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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Vince G, CSN MFT on June 20, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
FJB that’s what’s going on
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
Biden.
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You voted for this (probably)
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
How is this a surprise, Vince? Don’t you watch the markets daily ??? I thought you were a trader
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How is this a surprise, Vince? Don’t you watch the markets daily ??? I thought you were a trader
Yes i do watch the markets and i knew it was going to drop but not that much
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
99,992 bucks still aint bad
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FJB that’s what’s going on
Well, he better fucking get this shit straight. I work hard for my money dealing with asswipes then come home to run my businesses.
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Can you switch over to a money market fund?
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It's going to get worse.
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the dollar has been devalued
its never going to have the purchasing power it did just 1 year ago
i feel bad for poor people
even making 23 bucks melvin will always be poor
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I’m not surprised being you have no clue about anything
And why are you going into fidelity? You do know there is technology that allows you to use a computer or smart phone to see your account.
My 401 has been fine so not really understanding what the hell is your issue
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I’m not surprised being you have no clue about anything
And why are you going into fidelity? You do know there is technology that allows you to use a computer or smart phone to see your account.
My 401 has been fine so not really understanding what the hell is your issue
I access fidelity through Quicken 😂
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If you're not retiring soon and not going to move funds, it's best not to look at the 401k.
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I like what you're doing here Vince. Generating traffic.
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
Your 401K is directly pegged to the major indices.
The Dow Jones is down over 2,000 points since last month.
The Nasdaq is down over 700+ points since last month.
The S&P 500 is down by 300 points since last month.
Your 401K probably holds an even distribution throughout the major indices, as the markets go down unilaterally, so will the value of your 401K.
That's what's going on.
"1"
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Where have you been?
Aaron singermen has also been arrested and Jay cutler has defeated ronnie Coleman for his first Sandow.
Thanks for stating the obvious.
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There goes Dr. Goodrums billions.
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Wtf is 8k? That amount wouldn't have any effect on my life either way...can make that in a week mowing lawns and painting fences with Johnny falcon
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Yes i do watch the markets and i knew it was going to drop but not that much
The S&P index is down over 20% YTD in 116 trading days. That's a substantial move. People who don't even watch the markets know that by now. Less Worldstar, Vince!
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I access fidelity through Quicken 😂
ok!
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If you're not retiring soon and not going to move funds, it's best not to look at the 401k.
This. I told my broker to take me off his “don’t kill yourself” call list. It’ll come back if you’re young enough.
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Vince, with your trading endeavor wouldn't you know your 401K is getting smoked ? Or did you not know the extent of the damage which makes sense.
https://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=675166.msg9661749#msg9661749 (https://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=675166.msg9661749#msg9661749)
https://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=676244.msg9699259#msg9699259 (https://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=676244.msg9699259#msg9699259)
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The S&P index is down over 20% YTD in 116 trading days. That's a substantial move. People who don't even watch the markets know that by now. Less Worldstar, Vince!
So Vince had $40k to before the crash.
40x20%=8
Vince won't be retiring anytime soon.
Keep that part-time "Greeter" job at WallyMart, Vince.
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How do you lose 8K from $37.00?
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Vince will probably make more in reparations at this point.
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
My crypto portfolio is down by a lot more than 8k. It's down hundreds of thousands of dollars. Count yourself lucky. 8k is nothing.
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
Peanuts compared to what I’m down peanuts.
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How do you lose 8K from $37.00?
melvin always
tells
the
truth
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Financial twitter is calling a relief rally. You may only be down 4k next week and then down 16k by end of year.
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Financial twitter is calling a relief rally. You may only be down 4k next week and then down 16k by end of year.
it would be wise, at least for awhile to take money out of stocks and out of banks
they are going to tighten like a guy
millennials are fucked
they own jack shit, and do jack shit
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the dollar has been devalued
its never going to have the purchasing power it did just 1 year ago
i feel bad for poor people
even making 23 bucks melvin will always be poor
I may drive some old cars, i may live in a singlewide, i may not have brand name clothes like Gucci or Cartier, i may not own a Rolex, and i may have a lousy job but as long as i got my friends to hang out with, my family, and course my fanbase...its all good
And I'm a Getbig Pwning Machine....Other than Onlyme , nobody has come close to taking me out. You cry and meltdown at the mods...Keith never did cried to the mods, meltdown like a bitch, or lash out at others....me and him just kept throwing boulders back and forth at each other 24/7 for years, went after each others families, etc. You are no Keith Jones my friend...you don't have what it takes, you simply don't have the ruthless aggression that he had. You're just another ant that i choose not to even squash on the sidewalk.
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
8k should be well worth ending racism thanks to joe biden, right vince?
E
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I may drive some old cars, i may live in a singlewide, i may not have brand name clothes like Gucci or Cartier, i may not own a Rolex, and i may have a lousy job but as long as i got my friends to hang out with, my family, and course my fanbase...its all good
And I'm a Getbig Pwning Machine....Other than Onlyme , nobody has come close to taking me out. You cry and meltdown at the mods...Keith never did cried to the mods, meltdown like a bitch, or lash out at others....me and him just kept throwing boulders back and forth at each other 24/7 for years, went after each others families, etc. You are no Keith Jones my friend...you don't have what it takes, you simply don't have the ruthless aggression that he had. You're just another ant that i choose not to even squash on the sidewalk.
Vince who from your fan base do you hang out with?
Also are any of your fans crossovers from your wrestling days?
And don’t let anyone sell you short, you’re doing good. It wasn’t that long ago you were bustin your hump at Lowes like Bhanks.
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I may drive some old cars, i may live in a singlewide, i may not have brand name clothes like Gucci or Cartier, i may not own a Rolex, and i may have a lousy job but as long as i got my friends to hang out with, my family, and course my fanbase...its all good
And I'm a Getbig Pwning Machine....Other than Onlyme , nobody has come close to taking me out. You cry and meltdown at the mods...Keith never did cried to the mods, meltdown like a bitch, or lash out at others....me and him just kept throwing boulders back and forth at each other 24/7 for years, went after each others families, etc. You are no Keith Jones my friend...you don't have what it takes, you simply don't have the ruthless aggression that he had. You're just another ant that i choose not to even squash on the sidewalk.
huh?
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8K Vince? When you get old like me start adding zeros to that. There was a meltdown in growth stocks around the beginning of 2021. During the Trump presidency stocks had exploded to crazy valuations. After Trump lost, I kept my dependable stocks like Visa, and Microsoft. Big, money making companies, and dumped all the growth stuff. At the time I had come close to 10x my investments during the Trump presidency. I love the guy. I saw retirement a possibility in 2023. So I sold half my stocks, about 600K off the highs but still took some great profits. Since that time, even the solid stocks have taken a hit although not as severe. I'm probably down around 850K from the highs with more pain to come. When the dust settles many growth stocks could be down 90 plus percent (some already are), and the solid stuff 50 percent. This is definitely a once a generation opportunity and I am waiting for it to bottom. A lot of cash in the account. Hopes of retiring soon have faded. Let the panic selling continue intro the abyss. When inflation is under control, and the upcoming housing crisis is under control we are in for a serious rally. Until then things won't be pretty.
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Vince who from your fan base do you hang out with?
Also are any of your fans crossovers from your wrestling days?
And don’t let anyone sell you short, you’re doing good. It wasn’t that long ago you were bustin your hump at Lowes like Bhanks.
My fanbase is really my Youtube subscribers although i still hang out occasionly with people who worked in the wrestling business...honestly i stay away from it all
And dont compare me to Bhanks, i worked at Lowes for over 5 years and he couldnt even do 2 weeks🤣
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8K Vince? When you get old like me start adding zeros to that. There was a meltdown in growth stocks around the beginning of 2021. During the Trump presidency stocks had exploded to crazy valuations. After Trump lost, I kept my dependable stocks like Visa, and Microsoft. Big, money making companies, and dumped all the growth stuff. At the time I had come close to 10x my investments during the Trump presidency. I love the guy. I saw retirement a possibility in 2023. So I sold half my stocks, about 600K off the highs but still took some great profits. Since that time, even the solid stocks have taken a hit although not as severe. I'm probably down around 850K from the highs with more pain to come. When the dust settles many growth stocks could be down 90 plus percent (some already are), and the solid stuff 50 percent. This is definitely a once a generation opportunity and I am waiting for it to bottom. A lot of cash in the account. Hopes of retiring soon have faded. Let the panic selling continue intro the abyss. When inflation is under control, and the upcoming housing crisis is under control we are in for a serious rally. Until then things won't be pretty.
Jeez man, sorry to hear that.
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When the dust settles many growth stocks could be down 90 plus percent (some already are), and the solid stuff 50 percent. This is definitely a once a generation opportunity and I am waiting for it to bottom. A lot of cash in the account. Hopes of retiring soon have faded. Let the panic selling continue intro the abyss. When inflation is under control, and the upcoming housing crisis is under control we are in for a serious rally. Until then things won't be pretty.
This is great advice.
This is the kinda stuff Bhanky should be posting. Instead he's busy discussing tan lines and France fries.
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
Considering the market is down about 20% in general s&p 500. If we are to believe you’re down 8k.
You had 40,000 in your 401k?
40,000 * .80 = 32,000.
40,000 - 32,000 = 8000?
And went to fidelity? Cant you check your account online like most modern day tech savy “head NIC”
Like your self vince. I’d assume you get the ceo business owner treatment?
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Try looking at a 1/2 million gone, I've been in this 401K thing for 35 years.
It sucks but it "should" bounce back with the market when a Pubtard gets back in, in a couple years.
Try not to look at it..
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Just ignore it. If you are like most people and have everything in low cost index funds then your 401k will follow the market. If the market is down then your 401k will be down. But over the long haul its value *should* increase. Unless you are close to retirement you shouldn't sell. As you get closer to retirement you gradually move the money from stocks to less volatile areas (like bonds). This is the traditional thinking as I understand it.
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Goodrum, since you are a self proclaimed genius day trader, I would assume you know what is going on.
Besides, the others give excellent advice: Don't look at it. Keep investing, even in downturns.
DCA works best when stocks are falling (assuming you are buying something that will eventually go back up again)
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Just ignore it. If you are like most people and have everything in low cost index funds then your 401k will follow the market. If the market is down then your 401k will be down. But over the long haul its value *should* increase. Unless you are close to retirement you shouldn't sell. As you get closer to retirement you gradually move the money from stocks to less volatile areas (like bonds). This is the traditional thinking as I understand it.
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Yup, Im hoping it goes back up once these dumb commies are out of office.
Things also crashed years ago under Obozo. Then came back. I made the most under Trumps 4-years.
At 56, I was looking at retiring in 6 years (age 62). If I get let go from this job at age 59 1/2, I can start living off of 401K w/ out penalty.
My plan is to still retire at age 62, live off of 401K for a few years and then put in for real retirement (SS) age age 66 1/2 when its at full value.
I also have a pension which is sort of rare these days.
Again, if these commies crash things even worse, things may never return fully (401K value). Im thinking it will like always, just need Demturdz OUT.
Everything they touch is a massive fail...
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Gym rat, you just need buckets of different investments. If you plenty of cash in a safe "bucket" you can easily survice a stock down turn, even in retirement.
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At least you aren't invested in shitcoin.
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Gym rat, you just need buckets of different investments. If you plenty of cash in a safe "bucket" you can easily survice a stock down turn, even in retirement.
Yup, thx for the info... Now that Im getting close (sort of) I need to look into this more...
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
The value is down, but you haven't lost any money unless you sell. The value will go back up and then some.
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When inflation is under control, and the upcoming housing crisis is under control we are in for a serious rally. Until then things won't be pretty.
Personally, I don't see the housing market changing too much. Yeah, the interest rates are going up and that is cooling the market off, but there won't be a drop or even a crash like in 2008 or so. That is because when the market took off this time last year, it was with a mostly cash buy foundation. Buyers had all cash or enough cash on hand to qualify for the stricter lending criteria. Unlike 2008 when it crashed and left everyone underwater and strapped, the lenders learned their lesson from the screwing they got back then. It was much tighter this time around with lending and property appraisals. And that is a good thing. Because I see homes now being listed for $200K over what they are worth. Sellers don't realize that, yeah.... you can list your home for whatever price you want, but that doesn't mean you are going to get it. And unless a buyer has a big chunk of cash ready to put down, lenders are not going to give them enough for the remaining over appraisal amount. And if you have enough cash to buy it outright, you really are NOT going to spend it on someone else's greed. Unlike 2008, the buyers now were unable to take out mega loans for the prospect of a quick flip in six months. So while it may take them longer to flip the house on a slower market, the loans are more manageable in terms of $$$ (because of the higher percentage of cash they had to put down) should they find the house isn't selling fast enough.
I think what we are going to see is the market will continue to stagnate and slow down. More homes are becoming available for sale. The people looking to sell for profit has pretty much missed the boat at this point. The market turned the corner and is now favoring buyers over sellers a little more every day. The days of a home having a dozen offers on it and a bidding war going on from the first day it hit the market are over. But with more manageable loans the new owners can rent the homes out and let rent carry the mortgage until it can sell. In 2008 there was no way you could get enough rent to carry the mortgages that the banks were handing out left and right.
The inflation will cool and historically a recession always follows inflation (not always but the vast majority of the time), the recession I think is coming won't be known for being severe or with a sharp drop/decline, but instead I think it is going to be remembered for it's duration. I think it is going to be much longer than past ones.
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The value is down, but you haven't lost any money unless you sell. The value will go back up and then some.
Good point, but it also points out the fact that you don’t HAVE any money until they give it to you. All you have is a $.01 piece of paper statement. They tell you what’s in there and they will decide how much is yours. That’s why I hate my deferred comp accounts.
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I'm seeing this almost daily, this pic is from Friday, down about 40% since beginning of the year for me but investing for 8+ years still up over 100 % long term. I've bought more in stock this year than I have in any years past
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
when you vote for a corrupted senile fool, there are consequences ..
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when you vote for a corrupted senile fool, there are consequences ..
8K, LOL ::)
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The larger the account and the more aggressively invested, the more value it will lose when stocks are down.
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Good point, but it also points out the fact that you don’t HAVE any money until they give it to you. All you have is a $.01 piece of paper statement. They tell you what’s in there and they will decide how much is yours. That’s why I hate my deferred comp accounts.
You don't have any of that money until you need it and decide to withdraw it. You can do that penalty free at age 59.5. You can do that penalty free at age 55 if you follow the rule of 55. You can do that penalty free before age 55 if you follow rule 72(t).
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Contributions to a Roth IRA can be withdrawn at any time.
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FJB that’s what’s going on
when you vote for a corrupted senile fool, there are consequences ..
This ^
LGB
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LGB
T
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T
FU
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FU
U2
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U2
Bono
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Bono
:D
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Contributions to a Roth IRA can be withdrawn at any time.
While this is technically true, you cannot withdraw the earnings portion penalty free until 59.5 years old unless for specific qualifying purchases.
Until then they own your money and make a tidy profit from it. We basically get a percentage of their earnings and eat 100% of their losses.
So we shoulder ALL the risk while they make money on all our earnings. It’s a great investment model for the IRA management company.
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Pro Bono
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5cacec4a3560c35af85a08ae/1593191619493-8FZ9AKDUT6M3SO6UK1OB/IMG_0714.JPG)
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While this is technically true, you cannot withdraw the earnings portion penalty free until 59.5 years old unless for specific qualifying purchases.
Until then they own your money and make a tidy profit from it. We basically get a percentage of their earnings and eat 100% of their losses.
So we shoulder ALL the risk while they make money on all our earnings. It’s a great investment model for the IRA management company.
Technically true? It is true.
You can withdraw the amount you contributed to a Roth IRA anytime without penalty.
Invest in very low expense index funds.
Don't be a chump and use actively managed funds.
Nobody is forcing you to invest in a 401k. If you like invest your money in taxable investments instead.
People stay poor for a reason. They are ignorant about how money works. I read posts on here that show me how ignorant people are about investing. It's so easy but people are ignorant.
Then they blame the 401k for their failure when they were too lazy to learn the basics of utilizing a 401k and simple investing concepts. People don't want to learn and would rather abdicate responsibility to someone else who then rips them off.
Look up Bogelheads Guide to Investing.
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so your saying lease kia
never keep a car more than 3 years
and youll ride off into the sunset
so once your retired will you still live like a monk?
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so your saying lease kia
never keep a car more than 3 years
and youll ride off into the sunset
so once your retired will you still live like a monk?
Never said lease a Kia.
Lease a BMW or a Mercedes if you want one.
I am retired and financially comfortable.
Had a friend whose hobby was restoring old Porsches. They needed constant work which he did himself.
Have another friend who owns about 10 Harleys. Constant maintenance which he does himself. It's his hobby.
Paying someone else to fix them would have been quite expensive. If you don't mind paying then it's of no consequence.
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You could likely tell not a big fan of 401s. Consider myself lucky (although it was a conscious choice) I am on a pension plan. Used to be the norm a few decades ago. Pension plan puts all the risk on the employer. If investments don’t go well they cover the losses. 401s put all the risk on the employee. Markets go to shit even 10 years out from retirement it can fuck up your plans and lifestyle. 401s wiped in 08 took almost 12 years to return to where they were, and even then they were 12 years behind as that just put them at pre-08 levels. Most participants don’t get to choose the company that manages and have very limited control of how they invest.
Pension= defined benefit. Means what you get is spelled out years in advance so you can properly plan a retirement.
401= defined contribution. Means only guarantee is how much you pay, what you get is up for grabs. People that dedicate decades to a company deserve more security.
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Stocks are racists vince get out now
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You could likely tell not a big fan of 401s. Consider myself lucky (although it was a conscious choice) I am on a pension plan. Used to be the norm a few decades ago. Pension plan puts all the risk on the employer. If investments don’t go well they cover the losses. 401s put all the risk on the employee. Markets go to shit even 10 years out from retirement it can fuck up your plans and lifestyle. 401s wiped in 08 took almost 12 years to return to where they were, and even then they were 12 years behind as that just put them at pre-08 levels. Most participants don’t get to choose the company that manages and have very limited control of how they invest.
Pension= defined benefit. Means what you get is spelled out years in advance so you can properly plan a retirement.
401= defined contribution. Means only guarantee is how much you pay, what you get is up for grabs. People that dedicate decades to a company deserve more security.
100% in agreement.
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Technically true? It is true.
You can withdraw the amount you contributed to a Roth IRA anytime without penalty.
Invest in very low expense index funds.
Don't be a chump and use actively managed funds.
Nobody is forcing you to invest in a 401k. If you like invest your money in taxable investments instead.
People stay poor for a reason. They are ignorant about how money works. I read posts on here that show me how ignorant people are about investing. It's so easy but people are ignorant.
Then they blame the 401k for their failure when they were too lazy to learn the basics of utilizing a 401k and simple investing concepts. People don't want to learn and would rather abdicate responsibility to someone else who then rips them off.
Look up Bogelheads Guide to Investing.
IroNat is a very wise getbigger who is enjoying the fruits of his younger self's wise decisions and actions.
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IroNat is a very wise getbigger who is enjoying the fruits of his younger self's wise decisions and actions.
Loco know.
The above posts only validate what I posted.
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While this is technically true, you cannot withdraw the earnings portion penalty free until 59.5 years old unless for specific qualifying purchases.
Until then they own your money and make a tidy profit from it. We basically get a percentage of their earnings and eat 100% of their losses.
So we shoulder ALL the risk while they make money on all our earnings. It’s a great investment model for the IRA management company.
It's not "technically" true. It's a fact that you can withdraw Roth IRA contributions at any time penalty free, and you won't pay taxes because your contribution is already after tax.
"They" own your money? Who is "They"? I own my money. When I leave my employer, I can take my money with me: Roll it over to my new employer's retirement plan or roll it over to my own personal IRA and invest it anyway I want to. With an IRA, I can move my money from one financial institution to another if I want to. It's my money.
My current 401K plan charges me zero fees. The only fees I pay are for the two index funds I invest in, which are 0.07% and 0.32%. That's only $0.70 per $1,000 invested and $3.20 per $1,000 invested.
As for my personal Traditional IRA and Roth IRA, and taxable account at Vanguard, I pay just 0.04% for the one index fund I invest everything in and:
"Vanguard set out in 1975 under a radical ownership structure that remains unique in the asset management industry. Our company is owned by its member funds, which in turn are owned by fund shareholders. With no outside owners to satisfy, we focus squarely on meeting the investment needs of our clients."
https://corporate.vanguard.com/content/corporatesite/us/en/corp/who-we-are/sets-us-apart/index.html
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Stocks are racists vince get out now
;D
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You could likely tell not a big fan of 401s. Consider myself lucky (although it was a conscious choice) I am on a pension plan. Used to be the norm a few decades ago. Pension plan puts all the risk on the employer. If investments don’t go well they cover the losses. 401s put all the risk on the employee. Markets go to shit even 10 years out from retirement it can fuck up your plans and lifestyle. 401s wiped in 08 took almost 12 years to return to where they were, and even then they were 12 years behind as that just put them at pre-08 levels. Most participants don’t get to choose the company that manages and have very limited control of how they invest.
Pension= defined benefit. Means what you get is spelled out years in advance so you can properly plan a retirement.
401= defined contribution. Means only guarantee is how much you pay, what you get is up for grabs. People that dedicate decades to a company deserve more security.
A pension plan is good for most people, people who don't care about learning very simple investing basics, and prefer others do the work for them, people who are fine with less money and less control/freedom in exchange for more "security."
I personally prefer my 401K plan over a pension plan because it gives me far more control over my own investments and I know how to accumulate far more on my own with a 401K and other retirement account types than with a pension plan. I'll take the risk along with control of my own investments over the "security" of a pension plan any day.
Pension plans have issues and risks of their own. They can go belly up, and even if insured they will pay a reduced amount which can mess up your lifestyle in retirement. You can't take your pension early, you can't take it with you when you change jobs, etc.:
"If you’re counting on a traditional defined-benefit pension, there’s reason to worry that you might not get everything you’ve earned. About 80 percent of the 29,000 private-sector defined-benefit plans insured by the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. have been underfunded by $740 billion. State and local public employee pensions were recently in a $1 trillion hole.
Instead of beefing up plan assets, many companies have cut benefits. Employers can change their pension rules going forward using a variety of tactics, including tinkering with benefit formulas so that your eventual payout will be reduced, “freezing” the plan to stop further accruals, or terminating an underfunded plan.
“Vested” pension assets—those that legally become your property after a period of time—are generally safe thanks to federal law. But if the plan is terminated, the PBGC, which itself is $26 billion in the red, is required to pay vested benefits only up to a certain amount, which varies by the employee’s age and the year in which the plan is terminated.
Pensions of government workers aren’t covered by the agency but are often protected by state constitutions or laws. Still, 26 states have squeezed benefits for new hires, some other workers, and retirees.
Assess specific threats. They can range widely depending on your age, how many years until your retirement, and exactly how your benefits are altered. For example, a so-called hard pension freeze, which stops benefit accruals based on job tenure and compensation growth, is worse for mid-career workers, who are denied the added pension kick that late-tenure accruals tend to provide.
Earlier this year, American Airlines said it would freeze the plans of most of its 130,000 employees and retirees after threatening to terminate its pension (underfunded by $10 billion) and letting the PBGC take it over. Both options ultimately create a freeze, but a takeover would put into effect payout limits that could shortchange higher-income beneficiaries. For plans ended this year, PBGC maximum monthly benefit are $2,094 for 55-year-old workers and $4,653 for 65-year-olds."
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/07/how-safe-is-your-pension/index.htm
Pension vs. 401(k)
"A 401(k) can be more aggressively managed, and you control the growth, which can be greater than that of a pension fund, whose growth you don’t control. It can start earning money immediately, while a pension usually takes five to seven years before you are vested.
A 401(k) is also more portable; you can take it from one employer to another by rolling it over into a new 401(k) at your new job. You can also roll it over into an individual retirement account (IRA).11 A pension stays with the employer who provides it if you switch jobs. You must keep track of it, and when you are ready to retire, you have to apply for the pension before you can get your payments."
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100314/whats-difference-between-401k-and-pension-plan.asp
I still have the option to take say 1/3 my nest egg in retirement and buy a simple annuity if I want the "security" of a pension, but I probably won't do that.
Markets go to shit even 10 years out from retirement it can fuck up your plans and lifestyle. 401s wiped in 08 took almost 12 years to return to where they were, and even then they were 12 years behind as that just put them at pre-08 levels.
Sequence of Return Risk is very real, but there are simple ways to deal with it a decade or two around retirement for those who are risk averse: Keep 2-3 years cash to cover expenses so you don't have to sell low during market run-downs, a more conservative asset allocation, spending flexibility, a simple annuity, dividend investing, etc.
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Wall of text, but the short answer is no 401s are not superior to pensions for recipients. 401s are better for employers. They incur zero risk and the cost is constant and controllable. I am a recipient of a pension, have three 401s, and I have been an employer running payroll so I am well aware of the aspects of all. BTW most annuities are awful.
Lots of articles and talk of pensions having “unfunded liability” or “underfunded”. While true, the employers have to make up those shortfalls which may or may not even be real, as that is a calculation of how much a fund needs to pay out every participant until life expectancy. Good years of investing often cover those liabilities. Very rare a pensioner loses out due to failure of a pension as they are all insured. 401 retirees get fucked every year. My father was forced into retirement by his employer with a 401 in 2009. He didn’t even realize the sum of his PERSONAL contributions. Total ass raping.
Simple fact, for employers pensions are expensive. That’s because the recipients get what they earned. 401s are cheap. Because recipients RARELY get what they should.
I have investments in 401s, but only as a supplement to retirement. That’s what 401s were originally designed for back around 1980, for deferred comp plans that supplement pensions. Once employers realized the savings they abandoned pensions in droves.
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Is your pension from a government job, Freemason?
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Went into Fidelity to check the account and its lighter by 8k bucks. WTF is going on. So pissed
You voted for this remember ?
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Wall of text, but the short answer is no 401s are not superior to pensions for recipients. 401s are better for employers. They incur zero risk and the cost is constant and controllable. I am a recipient of a pension, have three 401s, and I have been an employer running payroll so I am well aware of the aspects of all. BTW most annuities are awful.
Lots of articles and talk of pensions having “unfunded liability” or “underfunded”. While true, the employers have to make up those shortfalls which may or may not even be real, as that is a calculation of how much a fund needs to pay out every participant until life expectancy. Good years of investing often cover those liabilities. Very rare a pensioner loses out due to failure of a pension as they are all insured. 401 retirees get fucked every year. My father was forced into retirement by his employer with a 401 in 2009. He didn’t even realize the sum of his PERSONAL contributions. Total ass raping.
Simple fact, for employers pensions are expensive. That’s because the recipients get what they earned. 401s are cheap. Because recipients RARELY get what they should.
I have investments in 401s, but only as a supplement to retirement. That’s what 401s were originally designed for back around 1980, for deferred comp plans that supplement pensions. Once employers realized the savings they abandoned pensions in droves.
You misunderstand me.
I am not saying 401Ks are superior to pensions, nor am I saying pensions are bad.
Best case scenario is to have both, like you have. You are indeed very fortunate.
What I am saying is that if I had to choose one, I personally would choose 401K because I know how to use it to my own advantage knowing very basic investing principles most people don't care to learn and apply. I already listed all the reasons why I prefer 401K over pension if I had to choose one.
401K is nowhere near as bad as you seem to believe. I am sorry that happened to your dad, but 401K plans in general are not to blame for that.
Pension plans are not as great and bulletproof as you seem to believe. I already listed all the reasons why they aren't.
If pension plans are so great and bulletproof, why were 401K plans invented to supplement pension plans?
If 401K plans are as terrible as you say, why did you contribute to one at all?
Pension plans are good for most people, but unfortunately most people today don't have access to one because they are quickly becoming a thing of the past.
What is your advice to young working people who don't have access to a pension plan, if not to contribute to their available 401K plan?
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I'm starting to wonder if having a huge savings account is worth it,
especially if you do not have children.
Some people are so obsessed with obtaining wealth and saving, that they forget that they can die tomorrow. What's good about having all that money if you are dead?
I'm not saying that you should live paycheck to paycheck, but it doesn't hurt to also live your life. The future is not guaranteed. Live for the present.
Have life insurance for your family. Spend everything else.
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I'm starting to wonder if having a huge savings account is worth it,
especially if you do not have children.
Some people are so obsessed with obtaining wealth and saving, that they forget that they can die tomorrow. What's good about having all that money if you are dead?
I'm not saying that you should live paycheck to paycheck, but it doesn't hurt to also live your life. The future is not guaranteed. Live for the present.
Have life insurance for your family. Spend everything else.
I'm not a financial expert but everything I've ready about life insurance, term life insurance etc. seems inferior to just plugging your money into the 401k. Then if you have leftovers an HSA and if more leftover a 529. Or you could just pay your taxes on the money now and throw it in the market anticipating higher tax rates in the years to come.
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I'm starting to wonder if having a huge savings account is worth it,
especially if you do not have children.
Some people are so obsessed with obtaining wealth and saving, that they forget that they can die tomorrow. What's good about having all that money if you are dead?
I'm not saying that you should live paycheck to paycheck, but it doesn't hurt to also live your life. The future is not guaranteed. Live for the present.
Have life insurance for your family. Spend everything else.
I agree. Most people investing are simply putting off enjoying life until they are either dead or too sick and weak to enjoy that money they saved.
Having a paid off house, no consumer debt, term life insurance for dependents, long term care insurance for those over 60, great health insurance plan, along with a 1 year supply of cash to pay all bills and 1 year supply of food is far superior to hundreds of thousands in investment portfolio money.
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One reason to accumulate wealth is so you can retire and get off the treadmill.
Put your money to work so you don't have to.
You need to start young though to utilize compound interest.
Except in rarified estate planning circumstances, life insurance replaces income lost when a wage earner dies unexpectedly so the family can continue.
I've met a few men who don't care what happens to their wife and kids if they die unexpectedly.
Real bums.
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I agree. Most people investing are simply putting off enjoying life until they are either dead or too sick and weak to enjoy that money they saved.
Having a paid off house, no consumer debt, term life insurance for dependents, long term care insurance for those over 60, great health insurance plan, along with a 1 year supply of cash to pay all bills and 1 year supply of food is far superior to hundreds of thousands in investment portfolio money.
Wnere does your income come from in this scenario? Work?
What about when you retire?
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One reason to accumulate wealth is so you can retire and get off the treadmill.
Put your money to work so you don't have to.
You need to start young though to utilize compound interest.
Except in rarified estate planning circumstances, life insurance replaces income lost when a wage earner dies unexpectedly so the family can continue.
I've met a few men who don't care what happens to their wife and kids if they die unexpectedly.
Real bums.
True, but that takes decades. GET RICH QUICK 'CAUSE GETTING RICH SLOWLY TAKES TOO LONG!
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Wnere does your income come from in this scenario? Work?
What about when you retire?
I'm talking about those who invest a large portion of their income. It would be better to pay off the house with that money and spend the extra cash on those things listed. Of course, you have to park money somewhere to live off of even if you have done all that.
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I'm starting to wonder if having a huge savings account is worth it,
especially if you do not have children.
Some people are so obsessed with obtaining wealth and saving, that they forget that they can die tomorrow. What's good about having all that money if you are dead?
I'm not saying that you should live paycheck to paycheck, but it doesn't hurt to also live your life. The future is not guaranteed. Live for the present.
Have life insurance for your family. Spend everything else.
I agree. Most people investing are simply putting off enjoying life until they are either dead or too sick and weak to enjoy that money they saved.
Having a paid off house, no consumer debt, term life insurance for dependents, long term care insurance for those over 60, great health insurance plan, along with a 1 year supply of cash to pay all bills and 1 year supply of food is far superior to hundreds of thousands in investment portfolio money.
You invest part of your income now in stocks, and/or bonds, and/or your own business, and/or real estate so that you can maintain your lifestyle when you are no longer working for somebody else.
People stop working for somebody else because of health issues, or because they are tired and ready to do something they enjoy, or simply because they are financially independent and they can retire.
Whatever the reason, you don't want to end up having to live under a bridge eating cat food because you didn't plan for the days when you are no longer working.
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I'm talking about those who invest a large portion of their income. It would be better to pay off the house with that money and spend the extra cash on those things listed.
You can do all of the above with hard work, discipline and patience.
Of course, you have to park money somewhere to live off of even if you have done all that.
And where would that be?
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You can do all of the above with hard work, discipline and patience.
And where would that be?
Cash, real estate, foreign currency, precious metals, bonds, etc.
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Cash, real estate, foreign currency, precious metals, bonds, etc.
Didn't you just agree with Shizzo that saving and investing is not worth it, and that one should live for today, enjoy life, and spend it all because tomorrow is not guaranteed?
The only investments you mentioned that are winners are real estate and bonds. US iBonds are paying almost 10% interest now until November, when the interest will be re-calculated for the following six months and it could get even higher because of inflation.
Cash is getting crushed by inflation right now. Investing in foreign currency is way too risky for the low returns, not worth it. Precious metals barely keep up with inflation. None of these would provide enough income in retirement.
Historically US stocks and US stock index funds by far outpace inflation overtime and then some. Real estate is a very close second, but it isn't passive like investing in US stock index funds. Investing in real estate is also more difficult to succeed with, and easier to screw up.
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What might be a good option for those of us getting close (to retirement) be, as it relates to 401K's and moving them elsewhere (if possible) like an IRA, Index-Fund, etc?
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Didn't you just agree with Shizzo that saving and investing is not worth it, and that one should live for today, enjoy life, and spend it all because tomorrow is not guaranteed?
The only investments you mentioned that are winners are real estate and bonds. US iBonds are paying almost 10% interest now until November, when the interest will be re-calculated for the following six months and it could get even higher because of inflation.
Cash is getting crushed by inflation right now. Investing in foreign currency is way too risky for the low returns, not worth it. Precious metals barely keep up with inflation. None of these would provide enough income in retirement.
Historically US stocks and US stock index funds by far outpace inflation overtime and then some. Real estate is a very close second, but it isn't passive like investing in US stock index funds. Investing in real estate is also more difficult to succeed with, and easier to screw up.
I was talking about mostly stocks but over investing in anything is a waste. If you have a paid off house and the other things I originally mentioned you can live off your social security check.
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What might be a good option for those of us getting close (to retirement) be, as it relates to 401K's and moving them elsewhere (if possible) like an IRA, Index-Fund, etc?
Depends on how close to retirement you are, how much you have already saved, what your annual expenses are/will be in retirement, whether or not you have a pension, own investment properties, when you plan on claiming social security, etc.
Typically a person needs a retirement account balance of minimum 25x their annual expenses on the day they decide to retire.
When you are accumulating for retirement it's hard to go wrong with a total US stock index fund such as VTSAX or it's ETF equivalent VTI in your traditional IRA and/or Roth IRA if you are 7 years or more away from retirement.
Your 401K should have a S&P 500 index fund and if you're lucky a total US stock index fund such as a Russell 1000 index fund. Always look at the fund's expense ratio and go with the cheapest one.
If you are risk adverse and stock market volatility is keeping you up at night, keep 10% to 40% of your retirement portfolio in a total US bond market index fund. This will smooth your portfolio's volatility, but it will slow down growth too.
If you have a mortgage, car loan, etc., make sure you keep 3 to 6 months expenses in a savings account for emergencies.
If you want to retire at age 55 using the rule of 55 to withdraw from your 401K penalty free, you'll have to keep your 401K with your final employer's plan and not roll it over anywhere. In fact, you'll want to beef up your latest 401K by rolling over to it any former employer's 401Ks you may have left behind, and even any traditional IRA you may have. You'll want to do this before you retire at age 55.
Check with your employer's 401K plan provider to make sure your plan allows partial withdrawals and won't force you to withdraw a lump sum. That would be a tax disaster.
For strategies that apply to you specifically, look for a "fee only" financial advisor who is fiduciary. You'll pay by the hour or per session. It won't be cheap, but it will give you a better picture of where you are and how to get to your goals.
Avoid financial advisors who are more salesmen than anything and want to sell you products (whole life insurance, annuities, etc.) and want to manage your accounts for a percentage of your nest egg.
Most importantly, think about your options for health insurance if you are retiring before age 65. Christians have the option of health sharing ministries such as Medi-Share. That has worked very well for many Christian early retirees. Some millionaire early retirees get on Obamacare. A few fortunate ones get health insurance from their employer after retirement until they qualify for Medicare.
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I was talking about mostly stocks but over investing in anything is a waste. If you have a paid off house and the other things I originally mentioned you can live off your social security check.
With the vast majority of the population ill-prepared for retirement, many of them high earners too, I'd say over investing is a "problem" very few people have, a problem many wish they had.
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Pretty amazing the economy is taking a nose dive and congressional turds are going to extend the Jan 6 hearings. Haven’t even watched that pony show but you’d think they’d be focusing on what’s impacting the people - doesn’t impact those corrupt turds.
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With the vast majority of the population ill-prepared for retirement, many of them high earners too, I'd say over investing is a "problem" very few people have, a problem many wish they had.
Those heavily invested in the stock market are taking a bath right now. Losing a decades worth of invested money in a few months must sting.
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Losing a decades worth of invested money in a few months must sting.
That is the case with Shopify and other similar super expensive growth stocks. If you have S&P 500, you have lost the last 18 months of returns.
Personally, I am just holding enough cash so I can ride out the volatility. The extreme inflation from 1970 - 1980 (approximately) was a 10 year period where stock returns were about flat. Let us hope that is not what will happen in the next 10 years. Nobody knows.
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Depends on how close to retirement you are, how much you have already saved, what your annual expenses are/will be in retirement, whether or not you have a pension, own investment properties, when you plan on claiming social security, etc.
Typically a person needs a retirement account balance of minimum 25x their annual expenses on the day they decide to retire.
When you are accumulating for retirement it's hard to go wrong with a total US stock index fund such as VTSAX or it's ETF equivalent VTI in your traditional IRA and/or Roth IRA if you are 7 years or more away from retirement.
Your 401K should have a S&P 500 index fund and if you're lucky a total US stock index fund such as a Russell 1000 index fund. Always look at the fund's expense ratio and go with the cheapest one.
If you are risk adverse and stock market volatility is keeping you up at night, keep 10% to 40% of your retirement portfolio in a total US bond market index fund. This will smooth your portfolio's volatility, but it will slow down growth too.
If you have a mortgage, car loan, etc., make sure you keep 3 to 6 months expenses in a savings account for emergencies.
If you want to retire at age 55 using the rule of 55 to withdraw from your 401K penalty free, you'll have to keep your 401K with your final employer's plan and not roll it over anywhere. In fact, you'll want to beef up your latest 401K by rolling over to it any former employer's 401Ks you may have left behind, and even any traditional IRA you may have. You'll want to do this before you retire at age 55.
Check with your employer's 401K plan provider to make sure your plan allows partial withdrawals and won't force you to withdraw a lump sum. That would be a tax disaster.
For strategies that apply to you specifically, look for a "fee only" financial advisor who is fiduciary. You'll pay by the hour or per session. It won't be cheap, but it will give you a better picture of where you are and how to get to your goals.
Avoid financial advisors who are more salesmen than anything and want to sell you products (whole life insurance, annuities, etc.) and want to manage your accounts for a percentage of your nest egg.
Most importantly, think about your options for health insurance if you are retiring before age 65. Christians have the option of health sharing ministries such as Medi-Share. That has worked very well for many Christian early retirees. Some millionaire early retirees get on Obamacare. A few fortunate ones get health insurance from their employer after retirement until they qualify for Medicare.
This is outstanding info loco, that you!!
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Those heavily invested in the stock market are taking a bath right now. Losing a decades worth of invested money in a few months must sting.
For a broad market fund YTD down 22%, over the past 1 year down 15%, over the past 3 years up 23%, over the past 5 years up 50%.
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This is outstanding info loco, that you!!
You are welcome!
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Those heavily invested in the stock market are taking a bath right now. Losing a decades worth of invested money in a few months must sting.
What are you talking about? They haven't lost a penny unless they sell.
I am very heavily invested in US stock index funds and some international stock index funds, since my 20s. I have never lost a single penny. I have only watched my wealth and net worth grow exponentially over decades. That's the benefit of investing long term in broad stock index funds.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=679533.0;attach=1376497;image)
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For a broad market fund YTD down 22%, over the past 1 year down 15%, over the past 3 years up 23%, over the past 5 years up 50%.
Eggxactly! Time in the market, not timing the market, is what builds wealth.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ1VoyOA6paUNCmKJSet8FnxinyFzfOUX-R_w&usqp=CAU)
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I've never been a fan of 401K's. To be honest, as an accountant with close to 30 years of experience, I'd say 401Ks are a fucking scam.
I wish that when I was younger I could have been offered a true pension. American Express was the first company to offer pensions as far back as I can remember. Unfortunately, very few companies offer pensions at this point (back in the 80's it was still pretty common with over 40 million Americans having true pensions). Pensions, given that they mean an employer has to pay you a percentage of your prior salary (sometimes the full amount) following retirement until you die, is a VERY costly endeavor. All this changed starting back around 1974 when they passed the Employee Retirement Income Security Act. No surprise, companies decided to shift risks from themselves onto employees and the advent of 401K's took place. All it took was to trick employees into thinking that giving them a 401K plan meant they had "more control" of their retirement finances, when in reality a 401K isn't a retirement account, it's a glorified investment account that gets taxed on the backend.
Still, some companies like Exxon, Coca Cola, GM and UPS offer a combination of pension and 401K plans. If you're lucky enough to have both, you're in the money.
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Look on the brightside, Vince. Losing any % of nothing is still nothing.
I don't think you are in too deep (no homo)
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I've never been a fan of 401K's. To be honest, as an accountant with close to 30 years of experience, I'd say 401Ks are a fucking scam.
What's the alternative for those who have no access to a pension, but have access to 401K with employer match?
Pensions, given that they mean an employer has to pay you a percentage of your prior salary (sometimes the full amount) following retirement until you die, is a VERY costly endeavor.
Unsustainable for many companies.
Still, some companies like Exxon, Coca Cola, GM and UPS offer a combination of pension and 401K plans. If you're lucky enough to have both, you're in the money.
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I agree, but I'm surprised you think a combination of both is great since you say 401K is a scam.
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What are you talking about? They haven't lost a penny unless they sell.
I am very heavily invested in US stock index funds and some international stock index funds, since my 20s. I have never lost a single penny. I have only watched my wealth and net worth grow exponentially over decades. That's the benefit of investing long term in broad stock index funds.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=679533.0;attach=1376497;image)
Enjoy.
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Enjoy.
Thanks! I am enjoying, and so are many others.
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I've never been a fan of 401K's. To be honest, as an accountant with close to 30 years of experience, I'd say 401Ks are a fucking scam.
I wish that when I was younger I could have been offered a true pension. American Express was the first company to offer pensions as far back as I can remember. Unfortunately, very few companies offer pensions at this point (back in the 80's it was still pretty common with over 40 million Americans having true pensions). Pensions, given that they mean an employer has to pay you a percentage of your prior salary (sometimes the full amount) following retirement until you die, is a VERY costly endeavor. All this changed starting back around 1974 when they passed the Employee Retirement Income Security Act. No surprise, companies decided to shift risks from themselves onto employees and the advent of 401K's took place. All it took was to trick employees into thinking that giving them a 401K plan meant they had "more control" of their retirement finances, when in reality a 401K isn't a retirement account, it's a glorified investment account that gets taxed on the backend.
Still, some companies like Exxon, Coca Cola, GM and UPS offer a combination of pension and 401K plans. If you're lucky enough to have both, you're in the money.
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A Jewish accountant.... ;)
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Many people lack the discipline to spend less than they make and save/invest the difference.
Many people spend MORE than they make.
They also make poor decisions about the investment options in their 401k and IRAs, or abdicate their decision making to financial advisors who do not have their best interests at heart.
Remember the fable of the grasshopper and the ant?
Many, if not most people are grasshoppers.
Some of the biggest investors in mutual funds are pension funds. The pension funds siphon off extra fees from the amounts contributed by the company. Some pension funds, teachers for example, require contributions directly from the employees' pay, just like 401ks. The employees have no say in what the Administrator of the pension fund (usually an insurance company) invests the moneys in.
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What's the alternative for those who have no access to a pension, but have access to 401K with employer match?
If you mean investment vehicles, I lean more towards real estate or even possibly offering small-medium sized loans with generous interests.
Now if you mean as solely related to working for a company and based off of what they offer, if you qualify, can roll over the 401K into a Roth IRA and then choose whatever investment strategy you want. Going with a Roth allows you to pull your money out when retired and pay no taxes. If you don't qualify and make higher amounts, can also consider a self-directed IRA.
I agree, but I'm surprised you think a combination of both is great since you say 401K is a scam.
The combination of the two isn't bad. While I think 401Ks are a scam (which I can explain with relative ease: you're essentially at the mercy of the market, are providing the funds for big financial firms to indulge in subsidized gambling and are still expected to pay taxes once you're no longer employed or past a certain age), if you have a set pension that you will receive, a hybrid approach (pension + 401K) can at least allow you to diversify your money a bit better. Now, if you use a separate company like Vanguard for instance, outside of what your 401K utilizes, you can also do the diversification work alone and still make out pretty well. Still, you'll be at the mercy of the markets.
401Ks completely took away the burden of companies having to set people up past retirement. Moreover, they give incredible tax incentives for the companies that use them. Companies only "match" because they get deductions.
It's sad, because back 40-50 years ago, if you worked for a major company for 20-30 years, you could retire and still collect 80-100% of your salary until death. Today, you can retire at 65 and if on that same year the market takes a nose dive, you could take up to 10 years to recover, it at all, and could find yourself on poor street living off of social security, savings and liquidation of assets.
"1"
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No way did you retire with 80-100% of your pay from a company pension ever.
My grandfather was Superintendent of a major commercial bakery for over 40 years. His pension at retirement was a couple hundred a month. A pittance.
Proper asset allocation mitigates wild swings in the market.
But you must take advantage of the educational resources provided by 401k plans to make wise decisions.
Unfortunately, many people are too lazy, too afraid, or too dumb to do so.
This is the real problem with IRA and 401k plans: the employee is not mentally and/or emotionally equipped to manage money.
I often see the same behaviors here about money management. Poor decision making and understanding of money management. Mainly from lack of knowledge.
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No way did you retire with 80-100% of your pay from a company pension ever.
What if I show you proof that it not only used to be possible, but still is depending on who you work for? Would you ever consider city cops to be capable of retiring after 20-25 years of service with ANNUAL pensions over $100,000? If so, what would you make of that?
Source: https://www.lohud.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/08/06/these-new-york-police-officers-recently-retired-100-000-pensions/1933375001/ (https://www.lohud.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/08/06/these-new-york-police-officers-recently-retired-100-000-pensions/1933375001/)
Many companies have total pension assets that run into the BILLIONS: https://www.swfinstitute.org/fund-rankings/corporate-pension (https://www.swfinstitute.org/fund-rankings/corporate-pension)
My grandfather was Superintendent of a major commercial bakery for over 40 years. His pension at retirement was a couple hundred a month. A pittance.
It depends on who you worked for.
If you worked for American Express, IBM, Ford Motors and/or Exxon prior to the year 2000, you probably were in line to retire and collect 80-100% of your salary until death. All of that changed even for those companies by around the year 2000. They did away with any semblance of pensions. At most, they have hybrid options.
"1"
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ghey people never lie
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What if I show you proof that it not only used to be possible, but still is depending on who you work for? Would you ever consider city cops to be capable of retiring after 20-25 years of service with ANNUAL pensions over $100,000? If so, what would you make of that?
Source: https://www.lohud.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/08/06/these-new-york-police-officers-recently-retired-100-000-pensions/1933375001/ (https://www.lohud.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/08/06/these-new-york-police-officers-recently-retired-100-000-pensions/1933375001/)
Many companies have total pension assets that run into the BILLIONS: https://www.swfinstitute.org/fund-rankings/corporate-pension (https://www.swfinstitute.org/fund-rankings/corporate-pension)
It depends on who you worked for.
If you worked for American Express, IBM, Ford Motors and/or Exxon prior to the year 2000, you probably were in line to retire and collect 80-100% of your salary until death. All of that changed even for those companies by around the year 2000. They did away with any semblance of pensions. At most, they have hybrid options.
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Those top cop pensions were because they gamed the pension plan by double dipping and loading up their overtime in the years prior to retirement.
Very unusual and basically un-ethical.
Cops generally retire with pensions equal to half-pay.
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Ironat with all due respect you are very misinformed. I am sorry the bakery your father worked for had a horrible pension.
Pension benefits are spelled out at job offer. There is a multiplier (let’s use 1.5% as an example). There is also a final salary calculation formula (such as highest earning year or average of final five years). What income is pensionable I’d speed out as well and while some require zero employee contribution MOST have a contribution rate between 3-8%. So once you calculate your final income you use the multiplyer to figure the benefit. A 1.5% multiplier would pay 75% on a 50 year career. Multipliers can be up to 3% so many pensions have fantastic payouts. Pensions also offer additional perks such as Deferred Retirement Option Plans which enhance incomes even more.
Many pensioners will retire with better than 80% of their salary. I am one of them. Numerous government employees will retire with 75-100+% depending on the amount of time they put in. Before you believe government pensions are the only ones with such benefits I will point out several private pensions that were similarly funded prior to the abandonment of pensions such as: teamsters, Southern Bell, AT&T, First Union Bank, BOA, Publix and many others.
Also, pension funds don’t siphon any money. Here’s how it works. A fund has administrative staff which are compensated (everyone can have an opinion on those paychecks) but receive no compensation from fund investments. Fund investments are decided by Trutees which are generally unpaid or modesty paid individuals that can be elected by the membership.
Advisors can be hired/retained by Trustees and are compensated. They help guide investment decisions.
Otherwise all returns are kept within the fund. All financial transactions are available to the membership to see.
All losses by pension funds are covered by the employer. All gains act to reduce the employers cost so the employer has a real interest in finding good Trustees and paying tip dollar for quality advisors.
As said before, a 401 management company takes your contribution combined with your employers contribution, pulls a fee, invests what’s left, pockets a percentage of all gains but passes ALL losses onto you. They are a decent investment vehicle but problematic to plan a retirement with solely. They were designed to supplement pensions not replace them.
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Those top cop pensions were because they gamed the pension plan by double dipping and loading up their overtime in the years prior to retirement.
Very unusual and basically un-ethical.
Cops generally retire with pensions equal to half-pay.
Wrong. Most police in Florida receive no overtime in pension calculation. Neither do I. You really have no clue what you’re talking about.
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Cops generally retire with pensions equal to half-pay.
Which depending on what rank you have, are pretty damn good!
https://openpayrolls.com/rank/highest-paid-employees/nassau-county-ny (https://openpayrolls.com/rank/highest-paid-employees/nassau-county-ny)
You have some police officers, sergeants and detectives making between $185-200K. Even at half-pay, that's phenomenal to collect $100K/year for the rest of your life after about 25 years of service. Imagine retiring at 50years of age and collecting a $100K salary for the rest of your life?
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What I will add is that as an accountant, I have MANY clients that are retired and used to work for American Express in the 80's & 90's and are collecting a pension that provides well over 80% of their top pay at time of retirement. I also have many retired NYPD officers that are collecting serious pensions at this point.
This is the truth, no fuckery. I actually wish I had worked for some of these companies myself, but never had the opportunity to do so. Hindsight is a bitch.
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you are a smart man loco.
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A 50 year career? Are we talking rollover?
40 to 50 years at the same company is very rare. It will be almost non existent, with today's business climate. I'd argue that you invest 3-6% of your check into a savings account, every pay period.
It may not garner profit, but you won't lose anything either, unless the banking system collapses. Then, guns and baked beans will be equivalent to today's gold.
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If you mean investment vehicles, I lean more towards real estate or even possibly offering small-medium sized loans with generous interests.
Now if you mean as solely related to working for a company and based off of what they offer, if you qualify, can roll over the 401K into a Roth IRA and then choose whatever investment strategy you want. Going with a Roth allows you to pull your money out when retired and pay no taxes. If you don't qualify and make higher amounts, can also consider a self-directed IRA.
I was referring to your advice to young, working people who have access to a 401K plan and no access to a pension plan.
How can they roll over their 401K if they don't have one because you'd advice them it's a scam?
You can't roll over a traditional 401K to a Roth IRA. Assuming you meant a Roth 401K to a Roth IRA, a personal Roth IRA has a contribution limit of $6,000/year, while a 401K has a much higher contribution limit of $20,500. Employer match is always deposited into a traditional 401K even if you contribute only to a Roth 401K.
Are you suggesting contributing to a Roth 401K as much as one can afford (over the $6,000 Roth IRA limit), then roll it over to a personal Roth IRA that has better investment options, then repeat yearly?
I agree that personal IRAs offer many more investing options (not all of them good options) than many 401K plans offer, but what strategy in particular are you suggesting would be better in an IRA than in a 401K? A low cost S&P 500 Index fund or total US stock market index fund are plenty good options in a 401K plan.
The combination of the two isn't bad. While I think 401Ks are a scam (which I can explain with relative ease: you're essentially at the mercy of the market, are providing the funds for big financial firms to indulge in subsidized gambling and are still expected to pay taxes once you're no longer employed or past a certain age), if you have a set pension that you will receive, a hybrid approach (pension + 401K) can at least allow you to diversify your money a bit better. Now, if you use a separate company like Vanguard for instance, outside of what your 401K utilizes, you can also do the diversification work alone and still make out pretty well. Still, you'll be at the mercy of the markets.
401Ks completely took away the burden of companies having to set people up past retirement. Moreover, they give incredible tax incentives for the companies that use them. Companies only "match" because they get deductions.
It's sad, because back 40-50 years ago, if you worked for a major company for 20-30 years, you could retire and still collect 80-100% of your salary until death. Today, you can retire at 65 and if on that same year the market takes a nose dive, you could take up to 10 years to recover, it at all, and could find yourself on poor street living off of social security, savings and liquidation of assets.
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You either believe 401K is a scam, or you believe one can use it in addition to a pension plan to make your retirement plan better. I don't see how you can believe both.
I don't know about you, but I don't invest or participate in anything I believe to be a scam, and I don't advice anyone to do so either.
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Ironat with all due respect you are very misinformed.
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A 50 year career? Are we talking rollover?
40 to 50 years at the same company is very rare. It will be almost non existent, with today's business climate. I'd argue that you invest 3-6% of your check into a savings account, every pay period.
It may not garner profit, but you won't lose anything either, unless the banking system collapses. Then, guns and baked beans will be equivalent to today's gold.
It is certainly rare now in careers with no pensions. But it’s more common than you believe in careers that do involve pensions.
I’m not advising anyone to get out of 401s. I’m simply pointing out how corporate America fucked over the entire workforce by ditching pensions for 401ks. Now you have very little choice unless you pursue specific careers. Receiving a pension is exactly why I am in my chosen career. I gave up a six figure income in exchange for a starting pay of $31,000 a year to acquire it.
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Pensions aren't an option for many. 401k lets you invest the money now pretax and it grows tax free. When you take it out you will presumably be in a lower income tax bracket because you've retired. You're only taking out what you're spending. (Presumably not to pay a mortgage etc.) I'm not a financial guy but that's my understanding of it.
Other guys feel like Democrats are going to increase tax rates in the future anyway, so they'd rather pay their taxes now and not defer it until later.
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It is certainly rare now in careers with no pensions. But it’s more common than you believe in careers that do involve pensions.
I’m not advising anyone to get out of 401s. I’m simply pointing out how corporate America fucked over the entire workforce by ditching pensions for 401ks. Now you have very little choice unless you pursue specific careers. Receiving a pension is exactly why I am in my chosen career. I gave up a six figure income in exchange for a starting pay of $31,000 a year to acquire it.
And how do you suppose that will work out for you, in the long run? I'm interested.
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And how do you suppose that will work out for you, in the long run? I'm interested.
Extremely well. I will be retired before I’m 60. I will have to make no lifestyle adjustments transitioning into retirement.
I would like to point out that I am not in disagreement with everyone who says they have no other choice but a 401(k). The conversation was only how we all got fucked collectively by corporate America when they decided to give up on pensions. It’s foolish to badmouth pensions, they are a far superior retirement vehicle for an employee. It’s impossible to argue that successfully.
Yes, it’s all you have is a 401, please maximize it and try to find as many other ways to supplement it with more secure investment as you can. I did not want that struggle, so I changed careers young and the security it provides for me and my family (my spouse received my benefit in the event of my death) is immeasurable.
I would also like to add, if you have a choice between a job that pays less with a pension, or a job that pays more with the 401, it is quite possible that the lower paying job will compensate you much more lucratively over your life than the one with the 401.
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Extremely well. I will be retired before I’m 60. I will have to make no lifestyle adjustments transitioning into retirement.
I would like to point out that I am not in disagreement with everyone who says they have no other choice but a 401(k). The conversation was only how we all got fucked collectively by corporate America when they decided to give up on pensions. It’s foolish to badmouth pensions, they are a far superior retirement vehicle for an employee. It’s impossible to argue that successfully.
Yes, it’s all you have is a 401, please maximize it and try to find as many other ways to supplement it with more secure investment as you can. I did not want that struggle, so I changed careers young and the security it provides for me and my family (my spouse received my benefit in the event of my death) is immeasurable.
But how old are you now, and will your investments hold up for the long haul?
What if this current nightmare lasts for years?
Those are the questions people are asking themselves. Some, that are on the cusp of retirement, don't know if to go now, or wait a few more years.
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But how old are you now, and will your investments hold up for the long haul?
What if this current nightmare lasts for years?
Those are the questions people are asking themselves. Some, that are on the cusp of retirement, don't know if to go now, or wait a few more years.
Freemason is going to be just fine.
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Freemason is going to be just fine.
Yes....The Freemasons always seem to come out on top.
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I was referring to your advice to young, working people who have access to a 401K plan and no access to a pension plan.
How can they roll over their 401K if they don't have one because you'd advice them it's a scam?
While I think it's a scam, I don't ever stop any clients from investing their money into whatever medium they prefer. I legally can't advise them not to.
You can't roll over a traditional 401K to a Roth IRA.
You can. If you leave your job, you can certainly roll over your traditional 401K into a Roth IRA.
A personal Roth IRA has a contribution limit of $6,000/year, while a 401K has a much higher contribution limit of $20,500. Employer match is always deposited into a traditional 401K even if you contribute only to a Roth 401K.
That's known.
Are you suggesting contributing to a Roth 401K as much as one can afford, then roll it over to a personal Roth IRA that has better investment options, then repeat?
I'm leaning more towards utilization of a backdoor Roth IRA for better protection of your assets from taxes. Roll over 401K after leaving job into traditional IRA and then backdoor it into Roth IRA.
I agree that personal IRAs offer many more investing options (not all of them good options) than many 401K plans offer, but what strategy in particular are you suggesting would be better in an IRA than in a 401K? A low cost S&P 500 Index fund or total us stock market index fund are plenty good options in a 401K plan.
Why not do a self-directed IRA and use it to both invest in the market and also into real estate? Get benefits at the tail end and dodge a world of taxes if done right. Not to mention that the self-directed IRA becomes more like a one-stop shop whereby you get the flexibility in terms of the various types of investments (stocks, real estate etc) you’re able to hold in the account.
You either believe 401K is a scam, or you believe one can use it in addition to a pension plan to make your retirement plan better. I don't see how you can believe both.
I believe 401Ks are a scam as compared to what true pensions were able to offer.
401Ks and their tax deferrals sting come retirement. You retire and get taxed pretty harshly on distributions. If taxes are indeed lower, you can get ahead, but it certainly doesn't play out that way for most. The match is a tax benefit for your employer and even then you don't get to taste it until you're vested. The fees alone will eat away at close to 50% of what you accumulate/save over time. While the assumption is that much like index funds you can get a good return averaging 6-8% per year, reality is that if you're the lucky one to retire when the market has fucked itself over, there goes a large chunk of your money to retire properly and make ends meet.
NOW, something is better than nothing. If you say "I don't want to invest my money in anything else but what my employer offers me", then I don't think it's a bad idea especially if you receive a hybrid whereby your employer offers something else that resembles a pension. With the 401K, you lower your yearly tax burden and if you retire at a good time, you can get decent distributions.
I don't know about you, but I don't invest or participate in anything I believe to be a scam, and I don't advice anyone to do so either.
I am not a financial advisor. I am an accountant. It is illegal for me to advise my clients as to what to do with their money. I cannot provide investment advice or tell a client where to spend their money, I'd lose my license by doing so.
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It’s foolish to badmouth pensions, they are a far superior retirement vehicle for an employee. It’s impossible to argue that successfully.
True for most employees, but not all. As I already stated with the reasons why, I would much rather choose a 401K plan over a pension plan if I had to choose one.
Yes, it’s all you have is a 401, please maximize it and try to find as many other ways to supplement it with more secure investment as you can. I did not want that struggle, so I changed careers young and the security it provides for me and my family (my spouse received my benefit in the event of my death) is immeasurable.
I would also like to add, if you have a choice between a job that pays less with a pension, or a job that pays more with the 401, it is quite possible that the lower paying job will compensate you much more lucratively over your life than the one with the 401.
Good advice, probably for the vast majority of the population. Again, for some people it's much better to choose the higher paying job with a 401K plan and no pension.
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And how do you suppose that will work out for you, in the long run? I'm interested.
why are you clogging this thread up
let the adults speak about this
you drive a 11 year old car and are broke
stfu
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why are you clogging this thread up
let the adults speak about this
you drive a 11 year old car and are broke
stfu
Judging by your wardrobe, you should be listening, rather than typing.
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What I will add is that as an accountant, I have MANY clients that are retired and used to work for American Express in the 80's & 90's and are collecting a pension that provides well over 80% of their top pay at time of retirement. I also have many retired NYPD officers that are collecting serious pensions at this point.
This is the truth, no fuckery. I actually wish I had worked for some of these companies myself, but never had the opportunity to do so. Hindsight is a bitch.
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Ok. I believe you.
:)
Pension payments from private and government pensions are usually subject to federal income tax (unless after tax contributions were made by the employee to the pension). Some states don't tax pension income.
So, you don't usually escape taxation with a pension.
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My dad worked for an automotiveparts supplier and also has a full pension of about 80-100% of his final salary. Also worked about 40 years there.
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My dad worked for an automotiveparts supplier and also has a full pension of about 80-100% of his final salary. Also worked about 40 years there.
Sorry for your loss...
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Sorry for your loss...
idgi?
i'll say this, its a tremendous relief knowing that my parents are taken care of. I have friends that have to support their parents financially as social security + retirement savings are just not enough to meet their expenses.
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Ok. I believe you.
:)
Pension payments from private and government pensions are usually subject to federal income tax (unless after tax contributions were made by the employee to the pension). Some states don't tax pension income.
So, you don't usually escape taxation with a pension.
Absolutely. I've never once said you can escape taxation through pensions.
Uncle Sam gets you no matter what, while alive and even once dead, given that the IRS can legally come after back taxes for a period of 10 years after your death, whereby your estate can be pursued until the amounts owed are paid.
The best way to escape taxes includes using borrowing against your own assets, depreciation of assets (rents) and possibly moving to Puerto Rico to not pay Federal Taxes.
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While I think it's a scam, I don't ever stop any clients from investing their money into whatever medium they prefer. I legally can't advise them not to.
I'm only asking your opinion on what's the alternative for young working people who have no access to a pension but have access to a 401K, since you expressed your opinion that 401Ks are a scam. I'm not asking what you can or can't legally advice your clients.
You can. If you leave your job, you can certainly roll over your traditional 401K into a Roth IRA.
I should have added that you can't rollover a traditional 401K to a Roth IRA without triggering a taxable event. You will owe income taxes on all of the money you rollover in the year when you roll it over. The total amount transferred will be taxed at your ordinary income tax rate, like your salary. This is something few young working people are prepared for.
I know you already know all this stuff, and one doesn't have to be an accountant to know this stuff. I'm simply adding it to make a point and for the benefit of others reading this thread.
However, I wasn't asking your opinion on what young working people should do about their retirement plan when they leave their job. I was asking your opinion on what's their alternative if they have access to a 401K and no access to a pension while they are at their job, not when they leave.
That's known.
Again, I know you know. The point is one of the advantages of a 401K plan (traditional or Roth) over a personal Roth IRA is that with the 401K plan one can contribute far more because of the much higher contribution limit. The advantage of a traditional 401K over a Roth 401K and Roth IRA is that by contributing pretax money you have more money to contribute now with a longer timeframe for those higher contributions to grow.
General rule of thumb is for young people at lower tax brackets to contribute after tax money to a Roth 401K and/or a personal Roth IRA. As they grow their career and get into higher tax brackets, they can switch to contributing pretax money to a traditional 401K. Once they max out their 401K, they can start maxing out a personal Roth IRA too as their wages grow and they have money left to invest and max out both.
As their wages grow further and they have money left to invest after maxing out both their 401K and a personal Roth IRA, they can start contributing after tax money to a taxable brokerage account.
I'm leaning more towards utilization of a backdoor Roth IRA for better protection of your assets from taxes. Roll over 401K after leaving job into traditional IRA and then backdoor it into Roth IRA.
Many retirees already convert their traditional 401K and IRA to a Roth IRA in chunks overtime, between the day they retire and age 72 before Required Minimum Distributions kick in. Since they are retired already, they pay less taxes when converting than whey would have while still working.
Other retirees spend down their deferred tax retirement accounts first, before age 72 and before tapping into their Roth and taxable accounts.
Why not do a self-directed IRA and use it to both invest in the market and also into real estate? Get benefits at the tail end and dodge a world of taxes if done right. Not to mention that the self-directed IRA becomes more like a one-stop shop whereby you get the flexibility in terms of the various types of investments (stocks, real estate etc) you’re able to hold in the account.
Again, the contribution limit for a self-directed IRA, traditional IRA, and Roth IRA is only $6,000 per year. Self-directed IRAs have more complex rules than traditional and Roth IRAs.
Your advice is very good in my opinion, but only for a select few. It's a heck of a lot simpler to invest in an already available 401K plan and a personal Roth IRA, but the vast majority of people aren't interested in learning very basic investing principals to use their 401K plan to their advance. That being the case, I don't expect them to do well with much more complex and far less passive self-directed IRAs and real estate investing.
I believe 401Ks are a scam as compared to what true pensions were able to offer.
401Ks and their tax deferrals sting come retirement. You retire and get taxed pretty harshly on distributions. If taxes are indeed lower, you can get ahead, but it certainly doesn't play out that way for most. The match is a tax benefit for your employer and even then you don't get to taste it until you're vested.
Do you have any data showing that it certainly doesn't play out that way for most? That hasn't been the experience of retirees I know.
Why should anyone care that their 401K match is a tax benefit for their employer? All they should care about is that they are getting thousands of dollars free from their employer. If they don't participate in their 401K plan, they get nothing.
As for employer match vesting, it's the same with pension benefits.
The fees alone will eat away at close to 50% of what you accumulate/save over time.
Do you have any data that shows this? I pay no fees for my 401K plan. Maybe my employer does, but I don't. I pay only the expense ratio of the index funds I invest in which are 0.07% and 0.32%. That's only $0.70 per $1,000 invested and $3.20 per $1,000 invested.
While the assumption is that much like index funds you can get a good return averaging 6-8% per year, reality is that if you're the lucky one to retire when the market has fucked itself over, there goes a large chunk of your money to retire properly and make ends meet.
Fear of Sequence of Return Risk is not an acceptable reason to keep one from investing for the future. There are simple ways to deal with it and many have dealt with it and are fine in retirement. As I said, all it takes is learning some basic principles and applying them.
NOW, something is better than nothing. If you say "I don't want to invest my money in anything else but what my employer offers me", then I don't think it's a bad idea especially if you receive a hybrid whereby your employer offers something else that resembles a pension.
I'd say Nothing is better than investing or participating in a scam. Again, I'd never invest or participate in something I'd believed to be a scam, and I wouldn't advice anyone to do so either.
With the 401K, you lower your yearly tax burden and if you retire at a good time, you can get decent distributions.
So it's not a scam after all, is it?
I am not a financial advisor. I am an accountant. It is illegal for me to advise my clients as to what to do with their money. I cannot provide investment advice or tell a client where to spend their money, I'd lose my license by doing so.
I know that. This is a bodybuilding forum on the Interwebs. You and I are anonymous. You are not my accountant and I am not your client. I'm not asking you to give anyone any financial advice.
Since you expressed your opinion that 401K plans are a scam, I was curious about your opinion as to what would be the alternative for those with access to a 401K plan and no access to a pension.
The reason I care about your opinion is because you are an experienced accountant.
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Your advice is very good in my opinion, but only for a select few. It's a heck of a lot simpler to invest in an already available 401K plan and a personal Roth IRA, but the vast majority of people aren't interested in learning very basic investing principals to use their 401K plan to their advance. That being the case, I don't expect them to do well with much more complex and far less passive self-directed IRAs and real estate investing.
I think this is the crux of the matter on hand. I service relatively affluent high-middle class to upper class clientele. The vast majority of the people I work for (tax clients) are business owners that own everything from diners, to medical practices, to mechanic shops, restaurants and some are just incredibly wealthy who utilize self-directed IRAs to buy investment properties and later distribute from their IRAs to themselves personally as to begin personal use.
Most of my clients look for ways to dodge taxes legally, which I do for them. When you own a business this is the beauty of our tax code, it's truly meant to help you. W-2 folks get slaughtered year in and out. My clients optimize their earnings, dodge taxes and use investment properties and other vehicles to depreciate assets for added income. Heck, one of my clients lives solely off of borrowed capital from his own assets.
Do you have any data showing that it certainly doesn't play out that way for most? That hasn't been the experience of retirees I know.
I do, but that involves personal client records, so I can't disclose that of course. I can try and see if there has been any documented literature online to show the same.
Do you have any data that shows this? I pay no fees for my 401K plan. Maybe my employer does, but I don't. I pay only the expense ratio of the index funds I invest in which are 0.07% and 0.32%. That's only $0.70 per $1,000 invested and $3.20 per $1,000 invested.
Those are very good expense ratios. Anything under 1% is pretty good in my opinion.
Fear of Sequence of Return Risk is not an acceptable reason to keep one from investing for the future. There are simple ways to deal with it and many have dealt with it and are fine in retirement. As I said, all it takes is learning some basic principles and applying them.
I had 401K clients that tried to retire in throughout different times over the last 2 decades. Some tried to retire during 2000-2002, others tried the same during 2007-2009 while collecting distributions, it didn't work out well for them. I also had clients that tried to retire in 2020-2021 right around when COVID it and it didn't work out well for them. There weren't simple ways around it. If anything, some had to continue working to subsidize their ability to survive. Again, it depends on where the market is at and how vested is your 401K. For instance, although I could be wrong, I predict the market is going take a nose dive in the upcoming months as CPI rates continue to go up, fed fund rates continue to rise and harsh recession with a resulting stagflation occurs. I think that if some of my clients that have a 401K were to try and retire closer to Q4 in 2022, it's going to be really bad for them. Just my thoughts..
So it's not a scam after all, is it?
For me it is, because there are better investment vehicles out there as we've discussed. If you are an employee for someone and find it's the best investment option for you, then what works for you, works for you.
The reason I care about your opinion is because you are an experienced accountant.
Thank you for valuing my opinions, as I value yours. Again, what I say is only based on the track record I've seen with my actual clients and how it turns out for them in the long run. In my opinion, business owners who use different means to invest their money show better outcomes. W2 employees with 401K plans as their main investment vehicles, get crushed by taxes over their lives, are at the mercy of the market when it comes time to collect distributions and even then can get hit with harsh taxes after retirement as well.
On a slightly unrelated side note, what has become pretty popular as of the last 1-2 years is clients cashing out their 401Ks. Paying the penalty fee (usually 10%) and then Fed/State/City taxes (in places like NY it turns out to be close to 40% total) and using their money for something immediate like buying a home in full. Yes, it's a tragedy to see someone have to divorce themselves from 50% of their total 401K value, but the peace of mind it apparently brings to clients to own a home in full apparently is worth it.
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Invest in laser tech..
If u invest in fake wealth like bitcoin or 401k its not real u cant hold it
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Just sell drugs. That's the best money advice I can give.