Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: TK on September 18, 2017, 05:13:38 PM
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Oh boy
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So if you win at an NPC qualifier you are not given your pro card to compete in the IFBB? Or am I misunderstanding?
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Is this what they call a perpetual "shots fired" situation?
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Looks to me like Manion is trying to screw some NPC contest promoters out of giving out Pro cards. Am I understanding this correctly?
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Looks to me like Manion is trying to screw some NPC contest promoters out of giving out Pro cards. Am I understanding this correctly?
No, Manion is tired of Rafael Santoja and the IFBB amateur (the defacto international group)
Manion is screwing amateurs internationally. He claims that they can obtain pro status from the IFBB international tours. This is a farce. Manion has discounted the bodybuilding expertise of the entire international community.
The IFBB "pro league" (a term invented only about 15 years ago) was always a U.S. enterprise.
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Isn't the North American an IFBB show?
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Isn't the North American an IFBB show?
Yes, but, it's an NPC contest too? I was just there a couple of weeks ago for part of it. They gave out a 152 Pro cards. Manion was there, running around.
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Yes, but, it's an NPC contest too? I was just there a couple of weeks ago for part of it. They gave out a 152 Pro cards. Manion was there, running around.
So the name will change and that's about it.
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Here is Dave Palumbo's explanation. Sounds to me like a power struggle between Manion and the Raphael guy head of the IFBB.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
Also sounds like they'll have to come with some new names for the organizations.
I bet Joe and Ben would not be pleased.
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No, Manion is tired of Rafael Santoja and the IFBB amateur (the defacto international group)
Manion is screwing amateurs internationally. He claims that they can obtain pro status from the IFBB international tours.
This is a farce. Manion has discounted the bodybuilding expertise of the entire international community.
the IFBB "pro league" (a term invented only about 15 years ago) was always a U.S. enterprise.
Who owns the IFBB Pro League? So when the Pro League came into existence the all the Pro shows basically became the property of the Pro L.?
So in actuality the IFBB at least in the USA was killed off and Jim Manion and the PL started overseeing them?
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Isn't the North American an IFBB show?
the IFBB North American is afflicated with the IFBB in name only.
It has been under the auspices of the NPC for a long time.
The score cards and judges are all from NPC.
Basically Manion will not allow an international group to come to his jurisdiction and run the show, even if it is the IFBB.
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It has been long rumored that amateur athletes around the world, in order to get an IFBB Pro Card to compete in the IFBB Pro League, needed either to 'pay' up or have their countries representative approve it, and pay up. It is also rumored that at the IFBB Amateur championships, they entry fee given by the countries for the athletes are given to the IFBB Amateur organization, not the promoters.
Too often, competitors cannot turn pro even though they have won a lot of events in the NPC, because the country they were born in would not let them. These competitors also could not compete in any NPC show that could of given them a pro card.
This is about money, and fairness for these competitors, and these two presidents just could not come to terms.
The question is what happens to the Arnold Classic outside of the US, as well as other events.
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It has been long rumored that amateur athletes around the world, in order to get an IFBB Pro Card to compete in the IFBB Pro League, needed either to 'pay' up or have their countries representative approve it, and pay up. It is also rumored that at the IFBB Amateur championships, they entry fee given by the countries for the athletes are given to the IFBB Amateur organization, not the promoters.
Too often, competitors cannot turn pro even though they have won a lot of events in the NPC, because the country they were born in would not let them. These competitors also could not compete in any NPC show that could of given them a pro card. This is about money, and fairness for these competitors, and these two presidents just could not come to terms. The question is what happens to the Arnold Classic outside of the US, as well as other events.
There is just as much corruption outside the USA (IFBB amateur) as there inside the USA (NPC - Manion's). When you have many different foreign governments having a say in sports, this is inevitable. In the case of the NPC, you have a president for life who does things his way..
With regard to the International Arnolds, the IFBB pro league will hold amateur pro qualifying events as well. This is supposed to take the place of the IFBB amateur contents where international athletes used to turn pro - Dorian Yates, Milos Sarcev, JP Fux, Markus Ruhl, Ahmad Haidar, Big Ramy, etc....
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Now,after the insult of gifting the bubble gut Phil a 7th title and tying his record Arnold should split with Manion's IFBB Pro Legue and stay with Santoja's IFBB International and form another Pro League where he can do his Arnold Classics. Looks like Manion,Weinberger and co don't listen to his advises to penalise bottle shaped guts,so why stay with them?
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So now there is going to be two IFBB professional leagues?
Those pro contests with the pro qualifiers don't indicate they are going to be invite only because the memo says "will be open to ALL amateur athletes worldwide".
Wouldn't this make the pro contests far too long to have a pro qualifer amateur division AND a pro show on the same day?
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Yes, but, it's an NPC contest too? I was just there a couple of weeks ago for part of it. They gave out a 152 Pro cards. Manion was there, running around.
FFS....
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FFS....
I know, probably more in that one show that were given out in Europe in the last decade!
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Eric Weider gets to decide what is what. He inherited the whole thing from Ben Weider.
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From Robin Chang, and I agree with him...
Now that the 2017 Olympia Weekend is behind us, I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their support and address some of the rumors and lies that has been posted online.
The following are my opinions and in no way reflect those of the IFBB Professional League, the NPC and American Media, Inc.
* There is only ONE IFBB Professional League.
* The same IFBB Professional League that has sanctioned the Olympia Weekend and the Arnold Classics around the world the past 13 years.
* The same IFBB Professional League that has increased prize money for the athletes from $1.3 million in 2005 to $4.1 million in 2016
* The same IFBB Professional League that had 15 pro contests in 2005, and GREW THE SPORT to 108 pro contests worldwide in Asia, Australia, the Middle East, North America, South America, Africa and throughout Europe.
* The same IFBB Professional League with the sole authority to grant IFBB Professional League status to athletes and judges, and to sanction IFBB Professional League contests worldwide.
* The same IFBB Professional League that has helped hundreds of amateur athletes around the world turn pro, despite their National Federation’s effort to keep them as amateurs.
* The IFBB Professional League is the ONLY path to IFBB Pro status through its Pro Qualifiers. These Pro Qualifiers will be open to all amateur athletes from ANY organizations around the world. Amateur athletes are now free to compete wherever they wish without fear of penalty or suspension.
* The IFBB Professional League does NOT operate under an antiquated system with ridiculous rules, restrictions, and sanctions that no longer apply to the current competitive climate.
* The IFBB Professional League is NOT associated/affiliated with the IFBB, or its so-called “Elite Pro.”
Just as our founding fathers, Joe and Ben Weider entrusted me/AMI/David Pecker with the Olympia Weekend, they entrusted the IFBB Professional League and their legacy to Mr. Jim Manion.
Just a reminder...before the IFBB Professional League decided to separate itself from the IFBB, what did the IFBB offer their athletes? Ask yourself this, “ What is the IFBB offering you now WITHOUT the IFBB Professional League?"
This is an exciting time for ALL athletes involved in our beloved sport. Don’t let the lies and propaganda mislead you. If your dream is to turn professional and one day step on the Olympia stage, there’s only one choice, and that’s the IFBB PROFESSIONAL LEAGUE!
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Hey Ron, before the IFBB Pro League who was running the Olympia?
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It already has begun - NPC Musclecontest has and will go international - expect this to occur all over the world with promoters fed up with the IFBB Amateur tactics.
"Musclecontest International has 4 expos planned for 2018: Philippines, Brazil, India and Vietnam"
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So does anyone have any info on what the disagreements where between the IFBB professional league and the IFBB amateur league?
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It already has begun - NPC Musclecontest has and will go international - expect this to occur all over the world with promoters fed up with the IFBB Amateur tactics.
"Musclecontest International has 4 expos planned for 2018: Philippines, Brazil, India and Vietnam"
Yep you are correct. Now the NPC will go world wide and give out pro cards. Bob Chic is even promoting 3 shows next year in the UK giving out pro cards. It use to be very hard to get a pro card in the UK.
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Hey Ron, before the IFBB Pro League who was running the Olympia?
Wayne DeMilia on the behalf of the Weiders, I think.
Yep you are correct. Now the NPC will go world wide and give out pro cards
I am sure a lot of details will come out after the Arnold Europe and before the first pro show (I think San Marino). Looks like promoters around the world will start IFBB Pro League qualifier contests, as well as NPC promoters (aka Musclecontest). Competitors not born in the US want a chance to turn pro, and some countries made it very very hard for them to do so. This will give them their chances.
I know quite a few that should of turned pro, but could not because the country they were born in would not let them unless the paid, or competed in that country to get a pro card, even though they have lived in the US for years, or another country.
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Wayne DeMilia on the behalf of the Weiders, I think.
I am sure a lot of details will come out after the Arnold Europe and before the first pro show (I think San Marino). Looks like promoters around the world will start IFBB Pro League qualifier contests, as well as NPC promoters (aka Musclecontest). Competitors not born in the US want a chance to turn pro, and some countries made it very very hard for them to do so. This will give them their chances.
I know quite a few that should of turned pro, but could not because the country they were born in would not let them unless the paid, or competed in that country to get a pro card, even though they have lived in the US for years, or another country.
So I'm guess Eric Weider gave up control?
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Wayne DeMilia on the behalf of the Weiders, I think.
I am sure a lot of details will come out after the Arnold Europe and before the first pro show (I think San Marino). Looks like promoters around the world will start IFBB Pro League qualifier contests, as well as NPC promoters (aka Musclecontest). Competitors not born in the US want a chance to turn pro, and some countries made it very very hard for them to do so. This will give them their chances.
I know quite a few that should of turned pro, but could not because the country they were born in would not let them unless the paid, or competed in that country to get a pro card, even though they have lived in the US for years, or another country.
No, the IFBB made it very hard to do so, the overall mens winner at the UKBFF finals gets the chance to APPLY for a pro card, they don't just get one.
one per year. its nothing to do with the UK, its the IFBB that stop people becoming pro.
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Here's a thought on who this conflict affects the most: overseas top bodybuilders who either aspire to spend time in the US on green cards or illegally (or legally) to train at meccas here and compete in US pro shows and also top men who want to stay mainly in their own nations but compete at the top level in the US. USA competitors aren't affected at all; they are already fully under the NPC/IFBB umbrella. Conversely, international bodybuilders who don't aspire to live in US or compete in US shows aren't affected either; they will stay with their local promoters and local pro qualifiers and be happy to be Mr. Spain or Mr. Korea, etc. But what about the likes of Ramy, Ruhr, Yates, Wolf, Fux, Rockel, etc? More and more these days, these men are the top names in the sport, not guys from Tennessee or Nebraska, or New York. If this conflict persists, this may prove to be a HUGE pain in the neck for these competitors. These men could be punished along the way in their own localities for jumping ship, yet not really be fully desirous or legal to be 100% in US. Also, these guys may have built in loyalty to the promoters and sponsors who helped them along the way.
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THANKS, RON!!!
The information from ROBIN CHANG which you posted is the best info on this subject so far .... and I agree completely.
JIM MANION has done one hell of a good job since he took office.
And yet he will be subjected to ridicule simply doe to the fact that he is the individual who sits in the ruing chair ... and a good example of one who sits there can be seen in The Game of Thrones.
But to get back to the basics ... here is a bit of background that may or may not be interest to most GetBiggers.
Someone provide the precise date because I have forgotten ...
I think it was 1980 (I am bad when it comes to dates) .... the morning after GARY LEAONARD won the overall title .... when we held a meeting at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium to make a decision whether or not the NPC should join forces with the IFBB.
Ben and Joe were present and BEN WEIDER presented his side and offered the proposal that if the NPC would officially recognize the IFBB as the world governing body for professional competitive bodybuilding within the USA and for pro and amateur bodybuilding events outside of the USA .... the IFBB would recognize the NPC as the sole bodybuilding governing body for amateur bodybuilding events within the US ... and would not compete by promoting amateur bodybuilding contests within the US.
A vote was taken and Ben Weiders' proposal won.
Any corrections ??? WHAT WAS THE EXACT DATE THAT THE NPC BECAME OFFICIAL?????
There is a lot more to this story ...... but for the sake of briefly ......
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So I'm guess Eric Weider gave up control?
of the amateur ifbb?
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THANKS, RON!!!
The information from ROBIN CHANG which you posted is the best info on this subject so far .... and I agree completely.
JIM MANION has done one hell of a good job since he took office.
And yet he will be subjected to ridicule simply doe to the fact that he is the individual who sits in the ruing chair ... and a good example of one who sits there can be seen in The Game of Thrones.
But to get back to the basics ... here is a bit of background that may or may not be interest to most GetBiggers.
Someone provide the precise date because I have forgotten ...
I think it was 1980 (I am bad when it comes to dates) .... the morning after GARY LEAONARD won the overall title .... when we held a meeting at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium to make a decision whether or not the NPC should join forces with the IFBB.
Ben and Joe were present and BEN WEIDER presented his side and offered the proposal that if the NPC would officially recognize the IFBB as the world governing body for professional competitive bodybuilding within the USA and for pro and amateur bodybuilding events outside of the USA .... the IFBB would recognize the NPC as the sole bodybuilding governing body for amateur bodybuilding events within the US ... and would not compete by promoting amateur bodybuilding contests within the US.
A vote was taken and Ben Weiders' proposal won.
Any corrections ??? WHAT WAS THE EXACT DATE THAT THE NPC BECAME OFFICIAL?????
There is a lot more to this story ...... but for the sake of briefly ......
Gary Leonard won the Mr. America in 1980 but I think it was still the AAU back then. As I remember it, the IFBB was trying for years to affiliate with the AAU but some of the old school members of the AAU opposed the merger. Both organizations even went to court over the ownership of the Mr. America title. The court ruled in the favor of the AAU. The NPC finally began in 1982 and that was the official amateur sanctioning body of the U.S.A for the IFBB. So, the NPC became official in 1982.
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What happens if the IFBB decides to hold competitions in the USA, essentially going against the NPC?
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This talk about Arnold going with IFBB international isn't possible as long as he wants pros to compete at the Arnold Classics. These guys pay for their pro card every year, to Manion's IFBB Pro League. They can't compete anywhere else. When people talk about the IFBB, they are usually talking about IFBB Pros, not the amature federation that is every bit as corrupt as the NPC. Rafael Santonja was stupid to cross Jim Manion.
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What a mess. No doubt caused by the increased revenue possible in contests with so many new popular divisions.
I didn't like that Ben Weider was the life president of the IFBB. Likewise, how can Manion be removed? If not then this is only a business. He doesn't have to listen to anyone.
Who is responsible for the pathetic judging system used in the NPC? Are they ever going to change that? Nope. There is no transparency. Results do not show what each judge voted for.
I doubt I would support any organization that had Steve Weinberger involved with the judging. I well remember how he once offered to fight those who booed him at a contest.
He is nothing but a stooge and patsy for Manion. They can cleverly control who wins their contests by things such as call outs. The rounds system allows for 'corrections' to be made.
After each Olympia is a feeling of dissatisfaction. Results are accepted eventually but people forget all the controversies.
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* The IFBB Professional League does NOT operate under an antiquated system with ridiculous rules, restrictions, and sanctions that no longer apply to the current competitive climate.
So competitors are free to compete in other federations and return?
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THANKS, RON!!!
The information from ROBIN CHANG which you posted is the best info on this subject so far .... and I agree completely.
JIM MANION has done one hell of a good job since he took office.
And yet he will be subjected to ridicule simply doe to the fact that he is the individual who sits in the ruing chair ... and a good example of one who sits there can be seen in The Game of Thrones.
But to get back to the basics ... here is a bit of background that may or may not be interest to most GetBiggers.
Someone provide the precise date because I have forgotten ...
I think it was 1980 (I am bad when it comes to dates) .... the morning after GARY LEAONARD won the overall title .... when we held a meeting at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium to make a decision whether or not the NPC should join forces with the IFBB.
Ben and Joe were present and BEN WEIDER presented his side and offered the proposal that if the NPC would officially recognize the IFBB as the world governing body for professional competitive bodybuilding within the USA and for pro and amateur bodybuilding events outside of the USA .... the IFBB would recognize the NPC as the sole bodybuilding governing body for amateur bodybuilding events within the US ... and would not compete by promoting amateur bodybuilding contests within the US.
A vote was taken and Ben Weiders' proposal won.
Any corrections ??? WHAT WAS THE EXACT DATE THAT THE NPC BECAME OFFICIAL?????
There is a lot more to this story ...... but for the sake of briefly ......
Leonard won the AAU Mr. America on Sept 6, 1980 in Santa Monica.
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Bodybuilding seems to be growing. Urology clinics have a promissing future.
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This board has been pretty damn quiet when it comes to what’s up and what’s been happening regarding the situation that occurred during the 2017 Olympia weekend when Rafael S. terminated the IfBB’s association with the NPC and the IFBB Pro League.
I’m not an insider but here are some basic bits of information that may clarify this situation for those who are less familiar with it than I am.
I seldom take sides in matters like this but since I’ve known Jim Manion since the beginning and consider him to be doing a good job and since I have never really actually met Rafael S. outside of a simple nod of the head in passing, I find myself taking side with Jim and the IFBB Pro League over Rafael and the IFBB International.
So with that said …. Here is my ‘interpretation’ of what’s been going on and those whom have been doing it.
If anyone finds me to be in error or can elaborate with FACTS, please feel free to do so. It would be appreciated.
There are two sides involved within this situation:
The IFBB Pro League / NPC under the guidance of Jim Manion and the IFBB International (Elite?) League under the guidance of Rafael S.
All IFBB Pro League / NPC events promoted within the US will continue to march as in the past ….. meaning that there will be no noticeable change.
That part is simple to comprehend.
But now the IFBB Pro League / NPC will have to rely on ‘affiliates’ outside of the USA to promote IFBB Pro League sanctioned events which will be pro-qualifying events ….. and the IFBB Pro League will not accept any contender as a professional who turns pro as a result of obtaining his/her pro status within an IFBB International (Rafael) sanctioned event.
The above may get a bit confusing simply because both organizations are using the IFBB terminology which is apparently important to both sides.
So it will be interesting to see who these ‘affiliates’ will turn out to be as the affiliates who side with Jim will be personna non grata within the eyes of Rafael.
How loyal are these foreign IFBB promoters to Rafael S.?
And how loyal is Arnold? Will the world wide Arnold events choose to side with Jim or Rafael?
That's a good question.
One of the initial IFBB Pro League affiliates will be Bob Chick who will be promoting three IFBB Pro League sanctioned events in England.
And it is interesting to learn that Wayne Demillia wii side with Rafael S. and return to the IFBB as the IFBB International representative within the USA.
The loyalty aspects of this situation will prove to be interesting.
More to follow....
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The reality of it is no one here really cares. Ask yourself, how does this affect your "real" life beyond this board.
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This board has been pretty damn quiet when it comes to what’s up and what’s been happening regarding the situation that occurred during the 2017 Olympia weekend when Rafael S. terminated the IfBB’s association with the NPC and the IFBB Pro League.
I’m not an insider but here are some basic bits of information that may clarify this situation for those who are less familiar with it than I am.
I seldom take sides in matters like this but since I’ve known Jim Manion since the beginning and consider him to be doing a good job and since I have never really actually met Rafael S. outside of a simple nod of the head in passing, I find myself taking side with Jim and the IFBB Pro League over Rafael and the IFBB International.
So with that said …. Here is my ‘interpretation’ of what’s been going on and those whom have been doing it.
If anyone finds me to be in error or can elaborate with FACTS, please feel free to do so. It would be appreciated.
There are two sides involved within this situation:
The IFBB Pro League / NPC under the guidance of Jim Manion and the IFBB International (Elite?) League under the guidance of Rafael S.
All IFBB Pro League / NPC events promoted within the US will continue to march as in the past ….. meaning that there will be no noticeable change.
That part is simple to comprehend.
But now the IFBB Pro League / NPC will have to rely on ‘affiliates’ outside of the USA to promote IFBB Pro League sanctioned events which will be pro-qualifying events ….. and the IFBB Pro League will not accept any contender as a professional who turns pro as a result of obtaining his/her pro status within an IFBB International sanctioned event.
The above may get a bit confusing simply because both organizations are using the IFBB terminology which is apparently important to both sides.
So it will be interesting to see who these ‘affiliates’ will turn out to be as the affiliates why side with Jim will be personnel non grata within the eyes of Rafael.
How loyal are these foreign IFBB promoters to Rafael S.?
And how loyal is Arnold? Will the world wide Arnold events choose to side with Jim or Rafael?
That's a good question.
One of the initial IFBB Pro League affiliates will be Bob who will be promoting a couple of IFBB Pro League sanctioned events in England.
And it is interesting to learn that Wayne Demillia wii side with Rafael S. and return to the IFBB as the IFBB International representative within the USA.
The loyalty aspects of this situation will prove to be interesting.
More to follow....
I just completed a live interview with Wayne DeMilia, who has been brought in by Santoja to run the USA amateur division of the IFBB Pro Elite/Amateur. Lots of info regarding the Arnold Classic shows, TV, etc.
It will be posted to my YouTube channel (MuscleSportTV) soon once post-production editing is done. We have a studio, green screen, etc. and give a fuck about our appearance, unlike that bag of shit company Muscular Development I used to be employed at.
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Two facts.
- IFBB International has now a PRO level called IFBB ELITE PRO. The first event was celebrated in Helsinki (a former Pro League event) 6.000 euros in each division (Men´s Physique and Bikini) Dollars 7500 in each class.
- The famous IFBB Logo is with the real IFBB. The other was created after Pro Division fall
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The reality of it is no one here really cares. Ask yourself, how does this affect your "real" life beyond this board.
As said before, all this will have absolutely no impact within the United States. But it will cause confusion in other countries where many competitors, and some promoters, will be confused on what to do. If Manion hires some internationally savvy business guys, he may come through this successfully. But if he falls back on the likes of Winebergers and Chicherellos, etc., he will be in trouble.
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DISGUSTED, , I gotta disagree with ya and I do believe that a hell of a lot of people are interested regarding the process and the eventual outcome of this subject matter.
Although it has no effect on my personal life, I find it to be more interesting than who will be winning next years’s Olympia events.
I was one of the usual suspects who was involved in the decision making process when we made the initial association agreement with Joe and Ben Weider which became a vital part of competitive bodybuilding history … and I think that whats going on now is even of more importance to competitors and fans and others who are actively involved.
I think that we wil soon see that history does in fact repeat itself in one form or another.
Thanks, Dis, Stunt
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MPH, I don't know how much help that Chick and Wineberger will be able to provide in regions outside of the USA, but I do know that both are willing to be of assistance in any way possible and Bob is presently doing so by promoting sanctioned events in England.
But Jim will need a ton of a lot of help overseas ... so it will be interesting to see who comes to his assistance.
But it is my understanding that Rafael is pretty damn 'powerful' over there.
And I'd bet ya one-dollar to one of your doughnuts that the lawyers are licking their chops as we speak .... maybe even shit we know nothing about.
Thanks, MPH
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The reality of it is no one here really cares. Ask yourself, how does this affect your "real" life beyond this board.
do you think id have a shot in mens classic bb? :D
i guess one is 10 pounds lighter than the other
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The reality of it is no one here really cares. Ask yourself, how does this affect your "real" life beyond this board.
LOL exactly. This is like arguing between which organization better represents Ultimate Frisbee...
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JOE, Thanks! I just finished watching you initial report on your upcoming DeMillia interview.
If Arnold is allowed to have individual events sanctioned by both organizations, will that mean that other promoters can do likewise?
I think that there will be some serious legal discussions concerning that issue.
I have a gut feeling that he will choose one over the other exclusively eventually.
Looking forward to hearing thatWayne interview.
Did you realize that the name MR. AMERICA was registered for the exclusive use of a USA shirt manufacturing company at one time?
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DISGUSTED, , I gotta disagree with ya and I do believe that a hell of a lot of people are interested regarding the process and the eventual outcome of this subject matter.
Although it has no effect on my personal life, I find it to be more interesting than who will be winning next years’s Olympia events.
I was one of the usual suspects who was involved in the decision making process when we made the initial association agreement with Joe and Ben Weider which became a vital part of competitive bodybuilding history … and I think that whats going on now is even of more importance to competitors and fans and others who are actively involved.
I think that we wil soon see that history does in fact repeat itself in one form or another.
Thanks, Dis, Stunt
Me too. ;D
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DISGUSTED, , I gotta disagree with ya and I do believe that a hell of a lot of people are interested regarding the process and the eventual outcome of this subject matter.
Although it has no effect on my personal life, I find it to be more interesting than who will be winning next years’s Olympia events.
I was one of the usual suspects who was involved in the decision making process when we made the initial association agreement with Joe and Ben Weider which became a vital part of competitive bodybuilding history … and I think that whats going on now is even of more importance to competitors and fans and others who are actively involved.
I think that we wil soon see that history does in fact repeat itself in one form or another.
Thanks, Dis, Stunt
Just bout anything is. ;D
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Just bout anything is. ;D
brutal double quote
p.s. 15 just gave me this comp on 15.org, notice the last sentence 😎😉
Rambo!
straight out Rambo,,
im not kiding by the way,, but as I told you back in the day you need more lean poundage,, if you could add more kilograms.. about 5-10kg really that's all you need.. you will look amazing
gh15 approved
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brutal double quote
p.s. 15 just gave me this comp on 15.org, notice the last sentence 😎😉
Rambo!
straight out Rambo,,
im not kiding by the way,, but as I told you back in the day you need more lean poundage,, if you could add more kilograms.. about 5-10kg really that's all you need.. you will look amazing
gh15 approved
The question is why is it taking so long.
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The question is why is it taking so long.
good q
guess its cos as doc Blakley told me years ago "YOU are your own worst enemy"
meaning i sabatoge and fuck myself up regulary
i play around with shit that dont work for me like all orals and shit injects like mast, test, eq
the only compounds i respond to are 19-nors so i just gotta stay focused on them and not jump to other worthless shit
think ill be able to stick to deca for a good 12-20 weeks and that should bring me to fulfill gods predained destiny pour moi ie. ,, if you could add more kilograms.. about 5-10kg really that's all you need.. you will look amazing 😎
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good q
guess its cos as doc Blakley told me years ago "YOU are your own worst enemy"
meaning i sabatoge and fuck myself up regulary
i play around with shit that dont work for me like all orals and shit injects like mast, test, eq
the only compounds i respond to are 19-nors so i just gotta stay focused on them and not jump to other worthless shit
think ill be able to stick to deca for a good 12-20 weeks and that should bring me to fulfill gods predained destiny pour moi ie. ,, if you could add more kilograms.. about 5-10kg really that's all you need.. you will look amazing 😎
;D ::)
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;D ::)
at least i am honest
i guess i could put it better by saying the only compounds that i respond favorably too
someone on 15's site challanged me to run dbol @ 50 mg for 12 weeks and add 50 pounds to my bench from it and then come back and tell him i didnt get a favorable response
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at least i am honest
i guess i could put it better by saying the only compounds that i respond favorably too
someone on 15's site challanged me to run dbol @ 50 mg for 12 weeks and add 50 pounds to my bench from it and then come back and tell him i didnt get a favorable response
I suppose you ignored him as well...
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I suppose you ignored him as well...
how'd you know ;D
i dont follow, I..... LEAD😚
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DISGUSTED, , I gotta disagree with ya and I do believe that a hell of a lot of people are interested regarding the process and the eventual outcome of this subject matter.
Although it has no effect on my personal life, I find it to be more interesting than who will be winning next years’s Olympia events.
I was one of the usual suspects who was involved in the decision making process when we made the initial association agreement with Joe and Ben Weider which became a vital part of competitive bodybuilding history … and I think that whats going on now is even of more importance to competitors and fans and others who are actively involved.
I think that we wil soon see that history does in fact repeat itself in one form or another.
Thanks, Dis, Stunt
Cool!
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DISGUSTED, , I gotta disagree with ya and I do believe that a hell of a lot of people are interested regarding the process and the eventual outcome of this subject matter.
Although it has no effect on my personal life, I find it to be more interesting than who will be winning next years’s Olympia events.
I was one of the usual suspects who was involved in the decision making process when we made the initial association agreement with Joe and Ben Weider which became a vital part of competitive bodybuilding history … and I think that whats going on now is even of more importance to competitors and fans and others who are actively involved.
I think that we wil soon see that history does in fact repeat itself in one form or another.
Thanks, Dis, Stunt
Cool!
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Nothing is official here! And no one on the “inside” has contributed to anything mentioned below..
The following is just a collection of random thoughts regarding the possible outcomes of this present IFBB PRO vs IFBB INTERNATIONAL situation.
The principal players as of this moment are:
Jim Manion as President of the present IFBB Pro League and the NPC.
Rafael Santoja as President of the IFBB International .
Wayne DeMillia as the USA representative of IFBB International.
And …. Arnold who is involved with the promotion of worldwide IFBB events.
And possibly Lee Thompson.
The big question of the day is, “Who will Arnold decide to support??”
Jimi’s side? (Possibly.)
Rafael’s side? (Possibly)
Both sides? (Most unlikely)
And it is interesting to note that neither side will accept the other side’s athletes as professionally qualified for either side’s pro events.
This fact alone opens the door of opportunity for a promoter outside of both sides of the IFBB!
If such a promoter decided to promote a professional contest in which a pro’s affiliation with the IFBB Pro League or with the IFBB International was not a requirement.
It could be called “The Flat Earth Contest”.
Such a contest would allow the best of both organizations to compete as a group to decide who is the ultimate contender worldwide.
Here’s a wild guess but is it possible that Lee Thompson is thinking about this possibility already?
Any other possibilities out there?
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Once again ... No inside info here and one or more of you GetBiggers may be able to elaborate with more updated info ... but .... it is my understanding that Arnold will be associated with both Rafael (IFBB International) and Jim (IFBB Pro League) depending on the location in which one of his six world-wide events is held.
This may conflict with the NPC's statement/decision to only accept IFBB Pro League qualified professionals to compete in the IFBB Pro League Olympia events.
Or am I misunderstanding something here!?
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Someone like Arnold has the clout to play the middle. Very few competitors would be afraid to enter Arnold's shows for fear of retaliation, and would the IFBB Pro League stick to its guns and punish an Arnold International winner? Maybe. There is bound to be various levels of confusion and playing both sides everywhere in this. What may change the equation is if the US based IFBB truly starts fielding a lot of successful pro qualifiers around the world. That is exactly what they are attempting to do. Will these shows be broadly competitive and successful and in enough places? Who knows? Wayne D can offer a strong counterweight.
Lawyers aren't going to have much to do with it. Where are they going to argue their case? At the United Nations? Delaware?
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MPH, Thanks! Good response but here's my retaliation.
Arnold may have the 'clout' but when rules are established ... what's good for one ... is good for all.
One solution we may all be seeing is .....
1. The IFBB Pro League under the supervision of Jim Manion will make a big change and allow all IFBB International pro winners to enter the IFBB Pro League Olympia.
I honestly don't see that happening!
2. One or the other IFBB organizations may tell Arnold to make a decision one way or another to support the IFBB International or the IFBB Pro League ... but not both.
I hate to say it but #2 just might be the best solution.
And .....
I find your lawyer comment to be interesting, but I have no idea how an international incident such as this would be presented to a judge in a court of law.
But I do think that a good number of lawyers on all sides are presently involved... with most of them presently saying, "Just keep your mouth shut!" ... and getting a nice pay-day for that simple advice.
Thanks for your interest and intelligent comments, MPH.
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dim canyon
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So, under Solution 2 above, how exactly does one or the other side force Arnold to choose a side if he doesn't want to choose a side? Tell him he cannot rent a venue and hold a show in Spain? Declare that there will no longer be an Arnold Classic in Columbus, Ohio? Really? And not much lawyers can do about it. The only true method of control is allowing or banning specific competitors from specific shows. This can ultimately be a powerful factor. But also a nightmare to manage as well as a downer for competitors and fans with potential public relations consequences. Another factor: eventually Arnold and Manion and Santoja won't be around any more (all three over 70 or 65 for sure?). What future players?
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MPH, In response to your intelligent questions, here is my half-assed intelligent response…..
Q. How exactly does one or the other side force Arnold to choose a side if he doesn't want to choose a side?
A. One side or the other could just refuse to sanction his event. But I don’t think that either side wants to give up a good contest. It will be interesting to see how this works out.
Q. Who will replace Arnold, Manion, and Santoya upon their expiration date?
A. Good question but impossible for me even to make an intelligent guesstimate. But I’m sure that there are a few individuals anxiously waiting on the sidelines.
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Arnold played it perfectly and is supporting both side: Three shows with Raphael Santoja (Africa, Europe, South America) and two with Jim Manion (USA, Australia).
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Joe, With Arnold in the middle, I don't think he had any other option .... But has anyone on either side of the IFBB made an official announcement about this?
And will other event promoters be allowed to do likewise?
I assume that Arnold's IFBB International pro qualifying contenders will NOT be officially qualified to enter the OLYMPIA but will only be eligible to compete within the IFBB International's World Championships
I am not sure if the above is correct but if it is correct it opens
a door of opportunity for an outside promoter to initiate a contest in which the 'champions' within both IFBB organizations can compete against each other to determine who is the Best of the Best!
Could it be that such a contest will be initiated with the winner receiving a million dollar check all wrapped up in a plastic trophy?!
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dim canyon
lulz
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Judging by the lack of much response on Getbig it appears that 'nobody cares'.
Bodybuilding has become more popular = more profit. This fact is behind the power struggle.
Where is the sport? Where are the elections? Can Manion be removed?
The champion bodybuilders are sheep and never make any serious group decisions....thus, Manion and other businessmen can control them.
We will get more of the same crap because that is exactly what they and the fans deserve.
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It is conceivable that some off the US IFBB promoters might be worried about cutting off your nose to spite your face here. Pro shows in the big airport cities like NY, Chicago, Orlando get competitors flying in from a lot of different countries. Sometime a third to half the lineup in a given category are foreigners. If these competitors are banned all of a sudden, depth of competition (and registrations and profits) both will be impacted. On the other hand, most US promoters are loyalist to IFBB Pro League.
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Judging by the lack of much response on Getbig it appears that 'nobody cares'.
Bodybuilding has become more popular = more profit. This fact is behind the power struggle.
Where is the sport? Where are the elections? Can Manion be removed?
The champion bodybuilders are sheep and never make any serious group decisions....thus, Manion and other businessmen can control them.
We will get more of the same crap because that is exactly what they and the fans deserve.
This.
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Simple formula for IFBB haters: go to NABBA, INBA,WABBA,........................
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Joe, With Arnold in the middle, I don't think he had any other option .... But has anyone on either side of the IFBB made an official announcement about this?
And will other event promoters be allowed to do likewise?
I assume that Arnold's IFBB International pro qualifying contenders will NOT be officially qualified to enter the OLYMPIA but will only be eligible to compete within the IFBB International's World Championships
I am not sure if the above is correct but if it is correct it opens
a door of opportunity for an outside promoter to initiate a contest in which the 'champions' within both IFBB organizations can compete against each other to determine who is the Best of the Best!
Could it be that such a contest will be initiated with the winner receiving a million dollar check all wrapped up in a plastic trophy?!
Speaking of pro qualifying competitors, here's a question. Have they historically been able to use their IFBB International registration pro card to enter Pro League events or have they always had to pay for 2 pro card registrations? (and visa versa). If they could use either card in the past and now are told they need to buy two different pro cards both of which say IFBB Pro on them, they certainly won't understand. Those registrations are expensive!
With competitors gaining pro status right and left, sale of the pro cards is one important component of how these organizations make their money.
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MPH, You asked another interesting question but to the best of my knowledge a competitor has to earn his IFBB Pro Card by placing in an IFBB Pro Qualifying contest and cannot purchase an IFBB Pro card simply because he won an IFBB International contest …. but I have to ASSUME that prior to this IFBB/IFBB conflict …. those individuals who possessed an IFBB International Pro Card were eligible to enter the Olympia events.
Do you have any idea how much it cost to maintain an IFBB Pro Card each year and how many pros renew that card each year?
I'm guessing $300 per year but that figure could be wrong.
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MPH, You asked another interesting question but to the best of my knowledge a competitor has to earn his IFBB Pro Card by placing in an IFBB Pro Qualifying contest and cannot purchase an IFBB Pro card simply because he won an IFBB International contest …. but I have to ASSUME that prior to this IFBB/IFBB conflict …. those individuals who possessed an IFBB International Pro Card were eligible to enter the Olympia events.
Do you have any idea how much it cost to maintain an IFBB Pro Card each year and how many pros renew that card each year?
I'm guessing $300 per year but that figure could be wrong.
Forget this silly pro card bullshit. Just another way bodybuilders are controlled. They depend on promoters and contests to have a future. Early on they learn to NOT rock the boat or criticize the Pro League or IFBB.
To hell with the IFBB. Joe and Ben struggled for decades to control bodybuilding. They succeeded after Bob Hoffman and Oscar Heidenstam died.
Now look at the mess now that Joe and Ben are gone. A true circus with little or no regard for the welfare of professional bodybuilders.
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MPH, You asked another interesting question but to the best of my knowledge a competitor has to earn his IFBB Pro Card by placing in an IFBB Pro Qualifying contest and cannot purchase an IFBB Pro card simply because he won an IFBB International contest …. but I have to ASSUME that prior to this IFBB/IFBB conflict …. those individuals who possessed an IFBB International Pro Card were eligible to enter the Olympia events.
Do you have any idea how much it cost to maintain an IFBB Pro Card each year and how many pros renew that card each year?
I'm guessing $300 per year but that figure could be wrong.
So I guess you are saying that a competitor (let's say, for example, from the Czech Republic who tuned pro in the Czech Republic and registered pro status there) has always been required to purchase a second IFBB Pro card when he comes to the United States to compete in a pro contest here (let's say for example the New York Pro or the Chicago Wings of Strength. I wish we had a real live pro of this sort (like Osidil for example) on this Board to elaborate on this.
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I know for a fact this was not historically true the other way around. A friend who turned pro here in the US was able to compete in the European Grand Prix circuit using his US obtained Pro card. The spirit of my question is to keep focus on the athletes rather than organization politics.
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I know for a fact this was not historically true the other way around. A friend who turned pro here in the US was able to compete in the European Grand Prix circuit using his US obtained Pro card. The spirit of my question is to keep focus on the athletes rather than organization politics.
If you are really concerned about bodybuilders then why support the Pro Card nonsense? All these silly rules are designed to control competitors, nothing more or less. Do you understand this?
In Australia if you want to advance in the IFBB circus you have to deal with Paul Graham, life president. You see, bodybuilding truly sucks. The organizers, promoters and even advertisers control the sport.
Put this another way, how many professional bodybuilders make a living from the sport? That is why the Pro Cards are total nonsense. They aren't professionals because they don't make a living from it.
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Again, if IFBB make U >:( go to NABBA,WABBA,INBA or NAC & be ;D
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In Australia if you want to advance in the IFBB circus you have to deal with Paul Graham, life president. You see, bodybuilding truly sucks.
Here we go again , same old grumpy looser Basil.
WHO was stopping you to compete at the NABBA Mr.Universe 1975 ???
Where is gone UBBA , organization created in yours gym :P, ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
OBW, U accepted 5 blue stars 4 competing at the IFBB contest 43 years ago ::)
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Iron Cross you are one ignorant stooge. Billy Knight was with UBBA. We had a different organization.
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Iron Cross you are one ignorant stooge. Billy Knight was with UBBA. We had a different organization.
Hmmm , let me think: IFBB Mr.Australia 1975 or NABBA Mr.Universe 1975 ::) which title is more prestigious ???
;D
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MPH, NO …. I did not say that …… “A contender who tuned pro in the Czech Republic and registered (International) pro status there has always been required to purchase a second IFBB Pro card when he comes to the United States to compete in a pro contest here.”
And I don’t believe that an IFBB International pro can simply purchase an IFBB Pro League card.
Pro cards must be earned within and issued by the organization that sanctions the event in which pro cards are awarded.
A pro card cannot be purchased within either IFBB organization even if you are a pro in the other organization.
Has there been any official change or commentary regarding the above?
AND .... Up until now .... an IFBB pro card won outside of the USA was recognized by the IFBB here in the states.
But that has changed and due to this IFBB 'split' .... IFBB International pros will not be recognized by the IFBB pro League which sanctions the Olympia.
It should be interesting to see if the Arnold events held in conjunction with Santoyja's IFBB International are given any exceptions.
But Rafael S. just might not care less about IFBB Pro League contenders and just go ahead and allow them to enter IFBB International events.
This could eventually prove to be the smart move to take!
Think about that!
Any corrections ... pls advise.
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Your comments above, if accurate, confirm the suspicion that this "split" which may benefit the organizations themselves in one way or another (although even that may be doubtful) will impact the athletes operationally and be a pain in the neck (e.g., more registration expense, less choice of contests, and ending reciprocity for competitors to go between different parts of the world, which a lot of them do).
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The euro ifbb pros will obviously enter the pro league qualifying contests once they have won whatever ifbb shows are on offer.