In terms of both historical logic (judging standards, precedents, and so on) and physique quality, this decision is still not sitting right with me.
They will all be up here when all is said and done:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/olympia2006updates.html
For starters:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/jaycutlerwins.html
In terms of both historical logic (judging standards, precedents, and so on) and physique quality, this decision is still not sitting right with me.
I don't think there was a single Mr. Olympia contest where any industry expert would say Dorian dominated. Won? Sure. But there is a difference between simply winning a contest and winning it by such a large margin that there is no room for doubt in the minds of the people in the know.
Matt you really don't know what you're talking about , seriously . Dorian was one of the most dominant bodybuilders EVER ! he enetered 17 shows and won 15 of them . the only two times he did lose were both second places . almost every single one of his Mr Oympia wins were with straight firsts , 1992 he dominated , in 1993 he set a new standard and he the judges didn't even need to call him out in the muscularity round because he was so far ahead of everyone. 1994 off from 1993 but still good enough to win , to my knowlege he didn't get straight first in one of the posing rounds but did in the meat & potatos , the symmetry & muscularity rounds , 1995 MATCH his 1993 overall package and DOMINATED just like 1993
1995 was the contest Paul Dillett said " I've seen Jesus Christ and he looks like Dorian Yates " thats a hell of an endorsment. 1996 another easy win , not as dominant as 93/95 but another day in the office . 1997 now let me preface this with my personal opinion , I personally don't think he should have won. however the judges gave him straight firsts in all 4 rounds this means he beat everyone with ease ! Durring his reign he faced ONLY one person with the potentail to beat him and thats was Flex Wheeler and we all know how that turned out. Dorian's win percentage rate is 88% and thats amazing considering its such a subjective sport compared that to Ronnie whos win percentage is just 42% and its plainly evident who dominated the sport of bodybuilding and who didn't.
Now concerning 2006 , I looked at the pictures from as many sources as I could find and my first impression was " Wow Ronnie is really off , even more so than 2001/2002 " and then Jay was much improved even from 2005 and I thought they're gonna screw Jay again and what a shame it would be too .
I had Jay winning the the ab-thigh , side chest , side triceps and the back latspread and double biceps , it was painfully obvious Jay was the better conditioned athlete and according to the judges he beat Ronnie easily and he they did the right thing. Now I understand you're a huge Ronnie fan but please understand bias is preventing you from seeing the facts and the fact is Ronnie lost fair & square.
ND - what I mean is that in every year it can be debated that Dorian could have lost. Whereas Ronnie had 1998 and 2003 where nobody would open it to debate.
Perhaps Dorian in 1992 definitely won with no questions asked, although Kevin Levrone felt the title was his. Dorian won handily, but there is a difference between winning by a narrow margin (like Ronnie in 2005) versus winning by a country mile (Ronnie in 2003). I think Dorian more or less usually won by a narrow margin, albeit consistently.
I still think Ronnie should have won this year, but Jay's back lat spread was incredible and definitely ahead of Ronnie's which is made even more impressive in light of the fact that three years ago Ronnie was so far ahead of Jay it would have been like comparing a top pro to a top amateur competitor: meaning there was NO comparison. Good on Jay for making those improvements.
Pictures from 2003 with Ronnie destroying Jay. This was a victory and not one by a narrow margin:
http://www.flexonline.com/news/17
Since when Paul Dillett is the voice of the truth ND? Come on dude, once you said that Sergio's opinion about Ronnie being much better than Dorian was crap, and now you invoke nothing less than Paul Dillett... a real authority!
I can agree with you about Jay defeating Ronnie in back latspread and double bis, and side triceps. Actually I can go as far as saying that Ronnie didn't win the front lat spread. But how in the hell you can say that Ronnie lost the side chest??? And the abs and thighs?
I had Ronnie first but I can survive with the decision of the judges, it's a subjective sport. However the claim that Ronnie lost fair and square is false, heavily influenced by the hype and the bunch of trolls that lately are particularly excited on this board.
I'm not saying Dorian wasn't the clear victor, but as I said, there is a difference between winning by a wide margin and winning in a fashion like Ronnie did in 2000-2002 where it can be debated the decision could go the other way with relative ease.
Do most industry experts agree that 1992, 1993, and 1995 were not open for debate for Dorian's victories? In which case, I would admit I'm wrong.
They will all be up here when all is said and done:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/olympia2006updates.html
For starters:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/jaycutlerwins.html
In terms of both historical logic (judging standards, precedents, and so on) and physique quality, this decision is still not sitting right with me.
(http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/mrolympia2006pj/2006olympia_pre_men148.jpg)
(http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/mrolympia2006pj/2006olympia_pre_men192.jpg)
I watermarked the pictures and they are courtesy of www.bodybuilding.com (http://www.jdoqocy.com/click-1881271-10409943)
Paul is NOT the voice of truth but his opinion of being at the 1995 is indictive of the general consensus that Dorian like in 1993 simply dominated everyone , I've read all the contest footage from the magazines and not just Flex and all resoundly are unanimous .
Now to Ronnie 2006 again when I looked at the pictures and NOT from just Flexonline I couldn't believe how off Ronnie was and I thought Jay improved from last year , after veiwing the pics I came to the conclusion Jay was better and not by just a little , but my fear was Ronnie was going to be handed a gift and that would have been sad , but the judges did the right thing , on the scorecard it wasn't even close 22 to 38
Normally Ronnie would win the side chest and ab-thigh but not in 06 , he was smooth as a babies ass , he was a wreck and frankly I'm surprised it wasn't closer between him and Victor , anyway Shawn Ray and Milos both had Ronnie as losing and most of the writers who were there , I know its extremly difficult for a Coleman fan to deal with but Ronnie was NOT deserving to win and I don't think Jay is what I would consider Mr Olympia material , hell I would have been happy if Melvin won but based on the criteria they've been using Jay was the desereving winner , Jay may not be better than Ronnie 364 days out of the year but he was most certainly better than Ronnie on the day it matter most .
Wasn't it debated that Flex should have won in 1993? And by 1995, Dorian only had one arm, so how could he have dominated?
I can accept that Jay should have won, but for the judges to put him ahead of Ronnie in the front poses? Please!
ND do you seriously have Jay winning this pose?....
(http://mr-olympia-2006.ronnie.cz/callouts/img/lide/22/3.jpg)(http://mr-olympia-2006.ronnie.cz/callouts/img/lide/18/3.jpg)
I mean, seriously?
You know I'm willing to say it could be a push I'm open for debate on this pose .come on Narc, i'm the biggest Cutler fan around but Ronnie is killing Jay on that shot.
What I know for sure is how to call inconsistencies when I see them.
Whether things turned out in his favour or not, Jay was still being irrational and ignorant to feel he had a chance of winning this year. In the entire history of the Mr. Olympia contest with a few exceptions (but none in the past 21 years), the reigning champ ALWAYS wins. Ronnie beat Jay before under similar circumstances.
So why did things change in 2006? Even IF you could argue Jay deserved the win (I would not agree), he STILL should have placed second based on history and simple logic. Not to say I agree with the concept of the reigning champ always winning, but I'm just pointing out that that is how it is and for it to be different this year is very odd, wouldn't you say?
While Jay looks very good in that pose, I don't see any area where he is beating Ronnie. Unless it was that his posing was better and he held the pose for longer or displayed his muscle better. But in terms of physique, from head to toe I would give that pose to Ronnie.
Actually the judges gave Jay this pose , so again I'm open for debate.
Ronnie has never been "very" beatable throughout his career! Possibly beatable is one thing, but never has it been the case where he was clearly and easily beatable - not this year either. And Ronnie wasn't off this year. He was defintely on, just not to the degree he had been in the past.
I think some people on here are judging this contest based on personal bests. Saying Victor should beat Ronnie is laughable. Just because Victor was closer to his personal best than Ronnie was doesn't mean Victor should have beat him (some have suggested this).
I don't think he was lucky to win in 1998 - I think he was lucky to win in 2002.
ND, you still haven't addressed by point: in the history of the Mr. Olympia, the reigning champ will win as long as he is top three caliber.
Do I agree with this unwritten rule? No. But why was this year an exception?
They will all be up here when all is said and done:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/olympia2006updates.html
For starters:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/jaycutlerwins.html
In terms of both historical logic (judging standards, precedents, and so on) and physique quality, this decision is still not sitting right with me.
(http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/mrolympia2006pj/2006olympia_pre_men148.jpg)
(http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/mrolympia2006pj/2006olympia_pre_men192.jpg)
I watermarked the pictures and they are courtesy of www.bodybuilding.com (http://www.jdoqocy.com/click-1881271-10409943)
ARIAL - my favourite!!!
I think times new roman is worse than a sweaty swimming pool full of old mincers.
If we look at the past 21 years of bodybuilding history, we see that the reigning Mr. Olympia will always win as long as he is top three at the night of the show. I don't think the Mr. Olympia title has ever really been guaranteed to go to the best man of the night. As long as a reigning Mr. Olympia comes in a show in respectable conditioning and could be argued to be the winner - he will win.
Do I think Ronnie should have won all of his titles? Well, unlike some (ND), I don't consider a gut to be an auto-failure, so most of his wins I think were deserved. In 2002, I think the best argument could have been made for Kevin or Gunter beating Ronnie. Regardless of my personal view, based on judging standards in politics, Ronnie was a sure winner from the moment he won his first title. That's just simple history.
Jay was by all rights being irrational, ignorant, and even dare I say stupid in thinking he could have won the show. To get to his level takes the obvious time, money, and health risks, coupled with the fact that he skipped the Arnold two years in a row to get where he did, so he lost out on those earnings too - which were also guaranteed for political reasons. He won the show, and the IFBB couldn't have awarded the title to a better man and more dedicated bodybuilder.
But my question is - why? Had Ronnie won on the weekend, it would have been business as usual. You would have just as many people saying he deserved it as any other year, and just as many people saying Jay deserved it. So what was with the change? Since I will be the first to say that the top bodybuilding shows are not given to the best of the man day (2004 ASC, 2002 O, etc) and are ALWAYS political, what is the benefit to have Jay crowned champ?
Like I said, whether I agree with the judging decisions or not, I will be the first to say that Ronnie's victories were also politically oriented at times. Politics always plays a role, whether I like the outcome or not, and I will admit it. So were what the politics behind Jay? Forget about debating physique quality here - I'm talking strictly about politics.
Hey, ND, has dorian cum yet?
ND, hindsight is 20/20.
At the time, Jay was still being irrational to think he had a chance. The intelligent and likely predicted outcome would have been another victory for Ronnie. Whether or not Ronnie would even deserve it was besides the point.
when you sit back and look at all of ND's pro dorian arguments, they are ALWAYS based ON NUMBERS.
ie because the judges said he scored this and that therefore he was great and dominant.
the problem is, this argument ignores the fact that in terms of QUALITY, dorian was severely lacking
even here in 1995, supposedly one of his dominant years.
ND has never really given any sort of credibilty to any pics, scans or videos.
If he did - he would be saying what all of us are saying:
that dorian had major flaws and was dominant only because of a different (and flawed) judging philosophy of
size
over quality
period.
thankfully, times changed during the Ronnie reign:
quality was rewarded.
This industry is ruled by money and politics. That should be obvious.biggest meltdown in getbig history has just unfolded do to ronnie colemens loss!
Attemping to ban speech about the PDI in magazines? ???
Get real! Talk about a monopoly. How can you even try to justify that BS?
Do I think politics are involved? Sure - for the reasons you specified. But this has definitely not been the first time politics have been used in bodybuilding. Think about Jay winning the 2004 ASC being as flat as a pancake for example. Also, why did Ronnie win the challenge round when it counted, but when it didn't - he lost?
Yeah, explain that one. ::)
Corruption in the IFBB?? Never!
Also - hook me up with as much PDI stuff as you can. I'm going to do my best to spread the word about it as much as possible.
ND - what I am trying to say is that even if Jay believed in himself and even if he deserved to win, probability would have it so he didn't win. That is why it was irrational for him to think he could win. I didn't doubt he could beat Ronnie if Ronnie came in off, but I didn't think beating him wouldn't get him the title. I felt that even IF Jay was the better man of the day, he would come second. So it's not so much that I didn't believe in Jay, it's that I had a better understanding of IFBB politics than he did. That is, until Jay won. Obviously the politics changed too.
ND, hindsight is 20/20.
At the time, Jay was still being irrational to think he had a chance. The intelligent and likely predicted outcome would have been another victory for Ronnie. Whether or not Ronnie would even deserve it was besides the point.
Well reguardless of anyones personal opinions the judges gave Dorian straight firsts in 1993/1995/1996/1997 and thats as good as it gets , you can't get a better score , in 93 he set a new standard in bodybuilding and he matched that in 1995 thats as wide of a margian as you can get , I don't know if he got straight firsts in 1992 but if it was a close contest they would have made note of that , which they didn't .
Ronnie has never been "very" beatable throughout his career! Possibly beatable is one thing, but never has it been the case where he was clearly and easily beatable - not this year either. And Ronnie wasn't off this year. He was defintely on, just not to the degree he had been in the past.
I think some people on here are judging this contest based on personal bests. Saying Victor should beat Ronnie is laughable. Just because Victor was closer to his personal best than Ronnie was doesn't mean Victor should have beat him (some have suggested this).
I don't think he was lucky to win in 1998 - I think he was lucky to win in 2002.
ND, you still haven't addressed by point: in the history of the Mr. Olympia, the reigning champ will win as long as he is top three caliber.
Do I agree with this unwritten rule? No. But why was this year an exception?
IT will no longer be a rule. Also I have ALWAYS said - Ronnie was beatable. ALWAYS. He is a great bodybuilder - however most of the athlete seem to always beat themselves before they even go out on stage, because they do not beleive they can win.
Ali , Arnold and jordan loss - what made them great was coming back and winning again-
There is more than 3 that are worth now and the caliper has increase and thank you to ronnie for holding it down why the kids finally grew up!
TRUE STORY
My second article is up:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/jaycutlerversusronniecoleman2006.html
More to come. I'm trying to be as fair and neutral as possible when I write these. My guess would be Jay won the Mr. Olympia due to his back. Everything else can pretty well be debated.
Because of this statement?
I've taken back this statement in part when I acknowledged that 1995 may have been the year he did in fact dominate, torn biceps and all. 1993 you could still make a strong argument for Flex Wheeler.
Also, you are one of the few who would say I am not neutral. Even the Jay sperm drinkers on here can see that I will be the first to point out Jay's strengths and Ronnie's weaknesses.
1993 may have been another year. It comes down to whether you like shape or size I guess - with Dorian taking the lead in conditioning.
However, aside from 1993 and 1995, wouldn't you agree the other years were all debatable? Ronnie had wins like this too.