Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Howard on September 26, 2014, 11:24:40 AM
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I was a judge for many years on both the NPC and the AAU before that. Yup, I judged the actual Mr America when it was around.
The real "truth" about BB judging and contests is a lot more mundane then most would believe.
Based on my experience and observations here is my take on how it all works:
1. The real judging "secret" isn't any elaborate judging conspiracy to fix contests. It's the exact opposite. The process is lot less detailed then some want to believe and the judges do the best they can.
At any NPC contest, you have a sheet with the entrant numbers listed in numerical order for each class and division. Above that are the placements (1,2,3 ...) on the horizontal.
a) At ANY time during the judging you can place them , by putting an X for the place you wish them to be. There are no "points" for winning a pose or certain bodyparts, etc. The judges placements ( 1st, 2nd , 3rd...) ARE the only points and low score wins.
b) The overall winner for every division is picked during the night show finals. The class winner and all other placements are determined during the prejudging. The posing routines during the night show are not scored or even watched that closely by the judges.
The overall division winner is picked from the class winners and compared briefly during the night show. Each judge is given a small pc. of paper to write down who wins and hands it down to the head judge who counts up the votes from each judge. The final pose down is rarely , is ever scored ,as most judges have already turned in their pick by then . The overall pose down gives the head judge time to tally the votes and gets the crowd hyped, that's all it is.
c) Most of the actual judging is done within the first few minutes of appearing on stage. The comparisons help when it's close between places.
d) Being BIG, ripped, lean and darkly tanned is the first thing a judge notices when you walk on stage.
e) At most regional , state or local NPC shows, the biggest weakness is not being in ripped condition or dark enough under the lights.
You compete in your WEIGHT class, so size (usually) isn't the biggest problem. Being too fat and lacking cuts is!
2. The bikini division has intentionally vague standards. It's really all about sex appeal and getting a lot more girls to enter contests.
3. Figure is designed for a fit, lean girl who has lean legs with some upper body V taper and good arm/delt muscle tone.
A good figure girl must have lean thighs and no visible fat on the hammys with tight glutes.
4. MPD ( wearing board shorts) was developed to increase the number of paid entrants in NPC contests. They don't care about classic physiques or a natural look, etc. AGAIN< the real purpose of this division was to get guys who worked out but weren't juiced up freaks to enter a contest and PAY THE ENTRY FEES and npc dues.
5. Most local , state and regional contest promoters want to make $$ but do it mostly for the love of the sport.
The national and pro level is more about profit and numbers then the love of BB.
6. The supplement industry needs a place to market their crap and the bigger shows need sponsors.
(a) Most of the fitness models make : under $100 and may get a room for the show weekend paid by the vendor , for working the booth.
(b) Many supplement contracts pay with a monthly product credit. ONLY the biggest name pros get a salary for being "sponsored".
7. I never judged at the pro level , but suspect it's pretty similar to what I did. Most promoters don't care who wins and leave that to the judges.
What can happen is some guy or girl will compete and be talked about by those in/round the sport. The judges might take a better look at them but still NOT pick them to win if they look like shit. Every judge has some bias or thing they look for when picking the winner. Now, with all the extra divisions , most judges are too damn fatigued to judge all the bodybuilders with enough detail. That's the real problem.
9. Nobody judging or running the contest , knows or cares about most people who enter the event. Sure, they love the sport but in the end they want to make $$$. NOBODY is going to risk that on some lame conspiracy to deny you 3rd place in the Lt wt novice LOL. YOU are NOT that important .
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LOL, I'm not too surprised THIS post didn't get much action.
Far better to believe in some elaborate conspiracy via Jim Manion summoning the ghost of Ben Wieder LOL.
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I was a judge for many years on both the NPC and the AAU before that. Yup, I judged the actual Mr America when it was around.
The real "truth" about BB judging and contests is a lot more mundane then most would believe.
Based on my experience and observations here is my take on how it all works:
1. The real judging "secret" isn't any elaborate judging conspiracy to fix contests. It's the exact opposite. The process is lot less detailed then some want to believe and the judges do the best they can.
At any NPC contest, you have a sheet with the entrant numbers listed in numerical order for each class and division. Above that are the placements (1,2,3 ...) on the horizontal.
a) At ANY time during the judging you can place them , by putting an X for the place you wish them to be. There are no "points" for winning a pose or certain bodyparts, etc. The judges placements ( 1st, 2nd , 3rd...) ARE the only points and low score wins.
b) The overall winner for every division is picked during the night show finals. The class winner and all other placements are determined during the prejudging. The posing routines during the night show are not scored or even watched that closely by the judges.
The overall division winner is picked from the class winners and compared briefly during the night show. Each judge is given a small pc. of paper to write down who wins and hands it down to the head judge who counts up the votes from each judge. The final pose down is rarely , is ever scored ,as most judges have already turned in their pick by then . The overall pose down gives the head judge time to tally the votes and gets the crowd hyped, that's all it is.
c) Most of the actual judging is done within the first few minutes of appearing on stage. The comparisons help when it's close between places.
d) Being BIG, ripped, lean and darkly tanned is the first thing a judge notices when you walk on stage.
e) At most regional , state or local NPC shows, the biggest weakness is not being in ripped condition or dark enough under the lights.
You compete in your WEIGHT class, so size (usually) isn't the biggest problem. Being too fat and lacking cuts is!
2. The bikini division has intentionally vague standards. It's really all about sex appeal and getting a lot more girls to enter contests.
3. Figure is designed for a fit, lean girl who has lean legs with some upper body V taper and good arm/delt muscle tone.
A good figure girl must have lean thighs and no visible fat on the hammys with tight glutes.
4. MPD ( wearing board shorts) was developed to increase the number of paid entrants in NPC contests. They don't care about classic physiques or a natural look, etc. AGAIN< the real purpose of this division was to get guys who worked out but weren't juiced up freaks to enter a contest and PAY THE ENTRY FEES and npc dues.
5. Most local , state and regional contest promoters want to make $$ but do it mostly for the love of the sport.
The national and pro level is more about profit and numbers then the love of BB.
6. The supplement industry needs a place to market their crap and the bigger shows need sponsors.
(a) Most of the fitness models make : under $100 and may get a room for the show weekend paid by the vendor , for working the booth.
(b) Many supplement contracts pay with a monthly product credit. ONLY the biggest name pros get a salary for being "sponsored".
7. I never judged at the pro level , but suspect it's pretty similar to what I did. Most promoters don't care who wins and leave that to the judges.
What can happen is some guy or girl will compete and be talked about by those in/round the sport. The judges might take a better look at them but still NOT pick them to win if they look like shit. Every judge has some bias or thing they look for when picking the winner. Now, with all the extra divisions , most judges are too damn fatigued to judge all the bodybuilders with enough detail. That's the real problem.
9. Nobody judging or running the contest , knows or cares about most people who enter the event. Sure, they love the sport but in the end they want to make $$$. NOBODY is going to risk that on some lame conspiracy to deny you 3rd place in the Lt wt novice LOL. YOU are NOT that important .
Its a conspiracy when your friends with one of the judges who puts you down for first place when you deserve 6th pace. We have seen this countless times where the person who won should not have won. In that sense, it is a "conspiracy."
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Its a conspiracy when your friends with one of the judges who puts you down for first place when you deserve 6th pace. We have seen this countless times where the person who won should not have won. In that sense, it is a "conspiracy."
I was on over 100 judging panels and NEVER saw this form of blatant "fixing".
Could you give the names and show in question?
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I was on over 100 judging panels and NEVER saw this form of blatant "fixing".
Could you give the names and show in question?
Big Ramy destroying Jay, yet Jay finished ahead of him
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TuW616XC68Q/hqdefault.jpg)
Nasser clearly destroying Dorian, yet Dorian winning.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GHNZOjHoi7g/hqdefault.jpg)
Its CLEAR that Jay was given a gift there. Ramy absolutely destroys him. It is not even debatable. Why did Jay win? Why was he given a "gift" that day?
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C'mon, that's just the judges opinion and to us looking at the pics, it looks wrong. Pics don't always look exactly like live posing.
It's opinion and I suspect based a bit on "reputation" at the pro level. It's far from an exact science with no oversight or review panel.
BUT, the judges don't get together in the back room and fix the show in advance.
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C'mon, that's just the judges opinion and to us looking at the pics, it looks wrong. Pics don't always look exactly like live posing.
It's opinion and I suspect based a bit on "reputation" at the pro level. It's far from an exact science with no oversight or review panel.
BUT, the judges don't get together in the back room and fix the show in advance.
LMAO!! You're fucking delusional. Jay's biceps and chest is totally regressing in that shot. It is clear Ramy is the winner. He was given a gift that day.
No, that is not the judges opinions. That is the judges placing Jay ahead of Ramy, when Ramy should have clearly won.
Look at Ramy's legs. In fact, look at Ramys physique compares to Jay. Not even comparable.
(http://nattyornot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/big-ramy.jpg)
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I can not speak for the NPC judging criteria from a judges viewpoint...but I can somewhat for the AAU. I was a National Judge but never did the America or USA series. I competed in those shows and have my suspicions. I have competed in the NPC Masters Nationals and do have a competitor's 'the fix is in' viewpoint.
I know that there were little cabals of AAU judges that pooled their feelings prior to handing in their cards. I overheard them. As a competitor at a Mr. A in Philly I was standing center stage in my class and the head judge, a female, put her arms around two of her fellow judges and I clearly overheard..."The guy in red is from California, got it?" I took a third to two men from Philly and who looked like skinny fitness instructors. Oh, all the judges were from Philly or Trenton and one from Texas.
At a Mr. California show in Fresno I got 5 firsts and 4 fifths and took 2nd. 4 fifths? That killed my points. Oh yeah they (those 4 judges) were all from the winners gym. The promoter was later banned by the AAU from ever promoting again after I had the cards reviewed. Funny thing is that the winner and I became great friends. He went on to win his class at the NPC Masters Nationals. Two weeks later we were in Atlantic City at an AAU Mr. USA. He was awesome....best shape of his life. Me OK...about the same as in Fresno. I took 5th and he was out of the finals. WTF? I cornered an AAU big shot I knew, a devout Christian and always told the truth...he told me that I had that 'steroid look' and my buddy really 'was over the top'. "Not what we are looking for tonight".
I competed in Pitt at a NPC Masters National that was in part sponsored by XYZ tanning product. They also had a room in the Sheraton where they did spray-on. The entry rules said any other spray-on in or near the venue will automatically ban you. I use Dream Tan first coat then several
Jan Tanna on top. All done by hand in my room. That cuts down the little gold flecks seen in DT and hated by many. While I was warming up there was a guy back stage giving everyone a close up...up and down. A friend competitor whispered to me..."you're fucked, that gut is from ZYZ and is running back and forth to the judges table. He is a spy. He can see the DT flecks when he is up close to you." I was the only competitor not to be called up for comparisons.
I hung up my posing trunks for good.
OK that's it for now....
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I posted this before in another thread, thats what I can remember so far.
There are decisions which are not reasonable for a lot of people.
Mr.O 1982 Casey Viator was for me the winner, instead they placed him behind Dickerson and Zane
Mr.O 1980 Danny Padilla placed 10th, only overlooked ?
Mr.O 1981 Padilla placed 4th, he looked better than the winner Franco Columbu
Mr.O 1979 Mentzer vs. Zane
Mr.O 1980 Arnold the winner, one of the most controversial and debated competitions in bodybuilding history
Mr.O 1985 Beckles second at twice Haney’s age, he should have won
Mr.O 2002 Gunter Schlierkamp 5th must be a joke
Just a few, cant remember all of them and I dont say my opinion is the measure of all things.
Sorry, I can not come up with own experiences. Maybe other guys can and thats of course more interesting than warming up old discussions.
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Bodybuilding is a crap shoot. It's subjective. It's biased. It's political. It's unfair. In other words, it's like our schools, our government, our churches, our families & our terrorist organizations.
Anyone competing against anything other than their own personal best probably shouldn't be onstage. The competitor doesn't know better than the judges how to score or pick a winner. The judges don't know & (based on this thread) care what the competitor is going through, or who the competitor is. Most known competitors have already been slotted before they step onstage anyway.
I have heard stories about bias in judging. I don't think they're all true, but some probably are. I'll repeat one, leaving names out. In the early 2000s, a top competitor was attempting to go pro through a large national association. He said a friend of his who was sitting near the judges' table heard the head of the association tell the judges not to put him in the top five. He never competed again in that association. His biceps had become freaky due to site injections & he believed he was blackballed for using synthol, which he wasn't doing.
Let me tell you something I witnessed personally that suggests a competitor's friends can be unfair. At a national show, again in the early 2000s, I saw someone who was clearly in very good shape onstage. No question he deserved to be top five, & he was. However, there was no obvious winner & he got 3rd. Meanwhile, the person who took 1st ended up winning the overall show & going pro. (The person who went pro didn't really look pro caliber, & he never competed as a pro.) When the 3rd place guy came out from the back with his gym bag he sat right in front of me. The show was still going on. His friends told him "you got screwed!" & "you should go over to the judges' table right now!" The poor guy just grabbed his gym bag & left the room. I felt bad for him. He never did another national show as far as I know.
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I recently spent a lazy day reading the various threads at Misc regarding speculation, innuendo, rumor and factual information about g4p / gay for pay in the bodybuilding circuit, and the derogatorily so-called “schmoes” who willingly pay for it all.
I have been gladly paying for muscle worship from top pros and amateur bodybuilders all over the world for my over two decades. So I suppose that makes me a fairly prominent and active “schmoe”. I first heard the term “schmoe” used by a bodybuilder back in 1992 to describe another client who was more well-known, and I was then told that there are schmoes for both male and female bodybuilders; before that, I didn’t know there was actually such an inside term used by some bodybuilders to describe in general what I was starting to get into. “Clients”, “supporters” and in high-finance cases, “sponsor” were the terms I was more familiar with, and the ones I used and to continue to use in my dealings with bodybuilders.
I have always maintained discretion and privacy in my dealings, as I have worked hard in my chosen professional field and become very successful and known with my industry circles; therefore, just as I am not too particularly fond of staining my professional or social reputation, I treat all bodybuilders, athletes and models as if they deserve a similar need for discretion.
I have noticed there’s some truth but many false assumptions and misconceptions about what I know to be both sides of g4p bodybuilding – the bodybuilder and the sponsor, client or schmoe.
So I am starting this thread so that Miscers can ask me – a real life, experienced sponsor / client / schmoe -- ANYTHING. I will try to answer all questions as much as I can, without going past my own personal limits (what those are, of course, are for me to decide).
As I continue to hire / sponsor bodybuilders, pro, amateur and aspiring, and I want to maintain their trust, please note that I am not here on an outing exhibition. That does not necessarily preclude me from naming names when I feel it is relatively harmless, important or necessary.
That all being said, I will give you some more background on me:
Sorry to disappoint some of your comedic intentions, but I’m not some old, fat, out-of-shape queeny guy (although the reality of that stereotype very much exists in the client / sponsor field). I’m in my early 40s, fit and exercise regularly, but I have always, always admired muscle. As mentioned before, I worked very hard and aggressively in my chosen career field starting at an early age working on Wall Street, and did very well for myself. This left me little time to do much else, but I have managed to find time for some renting and sponsoring bodybuilders and muscle escorts, which I still do to this day.
I am still based in the New York City metro area for business purposes, but own a few other properties in warmer clients; I have taken appointments with bodybuilders all over, and have quite often invited them to visit me or travel with me.
Although I do not now, I spent a sizable amount of time in committed relationships with women, mostly due to societal, family and business pressures. This probably only enhanced my need to hire. After a while, I disclosed my penchant for bodybuilders to one lady friend, who for a brief period until our breakup, became very supportive and helpful in my search for bodybuilders. Now, however, my relationships are same-sex only, and I feel there is no need for me for a front. Yet, I still choose to be a somewhat private person.
Although I prefer to maintain a comfortable distance from many other clients – some of which would probably better physically fall into the Misc perceived idea of a “schmoe” – I am socially friendly with a number of others. In a lot of cases, there is a network of shared information, and some are more talkative, braggadocios or loose-lipped than others, while others may share my code of discretion. In addition, particularly in my earlier years; this for me was the late 80s to early 90s. I was fortunate enough to meet older bodybuilding sponsors who were in and out of the bodybuilding circuit or the gay social networking scene. During this time, I also met some older bodybuilders, who once comfortable with me and felt I was legit, gave me further insight into the subculture and told stories.
I have sponsored competitive bodybuilders over the years, from pros to top and promising amateurs. I have also been a client for bodybuilder escorts and rentboys, hiring regulars and hiring one-offs. I am well-traveled and have dealt with bodybuilders all over the planet, in quite a few countries besides the USA. This business relationship happens everywhere, although the approach and expectations vary depending on the culture of the land.
I have done a lot of clever and interesting things over the years to meet potential bodybuilders to sponsor or hire. Sometimes it has been as simple as taking candy from a baby; other times, it was much more detailed, elaborate and long-term.
We all have our “types” / preferences. I tend to go for “the bigger, the better” – meaning superheavies, heavies and sometimes light heavies. Color has never really been a big issue for me, and I have dealt with many bodybuilders of all races, all over the globe. Actually, I probably tend to gravitate to bodybuilders with more color in them. So, in the States at least, that sets me a little apart from other, older schmoes, who tend to prefer to deal with only white guys.
Masculinity is also a huge turn-on to me, and I find that to be a must-have, not just a nice-to-have, when I am sponsoring or hiring. However, over the years, I can without a doubt attest that the manliness of the bodybuilder may have little to do with what is done with the individual client behind closed doors (also, I have found that mileage may vary – often, what one bodybuilder may do with me, they may do something totally different with another “schmoe”, depending on their level of comfort, business arrangement or level of physical attraction / interest in the client. I have had everything from private posing sessions with no or little contact to muscle worship to full-on safe sexual intercourse. It depends on who it is, the arrangement, and the mood I am in.
I do feel that many of the posters here are very naïve. I am attributing that to their lack of travel and worldliness. The g4p relationship happens all over the world, and in varying forms, with men of all shapes and sizes. Bodybuilders are not exempt at all from this practice. Money is often the most enticing factor, but there can be others as well. Also, the concept of “gay” is very much a Western world construct, but that does not mean that homosexual activity between men is not common. On the contrary, it is quite a common practice everywhere; the expression of it, however, is very different here in the USA than it may be elsewhere. Therefore, there are a lot of men everywhere whose sexual behavior is fluid, who would not consider themselves “gay” at all. In many parts of the world, that label is only for out of the closet feminine men, 100% bottoms and/or drag queens and trannies; meanwhile, others are free to discreetly enjoy or get paid for homosex and go back to their straight lives without any interruption. Yes, this applies to bodybuilders as well.
Even in gay circles, my continued attraction and interest in bodybuilders and men with big freaky muscle is probably now, more than ever, considered unusual and odd. The huge look that I love so much was probably most popular in the 90s to early 2000s. However, increasingly much to my disappointment, gay men (and straight women) are more and more attracted to the lean, sinewy types – which is making the sport and culture of bodybuilding even more of a subculture. My friends / colleagues like “model types” that I call “twinks”, and some of them will do what I do for bodybuilders, and yes, there is a circuit for that as well – although I don’t think the clients are derogatorily called “schmoes” (though I do hear “sponsors” as well). I say this to let some of you know that the bodybuilding hardcore fan base is becoming increasingly limited. However, those of us sponsors, clients and “schmoes” who have this interest or fetish in bodybuilding are here to stay, and in most cases, bring major support to the sport.
Think of g4p in bodybuilding sort of like the blatantly obviously gay uncle that was often cast on old TV shows such as “Bewitched” – everyone knew he existed and knew his deal, but no one really talked about it, but still everyone liked him and didn’t ask any questions because he was fun at parties and gatherings, he kept the lights on, worked the church organ, and/or often brought everyone gifts and helped with the financial bottom line.
So, Miscers, with that intro, now it’s your turn….
As a real life bodybuilding sponsor, client, “schmoe”, ASK ME ANYTHING about g4p / gay for pay / sponsoring / schmoeing in men’s bodybuilding. I’ll try to answer as comfortably as I can.
I accept private messages and emails as well, if you would rather not ask me in the public forum.
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I recently spent a lazy day reading the various threads at Misc regarding speculation, innuendo, rumor and factual information about g4p / gay for pay in the bodybuilding circuit, and the derogatorily so-called “schmoes” who willingly pay for it all.
I have been gladly paying for muscle worship from top pros and amateur bodybuilders all over the world for my over two decades. So I suppose that makes me a fairly prominent and active “schmoe”. I first heard the term “schmoe” used by a bodybuilder back in 1992 to describe another client who was more well-known, and I was then told that there are schmoes for both male and female bodybuilders; before that, I didn’t know there was actually such an inside term used by some bodybuilders to describe in general what I was starting to get into. “Clients”, “supporters” and in high-finance cases, “sponsor” were the terms I was more familiar with, and the ones I used and to continue to use in my dealings with bodybuilders.
I have always maintained discretion and privacy in my dealings, as I have worked hard in my chosen professional field and become very successful and known with my industry circles; therefore, just as I am not too particularly fond of staining my professional or social reputation, I treat all bodybuilders, athletes and models as if they deserve a similar need for discretion.
I have noticed there’s some truth but many false assumptions and misconceptions about what I know to be both sides of g4p bodybuilding – the bodybuilder and the sponsor, client or schmoe.
So I am starting this thread so that Miscers can ask me – a real life, experienced sponsor / client / schmoe -- ANYTHING. I will try to answer all questions as much as I can, without going past my own personal limits (what those are, of course, are for me to decide).
As I continue to hire / sponsor bodybuilders, pro, amateur and aspiring, and I want to maintain their trust, please note that I am not here on an outing exhibition. That does not necessarily preclude me from naming names when I feel it is relatively harmless, important or necessary.
That all being said, I will give you some more background on me:
Sorry to disappoint some of your comedic intentions, but I’m not some old, fat, out-of-shape queeny guy (although the reality of that stereotype very much exists in the client / sponsor field). I’m in my early 40s, fit and exercise regularly, but I have always, always admired muscle. As mentioned before, I worked very hard and aggressively in my chosen career field starting at an early age working on Wall Street, and did very well for myself. This left me little time to do much else, but I have managed to find time for some renting and sponsoring bodybuilders and muscle escorts, which I still do to this day.
I am still based in the New York City metro area for business purposes, but own a few other properties in warmer clients; I have taken appointments with bodybuilders all over, and have quite often invited them to visit me or travel with me.
Although I do not now, I spent a sizable amount of time in committed relationships with women, mostly due to societal, family and business pressures. This probably only enhanced my need to hire. After a while, I disclosed my penchant for bodybuilders to one lady friend, who for a brief period until our breakup, became very supportive and helpful in my search for bodybuilders. Now, however, my relationships are same-sex only, and I feel there is no need for me for a front. Yet, I still choose to be a somewhat private person.
Although I prefer to maintain a comfortable distance from many other clients – some of which would probably better physically fall into the Misc perceived idea of a “schmoe” – I am socially friendly with a number of others. In a lot of cases, there is a network of shared information, and some are more talkative, braggadocios or loose-lipped than others, while others may share my code of discretion. In addition, particularly in my earlier years; this for me was the late 80s to early 90s. I was fortunate enough to meet older bodybuilding sponsors who were in and out of the bodybuilding circuit or the gay social networking scene. During this time, I also met some older bodybuilders, who once comfortable with me and felt I was legit, gave me further insight into the subculture and told stories.
I have sponsored competitive bodybuilders over the years, from pros to top and promising amateurs. I have also been a client for bodybuilder escorts and rentboys, hiring regulars and hiring one-offs. I am well-traveled and have dealt with bodybuilders all over the planet, in quite a few countries besides the USA. This business relationship happens everywhere, although the approach and expectations vary depending on the culture of the land.
I have done a lot of clever and interesting things over the years to meet potential bodybuilders to sponsor or hire. Sometimes it has been as simple as taking candy from a baby; other times, it was much more detailed, elaborate and long-term.
We all have our “types” / preferences. I tend to go for “the bigger, the better” – meaning superheavies, heavies and sometimes light heavies. Color has never really been a big issue for me, and I have dealt with many bodybuilders of all races, all over the globe. Actually, I probably tend to gravitate to bodybuilders with more color in them. So, in the States at least, that sets me a little apart from other, older schmoes, who tend to prefer to deal with only white guys.
Masculinity is also a huge turn-on to me, and I find that to be a must-have, not just a nice-to-have, when I am sponsoring or hiring. However, over the years, I can without a doubt attest that the manliness of the bodybuilder may have little to do with what is done with the individual client behind closed doors (also, I have found that mileage may vary – often, what one bodybuilder may do with me, they may do something totally different with another “schmoe”, depending on their level of comfort, business arrangement or level of physical attraction / interest in the client. I have had everything from private posing sessions with no or little contact to muscle worship to full-on safe sexual intercourse. It depends on who it is, the arrangement, and the mood I am in.
I do feel that many of the posters here are very naïve. I am attributing that to their lack of travel and worldliness. The g4p relationship happens all over the world, and in varying forms, with men of all shapes and sizes. Bodybuilders are not exempt at all from this practice. Money is often the most enticing factor, but there can be others as well. Also, the concept of “gay” is very much a Western world construct, but that does not mean that homosexual activity between men is not common. On the contrary, it is quite a common practice everywhere; the expression of it, however, is very different here in the USA than it may be elsewhere. Therefore, there are a lot of men everywhere whose sexual behavior is fluid, who would not consider themselves “gay” at all. In many parts of the world, that label is only for out of the closet feminine men, 100% bottoms and/or drag queens and trannies; meanwhile, others are free to discreetly enjoy or get paid for homosex and go back to their straight lives without any interruption. Yes, this applies to bodybuilders as well.
Even in gay circles, my continued attraction and interest in bodybuilders and men with big freaky muscle is probably now, more than ever, considered unusual and odd. The huge look that I love so much was probably most popular in the 90s to early 2000s. However, increasingly much to my disappointment, gay men (and straight women) are more and more attracted to the lean, sinewy types – which is making the sport and culture of bodybuilding even more of a subculture. My friends / colleagues like “model types” that I call “twinks”, and some of them will do what I do for bodybuilders, and yes, there is a circuit for that as well – although I don’t think the clients are derogatorily called “schmoes” (though I do hear “sponsors” as well). I say this to let some of you know that the bodybuilding hardcore fan base is becoming increasingly limited. However, those of us sponsors, clients and “schmoes” who have this interest or fetish in bodybuilding are here to stay, and in most cases, bring major support to the sport.
Think of g4p in bodybuilding sort of like the blatantly obviously gay uncle that was often cast on old TV shows such as “Bewitched” – everyone knew he existed and knew his deal, but no one really talked about it, but still everyone liked him and didn’t ask any questions because he was fun at parties and gatherings, he kept the lights on, worked the church organ, and/or often brought everyone gifts and helped with the financial bottom line.
So, Miscers, with that intro, now it’s your turn….
As a real life bodybuilding sponsor, client, “schmoe”, ASK ME ANYTHING about g4p / gay for pay / sponsoring / schmoeing in men’s bodybuilding. I’ll try to answer as comfortably as I can.
I accept private messages and emails as well, if you would rather not ask me in the public forum.
Is this something you found online or is it you posting?
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Is this something you found online or is it you posting?
it was post on bodybuilding.com
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and on getbig :D
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=430425.0
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it was post on bodybuilding.com
Then you should have quoted it, you could have been inundated with requests. :)
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I can not speak for the NPC judging criteria from a judges viewpoint...but I can somewhat for the AAU. I was a National Judge but never did the America or USA series. I competed in those shows and have my suspicions. I have competed in the NPC Masters Nationals and do have a competitor's 'the fix is in' viewpoint.
I know that there were little cabals of AAU judges that pooled their feelings prior to handing in their cards. I overheard them. As a competitor at a Mr. A in Philly I was standing center stage in my class and the head judge, a female, put her arms around two of her fellow judges and I clearly overheard..."The guy in red is from California, got it?" I took a third to two men from Philly and who looked like skinny fitness instructors. Oh, all the judges were from Philly or Trenton and one from Texas.
At a Mr. California show in Fresno I got 5 firsts and 4 fifths and took 2nd. 4 fifths? That killed my points. Oh yeah they (those 4 judges) were all from the winners gym. The promoter was later banned by the AAU from ever promoting again after I had the cards reviewed. Funny thing is that the winner and I became great friends. He went on to win his class at the NPC Masters Nationals. Two weeks later we were in Atlantic City at an AAU Mr. USA. He was awesome....best shape of his life. Me OK...about the same as in Fresno. I took 5th and he was out of the finals. WTF? I cornered an AAU big shot I knew, a devout Christian and always told the truth...he told me that I had that 'steroid look' and my buddy really 'was over the top'. "Not what we are looking for tonight".
I competed in Pitt at a NPC Masters National that was in part sponsored by XYZ tanning product. They also had a room in the Sheraton where they did spray-on. The entry rules said any other spray-on in or near the venue will automatically ban you. I use Dream Tan first coat then several
Jan Tanna on top. All done by hand in my room. That cuts down the little gold flecks seen in DT and hated by many. While I was warming up there was a guy back stage giving everyone a close up...up and down. A friend competitor whispered to me..."you're fucked, that gut is from ZYZ and is running back and forth to the judges table. He is a spy. He can see the DT flecks when he is up close to you." I was the only competitor not to be called up for comparisons.
I hung up my posing trunks for good.
OK that's it for now....
Good read and it may be somewhat true about being "blackballed" by using another brand of tanner?
Without oversight or review who knows? It's a lot more haphazard then fair, objective science
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Bodybuilding is a crap shoot. It's subjective. It's biased. It's political. It's unfair. In other words, it's like our schools, our government, our churches, our families & our terrorist organizations.
Anyone competing against anything other than their own personal best probably shouldn't be onstage. The competitor doesn't know better than the judges how to score or pick a winner. The judges don't know & (based on this thread) care what the competitor is going through, or who the competitor is. Most known competitors have already been slotted before they step onstage anyway.
I have heard stories about bias in judging. I don't think they're all true, but some probably are. I'll repeat one, leaving names out. In the early 2000s, a top competitor was attempting to go pro through a large national association. He said a friend of his who was sitting near the judges' table heard the head of the association tell the judges not to put him in the top five. He never competed again in that association. His biceps had become freaky due to site injections & he believed he was blackballed for using synthol, which he wasn't doing.
Let me tell you something I witnessed personally that suggests a competitor's friends can be unfair. At a national show, again in the early 2000s, I saw someone who was clearly in very good shape onstage. No question he deserved to be top five, & he was. However, there was no obvious winner & he got 3rd. Meanwhile, the person who took 1st ended up winning the overall show & going pro. (The person who went pro didn't really look pro caliber, & he never competed as a pro.) When the 3rd place guy came out from the back with his gym bag he sat right in front of me. The show was still going on. His friends told him "you got screwed!" & "you should go over to the judges' table right now!" The poor guy just grabbed his gym bag & left the room. I felt bad for him. He never did another national show as far as I know.
Good post and again, it's hard to know what the real winning criteria is when things are disorganized and vague.
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I don't know many details about g4p other then it exists. The long schmoe post was an interesting read.
I do know that the fitness babes that work the expo booth don't make much $$$.
They get no more then 50-75 bucks and maybe a paid room at the event hotel.
Many of the supplement "sponsorships" are a monthly product credit ( $ 200-300 per month in pro powder).
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I don't know many details about g4p other then it exists. The long schmoe post was an interesting read.
I do know that the fitness babes that work the expo booth don't make much $$$.
They get no more then 50-75 bucks and maybe a paid room at the event hotel.
Many of the supplement "sponsorships" are a monthly product credit ( $ 200-300 per month in pro powder).
This was a robbery. Plain and simple. Its not even debatable. Jay is getting destroyed here. Blatant favoritism.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TuW616XC68Q/hqdefault.jpg)
(http://s21.postimg.org/vtv2oe8x3/wowd44.jpg)
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This was a robbery. Plain and simple. Its not even debatable. Jay is getting destroyed here. Blatant favoritism.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TuW616XC68Q/hqdefault.jpg)
(http://s21.postimg.org/vtv2oe8x3/wowd44.jpg)
Dont be stupid you cant judge a bodybuilding contest from a few pictures, which is why I will never post one.
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Dont be stupid you cant judge a bodybuilding contest from a few pictures.
Youre an idiot. This is the rare exception where it is quite clear who the winner is, even judging just by the pictures.
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Youre an idiot. This is the rare exception where it is quite clear who the winner is, even judging just by the pictures.
If you can take someone that's knows nothing about bodybuilding and ask them who wins in this pic. I promise you they will say ramy. It's that obvious
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Youre an idiot. This is the rare exception where it is quite clear who the winner is, even judging just by the pictures.
Not how it works , Ramy can beat Jay in a couple of poses and still lose. You have to know how contests are judged before you can just scream unfair. Pictures don't mean jack compared to reality either.
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If you can take someone that's knows nothing about bodybuilding and ask them who wins in this pic. I promise you they will say ramy. It's that obvious
exactly. It is SO obvious who the winner is here.
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That's a good read Howard, but what I'm missing here is the concept of conflicts of interest. Too often I see coaches/trainers, sponsors, gym owners, etc as judges. In fact, I can't remember a show where this wasn't the case.
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exactly. It is SO obvious who the winner is here.
And if a contest was judged on three poses maybe you would have something to work with.
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Not how it works , Ramy can beat Jay in a couple of poses and still lose. You have to know how contests are judged before you can just scream unfair. Pictures don't mean jack compared to reality either.
ND, I disagree. That is like putting Goodrum next to Ramy and saying "you cant tell from the pictures who the clear winner is." ::) ::)
This is one of those rare times where its a blowout. Ramy is clearly destroying jay. Ive looked at all the mandatories and ramy is destroying Jay. I just dont have my pics saved on my harddrive like you to post. ;D ;D ;) ;) and for some reason its giving me an error when I try to post certain pics.
(http://nattyornot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/big-ramy.jpg)
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ND, I disagree. That is like putting Goodrum next to Ramy and saying "you cant tell from the pictures who the clear winner is." ::) ::)
This is one of those rare times where its a blowout. Ramy is clearly destroying jay. Ive looked at all the mandatories and ramy is destroying Jay. I just dont have my pics saved on my harddrive like you to post. ;D ;D ;) ;) and for some reason its giving me an error when I try to post certain pics.
(http://nattyornot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/big-ramy.jpg)
I agree in some poses Ramy is clearly beating Jay but again , not how it works. And the front lat spread Jay isn't even hitting the shot yet not very accurate. Not that it would matter because I think Ramy looks better in that pose anyway. But again , pictures are a poor substitute for video and actually being there.
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It finally posted. Jay losing again.
(http://www.mundoanabolico.net/attachments/fotos-18/2444d1380643960-mr-olympia-2013-big-ramy-e-jay-1.jpg)
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Dude, now youre arguing just for the sake of arguing, trying to get a rise out of me. 4 poses, all in which Jay is clearly losing.
Clearly Jay losing another pose.
(http://www.mundoanabolico.net/attachments/fotos-18/2445d1380643962-mr-olympia-2013-big-ramy-e-jay-2.jpg)
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That's a good read Howard, but what I'm missing here is the concept of conflicts of interest. Too often I see coaches/trainers, sponsors, gym owners, etc as judges. In fact, I can't remember a show where this wasn't the case.
The "conflict of interest" started to creep in during my last years judging.
I was the last judge ( I knew of) that had a career completely outside of "the fitness industry".
Now, the same people that run gyms, train contestants and sell supplements, are judging contestants in shows.
At the pro level things look even more insular without any independent judges now.
This kind of close knit situation can create "group think".
Unless guy shows up looking horrible, they might assume Phil is always better then Kai or Jay is always better then Rammi, etc.
I suspect that most pro events are lot more insular due the unique nature of hardcore pro BB.
Smaller NPC shows may be more objective simply because most judges won't personally know most of the contestants they judge?
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Same thoughts/feeling here, Howard, and what pisses me off the most is that those 'judges' aren't hiding it, so it seems 'normal'. As a result there are tons of robbed (or coddled) competitors every year. It remains a subjective sport, but fuck, what if >90% of the crowd disagrees with Branch' 1th placings?
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Same thoughts/feeling here, Howard, and what pisses me off the most is that those 'judges' aren't hiding it, so it seems 'normal'. As a result there are tons of robbed (or coddled) competitors every year. It remains a subjective sport, but fuck, what if >90% of the crowd disagrees with Branch' 1th placings?
Without a clearly defined standard NOBODY really knows why a guy wins or places higher in pro shows.
It's a haphazard crap shoot
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Not how it works , Ramy can beat Jay in a couple of poses and still lose. You have to know how contests are judged before you can just scream unfair. Pictures don't mean jack compared to reality either.
If pictures don't reveal true condition, size and shape why even bother having them taken and published? There is definitely instances where pictures don't do justice but to say there's no carryover is foolish.
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Imagine being Ramy and having to place low like that. Wtf is going on in the IFBB?
Who picks the judges and on what criteria?
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Without a clearly defined standard NOBODY really knows why a guy wins or places higher in pro shows.
It's a haphazard crap shoot
Youre clearly wrong in the case of Ramy and Jay. Its clear that Jay is getting destroyed here. You do not need to be there in person to see that.
I understand since youre a judge youre going to take the side of the IFBB, but youre clearly wrong.
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You have never judged a show where there was serious prize money. End of thread.
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Don't bother with ND on these subjects.
ND Has all the Lego sets, action figures, video games, and coffee mugs from the Nasser on the Way trilogy.
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Don't bother with ND on these subjects.
ND Has all the Lego sets, action figures, video games, and coffee mugs from the Nasser on the Way trilogy.
And wont admit when hes clearly wrong.
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And wont admit when hes clearly wrong.
Says the guy who doesn't even know how contests are judged asking how one person can lose to another ::)
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Don't bother with ND on these subjects.
ND Has all the Lego sets, action figures, video games, and coffee mugs from the Nasser on the Way trilogy.
Don't bother with me on this subject because you'll get corrected ;)
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I was a judge for many years on both the NPC and the AAU before that. Yup, I judged the actual Mr America when it was around.
The real "truth" about BB judging and contests is a lot more mundane then most would believe.
Based on my experience and observations here is my take on how it all works:
1. The real judging "secret" isn't any elaborate judging conspiracy to fix contests. It's the exact opposite. The process is lot less detailed then some want to believe and the judges do the best they can.
At any NPC contest, you have a sheet with the entrant numbers listed in numerical order for each class and division. Above that are the placements (1,2,3 ...) on the horizontal.
a) At ANY time during the judging you can place them , by putting an X for the place you wish them to be. There are no "points" for winning a pose or certain bodyparts, etc. The judges placements ( 1st, 2nd , 3rd...) ARE the only points and low score wins.
b) The overall winner for every division is picked during the night show finals. The class winner and all other placements are determined during the prejudging. The posing routines during the night show are not scored or even watched that closely by the judges.
The overall division winner is picked from the class winners and compared briefly during the night show. Each judge is given a small pc. of paper to write down who wins and hands it down to the head judge who counts up the votes from each judge. The final pose down is rarely , is ever scored ,as most judges have already turned in their pick by then . The overall pose down gives the head judge time to tally the votes and gets the crowd hyped, that's all it is.
c) Most of the actual judging is done within the first few minutes of appearing on stage. The comparisons help when it's close between places.
d) Being BIG, ripped, lean and darkly tanned is the first thing a judge notices when you walk on stage.
e) At most regional , state or local NPC shows, the biggest weakness is not being in ripped condition or dark enough under the lights.
You compete in your WEIGHT class, so size (usually) isn't the biggest problem. Being too fat and lacking cuts is!
2. The bikini division has intentionally vague standards. It's really all about sex appeal and getting a lot more girls to enter contests.
3. Figure is designed for a fit, lean girl who has lean legs with some upper body V taper and good arm/delt muscle tone.
A good figure girl must have lean thighs and no visible fat on the hammys with tight glutes.
4. MPD ( wearing board shorts) was developed to increase the number of paid entrants in NPC contests. They don't care about classic physiques or a natural look, etc. AGAIN< the real purpose of this division was to get guys who worked out but weren't juiced up freaks to enter a contest and PAY THE ENTRY FEES and npc dues.
5. Most local , state and regional contest promoters want to make $$ but do it mostly for the love of the sport.
The national and pro level is more about profit and numbers then the love of BB.
6. The supplement industry needs a place to market their crap and the bigger shows need sponsors.
(a) Most of the fitness models make : under $100 and may get a room for the show weekend paid by the vendor , for working the booth.
(b) Many supplement contracts pay with a monthly product credit. ONLY the biggest name pros get a salary for being "sponsored".
7. I never judged at the pro level , but suspect it's pretty similar to what I did. Most promoters don't care who wins and leave that to the judges.
What can happen is some guy or girl will compete and be talked about by those in/round the sport. The judges might take a better look at them but still NOT pick them to win if they look like shit. Every judge has some bias or thing they look for when picking the winner. Now, with all the extra divisions , most judges are too damn fatigued to judge all the bodybuilders with enough detail. That's the real problem.
9. Nobody judging or running the contest , knows or cares about most people who enter the event. Sure, they love the sport but in the end they want to make $$$. NOBODY is going to risk that on some lame conspiracy to deny you 3rd place in the Lt wt novice LOL. YOU are NOT that important .
(http://media.giphy.com/media/uvXibAzrgei3e/giphy.gif)
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There are no "points" for winning a pose or certain bodyparts, etc. The judges placements ( 1st, 2nd , 3rd...) ARE the only points and low score wins.
I always wondered how people could be so stupid when they keep saying so and so should have points taken off for weak calves or whatever. Where would the judges take points off from? There is nothing on the scorecard for such a thing to occur.
Being BIG, ripped, lean and darkly tanned is the first thing a judge notices when you walk on stage.
I would have thought that if they were a 'proper' judge they would notice balance and proportion first. Any fool can notice the obvious first.
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Youre clearly wrong in the case of Ramy and Jay. Its clear that Jay is getting destroyed here. You do not need to be there in person to see that.
I understand since youre a judge youre going to take the side of the IFBB, but youre clearly wrong.
1. I never was an IFBB pro judge and quit judging in the NPC 2 yrs ago when MPD got big.
2. Watching the comparisons live and close to the stage is different then pics.
The real issue is the complete lack of clear , transparent standards to judge contests by.
There are no enforced rules on what drugs or substances a BB can use when they compete.
A girl in the bikini or figure can have a boob job, butt implants, thigh lippo with hair extensions and compete/win a show .
My point is that the IFBB and NPC have several pages of rules and judging standards.
Very few are enforced or adhered to.
It's like a blind man saying the ball is in or out in tennis based on where he "hears" it bounce.
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Says the guy who doesn't even know how contests are judged asking how one person can lose to another ::)
Says the guy who thinks he knows how the contests are judged and is too stupid to see the who the clear winner is between Jay and Ramy.
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Says the guy who thinks he knows how the contests are judged and is too stupid to see the who the clear winner is between Jay and Ramy.
For starters I agree that Rammy looks better using the accepted norms of judging a modern pro BB.
Now, what exactly are the IFBB judging standards and how are they applied in that Olympia ?
Believe it or not, judging now, is more about using "accepted and understood " standards then the written , official standards.
It's more case of group think and know what's the current look vs any real objective judging.
Back in the 1960's Twiggy was the hot looking girl. She was stick thin with a short, boyish pixie cut and pale white.
Today, fuller figure , long haired ethnic babes are often the hot ones ( Kim K , Beyonnce or JLO ).
Remember from 1977-79, Frank Zane was the Mr Olympia standard at a ripped 5'9" and 190-200 lbs max.
With 5 years a man 50 lbs heavier was the ideal named Lee Haney.
Sadly, the best physique is as much what's in style as judging sexy woman.