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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: calfzilla on November 28, 2014, 05:05:29 AM
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I watch guys like Dorian and see how intense they train, seem to be in a lot of pain bringing the set beyond failure and such. My question does this super high intensity equate to more mass or are you just as well off doing your sets with great form on all reps and avg intensity?
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some claim it does, other that it doesnt. but even if it does one has to calculate the higher risk of injury (or just the mentality it requires to wanna go through that shit every time you hit the gym, although some feel they havent done enough unless they push themselves) the end result might be negligible.
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the ole NO PAIN NO GAIN has been around forever and just like arnold said in pumping iron,IF U CAN GO THRU THIS PAIN BARRIER U MAY GET TO B A CHAMPION,IF U CANT,FORGET IT. AND THATS WHAT MOST PEOPLE LACK THE WILL TO GO IN AND SAY IM GONNA GO THRU NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS,I THREW UP MANY TIMES WHILE I WAS WORKING OUT. im not exactly sure about the rest but im sure everyones got the point by know ;)
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To see just how little i need to train to maintain i've recently slashed my workout time to 10 minutes! 2 exercises with a 5 minute limit fitting in as many sets as i can in that time each one to failure with about 5 seconds rest max in between each. As a result i'm actually aching later that day rather than it creeping up the next, my muscles feel harder and fuller, tighter and vascularity showing more. So i might be working out less but the intensity is much higher and it seems to be working for me right now, so i'm actually gaining some rather than maintaining, bonus!
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To see just how little i need to train to maintain i've recently slashed my workout time to 10 minutes! 2 exercises with a 5 minute limit fitting in as many sets as i can in that time each one to failure with about 5 seconds rest max in between each. As a result i'm actually aching later that day rather than it creeping up the next, my muscles feel harder and fuller, tighter and vascularity showing more. So i might be working out less but the intensity is much higher and it seems to be working for me right now, so i'm actually gaining some rather than maintaining, bonus!
thats cool man,u r doing less and getting more out of it,cant beat that.higher intensity with shorter time in the gym always works well for me also
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exactly, i don't even go to the gym though, use my stuff at home.
thats cool man,u r doing less and getting more out of it,cant beat that.higher intensity with shorter time in the gym always works well for me also
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I watch guys like Dorian and see how intense they train, seem to be in a lot of pain bringing the set beyond failure and such. My question does this super high intensity equate to more mass or are you just as well off doing your sets with great form on all reps and avg intensity?
I think itīs about longevity in your training. I have posted 2 videoes from Mike Mentzer and i find it intresting what he says. training to failure is hard over a long time. I think Bill Pearl was correct in his comments about this subject. Moderate volume works for ME. Still Hench says he is getting good results. I know him from Iron Age, does know his training.
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Leads to more muscularity on density IMO but not necessarily size for the sake of size. Compare todays pros to 70's bbers.
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Contraction efficiency is the most important aspect for muscle growth . ;)
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I feel like when I'm cutting I do far less and focus basically all on form, when I'm fat and bulking I try to push beyond failure often
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look at heath you phaggots
just go in and pump a bit
gotta pump urself full of drugs first tho
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I think there is a difference in a pain from lifting weights and feeling the burn and a "oh fuck, i just injured myself" pain. The normal discomfort associated with lifting weights is the pain arnold was talking about. Or at least thats my take. I think regardless of natural/juicing or strong/weak, you should push yourself with intensity when in the gym. As i always say, experiment around and find what works better for YOU. Some like longer more controlled sessions not going to failure every set. Others like quick sessions of every set to failure. No right or wrong answer. The challenge lies in finding what works for you.
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As long as you are doing something relatively easy, working within your functional ability, how will that stimulate an adaptive response? As Jones you to say, you have to attempt the momentary impossible.
How much intensity is require to stimulate an adaptive response. Does it have to be 100%? Maybe it's just 90% or 85%? But as Mentzer use to say, the only points we can reasonably and accurately measure is zero or a 100%. So he said we should strive for a 100% intensity of effort.
Of course, we all know that you can do everything right. Even take hormones and still your body won't respond. I'm sure Wolf and Dex has done everything under the sun to bring up his calves all to no avail.
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It works for some. For others it's not necessary.
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I would say that when you reach 35 there is little benefit in that type of brutal, long training to failure. I much prefer short and intense, lower poundages. But I'm convinced that more brutal training, in your formative years, provides you with a solid base, some kind of muscle memory, which you can tap into, as needed, using different training methods, later in life.
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I think there is a difference in a pain from lifting weights and feeling the burn and a "oh fuck, i just injured myself" pain. The normal discomfort associated with lifting weights is the pain arnold was talking about. Or at least thats my take. I think regardless of natural/juicing or strong/weak, you should push yourself with intensity when in the gym. As i always say, experiment around and find what works better for YOU. Some like longer more controlled sessions not going to failure every set. Others like quick sessions of every set to failure. No right or wrong answer. The challenge lies in finding what works for you.
What a fucking prick, this is getbig, this isn't womens weekly, as if we don't know the difference between good pain and bad
Get the fuck out if here with that shit, you've realy fucked my day up...
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What a fucking prick, this is getbig, this isn't womens weekly, as if we don't know the difference between good pain and bad
Get the fuck out if here with that shit, you've realy fucked my day up...
good! You sound like a complete asshole so please let me know in the future how i can fuck more of your days up you psycho.
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Idiots train hard! It only make u sore! High volume low/medium intensity is the shit! Never wear your body out! Its not the intensity in the gym giving the result its the everyday repeat! day out day in week out week in, year after year!
How did Dorian train the first 10 years? My guess is A LOT OF SETS IN THE GYM. I think that's a bigger factor for his result. The last years was just a change with drugs and doses, nothing so much with training
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Idiots train hard! It only make u sore! High volume low/medium intensity is the shit! Never wear your body out! Its not the intensity in the gym giving the result its the everyday repeat! day out day in week out week in, year after year!
How did Dorian train the first 10 years? My guess is A LOT OF SETS IN THE GYM. I think that's a bigger factor for his result. The last years was just a change with drugs and doses, nothing so much with training
I agree
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I watch guys like Dorian and see how intense they train, seem to be in a lot of pain bringing the set beyond failure and such. My question does this super high intensity equate to more mass or are you just as well off doing your sets with great form on all reps and avg intensity?
Yes for me it does but everybody is diffrent. When I take my pre-workout and just go balls out maybe not that heavy of sets but training for pumps I get so sore. When I have my lower volume(low reps) power days I don't seem to get as sore. I notice way more growth going a little lighter and just banging out reps and taking maybe 15 second rests. of course you do want to do a few heavy sets and have a few heavy days but best results always come from volume to me. but like i said everybody is diffrent. If you break it down to science pushing forced reps,drop sets all around doing high volume your muscles have no choice but to grow. If you do one bodypart a workout say back day and you can get through 20 sets say 10-20 reps per set in 40-45 minutes your going to feel that shit!
last back workout I started out doing 50 pull-ups on a assited pull-up machine not stopping if it got to heavy I dropped the resistance and kept going then I went into my working sets that was 2 days ago and my lats are still sore. When I do heavy day low volume but heavy weight I don't get sore like that.
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what if being sore has no relevance as far as muscle growth go
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it comes down to one word GENETICS AND DRUGS, lee haney was known for not going balls to the wall in his training,LEES philosophy was STIMULATE DONT ANNIHILATE,he trained just hard enough but not to hard. then look at GASPARI, he buried LEE HANEY in training sessions when they trained together yet lee beat him everytime onstage,GENETICS MY FREIND. u either got them or u dont, be pissed off at mother nature or god,who ever u believe gave all of u your bodies. look at paul dillet,he was the laziest fuck to come down the pike and to top it off he used weights that a 15yr old newb used,yet he was a monster. some guys have it and some guys dont
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what if being sore has no relevance as far as muscle growth go
It does. I even am a enhanced bodybuilder so usually I don't get as sore as a natural bodybuilder but if I really get that good mind muscle connection and literally push say 400-500 reps per back say doing 20-25 sets within 45 minutes you should be sore or your not using strict form. I get pissed off when I don't get sore. everyday here knows the goal is to get a crazy pump and fuck up your muscle fibers a little so they grow back stronger. I am noit saying go tear a pec but you do want the fibers to tear a little and you def want to stretch out the fascia of the muscle.
The more blood and nutrients you can push into the muscle the better. they have no choice but to grown when your pushing 400-500 reps per bodypart/ smaller bodyparts at least 250 biceps/250 Triceps on a superset. Also if you use juice and eat right your going to get so many nutrients and blood to the target muscle of course you should get a little sore if not your doing something wrong.
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It does. I even am a enhanced bodybuilder so usually I don't get as sore as a natural bodybuilder but if I really get that good mind muscle connection and literally push say 400-500 reps per back say doing 20-25 sets within 45 minutes you should be sore or your not using strict form. I get pissed off when I don't get sore. everyday here knows the goal is to get a crazy pump and fuck up your muscle fibers a little so they grow back stronger. I am noit saying go tear a pec but you do want the fibers to tear a little and you def want to stretch out the fascia of the muscle.
The more blood and nutrients you can push into the muscle the better. they have no choice but to grown when your pushing 400-500 reps per bodypart/ smaller bodyparts at least 250 biceps/250 Triceps on a superset. Also if you use juice and eat right your going to get so many nutrients and blood to the target muscle of course you should get a little sore if not your doing something wrong.
same here,i dont care if i had the best workout of my life if i aint sore the next day im dissapointed bigtime, to me soreness means the muscle was overloaded and to me overloaded means growth,providing what whitewillow just said about the nutrients and stuff.when ones been lifting for as long as me u get to know your body and u can distinguish the difference between tendon and joint soreness compared to muscle soreness, to b honest if u push your muscles super hard u will always have a little soreness everywhere,alot will be lactic acid but alot will be just muscle breakdown damage thats begging for protien to repair itself,especially if u r a high rep person,the lactic acid seems to get me more when i do a super high rep workout compared to a higher intensity low volume workout
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same here,i dont care if i had the best workout of my life if i aint sore the next day im dissapointed bigtime, to me soreness means the muscle was overloaded and to me overloaded means growth,providing what whitewillow just said about the nutrients and stuff.when ones been lifting for as long as me u get to know your body and u can distinguish the difference between tendon and joint soreness compared to muscle soreness, to b honest if u push your muscles super hard u will always have a little soreness everywhere,alot will be lactic acid but alot will be just muscle breakdown damage thats begging for protien to repair itself,especially if u r a high rep person,the lactic acid seems to get me more when i do a super high rep workout compared to a higher intensity low volume workout
True when it comes down to it we want to be working muscle not joints. I have had heavy days where all I got was sore joints the target muscle was not sore. I can tell the same exact thing you want the actually muscle tissue to be sore not your joints. I still say some low volume heavy days or good even if you are working some a little of the joint. Overall you want balls to the walls training. I think the gaspari/haney comment is great point I train more like rich, rich used to train balls to the walls. Lee just had better genetics and more muscle maturity.
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John Meadows said he saw the best progress when he stopped being sore all the time. He has never been sore in years and is growing like a weed, training 7 days a week.
I actually noticed i wasnt getting sore anymore during my first test E cycle. Each week i was getting stronger and stronger, because i actually recovered 100% from the previous workout. If you are broken down and sore all the time you just cant recover and make constant progress over time. You have to be smart and alternate intense traumatizing sessions with more pump oriented stuff to make the most of your training imo.
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No pain no gain.
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I train tuesday to sat with my new routine. My muscles are sore when I flex them, no tendon or joint pain. After laying off Sun and Mon I'm fully recovered and craving that muscle stimulation again, I've never felt so positive before. These quick routines of high intensity with as of as many sets I can fit in the time limit of 5 mins is giving me noticeable results. I never realised I could bang out a decent amount of reps again after 5 seconds rest, I've always gone with the norm of resting 30 secs or more, my cardio is improving this way too!
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If intensity was the magic bullet we would all get the best gains from doing something like 4 sets of 1 rep for every exercise. That would be as intense as it gets.
Even though I train with a form of HIT I completely get the majority of successful bodybuilders train with volume. No it isn't easy training. Saying it's easy would be like a 400 meter sprinter saying to a 10K runner your training isn't intense and therefore it's easy.
I really believes a muscle gets bigger through for lack of a better term muscular endurance that's not to be confused with aerobic exercise. If a guy does something like 4 x 10 or 5 x 12 he is training in that direction. As long a he throws some heavy days in it's perfect.
The way someone doing say 5x12 training would go is like this. First set he stops at 12 reps but could have gotten around 17. Second he stops at 12 but could have gotten maybe 15. Third set stops at 12 but could have gotten 13. Forth set fails at 12. Fifth he fails at 10. Next training session he tries for all 12 rep sets. When that is accomplished add a little weight. Of course there are lot of other parameters like strictness of the reps, range of motion and tempo. Other things like the amount of rest in between sets. Training with volume can be incredibly brutal. That's why Arnold got so pissed off when Mentzer said his training was easy.
When you train with volume you are hitting all the fibers hard. When you do one set of 10 to failure you are not. If a HIT guy gets some rest between sets you could almost duplicate that one set of 10 with say a set of 9 or 8 reps. (This is where a HIT religious fanatic will talk about hitting a stick of dynamite with a hammer and recuperation)
The majority of bodybuilders have used volume. Even the super strong ones like Franco, Coleman, and Eddie Robinson. Hit can lead to quick burn so that's why it's followers have all gone to training once every 4 or 5 days. Give me a break.
The true meaning of intensity to me suggests a tool and not a training protocol. Train hard and have a work ethic.
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you know what when i train with 5x5 i do get stronger but when i go back to a split with some volume i feel it. The overall stimulation is much more powerful. much more muscle fibres as Rich wrote are recruited. Good old fashioned pyramid training is good.. Depends on the Individual.
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If intensity was the magic bullet we would all get the best gains from doing something like 4 sets of 1 rep for every exercise. That would be as intense as it gets.
Even though I train with a form of HIT I completely get the majority of successful bodybuilders train with volume. No it isn't easy training. Saying it's easy would be like a 400 meter sprinter saying to a 10K runner your training isn't intense and therefore it's easy.
I really believes a muscle gets bigger through for lack of a better term muscular endurance that's not to be confused with aerobic exercise. If a guy does something like 4 x 10 or 5 x 12 he is training in that direction. As long a he throws some heavy days in it's perfect.
The way someone doing say 5x12 training would go is like this. First set he stops at 12 reps but could have gotten around 17. Second he stops at 12 but could have gotten maybe 15. Third set stops at 12 but could have gotten 13. Forth set fails at 12. Fifth he fails at 10. Next training session he tries for all 12 rep sets. When that is accomplished add a little weight. Of course there are lot of other parameters like strictness of the reps, range of motion and tempo. Other things like the amount of rest in between sets. Training with volume can be incredibly brutal. That's why Arnold got so pissed off when Mentzer said his training was easy.
When you train with volume you are hitting all the fibers hard. When you do one set of 10 to failure you are not. If a HIT guy gets some rest between sets you could almost duplicate that one set of 10 with say a set of 9 or 8 reps. (This is where a HIT religious fanatic will talk about hitting a stick of dynamite with a hammer and recuperation)
The majority of bodybuilders have used volume. Even the super strong ones like Franco, Coleman, and Eddie Robinson. Hit can lead to quick burn so that's why it's followers have all gone to training once every 4 or 5 days. Give me a break.
The true meaning of intensity to me suggests a tool and not a training protocol. Train hard and have a work ethic.
That assessment of 12 reps is interesting and I will try that. Because when It seems when i follow the similar split of trying to do 4 of 12 with the same weight, failing on each set, i never get stronger.
Lately ive been doing full body work outs 3 times a week, 4-8 sets per BP. Im a volume guy, so im hitting each BP 3 times a week. However, for pure hypertrophy/roundness of muscles, this style training is NOT cutting it. I look much less "bodybuilder-esq" on this split. When i do a gironda style 8x8, i get that 3D hypertrophy effect
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Not sure sorry friend :'(
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That assessment of 12 reps is interesting and I will try that. Because when It seems when i follow the similar split of trying to do 4 of 12 with the same weight, failing on each set, i never get stronger.
Lately ive been doing full body work outs 3 times a week, 4-8 sets per BP. Im a volume guy, so im hitting each BP 3 times a week. However, for pure hypertrophy/roundness of muscles, this style training is NOT cutting it. I look much less "bodybuilder-esq" on this split. When i do a gironda style 8x8, i get that 3D hypertrophy effect
Confused by what you wrote. If your definition of getting stronger is your one rep max doing multiple sets of 12 isn't right or optimal path to get you there. Improving the weight used with multiple sets of 8 to 12 will improve your muscular endurance that is a very important component of muscle growth. I don't understand what you wrote concerning you go to failure for 4 sets of 12. If you truly went to failure on your first set of 12 you wouldn't be able to get a second set of 12 reps let alone a third and a 4th.
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Confused by what you wrote. If your definition of getting stronger is your one rep max doing multiple sets of 12 isn't right or optimal path to get you there. Improving the weight used with multiple sets of 8 to 12 will improve your muscular endurance that is a very important component of muscle growth. I don't understand what you wrote concerning you go to failure for 4 sets of 12. If you truly went to failure on your first set of 12 you wouldn't be able to get a second set of 12 reps let alone a third and a 4th.
Right, i was agreeing with you. Im gonna try your approach of not going to failure on the first few sets