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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: loco on September 25, 2006, 01:29:59 PM
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http://www.doesgodexist.org/AboutClayton/PastLife.html
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Why I Left Christianity
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/why.html
Why I Left Islam
http://www.islam-watch.org/AliSina/why_I_left_Islam.htm
Why I Left Judaism
http://www.dvorkin.com/essays/yinotjew.htm
Why I left Hinduism
http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2004/02/ex-hindu.php
your point?
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your point?
Easy killer...I enjoyed reading "Why I Left Atheism" and I thought I'd share with everyone. Some here might enjoy reading it too.
Honestly, thanks for posting these! I am definitely going to read them all, specially "Why I Left Christianity". Thanks!
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Why I Left Christianity
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/why.html
Well, I read this one. Very interesting, but this guy was never a Christian.
He never once mentioned accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour, never once did he mention a time when Jesus Christ transformed him or changed his life.
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
2 Corinthians 5:17
"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
2 Corinthians 3:18
He never once mentioned a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Jesus said:
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
John 17:3
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
John 17:25-26
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me"
John 10:14
These are not mere Bible quotes. I have experienced this first hand even before reading it. I give testimony that it is the truth. It's like some of us bodybuilders who read a book on nutrition after practising bodybuilding for years. The book makes a lot more sense to us then and we believe it because we have already experienced first hand what we are now reading.
So no wonder this guy left Christianity. A relationship with Jesus Christ is everything. Christianity as a religion won't get you anywhere. Too many so called "Christians" unfortunately have never really experienced Jesus Christ and do not even know what Christianity is all about. They don't even read the Bible. Many of these "Christians" are who later become ex-Christians. I've never heard of a Christian who truly experienced Jesus Christ's changing power to later leave Christianity.
Thanks again for posting these!
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Well, I read this one. Very interesting, but this guy was never a Christian.
He never once mentioned accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour, never once did he mention a time when Jesus Christ transformed him or changed his life.
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
2 Corinthians 5:17
"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
2 Corinthians 3:18
He never once mentioned a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Jesus said:
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
John 17:3
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
John 17:25-26
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me"
John 10:14
These are not mere Bible quotes. I have experienced this first hand even before reading it. I give testimony that it is the truth. It's like some of us bodybuilders who read a book on nutrition after practising bodybuilding for years. The book makes a lot more sense to us then and we believe it because we have already experienced first hand what we are now reading.
So no wonder this guy left Christianity. A relationship with Jesus Christ is everything. Christianity as a religion won't get you anywhere. Too many so called "Christians" unfortunately have never really experienced Jesus Christ and do not even know what Christianity is all about. They don't even read the Bible. Many of these "Christians" are who later become ex-Christians. I've never heard of a Christian who truly experienced Jesus Christ's changing power to later leave Christianity.
Beautifully said. :)
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it is clear that there will always be things that we can not explain. but to simply chalk it up to god is not critical or logical. however, i beleive that there is a god, things like telepathy etc have been demostrated so i beleive the world has a supernatural exsistence. i guess we'll find out when we die but believing in a god is definitely better for your health.
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it is clear that there will always be things that we can not explain. but to simply chalk it up to god is not critical or logical. however, i beleive that there is a god, things like telepathy etc have been demostrated so i beleive the world has a supernatural exsistence. i guess we'll find out when we die but believing in a god is definitely better for your health.
ad ignorantium, fallacy from ignorance.
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studies show that believing in god is better for your health . it increases life expectancy as much as exercise and statin drugs. also, telepathy has been demonstrated via the ganzfeld experiments. learn about something before you spout off about ignorance when you infact are ignorant to the information.
i can get the article if you like
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religious people are usually more optimistic then non-religious people which leads to better life outcomes. believing in something gives purpose and direction in life. religion also has an positive effects via the reward center in the brain the mesotelencephalic dopamine system which potentiates da release in the nucleus accumbens. this increases positive mood thus better health outcomes. prayer seems to be a rewarding ritual and a stress relieving tool equal to meditation.
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Less Depression, Smoking, And Alcohol Abuse
In a study of more than five hundred African-American men conducted by Wayne State University in Detroit, significant correlation between the participants' religious involvement and their health. The researchers identified a number of indicators of true religious commitment, including overall religiosity and church attendance. They found these were linked to various beneficial health effects, such as less depression, little or no smoking, and infrequency of alcohol consumption.
(Source: November 1994 issue of the Journal of the National Medical Association)
Healthier Mothers And Babies
Maternity patients with a strong religious commitment, and their newborns, who were studied at the Department of Family Medicine, East Carolina University, had fewer medical complications than maternity patients without a religious affiliation.
(Source: November 1994 issue of Southern Medical Journal)
Protection From Colon And Rectal Cancer
In an Australian study of patients with cancer of the colon or rectum, 715 cancer patients were compared with 727 "controls" without cancer.
The researchers found that the respondents who saw themselves as most religious were less likely to have cancer than those who were not as religious. In other words, self-perceived "religiousness" was a statistically significant protective factor against the disease!
Another interesting finding in this study was that self-reported or perceived religiousness was associated with median survival times of sixty-two months. In contrast, those patients who reported themselves as "non-religious" had a median survival time of only fifty-two months.
(Source: November 1993 issue of the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine)
Improved Coping With Breast Cancer
A number of studies have associated a deep religious faith with an ability to cope more effectively with cancer, including breast cancer.
Researchers at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio published a study about the impact of deep faith on the condition of women with breast cancer. They found that with a group of Anglo-American patients, "intrinsic religiousness" was a strong predictor of spiritual well-being and hope- both of which are important factors for successfully coping with cancer.
(Source: Oncologocial Nurse's Forum, September 1993)
A Healthier Emotional Balance
A study at Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, ranked participating young men and women as high, medium, or low in the quality of their personal religious commitment. Those in the high religious category, regardless of their religious denomination, scored highest for self-esteem, emotional maturity, and nondepression.
(Source: June 1993 issue of Psychological Reports)
Lower Blood Pressure, Healthier Cardiovascular System And Reduced Stress
A commitment to maintain significant social ties, including marriage and religious community involvements -and a willingness to act on such commitments-can have tremendous beneficial effects on health.
A study on this issue, involving more than 1,100 healthy men and women aged seventy to seventy-nine, was reported by Yale epidemiologist Lisa Berkman at a January 1995 meeting of the American Medical Association. She confirmed that strong emotional support and social ties can help lower blood pressure and enhance survival after a heart attack.
Berkman also found that significant social ties, including close friendships and family relationships, improved the levels in the brain of the chemicals norepinephrine and cortisol, which have been associated with excessive stress.
Stronger Marriage Ties
Religious compatibility between spouses at the time of marriage has a large influence on marital stability. A study, conducted by E. L. Lehrer and C. U Chiswick of the Economics Department of the University of Illinois at Chicago, also found that spouses of different faiths generally break up more often than those with a common faith.
(Source: August 1993 issue of the journal Demography)
A commitment to a meaningful marriage-rather than just cohabiting with a partner or remaining single-has also been linked in scientific studies to some specific health benefits. Researchers from the University of Chicago found that divorced men had twice the rate of alcohol abuse as married men. Divorced women also had more problems with alcohol than their married counterparts. Other researchers reported that those who live together before marriage have higher divorce rates, are more likely to be sexually disloyal, and are generally less happy than married couples.
(Source: Conferences of the Population Association of America, April 1995)
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http://www.infidels.org/secular_web/feature/1998/prayer-USAToday.html
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/religionhealth.html
i guess im not the ignorant one. i have more if you like, but loco did a good job of posting some of them for me.
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it is clear that there will always be things that we can not explain. but to simply chalk it up to god is not critical or logical.
I was commenting on that sentence right there. Relax man, I never said you were ignorant. I was AGREEING with you. I just felt like giving the actually philosophical term for your comment. I'm sorry?
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no prob some people on hear are dicks thats all. however i do think the complexities and inprobablities of life in all forms is evidence of design.
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yet the complexity of an omniscient, omnipotent multi-dimensional being wouldn't require an intelligent creator? It's somehow hard for you to believe a frog evolved but you embrace the idea of a god which has always existed? You people are funny. ;D
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the implication of complexity would indicate a higher intelligence or something which co-ordinated the events. the insane improbabilities of random chance forming the order seen today is wholely as unbelievable. you keep missing the point the faith in atheism is just as much of a leap of faith as creationism. you break sci laws to conform to atheism for what you cannot explain, which is impossible. what about the idea of god that seems hardwired into humanity. i'll wait for you to reply before i continue with this concept. and dont google some links, post your own logic and thoughts i cant read anymore links.
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There is nothing in the universe which indicates god(s) exist. If he created everything, then he sure f*cked up. Why do millions of solar systems have planets but no life? What was the purpose of creating dinosaurs and then destroying them? How come the human eye has an optical nerve in front of the retina? This actually reflects poor design. Why do animals which spend their entire lives in water have lungs instead of gills? What is the purpose of viruses, parasites, and harmful bacteria?
Design in nature doesn't automatically necessitate an intelligent creator. Would you believe these are real snowflakes made in clouds?
(http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/photos/w041219b055.jpg)
(http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/photos/w031224a130.jpg)
(http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/photos/w031230a113.jpg)
I disagree that atheism requires a leap of faith like creationism. Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god(s) until evidence of its existence is found. So far, there is no shred of evidence that proves god exist. Creationism, however, actively claims god is real and created everything without proof. This is a leap of faith.
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Sucks for you Sybil. I see Him working in my life every single day. It's a beautiful thing. Hopefully you'll find Him one day too.
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nah, you're just imagining Him. Who is Sybil?
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nah, you're just imagining Him. Who is Sybil?
Google it. Famous person with multiple personalities.
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I did. Sybil was a woman.
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There is nothing in the universe which indicates god(s) exist. If he created everything, then he sure f*cked up. Why do millions of solar systems have planets but no life? What was the purpose of creating dinosaurs and then destroying them? How come the human eye has an optical nerve in front of the retina? This actually reflects poor design. Why do animals which spend their entire lives in water have lungs instead of gills? What is the purpose of viruses, parasites, and harmful bacteria?
Design in nature doesn't automatically necessitate an intelligent creator. Would you believe these are real snowflakes made in clouds?
I disagree that atheism requires a leap of faith like creationism. Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god(s) until evidence of its existence is found. So far, there is no shred of evidence that proves god exist. Creationism, however, actively claims god is real and created everything without proof. This is a leap of faith.
asking questions that are impossible to answer is pointless. what is the point of life is a question similar to yours which i cannot supply and answer. however, the mere inprobability of life occuring by chance is evidence of something manipulating life to make it so. do you know what the chances of life evolving from the big bang are. 10 to the -40 or impossible in statistical terms. take the example of dropping a glass on the ground how many pieces will it break in to? you dont know but what are the chances that it will form many small glasses? impossible you say then why is it beleivable with no intervention and creation that the big bang could create rotating spheres( basically all anything is ) that are so ordered, or so precise that variation of multifarious points would cease exsistence. you miss the point about atheism also, it is a leap of faith, because of the sheer improbabilty and the faith you have in unproved theories. if you look up the def of faith you will accept that atheism the belief in no god, therefore random chance, is a faith discipline.
yet the complexity of an omniscient, omnipotent multi-dimensional being wouldn't require an intelligent creator? It's somehow hard for you to believe a frog evolved but you embrace the idea of a god which has always existed? You people are funny. ;D
if you look up the definition of the words contained in your post, you already gave yourself the answer to how god can be infinite while the universe cannot be. also the idea that we can think of a god is interesting from a philosophical stand point. also, what is the cause of the effect of the universe?
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also, what about the biblical accuracy of geological records to date. and the dead sea scrolls written hundreds of years before christ yet predicting his arrival, activities and resurection.
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also, what about the biblical accuracy of geological records to date. and the dead sea scrolls written hundreds of years before christ yet predicting his arrival, activities and resurection.
Just because some scrolls predict the arrival of something doesn't mean the thing that is named that something is that something that was predicted.
Also there is accurate history in the BIble. Doesn't means it's the word of god. A 1910 High School history book has geological records to date but that doesn't mean the rest of teh text in it is the word of God.
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your point about the geology book is moot. it is not in the same context as i am talking about predicting future events while your example is after the fact, not a valid argument. also, read about the dead sea scrolls and they will give improbable accuracy, not some general blanket statement you paint it to be.
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asking questions that are impossible to answer is pointless. what is the point of life is a question similar to yours which i cannot supply and answer.
My questions may be pointless unto themselves but not in the context of our discussion. You claim design in nature is proof of an intelligent creator. However, you assume nature is intelligently designed. I provided several examples in the form of rhetorical questions which clearly show this is not true. I did not intend for you to answer them.
however, the mere inprobability of life occuring by chance is evidence of something manipulating life to make it so. do you know what the chances of life evolving from the big bang are. 10 to the -40 or impossible in statistical terms.
Reference please? Your statistic means absolutely nothing without a credible source. I might as well say the probability of life occuring on its own is 10 to the -10.
take the example of dropping a glass on the ground how many pieces will it break in to? you dont know but what are the chances that it will form many small glasses? impossible you say then why is it beleivable with no intervention and creation that the big bang could create rotating spheres( basically all anything is ) that are so ordered, or so precise that variation of multifarious points would cease exsistence.
Your analogy is flawed b/c you described a closed system. Obviously the broken shards of glass will remain so until an outside force acts on them. Life is an open system b/c the Earth recieves energy from the sun. It's possible for order to arise from disorder in nature. For example, a mature tomato plant has more usable energy than the seed it grew from. Snowflakes, hurricanes, and lightning are all forms of order coming from disorder. None of them require an intelligent creator.
you miss the point about atheism also, it is a leap of faith, because of the sheer improbabilty and the faith you have in unproved theories. if you look up the def of faith you will accept that atheism the belief in no god, therefore random chance, is a faith discipline.
There are different types of atheism. You choose to attack one type. However, I still contend that even a strong atheist doesn't require a leap of faith. It's called being rational. There is no shred of evidence of god(s) existence. Do you consider yourself agnostic when it comes to invisible pink unicorns and leprechauns? Are you sure that Santa Claus isn't real? I highly doubt if somebody asked you if you believe in a flying turd monster, you would respond "I'm not really sure. You see? There is no evidence that proves he doesn't exist. So I choose to be agnostic."
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also, what about the biblical accuracy of geological records to date. and the dead sea scrolls written hundreds of years before christ yet predicting his arrival, activities and resurection.
There are many fictional books that contain facts, yet they are still fictional. What's your point? Let's just assume Christ was even real. How does a book written over 2,000 yrs ago prove he was the son of God?
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your point about the geology book is moot. it is not in the same context as i am talking about predicting future events while your example is after the fact, not a valid argument. also, read about the dead sea scrolls and they will give improbable accuracy, not some general blanket statement you paint it to be.
So the History of Jesus, which was written 50 years after his death couldn't be "taylored" to fit into the OT predictions they had in their "widely" used scrolls at the time?
Of course they could have. That's why OT predictions and NT writings are moot. They are not proof of anything.
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My questions may be pointless unto themselves but not in the context of our discussion. You claim design in nature is proof of an intelligent creator. However, you assume nature is intelligently designed. I provided several examples in the form of rhetorical questions which clearly show this is not true. I did not intend for you to answer them.
Reference please? Your statistic means absolutely nothing without a credible source. I might as well say the probability of life occuring on its own is 10 to the -10.
Your analogy is flawed b/c you described a closed system. Obviously the broken shards of glass will remain so until an outside force acts on them. Life is an open system b/c the Earth recieves energy from the sun. It's possible for order to arise from disorder in nature. For example, a mature tomato plant has more usable energy than the seed it grew from. Snowflakes, hurricanes, and lightning are all forms of order coming from disorder. None of them require an intelligent creator.
There are different types of atheism. You choose to attack one type. However, I still contend that even a strong atheist doesn't require a leap of faith. It's called being rational. There is no shred of evidence of god(s) existence. Do you consider yourself agnostic when it comes to invisible pink unicorns and leprechauns? Are you sure that Santa Claus isn't real? I highly doubt if somebody asked you if you believe in a flying turd monster, you would respond "I'm not really sure. You see? There is no evidence that proves he doesn't exist. So I choose to be agnostic."
pink and unicorns exist however, this is a philosophical point that because we can conceive of such a being it exists. you cant conceive of anything within langauge or symbolism that doesn't exist, this is an outdated argument yet valid within the argument of pink unicorns and such.
i choose to attack the idea that life came from random chance to order, and challenge the atheist claims about laws being broken such as the second law of thermodynamics, which states quite simple that everything goes from complex to simple. also, what is the mechanism in which life arranges itself, in that i mean how does and frog become a frog, no mechanism has been established in which bacterium creates a frog or in which the parts of a frog evolve synergistically as would have to occur for life to happen. speciation but that has never been seen in a macro sense.
also, what of the utter lack of transitional fossils which refute evolution and the geological accuracies found within the bible.
also evidence is seen in the improbabilities of life arising through the mechnisms you claim.
you keep missing this point and claim that a god is inprobable. manipulation is the only conceivable mechanism left to the intellect once impossiblity is established by normal means. i mean there must be an answer and there must be a cause to the effect of the universe.
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So the History of Jesus, which was written 50 years after his death couldn't be "taylored" to fit into the OT predictions they had in their "widely" used scrolls at the time?
Of course they could have. That's why OT predictions and NT writings are moot. They are not proof of anything.
i dont understand your point the scrolls were written before jesus thus making them predictions of the future. you have mis-information.
what about in the quran the explanation of how a un-born child is shaped like a leech to the mothers uterus and forms a blood clot, which according to the top embryologists in the world is a common description. there are many other things stated in the books which could not be known at the time which indicate predictive ability. but like i already said quantum physics explains clairvoyance and the like but not to this degree.
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1760096128712631511&q=evidence+of+god
good video discussing some of my points and about the improbabilties and predictions of the bible. i am not a religious person per se by the way.
also, NS, i appreciate the fact that you haven't resorted to name calling and the like and you seem intelligent. i am simply debating the alterior explanation wether i believe it or not.
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i dont understand your point the scrolls were written before jesus thus making them predictions of the future. you have mis-information.
what about in the quran the explanation of how a un-born child is shaped like a leech to the mothers uterus and forms a blood clot, which according to the top embryologists in the world is a common description. there are many other things stated in the books which could not be known at the time which indicate predictive ability. but like i already said quantum physics explains clairvoyance and the like but not to this degree.
My point is Jesus's history was written to fit into those predictions. therefor moot.
The knowledge of an unborn child was likley from some one cutting open various uteruses at different stages of pregnantcy. Barbaric? Yes. Typical barbasrism of the time? yes.
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good point about jesus ozmo.
the Qurans level of babymaking is at a level were the eye cannot detect thus making it impossible to know by your methods. watch the video( it is interesting if nothing else), i must ask though are you an atheist?
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good point about jesus ozmo.
the Qurans level of babymaking is at a level were the eye cannot detect thus making it impossible to know by your methods. watch the video( it is interesting if nothing else), i must ask though are you an atheist?
I'm not an athiest at all. I believe in GOD. I just don't believe in organized religion and the BIBle and Koran is a BIg part of organized religion.
I'll watch the video when i get home from work. :)
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pink and unicorns exist however, this is a philosophical point that because we can conceive of such a being it exists. you cant conceive of anything within langauge or symbolism that doesn't exist, this is an outdated argument yet valid within the argument of pink unicorns and such.
I can concieve that we live in a dream world and none of this is real. God is just a figment of our imaginations. Your religious belief is no more valid than mine since neither can be disproven.
i choose to attack the idea that life came from random chance to order, and challenge the atheist claims about laws being broken such as the second law of thermodynamics, which states quite simple that everything goes from complex to simple. also, what is the mechanism in which life arranges itself, in that i mean how does and frog become a frog, no mechanism has been established in which bacterium creates a frog or in which the parts of a frog evolve synergistically as would have to occur for life to happen. speciation but that has never been seen in a macro sense.
You can attack abiogenesis all you want. The fact remains abiogenesis did occur. We had to come from somewhere. Whether we evolved from non-living matter or god(s) made us, that's another discussion. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is not being broken. Your ignorance stems from a misunderstanding of what the law states. It says the entropy of a closed system cannot decrease. Life is not a closed system. The mechanism which describes change in the gene pool of a poplulation over time is evolution.
also, what of the utter lack of transitional fossils which refute evolution and the geological accuracies found within the bible.
(http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/hominids2.jpg)
(http://starklab.slu.edu/Bio104/HorseEvol.jpg)
(http://www.answersingenesis.org/images/164pic1.jpg)
Geographical accuracies in the bible are just that - geographical accuracies! I fail to see how this proves god exist.
also evidence is seen in the improbabilities of life arising through the mechnisms you claim.
you keep missing this point and claim that a god is inprobable. manipulation is the only conceivable mechanism left to the intellect once impossiblity is established by normal means. i mean there must be an answer and there must be a cause to the effect of the universe.
Then what created god?
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no no, i am not ignorant about the second law of thermodynamics it states that complexity will tend towards the simple. the universe is a closed system, the big bang cements that as well as red shift and many other facts. thus who put the energy in. no one created god, he is omnipotent thus infinite i already described this.
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no no, i am not ignorant about the second law of thermodynamics it states that complexity will tend towards the simple. the universe is a closed system, the big bang cements that as well as red shift and many other facts.
Actually, the 2nd law of thermodynamics says "no process is possible in which the net result is the transfer of energy from a cooler to a hotter body." How is this law violated? Once the stars burn out, the universe will be a cold, dark place.
thus who put the energy in. no one created god, he is omnipotent thus infinite i already described this.
Nobody knows for sure what caused the Big Bang. However, you cannot substitute god(s) for a lack of knowledge. This is a logical fallacy. Who or what created god? For all we know, we could be living in someone's dream.
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So the History of Jesus, which was written 50 years after his death couldn't be "taylored" to fit into the OT predictions they had in their "widely" used scrolls at the time?
NO. There is prophecy that was foretold hundreds of years before Jesus was born, then fulfilled hundreds of years after the gospels were written.
Fulfilled Bible Prophecy: Jerusalem Eastern Gate
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neo, see the you pick thread as to why evolution sucks. and why there are no transitional fossils, but nice picture anyway.
oh ya that bird fossil has already been refuted by a precluding fossil found years later. so no it is not a transitional fossil.
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neo, see the you pick thread as to why evolution sucks. and why there are no transitional fossils, but nice picture anyway.
There are plenty of transitional fossils. You just choose to ignore the evidence.
oh ya that bird fossil has already been refuted by a precluding fossil found years later. so no it is not a transitional fossil.
No, it hasn't. Please show me a scientific article that says Archaeopteryx was refuted. The definition of a transitional fossil is one that displays a mosaic of features from an older and more recent organism. It does not mean a fossil that is a direct ancestor of one organism and a direct descendant of another. Archaeopteryx had many dinosaurian characteristics which are not found in modern birds while having certain characteristics found in birds but not in dinosaurs. By virtue of this fact, Archaeopteryx represents a transitional fossil.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/archaeopteryx/info.html