Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: eh2442 on December 30, 2015, 11:35:09 PM
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i agree that he is extremely strong and has a very unusual amount of lean muscle tissue. That 99% of the world would need a bunch of drugs to achieve.
But that doesn't guarantee he is on roids! I have been training hard core naturaul for almost 30 years and .....i am no Ohearn... but was blessed with very
rare genetics and have been accused of being on stuff my entire life. My question is to the very experienced lifters.... Show me any specific pics or details that
looks like he is on chemicals...? not just his strength or mass per height...stats.
For example his traps don't have a drug look.... and his face isn't bloated...when he is 4% body fat ....etc
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I just go by experience an intuition. You said it yourself, his mass, height, bf% and strength are ALL indicators to me. Plus, why wouldnt you take anything possible if fitness/ looking good was your job.
What % of NFL players do you think take some form of test or steroid?
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First off, nobody is that strong naturally, period. Traps don't have the drug look? What exactly is that look? There are a lot of guys that use drugs that have no traps. Face isn't bloated at 4%? He doesn't abuse insulin like the pros do. Most everyone believes he wears a toupee, so his hair is thin at least. Genetics or not, nobody looks that good at his age without at least test and GH. He looks fantastic, and is strong as fuck, but natural he is not, nor has he been for a very long time.
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First off, nobody is that strong naturally, period. Traps don't have the drug look? What exactly is that look? There are a lot of guys that use drugs that have no traps. Face isn't bloated at 4%? He doesn't abuse insulin like the pros do. Most everyone believes he wears a toupee, so his hair is thin at least. Genetics or not, nobody looks that good at his age without at least test and GH. He looks fantastic, and is strong as fuck, but natural he is not, nor has he been for a very long time.
Indeed. His strength stats are competitive with many of the strength stars of the 50's - mid 70's, despite being #50 - 75 lighter, and much older. Also this whole doesn't look like a modern roid user thing is ridiculous. The reason he doesn't is A) good genetics for carrying size, B) good drug choices, and C) being smart about weight control, and not playing the size game. He stays relatively light for his height, he's 6' 3"ish, and only #240 - #275 give or take a bit, depending on year, etc.... Meanwhile you've got 5' 6" - 5' 10" pros running around heavier. If you beef Mike up to current professional roid head size standards, he'd have to be #320 - 340 at his height.
Go look at mags from the 60's -70's, you'll see steroid users that look just like O'hearn.
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i agree that he is extremely strong and has a very unusual amount of lean muscle tissue. That 99% of the world would need a bunch of drugs to achieve.
But that doesn't guarantee he is on roids! I have been training hard core naturaul for almost 30 years and .....i am no Ohearn... but was blessed with very
rare genetics and have been accused of being on stuff my entire life. My question is to the very experienced lifters.... Show me any specific pics or details that
looks like he is on chemicals...? not just his strength or mass per height...stats.
For example his traps don't have a drug look.... and his face isn't bloated...when he is 4% body fat ....etc
I find it utterly astounding that in this day and age that some people remain so incredibly gullible and naive.
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bro are u on drugs
you cant get that big and lean without drugs.
unless your mom fucked a gorilla and got pregnant
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I find it utterly astounding that in this day and age that some people remain so incredibly gullible and naive.
I am just stating...i can usually see specific things like skin texture, gyno, bulby shoulders....and torso like frogs....in drug users. He doesn't have anything
that looks like drugs...
Keep in mind there is always some rare breed individuals ....smarter, stronger, faster....etc naturally. He may be king of the hill.
Thats why i requested you guys who are completely sure he is on stuff...to point out what looks like drugs...on him...?
I am fine with being wrong about this.....
I just don't see it...with him....
u can't just say because he is crazy strong.....or his age...
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(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IDgpxuUtV_g/maxresdefault.jpg).
(http://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/2f/a9/8c/2fa98cdde9eb455def3ff6dfa0f14f5f.jpg).
http://www.musclememory.com/mags.php?mag=mmi .
http://www.musclememory.com/mags.php?mag=mf .
http://www.musclememory.com/mags.php?mag=md .
http://www.musclememory.com/mags.php?mag=im .
http://www.musclememory.com/mags.php?mag=mb .
There are links to almost all the covers / cover models of 5 major muscle magazines. O'hearn beats or compares favorable to almost all of them, including steroid users till maybe the mid 80's.
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I am just stating...i can usually see specific things like skin texture, gyno, bulby shoulders....and torso like frogs....in drug users. He doesn't have anything
that looks like drugs...
Keep in mind there is always some rare breed individuals ....smarter, stronger, faster....etc naturally. He may be king of the hill.
Thats why i requested you guys who are completely sure he is on stuff...to point out what looks like drugs...on him...?
I am fine with being wrong about this.....
I just don't see it...with him....
u can't just say because he is crazy strong.....or his age...
Ask yourself how many natural trainers are there that eat well and train hard for years on end (sometimes decades on end) and don't look even remotely close to what O'Hearn does. Then ask yourself how many men actually abuse steroids and PED's and still don't even remotely look close to O'Hearn. If countless others taking copious amounts of hormones still can't even remotely come close to O'Hearn, how is it O'Hearn has achieved naturally what so many drug abusers can not.
And the look is undeniably the drug look, the vascularity, the 3D Deltoids and the obvious exaggerated amount of lean muscle mass.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IDgpxuUtV_g/maxresdefault.jpg)
http://nattyornot.com/mike-o-hearn-natural/ (http://nattyornot.com/mike-o-hearn-natural/)
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dumbest post of 2015
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LOL @ everyone giving serious responses to an obvious troll.
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LOL @ everyone giving serious responses to an obvious troll.
Takes one to know one...is all i am saying.....
and i am a rare natural breed....
315 on incline for 6 reps...normal workout....36 plates....for 6 on leg press....normal workout...
very vascular....etc....
granted...not close to Ohearn numbers.....but i have a similar look....to his....
So if he is on.shit.....point out what looks like drugs.....again....not just stating his total mass or strength s not possible with out drugs.....
Show me...?
I have no problem...with being proven wrong...etc cheers...
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Takes one to know one...is all i am saying.....
and i am a rare natural breed....
315 on incline for 6 reps...normal workout....36 plates....for 6 on leg press....normal workout...
very vascular....etc....
granted...not close to Ohearn numbers.....but i have a similar look....to his....
So if he is on.shit.....point out what looks like drugs.....again....not just stating his total mass or strength s not possible with out drugs.....
Show me...?
I have no problem...with being proven wrong...etc cheers...
post pics, i bet you look like shit
also every gymrat training for 3 years can bench 315 for reps ::)
your genetics are far from "elite" LOL
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Pretty incredible that his body isn't falling apart yet considering the pounding on his body that heavy training style must have. Same style as Ronnie.
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post pics, i bet you look like shit
also every gymrat training for 3 years can bench 315 for reps ::)
your genetics are far from "elite" LOL
Far from every gym rat can do that, very far.
But regardint the topic, I have a friend, he's ripped year-round, like - very ripped, you can see the stirations everywhere, like he's a week from a show, yet he eats A LOT and has quite some size, not flat by any means. The size may not be big, but the condition makes him look bigger. The thing that adds to the look is that he has very good muscle bellies, kind of R.Robinson type of bis and naturally good back/etc... If I wouldn't know better (and he's a very good friend of mine, so I know for sure) I'd be convinced he's on juice, but he is not. It is very rare, but sometimes happens. Not Ohearn level, but still impressive for a clean person.
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All guys in the 70's didn't use insulin or growth hormones. Just wonder if he keeps it old school. Whatever guys are using to day makes them looked soft and bloated. Relaxed on stage they look like water bag muscles.
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I am just stating...i can usually see specific things like skin texture, gyno, bulby shoulders....and torso like frogs....in drug users. He doesn't have anything
that looks like drugs...
Keep in mind there is always some rare breed individuals ....smarter, stronger, faster....etc naturally. He may be king of the hill.
Thats why i requested you guys who are completely sure he is on stuff...to point out what looks like drugs...on him...?
I am fine with being wrong about this.....
I just don't see it...with him....
u can't just say because he is crazy strong.....or his age...
He's had Gyno surgery before, you can see he's had some chest work in certain poses
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Gimmicks 'gon gim of peace...
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20 years later, and dude looks even better. pretty awesome.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
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All guys in the 70's didn't use insulin or growth hormones. Just wonder if he keeps it old school. Whatever guys are using to day makes them looked soft and bloated. Relaxed on stage they look like water bag muscles.
Nothing old school here. The dude has been on GH about 20 years straight!
Probably not a big insulin user but insulin doesn't necessarily mess you up if you dont try to force your weight up constantly by overeating etc.
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i agree that he is extremely strong and has a very unusual amount of lean muscle tissue. That 99% of the world would need a bunch of drugs to achieve.
But that doesn't guarantee he is on roids! I have been training hard core naturaul for almost 30 years and .....i am no Ohearn... but was blessed with very
rare genetics and have been accused of being on stuff my entire life. My question is to the very experienced lifters.... Show me any specific pics or details that
looks like he is on chemicals...? not just his strength or mass per height...stats.
For example his traps don't have a drug look.... and his face isn't bloated...when he is 4% body fat ....etc
OP needs to post a pic or STFU and GTFO.
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Why are there so many threads about this guy?
Is he the new Jodels and these are schmoe threads?
I literally don't know or give a fuck who he is and there's damn near a thread about what his next birthday present should be.
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I literally don't know or give a fuck who he is and there's damn near a thread about what his next birthday present should be.
He's a god among us, mere mortals. Now you know. Hope this helps.
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i think he has one of the most pleasing physiques to the eye , but i would have to say yes to the drugs, veins to thick , to 3d and gh looking skin . just my thought
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Takes one to know one...is all i am saying.....
and i am a rare natural breed....
315 on incline for 6 reps...normal workout....36 plates....for 6 on leg press....normal workout...
very vascular....etc....
granted...not close to Ohearn numbers.....but i have a similar look....to his....
So if he is on.shit.....point out what looks like drugs.....again....not just stating his total mass or strength s not possible with out drugs.....
Show me...?
I have no problem...with being proven wrong...etc cheers...
You're seriously going to use 36 plates on leg press as an indicator of strength? Come on. Are you squatting over 600 naturally? 315 on incline for 6 reps is good, nothing mind blowing for being a natural. Ask yourself, how many guys do you see that are on a boatload of drugs that look like total garbage? I see guys running massive amounts of gear that look natural, have no strength, and look like they barely train. A guy at the gym was asking for advice, and he proceeded to tell me he was on over a gram of test, and 50 mg of dbol. I thought he just joined the gym. You're incredibly naive if you think Mike has ever been natural. Like I said, he doesn't abuse the hell out of insulin, keeps his weight in check, is careful with drug selection, so what his skin is clear? So is mine. GH does wonders for your skin if you use it correctly, and long enough. Especially as you get older.
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All guys in the 70's didn't use insulin or growth hormones. Just wonder if he keeps it old school. Whatever guys are using to day makes them looked soft and bloated. Relaxed on stage they look like water bag muscles.
The bloated, soft look comes from massive insulin abuse. Used correctly, and in sane amounts, insulin works very well. Mike uses GH, and a good amount of it. That is the main reason for the look he has. GH works absolute wonders, especially as you get near 40 and over.
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OP is either ignorant, naïve, or stupid. Maybe all three.
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i agree that he is extremely strong and has a very unusual amount of lean muscle tissue. That 99% of the world would need a bunch of drugs to achieve.
But that doesn't guarantee he is on roids! I have been training hard core naturaul for almost 30 years and .....i am no Ohearn... but was blessed with very
rare genetics and have been accused of being on stuff my entire life. My question is to the very experienced lifters.... Show me any specific pics or details that
looks like he is on chemicals...? not just his strength or mass per height...stats.
For example his traps don't have a drug look.... and his face isn't bloated...when he is 4% body fat ....etc
While I tend to agree with most here that he used some juice, I think it was/is moderate.
IT's quite possible that he competed at lighter body wts clean in his early drug tested shows.
BUT, with his elite genetics , he's going to be a big, wide, strong dude.
Think about it like this.
If drugs are the main reason for his strength and physique, why don't most juice monkeys look like O'Hearn?
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The OP is obviously fucking around...
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Think about it like this.
If drugs are the main reason for his strength and physique, why don't most juice monkeys look like O'Hearn?
Think about it like this Howard: first of all he has great genetics. But, how many juice monkeys have slavishly followed a juice regimen for 3 decades straight, not to mention the constant dieting? How many shoot GH every single day for 2 decades straight? His physique has been his top priority always.
I don't really think you comprehend the extent of what he has done to look like he does.
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Think about it like this Howard: first of all he has great genetics. But, how many juice monkeys have slavishly followed a juice regimen for 3 decades straight, not to mention the constant dieting? How many shoot GH every single day for 2 decades straight? His physique has been his top priority always.
I don't really think you comprehend the extent of what he has done to look like he does.
I agree !
Obviously, he had to train and live the lifestyle, day in/day out.
The idea that any meathead can hit a few cycles , eat crap and train haphazard is goofy.
I still doubt he used a lot of drugs, far more likely he was moderate for many years?
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Great genetics for lifting/bbing + drugs + dedication = Mike.
What is there to argue about?
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Great genetics for lifting/bbing + drugs + dedication = Mike.
What is there to argue about?
Bingo!
The older I get , the LESS I care about what some bodybuilder took/didn't take for drugs.
Big Mike O. is a dedicated lifter with a handsome face, ideal frame and physique to make BB more popular.
Big and strong enough to have meathead fans, but loved by mom and daughter alike.
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i agree that he is extremely strong and has a very unusual amount of lean muscle tissue. That 99% of the world would need a bunch of drugs to achieve.
But that doesn't guarantee he is on roids! I have been training hard core naturaul for almost 30 years and .....i am no Ohearn... but was blessed with very
rare genetics and have been accused of being on stuff my entire life. My question is to the very experienced lifters.... Show me any specific pics or details that
looks like he is on chemicals...? not just his strength or mass per height...stats.
For example his traps don't have a drug look.... and his face isn't bloated...when he is 4% body fat ....etc
Commonly said by the person whose never lifted in a Centopani-esque hardcore gym.
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Bingo!
The older I get , the LESS I care about what some bodybuilder took/didn't take for drugs.
Big Mike O. is a dedicated lifter with a handsome face, ideal frame and physique to make BB more popular.
Big and strong enough to have meathead fans, but loved by mom and daughter alike.
Seems unrealistic.
True popularity means the general public accepting/endorsing the drugs necessary to see certain physiques. It'd also imply some duty on the behalf of promoters, sponsors, and consumers when it came to side-effects, injuries, etc.. i.e., the NFL and concussions.
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20 years later, and dude looks even better. pretty awesome.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
Video says he was 6'1" and 246 pounds in '95
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Video says he was 6'1" and 246 pounds in '95
Ohearn looks better today than in 1995, should have won though
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Doug Miller is also natural.
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50f8cc5de4b0a0c4aab51365/t/5459dfbce4b06a5e573f9959/1415176125231/Screen+Shot+2014-11-05+at+3.27.31+AM.png)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/x9t-gxYPjj4/maxresdefault.jpg)
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If any one thinks Mike is natural. There a retarted idiot who is completely clueless. Mikes been using stuff on and off for years and years and not to mention facial surgery and fillers and boat loads of Botox and wears a hair piece. Take that away and he ages in the face 10 years He doesn't use insulin and sticks to hardening anabolics and uses very little test and is on gh 100%. And has lived the lifestyle everyday for decades .So get your head out of his ass and wake the fuck up.
He doesn't have drug traps. Good lord seriously. 🙄
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Doug Miller is also natural.
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50f8cc5de4b0a0c4aab51365/t/5459dfbce4b06a5e573f9959/1415176125231/Screen+Shot+2014-11-05+at+3.27.31+AM.png)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/x9t-gxYPjj4/maxresdefault.jpg)
Yes! He's the nattyest.
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"There a retarted idiot who is completely clueless." ::) ::) ::)
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i agree that he is extremely strong and has a very unusual amount of lean muscle tissue. That 99% of the world would need a bunch of drugs to achieve.
But that doesn't guarantee he is on roids! I have been training hard core naturaul for almost 30 years and .....i am no Ohearn... but was blessed with very
rare genetics and have been accused of being on stuff my entire life. My question is to the very experienced lifters.... Show me any specific pics or details that
looks like he is on chemicals...? not just his strength or mass per height...stats.
For example his traps don't have a drug look.... and his face isn't bloated...when he is 4% body fat ....etc
Crawl back under your rock.
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genetics is all BS
steroids and liposuction are the way
thread over
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post pics, i bet you look like shit
also every gymrat training for 3 years can bench 315 for reps ::)
your genetics are far from "elite" LOL
In the past his post would have been ignored. His pic has likely already been posted in the thread.
Hi Mike now go away! :D
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If any one thinks Mike is natural. There a retarted idiot who is completely clueless. Mikes been using stuff on and off for years and years and not to mention facial surgery and fillers and boat loads of Botox and wears a hair piece. Take that away and he ages in the face 10 years He doesn't use insulin and sticks to hardening anabolics and uses very little test and is on gh 100%. And has lived the lifestyle everyday for decades .So get your head out of his ass and wake the fuck up.
He doesn't have drug traps. Good lord seriously. 🙄
with all due respect to OP yea. That drug trap statement was ridiculous.
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More threads on Micheal O Hearn in 2016, please!
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More threads on Micheal O Hearn in 2016, please!
This one is for you Rich! ;)
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This one is for you Rich! ;)
LOL!
Mike does not fit in that pic at all.
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LOL!
Mike does not fit in that pic at all.
No too clean cut and no bad tats.
Piana's wife's implants are going to explode! :o
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No too clean cut and no bad tats.
Piana's wife's implants are going to explode! :o
Maybe he will do a make over in 2016 to resemble today's popular youtube "heros"
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Ask yourself how many natural trainers are there that eat well and train hard for years on end (sometimes decades on end) and don't look even remotely close to what O'Hearn does. Then ask yourself how many men actually abuse steroids and PED's and still don't even remotely look close to O'Hearn. If countless others taking copious amounts of hormones still can't even remotely come close to O'Hearn, how is it O'Hearn has achieved naturally what so many drug abusers can not.
And the look is undeniably the drug look, the vascularity, the 3D Deltoids and the obvious exaggerated amount of lean muscle mass.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IDgpxuUtV_g/maxresdefault.jpg)
http://nattyornot.com/mike-o-hearn-natural/ (http://nattyornot.com/mike-o-hearn-natural/)
on the flip side, to be objective, why is it so unbelievable that occassionally one or two freaks appear?
o'hearn has nothing of the tell tale signs of a drug abuser, and his physique hasnt changed very much for years.
how many weight trainers train strictly and eat strict for years on end and dont get injured or end up abusing rec drugs?
what amazes me is that GB has so many people on it that immediately rule out the possibility of achieving mike's look.
this look that he has doesnt win him regional contests when up against obvious drug users, and he doesnt have the bunched up, bloated appearance, with speckled skin and distended stomach that so many others do.
yet he still doesnt suddenly get massive.
the more you look at it from an objective standpoint, the more evidence there is that he isnt a user.
that is, once you can get past the bias that you think it cant be done without gear.
that mentality was prevalent here at GB when GH15 was around. try hanging out with some totally natural guys who eat well and train hard and have good genetics and you'll be impressed how much size and shape is possible.
size, bfat and shape are NOT evidence of drug abuse unless they are accompanied by things like bitch tits, aggressive attitude, poor skin, palumboism, guts, abnormal skeletal size, large changes in bweight, water bloat, site scarring, admittance of use, more than minimal new muscle tissue each year. also, hair loss CAN be, but male hair loss is common so its not a smoking gun.
so whilst it is true that some guys who are admitted drug users also dont have many indicators, almost all of them had some of the indicators at one time or more.
the fact is that those who say he is a user, dont know. all it shows is that the person believes that what he has achieved isnt possible. and thats a reflection on themselves.
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Some rather thick and heavy make up on Piana'a face in that pic.
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on the flip side, to be objective, why is it so unbelievable that occassionally one or two freaks appear?
o'hearn has nothing of the tell tale signs of a drug abuser, and his physique hasnt changed very much for years.
how many weight trainers train strictly and eat strict for years on end and dont get injured or end up abusing rec drugs?
what amazes me is that GB has so many people on it that immediately rule out the possibility of achieving mike's look.
this look that he has doesnt win him regional contests when up against obvious drug users, and he doesnt have the bunched up, bloated appearance, with speckled skin and distended stomach that so many others do.
yet he still doesnt suddenly get massive.
the more you look at it from an objective standpoint, the more evidence there is that he isnt a user.
that is, once you can get past the bias that you think it cant be done without gear.
that mentality was prevalent here at GB when GH15 was around. try hanging out with some totally natural guys who eat well and train hard and have good genetics and you'll be impressed how much size and shape is possible.
size, bfat and shape are NOT evidence of drug abuse unless they are accompanied by things like bitch tits, aggressive attitude, poor skin, palumboism, guts, abnormal skeletal size, large changes in bweight, water bloat, site scarring, admittance of use, more than minimal new muscle tissue each year. also, hair loss CAN be, but male hair loss is common so its not a smoking gun.
so whilst it is true that some guys who are admitted drug users also dont have many indicators, almost all of them had some of the indicators at one time or more.
the fact is that those who say he is a user, dont know. all it shows is that the person believes that what he has achieved isnt possible. and thats a reflection on themselves.
(http://i.imgur.com/leymwyW.png)
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Some rather thick and heavy make up on Piana'a face in that pic.
Spent some time getting makeup tips from Mike. I imagine his bathroom looks a lot like Donatella Versace's.
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on the flip side, to be objective, why is it so unbelievable that occassionally one or two freaks appear?
o'hearn has nothing of the tell tale signs of a drug abuser, and his physique hasnt changed very much for years.
how many weight trainers train strictly and eat strict for years on end and dont get injured or end up abusing rec drugs?
what amazes me is that GB has so many people on it that immediately rule out the possibility of achieving mike's look.
this look that he has doesnt win him regional contests when up against obvious drug users, and he doesnt have the bunched up, bloated appearance, with speckled skin and distended stomach that so many others do.
yet he still doesnt suddenly get massive.
the more you look at it from an objective standpoint, the more evidence there is that he isnt a user.
that is, once you can get past the bias that you think it cant be done without gear.
that mentality was prevalent here at GB when GH15 was around. try hanging out with some totally natural guys who eat well and train hard and have good genetics and you'll be impressed how much size and shape is possible.
size, bfat and shape are NOT evidence of drug abuse unless they are accompanied by things like bitch tits, aggressive attitude, poor skin, palumboism, guts, abnormal skeletal size, large changes in bweight, water bloat, site scarring, admittance of use, more than minimal new muscle tissue each year. also, hair loss CAN be, but male hair loss is common so its not a smoking gun.
so whilst it is true that some guys who are admitted drug users also dont have many indicators, almost all of them had some of the indicators at one time or more.
the fact is that those who say he is a user, dont know. all it shows is that the person believes that what he has achieved isnt possible. and thats a reflection on themselves.
It's 2016 and still posts like this are being made, by people who "have been around". It just never ends.
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It's 2016 and still posts like this are being made, by people who "have been around". It just never ends.
Delusion still runs deep in many, I'm amazed some on this board still cling onto fairy tales....he's what around 240+ ripped year round?
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Delusion still runs deep in many, I'm amazed some on this board still cling onto fairy tales....he's what around 240+ ripped year round?
One has to believe that fortunes in fart powder and supps were worth something...
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One has to believe that fortunes in fart powder and supps were worth something...
QFT. Natties that slave away, year after year, to look exactly the same need to believe that there is some metabolic-anabolic magic waiting out there on the GNC shelves to be discovered.
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QFT. Natties that slave away, year after year, to look exactly the same need to believe that there is some metabolic-anabolic magic waiting out there on the GNC shelves to be discovered.
If you do this more than a couple of years before the penny drops there is no hope for you...
You can be big and strong if your meant to be, natty
You can be small and ripped natty, you can be be somewhere in-between...
What you cant be is big and ripped, the Gh15 height to weight limits were pretty much spot on
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It's 2016 and still posts like this are being made, by people who "have been around". It just never ends.
"on the flip side, to be objective, why is it so unbelievable that occassionally one or two freaks appear?"
Disco Stu might have an argument if occasionally one or two of these freaks appear, but they never have...nor will they.
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If you do this more than a couple of years before the penny drops there is no hope for you...
You can be big and strong if your meant to be, natty
You can be small and ripped natty, you can be be somewhere in-between...
What you cant be is big and ripped, the Gh15 height to weight limits were pretty much spot on
This post sums it up nicely.