doesn't screw more people than it helps?
Why the ALL-CAPS when it comes to subsidies, anyway? Health insurance premiums are pretty much an income (maybe asset, too?) tax (regardless of what the Supreme Court said) and a sliding scale is pretty much accepted for that so what's the problem?
1st how are insurance premiums a income tax? and exactly how are they sliding scale based on income?
2nd he said it constantly before and after it was passed and has not mentioned it since these people who he obviously knew would get fucked received their letters of notice. If it wasnt obvious to him that this bill was going to fuck over certain people then his judgement needs to be seriously questioned.
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For some people the new plans will be cheaper with lower deductibles, too. David Corn is re-tweeting tweets from people who are claiming this exactly. It seems to vary quite a bit, though, and depends on lots of factors so it's hard to get handle on percentages of people positively or negatively affected. Because of subsidies, I imagine that the only people getting screwed are people that make a decent amount of money who are self-employed (and therefore don't get insurance through their jobs like most people who make a decent amount of money). FWIW, I make $85K/year working for a huge international company with a small presence in NC and my plan (including premium) is not changing.
I totally hear ya about the health insurance vs healthcare argument but there are 3 things that keep me from freaking out about it.
1. A lot of people who didn't have much access to healthcare will now be covered.
2. I've gotten used to the idea of paying for auto insurance which seems like pretty much the same sorta thing.
3. I'm hoping that this insurance BS is only a stop-gap measure before we ultimately get single payer.
1) Everyone has access to healthcare, no one can be turned away.
2) That is state not federal law.
3) Your going to have to explain to me how single payer is a good idea, I wouldn't trust the federal government to clean my toilet in timely cost efficient manner.
Back to my other question, you don't have a problem with the federal government being able to tax you for inactivity? Whats next, you get taxed for buying a toyota instead of a GM? This is dangerous and could open the flood gates.
I hate to say it but I'm old enough to remember when single payer consisted of the patient paying the doctor, and aspirin didn't cost $300 a piece
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I appreciate the response at the very least, at least youre trying.
Its apparent though that youre not even an authority on this thread as those points have been addressed in the posts above. Many people will get better coverage with lower costs WHEN YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES!!!
MANY OTHERS will have much higher premiums and deductibles replacing plans they WERE COMPLETELY HAPPY WITH.
In your opinion was obama lying or just plain ignorant?
This important. It seems like a bit of a trick with the numbers and averages. Yes cost will go down for SOME because their coverage, if they had any to begin with, will be subsidized. Insuring all the preciously unsure and using tax dollars to do this has to cost something. I'm no tax expert or number cruncher but something doesn't seem right to me.
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bump for RRKORE, and Im not ragging on you at least you have the balls to stand up for your misguided views ;)
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1st how are insurance premiums a income tax? and exactly how are they sliding scale based on income?
2nd he said it constantly before and after it was passed and has not mentioned it since these people who he obviously knew would get fucked received their letters of notice. If it wasnt obvious to him that this bill was going to fuck over certain people then his judgement needs to be seriously questioned.
1. Like an income tax, the more income you have, the more you pay because of subsidies for the lower income folks. (Sliding scale for fees.)
2. Well he should apologize and explain. It's not the end of the world. ACA is going to really help a lot of folks. Keep making noise about it, though. That's what will get us to the single-payer system. :)
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1. Like an income tax, the more income you have, the more you pay because of subsidies for the lower income folks. (Sliding scale for fees.)
2. Well he should apologize and explain. It's not the end of the world. ACA is going to really help a lot of folks. Keep making noise about it, though. That's what will get us to the single-payer system. :)
not at all, your premiums arent based on income they are based on coverage. where did you get that from?
now govt subsidies are based on income but the premiums are the same its just who pays....
its yet another example of how this is a shit bill and was completely misrepresented to get it passed. Also Ive said since day one that one of the reasons the dems passed this bill knowing the entire time it was a horrible piece of legislation was b/c it was one step closer to a single payer system and it would force the issue b/c we would be forced to fix this shit bill.
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1) Everyone has access to healthcare, no one can be turned away.
2) That is state not federal law.
3) Your going to have to explain to me how single payer is a good idea, I wouldn't trust the federal government to clean my toilet in timely cost efficient manner.
Back to my other question, you don't have a problem with the federal government being able to tax you for inactivity? Whats next, you get taxed for buying a toyota instead of a GM? This is dangerous and could open the flood gates.
I hate to say it but I'm old enough to remember when single payer consisted of the patient paying the doctor, and aspirin didn't cost $300 a piece
1) Healthcare ≠ Emergency Healthcare (And they WILL turn you away if it's not an emergency -- Hell, I have health insurance and the the urgent care clinic down the street won't see me unless I first cough up my doctor's visit co-pay (10 whole dollars).
2) Me and my wallet don't give a shit about federal vs state law. Money is money.
3) Gonna rant a little here: I hate this "government-can't-do-anything-right" BS. (I feel like the moneyed interests help to foster this idea because they want to be left alone do dirty in secret.) Anyway, the Gov't does a lot of stuff right. Otherwise why was everyone crying about halfway unimportant shit during the shutdown? The zoos and war memorials were closed? Guess the government usually does Ok with that shit, right? Also, today is not yesteryear; With the internet making the spreading of news so easy (net neutrality is critically important) it should be much easier to have effective oversight over even very large programs. Humans love to gossip (reveal secrets) and I think it's now more possible than ever have some faith in large programs. (This ACA website shit is only a speed bump, you watch.)
Regarding why single-payer is the way to go, it comes down to saving money:
1. Insurance industry does not exist. No more taking 1/3 of every healthcare dollar.
2. Medical costs, especially for drugs, should go down due to purchasing power alone. Just like when Wal-mart goes to China and tells its suppliers what price the suppliers will charge (and the suppliers just cave because Walmart has no competitor), the US government will be able to do the same thing because it will be the only customer of any real size. Other 1st world countries already do this -- And it's why their per capita healthcare costs are so much lower than ours.
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not at all, your premiums arent based on income they are based on coverage. where did you get that from?
now govt subsidies are based on income but the premiums are the same its just who pays....
its yet another example of how this is a shit bill and was completely misrepresented to get it passed. Also Ive said since day one that one of the reasons the dems passed this bill knowing the entire time it was a horrible piece of legislation was b/c it was one step closer to a single payer system and it would force the issue b/c we would be forced to fix this shit bill.
Sure. Sorry, I thought I was clear enough. The percentage of the premium you pay (the un-subsidized portion of the premium) depends on your income level. The more income you have, the bigger the percentage of your premium that you pay (not to exceed 100% of the premium).
And your last paragraph is a reason to rejoice, imo. Single-payer is the way to go (unless you work in the insurance industry).
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Sure. Sorry, I thought I was clear enough. The percentage of the premium you pay (the un-subsidized portion of the premium) depends on your income level. The more income you have, the bigger the percentage of your premium that you pay (not to exceed 100% of the premium).
And your last paragraph is a reason to rejoice, imo. Single-payer is the way to go (unless you work in the insurance industry).
exactly the premium isnt based on income at all its based on coverage
the amount you take from tax payers is what is on a sliding scale
right except if you want good healthcare options and results, and if youre for bringing down the healthcare of others....
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Obamacare is already collapsing as predicted. Good.
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All I have to say about this is the federal government was instrumental in setting up the insurance industry in its current form, so yes IMHO just about everything the federal government touches turns to shit
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All I have to say about this is the federal government was instrumental in setting up the insurance industry in its current form, so yes IMHO just about everything the federal government touches turns to shit
Patience, brother. President Elizabeth Warren will straighten that shit out.
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This is absurd.
If you like your plan, you CAN KEEP IT.
If you want a different plan, you can sign up for the ACA online and it will be CHEAPER (9 times out of 10) than your current plan anyway.
The whole reason for the ACA is to make sure EVERYONE is able to have healthcare instead of dying in the streets while rich neocon repukes step over you. How are "millions set to lose healthcare" now that everyone is able to get healthcare?
Think about it for a second morons
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This is absurd.
If you like your plan, you CAN KEEP IT.
If you want a different plan, you can sign up for the ACA online and it will be CHEAPER (9 times out of 10) than your current plan anyway.
The whole reason for the ACA is to make sure EVERYONE is able to have healthcare instead of dying in the streets while rich neocon repukes step over you. How are "millions set to lose healthcare" now that everyone is able to get healthcare?
Think about it for a second morons
First there are plenty of examples of people who want to keep their plan who will not be able to
Second, where do you get it will be cheaper 9 out of 10 times? there are plenty of examples of replacement plans being much more expensive
Third simply b/c you can go sign up for another plan doesnt mean you didnt lose your current one. You know that promise obama made again and again?
you see what I mean RRKORE, the amount of bull shit you libtards will believe....
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This is absurd.
If you like your plan, you CAN KEEP IT.
If you want a different plan, you could sign up for the ACA online, if the site actually worked, and it will be CHEAPER more expensive (9 times out of 10) than your current plan anyway.
The whole reason for the ACA is to make sure EVERYONE is forced to buy overpriced healthcare instead of dying in the streets while rich neocon repukes step over you. How are "millions set to lose healthcare" now that everyone is able to get healthcare?
Think about it for a second morons
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This is absurd.
If you like your plan, you CAN KEEP IT.
If you want a different plan, you can sign up for the ACA online and it will be CHEAPER (9 times out of 10) than your current plan anyway.
The whole reason for the ACA is to make sure EVERYONE is able to have healthcare instead of dying in the streets while rich neocon repukes step over you. How are "millions set to lose healthcare" now that everyone is able to get healthcare?
Think about it for a second morons
I hope you are trolling
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I hope you are trolling
probably not. this is what the masses were told during the election.