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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Wiggs on May 12, 2019, 09:33:04 AM
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Dexter won an Olympia, multiple Arnold Classics and won every title in bodybuilding. He has never placed higher in a bodybuilding contest than Shawn Ray when going head to head. Olympia 99, 00 and 01. Ray placed 5, 4 and 4. Dexter placed 9, 9 and 8th. It wasn't until 2002 that Dexter broke top 6 and placed 4th. Where was Shawn? Retired.
Not only has Shawn placed higher head to head, it's for good reason, his physique is just better. It's more complete and aesthetically pleasing. To me Dexter and Shawn are like Ronnie and Flex...except in Shawn's case, he placed higher.
Take the best Dexter and the best Shawn and I'll go with the best Shawn any day.
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Dexter beats Shawn today.
Dexter beats Flex today.
Dexter beats Jay today.
Dexter beats Ronnie today.
Dexter beats Dorian today.
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I'm not too sure how he beats them today? They'd have to compete and they're not competing...so....
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I'm not too sure how he beats them today? They'd have to compete and they're not competing...so....
Yeah but you're comparing Dexter and Shawn's physique when they competed to Dexter after Shawn retired.
Dex and still top 10 in the sport. He's legitimately and competitively bodybuilding longer than any of the 90s pros. Winning an Olympia puts him in an elite level.
Did Shawn (or Flex and Kevin) have a better peak physique than peak physique Dexter? Almost certainly he did.
But the records and results say Dexter is the better bodybuilder.
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Yeah but you're comparing Dexter and Shawn's physique when they competed to Dexter after Shawn retired.
Dex and still top 10 in the sport. He's legitimately and competitively bodybuilding longer than any of the 90s pros. Winning an Olympia puts him in an elite level.
Did Shawn (or Flex and Kevin) have a better peak physique than peak physique Dexter? Almost certainly he did.
But the records and results say Dexter is the better bodybuilder.
That's all I wanted you to admit was that at their peaks, Shawn had a better physique. It me it's obvious and I've always thought this. Dexter is good but he was able to take advantage of an era was not very good compared to the one he came in.
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Shawn Ray was able to turn pro at age 21, and by age 25 he was top 3 at the Mr Olympia.
Dexter did not have the genetics to replicate Shawn’s rapid ascent.
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That's all I wanted you to admit was that at their peaks, Shawn had a better physique. It me it's obvious and I've always thought this. Dexter is good but he was able to take advantage of an era was not very good compared to the one he came in.
Agreed.
Its like Phil (or Rhoden) he is the best of his era but he would have only been a top competitor in the 90s.
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Shawn seemed to always seem like he was holding water and just not quite dialed in but he had awesome genetics to be a pro so young.
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Dexter won an Olympia, multiple Arnold Classics and won every title in bodybuilding. He has never placed higher in a bodybuilding contest than Shawn Ray when going head to head. Olympia 99, 00 and 01. Ray placed 5, 4 and 4. Dexter placed 9, 9 and 8th. It wasn't until 2002 that Dexter broke top 6 and placed 4th. Where was Shawn? Retired.
Not only has Shawn placed higher head to head, it's for good reason, his physique is just better. It's more complete and aesthetically pleasing. To me Dexter and Shawn are like Ronnie and Flex...except in Shawn's case, he placed higher.
Take the best Dexter and the best Shawn and I'll go with the best Shawn any day.
Dexters won what? 29 shows more than anyone in the history of bodybuilding including his 2008 Olympia win. He’s beaten pretty much everyone in the industry more than once. Next to Ronnie being the greatest Mr. Olympia we’ll ever see, Dexter is BY FAR the best on the planet
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Shawn should've been MrO when he was runner up to Dorian.
Yes Shawn is better bodybuilders then Dexter .
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Both great physiques
Each at their respective peak
Shawn’s Physique is that bit better
Though clearly dexter has won more
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i once went on a date and the girl asked me who i prefered, shawn or dexter
true story
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Shawn seemed to always seem like he was holding water and just not quite dialed in but he had awesome genetics to be a pro so young.
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With respect, I must disagree. Shawn was crazy shredded and bone dry for many years.
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With respect, I must disagree. Shawn was crazy shredded and bone dry for many years.
no need for respect, humble narcissist is something of a moron
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Shawn Ray was shredded in 93, 94, 95, 96.
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Dexters won what? 29 shows more than anyone in the history of bodybuilding including his 2008 Olympia win. He’s beaten pretty much everyone in the industry more than once. Next to Ronnie being the greatest Mr. Olympia we’ll ever see, Dexter is BY FAR the best on the planet
All this yet he lost head-to-head every time he went up against Shawn.
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All this yet he lost head-to-head every time he went up against Shawn.
I think The_Coach_Is_Back! is trying to say that Dexter is the Gordie Howe of bodybuilding.
In that sense, I agree - I never understood Gordie Howe's legacy as a child. His points per game average seemed rather...average.
Only years later did I realize that Howe was doing what he did at 50 - literally competitive against guys under half his age. And THAT is an amazing achievement.
Dexter is probably the best bodybuilder in that sense - longevity.
I would agree with you that Shawn at his best was better. Pictures may not tell the whole story. But my intuition tells me Shawn would edge him out for the reasons you stated. I'm taking nothing away from Dexter there. Both are among the best ever.
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I gotta` go with my man Wiggs on this one.
I`m a huge Shawn Ray fan and I feel he was slighted quite often at the Mr. O when he competed.
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peaked shawn ray vs peaked dexter
my vote is for shawn
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I think Dexter has a better structure and overall shape, But Shawn Ray was more complete and had better conditioning. But couldn't pick it.
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Shawn Ray better physique
Dexter better bodybuilder.
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2003 - 2015 dexter is much better than any version of dexter that shawn competed with
E
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Dexter won an Olympia, multiple Arnold Classics and won every title in bodybuilding. He has never placed higher in a bodybuilding contest than Shawn Ray when going head to head. Olympia 99, 00 and 01. Ray placed 5, 4 and 4. Dexter placed 9, 9 and 8th. It wasn't until 2002 that Dexter broke top 6 and placed 4th. Where was Shawn? Retired.
Not only has Shawn placed higher head to head, it's for good reason, his physique is just better. It's more complete and aesthetically pleasing. To me Dexter and Shawn are like Ronnie and Flex...except in Shawn's case, he placed higher.
Take the best Dexter and the best Shawn and I'll go with the best Shawn any day.
Physique wise and flow Shawn is superior, calves too
Bbing accomplishments dexter for sure, no contest
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Dexters won what? 29 shows more than anyone in the history of bodybuilding including his 2008 Olympia win. He’s beaten pretty much everyone in the industry more than once. Next to Ronnie being the greatest Mr. Olympia we’ll ever see, Dexter is BY FAR the best on the planet
Coming from a guy who thinks William Boner is better than prime Kevin Levrone
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That's all I wanted you to admit was that at their peaks, Shawn had a better physique. It me it's obvious and I've always thought this. Dexter is good but he was able to take advantage of an era was not very good compared to the one he came in.
At their peaks? Sean retired at his peak and never won an Olympia, Dex obviously wasn't at his peak when competing against Sean, he went on to win an Olympia title.
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Dexters won what? 29 shows more than anyone in the history of bodybuilding including his 2008 Olympia win. He’s beaten pretty much everyone in the industry more than once. Next to Ronnie being the greatest Mr. Olympia we’ll ever see, Dexter is BY FAR the best on the planet
You're goddamned right Coach! Dexter is mini Ronnie. In 2003 & 2004 I thought Dexter got fucked and should have been runner up to Ronnie both times. Shawn Ray was great but if we're being honest, he was narrower than Heath and smaller than Flex.
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Im a dexter fan as well think he regularly placed lower than he should have I also have him winning more than one olympia far better than cutler in my opinion.
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Dexter is in a class of his own. A living legend.
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Im a dexter fan as well think he regularly placed lower than he should have I also have him winning more than one olympia far better than cutler in my opinion.
2007 Victor vs 2008 dexter
Vic placed 2nd and arguably should have won in 07
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:D
(https://d2gauvmu0n8hol.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/muscle-camps-image3.jpg)
(https://www.evolutionofbodybuilding.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Shawn-Ray-Kevin-Levrone2.jpg)
Dexter faced easier competition, his longevity however is incredible
Shawn had flex, Dorian, Ronnie, Kevin, priest, Cormier, Nasser, all in their prime
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With respect, I must disagree. Shawn was crazy shredded and bone dry for many years.
Always looked smooth and blocky to me except for 1 year.
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no need for respect, humble narcissist is something of a moron
Coming from the moron who still believes protein powder builds muscles.
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:D
(https://d2gauvmu0n8hol.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/muscle-camps-image3.jpg)
(https://www.evolutionofbodybuilding.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Shawn-Ray-Kevin-Levrone2.jpg)
Dexter faced easier competition, his longevity however is incredible
Shawn had flex, Dorian, Ronnie, Kevin, priest, Cormier, Nasser, all in their prime
Great post Shawn faced way higher quality of competition in there prime than dexter did
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Coming from a guy who thinks William Boner is better than prime Kevin Levrone
Wow if that is true he is truly delusional
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Shawn has a narrower lower abdominal and does the vaccuum.
Dexter wins every pose otherwise.
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Shawn Ray better physique
Dexter better bodybuilder.
^ listen to getbig's wisest
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:D
(https://d2gauvmu0n8hol.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/muscle-camps-image3.jpg)
(https://www.evolutionofbodybuilding.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Shawn-Ray-Kevin-Levrone2.jpg)
Dexter faced easier competition, his longevity however is incredible
Shawn had flex, Dorian, Ronnie, Kevin, priest, Cormier, Nasser, all in their prime
Shawn also couldn't get hard over 212, which means he was a glorified 212 competitor in the open class in his prime. 212s don't win the open class olympia.
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Dex >
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Shawn also couldn't get hard over 212, which means he was a glorified 212 competitor in the open class in his prime. 212s don't win the open class olympia.
And flex wheeler looked his best at a wayyy lighter weight, 218, low 220’s??
That’s wrong with bbing, weight means shit, it’s how you look and carry it
Ronnie looked his best in the 240’s, 98 and 01 arnold classic
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Dex >
What did Shawn place and dexter place at that show? lol
Posting pics in favor of dexter
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Dex >
Ouch! Owned.
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Ouch! Owned.
Yes. Shawn is getting crushed in that pic.
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shawn looks better in the back double bi pic, but like i said shawn did not compete against the better versions of dexter
shawn looks better aesthetically, but dexter would place ahead of him
you guys say the competition is weaker today, phil from 2010 - 2014 or so would beat everybody except ronnie
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Dexter won an Olympia, multiple Arnold Classics and won every title in bodybuilding. He has never placed higher in a bodybuilding contest than Shawn Ray when going head to head. Olympia 99, 00 and 01. Ray placed 5, 4 and 4. Dexter placed 9, 9 and 8th. It wasn't until 2002 that Dexter broke top 6 and placed 4th. Where was Shawn? Retired.
Not only has Shawn placed higher head to head, it's for good reason, his physique is just better. It's more complete and aesthetically pleasing. To me Dexter and Shawn are like Ronnie and Flex...except in Shawn's case, he placed higher.
Take the best Dexter and the best Shawn and I'll go with the best Shawn any day.
Absolutely 100% agree.
So many bodybuilders look ugly, bloofy, blocky, and unpleasing no matter how shredded or conditioned they are (like 99.9% of the bodybuilders today).
The one thing Shawn had in spades was that his physique was incredibly pleasing to the eye, even if you weren't a fan of the sport.
It's a shame he never won the Olympia because I think he would've been a great ambassador to the 'sport' even more so than Flex because he had a much better tolerance to the drugs and could speak better than the others. Unfortunately the sport went to the freaks and he couldn't compare with that despite still being competitive with them.
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Shawn was arrogant enough without winning the Olympia. Imagine the asshole's ego if he had won it.
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shawn looks better in the back double bi pic, but like i said shawn did not compete against the better versions of dexter
shawn looks better aesthetically, but dexter would place ahead of him
you guys say the competition is weaker today, phil from 2010 - 2014 or so would beat everybody except ronnie
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True about Phil but he’s also a 7 time O winner, besides him, who was really dominant in this era? Branch, Cedric never gets in shape, freeman old, dexter declining big time now, washed up Vic, washed up jay, declining Wolfe, kuclo, mccarver dead, Compton health issues, Kai??
Certainly none of those maybe with the exception of Kai
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Ray was robbed in 1994 for sure.
Even Dorian's friend and fellow countryman, Bob Wollf, said Shawn "should've flown home with the Sandow."
Wollf wrote Dorian's book Blood & Guts.
That was also the year Laura Creavalle got robbed of a Ms. Olympia title against Lenda Murray.
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Ray was robbed in 1994 for sure.
Even Dorian's friend and fellow countryman, Bob Wollf, said Shawn "should've flown home with the Sandow."
Wollf wrote Dorian's book Blood & Guts.
That was also the year Laura Creavalle got robbed of a Ms. Olympia title against Lenda Murray.
No. Ray looked great from the front put looked pedestrian when compared with Yates back. Not even close, look at the pics from that contest. Better yet, watch the video.
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And flex wheeler looked his best at a wayyy lighter weight, 218, low 220’s??
That’s wrong with bbing, weight means shit, it’s how you look and carry it
Ronnie looked his best in the 240’s, 98 and 01 arnold classic
I actually think bodybuilding is trending back to that after for the last few Years Arnold complaining about the way bodybuilders were looking and wanting to see more “vacuum” shots and after last year, Rhoden winning. Your seeing better symmetry and less guts
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Ray was robbed in 1994 for sure.
Even Dorian's friend and fellow countryman, Bob Wollf, said Shawn "should've flown home with the Sandow."
Wollf wrote Dorian's book Blood & Guts.
That was also the year Laura Creavalle got robbed of a Ms. Olympia title against Lenda Murray.
If anything, Levrone should have won in 1994
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Dexter beats Shawn today.
Dexter beats Flex today.
Dexter beats Jay today.
Dexter beats Ronnie today.
Dexter beats Dorian today.
But he doesn't look better than any of them.
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No. Ray looked great from the front put looked pedestrian when compared with Yates back. Not even close, look at the pics from that contest. Better yet, watch the video.
Bullshit.
Ray's back and hamstrings never looked better.
Always had good calves.
Yates had torn bicep, torn quad, distended stomach and horrible blanched tan.
I have the DVD and the ESPN coverage. They used to do a one hour special every year back in the day. I have several.
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If anything, Levrone should have won in 1994
No.
Levrone looked better at the night show than prejudging.
And Ray out posed him. Ray won the posing round.
But I would have no objection if Kevin finished second with Yates in third.
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shawn looks better in the back double bi pic,
Strongly disagree. Dexter's back is much more aesthetic and symmetrical.
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Strongly disagree. Dexter's back is much more aesthetic and symmetrical.
Shawn also has a better nose and face than dexter
All homo
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Bullshit.
Ray's back and hamstrings never looked better.
Always had good calves.
Yates had torn bicep, torn quad, distended stomach and horrible blanched tan.
I have the DVD and the ESPN coverage. They used to do a one hour special every year back in the day. I have several.
Are you looking at the same pics I am? There is no way Ray beats Yates in those photos. The videos show an even bigger disparity. Ray was never close to beating Yates just like Labrada was never close to beating Haney.
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Labrada beat Haney in 89 and 90.
Labrada won the prejudging in Chicago in 1990, yet somehow lost the title.
It is like when Cutler won the prejudging in 2001 and yet lost the title to Coleman.
Judges said Coleman won the posedown when all he did was remove posing trucks to reveal red, white and blue posing trunks and then left the stage to pose in the crowd where the judges couldn't even see him. ::)
As to Ray and Yates, Dorian's back is superior but you don't win a contest because of one bodypart.
All around, Ray was the best bodybuilder on the stage that night.
Pose for pose and part for part, he was the better bodybuilder.
Dorian's best was 1993 in Atlanta at 256.
It was all downhill after that. He did bounce back from 94 to win in 95 though. Deservedly so.
Lost to Nasser in 97.
Dorian was great, but he should have only three Sandows.
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Labrada beat Haney in 89 and 90.
Labrada won the prejudging in Chicago in 1990, yet somehow lost the title.
It is like when Cutler won the prejudging in 2001 and yet lost the title to Coleman.
Judges said Coleman won the posedown when all he did was remove posing trucks to reveal red, white and blue posing trunks and then left the stage to pose in the crowd where the judges couldn't even see him. ::)
As to Ray and Yates, Dorian's back is superior but you don't win a contest because of one bodypart.
All around, Ray was the best bodybuilder on the stage that night.
Pose for pose and part for part, he was the better bodybuilder.
Dorian's best was 1993 in Atlanta at 256.
It was all downhill after that. He did bounce back from 94 to win in 95 though. Deservedly so.
Lost to Nasser in 97.
Dorian was great, but he should have only three Sandows.
I disagree with everything you said there.
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But I didn't lie about Labrada winning both rounds of the prejudging in 1990 and Cutler doing the same thing in 2001.
Those are statements of fact that can be looked up.
Just as it is with the subjectiveness of the sport, I think we have to agree to disagree.
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But I didn't lie about Labrada winning both rounds of the prejudging in 1990 and Cutler doing the same thing in 2001.
Those are statements of fact that can be looked up.
Just as it is with the subjectiveness of the sport, I think we have to agree to disagree.
On those 2 points you are correct & I agree it’s kinda odd that both
Went on to finish in 2nd place - Both should’ve Won & Deservedly So.
It makes no sense to go through the thorough judging rounds
Only to lose in a posedown.
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On those 2 points you are correct & I agree it’s kinda odd that both
Went on to finish in 2nd place - Both should’ve Won & Deservedly So.
It makes no sense to go through the thorough judging rounds
Only to lose in a posedown.
Labrada should have one
Ray should have one
Jay should have 2001
Victor should have 2007
Kai should have a few
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Labrada should have one
Ray should have one
Jay should have 2001
Victor should have 2007
Kai should have a few
Shoulda, woulda, coulda. If you want to win objectively don't compete in a subjective sport. Notice no one says such and such should have beaten Usain Bolt for the gold all those years he won them.
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Shoulda, woulda, coulda. If you want to win objectively don't compete in a subjective sport. Notice no one says such and such should have beaten Usain Bolt for the gold all those years he won them.
True - Very Good Point.
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I disagree with everything you said there.
So do I, Dorian never looked better or even close to 93 again but he was still better than everyone else, I attended a few of those olympias and it was daylight photos never did him justice, he was conditioned from head to toe, all guys including shawn ray looked noticeably less conditioned when hear him, but shawn ray was the ext best conditioned athlete for sure, Nasser nothing from the rear, leverone never found his 92 conditioning when he got heavier if he did and didn't tear the pec, he could have pushed Yates as he was complete but he didn't and was soft through the back where yates was his most detailed.
I think Dexter has more of an argument than anyone else over the years, maybe Labrador once, but again when he stood next to haney it wasn't close.
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Shoulda, woulda, coulda. If you want to win objectively don't compete in a subjective sport.
But the problem is the judging and the individual judges not being held accountable.
In the past, people like Shawn, Milos and Peter McGough have suggested ways to improve the judging.
1. Bring out each competitor first to do the individual mandatory poses.
Why?
So that young unknowns don't get lost in the shuffle and are denied callouts in favor of known names and not necessarily superior physiques.
Move the symmetry/comparisons to the second round.
2. Partitions should be used to separate the individual judges.
NO talking to each other. No looking at each other's sheets.
3. Have someone come down and collect the score sheets. Do not pass them down from judge to judge.
Easy enough to do. In fact, I would have someone there from the IFBB just watching the judges while they evaluate the contestants.
Who watches the Watchmen?
4. Different judges should be used for the four judging rounds: individual mandatories, symmetry, individual pose and posedown.
If not this, then at least a different judging panel for the night show.
5. Judges scorecards should be made available after the contests. They should be printed in the magazines and even be available online so that we know who thought what.
It's no different than evaluating an umpire or referee. A no-brainer.
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Who's better? Dorian or Ronnie?
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Tough call.
I never like them when they get too heavy.
Dorian was at his best in 1992 in Norway and 1993 in Atlanta.
Atlanta 1
Norway 2
Ronnie was at his best in 1998 in New York and 1999 in Las Vegas.
1999 Las Vegas
1998 New York
He was bigger in 1999, but he was not as dry and defined.
Delts were improved and calves were improved. And he got the gyno removed from his nipple.
To me, he goes downhill after that year. Well, maybe after 2000.
So you would have to take 1993 Dorian vs. 1999 Ronnie and go from there.
It would come down to conditioning and presentation of physique. Who peaked better on that day... and night.
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But the problem is the judging and the individual judges not being held accountable.
In the past, people like Shawn, Milos and Peter McGough have suggested ways to improve the judging.
1. Bring out each competitor first to do the individual mandatory poses.
Why?
So that young unknowns don't get lost in the shuffle and are denied callouts in favor of known names and not necessarily superior physiques.
1, Good Idea - This should be implemented
Move the symmetry/comparisons to the second round.
2. Partitions should be used to separate the individual judges.
NO talking to each other. No looking at each other's sheets.
3. Have someone come down and collect the score sheets. Do not pass them down from judge to judge.
2, Again Agree.
Easy enough to do. In fact, I would have someone there from the IFBB just watching the judges while they evaluate the contestants.
Who watches the Watchmen?
4. Different judges should be used for the four judging rounds: individual mandatories, symmetry, individual pose and posedown.
If not this, then at least a different judging panel for the night show.
3, Another great idea - Only there aren’t enough judges.
Everyone wants to judge the shows just not want to be a judge.
5. Judges scorecards should be made available after the contests. They should be printed in the magazines and even be available online so that we know who thought what.
4, At the NABBA shows I judge they are - I also make notes on the bodybuilders physiques where
Possible / time permitting.
It's no different than evaluating an umpire or referee. A no-brainer.
As I’ve indicated you’ve got some great points
The 2 constraints are The Time it will add / take as there are so many different
Classes now.
And The Number of Judges needed - So Few actually want to step up to be a judge
And be accountable- They just want to shout from the sidelines.
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So do I, Dorian never looked better or even close to 93 again but he was still better than everyone else, I attended a few of those olympias and it was daylight photos never did him justice, he was conditioned from head to toe, all guys including shawn ray looked noticeably less conditioned when hear him, but shawn ray was the ext best conditioned athlete for sure, Nasser nothing from the rear, leverone never found his 92 conditioning when he got heavier if he did and didn't tear the pec, he could have pushed Yates as he was complete but he didn't and was soft through the back where yates was his most detailed.
I think Dexter has more of an argument than anyone else over the years, maybe Labrador once, but again when he stood next to haney it wasn't close.
Still photos do not do justice to Yates or Haney. When people were there live (like you) or watching a video of the event it is clear it was not close. The judging was screwed up by having competitors win in prejudging and posing and then lose the contest but that is the IFBB, a horribly run organization.
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Dex >
Dex - lat spread
Shawn - back double
Dexter outweighed Shawn by 25lbs at most at both their peaks. But that's not a problem. Shawn routinely beat people larger with his overall appearance, tie ins, separation, completeness, posing and general presentation.