Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Donny on August 31, 2025, 05:48:12 AM
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:)
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Those are some good knowledgeable fellas right there
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Those are some good knowledgeable fellas right there
they do talk sense & obviously sell their training programmes so fair play to them. Iīve never seen anyone who just does say an isolation exercise(s) for chest (say cable flys @ various angles) build a chest like a Bench press/ Decline or Incline press
just doesnīt happen..
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I always mixed in both for my purposes................ ....one surefire way to avoid becoming stale.
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I always mixed in both for my purposes................ ....one surefire way avoid becoming stale.
true Wes but i was just remembering a woman i trained some years back who was training for the German Fire service fitness tests, she left it pretty late with the strength training but was cardio fit.
now i put her on an abbreviated routine of..
parallel Bar dips
supinated chinning the bar
Barbell squats
Burpees & an exercise we called "Bastards" in the Brit army, a Burpee combined with a push up
this got results way faster.
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true Wes but i was just remembering a woman i trained some years back who was training for the German Fire service fitness tests, she left it pretty late with the strength training but was cardio fit.
now i put her on an abbreviated routine of..
parallel Bar dips
supinated chinning the bar
Barbell squats
Burpees & an exercise we called "Bastards" in the Brit army, a Burpee combined with a push up
this got results way faster.
Hell yeah,no question that the basics work.
In my case if I just did squats,benches,standing press,barbell rows,deadlifts,weighted dips,etc. etc.
I`d get bored fast, and knowing my mentality I would have a tendency to go too heavy,too often.
I was still doing doubles and triples on certain moves in my early 60`s.........no reason why,I just liked training the basics heavy..............it was very stupid as I now have 3 bulging discs and arthritis in my neck and lower back.
To each his own my brother! ;)
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Hell yeah,no question that the basics work.
In my case if I just did squats,benches,standing press,barbell rows,deadlifts,weighted dips,etc. etc.
I`d get bored fast, and knowing my mentality I would have a tendency to go too heavy,too often.
To each his own my brother! ;)
I have softened ..i do use bands too :D
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Bands around your hemorrhoids.
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I have softened ..i do use bands too :D
OUTED LOL ;D
Just kidding Donny..........personall y I never used them as I considered them a fad, but I now realize they have a purpose in training.......I get set in my ways when it comes to all this new BS like jumping on boxes,slingshots for benching,and sleds.......which I would never do but I am smart enough to see their value..................t hey`re just not my thing.
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I always mixed in both for my purposes................ ....one surefire way to avoid becoming stale.
Plus best of both worlds.
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OUTED LOL ;D
Just kidding Donny..........personall y I never used them as I considered them a fad, but I now realize they have a purpose in training.......I get set in my ways when it comes to all this new BS like jumping on boxes,slingshots for benching,and sleds.......which I would never do but I am smart enough to see their value..................t hey`re just not my thing.
I stick to basic stuff but i got a set of bands that are quite good & you can hook onto (which i do a wall) .. interchangeable bands of good quality so can tune in the tensions.. however as an old school guy the Bench press will win in my case the Incline.
Incline for the win for that V-T shirt look :D
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I see a lot of beta twinks doing single cable lat isolation movements. Just my observation
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Plus best of both worlds.
For sure.
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I was still doing doubles and triples on certain moves
This is me.
However, I'm not doing them with 95% of max, maybe 80%....so the movement isn't a complete struggle. 10 x 2-3 at 80% seems to be enough to get linear progression for a decent stretch, but not tear me apart.
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This is me.
However, I'm not doing them with 95% of max, maybe 80%....so the movement isn't a complete struggle. 10 x 2-3 at 80% seems to be enough to get linear progression for a decent stretch, but not tear me apart.
Same here..............I use a realistic heavy poundage that I can squeeze out strict reps with.
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This is me.
However, I'm not doing them with 95% of max, maybe 80%....so the movement isn't a complete struggle. 10 x 2-3 at 80% seems to be enough to get linear progression for a decent stretch, but not tear me apart.
Just curious and don't take this in the wrong way as I'm not trying to be a Dick
But have you ever posted a pic of your physique?
A simple yes or no will you coz I got a feeling if it is no you'll say something like I don't need to prove myself to others as infinitum
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Just curious and don't take this in the wrong way as I'm not trying to be a Dick
But have you ever posted a pic of your physique?
A simple yes or no will you coz I got a feeling if it is no you'll say something like I don't need to prove myself to others as infinitum
Troll somewhere else OK
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Nuff said cheif
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Isolation exercises deplete recovery and do not.build muscle
Its as simple as that. Exception being good genetics and using gear in which case anything works.
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Just curious and don't take this in the wrong way as I'm not trying to be a Dick
But have you ever posted a pic of your physique?
A simple yes or no will you coz I got a feeling if it is no you'll say something like I don't need to prove myself to others as infinitum
No, I've stated many times I don't bodybuild, and I don't have the genetic structure to put on size.
Oddly, my shape is likely most similar to yours, except I'm in the 15-16% range, carrying about 175 during the summer, 183 in the winter, at a manlet 5'9". I have better ab structure.
But I don't want to do what it would take to be sub 10% - I get too stringy and look gaunt, and my arms evaporate.
So at my age, using no enhancements, if I can total 900-1000lbs in the big three lifts, run a 40-42 min 5 mile run, and steal an average of 3 bases a game, I'm good, and I couldn't care less what anyone thinks.
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Nothing wrong with isolation per se, but...
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No, I've stated many times I don't bodybuild, and I don't have the genetic structure to put on size.
Oddly, my shape is likely most similar to yours, except I'm in the 15-16% range, carrying about 175 during the summer, 183 in the winter, at a manlet 5'9". I have better ab structure.
But I don't want to do what it would take to be sub 10% - I get too stringy and look gaunt, and my arms evaporate.
So at my age, using no enhancements, if I can total 900-1000lbs in the big three lifts, run a 40-42 min 5 mile run, and steal an average of 3 bases a game, I'm good, and I couldn't care less what anyone thinks.
Well gota give you the tip of the hat for playing cenferfield as they and 3rd basemen are the best athletes in basedull
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I don't see why there has to be a VS do both.
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Compound movements are generally easier on the joints (assuming you don't go crazy heavy or at weird angles). Just my experience.
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I don't see why there has to be a VS do both.
This. Those who do only compound exercises look blocky and weird. Those who only do isolation are usually small.
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No, I've stated many times I don't bodybuild, and I don't have the genetic structure to put on size.
Oddly, my shape is likely most similar to yours, except I'm in the 15-16% range, carrying about 175 during the summer, 183 in the winter, at a manlet 5'9". I have better ab structure.
But I don't want to do what it would take to be sub 10% - I get too stringy and look gaunt, and my arms evaporate.
So at my age, using no enhancements, if I can total 900-1000lbs in the big three lifts, run a 40-42 min 5 mile run, and steal an average of 3 bases a game, I'm good, and I couldn't care less what anyone thinks.
Hey Grape....check these guys out
i=ytihqrTkkF2MOY3f
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But have you ever posted a pic of your physique?
Why should he have to post pic..........tons of people here never have and never will.
If I were you DJ,I`d stop posting pics cuz you look fucking terrible.
you don`t train your entire body,switch drug intake constantly,and can`t stick to a routine training or diet wise,and your ridiculous goals vary from week to week.
No Discipline Of Peace
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I'm with Wes. Do them both. Why not? That works for me. And some bodyparts, it's just real hard not to hit if you don't do a "compound" lift.
Let's use lats as an example for my argument.
Which exercise can take the lats from a fully stretched position, to a contracted position? Like, a nice full ROM?
If you say "pullovers", I can type out five paragraphs of biomechanic shit to show they're not the best at taking lats thru a full ROM. In short, they don't involve scapulo/humeral protraction under load at full stretch. I digress.
You have to put pulldowns/pullups at the top of the list for lats and the big news headline - those are compound lifts. So, the entire debate of "compound vs isolation" kind of falls flat there for me. You can't even really train a key muscle in the body properly without employing a compound lift.
On the flip side, know any compound lifts that train the calves? You know, any calf exercises where you simultaneously flex and extend at the knee while you dorsi-flex at the foot? Of course not. So, are there really any compound exercises for the calves? None that I've seen done consistently. Or said another way, the calves are trained with isolation exercises.
So, isn't this debate all about "do overhead presses work shoulders better than lateral raises", or "bench or fly". That tired, oft-had debate.
As I've aged and continued to study up, I've come to the following ways of thinking:
1. there's enough published literature now to show that it's reasonable to assume a targeted muscle, taken to failure with enough volume, will grow similarly with a compound lift versus an isolation lift. Notice I said "targeted muscle". Not "all the muscles in your body". We've got cross sectional area measurements on targeted muscle. So, if you want to build pecs, and you like benches, go ahead. Or flys...go ahead. Neither is better or worse for targeting the pecs (notice I said "pecs" only), if you take the exercise to or near failure, with enough volume over the week, with good form, blah blah.
2. there's a case to be made that eventually, Father Time weighs in on your workout. You can try to isolate every muscle in a back workout, but you'd do so much total volume it'd be nuts. You'd do 10 weekly sets just for erectors? Another 10 weekly sets just for the teres major? Another 10 against all three divisions of the lats (all whilst deluding yourself you can isolate each division....). You see where I'm going? You'd just create so much systemic fatigue, and probably it'd be more self flagellation than productive for a back workout. Or, do some pullups and some t-bar rows and be done. The greatest gift that compound lifts give us, is that they save time. And eventually, from a physiologic standpoint, even the most dedicated lifters with nothing but time on their hands have to use them, because the body simply won't allow you to do enough meaningful volume for each muscle, each week, using just isolation exercises.
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The way the body works is this, it hates to carry muscle and steongly prefers to carry fat instead. Given this fact you have to give your body a reason to keep extra muscle by exposing it to atimuli and putting it in a do or die scenario essentially. So that, your body thinks some certain task must be somehow overcome with the ability to handle a load it cannot handle. This is how dormant satellite cells are recruited which ultimately mature and fuse with existing muscle cells to create permanent muscle fibers. I tend to call this your "base" and why I can instantly spot bodybuilders who are strong and spent years building their natural base before jumping on gear. Me personally I shrink down to 220lbs without any gear or lifting ans eating whatever I want. I am 5ft9 and when i started lifting at ,14 i weighed 110lbs at 5ft7. I spent over ten years lifting natural and was about 225 when i started messing with steroids.
So, heres the thing with compound exercises and why they work. They allow a target muscle group to be recruited with help from assisting muscles as well as stabilizers. This is truly the only way to push a muscle to real exhaustion, its the most natural way the body mechanics work. As a system.
There are of course exceptions like calves for example. But the bottom line is this, go to the gym and do leg extensions to failure. Go all out. Unless you are a novice your quads wont grow. I think we all know this right? So why do them?
The answer is most bodybuilders have been conditioned to view certain habits as ideal because its what we always see or hear coming from other bodybuilders. But that does not mean they axtually work or are ideal.
An ideal training routine should be constructed around efficiency. Once your body has been given proper stimulus its time to go home. Movements like leg extensions, cable crossovers, dumbell flyes etc do nothing to build muscle. They tax your recovery ability and nothing else.
The best progress my chest ever made was pretty recent just doing flat incline db presses and dips alternated with exactly the zame but with a barbell every 3-4 days.
Another mistake to avoid is training overlap. Dont do squats and leg press in the same workout. Pick one or the other.
Interestingly i do see some room for multiple compound lifts done in the same workout provided they overload the target muscle but offer assistance from different systems. You could make a case for leg press and hack squats as leg presses targeg quads with secondary recruitment from hamstrings while hack squats target glutes with secondary recruitment from quads and hams. If you were worried about longevity you would pre exhaust quads with extensions and you have dorian yates quad routine, which is perfect. You could easily ditch the extensions as well. Personal preference. They are there just to lessen the load on the knees from leg press.
Would Dorian have been as good if he only did rdls for hamstrings? Possibly. But he designed his routine around POF which I also always have with leg curls being mid range rdls being stretch and standing leg curls being peak contracted.
Which brings an interesting point, are isolation movements of any value as far as muscle growth goes? The answer is when used correctly, yes. As long as you target each muscles three positions of flexion and this is actually highly nuanced then yes they are effective but the midrange is the real muscle builder and that is never an isolation exercise.
The most efficient way to train and get the fastest results, my exoerience training 31 years now, is basically how Ronnie Coleman trained. Hit each muscle twice a week, targetting quads then glutes then hams and calves, one exercise per bodypart ideally. Ronnie would split chest into a barbell day and a dumbell day. I might skip flyes but at least never do pec deck or cable crossovers. Back alternates a heavy deadlfting and rowkng workout with pullups or pulldowns and pullovers.
Arms i have gold for anyone willing to listen. Your.biceps and triceps get so much indirect stimulation working back and chest that the midrange criteria is taken care of all thats left is a stretch position and peak contracted. Especially true for biceps if you do palms in pullups for back, which are tough. But after working back incline dumbell curls and dumbell concentration curls are all you need. Its perfect really. After working chest some dumbell behind the head extensions and dumbell kickbacks makes the perfect triceps routine.
3 on 1 off repeat.
Shoulders i usually do once a week after the light back workout. You have to structure your week so that on barbell chest day your shoulders are fresh.
Hope this helps. Comments?
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The way the body works is this, it hates to carry muscle and steongly prefers to carry fat instead. Given this fact you have to give your body a reason to keep extra muscle by exposing it to atimuli and putting it in a do or die scenario essentially. So that, your body thinks some certain task must be somehow overcome with the ability to handle a load it cannot handle. This is how dormant satellite cells are recruited which ultimately mature and fuse with existing muscle cells to create permanent muscle fibers. I tend to call this your "base" and why I can instantly spot bodybuilders who are strong and spent years building their natural base before jumping on gear. Me personally I shrink down to 220lbs without any gear or lifting ans eating whatever I want. I am 5ft9 and when i started lifting at ,14 i weighed 110lbs at 5ft7. I spent over ten years lifting natural and was about 225 when i started messing with steroids.
So, heres the thing with compound exercises and why they work. They allow a target muscle group to be recruited with help from assisting muscles as well as stabilizers. This is truly the only way to push a muscle to real exhaustion, its the most natural way the body mechanics work. As a system.
There are of course exceptions like calves for example. But the bottom line is this, go to the gym and do leg extensions to failure. Go all out. Unless you are a novice your quads wont grow. I think we all know this right? So why do them?
The answer is most bodybuilders have been conditioned to view certain habits as ideal because its what we always see or hear coming from other bodybuilders. But that does not mean they axtually work or are ideal.
An ideal training routine should be constructed around efficiency. Once your body has been given proper stimulus its time to go home. Movements like leg extensions, cable crossovers, dumbell flyes etc do nothing to build muscle. They tax your recovery ability and nothing else.
The best progress my chest ever made was pretty recent just doing flat incline db presses and dips alternated with exactly the zame but with a barbell every 3-4 days.
Another mistake to avoid is training overlap. Dont do squats and leg press in the same workout. Pick one or the other.
Interestingly i do see some room for multiple compound lifts done in the same workout provided they overload the target muscle but offer assistance from different systems. You could make a case for leg press and hack squats as leg presses targeg quads with secondary recruitment from hamstrings while hack squats target glutes with secondary recruitment from quads and hams. If you were worried about longevity you would pre exhaust quads with extensions and you have dorian yates quad routine, which is perfect. You could easily ditch the extensions as well. Personal preference. They are there just to lessen the load on the knees from leg press.
Would Dorian have been as good if he only did rdls for hamstrings? Possibly. But he designed his routine around POF which I also always have with leg curls being mid range rdls being stretch and standing leg curls being peak contracted.
Which brings an interesting point, are isolation movements of any value as far as muscle growth goes? The answer is when used correctly, yes. As long as you target each muscles three positions of flexion and this is actually highly nuanced then yes they are effective but the midrange is the real muscle builder and that is never an isolation exercise.
The most efficient way to train and get the fastest results, my exoerience training 31 years now, is basically how Ronnie Coleman trained. Hit each muscle twice a week, targetting quads then glutes then hams and calves, one exercise per bodypart ideally. Ronnie would split chest into a barbell day and a dumbell day. I might skip flyes but at least never do pec deck or cable crossovers. Back alternates a heavy deadlfting and rowkng workout with pullups or pulldowns and pullovers.
Arms i have gold for anyone willing to listen. Your.biceps and triceps get so much indirect stimulation working back and chest that the midrange criteria is taken care of all thats left is a stretch position and peak contracted. Especially true for biceps if you do palms in pullups for back, which are tough. But after working back incline dumbell curls and dumbell concentration curls are all you need. Its perfect really. After working chest some dumbell behind the head extensions and dumbell kickbacks makes the perfect triceps routine.
3 on 1 off repeat.
Shoulders i usually do once a week after the light back workout. You have to structure your week so that on barbell chest day your shoulders are fresh.
Hope this helps. Comments?
you are aware that your muscles only know stimulus, they have no idea what excercie you are doing.
If you can create the same amout of effort in a cable fly as you can a bench press that why would you think the bench gives you more growth?
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you are aware that your muscles only know stimulus, they have no idea what excercie you are doing.
If you can create the same amout of effort in a cable fly as you can a bench press that why would you think the bench gives you more growth?
Then ..bit early for the booze..no?
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interesting discussion lads- keep it going loads of valid points
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interesting discussion lads- keep it going loads of valid points
you know what, iīm amazed at the people who still believe in the "pouring the pitcher of water" on the side laterals.
Lifting the pinky upwards on the end position (contraction).. no real value in my opinion.
sheīs got an accent :D
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The pinky finger side lateral thing is laughable bro science
file under
toes in / toes out leg extensions
'visualising' growth
breathing squats pullovers
etc
etc
etc
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Shoulders i usually do once a week after the light back workout. You have to structure your week so that on barbell chest day your shoulders are fresh.
Hope this helps. Comments?
the counter argument would be that some muscles recover a lot quicker than others - possibly not just a size issue but possibly also due to typical daily use - they evolved to put up with more stimulus or whatever. To that end it could be argued perhaps stuff like delts and arms could do with more training frequency. How to achieve that without leaving them too fatigued for the compound stuff?
Well what I do (and this is more recent, and bear in mind my shoulders are both awaiting reco surgery soon so I'm limited in what I can do) but I do all pressing and rowing movements on one day (vertical press is out, I can bench ok-ish though) which does activate/stimulate (possibly non optimally - I don't know) delts and upper arms.
Take a day or two off and alternate that with an upper body workout focussed on arms and delt work (mostly lateral raises of various types, cocentration curls (other variants make it feel like my shoulders are about to pop out of the socket) and skull crushers. Another day or two off and repeat with the rows and presses.
Leg stuff I alternate as I please with squats and deads - and if it happens to coincide with an upper body day I'll do them last. Squats I have to use a cambered bar as it just hurts the shoulder joint trying to get my hands any further back and they are at the max width of the collars too. If I'm really fucked after squats I'll possibly miss the deadlifts or switch to a lighter version. If I go 2 sessions in a row like that, I'll actually drop the squats for a session and just do deadlifts, then back to normal next time round
That's something specific to me because relatively my lower body responds to almost anything, so I don't have to prioritise it. For convenience sake, and probably because humans are what they are and love to play tetris, I tend to alternate a total of 3 upper body workouts per week = M W F but I don't lose any sleep if it's not relgiously adhered to. With respect to results - after being cleared to be able to start training at all (injury limitations notwithstanding) my delts don't look atrocious considering zero vertical pressing. my arms respond well enough, and if I am feeling sluggish on the day, it's the arm/delt session that I'd likely back off on to ensure the main push/pull day went well. That said I actually feel sort of refreshed going into the compound upper body day as the last upper body day wasn't as systemically taxing. I'll never be a threat to the competitors on this board but it's at least arguably apparent I lift.
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The pinky finger side lateral thing is laughable bro science
file under
toes in / toes out leg extensions
'visualising' growth
breathing squats pullovers
etc
etc
etc
iīve wrote before about POF training which does have value for some people, leg curls using a pointed toe position (mid range , calves @ 11.28) but this system also uses basic exercises which train all 3 positions.
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however after years of experimenting i personally just do a lift that trains as much as possible without too much time..as the Yanks say ..biggest bang for your bucks.
Squats are King end off..trains it all.
Incline Bench for chest..simple. decline might be better for some
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Why should he have to post pic..........tons of people here never have and never will.
If I were you DJ,I`d stop posting pics cuz you look fucking terrible.
you don`t train your entire body,switch drug intake constantly,and can`t stick to a routine training or diet wise,and your ridiculous goals vary from week to week.
No Discipline Of Peace
:D
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/HUTGH1ESu18AAAAd/bruce-lee.gif)
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Why should he have to post pic..........tons of people here never have and never will.
If I were you DJ,I`d stop posting pics cuz you look fucking terrible.
you don`t train your entire body,switch drug intake constantly,and can`t stick to a routine training or diet wise,and your ridiculous goals vary from week to week.
No Discipline Of Peace
You are outta your fucking mind if you think this looks terrible
Yes it's not world class
But my body looks better than 95% of the male population
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You are outta your fucking mind if you think this looks terrible
Yes it's not world class
But my body looks better than 95% of the male population
haha...turned into a funny thread :D
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haha...turned into a funny thread :D
That is just an utterly ridiculous statement to say that looks FUCKKING terrible 😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😭😭😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣🤣
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That is just an utterly ridiculous statement to say that looks FUCKKING terrible 😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😭😭😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣🤣
DJ ..you got a screw loose ;D
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DJ ..you got a screw loose ;D
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If you've drowning I'm the kinda guy that'll throw you.the rope
But.... I'll throw you both ends
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you are aware that your muscles only know stimulus, they have no idea what excercie you are doing.
If you can create the same amout of effort in a cable fly as you can a bench press that why would you think the bench gives you more growth?
You can not overload your pecs with crossovers, the amount of muscle motor units you can recruit like that is real limited. By contrast you do a bench press and are able to overload the pecs with assistance from other muscle groups. The much heavier load breaks down more tissue which in turn activates satellite cells. I think there are some hormonal pathways that open as well.
Dont get me wrong, you can make a muscle grow with isolation only but it requires hormones and SEO. hence all the fake big bodybuilders we have now competing at pro shows. Take away the synthol and they lose 30+ pounds instantly. And they dont look good, its not the right look to me.
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iīve wrote before about POF training which does have value for some people, leg curls using a pointed toe position (mid range , calves @ 11.28) but this system also uses basic exercises which train all 3 positions.
Ive done POF the last 25 or so years and its always worked very well for me.
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You can not overload your pecs with crossovers, the amount of muscle motor units you can recruit like that is real limited. By contrast you do a bench press and are able to overload the pecs with assistance from other muscle groups. The much heavier load breaks down more tissue which in turn activates satellite cells. I think there are some hormonal pathways that open as well.
Dont get me wrong, you can make a muscle grow with isolation only but it requires hormones and SEO. hence all the fake big bodybuilders we have now competing at pro shows. Take away the synthol and they lose 30+ pounds instantly. And they dont look good, its not the right look to me.
take away the drugs and all bodybuilders shrink, even natty who stop training shrink
the reason is muscles only expand, they dont grow
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Ive done POF the last 25 or so years and its always worked very well for me.
on which muscle group did you find it more effective than others?
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You are outta your fucking mind if you think this looks terrible
Yes it's not world class
But my body looks better than 95% of the male population
(https://i.imgflip.com/z5z8e.jpg)
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:D
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/HUTGH1ESu18AAAAd/bruce-lee.gif)
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/gMCjWROhWecAAAAC/pai-mei-kill-bill.gif)