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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Mixed Martial Arts (MMA/UFC) => Topic started by: texasRUSH on August 07, 2006, 08:14:13 AM
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though i'm not what you'd call a "pracitioner"...yesterday I got into it with a guy that wanted to "rough house". Things got a little heated. You know..the "you train so i'm gonna see if i can beat you" bullshit...
well from what I DO know..which isn't much..ended up working pretty well. Ended up getting his back and into a rear naked choke when things began to escalate and he started to get angry and take the fun and jokingness out of it. After sinking in the hooks and giving him a good squeeze til he was red in the face i let him go. Told him i "just got lucky" and kept him from getting madder over hurt pride.
I'm thinking about signing up for just bjj classes instead of getting what i've got out of mma classes alone. It worked pretty well...especially hard to get me off when the heel hooks were in on the rear naked attempt. I can see it working on people that are significantly bigger than i am...and i'm a big guy. But 5 inches taller and 15 more pounds started to make a difference when trying to just "control" the guy. :-\
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Once, something similar happened to me! I do BB and PL, but once a week I do some boxing and judo with some friends that used to compete! One day I was on the locker room equiping my self to another session of deep-heavy squats, when the tae kwondo teacher started to mess with me, saying that I have strengh on squat but he would smash my knees! I couldn't believe that it was happening, what have I done to that guy star messing with me! I told him to chill out and be careful with his mouth, but the kept on thretning me. Then he comes really near my nose, man I lost control and pushed against a wall, the guy tried to hit my knees, but luckly he failed, than a grab him and went to the floor, where I started to punch him until someone could separate us! The guy never thougt that a strong dude could hit back, but he was wrong. He forgot that in these cases there are no rules, and sometimes shit happens. I was 101 Kg and the guy was 80Kg. Same height!
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i'm learning that technique plays a much greater role that most want to admit.
when you know your shit or know MORE of it..man it makes a difference.
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yup when your up against someone who doesent have any skill the bjj works great, i caught my freind over and over when he wanted to see what i could do the other day....
but when you get into bjj classes its not so easy, soon as start rolling with higher belts you feel like the fool lol. but you do learn from it and everyone where i train always tells me my mistakes and we go over it again and again.....
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i will say this though to...... size and strength do come into play at points... i understand now why they have weight classes b/c that X factor does become a deciding variable sometime
cause in point, i rolled with a fresh white belt the other day, he had 2 weeks of training so he knew somewhat basics, only problem was hes 6'4 and about 300 pounds, not chubby either, the guy had insane grip and just retarded weight and strength, due to this he just over powered me in everything, and he had good cardio to. after beating me a couple times by pure weight and strength i finally caught him after 20 mins....
another example is we have a girl there who is a high rankin belt and a bjj reff for events. when i rolled with her i noticed she used alot of skill, but due to my strength i was able to power out of alot of her moves, (no gi and gi) but after about 20 mins of rolling she caught me
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yup when your up against someone who doesent have any skill the bjj works great, i caught my freind over and over when he wanted to see what i could do the other day....
but when you get into bjj classes its not so easy, soon as start rolling with higher belts you feel like the fool lol. but you do learn from it and everyone where i train always tells me my mistakes and we go over it again and again.....
Training with purples, browns and blacks makes your technique much better, sharper, and your transitions get better as well. I can tap big bulky guys like crazy, but roll with a Baret Yoshida, James Tanaka, Chris or Mike Onzuka, and even though they are way smaller than you, they will make you look like a chump.
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I used to think BJJ was useless too after years training in Boxing and Tai boxing i got submitted by a friend of mine, and almost got beat up in a street fight when i fell down.
Needles to say now I think ur a fool not to use it, that said u still need stand up skills to.
Now in fights i just use the style that my opponent hates the most. Tea-kwon do and karate are a waste of time. I beat my 4th degree BB teacher in a sparing match by just waking up and hammer punching him in the solar plexus, dropped him like a sac of potatoes then quit the class lol. I was only in the class 1 week but they always leave their Gard open on one side so that ,made it easy. After he recovered he started throwing spinning round houses which i just walked into and he fell over. (If your too close to a kicker they cant do any damage to u if the are not versed in knees or elbows) Plus the physical training in most karate/tea-kwon classes is a joke!
BTW strength is a definite factor in any fighting style when ur dealing with 2 skilled ppl. Why do u all thing Gracie lost to Matt ??? If u watch the fight Gracie was the first to get a submission locked in but Matt just powers out.
I've known this for a long time, since i was in boxing, but that fight is one of many that proves the point! Or check out the nog vs bob sapp fight another case in point! (u can dwn load it from the fights thread) Bob sapp powers out of submission after submission, and when he slams Nog on the mat, could u imagine that on concrete ??? Game Over!
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yup this is whyi weight train also, you have to have all the parts to become great skill/strength/speed/cardio
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I used to think BJJ was useless too after years training in Boxing and Tai boxing i got submitted by a friend of mine, and almost got beat up in a street fight when i fell down.
Needles to say now I think ur a fool not to use it, that said u still need stand up skills to.
Now in fights i just use the style that my opponent hates the most. Tea-kwon do and karate are a waste of time. I beat my 4th degree BB teacher in a sparing match by just waking up and hammer punching him in the solar plexus, dropped him like a sac of potatoes then quit the class lol. I was only in the class 1 week but they always leave their Gard open on one side so that ,made it easy. After he recovered he started throwing spinning round houses which i just walked into and he fell over. (If your too close to a kicker they cant do any damage to u if the are not versed in knees or elbows) Plus the physical training in most karate/tea-kwon classes is a joke!
BTW strength is a definite factor in any fighting style when ur dealing with 2 skilled ppl. Why do u all thing Gracie lost to Matt ??? If u watch the fight Gracie was the first to get a submission locked in but Matt just powers out.
I've known this for a long time, since i was in boxing, but that fight is one of many that proves the point! Or check out the nog vs bob sapp fight another case in point! (u can dwn load it from the fights thread) Bob sapp powers out of submission after submission, and when he slams Nog on the mat, could u imagine that on concrete ??? Game Over!
All things being equal, bigger, stronger is best. I don't think the Gracie/Hughes fight can be used as an example of strength in and of itself. Hughes passed Royce's guard easily, transitioned into knee in the ribs position, took his back and sank in the hooks. Essentially, he out jitsed the BJJ master. I am sure strength, balance, conditioning played a role, but I think Royce's/Rorion/Rickson/Roylers refusal to expand their training by incorporating newer techniques (Greco Roman/Free style wrestling/Thai boxing for longer than six weeks, boxing) and sparring with people outside of their camp doesn't help. If the mythical Saku/Rickson fight ever happens, or a Frank/Rickson fight ever materializes, we will see the same thing. When Saku was getting eaten by Chute Boxe guys, he sucked up his ego, went to Brazil and started training with Wandy, Shogun, Ninja, et al. This is the best way of thinking and training. MFS is a bunch of animals, who are conditioned, have killer wrestling, and technique. They bring in other guys and cross train. This is the way to stay competitive in MMA. Tokoro dominated Royce, and he is a much smaller fighter than Royce.
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Very true bigger is better if fighters are equally skilled, and I agree with the lack of well roundedness but hughes did power out of a move or too as well. Wandy is one of my favorite fighters his style is awesome!
I was supprized Gracie didn't do more home work, but hey I won money on that fight,t I didn't think he'd adapt/learn any new tricks, since he never lost yet so he had no reason to!
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Very true bigger is better if fighters are equally skilled, and I agree with the lack of well roundedness but hughes did power out of a move or too as well. Wandy is one of my favorite fighters his style is awesome!
I was supprized Gracie didn't do more home work, but hey I won money on that fight,t I didn't think he'd adapt/learn any new tricks, since he never lost yet so he had no reason to!
I don't think you are giving Hughes his just due. He transitioned from position to postition seamlessly, and with the exception of the straight arm bar from half guard, he didn't use excessive force. (Royce's elbow was hyperextended big time, but of course, he didn't tap.) On their feet, he executed two text book rear roundhouse leg kicks, covered well, checked a couple of low kicks, and even attempted a Superman punch. He passed Royce's guard, and got the knee in the ribs using BJJ/submission grappling skills, not power.
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BJJ is very effective; my only problem is that so many schools make gi training so much of their format. there's a lot of BJJ that depends on using the gi for positioning, chokes and subs...
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bjj is bullshit, 99 percent of the time you can punch out of locks and bars. it works if you pause but if you are continously explosive and dont stop moving the person never has an oppertunity to use bjj. its hard to chocke or bar somebody while being punched in the face. i think mma fighters should put alot more attention on stand up skills. if you have heavy hands youll do great. and i mean real heavy, not silvia or any of that bullshit. i mean mike tyson heavy
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If you really think that, I would highly advise you to find a school that does grappling that is MMA biased. Go there and test your theories regarding combat. Maurice Smith, one of the best strikers in the world, who has great sprawl defense, gets taken down and controlled by fighters who are grapplers. If you want to defend against a BJJ guy, you better know BJJ.
I used to be an instructor in Wing Chun, did Muay Thai, and boxed. Rorion, Relson, and some skinny guy named Royce came to our school to "demonstrate" their art. They took 32 people down, submitted 32 people with EASE. That day, 29 people signed up for Gracie Jiujitsu. 3 thought they could prevent the takedown, and do not cross train.
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you put mike tyson in his prime, against royce in his prime. royce would die in 30 seconds. my point is if you have good hands. boxing hands. not muay thai, or kick boxing. real boxing. you can defend bjj. a good wrestler can sprawl and get his legs back to avoid the take down, then get up stecp back and strike
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Shure thats why he wouldn't fight him, not even for 1 million a second ::) U didn't read my post did U? I'm a heavy puncher,kicker,knew,elbower, and still u can end up on the ground! lots of ppl in the UFC are heavy hitters ??? I was in amateur boxing and was a VERY hard puncher for my weight class, and I've tried BJJ on lots of boxers, and the results are Always the same. Their easy to get on the ground and once down they are no diff than any one off the street ;) Plus the way you grapple in BJJ, it's very hard to hit them, if it's done right. As I'm locking u up I'm making shUre ur not in a good position to hit me.
And also theres ways around a sprawl, you can go behind them when they sprawl or make space strike and come back with out letting go of course, in or a # of other things like Knee someone in the head or face when they try to go down, hook their leg etc... You've just never obviously fought anyone good in BJJ I recommend going to a good teacher, and sparing some one there and see what happens. My friend is a shitty striker and he still handled me with ease, he doesn't even kick that well! but all be needs to do is block a few shots and rush in. The other thing, is try punching someone in the head full power with no gloves on? If Ur a heavy hitter u will probably shatter Ur hand, hard to punch after that ;) Better hope u landed on the chin, but no way to be shure, that will happen. cause u got one swing and their in. How many boxing matches end in one punch? get up and strike? there just going to let u? I'd only let u try and power up if I wanted to knee u in the face before I slam u on the ground! if Ur still awake that is.
BTW I give Matt Hughs tons of cred, he and GSP are my favorite fighters in the UFC! I was just trying to say strength can be a deffinate factor in a fight, when it comes to striking or grappling.
That fight was a bad example to use, but what if Matt didn't have the strength to power out of the arm bar? he could have lost there. I think Gracie can hyper extend naturally though, my friend can do this also he's not double jointed but he can hyper extend his arm a good 25-30 degrees with out feeling any pain at all. weird lol
Sorry to ramble on so much I just love to talk about Fighting and BB ;D
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you put mike tyson in his prime, against royce in his prime. royce would die in 30 seconds. my point is if you have good hands. boxing hands. not muay thai, or kick boxing. real boxing. you can defend bjj. a good wrestler can sprawl and get his legs back to avoid the take down, then get up stecp back and strike
Actually he wouldn't, he would just flop guard and Tyson wouldn't know what to do. But your arguement is irrelevant, there are maybe 10 people in the world that have Tyson's punching power, and the common Joe on the street certainly isn't one of them.
Bjj is great for MMA and for Sport BJJ. It isn't the end all on the "street", but if you think a collegiate wrestler with some bjj can't take down a thai boxer with ease then pound his face... You are wrong.
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every body has there opinions but from what i can see, wrestling is the dominant sport right now in mma, wrestlers are dominating or have dominated, wrestling and hands is what matters, if you can sprawl and blok a bjj shot, wich is easy cuz they shoot liek pussys then your fine. dont go to the ground when they role on there back. i agree if you go to the ground your gonna get caught. but sprawl and or move to get out and a wrestler/boxr will kill a bjj student.
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Until you run up against a BTT athlete who has the benefit of a takedown coach like Darrel Gholar. Big and Lil Nog, Arona, Shaolin, all would take you down, and sub you.
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every body has there opinions but from what i can see, wrestling is the dominant sport right now in mma, wrestlers are dominating or have dominated, wrestling and hands is what matters, if you can sprawl and block a bjj shot, which is easy cuz they shoot like pussys then your fine. don't go to the ground when they role on there back. i agree if you go to the ground your gonna get caught. but sprawl and or move to get out and a wrestler/boxer will kill a bjj student.
Yes cause they also train in Bjj, or at very least train on the counter moves ;) You need a mix of styles pure and simple, It all boils down to if ur opponent knows what ur gonna do, and u donut know what he is doing u lose! on a battle field it's called an ambush. Also all the wrestlers like randy couture etc.. heavy modify their moves they don't just do straight wrestling. Take the best moves from every art and combine them. I think it's been more than proved, that no one art has the total key to fighting u need a combination lock.
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Yes cause they also train in Bjj, or at very least train on the counter moves ;) You need a mix of styles pure and simple, It all boils down to if ur opponent knows what ur gonna do, and u donut know what he is doing u lose! on a battle field it's called an ambush. Also all the wrestlers like randy couture etc.. heavy modify their moves they don't just do straight wrestling. Take the best moves from every art and combine them. I think it's been more than proved, that no one art has the total key to fighting u need a combination lock.
Correct. No one art has all the answers. You need to know the most efficient techniques from the most efficient fighting arts. Bruce Lee preached this...oh, about 35 years ago. The JKD philosophy in a nutshell, baby. ;)
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Pure wrestlers are subject to submissions. See Kevin Jackson/Frank Shamrock, Enson/Randy, Murillo/Lindland. Since those fights, Randy, and Lindland started training BJJ, I wonder why. In practice, BJ Penn subs Hendo, Randy and Lindland, Kevin Randleman/Saku, Randleman/Fedor, Coleman/Nog, Coleman/Fedor. All world class wrestlers. So if you think just wrestling, and striking is it, you are in for a rude awakening. You need to be versed in all ranges (ala Jun Fan Lee), and excellent in one.
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i agree you need to have skill in every art, however what i was saying that as an art form wrestling or boxing is superior to bjj
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There is no superior art, only superior athlete.
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Shure thats why he wouldn't fight him, not even for 1 million a second ::) U didn't read my post did U? I'm a heavy puncher,kicker,knew,elbower, and still u can end up on the ground! lots of ppl in the UFC are heavy hitters ??? I was in amateur boxing and was a VERY hard puncher for my weight class, and I've tried BJJ on lots of boxers, and the results are Always the same. Their easy to get on the ground and once down they are no diff than any one off the street ;) Plus the way you grapple in BJJ, it's very hard to hit them, if it's done right. As I'm locking u up I'm making shUre ur not in a good position to hit me.
And also theres ways around a sprawl, you can go behind them when they sprawl or make space strike and come back with out letting go of course, in or a # of other things like Knee someone in the head or face when they try to go down, hook their leg etc... You've just never obviously fought anyone good in BJJ I recommend going to a good teacher, and sparing some one there and see what happens. My friend is a shitty striker and he still handled me with ease, he doesn't even kick that well! but all be needs to do is block a few shots and rush in. The other thing, is try punching someone in the head full power with no gloves on? If Ur a heavy hitter u will probably shatter Ur hand, hard to punch after that ;) Better hope u landed on the chin, but no way to be shure, that will happen. cause u got one swing and their in. How many boxing matches end in one punch? get up and strike? there just going to let u? I'd only let u try and power up if I wanted to knee u in the face before I slam u on the ground! if Ur still awake that is.
BTW I give Matt Hughs tons of cred, he and GSP are my favorite fighters in the UFC! I was just trying to say strength can be a deffinate factor in a fight, when it comes to striking or grappling.
That fight was a bad example to use, but what if Matt didn't have the strength to power out of the arm bar? he could have lost there. I think Gracie can hyper extend naturally though, my friend can do this also he's not double jointed but he can hyper extend his arm a good 25-30 degrees with out feeling any pain at all. weird lol
Sorry to ramble on so much I just love to talk about Fighting and BB ;D
Don't be sorry; that was a good post...
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bjj is bullshit, 99 percent of the time you can punch out of locks and bars. it works if you pause but if you are continously explosive and dont stop moving the person never has an oppertunity to use bjj. its hard to chocke or bar somebody while being punched in the face. i think mma fighters should put alot more attention on stand up skills. if you have heavy hands youll do great. and i mean real heavy, not silvia or any of that bullshit. i mean mike tyson heavy
I suggest you go to your local BJJ school and tell them your feelings and demand a close door match to prove your point.
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if i went in there with some one of equal level i would win, now of course a black belt or master of bjj would submit me I'm not denying that, but some one of my equal level ( college wrestler, 5 years of judo, 2 years stand up) i would beat them. theres no way i can step into the ring with a Gracie and stand a chance i would get my ass handed to me. however when Gracie stepped in the ring with a wrestler of his equal or similar talent, well we all say what happened to your god.
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if i went in there with some one of equal level i would win, now of course a black belt or master of bjj would submit me I'm not denying that, but some one of my equal level ( college wrestler, 5 years of judo, 2 years stand up) i would beat them. theres no way i can step into the ring with a Gracie and stand a chance i would get my ass handed to me. however when Gracie stepped in the ring with a wrestler of his equal or similar talent, well we all say what happened to your god.
That would be a purple belt level so go and arrange a closed door match with a purple belt and report back to us how you make out. Hughes has an extensive background in BJJ and submissions.
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hey i dont want to spark this argument up again. but if u had to know 1, and only 1 type of martial arts to go into a fight with. ( a 1vs1 fight that is). what would it be?
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if i went in there with some one of equal level i would win, now of course a black belt or master of bjj would submit me I'm not denying that, but some one of my equal level ( college wrestler, 5 years of judo, 2 years stand up) i would beat them. theres no way i can step into the ring with a Gracie and stand a chance i would get my ass handed to me. however when Gracie stepped in the ring with a wrestler of his equal or similar talent, well we all say what happened to your god.
It isn't about styles, it is about athletes. The example you use, is Matt Hughes. Did you know that Matt was submitted twice by Dennis Hallman, (this prompted him to start training BJJ with MFS, Jeremy Horn and Pat) and his other submission loss came by RNC from BJ Penn, one of the best BJJ players in MMA. Gracie (Royce, Royler, Rickson, et al) aren't the best submission fighters in MMA. Big Nog is the best MMA submission specialist who is also an amateur boxer, and has greco and freestyle training from Darrel Gholar. So wrestling/boxing isn't the best, Matt was the best athlete.
If you are planning on fighting MMA, you'd better get a tight BJJ game. One of my coaches, James Martines, is a professional Muay Thai fighter who is as tough as nails. He hasn't faired as well in MMA, but he has an ever improving game, and just competed in his first submission tournament. Check out his record on Sherdog, and watch his fight videos. His striking is on par with other John Winklethorn trained fighters, he is also a MT fighter out of Master Toddy's camp in Vegas. Obvisously, if someone of his credentials thinks training the ground is important, it must be.
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That would be a purple belt level so go and arrange a closed door match with a purple belt and report back to us how you make out. Hughes has an extensive background in BJJ and submissions.
Exactly right! why? because he has too ;)
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It isn't about styles, it is about athletes. The example you use, is Matt Hughes. Did you know that Matt was submitted twice by Dennis Hallman, (this prompted him to start training BJJ with MFS, Jeremy Horn and Pat) and his other submission loss came by RNC from BJ Penn, one of the best BJJ players in MMA. Gracie (Royce, Royler, Rickson, et al) aren't the best submission fighters in MMA. Big Nog is the best MMA submission specialist who is also an amateur boxer, and has greco and freestyle training from Darrel Gholar. So wrestling/boxing isn't the best, Matt was the best athlete.
If you are planning on fighting MMA, you'd better get a tight BJJ game. One of my coaches, James Martines, is a professional Muay Thai fighter who is as tough as nails. He hasn't faired as well in MMA, but he has an ever improving game, and just competed in his first submission tournament. Check out his record on Sherdog, and watch his fight videos. His striking is on par with other John Winklethorn trained fighters, he is also a MT fighter out of Master Toddy's camp in Vegas. Obvisously, if someone of his credentials thinks training the ground is important, it must be.
Very well put. To think that Hughes is just a wrestler with no other cross training shows how little some people know how hard top fighters work.
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i never said hughes was just a wrestler, all mma fighters are and have to be well rounded to do well in mma. what i said and will stand by (and i am looking for a bjj gym that will let me fight without joining. i got turned down by gracies in sacramento area) is that a wrestler of the same training years or level as a bjj will win in a fight. i hope to prove this right. i may be wrong and easily submitted. this i highly doubt
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You talk very silly. I guess the folks at the Gracie school in Sacremento sensed what a badass you are and wanted nothing to do with you.
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no they just said they wouldnt allow me to come in and fight a purple belt, they did say i could enter a tournament wich they have often but its a bjj tourney not mma, so the rules would be diff
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no they just said they wouldnt allow me to come in and fight a purple belt, they did say i could enter a tournament wich they have often but its a bjj tourney not mma, so the rules would be diff
I guess they didn't want you to make a fool of their purple belt and show what a useless art BJJ is.
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Too bad you don't live in Hawaii. You could go to Bull's Pen, HMC, Eastsidaz, 808 Fight Factory, MMA development, Grappling Unlimited and easily find the match you desire.
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im actualy from hawaii, i lived in kailua and went to st louis high school. ive rolled around at grappling unlimited a few times cuz a buddy of mine trained there he was real good friends with egan, i think egan is his god father or something
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Too bad you don't live in Hawaii. You could go to Bull's Pen, HMC, Eastsidaz, 808 Fight Factory, MMA development, Grappling Unlimited and easily find the match you desire.
He's not looking hard enough.
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that may be part of it, ive only tried 1 place the rest are kind of far away, but i will soon. and ill try to get my buddy to tape it. then il post and we can all see. like i said. i may get my ass handed to me
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Go to Caesar Gracie's, AKA, and Frank Shamrock's place. Plenty of takers there. If you are back in Hawaii, PM me.