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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Straw Man on July 01, 2016, 09:31:28 AM
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This Billionaire Governor Taxed the Rich and Increased the Minimum Wage — Now, His State’s Economy Is One of the Best in the Country
The next time your right-wing family member or former high school classmate posts a status update or tweet about how taxing the rich or increasing workers’ wages kills jobs and makes businesses leave the state, I want you to send them this article.
When he took office in January of 2011, Minnesota governor Mark Dayton inherited a $6.2 billion budget deficit and a 7 percent unemployment rate from his predecessor, Tim Pawlenty, the soon-forgotten Republican candidate for the presidency who called himself Minnesota’s first true fiscally-conservative governor in modern history. Pawlenty prided himself on never raising state taxes — the most he ever did to generate new revenue was increase the tax on cigarettes by 75 cents a pack. Between 2003 and late 2010, when Pawlenty was at the head of Minnesota’s state government, he managed to add only 6,200 more jobs.
During his first four years in office, Gov. Dayton raised the state income tax from 7.85 to 9.85 percent on individuals earning over $150,000, and on couples earning over $250,000 when filing jointly — a tax increase of $2.1 billion. He’s also agreed to raise Minnesota’s minimum wage to $9.50 an hour by 2018, and passed a state law guaranteeing equal pay for women. Republicans like state representative Mark Uglem warned against Gov. Dayton’s tax increases, saying, “The job creators, the big corporations, the small corporations, they will leave. It’s all dollars and sense to them.” The conservative friend or family member you shared this article with would probably say the same if their governor tried something like this. But like Uglem, they would be proven wrong.
Between 2011 and 2015, Gov. Dayton added 172,000 new jobs to Minnesota’s economy — that’s 165,800 more jobs in Dayton’s first term than Pawlenty added in both of his terms combined. Even though Minnesota’s top income tax rate is the fourth highest in the country, it has the fifth lowest unemployment rate in the country at 3.6 percent. According to 2012-2013 U.S. census figures, Minnesotans had a median income that was $10,000 larger than the U.S. average, and their median income is still $8,000 more than the U.S. average today.
By late 2013, Minnesota’s private sector job growth exceeded pre-recession levels, and the state’s economy was the fifth fastest-growing in the United States. Forbes even ranked Minnesota the ninth best state for business (Scott Walker’s “Open For Business” Wisconsin came in at a distant #32 on the same list). Despite the fearmongering over businesses fleeing from Dayton’s tax cuts, 6,230 more Minnesotans filed in the top income tax bracket in 2013, just one year after Dayton’s tax increases went through. As of January 2015, Minnesota has a $1 billion budget surplus, and Gov. Dayton has pledged to reinvest more than one third of that money into public schools. And according to Gallup, Minnesota’s economic confidence is higher than any other state.
Gov. Dayton didn’t accomplish all of these reforms by shrewdly manipulating people — this article describes Dayton’s astonishing lack of charisma and articulateness. He isn’t a class warrior driven by a desire to get back at the 1 percent — Dayton is a billionaire heir to the Target fortune. It wasn’t just a majority in the legislature that forced him to do it — Dayton had to work with a Republican-controlled legislature for his first two years in office. And unlike his Republican neighbor to the east, Gov. Dayton didn’t assert his will over an unwilling populace by creating obstacles between the people and the vote — Dayton actually created an online voter registration system, making it easier than ever for people to register to vote.
The reason Gov. Dayton was able to radically transform Minnesota’s economy into one of the best in the nation is simple arithmetic. Raising taxes on those who can afford to pay more will turn a deficit into a surplus. Raising the minimum wage will increase the median income. And in a state where education is a budget priority and economic growth is one of the highest in the nation, it only makes sense that more businesses would stay.
It’s official — trickle-down economics is bunk. Minnesota has proven it once and for all. If you believe otherwise, you are wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-gibson/mark-dayton-minnesota-economy_b_6737786.html
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-gibson/mark-dayton-minnesota-economy_b_6737786.html
so go move there :-*
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Since his minimum wage increase doesn't go into effect until 2018, it's a bit early to start cheering. Every time the minimum wage rate is increased, low end jobs disappear. As for his "higher tax rate on the rich" goes, there are plenty of loop holes to keep the rich, including himself, rich. "Tax The Rich" has always been "show business" to sucker the poor into voting for democrats. Is that rich liberal supporter of Hillary, Warren Buffet, still paying less income tax, percentage wise, than his secretary?
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Seems exaggerated and misatributed
https://fee.org/articles/minnesota-mythbusting/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/apr/01/occupy-democrats/meme-touts-mark-daytons-economic-successes-minneso/
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Since his minimum wage increase doesn't go into effect until 2018, it's a bit early to start cheering. Every time the minimum wage rate is increased, low end jobs disappear. As for his "higher tax rate on the rich" goes, there are plenty of loop holes to keep the rich, including himself, rich. "Tax The Rich" has always been "show business" to sucker the poor into voting for democrats. Is that rich liberal supporter of Hillary, Warren Buffet, still paying less income tax, percentage wise, than his secretary?
every time eh?
LOL
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every time eh?
LOL
Our ruling
Occupy Democrats said that Minnesota "is creating jobs at a record pace, unemployment is at a historic low, median income is skyrocketing, and (the) state has a billion-dollar surplus." While Minnesota is doing well on several key economic measurements, its achievements do not qualify as a "record," "historic" or "skyrocketing." Only the meme’s budget surplus claim is correct. On balance, we rate the claim Half True.
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Seems exaggerated and misatributed
https://fee.org/articles/minnesota-mythbusting/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/apr/01/occupy-democrats/meme-touts-mark-daytons-economic-successes-minneso/
any chance you actually read those links before you posted them?
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I did, politifact Rated their claims half true
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I did, politifact Rated their claims half true
which specific claim in the article I posted is half true
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every time eh?
LOL
YES, EVERY TIME! Most of the jobs at the lowest level of pay are provided by small businesses. When the cost of providing those jobs goes up, a lot of those jobs just disappear, as they were non-essential, and at increased cost, disposable.
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which specific claim in the article I posted is half true
Read the articles for yourself, apt of the benefits their claiming started before he made the changes they are attributed to.
Look I'm open to the concept of higher taxes helping the economy. Are you open to the concept that they can hurt the economy?
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YES, EVERY TIME! Most of the jobs at the lowest level of pay are provided by small businesses. When the cost of providing those jobs goes up, a lot of those jobs just disappear, as they were non-essential, and at increased cost disposable.
cool, then you should be able to provide an abundance of examples and there would also be no examples of minimum wage increase which did not result in job losses
have at it
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Read the articles for yourself, apt of the benefits their claiming started before he made the changes they are attributed to.
Look I'm open to the concept of higher taxes helping the economy. Are you open to the concept that they can hurt the economy?
I read my article and also your links (hint - I saw the links you posted before I posted the article)
you posted links that refute claims that don't appear in my article
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I read my article and also your links (hint - I saw the links you posted before I posted the article)
you posted links that refute claims that don't appear in my article
Actually they do again things like job creation were already on the rise before taxes were raised and the minimum wage hiked.
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Actually they do again things like job creation were already on the rise before taxes were raised and the minimum wage hiked.
the article I posted never claimed that the tax increases were the sole driver in all the increase in jobs...did it?
I thought tax increases were supposed to be job killers?
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the article I posted never claimed that the tax increases were the sole driver in all the increase in jobs...did it?
I thought tax increases were supposed to be job killers?
Lmfao so the argument is that higher taxes equals less jobs created, not higher taxes equals no jobs created.
I never said it claimed that but it does take credit for all the jobs created even though many of them were created before his reforms were implemented
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cool, then you should be able to provide an abundance of examples of there would be no examples of minimum wage increase which did not result in job losses
have at it
Obviously, you never studied the subject, nor ever provided any jobs to the economy. I'm not here to tutor you in the subject of economics, unless you want to pay for lessons, and then they will be expensive.
I'll give you one example. A small businessman, had a retail store. It was open 6AM to 8PM, and 6 to 5 on Saturdays. He had four employees, three part timers, before a minimum wage increase. They were employees who were there for his convenience. He'd open the store, an employee held down the fort, while he went out for a long breakfast and errand running. He'd stop back at the store, other part time employees would come and go, he'd take a long lunch, later a long dinner, visit here and there, throughout the day, but then the minimum wage increase came, and made him sit down a do the numbers.
When he realized what the employees were now costing him, he let the part timers go, put the full timer on part time, and spent more time in his store, and managed his time better. I guess you could say that government interference in the free market, for wages here, made him a much more efficient small businessman. Repeat that scenario tens of thousands of time, each time the minimum wage is increased, because it happens every time.
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Lmfao so the argument is that higher taxes equals less jobs created, not higher taxes equals no jobs created.
I never said it claimed that but it does take credit for all the jobs created even though many of them were created before his reforms were implemented
where does it say in the article that it takes credit for all jobs created?
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where does it say in the article that it takes credit for all jobs created?
Bc it cites and touts all jobs created during his tenure, not just the ones created after his reforms...
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Obviously, you never studied the subject, nor ever provided any jobs to the economy. I'm not here to tutor you in the subject of economics, unless you want to pay for lessons, and then they will be expensive.
I'll give you one example. A small businessman, had a retail store. It was open 6AM to 8PM, and 6 to 5 on Saturdays. He had four employees, three part timers, before a minimum wage increase. They were employees who were there for his convenience. He'd open the store, an employee held down the fort, while he went out for a long breakfast and errand running. He'd stop back at the store, other part time employees would come and go, he'd take a long lunch, later a long dinner, visit here and there, throughout the day, but then the minimum wage increase came, and made him sit down a do the numbers.
When he realized what the employees were now costing him, he let the part timers go, put the full timer on part time, and spent more time in his store, and managed his time better. I guess you could say that government interference in the free market, for wages here, made him a much more efficient small businessman. Repeat that scenario tens of thousands of time, each time the minimum wage is increased, because it happens every time.
I didn't ask you for an imaginary example of a single business
there are plenty of cities that have increased minimum wage and since EVERY TIME that happens the result is job losses just provide some links to data about those cities
should be a piece of cake since you can literally pick any city that has raised the minimum wage and be able to prove this and of course there would be no city that raised that mimimum wage that didn't experience job losses
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Bc it cites and touts all jobs created during his tenure, not just the ones created after his reforms...
and also claims that all increases were soley due to tax increases?
did I miss that part?
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and also claims that all increases were soley due to tax increases?
did I miss that part?
Lol the last bolded paragraph states he was able to transform the economy by raising taxes and hiking the min wage etc.
The economy was already transforming before he made those changes
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I didn't ask you for an imaginary example of a single business
there are plenty of cities that have increased minimum wage and since EVERY TIME that happens the result is job losses just provide some links to data about those cities
should be a piece of cake since you can literally pick any city that has raised the minimum wage and be able to prove this and of course there would be no city that raised that mimimum wage that didn't experience job losses
Hey! It was your dumb ass post citing the Huffington Post as a source. How about you cite sources, that state the unemployment rate stays the same, or employment, job growth, increases after minimum wage increases.
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and also claims that all increases were soley due to tax increases?
did I miss that part?
The minimum wage hike didn't go into effect until summer of 2014 and the tax hike of 2% went into effect in 2013. Why then would you count jobs created from 2011-2015?
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Like I said straw I'm open to the idea of higher taxes helping, it will undoubtedly cost jobs in certain companies but the overall increase may be bigger.
Using an example where they attribute job gains to actions taken after the jobs were created and comparing them to numbers where the economy had gone through one of the biggest recessions ever and was just starting to recover is not the way to make your point
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The minimum wage hike didn't go into effect until summer of 2014 and the tax hike of 2% went into effect in 2013. Why then would you count jobs created from 2011-2015?
I would guess it's because he took office in 2011
Obviously there was a general recovery underway but he also raised taxes (only on the most wealthy) and jobs didn't crater and people didnt' flee the state (both common claims when someone talks about tax increases)
Compare that to Kansas who cut taxes and saw massive revenue losses and no job gains
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Hey! It was your dumb ass post citing the Huffington Post as a source. How about you cite sources, that state the unemployment rate stays the same, or employment, job growth, increases after minimum wage increases.
You're the one that claimed that EVERY TIME minimum wages are raised it results in job losses
All I asked it that you provide some proof
By your own premise you can simply choose ANY city that has raised the minimum wage for a reference
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I would guess it's because he took office in 2011
Obviously there was a general recovery underway but he also raised taxes (only on the most wealthy) and jobs didn't crater and people didnt' flee the state (both common claims when someone talks about tax increases)
Compare that to Kansas who cut taxes and saw massive revenue losses and no job gains
From my fee link
"among Midwestern states ranked by job creation from March 2013–2014, Minnesota ranked dead last)."
Of course jobs didn't crator, we were in the middle of the recovery of the business cycle!!!
How many jobs were created after he instituted his reforms?
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You're the one that claimed that EVERY TIME minimum wages are raised it results in job losses
All I asked it that you provide some proof
By your own premise you can simply choose ANY city that has raised the minimum wage for a reference
http://nypost.com/2016/03/12/how-the-15-wage-is-already-killing-seattle-jobs/
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From my fee link
"among Midwestern states ranked by job creation from March 2013–2014, Minnesota ranked dead last)."
Of course jobs didn't crator, we were in the middle of the recovery of the business cycle!!!
How many jobs were created after he instituted his reforms?
interesting quote and even more interesting editing
why did you leave off the beginning of the sentence
(Speaking of cherry-picked statistics, among Midwestern states ranked by job creation from March 2013–2014, Minnesota ranked dead last).
Why cherry pick just a single year - even the author of your ariticle pointed out that's what he was doing
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interesting quote and even more interesting editing
why did you leave off the beginning of the sentence
(Speaking of cherry-picked statistics, among Midwestern states ranked by job creation from March 2013–2014, Minnesota ranked dead last).
Why cherry pick just a single year - even the author of your ariticle pointed out that's what he was doing
Lol wait now you're upset? It doesn't upset you that the article you posted is taking credit for jobs that were created before the reforms?
That number is much more relevant than the number of jobs created between 2011-2015 bc it starts closer to when the reforms were instituted....that number is relevant the number of jobs created between 2011-2015 is not
Again how many jobs were created after his reforms were put in place?
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http://nypost.com/2016/03/12/how-the-15-wage-is-already-killing-seattle-jobs/
I was wondering when you were going to get around to mentioning Seattle
Why didn't you choose one of the many articles that say it's too early to tell or ones that say empirical data shows no signficant impact
There are many of those to choose from
Here is one example: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/economy/a-year-in-the-sky-is-not-falling-from-seattles-minimum-wage-hike/
Only a year into Seattle’s journey toward a $15 minimum wage, local economists tracking the impacts say it’s too early to make conclusions about how the city’s minimum-wage “experiment” is going, but so far, critics’ dire predictions of mass job loss have not come true.
“The sky is not falling,” said Jacob Vigdor, Daniel J. Evans professor of Public Policy and Governance at the Evans School of Public Policy and Governance, who is leading a city-sponsored study on Seattle’s minimum wage. “If it was really bad, a lot of people would have lost their jobs and every opening would get tons of applicants. That is not happening.”
With only one year in and only an incremental uptick in wages, he said, it’s too early to predict the long-term impacts.
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Lol wait now you're upset? It doesn't upset you that the article you posted is taking credit for jobs that were created before the reforms?
That number is much more relevant than the number of jobs created between 2011-2015 bc it starts closer to when the reforms were instituted....that number is relevant the number of jobs created between 2011-2015 is not
Again how many jobs were created after his reforms were put in place?
Where did you get the idea I'm upset about anything
All I did was point out that you selectively edited your own quote where the author admits he cherry picked a data point
I've already said that the job claims started from January 2011 which was when the current governor took office and no doubt some of that was due to the general recovery happening throughout the country
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http://www.gallup.com/poll/188870/minnesota-top-state-job-creation-index.aspx
Minnesota was in the top 10 states for job creation since 2010 3 times...2012, 2013 and 2015.
So the majority of job growth came from before he instituted his reforms. Only 40k jobs added in 2015 and 19000 in 2014. The rest were created before he implemented all of his reforms
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Where did you get the idea I'm upset about anything
All I did was point out that you selectively edited your own quote where the author admits he cherry picked a data point
I've already said that the job claims started from January 2011 which was when the current governor took office and no doubt some of that was due to the general recovery happening throughout the country
Not some straw, the majority... Only 59000 were created in 2014-2015, that's a far cry from the 172,000 your article is attributing to his reforms
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What's that last line from fee?
Just because you jump out in front of a parade doesn't mean you're leading it...
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Where did you get the idea I'm upset about anything
All I did was point out that you selectively edited your own quote where the author admits he cherry picked a data point
Why did you leave out the part where the author says his cherry picking was in response to your articles cherry picking of facts?
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Straw taking a beating in this thread.
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I was wondering when you were going to get around to mentioning Seattle
Why didn't you choose one of the many articles that say it's too early to tell or ones that say empirical data shows no signficant impact
There are many of those to choose from
Here is one example: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/economy/a-year-in-the-sky-is-not-falling-from-seattles-minimum-wage-hike/
You're the one who said pick ANY CITY, so I did. I posted an article that told the truth, not one that is to the left of Lenin, that says wait and see, because the facts, the real numbers are abysmal, and will only get worse. It's not just job loss, but also the decline in the "jobs created" category. Seattle had a thriving used book
sector. I know for a fact that it has been decimated job wise. Owners trying to turn workers into "independent contractors," who work only on commission. The used book business ain't gonna pay out huge commissions, and former employees, now independent contractors, are looking to get more roomies, in an already tight rental market.
Caring people ruin everything. They don't have the mental capacity to comprehend the consequences of their emotional legislations.
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You're the one who said pick ANY CITY, so I did. I posted an article that told the truth, not one that is to the left of Lenin, that says wait and see, because the facts, the real numbers are abysmal, and will only get worse. It's not just job loss, but also the decline in the "jobs created" category. Seattle had a thriving used book
sector. I know for a fact that it has been decimated job wise. Owners trying to turn workers into "independent contractors," who work only on commission. The used book business ain't gonna pay out huge commissions, and former employees, now independent contractors, are looking to get more roomies, in an already tight rental market.
Caring people ruin everything. They don't have the mental capacity to comprehend the consequences of their emotional legislations.
You speak the truth. I've seen it happen. Wait till the new exempt employee minimum wage increase takes affect. A lot of people are going to see either a decrease in wages or lose their job altogether.
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As long as we're an open-border, deal-with China, sanctuary-city sorta place, this stuff you guys are arguing is about 100% meaningless.