Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: shiftedShapes on January 23, 2006, 09:11:08 AM
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Hand Stand Pushups by FAR
you don't need anything except a wall. These are the pushing analog of pull-ups, IMO everyone with the requisite strength to bodyweight ratio should be doing these. If you ever wondered why dudes in jail are so buff, it is because they are doing handstand push-ups all day in their cells.
Tuck planche push-ups, and tuck lever pullups are also great mass-builders and highly under-rated
All of these exercises will build mass across the shoulder girdle and strenghten the core.
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Well as an add on from what you put.
Id say dips, erferred to by many as the upper body squat.
davie
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Pullovers.
Dips are widely known; if anything they're hyped too much.
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i'd agree pullovers
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I don't see a lot of people doing dips for chest, especially not with added weight. So I'd say that's underrated for sure.
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Dips are very widely discussed on this forum, so they're not under-rated.
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If you want to change dips up, lift your hips such that your body is horizontal (parallel to the ground). You can still bend your legs, just make sure that your hips stay level with your shoulders during the rep. This is basically a tuck planche push-up. It is a lot harder than normal dips and it hits the upper chest a lot better.
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i used to do dips alot on chest day....i have really no idea why i stopped.
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If you want to change dips up, lift your hips such that your body is horizontal (parallel to the ground).
I think what you're saying is to have the upper body parallel to the ground. That should work well.
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what do you think is going to put on more size a 315lb. press behind neck or some hanstand pushups?
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what do you think is going to put on more size a 315lb. press behind neck or some hanstand pushups?
what if you weigh 320 lbs?
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The pullover & press is a very underrated exercise but a superior upper body mass builder. Probably better done with DB's rather than a BB because of the less stress on the wrist, which in turn can cause undue tension/stress on the elbows. Might even try them with a tricep bar (I never have, but just to see how that would workout) for that more natural (like DB's) grip. Dips(weighted) follow a close second and in my view a more productive exercise than the regular Bench Press. Dips may be discussed here but I would doubt very much in the rest of the BB'ing world as a solo foundation movement for the chest, delts & triceps. The Clean & press and HI-pulls. A very unnoticed movement is the jerk/push press off a rack, a mass builder and rather quickly. Standing one arm DB side presses are great for the shoulder girdle. For the biceps, reverse BB curls with the elbows held against the side throughout the exercise. Good Luck.
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Dips are very widely discussed on this forum, so they're not under-rated.
but only because i keep bringing them up
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I hope you're kidding. Every BB forum talks about dips incessantly as one of the fundamentals.
Dips may be discussed here but I would doubt very much in the rest of the BB'ing world as a solo foundation movement for the chest, delts & triceps.
Talk about a qualifier. The question's posed here on a site that broaches their application continually, as does every BB site. Actually, I think they're widely used in gyms.
Pullover & press is a great exercise.
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Agreed, but the question wasn't about what is the main exercise used-dips are widely used as a secondary chest/tri exercise.
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you guys forgot that if you dip you have to be able to lift your bodyweight. most ppl cant even do a pull up. and thats using more muscles then dips. lead a lone put most of their bodyweight on the chest/tris..so many ppl jump on the machine dips instead.. so if you count the machine dips then its not really underated at all...
most ppl cant do a hand stand push either unless you have been train to do so.
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dips dont work my chest as much as benching do. that is how i feel about it, although it is a mainstay of triceps work
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i've worked out at many gyms over the years, and there's no line of people about to do dips monday i can say that much, especially not as a "upper body massbuilder" exercise. so yeah i'd say it's underrated.
but if you disagree we could just for sport continue this discussion for some more pages.
or maybe talk about handstands using just one hand or something
:P
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What you're probably not getting is that peeps know all about dips, but don't want to do them. Nothing to do with under-rated-like chins, they're harder to do.
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never seen ronnie coleman do dips though.
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.
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Come to think of it, Markus Ruhl doesn't do it either, nor Craig Titus, nor Jay Cutler, nor Kevin Levrone, nor Lee Haney, nor Dorian Yates, nor Nasser el Sonbaty, nor Dennis James etc.
Both Lee Priest and Shawn Ray does it though. As a pump exercise, 5th outta 5 exercises for chest.
Hell, maybe it isn't underrated, maybe it's OVERrated, since pretty much no professional bodybuilder does it, there must be a reason for it.
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What's your opinion on the one arm press, talk about underrated upper body massbuilder :P
(http://www.mcshane-enterprises.com/ASL/images/Anderson/OneHandPress.jpg)
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I believe (it looks like Paul Andersen in the pic) that the gentleman is doing a Bent press rather than a one arm press. As mentioned above, the DB side press is a great mass builder but it is not to be confused with a regular one arm DB press or even a Bent Press. A Bud of mine does 210-235 (or so) DB side presses for 7-9 reps in his workouts. He does walk sideways through a normal size door and has a hard time fitting into the drivers seat of his car. He's short, about 5'7, and probably goes 250-260. Most heavy overhead lifts add impressive delt development. Good Luck.
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I have honestly fell in love with power Cleans. My shoulders have filled out in the front a little bit more, i can see differences in my traps now and my forearms are losing fat off of them and becoming extremely vascular and much stronger. Now if i could only find my magic for the rest of my arms
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i've worked out at many gyms over the years, and there's no line of people about to do dips monday
or Tues, or Wed.. or Sunday--- and if there was --you all that want to-- can take my place in those lines anyway--
I still need to do assisted dips ::) on our Gravitrons
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i think incline presses are underated.
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I have honestly fell in love with power Cleans. My shoulders have filled out in the front a little bit more, i can see differences in my traps now and my forearms are losing fat off of them and becoming extremely vascular and much stronger. Now if i could only find my magic for the rest of my arms
Power-Cleans are awesome.
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The problem with bodyweight excercises like pull-ups, headstand pushups and dips, is that they don't allow the practitioner to warm up. Even a really strong 200lb bodybuilder wouldn't do 200lb lat pulldowns on his first set, but that's what you have to do w/ pull ups. The same holds true w/ the other two excercises. Sooner or later you're gonna get hurt, especially if you're older.
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That's bogus man,
I weigh 116 kg, that's over 250lbs, and warm-up with pullups. After two or three sets, I use a belt with dumbells attached up to 70lbs (32kg). You cann't compare pullups with lat-pulleys in any way. The excercise and the position differ two much.
With pull-ups, you will try to get your upper-body horizontal and do a kind of high-row. With the latpulley, you start pulling with your lower back. You lower back can lift an amazing amount of weight, so cheating with the pulley is absolutely useless.
Cheating with pull-ups doesn't hurt you so much, you still using your back to lift the weight, the angle is slightly changed, but it still makes it a good excercise. And adding weight on a belt makes cheating by with "airwalking"(don't no how to describe it otherwise) almost impossible.
About dips, everyone knows the excersise, almost nobody performs it. Usually it's a combined rack for legraising and dipping. 9 out of time 10 times I see people do legraises.
There's also another machines where you can perform assisted dips, but that's the biggest piece of crap I've ever seen. Everybody should be able to lift their own weight without assistence. It's crucial for building the right amount of mass without getting the buffed look. I would recommend it to al girls, they usually tend to have big legs through running, cycling, and stepping, but skinny-ass upper body.
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High pull snatch is outstanding; 3 sets of 5 reps explosive nails the traps. I get a soreness the next day that shrugs could rarely generate.
pullovers - awesome exercise, really distributes mass all round the torso. If in some hypothetical world i was only allowed a single upper body exercise it would be this or chins
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I use dips to fill out my lower chest.
There isn't a chest day that I don't do dips.
handstands?? Maybe if your at a gay gym or something, but no 250pds muslce head is going to finish his shoulder press and then walk up to a wall, place his hands down and lean his feet against the wall and start doing handstand push ups?!! And if I see andone doing that at my gym I'm going to threw a 45 plate at your nuts. Or just walk right over and piss on your face, which ever comes first.
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I can't believe nobody has mentioned deadlift. I know it sounds funny and to those who have never pushed their balls to the floor doing them I can understand. When I started deadlifting, all of my upper body strength went through the roof along with extra back mass! I deadlift every monday and I never seen a line waiting to jump in like the good ole' bench! Just my .02 worth ;D
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I use dips to fill out my lower chest.
There isn't a chest day that I don't do dips.
handstands?? Maybe if your at a gay gym or something, but no 250pds muslce head is going to finish his shoulder press and then walk up to a wall, place his hands down and lean his feet against the wall and start doing handstand push ups?!! And if I see andone doing that at my gym I'm going to threw a 45 plate at your nuts. Or just walk right over and piss on your face, which ever comes first.
Your name is very appropriate. r u a troll or just very stupid? It's hard to believe that it's the latter because most stupid people don't know themselves well enough to pick a handle like "ignorance"
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Barbell Front Squats! Zercher Squats! High Pulls , Cleans , PullOvers , Dips , Chins , Standing Presses , Log Clean & Press , OverHead Barbell Squats
Heck , I'm going to make a new routine out of these!!!
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I think pull ups are under rated.Too many people just want to do the pull downs.They are Not the same. I could only do a few at first because I had never done them enough to be strong enough to do big sets .I would just do two or three. stretch and rest a minute or two...do two more..rest.. two more..and so on until I couldn't do any.After awhile I worked my way up to 10-12 per set ,and eventually started to add a little weight to a belt.. I think many people are intimidated to try some harder exercises like chins and cleans and what not..because they are HARD TO DO, and they are more concerned with what others think of them and how WEAK they are, so they stick to the excercises they are best at( like flat bb bench presses)I am quite sure there were smart asses laughing at me and joking behind my back while I was struggling to do 2 or 3 pull ups...but I didn't care..and those guys don't say shit now....they are too busy doing lat pulls with half their body weight...which is how I warm up before I do chins.
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GTbro1: Perfect responce, great post! People do think about their ego's and how their going to be looked at by other people. Lots of them are indeed too intimidated to try anything that does not conform to what is the PC way to train according to those T&A muscle (?) magazines and those "experts" at any gym. No wonder most of them make slow progress or no progress of any kind after years of training. Those "hard" exercise are hard at the beginning, but isn't that the whole point of wanting to get bigger and stronger? Make increasing demands on the body so it will adapt and respond with muscle growth. And pay attention to the Big Boy exercises like chins, dips, DL's, squats, etc. for serious and faster results for time put in at working out. Good Luck.
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Chins are widely used by BBs, so under-rated, no. Maybe amongst beginners or casual trainers who don't read this board, but it's not as simple as dismissing those who prefer pulldowns.
-Ego is only one factor; for many others, chins are gruelling. The likelihood of progressing on something that is detested is low. Depends on the outlook of the user.
-Someone doing only 2 reps, or women with lesser upper body strength doing 1/2 rep sets will often find 8 reps on a pulldown preferable and more effective.
-Pulldowns using serious weight close to bodyweight, and proper form are comparable to chins. Most people don't use enough weight and so don't maximize benefits. The same effective sequence of reps, rest, more reps, rest, etc. works on any exercise using heavy resistance, including heavy pulldowns. The two are very similar, when serious weight is used.
-Pulldowns can be done using many more angles than chins.
-Design dependant. Some lat machines have a great feel.
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Pumpster: Everything you said is true...I guess it depends on the person...for ME...it is very hard to use a lat pull machine and get the same feel.The urge to cheat is difficult to resist, I find myself get'n a better arm workout than a back workout...but that is just me.I personally get great satisfaction from grueling exercises.Not while I am doing them...but after.Kind of like squats. I hate squats...I often puke immediately afterward...but man after the workout is completely over, and my heart rate is calmed down a bit.What a feeling.
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Ya, the biggest difference between the two IMO is that it's harder to cut corners with chins, rather than that the exercise is inherently any better. Eesy to cheat, use poor form and avoid higher resistance on pulldowns.
I've learned from my own exerience how vital form is on lat work in particular, a HUGE difference on lat isolation on both pulldowns & chins. I find the best ways to hit the lats more effectively are:
-Never lean back, it's that kind of cheating that ruins the lat isolation. Your location in front of the machine makes a difference on cheating-on some machines it's easier to avoid cheating by sitting facing away from the machine. Kneeling down in front also makes for a more rigid up and down motion. Instead of leaning back, eke out extra rest-pause reps.
-The method described earlier of one longer protraced set involving numerous rest-pause reps is highly effective for any muscle. Go to failure, rest a few seconds, do more reps, rest again, repeat cycle, until a rep goal of say 20 reps within the one set is achieved. Outstanding intensity.
-There should be minimal arm flexion-the main motion with either pulldowns or chins is the hands following an arcing motion that ends up at the lower chest/nipples. BIG difference in effect..
-Hands act more like hooks, with thumbs held back rather than wrapped around the bar.
As with chins, the bar's brought in an arc with minimal arm flexion, to the lower chest/nipples.
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Lifing is a individual effort. Self discipline to achieve a long range goal is the prime factor. Doing the nasty stuff like squats, DL's, chins, dip's, etc, is not embraced by most trainee's. These movements are too hard and demanding at first and can induce a sense of a fear of failure when they can only max out at 1 or 2 hard reps in the chin or dip at first. One's confidence will soon fade. That's when the self discipline element should take over and to plan a program where the strenght of doing chin's (or wharever difficult compound exercise) is increased. Rejecting a great result giving movement(s) for something not quite as hard will usually be a mistake. Boosting the ego (the self) with the gaining of better preformence, on the Big Boy exercises, will be a reward in it's self. Not to mention the increase in muscle size.
The lat machine pull down can be a very good movement but is not the same as the chin, though it may look like it. That theory about a body motion in free space (chins & dips for example) can be sited. I discovered one arm lat pulldowns (when the lat machine would only hold 280lbs max...even with extra plates hooked on) and found it to be an excellent exercise years ago and much prefered over the two handed variety. If you want the body to stay somewhat in a 180degree line than you might try behind the neck chins but to me leaning back is part of the lat machine action for positive results.
For the lat's to be truly worked, the stress/workload should be on the elbows so the arms (bicep/forearms and the gripping strength) is taken out of the movement. The arm's by far are the weakest link to using the full potentional of the powerful back/lat muscles. Like the original Nautilus (Art Jones) pullover machine was. There are arm/elbow straps that one can use when doing cable rows/pulldowns so the stress is mostly on the elbows. There are also gripping straps of many kinds that reduce the need to actually grip the bar/handles when working the back. Good Luck.
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I always use a thumbless grip on chins...I don't know why but for me it is a huge differance .I think "elbows back and down" when I pull..I try to not think about my hands or arms.This works for me.I concentrate on moving my scapula not my arms. I also grab and pull on a pole between sets to stretch the lats...and even a couple lat spreads,for me it just helps with the mind muscle conection.
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never seen ronnie coleman do dips though.
Machine dips in cost of redemption
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Machine dips are more like bench dips, different and better than standard dips, for triceps.
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Upper Body- Dead Hang Clean and Press
Lower Body- 1 Legged Leg Press
Whole Body- Clean and Press from the Floor