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Title: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Roger Bacon on May 19, 2014, 12:25:47 PM
Can we go there?

Political Correctness Makes Race and Genetics Taboo in the West, Which is Why China is Winning

by Milo Yiannopoulos 19 May 2014, 2:30 AM PDT 40 post a comment

Most scientists will tell you that race has no biological basis—it is, in academic-speak, a “social construct.” But a new book by distinguished journalist Nicholas Wade challenges that assumption, concluding that race is real and human social behaviour is subject to natural selection just like everything else.

As the New York Review of Books put it, in its coverage of Wade’s A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History, there is now a “statistical sense” in which races are real. Scientists can tell, based on genetic variance, which continent a DNA sample comes from. That might not sound revolutionary to you, but it’s only recently that we’ve had the computer processing power to do it.

Wade doesn’t shy away from the disquieting implications of his theories: our genes, he says, could explain why some countries are wealthy while others languish in penury. In fact, the more we discover about ourselves from genomics, the more it becomes apparent that science and ideology are on a collision course.

read more: http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/19/science-and-racism-book
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 19, 2014, 12:34:06 PM
Im reading the book now.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: headhuntersix on May 19, 2014, 12:38:31 PM
Why is this a hard concept...oh I guess because if you live your life based on hurt feelings and obtaining an aggrieved standing it is.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: syntaxmachine on May 19, 2014, 01:09:07 PM
Politically correct persons' hope that their labeling of race as a social construct will block any inferences made on the basis of race is unsound: chairs are social constructs -- not belonging to any science as a theoretical posit and apparently existing merely as somewhat arbitrarily gerrymandered concatenations of atoms -- yet we can still infer that being hit over the head with one will hurt.

So too with race: there aren't purely biological necessary and sufficient conditions for belonging to the class 'African American,' but we can still infer and generalize on the basis of the somewhat arbitrary set of properties that we gerrymander into our social construct, e.g., we can infer about persons born in the US with significant genetic lineage leading back to Africa with albedos between x and y that they often evince above average fried chicken loving behavior, or that they evince higher rates of diabetes.

Fitting Mr Wade's claims into the above construal of social constructs, he is simply saying that the genetic portions of our social constructs of race allow us to make inferences and generalizations about the objects denoted by such concepts, a perfectly reasonable claim. And a perfectly uninteresting one.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Roger Bacon on May 19, 2014, 01:18:29 PM
Politically correct persons' hope that their labeling of race as a social construct will block any inferences made on the basis of race is unsound: chairs are social constructs -- not belonging to any science as a theoretical posit and apparently existing merely as somewhat arbitrarily gerrymandered concatenations of atoms -- yet we can still infer that being hit over the head with one will hurt.

So too with race: there aren't purely biological necessary and sufficient conditions for belonging to the class 'African American,' but we can still infer and generalize on the basis of the somewhat arbitrary set of properties that we gerrymander into our social construct, e.g., we can infer about persons born in the US with significant genetic lineage leading back to Africa with albedos between x and y that they evince above average fried chicken loving behavior.


LOL'd hard at how you wrapped up that scholarly post!!
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 19, 2014, 03:00:14 PM
Aside from the fact that race-based statistics are unreliable given the mixture of ethnicities across the country, what is the point?  Are we going to develop policy based on race?  Are you going to form judgments about an entire class of people? 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Roger Bacon on May 19, 2014, 07:02:39 PM
Aside from the fact that race-based statistics are unreliable given the mixture of ethnicities across the country, what is the point?  Are we going to develop policy based on race?  Are you going to form judgments about an entire class of people?  

Immigration policy I hope, especially in European countries that haven't been largely affected by third world peoples.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 12:43:21 AM
Aside from the fact that race-based statistics are unreliable given the mixture of ethnicities across the country, what is the point?  Are we going to develop policy based on race?  Are you going to form judgments about an entire class of people? 


Race based statistics are reliable and consistent.    We already have policies based on race.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 01:09:24 PM

Race based statistics are reliable and consistent.    We already have policies based on race.

Really?  What race is the president? 

We have lots of policies that are unreliable and wrongheaded. 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 01:18:17 PM
Immigration policy I hope, especially in European countries that haven't been largely affected by third world peoples.

How exactly would that work?  Select an entire race and preclude them from entering the country and/or becoming citizens? 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 01:22:33 PM
Really?  What race is the president? 

We have lots of policies that are unreliable and wrongheaded. 

The book actually addresses mixed race individuals.  Race isnt as static now that populations are mingling but that doesn't mean the stats are wrong and useless.   
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 01:23:17 PM
How exactly would that work?  Select an entire race and preclude them from entering the country and/or becoming citizens? 

I dont see a problem with that being the case in Europe.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 01:27:32 PM
The book actually addresses mixed race individuals.  Race isnt as static now that populations are mingling but that doesn't mean the stats are wrong and useless.   

What does it say about mixed race individuals?  And what race is the president? 

Race has never really been static.  At least not in modern history. 

I live in the most diverse state in the country.  The average person walking down the street here is probably a mix of at least two or more ethnicities.  And although most states are not like mine, there are people who are "chop suey" all over the country.   
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 01:47:22 PM
What does it say about mixed race individuals?  And what race is the president? 

Race has never really been static.  At least not in modern history. 

I live in the most diverse state in the country.  The average person walking down the street here is probably a mix of at least two or more ethnicities.  And although most states are not like mine, there are people who are "chop suey" all over the country.   

He would be just that, mixed race.  Race is just a population group that share a genetic history and traits.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 01:50:42 PM
I dont see a problem with that being the case in Europe.

What do they do in Europe? 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 01:53:58 PM
He would be just that, mixed race.  Race is just a population group that share a genetic history and traits.

What genetic traits does the president have and which ones are more dominant than others?  (More of a rhetorical question.) 

And what happens with someone like Tiger Woods, who has a mix of about four different ethnicities? 

What does this book you're referencing say about race-based shared genetic history and traits? 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 02:00:05 PM
What genetic traits does the president have and which ones are more dominant than others?  (More of a rhetorical question.) 

And what happens with someone like Tiger Woods, who has a mix of about four different ethnicities? 

What does this book you're referencing say about race-based shared genetic history and traits? 


You'd have to test his DNA to determine the composition of genes and how they operate.   Im not finished with the book yet.  A particular trait becomes prominent in a population when the adaption it possess proves useful or is acquired through sexual selection.   By sexual selection I mean its a sexually desirable trait so its selected for and passed on to offspring.   
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 02:06:47 PM

You'd have to test his DNA to determine the composition of genes and how they operate.   Im not finished with the book yet.  A particular trait becomes prominent in a population when the adaption it possess proves useful or is acquired through sexual selection.   By sexual selection I mean its a sexually desirable trait so its selected for and passed on to offspring.   

What kind of traits? 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 02:16:09 PM
What kind of traits? 

Depends on the population and what enviormental and/or social pressures they were adapting to.  The most obvious are physical traits we can see like skin color and hair texture.  Some you can't see such as the MAOA gene that has been linked to impulsively and aggression.  The rate of this gene and its two allele version vary in populations.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 02:27:11 PM
Depends on the population and what enviormental and/or social pressures they were adapting to.  The most obvious are physical traits we can see like skin color and hair texture.  Some you can't see such as the MAOA gene that has been linked to impulsively and aggression.  The rate of this gene and its two allele version vary in populations.

Thanks.  Not exactly earth shattering (skin color, etc.). 

So the book is saying the MAOA gene makes certain races more aggressive? 

Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 02:31:14 PM
Thanks.  Not exactly earth shattering (skin color, etc.). 

So the book is saying the MAOA gene makes certain races more aggressive? 



The book is pretty careful not to venture into supremacist territory or label particular groups as inferior.  Mainly it deconstructs the argument that race is a social construct.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 04:42:28 PM
The book is pretty careful not to venture into supremacist territory or label particular groups as inferior.  Mainly it deconstructs the argument that race is a social construct.

That's the whole point of studies like this, whether they acknowledge it or not. 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 05:41:48 PM
That's the whole point of studies like this, whether they acknowledge it or not. 

I dont agree.  The point as I see it is to is to understand and acknowledge the fundamental differences between people.   
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 05:45:54 PM
I dont agree.  The point as I see it is to is to understand and acknowledge the fundamental differences between people.   

And then what? 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: RRKore on May 20, 2014, 05:49:28 PM
I dont agree.  The point as I see it is to is to understand and acknowledge the fundamental differences between people.   

I think BB means that for some people the whole issue will be about justification for racial discrimination and he's right about that.

Personally, I think the subject is fascinating.  

I will say that tracking mental traits, even emotional ones, and linking them to certain alleles (sp?) seems like it'd be a whole lot more difficult than doing the same with physical traits, I think.

I mean, it's pretty obvious which parent red-headed Blake Griffin gets his jumping ability from but I'm not so sure about his pugnaciousness and general douchebaggery, lol.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: RRKore on May 20, 2014, 05:50:43 PM
And then what? 

Fer science, mang.  It's like climbing a mountain -- ya do it because it's there.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 05:52:07 PM
And then what? 

A lot of things.   If we understand the variations we can better adjust medical treatments and educational methods to address the biological differences.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 05:55:16 PM
I think BB means that for some people the whole issue will be about justification for racial discrimination and he's right about that.

Personally, I think the subject is fascinating.  

I will say that tracking mental traits, even emotional ones, and linking them to certain alleles (sp?) seems like it'd be a whole lot more difficult than doing the same with physical traits, I think.

I mean, it's pretty obvious which parent red-headed Blake Griffin gets his jumping ability from but I'm not so sure about his pugnaciousness and general douchebaggery, lol.

I understand what hes saying but I believe the fear of negative consequences is overstated.   Besides,  I prefer truth over the fantasy that we are all essentially the same.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: RRKore on May 20, 2014, 05:57:11 PM
I understand what hes saying but I believe the fear of negative consequences is overstated.   Besides,  I prefer truth over the fantasy that we are all essentially the same.

Me, too.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 06:10:27 PM
A lot of things.   If we understand the variations we can better adjust medical treatments and educational methods to address the biological differences.

Call me a cynic, but I doubt that is why people do this kind of research. 

And think about adjusting "educational methods."  How does that happen practically speaking?  Does is it justify giving preferential treatment to people who might be deemed inferior?  Do you put people in a special ed class based on race (or mixed race)? 

And what about the blood quantum?  Someone has to be responsible for that.  You cannot just go by how someone looks.  Who is going to do, or submit to, genetic testing to determine their precise ethnic background?  That's some straight up Gattaca stuff right there. 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 06:16:04 PM
Call me a cynic, but I doubt that is why people do this kind of research. 

And think about adjusting "educational methods."  How does that happen practically speaking?  Does is it justify giving preferential treatment to people who might be deemed inferior?  Do you put people in a special ed class based on race (or mixed race)? 

And what about the blood quantum?  Someone has to be responsible for that.  You cannot just go by how someone looks.  Who is going to do, or submit to, genetic testing to determine their precise ethnic background?  That's some straight up Gattaca stuff right there. 


Everyone should have the right of equal opportunity.  Their ability should be the only criteria by which they are judged.   Acknowledging the possibility that some people no matter how hard they try arent capable of achieving the same  academic success as others is a tough pill to swallow but its better than living the lie
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 06:18:10 PM
I think BB means that for some people the whole issue will be about justification for racial discrimination and he's right about that.

Personally, I think the subject is fascinating.  

I will say that tracking mental traits, even emotional ones, and linking them to certain alleles (sp?) seems like it'd be a whole lot more difficult than doing the same with physical traits, I think.

I mean, it's pretty obvious which parent red-headed Blake Griffin gets his jumping ability from but I'm not so sure about his pugnaciousness and general douchebaggery, lol.

It isn't just about trying to justify a wrongheaded superiority/inferiority argument, it's also that the number of mixed race people in the country make purported conclusions unreliable.  

Take the guy you just mentioned (Griffin).  His mom appears to be white and his dad appears to be black.  And what if Griffin marries a woman from American Samoa and produced babies.  How would you classify his kids?  (We have those kind of mixes all over the place here.)  
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 06:20:17 PM

Everyone should have the right of equal opportunity.  Their ability should be the only criteria by which they are judged.   Acknowledging the possibility that some people no matter how hard they try arent capable of achieving the same  academic success as others is a tough pill to swallow but its better than living the lie

That doesn't address the practical problems I raised.  Nobody is going to implement genetic testing for the purpose of determining that a particular ethnic group is intellectually inferior. 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 06:22:16 PM
That doesn't address the practical problems I raised.  Nobody is going to implement genetic testing for the purpose of determining that a particular ethnic group is intellectually inferior. 


We test for many different forms of impairment.   
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 06:25:25 PM

We test for many different forms of impairment.   

None of them race-based. 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 06:29:35 PM
None of them race-based. 

They are biological.   What else are we to do?  If the tendency for violence and intelligence are strongly linked to genetic factors, how can we solve the problem?    I dont know.  We can't ignore it.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 06:44:15 PM
They are biological.   What else are we to do?  If the tendency for violence and intelligence are strongly linked to genetic factors, how can we solve the problem?    I dont know.  We can't ignore it.

So on one hand you say this isn't about labeling groups as superior, inferior, etc., but then you talk about intelligence being linked to genetic factors, which in this context means ethnic genetic factors?  Sounds inconsistent. 

Even if we assume some races are more violent or dumber than others (I don't agree with that), there is no way to make policy on that basis, for all of the reasons I mentioned. 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 20, 2014, 06:50:48 PM
So on one hand you say this isn't about labeling groups as superior, inferior, etc., but then you talk about intelligence being linked to genetic factors, which in this context means ethnic genetic factors?  Sounds inconsistent. 

Even if we assume some races are more violent or dumber than others (I don't agree with that), there is no way to make policy on that basis, for all of the reasons I mentioned. 

Its not inconsistent.   If someone shows ability in a given field no test will impede their progress. What I'm saying is,  if such things as violence and intelligence are genetic, what is the solution?  Do we ignore the problem and hope for the best?   
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2014, 07:43:45 PM
Its not inconsistent.   If someone shows ability in a given field no test will impede their progress. What I'm saying is,  if such things as violence and intelligence are genetic, what is the solution?  Do we ignore the problem and hope for the best?   

To be more specific, you're saying what if such things as violence and intelligence are race-based.  

Even if we assume those things can be determined (which I doubt), what we cannot do is develop public policy on that basis.  

If someone commits an act of violence, they should be punished.  If someone is unable to succeed academically, then they need to find another route for success.  
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: RRKore on May 20, 2014, 08:22:19 PM
It isn't just about trying to justify a wrongheaded superiority/inferiority argument, it's also that the number of mixed race people in the country make purported conclusions unreliable.  

Take the guy you just mentioned (Griffin).  His mom appears to be white and his dad appears to be black.  And what if Griffin marries a woman from American Samoa and produced babies.  How would you classify his kids?  (We have those kind of mixes all over the place here.)  

I classify his kids as likely NFL players, lol.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Jack T. Cross on May 20, 2014, 09:04:00 PM
Everyone is an individual. No other way to look at it.
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: 24KT on May 21, 2014, 01:55:41 AM

Everyone should have the right of equal opportunity.  Their ability should be the only criteria by which they are judged.   Acknowledging the possibility that some people no matter how hard they try arent capable of achieving the same  academic success as others is a tough pill to swallow but its better than living the lie

(http://neverimitate.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/for-a-fair-selection-everybody-has-to-take-the-same-exam-please-climb-that-tree.jpg)
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Archer77 on May 21, 2014, 03:48:13 AM
To be more specific, you're saying what if such things as violence and intelligence are race-based.  

Even if we assume those things can be determined (which I doubt), what we cannot do is develop public policy on that basis.  

If someone commits an act of violence, they should be punished.  If someone is unable to succeed academically, then they need to find another route for success.  

Im saying if it is genetic, what do we do?  Ive already stated that ability should be the only judgment.   Why cant such things be determined?  After all, its a matter of biology. 
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: JOHN MATRIX on May 21, 2014, 09:14:00 AM
How exactly would that work?  Select an entire race and preclude them from entering the country and/or becoming citizens? 

Most countries are much more strict about this than western ones are. It is a perfectly natural and reasonable strategy to follow, and has pretty much been the norm for human history. Not 100% absolute exclusion based on race alone, but rather limits on certain groups/nationalities from coming in large numbers and changing/degrading the host nation/culture.

Its only considered racist if a white country does it ::)
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: JOHN MATRIX on May 21, 2014, 09:19:25 AM

Everyone should have the right of equal opportunity.  Their ability should be the only criteria by which they are judged.   Acknowledging the possibility that some people no matter how hard they try arent capable of achieving the same  academic success as others is a tough pill to swallow but its better than living the lie

This. Exactly. There is a reason why all the money and programs america has thrown at the 'academic results inequality' problem has completely failed to acheive the desired results...and deep down most people know that reason. Its the 800lb gorilla in the room that they all want to pretend isnt there
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 21, 2014, 11:13:59 AM
I classify his kids as likely NFL players, lol.

lol.  Well played.   :)
Title: Re: Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History
Post by: Dos Equis on May 21, 2014, 11:14:37 AM
Everyone is an individual. No other way to look at it.

Exactly.  Completely agree.