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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: BEEFYHEAVYWEIGHT on November 04, 2017, 07:57:40 AM

Title: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: BEEFYHEAVYWEIGHT on November 04, 2017, 07:57:40 AM
Find it online for free and read. Just read it for the first time in my 35th year of training. Amazing stuff. This is the essence of his philosophy.  It is HIT at its purest and most efficient. Not the watered down Mentzer version...nor the pussy footing Ellington Darden version. This is 1970 and Jones immediately prior to training Casey Viator. Long read but fantastic. If his 1970 theories had stayed the bible of HIT.....many more would have benefited. It is higher sets but still low. Warmups. 3 days per week. Faster powerful rep speed. And not worrying about how many reps but training to crazy failure with cheating reps and partials added to the set. It is all out madness.Goid stuff from the original.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 04, 2017, 08:11:23 AM
honestly you dont have to work that fucking hard to make gains
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: BEEFYHEAVYWEIGHT on November 04, 2017, 08:16:01 AM
honestly you dont have to work that fucking hard to make gains
I agree with you. It is just one of many means. Some enjoy such all out effort. Some prefer long hours in gym. Both are valid.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Eric2 on November 04, 2017, 08:33:02 AM
honestly you dont have to work that fucking hard to make gains

Well.............if that's your stance. Why then are you boasting your use of Deca? Not trying to hate on you, however your posted picture reveals a build of a junior maybe senior in high school, and that's after using Deca?
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 04, 2017, 08:44:34 AM
Well.............if that's your stance. Why then are you boasting your use of Deca? Not trying to hate on you, however your posted picture reveals a build of a junior maybe senior in high school, and that's after using Deca?

been om deca just 3 weeks now, sbould i turn into superman in 3 weeks  ???

gained 3.5 kg so far and i will add another 5-6 kg over the next 3 weeks

FACT   8)
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Eric2 on November 04, 2017, 09:08:53 AM
been om deca just 3 weeks now, sbould i turn into superman in 3 weeks  ???

gained 3.5 kg so far and i will add another 5-6 kg over the next 3 weeks

FACT   8)

Well just from an observational standpoint. Your build does not reflect the use of real heavy compound multi joint movements in the gym. I can see you suffer from a light thin frame. Yet have you tried the approach of heavy compound movements? These exercises will beef you up really well if your motivated enough. Too many times a see guys going for the juice for their gaines before they find the right training program. I can tell by your build you lift weights, but your secondary muscle structure is thin and shows no sign of real trauma associated with heavy compound movements.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 04, 2017, 09:17:08 AM
Well just from an observational standpoint. Your build does not reflect the use of real heavy compound multi joint movements in the gym. I can see you suffer from a light thin frame. Yet have you tried the approach of heavy compound movements? These exercises will beef you up really well if your motivated enough. Too many times a see guys going for the juice for their gaines before they find the right training program. I can tell by your build you lift weights, but your secondary muscle structure is thin and shows no sign of real trauma associated with heavy compound movements.

i am literally obsessed with keeping a tiny slim narrow wasitline

so the only heavy compounds i would do are bench, behind neck press and weighed chins and dips

i do them from time to time but the vast majority of my focus is shaping exercises

I dont wanna wiegh more than 175-180

now im sitting @ a buck 68

these turds nowadays are 50 pounds heavier than bbs from the 70-80s

but 25 of that is in their guts and the rest is on thier legs back and delts

FUCK DAT NOISE :-X :-X
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: SOMEPARTS on November 04, 2017, 09:35:08 AM
i am literally obsessed with keeping a tiny slim narrow wasitline

so the only heavy compounds i would do are bench, behind neck press and weighed chins and dips

i do them from time to time but the vast majority of my focus is shaping exercises

I dont wanna wiegh more than 175-180

now im sitting @ a buck 68

these turds nowadays are 50 pounds heavier than bbs from the 70-80s

but 25 of that is in their guts and the rest is on thier legs back and delts

FUCK DAT NOISE :-X :-X


I had a girlfriend that didn't want to lift heavy because she was afraid it would make her look like a man. Is that what you are saying here?
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 04, 2017, 09:39:57 AM

I had a girlfriend that didn't want to lift heavy because she was afraid it would make her look like a man. Is that what you are saying here?

nope

its all about lines for me

V-torso with wide capped delts and a tiny narrow waist, full pecs and good arms
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Eulogy on November 04, 2017, 09:41:44 AM

I had a girlfriend that didn't want to lift heavy because she was afraid it would make her look like a man. Is that what you are saying here?

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 04, 2017, 09:46:07 AM
;D ;D ;D ;D

its painfully obvious he has a wide thick waist

whats it measure cheif? I bet well over 35 inches

mine is 29 inches at 6 foot tall 😎
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: SOMEPARTS on November 04, 2017, 09:48:59 AM
German volume training....clean and press, deads and squats for 3 months. Just going by your pics.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Eulogy on November 04, 2017, 09:49:43 AM
its painfully obvious he has a wide thick waist

whats it measure cheif? I bet well over 35 inches

mine is 29 inches at 6 foot tall 😎

From a BBing perspective my physique dominates you in every regard. Keep that in mind. :)
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: NotMrAverage on November 04, 2017, 09:54:41 AM
It must be from this style of training arnolds quote about casey viator came: if i would have to train that hard i would go back to austria and become a skier.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 04, 2017, 09:55:02 AM
From a BBing perspective my physique dominates you in every regard. Keep that in mind. :)

I was talking to your bf
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: NotMrAverage on November 04, 2017, 10:42:19 AM
Fella with 29 waist got an awesome one. I had i really tiny one in competition. 28 at 5.9 and 200. But that was in 2004...lol
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 04, 2017, 11:29:51 AM
Fella with 29 waist got an awesome one. I had i really tiny one in competition. 28 at 5.9 and 200. But that was in 2004...lol

28 inch waist @ 2 bills is very impressive
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: FREAKgeek on November 04, 2017, 04:37:58 PM
Funny with HIT guys is that they go on and on about how high volume and frequency is so destructive, but brief sessions of stubbornly adding the lbs every workout till you pass out, puke, or lay twitching on the floor is somehow joint friendly and beneficial.

The methods of training run the entire spectrum of conflicting ideologies, and you have self made pros from all of them. What they all share is the genes, drug use, and passion for it. That's what it boils down to.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 04, 2017, 04:52:12 PM
Funny with HIT guys is that they go on and on about how high volume and frequency is so destructive, but brief sessions of stubbornly adding the lbs every workout till you pass out, puke, or lay twitching on the floor is somehow joint friendly and beneficial.

The methods of training run the entire spectrum of conflicting ideologies, and you have self made pros from all of them. What they all share is the genes, drug use, and passion for it. That's what it boils down to.

did hit a long time

now i do volume

probably dont matter either way, coz....... ITS ALL DRUGS
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Never1AShow on November 04, 2017, 05:40:13 PM
been om deca just 3 weeks now, sbould i turn into superman in 3 weeks  ???

gained 3.5 kg so far and i will add another 5-6 kg over the next 3 weeks

FACT   8)

Weight yourself in pounds and you'll double your gains
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 04, 2017, 09:57:09 PM
Weight yourself in pounds and you'll double your gains

2.2 actually but what matters is pretty round muscles which i gots  8)
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Powerlift66 on November 05, 2017, 03:58:24 AM
I just sold both 1 and 2 (originals) for $400.00, people are nuts, I started the bidding at $50.00.
Never read 'em, I dont do Nautilus principles, though I love their original line of equipment.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: FREAKgeek on November 05, 2017, 03:59:36 AM
did hit a long time

now i do volume

probably dont matter either way, coz....... ITS ALL DRUGS

Was a big Jones, Mentzer, Leistner fan in the 1990s
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 05, 2017, 04:04:35 AM
Was a big Jones, Mentzer, Leistner fan in the 1990s

AJ circuit training was close to cross shit
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: BEEFYHEAVYWEIGHT on November 05, 2017, 07:08:22 AM
Was a big Jones, Mentzer, Leistner fan in the 1990s
Dr. Ken Leistner's stuff has always been great. He seems to have always practiced HIT as it was meant to be. Ken was and still is one of the hardest balls to the wall trainers there is.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: BEEFYHEAVYWEIGHT on November 05, 2017, 07:09:25 AM
AJ circuit training was close to cross shit
Arthur Jones HIT circuits are nothing at all like crossfit circuits in any way, shape or form.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: FREAKgeek on November 05, 2017, 07:15:51 AM
Dr. Ken Leistner's stuff has always been great. He seems to have always practiced HIT as it was meant to be. Ken was and still is one of the hardest balls to the wall trainers there is.

Yeah. Loved his training articles.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 05, 2017, 07:17:42 AM
Arthur Jones HIT circuits are nothing at all like crossfit circuits in any way, shape or form.

they are in the sense that both keep the heart rate jacked for a decent amount of time and gef you fit as fuck
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: FREAKgeek on November 05, 2017, 07:29:12 AM
Arthur Jones HIT circuits are nothing at all like crossfit circuits in any way, shape or form.

Yeah, still remember his battles with Kenneth Cooper:


Now, before somebody jumps to a wrong conclusion and assumes that I approve of either aerobic exercise or Kenneth Cooper, let me say that most aerobic-style exercises are worthless for any purpose, many of them are dangerous to the point of insanity and that Kenneth Cooper is a borderline idiot who knows less than nothing about productive exercise. Too strong, a rash statement? No, quite the contrary: in 1975, while I was conducting research at the U. S. Military Academy, West Point, Dr. Cooper sent two of his associates to West Point for the purpose of conducting an extensive battery of tests in order to evaluate the cardiovascular results of the exercises that our subjects were performing. But then, afterwards, Cooper was so surprised by the results that he not only refused to believe them but even refused to read them.

We had, in fact, produced far better results in six weeks than Cooper could have produced in six years, or even six decades; results so outstanding, by Cooper's standards, that he considered them impossible. Even though, I repeat, these results were measured by Cooper's own people, using testing protocols determined by Cooper himself. Outstanding degrees of cardiovascular improvement that were produced by very brief, but very hard, exercise performed using Nautilus machines, with no so-called aerobic exercise of any kind. Potential results that were ignored by Cooper at the time and still remain ignored, even unsuspected, by the vast majority of scientists even today.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: BSN on November 05, 2017, 07:32:53 AM
http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Bulletin1/Bulletin1.html
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 05, 2017, 07:54:43 AM
Cooper revised his advices after seeing cardio fiends getting cancer and heart disease with a healhty lifestyle of no smoking clean eating

he said this high amount of cardio was causing disease so he said train not more than 3 times a week for less than one hour for health
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: FREAKgeek on November 05, 2017, 08:00:11 AM
Cooper revised his advices after seeing cardio fiends getting cancer and heart disease with a healhty lifestyle of no smoking clean eating

he said this high amount of cardio was causing disease so he said train not more than 3 times a week for less than one hour for health

He first thought strength training had no merit whatsoever, that it was purely cosmetic. Now we know it reduces insulin resistance, boosts immunity, helps prevent osteoporosis, and other things. He was wrong.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 05, 2017, 08:08:12 AM
He first thought strength training had no merit whatsoever, that it was purely cosmetic. Now we know it reduces insulin resistance, boosts immunity, helps prevent osteoporosis, and other things. He was wrong.

i used to think that you needed cardio to get ripped, but i was wrong
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: BEEFYHEAVYWEIGHT on November 05, 2017, 09:46:41 AM
Interesting note....Clarence Bass says that the 2 biggest influences on his training since the mid 1970's were BOTH Arthur Jones and Dr. Ken Cooper. Jones for the HIT and. Cooper for turning him onto doing daily cardio on non-hit days.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Never1AShow on November 05, 2017, 09:58:12 AM
There is no such thing as "fitness" or training for "health".  Health is the absence of disease.  Everything else depends on your goals and what metrics you want to improve.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: FREAKgeek on November 05, 2017, 10:07:06 AM
There is no such thing as "fitness" or training for "health".  Health is the absence of disease.  Everything else depends on your goals and what metrics you want to improve.

That's not true. Being sedentary has been shown to be detrimental to one's health.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: SF1900 on November 05, 2017, 10:16:53 AM
There is no such thing as "fitness" or training for "health".  Health is the absence of disease.  Everything else depends on your goals and what metrics you want to improve.

Yes, health is the absence of disease, and research has shown that exercise drastically decreases the chance of getting  a disease/disorder.

As such, one indirectly trains for health by preventing diseases/disorders.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Never1AShow on November 05, 2017, 02:26:51 PM
Health is not something you train for or a goal to be reached, by that definition just doing anything no sedentary would be fine, like walking.  Walking isn't training.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: NelsonMuntz on November 05, 2017, 02:54:28 PM
did hit a long time

now i do volume

probably dont matter either way, coz....... ITS ALL DRUGS

if it is just all drugs then why don't you at least have a competitive physique for a novice Men's Physique competitor?

At certain levels drug use is a factor, even for people who don't compete.

But you don't even have that on or off gear so it comes down to laziness and/or not eating enough of the right foods for growth and recovery.

you are a good guy DJ but if you are going to make statements like that at least have the goods to show for it or STFU and let the adults talk
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: oldtimer1 on November 05, 2017, 04:06:43 PM
Cooper found that cardio was very important for health. Hell, it's important for the fighting arts. What he did find is after a certain point the health benefits level out and  extreme cardio can be unhealthy for some. He said if you are running more than 3 miles a day you are trying to improve your athletic ability and not your health.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: FREAKgeek on November 05, 2017, 04:09:42 PM
Health is not something you train for or a goal to be reached, by that definition just doing anything no sedentary would be fine, like walking.  Walking isn't training.

You know there are substantial studies on walking and health benefits. Sitting is the new smoking, man.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: oldtimer1 on November 05, 2017, 04:20:30 PM
Walk fast for 5 miles and tell me it's not exercise.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 05, 2017, 08:57:23 PM
if it is just all drugs then why don't you at least have a competitive physique for a novice Men's Physique competitor?

At certain levels drug use is a factor, even for people who don't compete.

But you don't even have that on or off gear so it comes down to laziness and/or not eating enough of the right foods for growth and recovery.

you are a good guy DJ but if you are going to make statements like that at least have the goods to show for it or STFU and let the adults talk

18 days apart

yeah no progress

sure thing

oh, and i will make even better progess over the next 18 days 😎
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: pellius on November 05, 2017, 10:36:09 PM
Yeah, still remember his battles with Kenneth Cooper:


Now, before somebody jumps to a wrong conclusion and assumes that I approve of either aerobic exercise or Kenneth Cooper, let me say that most aerobic-style exercises are worthless for any purpose, many of them are dangerous to the point of insanity and that Kenneth Cooper is a borderline idiot who knows less than nothing about productive exercise. Too strong, a rash statement? No, quite the contrary: in 1975, while I was conducting research at the U. S. Military Academy, West Point, Dr. Cooper sent two of his associates to West Point for the purpose of conducting an extensive battery of tests in order to evaluate the cardiovascular results of the exercises that our subjects were performing. But then, afterwards, Cooper was so surprised by the results that he not only refused to believe them but even refused to read them.

We had, in fact, produced far better results in six weeks than Cooper could have produced in six years, or even six decades; results so outstanding, by Cooper's standards, that he considered them impossible. Even though, I repeat, these results were measured by Cooper's own people, using testing protocols determined by Cooper himself. Outstanding degrees of cardiovascular improvement that were produced by very brief, but very hard, exercise performed using Nautilus machines, with no so-called aerobic exercise of any kind. Potential results that were ignored by Cooper at the time and still remain ignored, even unsuspected, by the vast majority of scientists even today.


LOL! Classic Jones! Just a brilliant man. I can't help but smile and shake my head that anybody can read his works and think that it was all a fraud and a gimmick to sell his equipment (which began the real advances in exercise equipment) and to squeeze in more training sessions to keep more cash flowing into personal training sessions. And those making those claims forget that during that time personal training was not a cash cow for anybody.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: oldtimer1 on November 06, 2017, 03:09:42 PM
18 days apart

yeah no progress

sure thing

oh, and i will make even better progess over the next 18 days 😎

Is that your body on steroids?
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: oldtimer1 on November 06, 2017, 03:24:32 PM
Cardio lowers risk factors toward ill health. If bodybuilders had to show their heart muscle in a contest they would train the hell out of it.

 The more cardio you do the lower your resting heart rate is. That shows your heart muscle is more efficient and stronger. Cardio lowers blood fat in the form of triglycerides. Cardio lowers visceral and subcutaneous fat. People can increase their HDL lipids  by doing regular cardio.  It can change the HDL to LDL ratio. Cardio increases red blood cells that carry oxygen.  It can lower high blood pressure. Cardio clearly lowers blood sugar in most. There are other risk factors it can lower. Guys that don't do any cardio are shocked at their lack of endurance when they box or grapple for the first time. I've seen bodybuilders after boxing 2 minutes can't keep their hands up due to exhaustion as the skinny boxers go to town on their their cosmetic opponent. 

Regarding Nautilus there was a good study that showed after 12 machines most trainers barely used 100 calories during their workout. Increasing cardio capacity was another failure. Apparently the spike in heart rate was too short to significantly increase cardio capability. Medical doctor Ken Cooper is a legend in exercise research concerning lowering risk factors from the lack of exercise. Of course genetics trump all. The other Ken is a chiropractor back cracker. Not a scientist.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Straw Man on November 06, 2017, 08:39:18 PM
Last sentence of Chapter 5 (out of 44)

"In practice, best results are usually produced by three weekly workouts of less than one and one-half hours each"

ok

this is how Arthur Jones sees the world

I'm not really sure there is any way to prove this claim is true or false

you can agree or disagree just like anything else

Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: pellius on November 06, 2017, 09:55:23 PM
Cardio lowers risk factors toward ill health. If bodybuilders had to show their heart muscle in a contest they would train the hell out of it.

 The more cardio you do the lower your resting heart rate is. That shows your heart muscle is more efficient and stronger. Cardio lowers blood fat in the form of triglycerides. Cardio lowers visceral and subcutaneous fat. People can increase their HDL lipids  by doing regular cardio.  It can change the HDL to LDL ratio. Cardio increases red blood cells that carry oxygen.  It can lower high blood pressure. Cardio clearly lowers blood sugar in most. There are other risk factors it can lower. Guys that don't do any cardio are shocked at their lack of endurance when they box or grapple for the first time. I've seen bodybuilders after boxing 2 minutes can't keep their hands up due to exhaustion as the skinny boxers go to town on their their cosmetic opponent. 

Regarding Nautilus there was a good study that showed after 12 machines most trainers barely used 100 calories during their workout. Increasing cardio capacity was another failure. Apparently the spike in heart rate was too short to significantly increase cardio capability. Medical doctor Ken Cooper is a legend in exercise research concerning lowering risk factors from the lack of exercise. Of course genetics trump all. The other Ken is a chiropractor back cracker. Not a scientist.

You bring up some excellent points that merits consideration and debate. One of the things Jones did for me, and many others, was to think and reconsider the various theories being promoted at the time, mainly through the muscle rags and bro science you would find at your local gym. With no internet and little, if any, serious books on the subject, this is all we had. Jones offered a different perspective backed up with logical (at least to him) arguments and real world experiments and left to the reader to think it through and ask himself, "Does this make sense?" That is what I would like to do here.

First off the blanket statement that "The more cardio you do the lower your resting heart rate is." is simply not true, and, so not true that I really don't want to argue the point much other than to say that any blanket statement that states "the more you do the better the results" just doesn't pan out in real life ever as diminishing returns, indeed, regressive returns, is always the end result when taken to it's logical conclusion. One can literally run himself into the ground and even to death when taken to extremes. But perhaps I am taking your claim too literally.

The heart operates more like an organ than a muscle, which we tend to associate with the class of skeletal muscles. Like organs and unlike muscles, it does not get stronger and more efficient with use any more than say your kidneys or liver and even your lungs. It gets worn out. The contractile force and the size of the heart is predetermined at birth. For the contractile force of the heart in general to increase and get stronger it has to get bigger, just like your biceps, and to some extent it does but only marginally so as it is limited to the size of your chest cavity. Just like your lungs. Your lungs can only get so large to increase oxygen volume but only marginally due to the limits of your rib cage size.

So though the heart, per se, doesn't increase much in strength and efficiency your cardiovascular system as a whole does. Increase size of arteries and veins, capillary and blood vessels, though individually is quite minute, taken in totality it makes a huge different. Blood and oxygen transfer, in addition to an increase in red blood cells, is vastly increased resulting in better conditioning and not the strength on your heart any more than the size of your lungs increase oxygen transfer.

Now, it is quite true that a bber will gas out in the ring when compared to a skinny boxer. But how will a boxer fare if required to squat his body weight? Can a 200lbs boxer squat 200lbs or even 150 pounds for fifty reps? I witnessed Benny Podda at 225lbs squat 315lbs for 50 reps. The average person can't do fifty reps in the squat with just his bodyweight. I would deem the chunky 5'5" Podda to be in pretty good condition compared to the average Joe and even the average athlete in regard to functional ability.

The point being is that I have found, both in personal experience and observation, is that your body is very activity specific. Meaning that extensive strength and conditioning in one activity is not proportionately transferable to another activity. We find this in strength training. At my best I was able to do 315lbs for six reps on the bench. I then stop benching for around nine months and instead did bench on a machine or used dumbbells instead. I increased the weight, and presumably strength, substantially on both movements but when I went back on the bench I could only squeak out 3 reps. Did I get weaker? I mean, my body weight was a bit higher and the weights I was using were greater in those nine months, yet my bench went down. Was I weaker or just "out of practice" in benching?

I had a training partner that I introduced to Jiu-Jitsu and I always considered him in superb physical shape as he was a marathon runner. At that time I felt marathon runners were the epitome of cardiovascular fitness. I mean, running 26 miles? At the time driving my car that distance I considered iffy.

Anyway, much to our surprised, this marathoner found himself gassing on the mat. He could not keep up with me. This was puzzling to both of us but at the time neither of us gave it much thought. We were on different schedules and didn't train much together but two years later we met up again. He was a much more formidable opponent this time around and his conditioning was superb and I found that I was one the dragging. We joke about the time two years earlier when he couldn't keep up with me despite being a marathon runner. He then told me that he gave up marathon running and there is no way now he could get through a marathon. He said he cut his running way back and nowadays even an 8 mile run was taxing. Yet he was tireless on the mat.

Did he lose cardiovascular conditioning or was he just out of practice running?

The legendary wrestler Dan Gable, know for his superb conditioning, was once asked what was the best exercise to improve one's wrestling condition. He replied, "Wrestling."

Perhaps there are other factors involved other than pure cardiovascular efficiency that determines one's stamina and condition as it pertains to a specific activity.   
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: pellius on November 06, 2017, 10:26:31 PM
Cardio lowers risk factors toward ill health. If bodybuilders had to show their heart muscle in a contest they would train the hell out of it.

 The more cardio you do the lower your resting heart rate is. That shows your heart muscle is more efficient and stronger. Cardio lowers blood fat in the form of triglycerides. Cardio lowers visceral and subcutaneous fat. People can increase their HDL lipids  by doing regular cardio.  It can change the HDL to LDL ratio. Cardio increases red blood cells that carry oxygen.  It can lower high blood pressure. Cardio clearly lowers blood sugar in most. There are other risk factors it can lower. Guys that don't do any cardio are shocked at their lack of endurance when they box or grapple for the first time. I've seen bodybuilders after boxing 2 minutes can't keep their hands up due to exhaustion as the skinny boxers go to town on their their cosmetic opponent. 

Regarding Nautilus there was a good study that showed after 12 machines most trainers barely used 100 calories during their workout. Increasing cardio capacity was another failure. Apparently the spike in heart rate was too short to significantly increase cardio capability. Medical doctor Ken Cooper is a legend in exercise research concerning lowering risk factors from the lack of exercise. Of course genetics trump all. The other Ken is a chiropractor back cracker. Not a scientist.

Also, I think it is important to clarify what Jones means when referring to "cardio" or "aerobic conditioning" at the time. Cardio, as used here, was defined to mean a separate activity involving low intensity and relatively long duration. This was contrasted with the primary anareobic activity associated with weight lifting. That being performing a set that takes anywhere from 10-25 seconds to complete and resting anywhere from a minute to three minutes. In other words, the resting/recovery stage exceeds the activity stage.

Jones' "Nautilus" protocol required one to train the muscles anaerobically and the body aerobically. In other words, just like circuit training, you keep moving. You train your muscles to failure, i.e. anaerobically and then move on immediately, or as much as your conditioning allows, to the next exercise. You improve both size and conditioning at the same time.

I ask you, if you took identical twins and had one do a 30 minute Nautilus circuit in the Nautilus fashion consisting of full range motion of pulling/pushing, bending/straightening, squatting/leg curling versus one who did 30 minutes of running or biking, which was the traditional cardio primarily done at that time, whom would be the better overall conditioned athlete in regard to strength, stamina, and flexibility; the primary factors in predicting one's athletic potential?

 I remember when I was first introduced to a pure Nautilus circuit back in 1978 along with some members of our football team, all athletes and regular lifters, we ended the 30-35 minute workout the same. On our backs sucking wind. 

I am hesitant to comment on the study you site regarding the 12 machines used and only 100 calories expended as no information was given regarding the intensity and duration of the workout but, and no offense intended, I do doubt the veracity of either the study or your recollection of it as the average 200lb man burns approximately 86 calories while asleep. Just 12 calories less than going through an entire 12 exercise routine in the traditional high intensity Nautilus style. With our football team we did only nine exercises and I would be quite surprised, as we laid there on our backs heaving for air, that we only expended an extra 12 calories than if we were asleep for an hour.

.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: pellius on November 06, 2017, 10:29:04 PM
Arthur Jones HIT circuits are nothing at all like crossfit circuits in any way, shape or form.

They are similar in the sense of high intensity circuit type training but everything else about Cross Fit Jones' would absolutely, positively despised. I would not be surprised if he were alive today that he would be leading an anti-Cross Fit movement.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: chess315 on November 06, 2017, 10:52:36 PM
Last sentence of Chapter 5 (out of 44)

"In practice, best results are usually produced by three weekly workouts of less than one and one-half hours each"

ok it may not be the truth but it pretty fucking close especially for drug free probably drug users also mariuz pudinowski trained that way maybe not a bodybuider but altogether one of the most empresive physical specimans he's ranked near 5th in heavyweights in mma right now

this is how Arthur Jones sees the world

I'm not really sure there is any way to prove this claim is true or false

you can agree or disagree just like anything else


Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: AusBB on November 07, 2017, 12:00:00 AM
Anyone that does HIT long enough ends up tearing shit.

People say HIT is good because of Dorian. I say the reason Dorian tore shit was cos if HIT.

Dorian would have been just as successful with his work ethic doing traditional volume sets without tearing shit.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: pellius on November 07, 2017, 02:16:16 AM
Anyone that does HIT long enough ends up tearing shit.

People say HIT is good because of Dorian. I say the reason Dorian tore shit was cos if HIT.

Dorian would have been just as successful with his work ethic doing traditional volume sets without tearing shit.

I don't think that is entirely accurate. I've been doing HIT in one form or another for almost 40 years never having a muscle tear. And most, if not everybody, associates HIT with the bbers Mike Mentzer and Casey Viator not Dorian Yates. Though Dorian incorporated many of the principles of HIT, primarily the emphasis on high intensity and reduced volume, even Mentzer said that Dorian didn't practice HIT espoused by him and Arthur Jones. I have no doubt Jones would go into a fit watching Dorian perform alternate dumbbell curls.

Also, more trainees have torn muscles doing volume than HIT but this has nothing to do with volume training but rather that more people incorporate that style of training. Injury/muscle tears occur when the tensile force imposed on the muscle exceeds the fibers capacity/ability to accommodate the load. This occurs not by intense training or even "heavy" training but by doing explosive movements. Ronnie Coleman and Branch Warren, both volume trainers when compared to HIT, are prime examples of using poor form and explosive movements and have paid dearly for it. One of the features of HIT is controlled movements especially in the eccentric/negative portion of the movement. It's the difference between velocity and acceleration. That is why you can sit comfortable going at 500 mph on a jet airplane whereas going from 0-30mph in one second will snap your head off. It's the difference between pushing your fist as hard as you can against a brick wall and punching it.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: FREAKgeek on November 07, 2017, 02:54:54 AM
Always liked the 20 rep squat and deadlift, in cycles, just not all the time.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Evo on November 07, 2017, 04:08:54 AM


i do them from time to time but the vast majority of my focus is shaping exercises


Oh dear...pray tell which exercises shape muscles....I really want triangular biceps...
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Evo on November 07, 2017, 04:15:44 AM
Always liked the 20 rep squat and deadlift, in cycles, just not all the time.

High reps is the key to tree trunk legs...
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: PJim on November 07, 2017, 04:40:59 AM
I don't think that is entirely accurate. I've been doing HIT in one form or another for almost 40 years never having a muscle tear. And most, if not everybody, associates HIT with the bbers Mike Mentzer and Casey Viator not Dorian Yates. Though Dorian incorporated many of the principles of HIT, primarily the emphasis on high intensity and reduced volume, even Mentzer said that Dorian didn't practice HIT espoused by him and Arthur Jones. I have no doubt Jones would go into a fit watching Dorian perform alternate dumbbell curls.

Also, more trainees have torn muscles doing volume than HIT but this has nothing to do with volume training but rather that more people incorporate that style of training. Injury/muscle tears occur when the tensile force imposed on the muscle exceeds the fibers capacity/ability to accommodate the load. This occurs not by intense training or even "heavy" training but by doing explosive movements. Ronnie Coleman and Branch Warren, both volume trainers when compared to HIT, are prime examples of using poor form and explosive movements and have paid dearly for it. One of the features of HIT is controlled movements especially in the eccentric/negative portion of the movement. It's the difference between velocity and acceleration. That is why you can sit comfortable going at 500 mph on a jet airplane whereas going from 0-30mph in one second will snap your head off. It's the difference between pushing your fist as hard as you can against a brick wall and punching it.

This. Try training like Dorian with that level of intensity with that many exercises that frequently  drug-free and you'll burn out, he still did way too much for a natural to recover from between workouts.
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 07, 2017, 05:02:34 AM
Oh dear...pray tell which exercises shape muscles....I really want triangular biceps...

did some pec shaping exercises before this pic 15

Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Evo on November 07, 2017, 05:07:46 AM
did some pec shaping exercises before this pic 15



No you upregulated MRNA via resistance training, ergo encouraging new cell growth providing all other bases are suitably covered.

There was no shaping going on, muscles have insertions and bellies, you got what you got....it can be made larger, but shaped....c'mon, you will be doing high reps for toning next man!
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 07, 2017, 05:11:16 AM
No you upregulated MRNA via resistance training, ergo encouraging new cell growth providing all other bases are suitably covered.

There was no shaping going on, muscles have insertions and bellies, you got what you got....it can be made larger, but shaped....c'mon, you will be doing high reps for toning next man!

so you are trying to tell me that rope overhead tri ext dont stress the long head better thab kickbacks?

or that hammer curls dont create more bicep width the concentration curls  ???
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Marty Champions on November 07, 2017, 05:11:54 AM
gains are easy when u eat meat u store all the heme iron in your muscles but more oxidation more aging .. u get the wasted old lean look like pellius and tim westcocks

Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Marty Champions on November 07, 2017, 05:14:11 AM
so you are trying to tell me that rope overhead tri ext dont stress the long head better thab kickbacks?

or that hammer curls dont create more bicep width the concentration curls  ???
isolations hit less strands of the muscle

compunds wake up everything
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Evo on November 07, 2017, 05:18:03 AM
so you are trying to tell me that rope overhead tri ext dont stress the long head better thab kickbacks?

or that hammer curls dont create more bicep width the concentration curls  ???

EMG test shows amounts of activation in muscles when completing exercises, some recruit more fibres than others, true.

However this doesnt mean that ones with lower muscle recruitment are shaping exercises, not mass builders - they may be less effective, but not differentiated from.

Tell you what, if you trained to all out failure, it wouldn't really matter what exercise you picked for such a small muscle group, it would all get worked to a degree.

I hardly do compound for triceps anymore, yet they still grow, not change shape!
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 07, 2017, 05:25:18 AM
EMG test shows amounts of activation in muscles when completing exercises, some recruit more fibres than others, true.

However this doesnt mean that ones with lower muscle recruitment are shaping exercises, not mass builders - they may be less effective, but not differentiated from.

Tell you what, if you trained to all out failure, it wouldn't really matter what exercise you picked for such a small muscle group, it would all get worked to a degree.

I hardly do compound for triceps anymore, yet they still grow, not change shape!

allright bro, thanks for the cool feedback

honestly i just like spending long time in the gym
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Evo on November 07, 2017, 05:36:22 AM
allright bro, thanks for the cool feedback

honestly i just like spending long time in the gym

I love training too....would go everyday if my body/work/life would allow.

But train smart...

Expending calories for the sake of it, when it will not translate into further muscle damage/growth, seems a bit retarded to me if you are trying to sculpt a physique...
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: FREAKgeek on November 07, 2017, 06:00:59 AM
High reps is the key to tree trunk legs...

Genetics and drugs are
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: dj181 on November 07, 2017, 06:03:05 AM
Genetics and drugs are

this
.
but it isnt just drugs, it is the right drugs for you

so you gotta experiment and see which ones work best for you
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: doggler on November 07, 2017, 06:28:47 AM
this
.
but it isnt just drugs, it is the right drugs for you

so you gotta experiment and see which ones work best for you


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Straw Man on November 09, 2017, 09:01:18 PM


if you follow it precisely it's actually very flexible

lift weights 3 times a week

that can be full body 3x or full body on one day plus an upper and lower body day (each bp 2x per week) or  upper  body lower body alternate ( avg of 1.5x per week) or any way you prefer to split up the body in three 1x per week

I'm good with 3 or 4 workouts per (weights only) per week




Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: pellius on November 09, 2017, 10:57:02 PM
isolations hit less strands of the muscle

compunds wake up everything

One of things that Jones has contributed vastly is making others think more about what is actually
going on during resistance training and how muscles function and spotting foolishness a mile away. But you're always going to find posts/comments like this. Claims with zero logical thought and nonsense/bro science terminology.

"Less strands of muscle". "Wake up everything."

Um, OK.

"Hey Tom, you do realize during that set you've still missed some strands of muscle and haven't woken everything up."


Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: Evo on November 10, 2017, 01:20:08 AM
One of things that Jones has contributed vastly is making others think more about what is actually
going on during resistance training and how muscles function and spotting foolishness a mile away. But you're always going to find posts/comments like this. Claims with zero logical thought and nonsense/bro science terminology.

"Less strands of muscle". "Wake up everything."

Um, OK.

"Hey Tom, you do realize during that set you've still missed some strands of muscle and haven't woken everything up."




I think people who spout this type of stuff are confused about EMG tests and muscle recruitment.

The EMG tests show how much of the muscle is activated by a particular exercise .  Training intensity is a totally different variable.

Interesting to see EMG tests on Platz doing the above...

Title: Re: Arthur Jones...Bulletin 1...1970
Post by: pellius on November 10, 2017, 02:28:18 PM
I think people who spout this type of stuff are confused about EMG tests and muscle recruitment.

The EMG tests show how much of the muscle is activated by a particular exercise .  Training intensity is a totally different variable.

Interesting to see EMG tests on Platz doing the above...



Excellent point!