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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: SuperNatural on May 02, 2006, 08:01:26 PM
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x is independent of y= df- x and y are diverse and have no parts in common
x is a sufficient reason for y= df- facts about x fully explain why y is as it is rather than otherwise.
Principle of Sufficient Reason = For every contingent thing, there is some independent sufficent reason.
x is the world = df- x is the aggregate consisting of every contingent thing that ever did exist, does not exist, or ever will exist.
1. The world is a contingent thing.
2. If (1), then there is some independent sufficient reason for the world.
3. If there is some independent sufficient reason for the world, then God exists.
4. Therefore, God exists [1,2,3, MMP]
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This is no argument at all. Just a complex way of saying "If the world exists then God did it". It's assuming "God" is the sufficient reason for the world. This isn't established in any premise.
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I know what you mean... maybe St. Thomas' argument seems more logical?
1. I exist now and I am a contingent thing
2. Every contingent thing has a cause.
3. Causes precede their effects.
4. Therefore 1, 2, and 3
5. If 1, 2, and 3, then there was a non-contingent first cause
6. If there was a non-contingent cause, then God exists
7. Therefore, God exists
x is God = df- x is a Prime Mover and which nothing greater can be conceived.
Why is there something rather than nothing?
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2 baseless assumptions there.
1.There was a non-contingent first cause.
2.That non-contingent first cause was a "God".
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Which premise do you object? 5 and 6?
Do you believe in the Principle of Universal Causation (Every event has a cause)?
c is the cause of e = df-
c and e are wholly distinctive events
c is tomporarly prior to e
c makes e happen
x is a contingent thing = df- x exists but it would be possible for x to fail to exist
x is a non-contingent thing = df. x exists and it would be impossible for x to fail to exist
What is your rationale for rejecting 5? (If that is what you are rejecting)
I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. I see the flaws in the soundness of this argument? Do you?
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Let's keep it simple...
I reject..
6. If there was a non-contingent cause, then God exists
There being a first cause doesn't mean that first cause was "God".
What does "non-contingent" even mean? Contingent means possible but not necessarly true. "Non-Contingent" would then mean impossible? This means a first cause is impossible therefor "God" exists? Maybe there was no "first cause" but a never-ending chain of causes?
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You won't find God with logic.
Belief in God is not logical.
God's exsistence is not based on logic.
Nor is it scientific.
Elohim. Start looking there for fun.
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god, or at least some form of energy/spirit we are unable to comprehend most certainly exists. highly doubtul he bears any relation to any of the gods humans worship
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god, or at least some form of energy/spirit we are unable to comprehend most certainly exists.
Why?
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Why?
Why not?
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Why not?
I don't know of a contingent reason why a "universal god spirit energy" can't exist. I never claimed it can't exist. Though I don't beleive it does.
I'm simply asking the one who claimed it must exist(Cavalier22) to explain why it must exist.
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I'm simply asking the one who claimed it must exist(Cavalier22) to explain why it must exist.
Why should he explain it to a liar and a scare little boy?
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What's with all the name calling on this stupid board? Why can't arguments be strictly based on factual logic?
Anyway, I respect your view Apollo (althouh there is the possiblity I do not agree with it).
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What's with all the name calling on this stupid board? Why can't arguments be strictly based on factual logic?
Have you considered that my assertion is based on factual knowledge?
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"Scared little boy?" I probably agree more with you Ozmo, but I don't see why we can't use the cleanest of logic to make Apollo look incorrect?
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"Scared little boy?" I probably agree more with you Ozmo, but I don't see why we can't use the cleanest of logic to make Apollo look incorrect?
You are right i guess.
"scared little boy" just adds a little "color".
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And it seems Apollo may not like "color." My question is why does an atheist hate minorities? Seems a little ironic.
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And it seems Apollo may not like "color." My question is why does an atheist hate minorities? Seems a little ironic.
Do you know what a "joke" is?
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Cool man. I don't find it funny, but what I do find funny is how many stalkers you have on this website! You're real popular!
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Cool man. I don't find it funny, but what I do find funny is how many stalkers you have on this website! You're real popular!
They just have no lives.