Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Naked4Jesus on May 26, 2006, 08:29:54 AM
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With so many bodybuilders touting their religious views and declaring the deep religious beliefs, i.e. Melvin Anthony, Ronnie Coleman, Mark Dugale, Flex Wheeler... etc., how do these bodybuilders reconcile their drug use with their religious views? How do they explain to their families, children... mothers... that they are men of God yet take various hormones, drugs to get the kind of huge, freaky muscles that can win shows especially when many of them are also breaking the law to do so? Is jesus ok with lawbreaking, hormone using guys posing in tiny thongs? :-\
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With so many bodybuilders touting their religious views and declaring the deep religious beliefs, i.e. Melvin Anthony, Ronnie Coleman, Mark Dugale, Flex Wheeler... etc., how do these bodybuilders reconcile their drug use with their religious views? How do they explain to their families, children... mothers... that they are men of God yet take various hormones, drugs to get the kind of huge, freaky muscles that can win shows especially when many of them are also breaking the law to do so? Is jesus ok with lawbreaking, hormone using guys posing in tiny thongs? :-\
They just get a physician to break the law by prescribing to them ;D
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They just get a physician to break the law by prescribing to them ;D
That's cool but is Jesus ok with that? Also, what physician will also prescribe clen, duiretics and t3 to them? Last I heard none of those are used in HRT.
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That's cool but is Jesus ok with that? Also, what physician will also prescribe clen, duiretics and t3 to them? Last I heard none of those are used in HRT.
john 4-25 "thou shant stick in thy ass the juice of the atrificial test."
i think moses was the first to get caught at the border of egypt trying to bring GH out with his people.
plus he wrote other commandments not brought down the mountain.
11. do not covet thy neighbors junk or supplies.
12. thou shalt always keester thy junk when in airports
13. a man taking roids who does not share with his brother is not cool
14. never stick thy self twice with the same used needle.
15. if caught by the feds or jesus never givith up your source and becomith a rat.
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With so many bodybuilders touting their religious views and declaring the deep religious beliefs, i.e. Melvin Anthony, Ronnie Coleman, Mark Dugale, Flex Wheeler... etc., how do these bodybuilders reconcile their drug use with their religious views? How do they explain to their families, children... mothers... that they are men of God yet take various hormones, drugs to get the kind of huge, freaky muscles that can win shows especially when many of them are also breaking the law to do so? Is jesus ok with lawbreaking, hormone using guys posing in tiny thongs? :-\
Interesting question. Certainly sounds incompatible.
I always had a hard time with Coleman being a cop, professed Christian, and steroid abuser. Not sure how he and others reconcile drug use with their Christianity.
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The thing about these "mega-christians" not only bodybuilders is that they get over emotional talking about Jesus and all that and that seems to be enough. Especially Coleman but they don't walk the walk aparently. They say that God helps them do what they do but why would God favor one bodybuilder to another? God currently doesn't intervene in wars and terrorism and such. why would he intervene in a bodybuilder's physique? Right it was God who gave you hamstrings... get real. Hey Ronnie if you're so Jesus and God loving why do you listen to that dirty cursing music? Why did you juice as a cop? Why do you say mean things to other competitors like call them crackheads? Why are you a sore loser when you lost to Gunter? That's not very Jesus-like is it? You're not what you say. You are what you do.
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The thing about these "mega-christians" not only bodybuilders is that they get over emotional talking about Jesus and all that and that seems to be enough. Especially Coleman but they don't walk the walk aparently. They say that God helps them do what they do but why would God favor one bodybuilder to another? God currently doesn't intervene in wars and terrorism and such. why would he intervene in a bodybuilder's physique? Right it was God who gave you hamstrings... get real. Hey Ronnie if you're so Jesus and God loving why do you listen to that dirty cursing music? Why did you juice as a cop? Why do you say mean things to other competitors like call them crackheads? Why are you a sore loser when you lost to Gunter? That's not very Jesus-like is it? You're not what you say. You are what you do.
My guess is that most of these "Christians" aren't that well scholared on what Christianity means. They believe in a god, and it so just happens that it is the Christian one. Just like people who shouts out that they're on "Team Jesus"...
Would like to see Melvin Anthony on this board. He's scholared in Christianity. Would be interesting to see his take on these issues, and others.
YIP
Zack
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blaine says it`s ok to juice
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People can rationalize anything. I'm a Christian yet I average 80+ on the highway which is breaking the law in my state. I also do many other things I'm not supposed to do.
Christians realize their need for a Savior and have accepted Jesus as such. Christians thank God for what they believe is good in their lives and are thankful for the Grace that He extends to us.
Does that mean we should think we can freely sin? No, it grieves God when we do and we will probably be disciplined for our sins while still on earth.
Just as I will possibly get a ticket or die in a horrible (hopefully one-car) car accident, some bodybuilders will pay the price with their health.
When you become a Christian your free will is still intact, and our "flesh" is prone to sin.
Interesting though how people hold Christians to a higher standard than others and expect them to be perfect. The whole reason we are Christians is because we KNOW we are NOT perfect. I guess I can understand this if someone comes off as "holier-than-thou and condescending....of course their hypocrisy would stand out more.
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People can rationalize anything. I'm a Christian yet I average 80+ on the highway which is breaking the law in my state. I also do many other things I'm not supposed to do.
Christians realize their need for a Savior and have accepted Jesus as such. Christians thank God for what they believe is good in their lives and are thankful for the Grace that He extends to us.
Does that mean we should think we can freely sin? No, it grieves God when we do and we will probably be disciplined for our sins while still on earth.
Just as I will possibly get a ticket or die in a horrible (hopefully one-car) car accident, some bodybuilders will pay the price with their health.
When you become a Christian your free will is still intact, and our "flesh" is prone to sin.
Interesting though how people hold Christians to a higher standard than others and expect them to be perfect. The whole reason we are Christians is because we KNOW we are NOT perfect. I guess I can understand this if someone comes off as "holier-than-thou and condescending....of course their hypocrisy would stand out more.
STella's dog?...
(http://www.claringtonclassics.ca/Images/scrapbook/Dog%20with%20Fast%20Driver.jpg)
;D
On a serious note, consider the things that STella say's, guys. It may help you some day.
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People can rationalize anything. I'm a Christian yet I average 80+ on the highway which is breaking the law in my state. I also do many other things I'm not supposed to do.
Christians realize their need for a Savior and have accepted Jesus as such. Christians thank God for what they believe is good in their lives and are thankful for the Grace that He extends to us.
Does that mean we should think we can freely sin? No, it grieves God when we do and we will probably be disciplined for our sins while still on earth.
Just as I will possibly get a ticket or die in a horrible (hopefully one-car) car accident, some bodybuilders will pay the price with their health.
When you become a Christian your free will is still intact, and our "flesh" is prone to sin.
Interesting though how people hold Christians to a higher standard than others and expect them to be perfect. The whole reason we are Christians is because we KNOW we are NOT perfect. I guess I can understand this if someone comes off as "holier-than-thou and condescending....of course their hypocrisy would stand out more.
What really puzzles me in regards to Christians, and how they try to live they life, generally speaking of course, is how so many are trying to find alternative interpretations in the Bible for stuff like "Turn the other cheek" and "He who is without sin shall cast the first stone".
Living a life where you try to forgive your neighbors sins is very hard. But from what I understand, Jesus asks for a lot from his followers.
Seeing how so many Christians are in support of death penalty, long imprisonments and such doesn't make sense. Why shouldn't these Christians be in support of ridding of all penalties? Seems to be an awful lot of support for that notion in the Bible.
YIP
Zack
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With so many bodybuilders touting their religious views and declaring the deep religious beliefs, i.e. Melvin Anthony, Ronnie Coleman, Mark Dugale, Flex Wheeler... etc., how do these bodybuilders reconcile their drug use with their religious views? How do they explain to their families, children... mothers... that they are men of God yet take various hormones, drugs to get the kind of huge, freaky muscles that can win shows especially when many of them are also breaking the law to do so? Is Jesus OK with lawbreaking, hormone using guys posing in tiny thongs? :-\
This is actually a good question. They talk about Jesus, the Lord, the Bible etc. Nothing wrong with that, but...
if you read the Bible there are many things there that these guys should think about. Breaking the law,
destroying their own body(steroids, GH - and the list goes on)
Maybe they should tone down their own religious beliefs.
Juicing for Jesus!
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What really puzzles me in regards to Christians, and how they try to live they life, generally speaking of course, is how so many are trying to find alternative interpretations in the Bible for stuff like "Turn the other cheek" and "He who is without sin shall cast the first stone".
Living a life where you try to forgive your neighbors sins is very hard. But from what I understand, Jesus asks for a lot from his followers.
Seeing how so many Christians are in support of death penalty, long imprisonments and such doesn't make sense. Why shouldn't these Christians be in support of ridding of all penalties? Seems to be an awful lot of support for that notion in the Bible.
YIP
Zack
Forgiveness doesn't mean that people shouldn't be disciplined for wrong behavior. I don't have a strong opinion of the death penalty but I do favor long imprisonments for some. For instance, child molesters, rapists, serial killers etc. Maybe if someone that was close to me was brutally murdered would I be in favor of the death penalty for the murderer? I don't know.
People like the above cannot just be forgiven and set loose to run free and repeat their crimes.
But forgiving someone is quite beneficial to the "forgiver" also. When you forgive someone, the perceived wrong they committed against you won't be on your mind as much. It won't eat you up inside and make you a bitter person. He who angers you controls you.
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Forgiveness doesn't mean that people shouldn't be disciplined for wrong behavior. I don't have a strong opinion of the death penalty but I do favor long imprisonments for some. For instance, child molesters, rapists, serial killers etc. Maybe if someone that was close to me was brutally murdered would I be in favor of the death penalty for the murderer? I don't know.
People like the above cannot just be forgiven and set loose to run free and repeat their crimes.
But forgiving someone is quite beneficial to the "forgiver" also. When you forgive someone, the perceived wrong they committed against you won't be on your mind as much. It won't eat you up inside and make you a bitter person. He who angers you controls you.
I love it when Christians are trying to apply rational reason upon Christianity, kind of trying to find "outs".
"This and that sin is big enough to not be flat out forgiven"... Yeah, sure.
Nothing wrong with not being able to find it within yourself to forgive terrible sins, crimes et al.
But acknowledge that no matter how terrible the sin, you as a Christian is supposed to just turn the other cheek.
If you are able to do that, is another matter.
YIP
Zack
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I love it when Christians are trying to apply rational reason upon Christianity, kind of trying to find "outs".
"This and that sin is big enough to not be flat out forgiven"... Yeah, sure.
Nothing wrong with not being able to find it within yourself to forgive terrible sins, crimes et al.
But acknowledge that no matter how terrible the sin, you as a Christian is supposed to just turn the other cheek.
If you are able to do that, is another matter.
YIP
Zack
It's always been interesting to me how the "same god" who destroyed the inhabitants of sodom for being "wicked", Told Moses to murder 3000 men, women, and childred for being insecure, Instructed Joshua to kill every living thing, men women and children, and loot in the city of Ai and then tells you to turn the other cheek while he spurs on about it being a sin to kill.
God sets a great example.
No wonder why chirstians are confused.
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What really puzzles me in regards to Christians, and how they try to live they life, generally speaking of course, is how so many are trying to find alternative interpretations in the Bible for stuff like "Turn the other cheek" and "He who is without sin shall cast the first stone".
Living a life where you try to forgive your neighbors sins is very hard. But from what I understand, Jesus asks for a lot from his followers.
Seeing how so many Christians are in support of death penalty, long imprisonments and such doesn't make sense. Why shouldn't these Christians be in support of ridding of all penalties? Seems to be an awful lot of support for that notion in the Bible.
YIP
Zack
The Bible actually says to "be angry," but don't sin. I think what that means is there is nothing wrong with getting angry when, for example, someone steals from you. Anger is a normal human emotion. It's what you do with that anger that counts. So, if someone breaks into my house, I'll be pretty angry, but I'll call the police, and pursue criminal charges. I wouldn't find the person and try to burn down their house.
There is nothing nonsensical about supporting the criminal justice system. The Bible doesn't support anarchy. Not sure where you're getting that from.
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It's always been interesting to me how the "same god" who destroyed the inhabitants of sodom for being "wicked", Told Moses to murder 3000 men, women, and childred for being insecure, Instructed Joshua to kill every living thing, men women and children, and loot in the city of Ai and then tells you to turn the other cheek while he spurs on about it being a sin to kill.
God sets a great example.
No wonder why chirstians are confused.
Christians are confused? How so? I'm not.
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Christians are confused? How so? I'm not.
sorry :) "some" christians may be confused.
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sorry :) "some" christians may be confused.
O.K. I can live with that. :)
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I don't follow the laws of men.
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I posted about this hypocrisy earlier this afternoon in the Dugdale----Why train for fifth place thread on the General Discussion forum.
If you're using illegal substances, then you're going against the laws of God. Simple as that.
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"This and that sin is big enough to not be flat out forgiven"... Yeah, sure.
Who are you quoting here? Not me, right? If so, could you clarify what you mean by this because either you misunderstood me or I didn't explain myself well.
But acknowledge that no matter how terrible the sin, you as a Christian is supposed to just turn the other cheek.
Hedgie, if you read more than just the "turn the other cheek" verse you'll see that Christ was teaching proper Christian conduct in the world and in the midst of hypocritical religious leaders (Pharisees).
The Pharisees knew the law and claimed to follow it to a T. They were hypocrites and very judgemental, telling others what they could and could not do, and exactly how they should act, while not even following their own teachings.
Before telling the people about "turning the other cheek," Jesus tells the people: "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'"
This is what God instructed in His O.T. law which was intended for enforcement by the civil government.
The Pharisees tried to institute it as a "personal thing." They tried to take each and every law and apply it to every part of life. They taught that personal revenge is law.
That wasn't God's intention....the right of "revenge" is not to be put in our hands (even though we would like it to be sometimes).
Revenge and punishment are supposed to be in the hands of God and civil government (judges etc).
"Turning the other cheek" means to not avenge ourselves (we'd probably mess it up anyway), and leave it to God and our present legal system.
So, if someone breaks into my house, I'll be pretty angry, but I'll call the police, and pursue criminal charges. I wouldn't find the person and try to burn down their house.
exactly
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Revenge and punishment are supposed to be in the hands of God and civil government (judges etc).
"Turning the other cheek" means to not avenge ourselves (we'd probably mess it up anyway), and leave it to God and our present legal system.
You make the assumption that Jesus has faith in the present legal system. Why?
Look at the rest of Matt 5:38-41...
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
Looks to me that Jesus preaches about giving. And if you give, that this will create enlightment.
So once again, how a Christian can accept even the slightest imprisonment for anyone is beyond me. The very idea of imprisonment goes against the idea of Christianity.
If a criminal decides to continue with evil deeds, then a true Christian have no right to forcefully stop him. He can only try to convince the criminal with love.
Jesus was a lover.
YIP
Zack
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You make the assumption that Jesus has faith in the present legal system. Why?
Look at the rest of Matt 5:38-41...
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
Looks to me that Jesus preaches about giving. And if you give, that this will create enlightment.
So once again, how a Christian can accept even the slightest imprisonment for anyone is beyond me. The very idea of imprisonment goes against the idea of Christianity.
If a criminal decides to continue with evil deeds, then a true Christian have no right to forcefully stop him. He can only try to convince the criminal with love.
Jesus was a lover.
So the idea of christianity does not include the teachings and examples in the old testiment in regards to punishment?
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So the idea of christianity does not include the teachings and examples in the old testiment in regards to punishment?
If the old testiment is in conflict with Jesus preachings, then the word of Jesus triumphs.
Why? Because he's part of the Trinity, son of God. Messiah doesn't occur in the Old testiment. The only part in the Old testiment that rivals, is the Ten Commandments, since they are the only part in the whole Bible which are the direct words of God.
Christianity is based on the very existance of Jesus Christ and his teachings. Old Testiment works great as backbone, but is primarily where the Jews will find guidance.
YIP
Zack
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So the idea of christianity does not include the teachings and examples in the old testiment in regards to punishment?
No. You can't pick and choose. If old testament teachings with regard to punishment are relevant, than so should be the commandments with regards to keeping kosher, etc...
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If the old testiment is in conflict with Jesus preachings, then the word of Jesus triumphs.
Exactly...thank you!
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If the old testiment is in conflict with Jesus preachings, then the word of Jesus triumphs.
Why? Because he's part of the Trinity, son of God. Messiah doesn't occur in the Old testiment. The only part in the Old testiment that rivals, is the Ten Commandments, since they are the only part in the whole Bible which are the direct words of God.
Christianity is based on the very existance of Jesus Christ and his teachings. Old Testiment works great as backbone, but is primarily where the Jews will find guidance.
YIP
Zack
So then the bible is in contradiction with its self?
why not just throw out the entire old testiment?
It's alot better then just picking and choosing what versus support your dogma.
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No. You can't pick and choose. If old testament teachings with regard to punishment are relevant, than so should be the commandments with regards to keeping kosher, etc...
Teachings on punishment relavent to what?
You are picking and choosing if you ignore or discount or diminish any O.T. teachings in favor of Jesus.
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If the old testiment is in conflict with Jesus preachings, then the word of Jesus triumphs.
Then the Bible is not the word of God. less he speaks in 2 directions
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hedgehog it is not in conflict. if you think it is you don't understand. the trinity is not supported by the old or new testament.
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hedgehog it is not in conflict. if you think it is you don't understand. the trinity is not supported by the old or new testament.
Sounds like you watch too much the matrix movies.. :-\
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hedgehog it is not in conflict. if you think it is you don't understand. the trinity is not supported by the old or new testament.
It isn't? Then who is it supported by? The Catholic Chruch with their track record?
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i defy anyone to prove the trinity doctrine is biblical.
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Teachings on punishment relavent to what?
Ummm...relevant to what I thought you were talking about a few posts ago? Maybe I misunderstood.
You are picking and choosing if you ignore or discount or diminish any O.T. teachings in favor of Jesus.
Maybe you should go back and read Leviticus and also parts of Deuteronomy before you say that. I'm not arguing here. My questions have already been answered to my satisfaction.
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it's not that i wanna argue with anyone or say haha i'm right you're wrong. i don't care about that. what bothers me is how what is today perceived as christianity is actually preventing a lot of would be believers. not only the conduct of religious people and hypocracy but also teachings such as trinity which contradict the old testament and are just things that are misunderstood about the new testament. if you believe it and want to know why i don't i'll tell you. if you wanna show me why it is biblical then show me.
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You make the assumption that Jesus has faith in the present legal system. Why?
YIP
Zack
For one reason, because He is God who is omniscient.
For another:
Daniel 4:17 "....the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes...."
Romans 13:1 "......there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
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it's not that i wanna argue with anyone or say haha i'm right you're wrong. i don't care about that. what bothers me is how what is today perceived as christianity is actually preventing a lot of would be believers. not only the conduct of religious people and hypocracy but also teachings such as trinity which contradict the old testament and are just things that are misunderstood about the new testament. if you believe it and want to know why i don't i'll tell you. if you wanna show me why it is biblical then show me.
Hey gibberj2, that is a good idea for it's own thread! Do you want to start it? :)
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Look at the rest of Matt 5:38-41...
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
Looks to me that Jesus preaches about giving. And if you give, that this will create enlightment.
So once again, how a Christian can accept even the slightest imprisonment for anyone is beyond me. The very idea of imprisonment goes against the idea of Christianity.
If a criminal decides to continue with evil deeds, then a true Christian have no right to forcefully stop him. He can only try to convince the criminal with love.
Jesus was a lover.
YIP
Zack
I found this @ desiringgod.org. It explains pretty closely how I feel about the "turn the other cheek" statement :)
What about turning the other cheek?
What, now, are we to make of Jesus' radical commands in Matthew 5:39-41? "Do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. And whoever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two." How does this fit with what we have seen above?
First, we need to clarify what the problem is not. The problem is not that Jesus appears to be telling us to lie down and let evil overtake us. That is clearly not what he is saying. Instead, he is telling us what it looks like "not [to] be overcome by evil, but [to] overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:21). We have all seen the wisdom of Jesus' words here in our everyday lives. Much of the time, the most effective way to overcome evil is by not resisting. If someone says a mean word, it is far more effective to respond with kindness than with another mean word in return. If someone tries wrongly to cut you off on the freeway, it is usually best just to let them do it. If we would learn these principles, our lives would be much more peaceful and, ironically, we would be vindicated more often.
So the problem is not that it looks as though Jesus is telling us to let evil steam-roll over us. The problem is that it looks like Jesus is telling us that the only way we should ever seek to overcome evil is by letting it go and responding with kindness. It looks as though he leaves no place for using force in resisting evil.
Part of the answer to this difficulty lies in understanding the hyperbolic nature of much of the Sermon on the Mount. I don't think that Jesus is telling us never to respond to evil with force (such as in self-defense) or always to literally turn the other cheek when we are slapped any more than his command later in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 6:6 means that we should only pray when we are completely alone or his command in 5:29 means that some should literally gouge out their eyes. Jesus himself drove the thieves away from the temple with a whip (John 2:15) and Paul at times insisted on his rights as a Roman citizen (Acts 25:11; cf. also the interesting instance of 16:35-40). Jesus is using hyperbole to illustrate what our primary disposition and attitude should be, not to say that we should literally give in to every attempt to do evil against us. That is part of the answer.
The main part of the answer, however, lies in remembering that Jesus is speaking primarily to individuals. He is not mainly addressing governments here, but is primarily speaking at the personal level. This text, then, shows that an individual's primary response to evil should be to "turn the other cheek," while the other texts we have seen (e.g., Romans 13:3-4) show that government's God-given responsibility is to punish those who commit civil crimes (murder, terrorism, acts of war, etc.).
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For one reason, because He is God who is omniscient.
For another:
Daniel 4:17 "....the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes...."
Romans 13:1 "......there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
So God established the inqusition? Germany's facist government? The catholic church who killed 50 million people ove rthe years when they had direct influence in the affairs of countries? This list of "evil" governements could go on for ever.
The authorities that exsisted then and now were established by men. these would love to use GOD's name to give them justification and vaildation, but the truth remains.
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Well I'd rather not. sometimes I see stuff in here and I'm tempted to throw in my say but normally I don't like to talk about these things online. espcially in the looney bin... I mean Getbig.com :D
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Where's Johnny when you need him, lol.
I don't beleive that being on the sauce is related to lving your life according to doctrine.
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johnny's a fraud. and he's got a lot of people fooled like he knows something.
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um, it was a joke. Simmer down! lol
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I found this @ desiringgod.org. It explains pretty closely how I feel about the "turn the other cheek" statement :)
What about turning the other cheek?
What, now, are we to make of Jesus' radical commands in Matthew 5:39-41? "Do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. And whoever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two." How does this fit with what we have seen above?
First, we need to clarify what the problem is not. The problem is not that Jesus appears to be telling us to lie down and let evil overtake us. That is clearly not what he is saying. Instead, he is telling us what it looks like "not [to] be overcome by evil, but [to] overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:21). We have all seen the wisdom of Jesus' words here in our everyday lives. Much of the time, the most effective way to overcome evil is by not resisting. If someone says a mean word, it is far more effective to respond with kindness than with another mean word in return. If someone tries wrongly to cut you off on the freeway, it is usually best just to let them do it. If we would learn these principles, our lives would be much more peaceful and, ironically, we would be vindicated more often.
So the problem is not that it looks as though Jesus is telling us to let evil steam-roll over us. The problem is that it looks like Jesus is telling us that the only way we should ever seek to overcome evil is by letting it go and responding with kindness. It looks as though he leaves no place for using force in resisting evil.
Part of the answer to this difficulty lies in understanding the hyperbolic nature of much of the Sermon on the Mount. I don't think that Jesus is telling us never to respond to evil with force (such as in self-defense) or always to literally turn the other cheek when we are slapped any more than his command later in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 6:6 means that we should only pray when we are completely alone or his command in 5:29 means that some should literally gouge out their eyes. Jesus himself drove the thieves away from the temple with a whip (John 2:15) and Paul at times insisted on his rights as a Roman citizen (Acts 25:11; cf. also the interesting instance of 16:35-40). Jesus is using hyperbole to illustrate what our primary disposition and attitude should be, not to say that we should literally give in to every attempt to do evil against us. That is part of the answer.
The main part of the answer, however, lies in remembering that Jesus is speaking primarily to individuals. He is not mainly addressing governments here, but is primarily speaking at the personal level. This text, then, shows that an individual's primary response to evil should be to "turn the other cheek," while the other texts we have seen (e.g., Romans 13:3-4) show that government's God-given responsibility is to punish those who commit civil crimes (murder, terrorism, acts of war, etc.).
Here's the thing Stella.
It's convenient to have someone else interpret the Bible when the message in it seems hard to follow, when the original message would make you sacrifice the good life.
Let me ask you this question:
Why should the text be interpreted so heavily? What could be easier than to follow instructions on offering other gifts for those who want to take your possessions?
Turning the other cheek.
Instead of trying to twist the words of Jesus, why aren't Christians just simply acknowledging how difficult these instructions are, but they will try to follow them as often they can?
Where in the Bible does it say that it's easy to follow the righteous path?
Instead of broadening the path, why not try walking the path and have faith in the eternal love that God has for all his children?
YIP
Zack
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Here's the thing Stella.
It's convenient to have someone else interpret the Bible when the message in it seems hard to follow, when the original message would make you sacrifice the good life.
Let me ask you this question:
Why should the text be interpreted so heavily? What could be easier than to follow instructions on offering other gifts for those who want to take your possessions?
Turning the other cheek.
Instead of trying to twist the words of Jesus, why aren't Christians just simply acknowledging how difficult these instructions are, but they will try to follow them as often they can?
Where in the Bible does it say that it's easy to follow the righteous path?
Instead of broadening the path, why not try walking the path and have faith in the eternal love that God has for all his children?
YIP
Zack
I think the easy interpretation is that when He referred to "turn the other cheek" it was in personal relationships.
It's not easy to live our lives in the way we should (not sin etc), in fact, it's impossible! That why we need a savior.
And you're right, having God's grace is what saves us and keeps us saved :D
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guys come on. turning the other cheek is not to return bad for bad. But Christians are still supposed to follow the law unless the law is that you can't worship or something.
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There is nothing inherently contradictory about being a Christian and a sinner. Many of Jesus's earliest followers, such as Matthew and Mary Magdalene, were sinners.
The problem is that many of these sinful Christians are the ones who are most judgemental about others. Their blind "faith" in Jesus is somehow supposed to wash away all the bad things they've done in life. In fact, they feel superior to others simply by virtue of the fact that they are fanatical Christians. If any of these idiots ever read the Bible, they would realize that Christ despised hypocrites.
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There is nothing inherently contradictory about being a Christian and a sinner. Many of Jesus's earliest followers, such as Matthew and Mary Magdalene, were sinners.
The problem is that many of these sinful Christians are the ones who are most judgemental about others. Their blind "faith" in Jesus is somehow supposed to wash away all the bad things they've done in life. In fact, they feel superior to others simply by virtue of the fact that they are fanatical Christians. If any of these idiots ever read the Bible, they would realize that Christ despised hypocrites.
Hmm very well said. Also that might include Paul
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Well for those born again Christians, pentecostals etc: who take the bible literally they need to read the old testament too. According to that any woman in public on her period should be stoned to death. If you eat shellfish its an abomination to God. Sex outside of wedlock bad too. Looks like a lot of people are going to hell.
Steroids are a drug too but its how you use it. If you are not harming your body why not. There is very little evidence out there that steroids are directly linked to most of the life threatning health issues. You have to take a huge amount of the juice.
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Sauce is only a small part of the problem.
Taking pride in your appearance is one thing but body building requires a great deal of vanity--hardly a Christian virtue. Indeed it is one of the “seven deadly sins.” Your goal in bodybuilding is not merely to achieve (cosmetic) physical conditioning, it is to be looked at, admired, and, yes, even worshipped. This doesn’t just happen on stage or in magazines. This latter characterization is underscored by posing for a venue like musclegallery.com; a company that specializes in homoerotica and muscle worship videos. And don’t get me started in private posing . . .
http://musclegallery.com/mark_dugdale/index.htm
Part of what makes body building problematic is that it is based entirely on the superficial. You don’t have big muscles in order to do something (run fast, jump, lift heavy, etc.) you have them simply for the sake of showing them off; you build and build yourself up, but for no possible purpose. The proliferation of synthol and implants scarcely warrant comment.
I’m not saying you can’t be a Christian and enjoy sports, but professional bodybuilidng? very selective Christianity.
Here’s a serious question: why do Christians love to tell people they are Christians? Who are they trying to convince? We have a saying where I come from, “Don’t listen to what people say; listen to what they do.” If you are a Christian, all you need do is walk the walk. Don’t talk the talk.
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Sauce is only a small part of the problem.
Indeed it is one of the “seven deadly sins.”
Hi Bay and welcome! :D
I think the "seven deadly sins" is a Catholic tradition type thing and not necessarily a biblical teaching.
The bible teaches that ANY sin (even lying!) makes someone a sinner and unable to stand in the presence of God (this would mean that we couldn't be w/Him in heaven for eternity). But He made a way for us sinners to become "holy" by accepting His Son as our Savior (in which case all who do can be w/God in heaven for eternity!).
So I guess, according to the bible, any sin would be a "deadly" sin. So I'm not really sure about the Catholic tradition Seven deadly sins thing.
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The history of the 7 deadly sins is irrelevant; the noteworthy point is that excessive vanity is wrong by almost any measure in any belief system and excessive vanity is an integral party of bodybuilding. I think bodybuilders who extol their Christianity are terrible hypocrites.
I still have to laugh when I remember that someone here claimed Dugdale didn’t know what he was posing for when he signed on with musclegallery.com ha ha ha
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The history of the 7 deadly sins is irrelevant; the noteworthy point is that excessive vanity is wrong by almost any measure in any belief system and excessive vanity is an integral party of bodybuilding. I think bodybuilders who extol their Christianity are terrible hypocrites.
I still have to laugh when I remember that someone here claimed Dugdale didn’t know what he was posing for when he signed on with musclegallery.com ha ha ha
Bay, you make a very grave, but extremely common mistake. Christianity and Hypocrisy are inseparable, i.e., they are not separate entitities. It's fallable to believe that Christians are not hypocritical. We are ALL hypocrites. There's no way around it! This is the reason Christ died for us.
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Bay, you make a very grave, but extremely common mistake. Christianity and Hypocrisy are inseparable, i.e., they are not separate entitities. It's fallable to believe that Christians are not hypocritical. We are ALL hypocrites. There's no way around it! This is the reason Christ died for us.
I believe every person on earth is a hypcrite to some degree. Including myself of course. :-[
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I believe every person on earth is a hypcrite to some degree. Including myself of course. :-[
Check my name off on the list too. :-[
;)
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I believe every person on earth is a hypcrite to some degree. Including myself of course. :-[
So you are saying it's impossible to be a hypcirtical hypcrite?
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Your body is supposed to be a temple of God. Why not make it as best of temple as you can. As far as vanity yes there is vanity involved but if that vanity is not getting in the way of you respecting others. Then there is no problem. Its us guys (not me) but other muscleheads as people call is that are cruel to others not in good shape ie fat skinny etc:
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Bay, you make a very grave, but extremely common mistake. Christianity and Hypocrisy are inseparable, i.e., they are not separate entitities. It's fallable to believe that Christians are not hypocritical. We are ALL hypocrites. There's no way around it! This is the reason Christ died for us.
The only mistake I see is people repeatedly proclaiming their alleged Christianity for all to hear. Everyone has personal beliefs; why do so many Christians feel the need to declare this belief so loudly and often? You don’t hear this nearly as often from people with other (or no) beliefs.
A biblical verse is applicable here: you shall know a tree by the fruit which it bears. In other words, show your beliefs through actions—not through running your mouth.
The necessary vanity characteristic of bodybuilding is wholly inconsistent with Christian values.
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So you are saying it's impossible to be a hypcirtical hypcrite?
???
The only mistake I see is people repeatedly proclaiming their alleged Christianity for all to hear. Everyone has personal beliefs; why do so many Christians feel the need to declare this belief so loudly and often? You don’t hear this nearly as often from people with other (or no) beliefs.
A biblical verse is applicable here: you shall know a tree by the fruit which it bears. In other words, show your beliefs through actions—not through running your mouth.
Bay, I think that some Christians declare their beliefs in an attempt at subtle evangelism. They'll say something about God that they hope the hearer will receive and turn around and ask them about their beliefs. I feel that people that engage in this type of subtle evangelism don't want to be "preachy" or make anyone uncomfortable, but offer the listener an opportunity to hear more if they so choose.
And in general I think Christians want to share the Good News because we believe what the bible says is true.....that we are all sinners in need of a savior. And we want to tell who it is.
I can totally understand your distaste in the reality of hypocritical Christians. But I wonder if you've been on the receiving end of some "holier-than-thou" finger pointing judgemental BS? That stuff is revolting to me also!
People that do that are commiting the sin of Pride which is the sin that started ALL the sins to begin with!
One of my friends that is in this industry whose "Christian" cousin was always telling her she was going to hell because she was in this business. Well, according to the bible, my friend was on her way to hell when she told her first lie (if that was her first sin). The cousin evidently just put my friend down and my friend just wanted to get away from her. I don't blame her a bit! Later when my friend heard that Jesus accepts you just the way you are and loves you unconditionally and will forgive your sins if you want Him to, she accepted Him as her savior. :D
The necessary vanity characteristic of bodybuilding is wholly inconsistent with Christian values.
Every Christian does something every day that is wholly inconsistent w/Christian values. Don't look at us as your guide, delve into the life of Christ in the Scriptures. He lived a perfect, righteous life. We are unable to do that while still in our fleshly bodies.
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???
Bay, I think that some Christians declare their beliefs in an attempt at subtle evangelism. They'll say something about God that they hope the hearer will receive and turn around and ask them about their beliefs. I feel that people that engage in this type of subtle evangelism don't want to be "preachy" or make anyone uncomfortable, but offer the listener an opportunity to hear more if they so choose.
That’s a nice spin, but I don’t’ buy it. I know lots of people (gay and straight) who are practicing Christians and they do not make it a point to announce their alleged Christianity in settings where it is inappropriate to do so. (Is a bodybuilding website or competition the right venue to declare one’s religion?) The Christians I respect show their faith through their behavior… the values they hold… the way they treat other people…
The last thing I want to hear is a steroid (ab)using bodybuilder who “private poses” on the side when his wife isn’t looking declaring his “Christianity.”
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That’s a nice spin, but I don’t’ buy it. I know lots of people (gay and straight) who are practicing Christians and they do not make it a point to announce their alleged Christianity in settings where it is inappropriate to do so. (Is a bodybuilding website or competition the right venue to declare one’s religion?) The Christians I respect show their faith through their behavior… the values they hold… the way they treat other people…
The last thing I want to hear is a steroid (ab)using bodybuilder who “private poses” on the side when his wife isn’t looking declaring his “Christianity.”
OK, how about this: some people do it for "subtle evangelism."
some do it to act superior
some do it because they just talk a lot
some do it because that's the most important thing in their life
etc etc
Why shouldn't people have a right to declare their religion in any venue? Who cares? I guess I don't understand why it bothers you so much Bay.
"Is a bodybuilding website the right venue to declare one's relig?" = All kinds of things are declared on here that have nothing to do w/bodybuilding.
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I never said they didn’t have “the right” to do so; I merely question the credibility of those who do. In my experience, the people who often do this tend to be very poorly schooled in Christ’s teachings, his life, or the history of the gospels. And they lead lives that would make Jesus shed many a tear. In other words, they tend to be very cosmetic Christians.
I happen to have some experience in hermeneutics and whenever I engage people on the subject the veil of their brand of Christianity quickly gives way to ignorance. Christianity for most of these people (the people who talk about it so much) is little more than a window treatment; they know and care little about the substance of the faith.
If I want to know about precontest dieting, I’ll go to a bodybuilder. If I want to know about Christianity I’ll turn to a more informed source than a bodybuilder prostituting himself for a few dollars.
We have another saying where I come from: the empty barrel makes the most noise.
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hermeneutics
I had to look this word up! :-[
If I want to know about Christianity I’ll turn to a more informed source than a bodybuilder prostituting himself for a few dollars.
I think that's a wise positition to take. The best source IMO, is to read the bible yourself. :)
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That’s a nice spin, but I don’t’ buy it. I know lots of people (gay and straight) who are practicing Christians and they do not make it a point to announce their alleged Christianity in settings where it is inappropriate to do so. (Is a bodybuilding website or competition the right venue to declare one’s religion?) The Christians I respect show their faith through their behavior… the values they hold… the way they treat other people…
The last thing I want to hear is a steroid (ab)using bodybuilder who “private poses” on the side when his wife isn’t looking declaring his “Christianity.”
I view this a couple ways. On one hand, I think athletes often exploit religion. This might make another good topic, but I really hate when players thank God for helping them knock someone else's block off. The praying in the end zone is nonsense. The "God helped me win" language is nonsense. A bodybuilder who broke the law to achieve his or her physique thanking God for success is nonsense. But I digress. :)
On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with someone being happy about their faith and wanting to share it with others.
That said, I don't wear my religion on my sleeve and, absent a forum like this where people come to discuss a religious topic, I don't talk about religion unless some asks me. I'm a firm believer in others seeing God in your conduct.
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Well, the fundamental question here is: what is a sin?
For me, its not clear-cut, not black/white. Eg lying: normally i dont agree with it, but there are tons of situation where imo it's better to ly than tell the truth. Or stealing: what if you steal to save a 1000 orphans from famine?
See, it's a grey area. This is off course a bit confusing, that's why some hardcore religious loons go back to the "source" and try to interpret everything literally. Just to avoid confusion, and not to think for themselves.
For me a true christian is somebody who helps his fellow man, who is positive and understanding. Too bad, a lot of the self-proclaimed "christians" are assholes, judgemental and dogmatic. Worst of all is when they are fundamentalists.
Also: religion is a PERSONAL matter, i hate it when they're claiming, god did this, god did that,.. God helped me win (so ... he helped the other one lose?). Keep your religion to yourself, unless you're being asked for it, plz.
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What if you supplied alcohol for a party and people got drunk? Would that be a sin?
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Well, the fundamental question here is: what is a sin?
For me, its not clear-cut, not black/white. Eg lying: normally i dont agree with it, but there are tons of situation where imo it's better to ly than tell the truth. Or stealing: what if you steal to save a 1000 orphans from famine?
See, it's a grey area. This is off course a bit confusing, that's why some hardcore religious loons go back to the "source" and try to interpret everything literally. Just to avoid confusion, and not to think for themselves.
For me a true christian is somebody who helps his fellow man, who is positive and understanding. Too bad, a lot of the self-proclaimed "christians" are assholes, judgemental and dogmatic. Worst of all is when they are fundamentalists.
Also: religion is a PERSONAL matter, i hate it when they're claiming, god did this, god did that,.. God helped me win (so ... he helped the other one lose?). Keep your religion to yourself, unless you're being asked for it, plz.
I think the Bible defines sin as "transgression of the law," or words to that effect.
There might be gray areas, and you can find plenty by using extraordinary hypothetical situations, but there is also a lot of black and white. For example, the prohibition against murder, lying, stealing, adultery, and honoring your parents are pretty easy to understand and are guidelines that should govern most of our conduct.
I agree that athletes exploit religion, and that's one of my pet peeves, but I don't have a problem with people in general talking about their faith. What's the big deal?
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I think the Bible defines sin as "transgression of the law," or words to that effect.
There might be gray areas, and you can find plenty by using extraordinary hypothetical situations, but there is also a lot of black and white. For example, the prohibition against murder, lying, stealing, adultery, and honoring your parents are pretty easy to understand and are guidelines that should govern most of our conduct.
I agree that athletes exploit religion, and that's one of my pet peeves, but I don't have a problem with people in general talking about their faith. What's the big deal?
There are a lot of gray areas, and you can also find plenty by using normal situations. About the black/white thing: i don't buy that. If you only see b/w that's because you're not openminded and won't look further than the obvious.
Honor your parents -> what if they treat you like shit? More than 5% of all children are abused during childhood (sexually, physically, psychologically,...)
stealing -> what if you have to steal to get some food and save yourself and your family?
See, that's what i'm saying, nothing is simple like that. You can never identify a "sin" for 100%. There is no black and white, no clear "evil".
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There are a lot of gray areas, and you can also find plenty by using normal situations. About the black/white thing: i don't buy that. If you only see b/w that's because you're not openminded and won't look further than the obvious.
Honor your parents -> what if they treat you like shit? More than 5% of all children are abused during childhood (sexually, physically, psychologically,...)
stealing -> what if you have to steal to get some food and save yourself and your family?
See, that's what i'm saying, nothing is simple like that. You can never identify a "sin" for 100%. There is no black and white, no clear "evil".
I disagree. A disagreement over how to interpret whether certain "sins" fall into a gray areas doesn't make a person close-minded at all.
If you are employed and well fed, decide to rob a 7-11, shoot and kill the cashier, and walk out with the money, that is stealing and murder. Pretty black and white IMO. I'd say most of murder, stealing, etc. in this country is pretty black and white. Most of the people who have committed these crimes and have been caught, tried, and convicted, deserve it.
How about the 95 percent of kids who are not abused? Should they honor their parents?
A lot of these things are pretty simple. Don't go buy a gun and shoot and kill someone who cuts you off in a traffic lane. How complicated is that? Tell the truth when you're putting your resume together. Pretty simple. Don't steal from your hardworking neighbor. Easy.
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I disagree. A disagreement over how to interpret whether certain "sins" fall into a gray areas doesn't make a person close-minded at all.
If you are employed and well fed, decide to rob a 7-11, shoot and kill the cashier, and walk out with the money, that is stealing and murder. Pretty black and white IMO. I'd say most of murder, stealing, etc. in this country is pretty black and white. Most of the people who have committed these crimes and have been caught, tried, and convicted, deserve it.
How about the 95 percent of kids who are not abused? Should they honor their parents?
A lot of these things are pretty simple. Don't go buy a gun and shoot and kill someone who cuts you off in a traffic lane. How complicated is that? Tell the truth when you're putting your resume together. Pretty simple. Don't steal from your hardworking neighbor. Easy.
Sure, a lot of times it's easy to tell right from wrong. I was just pointing out the times where it isnt. Just to prove that it isnt a perfect theory, the bible or whatever book can never be perfect. I believe that people can find guidance in there, but what i don't like is when they act like it's the "one and only answer" -> the fundamentalist approach.
Do i try to sympathise with a pedophile? Hell no.
I'm just saying there's more to a lot of "sins", and i wont be judging people as quickly as some others ...
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Sure, a lot of times it's easy to tell right from wrong. I was just pointing out the times where it isnt. Just to prove that it isnt a perfect theory, the bible or whatever book can never be perfect. I believe that people can find guidance in there, but what i don't like is when they act like it's the "one and only answer" -> the fundamentalist approach.
Do i try to sympathise with a pedophile? Hell no.
I'm just saying there's more to a lot of "sins", and i wont be judging people as quickly as some others ...
I agree. :) I agree that some people take rigid positions on right/wrong when certain conduct truly does fall into a gray area. In those situations, your conscience has to be your guide IMO.
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ive battled with these issues over the years myself,ive been trying to live a christian life for many years and fell off the wagon afew times but always get back on and try again,i remember when i was stickin pins in my ass then sittin down right after and readin scripture,it all boils down to how your conscious is dealin with it,in my case i was able to deal with it