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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Mixed Martial Arts (MMA/UFC) => Topic started by: NPCOK on June 01, 2006, 01:23:09 PM
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I have been doing stand up with a guy who's main background is in Wing Chun, but he also does muay tai and kali. My question is: Do you guy's think wing chun is effective in MMA...since it is mainly for actual street fighting. Alot of the stuff you could do not with gloves on, but I think I have learned some good things that some styles don't focus on like hitting center and hitting with structure...just wanted some other peoples opinions. Thanks
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yes it is very good for MMA. remember mma gloves are not like boxing gloves. since they are made for grappling, wing chun techniques can apply. Wing chun has many trapping hands and strikes. I have trained in wing chun for many years and it has proven very effective in my mma training. There are three main forms of Wing chun, and in easch there are many hands that can be applied to mma. even the kicks when properly done can do major damage. The inside fighting that WC teaches is very effective in opening up the weakness of your opponent. WC is usually not givn the respect it is due since it is not flashy and people don't know much about it.
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*thinks of a list of WC fighters (who list it as their primary discipline) that have done well at any level in MMA*
Sorry, can't. I'm sure there is some application though.
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if you use WC as your primary then they wont go into mma. It breaks away too much from their traditional teachings. Many applications and joint strikes/locks can be used. The thing also with WC is that there are no high kicks, since they arent practical. Just cuz you cant think of any WC artists doesnt mean that they cant do well in mma. Besides many of the people that study WC dont study ot long enough to understand the concept and then are usually training in other arts simultaenoulsy so that they can go into mma.
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Very true. Few have the discipline these days to complete an art. Few master it. Few make it to the Shodan level. I don't know if Wing Chun has been used in the UFC, but Keith Hackney was a gung fu fighter that was very successful. Afterall, he defeated a 6'5'' 500 pound sumo wrestler. I'm serious.
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Thanks for the feedback..wing chun also helps get you in close to your opponent, and I am 5'5 so thats a good thing for me..lol The low kicks would seem more practical for me as well since my high kicks would still be chest high at best against a tall opponent. I have more of a ground and pound style (at least thats where I feel most effective) and the low kicks help to take down opponents.
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no problem. just make sure that you understand the principles and pratcice chi sao and dan chi. this will be the key to getting inside and being able to fight inside.
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Very true. Few have the discipline these days to complete an art. Few master it. Few make it to the Shodan level. I don't know if Wing Chun has been used in the UFC, but Keith Hackney was a gung fu fighter that was very successful. Afterall, he defeated a 6'5'' 500 pound sumo wrestler. I'm serious.
And then got his ass handed to him by a 6' 170 pound Royce Gracie. The sumo had zero skills and a weak chin, that flying hitoe/knife edge wouldn't have hit most peoples grand mothers, let alone a trained fighter.
Any 'art' you can 'complete' isn't worth doing, in my opinion. In most 'arts' you start at blackbelt, not finish.
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traditional WC has no belt/ranking system. You never complete your training. it evolves hence chi sao etc. Any fighter has a chance of losing. The topic was is WC effective as a striking art for use in MMA, the asnwer is yes.
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traditional WC has no belt/ranking system. You never complete your training. it evolves hence chi sao etc. Any fighter has a chance of losing. The topic was is WC effective as a striking art for use in MMA, the asnwer is yes.
Says you.
I've seen a few wing chun demos and I have never seen a guy throw a punch like that in mma. The whole "simultaneous" motion goes out the window when the other guy is using 'moves' not taught by the system. It may have application in "the streets", but in mma conventional boxing/thaiboxing/kickboxing will always rule.
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I'm trying to get a good mix...I know there are good things to learn from many different styles. I will be finished with my last bodybuilding competition this year in two weeks (Jr Nationals) After that I will have alot more time in my schedule. I will keep working stand up once a week with the guy I mentioned, and I will start back in BJJ once a week...Kenpo once a week, and then I'm also going to start working with a traditional boxing coach once a week. Mikey Burnett lives here in Tulsa, where I live and I might also start working with him...I used to work out at his gym when I was younger. Thanks again for the feedback!
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And then got his ass handed to him by a 6' 170 pound Royce Gracie. The sumo had zero skills and a weak chin, that flying hitoe/knife edge wouldn't have hit most peoples grand mothers, let alone a trained fighter.
Any 'art' you can 'complete' isn't worth doing, in my opinion. In most 'arts' you start at blackbelt, not finish.
Everyone got their "ass handed to them" at the time by Gracie because nobody was training ground. Keith is an example of a successful Gung Fu fighter. He was great. He beat that sumo silly! And everyone else excluding Gracie.
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Says you.
I've seen a few wing chun demos and I have never seen a guy throw a punch like that in mma. The whole "simultaneous" motion goes out the window when the other guy is using 'moves' not taught by the system. It may have application in "the streets", but in mma conventional boxing/thaiboxing/kickboxing will always rule.
Wrong, but you are entitled to your opinions. I stuy and train on both. I have first hand knowledge of both systems and can attest to its validity.Simultaenous attack and defense is very useful. WC is not taught by many and in general people train in boxing style arts for mma. The whole premise of chi sao is to defend against and exploit weaknesses and attacks from many angles regarldess of the other style.
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*thinks of a list of WC fighters (who list it as their primary discipline) that have done well at any level in MMA*
Sorry, can't. I'm sure there is some application though.
I remember seeing a Wing Chun guy compete in the now defunct Extreme Fighting org. His opponent was Russian Sambo player Igor Zinoviev. The Wing Chun guy was promptly taken down and ass raped.
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ehat was his name?
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I'm trying to get a good mix...I know there are good things to learn from many different styles. I will be finished with my last bodybuilding competition this year in two weeks (Jr Nationals) After that I will have alot more time in my schedule. I will keep working stand up once a week with the guy I mentioned, and I will start back in BJJ once a week...Kenpo once a week, and then I'm also going to start working with a traditional boxing coach once a week. Mikey Burnett lives here in Tulsa, where I live and I might also start working with him...I used to work out at his gym when I was younger. Thanks again for the feedback!
I think you are going a bit too far on being "diverse"... The whole student of all but master of none. Most of the top fighters today excelled in something, then added to their repitoire. But that is more of a function of the relative immaturity of the sport. I'm sure you can learn many different things, from many different arts... But doing them all at once will just confuse you.
Bjj once a week, wont make you a ground wizard.
Boxing/kickboxing/wc once a week, wont make you a stand up fighter...
Besides, the instructor will have to continually repeat things with you since you only go once a week.
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Loss Marco Ruas Submission (Rear Naked Choke) UU 95-Ultimate Utlimate 1995 12/16/1995 1 2:39
Loss Royce Gracie Submission (Armlock) UFC 4-Revenge of the Warriors 12/16/1994 1 5:32
Win Joe Son Submission (Choke) UFC 4-Revenge of the Warriors 12/16/1994 1 2:44
Win Emmanuel Yarborough TKO (Strikes) UFC 3-The American Dream 9/9/1994 1 1:59
Here is Hackney's record... Beating Joe Son and Yarborough isn't exactly an accomplishment. I'd like to know how a guy with a 2 and 2 record was beating everyone else "silly".
The two quality oponents he fought beat him in the first round.
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Nobody could go standup with him. Including a guy that was almost three times his weight. This was back when the UFC was real NHB with no gloves, no weight classes, groin strikes, head stomps, headbutting, and etc. Keith Hackney was one of the best. Even Tito Ortiz said he waited until they added more rules and weightclasses to the UFC before entering. That's because he's a pussy.
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Very true. Few have the discipline these days to complete an art. Few master it. Few make it to the Shodan level. I don't know if Wing Chun has been used in the UFC, but Keith Hackney was a gung fu fighter that was very successful. Afterall, he defeated a 6'5'' 500 pound sumo wrestler. I'm serious.
When Hackney did it it was UFC 1 and he was a substitute because Gracie was injured and couldn't continue. Gracie went on to defeat Hackney with no effort. There is no way in the world Hackney, even in his prime, would make it in today's UFC.
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Even Tito Ortiz said he waited until they added more rules and weightclasses to the UFC before entering. That's because he's a pussy.
Where's the source of that quote, a give us the the article where he said that. If there's no proof, then it's just anecdotal.
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When Hackney did it it was UFC 1 and he was a substitute because Gracie was injured and couldn't continue. Gracie went on to defeat Hackney with no effort. There is no way in the world Hackney, even in his prime, would make it in today's UFC.
Bro, I already said nobody could beat Gracie at the time because people weren't crosstraining. But his standup skills were fantastic. You say Hackney in his prime couldn't compete, but that's your opinion. Hackney was a true "street fighter" not a sport fighter like the current crop.
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I heard Tito say that on the radio in an interview. Believe it or not it makes no difference to me. They asked him why he got into it.....he started going into some long winded explanation and then he said it. He's a sport fighter.
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ehat was his name?
I researched it a bit. I believe the guy's name is Jim Teachout, and it wasn't Zinoviev, but John Lewis who administered the bitchslapping.
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the only thing i could find was that Jim is stunt man. Nothing on his training background
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"Realkarate blackbelt", should get in the cage and show them the true power of Tae-ko-ku-shodan and chinto.
I'm completely serious, show them the power of traditional martial arts and the dedication it takes to get a blackbelt in shotokan karate. Obviously your vast knowledge of kata will protect you from those morons who just do thai boxing and bjj.
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"Realkarate blackbelt", should get in the cage and show them the true power of Tae-ko-ku-shodan and chinto.
I'm completely serious, show them the power of traditional martial arts and the dedication it takes to get a blackbelt in shotokan karate. Obviously your vast knowledge of kata will protect you from those morons who just do thai boxing and bjj.
Agreed; call out Ortiz since he's just a sport pussy ;)
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"Realkarate blackbelt", should get in the cage and show them the true power of Tae-ko-ku-shodan and chinto.
I'm completely serious, show them the power of traditional martial arts and the dedication it takes to get a blackbelt in shotokan karate. Obviously your vast knowledge of kata will protect you from those morons who just do thai boxing and bjj.
I totally agree with you an123. realkarateblackbelt reminds of this guy who "renders people unconcious" without striking them, but using a "chi blow"! George Dillman was shown on the National Geographic Channel displaying his "knockout art" until he was tested by a sceptic. Of course he couldn't knock him out and gave an excuse to why.
I've gone to Fairtex school in SF (Muay Thai) and another in Concord CA (BJ Penn used to train there) and got a taste of how combative the competitors are. In a street fight, with no weapons, most of these guys would jack you up. I've be tinkering with Bjj and muay thai for a while now, and in my opinion, I could care less if someone was a blackbelt in almost any martial art, because once taken to the ground, their stand up technique is useless. As for realkarateblackbelt's claim that MMA and Pride fighters are sport fighters, because they wear gloves and don't do groin strikes and eye gouge, the rules were implemented so that there wouldn't be fighters that would be hindered to fight in future bouts. Take a guy's eye out and what? That's guys no longer a competitor.
My question to him is what I ask of most "martial arts experts". When you compete (not kata, but actual striking and fighting competions) if what you claim MMA and Pride fighters are just "sport fighters", why the hell do they wear headgear, foot and hand protection and in some cases body protection at the competitions? Isn't that sport fighting? If your claim is to be able to "maim" your opponent, why are there also rules in those competitions?
Just like in all "martial arts classes" when training they teach you to "pull up" on a kick or punch so you don't harm your training partner. Wow, what good will that do when you get in a real brawl. ::)
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You say Hackney in his prime couldn't compete, but that's your opinion. Hackney was a true "street fighter" not a sport fighter like the current crop.
Lol, wow your opinion must not be shared by Keith Hackney! His website even says MMA is the better way to go than traditional martial arts! Guess that means your claims are BS. Oh and I provide sources:
http://www.hackneyscombat.com/default.asp?page=4
What is Mixed Martial Arts?
Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) is really not a style. It is a mind set for the type of training that you do. It combines various aspects of different styles with a more western approach to training. So what does that mean? Simple, we train people to use what ever works period. Although many look at MMA as a sport, which it is, it is much more and meant to give you well rounded skills that can be applied to self defense.
Why Mixed Martial Arts instead of Traditional?
In the Martial Arts community, many have said that if you take a boxer against a traditional martial artist, of the same experience, the traditional martial artist is at a disadvantage. Why? Well it's not that the traditional martial artist doesn't have the tools to win, he just didn't train as realistically as a boxer. Boxers know what works and what doesn't because their training is "live" and not worked against a static willing partner. MMA training follows the same guidelines except that besided using only our fists as weapons, we teach you to use all of your body and at all ranges of defense.
[/quote]Again I said that in an earlier post:
Just like in all "martial arts classes" when training they teach you to "pull up" on a kick or punch so you don't harm your training partner. Wow, what good will that do when you get in a real brawl. ::)
Now what? You going to come up with another "stand up traditional martial artist" that can compete in UFC and Pride?
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You don't understand what Keith is saying. By MMA, he means you should learn to fight stand up and on the ground. I'm sure he's confident in his standup skills.
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"Realkarate blackbelt", should get in the cage and show them the true power of Tae-ko-ku-shodan and chinto.
I'm completely serious, show them the power of traditional martial arts and the dedication it takes to get a blackbelt in shotokan karate. Obviously your vast knowledge of kata will protect you from those morons who just do thai boxing and bjj.
Keith Hackney, Bas Rutten, and Andy Hug have proven this already.
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You don't understand what Keith is saying. By MMA, he means you should learn to fight stand up and on the ground. I'm sure he's confident in his standup skills.
How much don't you understand? Here I'll break down each statement for you:
http://www.hackneyscombat.com/default.asp?page=4
Why Mixed Martial Arts instead of Traditional?
In the Martial Arts community,
Meaning the teachings of Maritial arts. many have said that if you take a boxer against a traditional martial artist, of the same experience, the traditional martial artist is at a disadvantage.
That means a martial artist is in trouble. Why? Well it's not that the traditional martial artist doesn't have the tools to win, he just didn't train as realistically as a boxer.
Meaning Martial Artists make up a scenario and then "step by step" show how to defend against it. First in slow motion and then in regular motion with the assailant not fighting back. Boxers know what works and what doesn't because their training is "live" and not worked against a static willing partner.
Meaning a paid assistant does whatever you want them to do. MMA training follows the same guidelines except that besided using only our fists as weapons, we teach you to use all of your body and at all ranges of defense.
Meaning MMA is dominant against martial arts.
Maybe that will help you to understand what Hackney meant. ::) :-X
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I don't really care. MMA is not a style. MMA means "mixed-martial-arts" it simply means a mixture of styles. Of course you can't just do kata and expect to win a real fight. There are some mall karate schools that do this. Karate teachers like Mas Oyama had his students compete full contact and they were used to getting hit. These guys(Oyama's full contact fighters) would destroy most boxers easily. One roundhouse kick to the stomach and the stupid boxer would be down for the count. I've done it. I kicked some street fighter right in his head and knocked him out cold. How many guys that just do boxing win in MMA?
Kyokushin has Andy Hug - K-1 champion, and Bas Rutten - UFC champ
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I don't really care. MMA is not a style. MMA means "mixed-martial-arts" it simply means a mixture of styles. Of course you can't just do kata and expect to win a real fight. There are some mall karate schools that do this. Karate teachers like Mas Oyama had his students compete full contact and they were used to getting hit. These guys(Oyama's full contact fighters) would destroy most boxers easily. One roundhouse kick to the stomach and the stupid boxer would be down for the count. I've done it. I kicked some street fighter right in his head and knocked him out cold. How many guys that just do boxing win in MMA?
Kyokushin has Andy Hug - K-1 champion, and Bas Rutten - UFC champ
Lol, dude MMA is true competition fighting. Martial Arts competitions are nothing but that, Martial ARTS!
Lol and if you kicked a street fighter in the head and knocked him out, I assume he was an actual MMA competitor or just some "tough guy" who we all know in most instances don't really know how to fight?
Again Andy Hug and Bas Rutten became champs AFTER they left not during their stay. I was the spelling bee Champion in Middle school, do I accredit that to my elementary school?
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This doesn't make sense. Your last post. Did Andy Hug suddenly forget how to do Karate when he entered K-1 and defeated everyone?
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Andy Hug Kyokushin Karate fighter and K-1 champ
(http://www.fightingmaster.com/legends/andyhug/andyhug28.jpg)
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Andy Hug - full contact days - from masutatsuoyama.com
(http://www.masutatsuoyama.com/pictures/andy_hug-shokei_matsui.jpg)
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(http://www.kyokushinresults.freeserve.co.uk/Pages/World/Photos/5th%20WT%20Hug%20Tamesh.jpg)
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(http://images.hugi.is/martial_arts/67181.jpg)
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This doesn't make sense. Your last post. Did Andy Hug suddenly forget how to do Karate when he entered K-1 and defeated everyone?
Lol, dude I am refuting what you have said. So let's go over it one at a time.
Can a Martial Artist (regardless of art form or discipline) with ONLY traditional art form fighting win in today's MMA competitions? Key word is ONLY.
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Lol, dude I am refuting what you have said. So let's go over it one at a time.
Can a Martial Artist (regardless of art form or discipline) with ONLY traditional art from fighting win in today's MMA competitions? Key word is ONLY.
Depends on the rules. If head butts, elbows, ground kicks, and throat strikes are legal absolutely. In UFC it is unlikely. You should train ground and standup to be complete though. Strikers have many of their weapons taken away in MMA. Most MMA fighters are jack of all trades and master of none.
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Depends on the rules. If head butts, elbows, ground kicks, and throat strikes are legal absolutely. In UFC it is unlikely. You should train ground and standup to be complete though. Strikers have many of their weapons taken away in MMA. Most MMA fighters are jack of all trades and master of none.
So you say no?
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So you say no?
All things being equal(height, weight) yes.
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All things being equal(height, weight) yes.
Okay we agree that a martial artist ONLY doing traditional arts from fighting would lose to an MMA fighter in competition.
Why do you view MMA as an undisciplined form of fighting?
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Okay we agree that a martial artist ONLY doing traditional arts from fighting would lose to an MMA fighter in competition.
Why do you view MMA as an undisciplined form of fighting?
Like I said it depends on the rules. In something like Vale Tudo, a traditional fighter could do very well. In the current UFC a pure standup fighter would lose more often than not.
MMA is not a fighting style. It just means someone proficient in standup and ground fighting, or, open fighting. Most are jack of all trades fighters. They were good wrestlers in high school so they decided to take a cycle and cross-train but they never really master anything(standup or ground). In a competition like the UFC that penalizes standup fighters, that's all it takes.
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Like I said it depends on the rules. In something like Vale Tudo, a traditional fighter could do very well. In the current UFC a pure standup fighter would lose more often than not.
MMA is not a fighting style. It just means someone proficient in standup and ground fighting, or, open fighting. Most are jack of all trades fighters. They were good wrestlers in high school so they decided to take a cycle and cross-train but they never really master anything(standup or ground). In a competition like the UFC that penalizes standup fighters, that's all it takes.
Why is it that it penalizes stand up fighter in your opinion again?
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Because Karate fighters are too dangerous. They are taught to strike the throat, groin, eyes, and headbutt - in addition to all the kicks utilized by kickboxers + front kicks, back kicks, crescent kicks, side-kicks, snap kicks, etc. UFC is biased to ground fighters. But it makes sense - because people would be crippled if they didn't do it that way.
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Because Karate fighters are too dangerous. They are taught to strike the throat, groin, eyes, and headbutt - in addition to all the kicks utilized by kickboxers + front kicks, back kicks, crescent kicks, side-kicks, snap kicks, etc. UFC is biased to ground fighters. But it makes sense - because people would be crippled if they didn't do it that way.
So you are saying there are competitions where these tactics are allowed?
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Vale Tudo allows everything but eye gouges last I checked. It's in Brasil.
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Vale Tudo allows everything but eye gouges last I checked. It's in Brazil.
Well, maybe you need an update:
http://www.kamppailuopisto.com/fightfestival/valetudorules.pdf
But besides that, there are competitions that have those prerequisites?
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I found a super secret training class taught none other by "realkarateblackbelt". Please watch and add these deadly moves to your arsenal, you will be the ultimate fighter (on tv or on your block) in no time!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7925292111832234698&q=karate (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7925292111832234698&q=karate)
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I found a super secret training class taught none other by "realkarateblackbelt". Please watch and add these deadly moves to your arsenal, you will be the ultimate fighter (on tv or on your block) in no time!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7925292111832234698&q=karate (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7925292111832234698&q=karate)
That and more:
I used to live the gay lifestyle until I found Jesus Christ. Now I am a straight man.When you put these pictures up you are actively encouraging homosexuality.
I think the "ball and chain" attack is next!
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Royler vs. a Kempo Instructor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naWEbPDz80w&search=Gracie%20Jiu%20Jitsu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naWEbPDz80w&search=Gracie%20Jiu%20Jitsu)
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Royler vs. a Kempo Instructor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naWEbPDz80w&search=Gracie%20Jiu%20Jitsu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naWEbPDz80w&search=Gracie%20Jiu%20Jitsu)
Gotta love it.
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We already know what works, a good combination of: boxing, tai boxing, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, and judo. Throw in some heart, and ability to take punishment. Forget the rest.