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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: the trainer on March 26, 2014, 04:28:43 PM
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I have always being a high volume workout guy from as long as I can remember But I feel like switching it up, for you guys who have done high intensity training how do you compare the results to high volume training.
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if you keep worrying about this crap youll make this post once a year for the rest of your life , continuing the cycle indefinitly in misery
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if you keep worrying about this crap youll make this post once a year for the rest of your life , continuing the cycle indefinitly in misery
what are you talking about arnold was a high volume guy while dorian was a hight intensity guy I just want to see what the average dude experience is with these kind of workouts.
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I get much better workouts and results from more intense, heavier, less frequent training. Note- this may have a considerable genetic component. Apparently have genes for explosive strength and almost none for long term endurance.
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Try it and find out. I used HiT for a few months and received pretty good results. However.....Here is what I think. I was quite a bit younger than I am now,I had already been a regular solid trainer some some years in a row. I was already in great shape. I feel that going from volume training to Hit was going to provide results no matter what do to the fact that your body needs a change up in training to produce continuous gains in either duration of reps and sets or pure strength. My best results in size and strength came from 3 days per week at 40 min of total time in training per session.
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HIT/HD are good. Over the last 39+ years I have trained volume and Heavy Duty. The first time I tried Mentzer's way was in '77 or so and it didn't work at all for me, so back to volume.
That meant spending 2.5 hours a day (sometimes twice a day) 6 days a week in the gym. That sucks. It also meant eating like every meal was the last supper. That sucks too. A few years ago I decided to give HD another try and low and behold it worked! I began to get bigger and stronger and I was only spending maybe 15 minutes in the gym every two or three days. I had my son help me out and he said it was too much for him to want to train this way. I had a brief but thorough warm up and then did two working sets of two different exercises to total failure and with his help, beyond.
My joints really took a pounding and I gradually modified HD/HIT to fit my needs. I now train between 2 and 4 times a week, up to 9 sets per body part. Sometimes heavy sometimes light, depending upon how I feel. If I need another days rest, I take it! If I need two more days rest, I take it. I listen to myself, my body. Days I feel stronger I put more into it, or so it feels. Other days I train just as hard but if compared to my good days it wouldn't look it. But each time I lift I give my best and always keep in mind to push myself hard, but not over the cliff.
I like doing a single set or maybe two of light weight and high reps (20 to 50) some days. Other days I will do things like negative chins or dips with a weight around my waist. Single reps of negatives five consecutive times followed by those one or two high rep sets and I am done. At this point in my life I may have nothing to prove but I do have something I want to keep. Looking and feeling the best I can via regular exercise.
And a life outside the gym. Mike Mentzer showed us we can have a life and still train hard and look and feel pretty good. My sessions last between 15 minutes and 45 minutes. I wouldn't go back to 2.5 hours a day, six days a week for anything other than having my youth restored. ;D Once that happened I would resume training as I just outlined.
I hope this proved helpful. All the best!
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Thanks for the replies guys I am going to give HIT a shot starting tomorrrow.
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I've been doing DC for close to 10 years. I'll do volume when I cruise. Volume training is so damn boring. Once you get used to using a log book and making it your bitch its hard to go back to just wandering around the gym looking for light weights.
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I think HIT is better,you will burn fat without and replace it with muscle. I like this training style because you don't lose much weight. You can stay pretty much the same weight but still get fucking shredded especially if you are on a low carb diet. The body will use fat for energy and the end result is you lose alot of fat and gain a shitload of muscle.
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I've been doing high volume for selected body parts for the past few months - chest, back and shoulders mainly.
The pump is cool but it takes a lot of time.
Always had very good results on a low volume high intensity programme, but I'm getting older and find that training this way now leaves me with some joint pain.
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Both will work but volume is better for your joints and safer as far as preventing muscle tears. I've done both but in my 30s now so mainly sticking with volume. It's cool doing hit and getting stronger but at a certain age I think a lot of us start thinking about health and use volume to get a good pump and squeeze. Mind muscle connection of peace.
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Both will work but volume is better for your joints and safer as far as preventing muscle tears. I've done both but in my 30s now so mainly sticking with volume. It's cool doing hit and getting stronger but at a certain age I think a lot of us start thinking about health and use volume to get a good pump and squeeze. Mind muscle connection of peace.
Not true,you just have to be smart and use weights you can control. Both will work. I think it dosn't hurt to rotate training styles every month or two.
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Not true,you just have to be smart and use weights you can control. Both will work. I think it dosn't hurt to rotate training styles every month or two.
Rotating training styles is good, agreed.
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I've always been more into HIT doing it Dorians style. Volume style is easier though...most people will puke the first times doing HIT. Doing legs esp. I was training with Dorian fo a while and that dude is hardcore all the way. Make sure to have a spotter!
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I have never trained high volume in my life. How does one do something like that? Just picking a light weight and endlessly pumping out set after set?
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what are you talking about arnold was a high volume guy while dorian was a hight intensity guy I just want to see what the average dude experience is with these kind of workouts.
what do you think happens hmm lets find an expert
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I have always being a high volume workout guy from as long as I can remember But I feel like switching it up, for you guys who have done high intensity training how do you compare the results to high volume training.
I've done HIT since 1995. Three weekly workouts, never more than 45mins. Nowadays it's 3 days for an hour. But half of that time is stretching and warming up. Never found a reason to change it. I can't go heavy like when i was a teen or early 20s but i still don't do high volume.
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My training is mostly based on Max-OT but I like volume as well.
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I've been doing DC for close to 10 years. I'll do volume when I cruise. Volume training is so damn boring. Once you get used to using a log book and making it your bitch its hard to go back to just wandering around the gym looking for light weights.
Lol, what a waste of time for a bodybuilder.
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I think it really depends on your individual preference and genetics. Ive always been amazed at how two styles of training, at completely opposite ends of the spectrum, can both result in amazing (and often fairly similar) physiques. Immediately that reasoning alone would seem to advocate HIT considering that you get more out of less.
But in truth it takes a certain type of trainer to really make HIT work - one who can forget about training and not be obsessed about most of the time but has to be able to shut off every other part of their life as soon as a session begins. I think most people think that they can go in for a HIT session and really give it their all, go 110%. But in reality a true Mentzer type HIT program doesn't work for most (myself included) simply because they do not reach the required level of intensity. I think Dorian's style was a little bit more lenient in that he would use multiple exercises for a body part, so this might be a better style for most to use who go down the HIT route.
For me (and Im sure this would be the same for most trainers) a period of HIT should be included at some point, simply for a change of pace, but also for a trainer to discover exactly how intense they are capable of becoming.
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Depend of what is for You High Volume and HIT.
For example Chest
Incline Barbell Press: 4 sets x 10-6 reps
Flat Dumbbell Press: 4 sets x 12-8 reps
Incline Dumbbell Flyes: 4 sets x 12-8 reps
Dumbbell Pullovers: 4 sets x 12-10 reps
Cable Crossovers: 4 sets x 15-12 reps
1/2 sets per exercises to positive failure, in isolation exercises drop sets, slow reps, etc. Is it for You High Volume or HIT type of training? ;)
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I've done HIT since 1995. Three weekly workouts, never more than 45mins. Nowadays it's 3 days for an hour. But half of that time is stretching and warming up. Never found a reason to change it. I can't go heavy like when i was a teen or early 20s but i still don't do high volume.
And I bet you haven't changed the size of your muscles, either. Why not try something different. Like training arms every 3rd day for about an hour. See if you can gain an inch on your arms. If you can then apply what you know to other body parts but don't do too many parts on the same day.
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I have never had the recovery hability to do volume training.
Mentzer style was always my thing, maybe not so minimalistic but very few sets of compound exercises.
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Depend of what is for You High Volume and HIT.
For example Chest
Incline Barbell Press: 4 sets x 10-6 reps
Flat Dumbbell Press: 4 sets x 12-8 reps
Incline Dumbbell Flyes: 4 sets x 12-8 reps
Dumbbell Pullovers: 4 sets x 12-10 reps
Cable Crossovers: 4 sets x 15-12 reps
1/2 sets per exercises to positive failure, in isolation exercises drop sets, slow reps, etc. Is it for You High Volume or HIT type of training? ;)
. To my mind thats high volume. I did legs, chest and abs yesterday. Did 2 more sets than you have listed. Total. Warmups with lighter weights included. Will go again in 2 to 4 days. To me thats HIT/ low volume.
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And I bet you haven't changed the size of your muscles, either. Why not try something different. Like training arms every 3rd day for about an hour. See if you can gain an inch on your arms. If you can then apply what you know to other body parts but don't do too many parts on the same day.
Ok haven't done high volume since 1979. Didn't grow on it then. Stopped at 185 lbs. currently sitting at 262 lbs. You do the math :)
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Ok haven't done high volume since 1979. Didn't grow on it then. Stopped at 185 lbs. currently sitting at 262 lbs at 33% BF. You do the math :)
FIXED
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. To my mind thats high volume. I did legs, chest and abs yesterday. Did 2 more sets than you have listed. Total. Warmups with lighter weights included. Will go again in 2 to 4 days. To me thats HIT/ low volume.
Yea. I can't understand how people can train High Volume ( 20 sets+ for body part ) with drop sets, low reps ( 5-6 ) in frequency like 4on/1off... I mean High Volume and train one body party every 4/5 days... It's odds-on overtrain but people do it...
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I DO BOTH EACH WORKOUT
No issues then.
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I just do what I feel like now when I go to the gym
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FIXED
Glad you are. Would hate for you to reproduce.
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Glad you are. Would hate for you to reproduce.
You must be a monster at 262lbs of solid muscle. Care to post a picture to show us what HIT can do for one's body?
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I just do what I feel like now when I go to the gym
I am starting to come around to this way of thinking. Today, I just did arms, even though it was a scheduled "conditioning" day.
Fuck that.
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You must be a monster at 262lbs of solid muscle. Care to post a picture to show us what HIT can do for one's body?
At 6'2" with big bones and 30 years of HARD training- with HRT the last 10 years and a starting weight of 185, what's the surprise? I wouldn't bother lifting for no results.
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At 6'2" with big bones and 30 years of HARD training- with HRT the last 10 years and a starting weight of 185, what's the surprise? I wouldn't bother lifting for no results.
262 is quite large, unless you're 7 foot.
So is that a "no" on the photo? Don't be shy, we give credit IF it's due
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The best training you can do is the one you ENJOY!!! If you don't want to spend hours in the gym, don.t. If you do, do it. There are so many "experts" that say each one is the best way to train. I personally train HIT. MY preferrance, that's all. Train the way you want to and you will see progress. As long as you are happy, who cares what strangers say on the internet. Barretta
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Next thread will be who should have won the 1980 Olympia.
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I am starting to come around to this way of thinking. Today, I just did arms, even though it was a scheduled "conditioning" day.
Fuck that.
Lol, conditioning day. ;D
Do you have a rinse and a blow wave afterwards?
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Lol, conditioning day. ;D
Do you have a rinse and a blow wave afterwards?
LOL. It seems so homo to write it out. I am almost afraid to mention that it frequently involves kettlebells. *Sob*.
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I DO BOTH EACH WORKOUT
No issues then.
this
i never get the either or debate, when you can have the best of both worlds.
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LOL. It seems so homo to write it out. I am almost afraid to mention that it frequently involves kettlebells. *Sob*.
I train with elastic bands mate, Im not one to judge.
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I have always being a high volume workout guy from as long as I can remember But I feel like switching it up, for you guys who have done high intensity training how do you compare the results to high volume training.
Based on the fact that Mentzer died barely over 40, and the high volume trainers mostly are still alive, I prefer volume, its great cutting too, spending long sessions in the gym lifting weight after weight feels good.
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Why we can find in the Internet 100+ Training Programms and why all of them are working? Becouse you grow or cut from food ( and maybe AAS... ), training is only fking stimulus. Train smart, harder from session to session and enjoy from it, it's enough ???
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I DO BOTH EACH WORKOUT
No issues then.
Both each workout? Both High Volume and High Intensity Training(HIT)? That's not HIT, that's
Super
High
Intensity
Training
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Both each workout? Both High Volume and High Intensity Training(HIT)? That's not HIT, that's
Super
High
Intensity
Training
I never count sets or reps when I go to the gym, I work the muscle to failure, I do high rep sets and low rep partials, I pre exhaust before compounds, sometimes I dont.
I have never done the same workout twice for years.
Are you saying you cant do high volume sets and low volume sets in the same workout?
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I never count sets or reps when I go to the gym, I work the muscle to failure, I do high rep sets and low rep partials, I pre exhaust before compounds, sometimes I dont.
I have never done the same workout twice for years.
Are you saying you cant do high volume sets and low volume sets in the same workout?
Nah, just trolling. :)
Good work!
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I'm currently doing volume training myself but using the 10 sets 10 reps plan 3 days a week.
Day 1: Quads, hams & calves
Day 2: rest
Day 3: Chest, delts & tris
Day 4: rest
Day 5: Back, bis & abs
Day 6: rest
Day 7: rest
One movement per body part, and of course compound movements are best and they get the 10x10 treatment usually around 60% of your max with only a second rest. Biceps, triceps and abs 3x10 (biceps I still shoot for 10x10)
My entire leg region was killing me until today and chest, delts n tris are feeling the pain today with round three up tonight.
I like it cause I can still train for size without beating up my joints going heavy all the time, but also learning to break through the pain as the set get harder n harder. I'll be doing this for 4-6 weeks then I'll go back to my full body training.
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The first thing to do before deciding which training method to implement,is to join a fucking gym.......on this site,that would be a rarity! :D
PS-JUST FUCKING LIFT!!
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After much thinking I decided to combine them do mid volume with higher intensity that way I get the best of both worlds.
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I never count sets or reps when I go to the gym, I work the muscle to failure, I do high rep sets and low rep partials, I pre exhaust before compounds, sometimes I dont.
I have never done the same workout twice for years.
Are you saying you cant do high volume sets and low volume sets in the same workout?
This.
It's telling that it's always the experienced guys with the best pbysiques that dont follow some dogshit dogmatic approach to training.
It's picking things up and putting them down.
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Do You Guys think is it possible to make gains on 6 days in week lifting? ;)
( You don't grow in the gym and other theories like this... ::) )
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This.
It's telling that it's always the experienced guys with the best pbysiques that dont follow some dogshit dogmatic approach to training.
It's picking things up and putting them down.
I want to be like this, but I have to have at least an idea of what I want to do in the gym before I go. Then I refer to my logbook (oh, brother) for weights that I completed previously to see where I want to start.
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Do You Guys think is it possible to make gains on 6 days in week lifting? ;)
( You don't grow in the gym and other theories like this... ::) )
No you wont unless you are a genetic freak or you are on a boatload of roids.
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Having trained at Temple Gym for about 15 years I grew up on HIT but after I left and tried volume training I've made so much more progress. Just got to find what works for you, all that heavy duty 6-8 reps a set stuff just doesn't do it for me.
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I want to be like this, but I have to have at least an idea of what I want circularin the gym before I go. Then I refer to my logbook (oh, brother) for weights that I completed previously to see where I want to start.
I dont keep track of poundage. I mean I know how strong I am but it's not the reason I'm there and I am not trying to hit certain reps/poundages.
For example on a lat pulldown I'll just put the pin in somewhere near the bottom and just rep it out. It's all about exertion and effort.
Machines, free weights....preacher curl machine, dumbell curls, your muscles dont know the difference between a square weight attached to a cable or a circular one on a straight bar.
The one constant in my training is I work out very hard and I think about the kineseology of my body and what hits the target muscle most effectively
PS you can't just remember what weights you used ? I thought you were a smart guy....LOL ;D
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PS you can't just remember what weights you used ? I thought you were a smart guy....LOL ;D
Heh. It's what I make an effort to commit to memory. I have a lot of OCD-like gym behaviors that I will be revisiting in the near future as to their effectiveness given my new protocol.
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I dont keep track of poundage. I mean I know how strong I am but it's not the reason I'm there and I am not trying to hit certain reps/poundages.
For example on a lat pulldown I'll just put the pin in somewhere near the bottom and just rep it out. It's all about exertion and effort.
Machines, free weights....preacher curl machine, dumbell curls, your muscles dont know the difference between a square weight attached to a cable or a circular one on a straight bar.
The one constant in my training is I work out very hard and I think about the kineseology of my body and what hits the target muscle most effectively
PS you can't just remember what weights you used ? I thought you were a smart guy....LOL ;D
. Just use the stack on everything. Nothing to remember that way.
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Having trained at Temple Gym for about 15 years I grew up on HIT but after I left and tried volume training I've made so much more progress. Just got to find what works for you, all that heavy duty 6-8 reps a set stuff just doesn't do it for me.
You can do HIT with higher reps. Indeed, the protocol suggested by Jones,Darden, et al was to do 8 to 12 reps. Upper body, 15-20 lower body. That's BEFORE any forced or negative reps. Mentzer dropped the rep range because that worked better for him- Mr White Fiber.
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The first thing to do before deciding which training method to implement,is to join a fucking gym.......on this site,that would be a rarity! :D
PS-JUST FUCKING LIFT!!
haha i was thinking the same thing- you mean people here actually train? :D
as for methodology sounds like groink and I are on the same page - lol @ I just put the pin in the stack and start my set- exactly the same here.
I only know what I'm training that day. I don't know the exercises, how many sets of that exercise I'll do, how long I'll train, there is nothing static than the fact I am in the gym to train. after that it's pretty much wide open.
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Same here......totally instinctive training for me, other than a set bodypart schedule.......workouts and exercise selection vary from workout to workout, as do poundages..........all depends on how I feel on any given day.
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Do You Guys think is it possible to make gains on 6 days in week lifting? ;)
( You don't grow in the gym and other theories like this... ::) )
Of course,as long as sleep/rest,and nutrition are in order.
It also helps if you`re on gear,and your propensity or lack thereof for putting on muscle mass,ie.,GENETICS.
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If anyone understood the scientific method they would understand the superiority of Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer used to formulating their programs. Dorian proved that with below perfect genetics (compared to Wheeler, Levrone and company) a program designed with high intensity and maximum recovery (don't care if u count his warm ups as sets, they were warm ups for him and more importantly he rested a day after working out with weights, this is key) he could beat the worlds best, most genetically gifted , who by most accounts were using double or triple the gear he was using.
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If anyone understood the scientific method they would understand the superiority of Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer used to formulating their programs. Dorian proved that with below perfect genetics (compared to Wheeler, Levrone and company) a program designed with high intensity and maximum recovery (don't care if u count his warm ups as sets, they were warm ups for him and more importantly he rested a day after working out with weights, this is key) he could beat the worlds best, most genetically gifted , who by most accounts were using double or triple the gear he was using.
You should write childrens books
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You should write childrens books
;D
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Based on the fact that Mentzer died barely over 40, and the high volume trainers mostly are still alive, I prefer volume, its great cutting too, spending long sessions in the gym lifting weight after weight feels good.
Mentzer was just shy of 50 yo and his training protocol had nothing to do with his mortality.
Lets make a list of all the bodybuilders that have had premature deaths over the last five years and see how many were volume or HIT trainers.
All were volume trainers. But again it had nothing to do with their deaths.
Jeeze, talk about stretching the "facts" to coincide with your world view.
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Having trained at Temple Gym for about 15 years I grew up on HIT but after I left and tried volume training I've made so much more progress. Just got to find what works for you, all that heavy duty 6-8 reps a set stuff just doesn't do it for me.
So if you don't train to positive failure how intense do you take a set. Say you can do 200 pounds for ten reps failing to complete an 11th rep. How many reps would you do? 7? 8? 9?
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Mike's death at his age had nothing to do with Arthur Jones or H.I.T. ~
Even if it really had to do with nothing more than his illicit obsession for meth, I would be more inclined to blame his insane friendship as a Guinea Pig for Dan Duchaine than anything else.
People spend more time analyzing these days than actually working. I guess with the internet and "social media" that is so much easier to do....
I don't remember questioning the weights much... ever. I just remember lifting, eating, sleeping and growing... over and over and over again.
Then we started feeling the need to really "name" everything we did, whether it be a Weider name (which pretty much covered the spectrum) or even today... getting into something as stupid as FST7 and acting like it really carries some credence that another style doesn't.
The only thing that really doesn't work is: inconsistency, light weights, lack of motivation, enthusiasm and desire... and talking too much.
I guess the only other thing that really doesn't work either is... this thing called "natural" bodybuilding. It's an oxymoron. Morons. ;D
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Same here......totally instinctive training for me, other than a set bodypart schedule.......workouts and exercise selection vary from workout to workout, as do poundages..........all depends on how I feel on any given day.
I remember you kept a blog of your training here I believe. So it's instinctive but you wrote down the workout as you went along or after? I can count on my hand how many times I have trained instinctive. I know so many successful lifters do. Yates said if he trained instinctively he would take a nap instead of hitting the gym. The list of top bodybuilders who use instinctive training is huge.
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If anyone understood the scientific method they would understand the superiority of Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer used to formulating their programs. Dorian proved that with below perfect genetics (compared to Wheeler, Levrone and company) a program designed with high intensity and maximum recovery (don't care if u count his warm ups as sets, they were warm ups for him and more importantly he rested a day after working out with weights, this is key) he could beat the worlds best, most genetically gifted , who by most accounts were using double or triple the gear he was using.
The scientific method is never based on anecdotal experiences. So even if Dorian was successful that hardly proves that Heavy Duty is the best training method. Besides, what about longevity and safety? Any method that causes muscle or connective tissue injuries is hardly a good method. I am convinced that HIT is false. Arthur Jones was perhaps the smartest man to lift a weight and concoct a theory about hypertrophy. His theory is false. High Intensity is not what builds the most muscle mass. How do we know? Well, have a look at what everyone who is big is doing. Volume. There is no other way. HIT has been around for around 45 years. If it produced champions that is how everyone would be training. It never happened. Of course, the HIT believers would say that those who failed via HIT didn't do it right. They didn't lift with enough intensity. Nope, volume with significant resistances and special exercises is what builds large muscles. What a shame because it would have been nice to have those short, brief workouts instead of having to do volume.
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I remember you kept a blog of your training here I believe. So it's instinctive but you wrote down the workout as you went along or after? I can count on my hand how many times I have trained instinctive. I know so many successful lifters do. Yates said if he trained instinctively he would take a nap instead of hitting the gym. The list of top bodybuilders who use instinctive training is huge.
Seriously, if hypertrophy were related to instinct then we might as well give up talking about it. There is no such thing as instinctive training. How would you describe such training to a scientist so he could test that theory?
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Seriously, if hypertrophy were related to instinct then we might as well give up talking about it. There is no such thing as instinctive training. How would you describe such training to a scientist so he could test that theory?
A tested theory is a fact. There are no facts about training protocol. If there was a factual best way to scientifically train we all would be doing the same split, same reps and same exercises. Bodybuilders are not exercise scientists. Some of the dumbest guys around are successful bodybuilders.
Maybe a better way to describe instinctive training would be to label it listening to your recovery. No successful runners run according to heart rate monitors all though I'm sure a few use this tool from time to time. In general if they feel good they push it and if they don't they do what they can do.
Many successful bodybuilders go to the gym with no game plan except they know it's back day. They might start off with chins knowing they started last workout with pulldowns. Next might be narrow V grip low pulley rows and the last workout was barbell rows etc. Maybe they decide on the fly last time was high reps now they are going for 6 to 8 reps. As long as they are perceptively and factually working hard they are stimulating positive adaptation.
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So if you don't train to positive failure how intense do you take a set. Say you can do 200 pounds for ten reps failing to complete an 11th rep. How many reps would you do? 7? 8? 9?
But I do train to positive failure, always. Is that still classed as HIT regardless of how many reps you do? Sounds like I do a combination of HIT and volume training, as stated by Viking in his reply to me above. Positive failure for me usually involves taking a weight I can do 12-15 reps with and repping out to that point before any negatives or forced reps.
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I have been a HIT guy forever but I see the light now. I started HIT protocol in 1977 then followed it for decade after decade. The way I see it if you do one warm up set of say curls, then do your one set to failure of 10 reps did you truly stimulate all muscle fibers? I say no.
A more productive method would be to do 4 sets of 10 reps for barbell curls. The first you stop at 10 knowing you could have reached failure at say 16. The second set you stop at 10 reps this time you could have gotten 13 reps to failure. The third you hit ten reps and now it's really tough. You could have gotten that 11 rep. On you last set you fail at 9 or 10 reps. Training like this is training for muscular endurance and that's what I believe stimulates muscle growth the best.
If you like HIT train with it. HIT enthusiasts are filled with pompous egotists who think they are scientists because they follow with almost religious fervor Jones and Darden. Jones and Darden biggest deception is that they looked for volume champs then they used their pictures to promote their training protocol. To this day guys still think Sergio Oliva is a HIT guy because he was paid to go down to Florida for a couple of weeks by Jones. Anyone who has seen Sergio train can attest he trained with volume his whole career. Mentzer and Viator were both observed doing a lot more sets in the gym than what was written. David Young trained in the same gym as Viator and said he counted 16 sets for one body part. Mentzer was another who after he finished competing pushed one set to failure per body part and many days of rest when he never trained that way during his competitive years.
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Of course,as long as sleep/rest,and nutrition are in order.
It also helps if you`re on gear,and your propensity or lack thereof for putting on muscle mass,ie.,GENETICS.
So i don't know why people says "not more than 3/4/5 days! you're going to overtrain even on 1g+ AAS, you grow in home, not in gym etc."
How many days do Guys train typically when you are in "Instinctive Training"? And why no less and no more?
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Seriously, if hypertrophy were related to instinct then we might as well give up talking about it. There is no such thing as instinctive training. How would you describe such training to a scientist so he could test that theory?
I think we should all start explaining our deepest, darkest and most intimate "feelings" to our muscles....
The end result would be the same.
Ayn Rand's theory/philosophy on life was absurd, and so is H.I.T. when followed with the precision that "objectivity" demanded... and supposedly "science"
Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer were both geniuses by their own right.
Superior mentality does not give an edge in fitness. And why do we call computer hacks "Geeks?" or those with superior mentality in school "Nerds?"
If it really took a superior amount of intelligence to build copious amounts of muscle....
There would be no such thing as a "Mr. Olympia"
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Even HIT guys use perceived exhaustion as a guide to days off.
Regarding Mentzer being a genius, why is this true? I know he told everyone he was repeatedly. He did drop out or flunk out of premed. He made me think and influenced my ideas on training more than any other bodybuilder.
I don't think anyone could say Jones wasn't smart. The question remains the same though. Was Jones right? With all of his knowledge he was a small out of shape looking guy for most of his years. He seemed to be in decent shape for a brief span in his early life. You would think for a guy who knew the answers in exercise he would have applied it to himself during Nautilus's hey day. Yet during Nautilus's prime years he couldn't have weighed over 155lbs and looked really bad.
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I dont keep track of poundage. I mean I know how strong I am but it's not the reason I'm there and I am not trying to hit certain reps/poundages.
For example on a lat pulldown I'll just put the pin in somewhere near the bottom and just rep it out. It's all about exertion and effort.
Machines, free weights....preacher curl machine, dumbell curls, your muscles dont know the difference between a square weight attached to a cable or a circular one on a straight bar.
The one constant in my training is I work out very hard and I think about the kineseology of my body and what hits the target muscle most effectively
PS you can't just remember what weights you used ? I thought you were a smart guy....LOL ;D
This more than anything else, I have no idea what Im going to lift before I get there, I do a couple of sets and if I feel god I will up the weight, if I have any little niggles or are not getting a good pump, then I just stay at that weight or move onto another exercise.
Going for new records in the gym with high poundages leads to injury, its almost inevitable.
Training for a year injury free is far better that having 3 months off due to ego lifting.
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I remember you kept a blog of your training here I believe. So it's instinctive but you wrote down the workout as you went along or after? I can count on my hand how many times I have trained instinctive. I know so many successful lifters do. Yates said if he trained instinctively he would take a nap instead of hitting the gym. The list of top bodybuilders who use instinctive training is huge.
Rich,I`d write it after I trained.........I never sit and write in a workout..........it`s all hard work while in the gym.
One thing I can`t stand to see is some guy lollypoppin` around for 10 minutes scrawling nonsense in a notebook when he could have done 2-3 intense sets.
I always know which bodypart I`m gonna` train,my split remains the same almost always:
Quads,Hams,Calves
Chest + Abs
Back,Traps
Shoulders,Calves
Arms
Rest
Rest
I formulate a plan a bit ahead of time.....maybe the night before or even on the drive to the gym,BUT,if something doesn`t feel right,I`ll change it at any time.........nothing`s carved in stone.except the bodypart split.
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This more than anything else, I have no idea what Im going to lift before I get there, I do a couple of sets and if I feel god I will up the weight, if I have any little niggles or are not getting a good pump, then I just stay at that weight or move onto another exercise.
Going for new records in the gym with high poundages leads to injury, its almost inevitable.
Training for a year injury free is far better that having 3 months off due to ego lifting.
Same here.^^
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Rich,I`d write it after I trained.........I never sit and write in a workout..........it`s all hard work while in the gym.
One thing I can`t stand to see is some guy lollypoppin` around for 10 minutes scrawling nonsense in a notebook when he could have done 2-3 intense sets.
I always know which bodypart I`m gonna` train,my split remains the same almost always:
Quads,Hams,Calves
Chest + Abs
Back,Traps
Shoulders,Calves
Arms
Rest
Rest
I formulate a plan a bit ahead of time.....maybe the night before or even on the drive to the gym,BUT,if something doesn`t feel right,I`ll change it at any time.........nothing`s carved in stone.except the bodypart split.
Like I said before I know so many successful bodybuilders who train like that. Many pros go to the gym and use the weight they feel they are up to that day. If they were following a script they would bang their head against the wall to get one more rep from last week's journal entry. I am guilty of being a journal anal junkie during training. When in a cycle I always try to beat last weeks entries and this leads to quick burn out.
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Rich,I`d write it after I trained.........I never sit and write in a workout..........it`s all hard work while in the gym.
One thing I can`t stand to see is some guy lollypoppin` around for 10 minutes scrawling nonsense in a notebook when he could have done 2-3 intense sets.
I always know which bodypart I`m gonna` train,my split remains the same almost always:
Quads,Hams,Calves
Chest + Abs
Back,Traps
Shoulders,Calves
Arms
Rest
Rest
I formulate a plan a bit ahead of time.....maybe the night before or even on the drive to the gym,BUT,if something doesn`t feel right,I`ll change it at any time.........nothing`s carved in stone.except the bodypart split.
It's nice Split, but i fking love train on sat and sun too so if i would like train with "instinctive" or something like that, this split will be:
Quads,Hams,Calves
Chest + Abs
Back,Traps
Shoulders,Calves
Arms
Repeat
But i don't think it's good idea ::) So sometimes, for any people it's good to have any plan :)
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Like I said before I know so many successful bodybuilders who train like that. Many pros go to the gym and use the weight they feel they are up to that day. If they were following a script they would bang their head against the wall to get one more rep from last week's journal entry. I am guilty of being a journal anal junkie during training. When in a cycle I always try to beat last weeks entries and this leads to quick burn out.
I used to do that,in fact,between you and I we`ve more than likely done everything there is to do in this game,but these days,I work with a weight that is out of my comfort zone n heavier sets,actually there is nevrer a comfort zone,but I don`t care about getting one more rep than last week,unless of course I can............I always listen to my bodys feedback and train accordingly.
If I feel strong on any given day,I go heavier,but regardless,I always go as heavy as I can for the amount of reps I`m shooting for, or as heavy as I can for the training protocol I`m using at any particular time.
I throw in a lot of intensity techniques and do certain things form wise to ensure I`m hitting the target muscle properly, which at times will limit my poundages,but is more effective for muscle building, which is my goal as opposed to just getting stronger.
At 58,I`m always stronger than the average slob on the street, and still, pound for pound, as strong as most guys in my gym if not stronger,but I don`t train for strength anymore at all.
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A lot of knowledge & experience posted in this thread....good stuff everybody
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A lot of knowledge & experience posted in this thread....good stuff everybody
It`s weird to actually discuss training and nutrition on getbig! LOL ;D
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It`s weird to actually discuss training and nutrition on getbig! LOL ;D
I only found out there was a training section after had been here two months. ;D
The G&O is the only section where people post regularly.
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Oldtimer1 right on with his post, one macho set just doesn't cause enough fatigue to the muscle. Dante strudel , mentzer, jones etc didn't understand that making that one set " super hard" with forced reps, negatives, rest pause just increased the stress on the CNS without any appreciable muscle growth stimuli.
For the main lift I pick a weight I can do 5-8 sets with, then for other exercises I'll use what're weight is on the machine when I get to it and force myself to make it hard by squeezing the reps
From training as a pler for years , CNS takes longer than muscles to recover anyway.
I thought people stopped talking about hit back when Clinton was getting impeached?
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Some people in this thread have no idea what real intensity training is so take a look.
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If you run as hard as you can for 400 meters you will be so exhausted you will have trouble standing up. That one lap will be brutal. If you're not running then your quarter miles will improved by this crazy method. Your one mile time will improve from doing that brutal lap. That one lap will be so hard that you probably couldn't do it ever day. Is this the optimal time way to train to improve your running? Absolutely no. It's as intense as it gets though.
A better approach would be to do 8 or 10 x 400 meters. You will push each 400 meters hard but not to the ragged edge until latter sets. This is one of the standard workouts for milers.
What am I trying to convey? Muscle fibers, the general consensus is that they are completely on or off. They aren't capable of variable pulling. If you need for the sake of this conversation 50 fibers then 50 fibers will turn on. If you are doing one set to failure when you fail there will be unused fibers. You will now this because if you failed at 10 reps and took a rest and tried it again you might get 8 reps. If you truly failed and stimulated all fibers you wouldn't be able to do any reps or just a few a minute later. This is obviously a simplification of what's happening.
HIT vs volume will never be settled. Going to failure is a tool. It shouldn't be a training protocol. Olympic lifters and Powerlifters don't train to failure every training session. Why do HIT guys say it's mandatory for strength and size gains? I believe getting stronger increases the size and density of a muscle but something else in play too. What increases a muscle size the most is it's adaptation to muscular endurance training and that is what volume training is.
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If you run as hard as you can for 400 meters you will be so exhausted you will have trouble standing up. That one lap will be brutal. If you're not running then your quarter miles will improved by this crazy method. Your one mile time will improve from doing that brutal lap. That one lap will be so hard that you probably couldn't do it ever day. Is this the optimal time way to train to improve your running? Absolutely no. It's as intense as it gets though.
A better approach would be to do 8 or 10 x 400 meters. You will push each 400 meters hard but not to the ragged edge until latter sets. This is one of the standard workouts for milers.
What am I trying to convey? Muscle fibers, the general consensus is that they are completely on or off. They aren't capable of variable pulling. If you need for the sake of this conversation 50 fibers then 50 fibers will turn on. If you are doing one set to failure when you fail there will be unused fibers. You will now this because if you failed at 10 reps and took a rest and tried it again you might get 8 reps. If you truly failed and stimulated all fibers you wouldn't be able to do any reps or just a few a minute later. This is obviously a simplification of what's happening.
HIT vs volume will never be settled. Going to failure is a tool. It shouldn't be a training protocol. Olympic lifters and Powerlifters don't train to failure every training session. Why do HIT guys say it's mandatory for strength and size gains? I believe getting stronger increases the size and density of a muscle but something else in play too. What increases a muscle size the most is it's adaptation to muscular endurance training and that is what volume training is.
If the stimulus for disparate resultant goals was the same, then that would be true.