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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Sports Discussion Boards => Topic started by: Dos Equis on March 26, 2007, 06:48:11 PM
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Couldn't have said it better myself. :)
Putting Kobe in perspective
By Jemele Hill
Page 2
Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan.
Not more successful.
Hasn't had a bigger economic impact.
Hasn't won more MVPs.
Hasn't won more titles.
But he's a better player.
Kobe can do everything Michael did, and even a few things Michael couldn't do.
Kobe is just as good a defender. His killer instinct is just as pronounced. He can shoot, finish and explode. And just like Jordan, the more he's pissed off, the more unstoppable he is.
At the very least, Kobe's scoring spree over the last week should put to rest any lingering doubts that he's the best player in the NBA. Yes, better than Steve Nash, who is the best point guard, but not the lethal force that Kobe is. Yes, better than Dwyane Wade, who is certainly closer to the Kobe-Jordan level than LeBron James, but D-Wade's game is not as polished as Kobe's.
Kobe's streak of four straight 50-points-plus games is something none of those players can do, and it's something that hasn't been done since Wilt Chamberlain, who had an NBA-record seven straight 50-point games. Truthfully, Kobe should have tacked another 50 on Golden State on Sunday night.
Of course, the idea that Kobe is better than Jordan -- or even the best player in this league -- is as repugnant to some folks as a rectal exam. Even though Kobe has proven himself under pressure countless times, he gets the A-Rod treatment.
Kobe can't please anyone. And it doesn't help that most people suffer from revisionist history when it comes to Jordan, forgetting that he was just as poor a teammate and a ball hog and that he ran off coach Doug Collins like Kobe ran off Phil Jackson the first time.
In fact, you could argue that Jordan was even worse. Far as we know, Kobe hasn't jacked up any of his teammates the way Jordan punched out Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at practice.
Kobe will never be forgiven for Shaq's departure, but you're delusional if you think Jordan wouldn't have had any ego issues playing alongside a player with Shaq's star power.
The best-player argument shouldn't be determined by personal dislike. But if you want to take it there, fine. Jordan was hardly the ideal husband, but only the tabloids were brave enough to venture into his personal life. And what about those gambling issues? If Jordan's life had been covered like Kobe's, we would have an entirely different opinion of His Airness.
Besides a different level of media scrutiny, there was definitely a difference in the level of competition during Jordan's heyday compared to now.
Yesterday's NBA player certainly was more fundamentally sound, but there's no question that today's player is bigger, stronger and faster. When Jordan played, he was a singular force that could not be equaled. Jordan was guarded by the likes of John Starks and Joe Dumars, who were fine players but weren't nearly as skilled or physically imposing as LeBron, D-Wade, Tracy McGrady or even Vince Carter.
The NBA is tougher now.
Kobe, like Michael, is surrounded with mediocre to below-average talent, and Phoenix, Dallas and San Antonio are all better than the Utah, Portland and the Charles Barkley-led Phoenix team that Michael met in the NBA Finals.
Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing will be among the best centers ever, but none of them affected the league the way Shaq and Tim Duncan have. There are two two-time MVPs in Kobe's own conference (Duncan, Nash), which is a problem Jordan never faced during his championship runs. Seven-footers weren't launching 3s back then. Magic Johnson and the Lakers were on a downward spiral, and the Pistons were on their last legs. It was Michael and everyone else. That's not the case for Kobe.
The shame of it is that Kobe might finish his career without a MVP, even though his ability can be compared only to that of Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain. All this time we've been looking for a player who is better than Jordan, but most of us can't get beyond whether we like or dislike Kobe as a person to recognize his contributions to the game.
Ultimately the MVP award will go to either Nash or Dirk Nowitzki, who are deserving this season, but neither are as good as Kobe. Dallas and Phoenix are strong enough to make the playoffs without their stars. The Lakers, however, are a lottery team without Kobe.
Now that's a valuable player.
Jemele Hill, a Page 2 columnist and writer for ESPN The Magazine, can be reached at jemeleespn@gmail.com.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070326&sportCat=nba
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Kobe's a great basketball player.
But he is no Michael Jordan.
The problem for Kobe's legacy is that he's playing in an era marked by really shitty basketball.
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Like Hill said, Kobe can everything Jordan did, and more.
And the Jordan era was hardly marked by great basketball.
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Like Hill said, Kobe can everything Jordan did, and more.
And the Jordan era was hardly marked by great basketball.
That's true to some extent. Jordan didn't win a title until Detroit was injury riddled and the Celtics & Lakers were over the hill. Don't get me started on the Bulls second 3peat as the league was probably worse than it is now. Comparing Kobe to Jordan though is a major, major stretch. He is closer to being this era's Bernard King or Dominque Wilkins than he is to being Jordan, Bird or Magic.
SERGIO!!!!
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Kobe's a great basketball player.
But he is no Michael Jordan.
The problem for Kobe's legacy is that he's playing in an era marked by really shitty basketball.
Exactly, Kobe era is nothing shitty basketball, that only happens during the 4th quarter. If you take Kobe's 2007 Lakers versus 1997 Bulls, Or even Philly for that matter, Kobe would be schooled. At 29 years old.
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Exactly, Kobe era is nothing shitty basketball, that only happens during the 4th quarter. If you take Kobe's 2007 Lakers versus 1997 Bulls, Or even Philly for that matter, Kobe would be schooled. At 29 years old.
And yet Bum's still smitten!! :-*
Haven't seen anything that suggests that "the kobester" is willing to play team Bball when given the choice.
90s were also diluted.
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Exactly, Kobe era is nothing shitty basketball, that only happens during the 4th quarter. If you take Kobe's 2007 Lakers versus 1997 Bulls, Or even Philly for that matter, Kobe would be schooled. At 29 years old.
I wouldn't compare this pretty average Lakers team with a Chicago team that had two HOF players. When Kobe played with a HOF player, he won three rings.
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The Bulls had Pippen and Jordan, and a cast of supporting players. They never had a strong center, Cartright was nothing more than a human wall that opened lanes, and busted eye orbits (Hakeem's).
Every team that Shaq has been on the Point guard gets an added boost, but they were nothing special (a la Penny Hardaway). And It showed with he Lakers as well, when Kobe doesn't have Shaq, he folds, Kobe had to learn how to deal without Shaq.
I agree that Kobe is a beast, but if you put Kobe on a mid 90's Miami, Chicago, Philly, or New York team, he would be just another player.
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Exactly, Kobe era is nothing shitty basketball, that only happens during the 4th quarter. If you take Kobe's 2007 Lakers versus 1997 Bulls, Or even Philly for that matter, Kobe would be schooled. At 29 years old.
I see it pretty much the same way.
Beach will question whether Kobe is to blame for his team's lack of heart, but as team captain, if he cannot inspire his men, then he has to absorb some of the blame for this team's failures on defense.
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I see it pretty much the same way.
Beach will question whether Kobe is to blame for his team's lack of heart, but as team captain, if he cannot inspire his men, then he has to absorb some of the blame for this team's failures on defense.
I will question his team's lack of talent. Give Kobe another all star and he wins a ring, or three. Jordan never won squat without Pippen. Kobe needs to be surrounded with better talent. He is doing everything, plus some, to help his team win. He's not Superman. But he's close . . . .
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I will question his team's lack of talent. Give Kobe another all star and he wins a ring, or three. Jordan never won squat without Pippen. Kobe needs to be surrounded with better talent. He is doing everything, plus some, to help his team win. He's not Superman. But he's close . . . .
Too black & white, someone who selectively chooses facts. Turds like Kobe are at best part of but not the centerpiece to winning ball, as shown when they won. A repugnant personality and a preferred style of hogging the ball aren't part of a winning formula.
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Too black & white, someone who selectively chooses facts. Turds like Kobe are at best part of but not a centerpiece to winning ball, as shown when they won.
Says the man who doesn't watch him play. Try actually watching the game so you can have a more informed opinion.
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Says the man who doesn't watch him play. Try actually watching the game so you can have a more informed opinion.
Wrong, i have and choose not to watch an unlikable character and unlikable coach.
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Wrong, i have and choose not to watch an unlikable character and unlikable coach.
Who cares why you don't watch. The fact is you don't watch the game so you are really talking out of your rear end.
And Phil is an unlikable coach? The man with NINE rings? Dude you must be a cricket fan or something . . . .
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And Phil is an unlikable coach? The man with NINE rings?
With all due respect, I feel that you could've won at least 5-6 rings as head coach of the teams he's had...even if you were a blind man. ;D
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With all due respect, I feel that you could've won at least 5-6 rings as head coach of the teams he's had...even if you were a blind man. ;D
O Rly? Actually, I kinda thought the same thing before he came to L.A. But how do you explain the fact that he took the same team that didn't win squat the year before he arrived and proceeding to win three straight rings (in L.A.)?
After watching him these past 6 years or so, I have a great deal of respect for him. I think he's a great coach.
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Yeah, Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan.
Bwahahhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaa
Hold on a second, the laughter has almost died down.
Nope, here it comes again.
Bwaaaahaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaa
The idiot writer that wrote that article is looking for some attention, I doubt even she believes that nonsense.
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Who cares why you don't watch. The fact is you don't watch the game so you are really talking out of your rear end.
And Phil is an unlikable coach? The man with NINE rings? Dude you must be a cricket fan or something . . . .
I have watched, and said so. Are you cognitively challenged?
You're apparently the only one who also doesn't see Phil for what he is.
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The idiot writer that wrote that article is looking for some attention, I doubt even she believes that nonsense.
It worked, for those on perennial kobe-watch who post new Kobe threads daily. :o
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I have watched, and said so. Are you cognitively challenged?
You're apparently the only one who also doesn't see Phil for what he is.
Am I "cognitively challenged"? Depends on who you talk to. :)
I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. You obviously don't watch the game.
And I'm the only person who "doesn't see Phil for what he is"? Whatever that means. I see him as a HOF coach and arguably the best coach in NBA history.
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Am I "cognitively challenged"? Depends on who you talk to. :)
I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. You obviously don't watch the game.
And I'm the only person who "doesn't see Phil for what he is"? Whatever that means. I see him as a HOF coach and arguably the best coach in NBA history.
;)
(http://www.nba.com/media/red_400_061028.jpg)
Had to do it.....
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He's no Jordan. If Jordan was playing against Golden state and Toronto he'd score 50 a night too. The late 80's Jordan was a better scorer than Kobe, as he had to do it against the Celtics, Pistons, Knicks and other teams not named the Warriors or the Sonics.
Jordan = more rings, better marketed to every demographic and known all over the world as a great athlete. Kobe might not even be in top 5 to ever play, so how can he be better than numero uno MJ?
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And I'm the only person who "doesn't see Phil for what he is"? Whatever that means. I see him as a HOF coach and arguably the best coach in NBA history.
Calling Phil Jackson the greatest coach in NBA history is like calling a homeless person who inherits millions from their dead aunt " The greatest financial mind of all time ".
SERGIO!!!!
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He's no Jordan. If Jordan was playing against Golden state and Toronto he'd score 50 a night too. The late 80's Jordan was a better scorer than Kobe, as he had to do it against the Celtics, Pistons, Knicks and other teams not named the Warriors or the Sonics.
Jordan = more rings, better marketed to every demographic and known all over the world as a great athlete. Kobe might not even be in top 5 to ever play, so how can he be better than numero uno MJ?
Not to mention Wilt, most dominant EVA. Imagine his numbers today.
No wonder basketball's boring with this dilution, as Wilt said.
As far as other greats, what i remember with the dream team in '92 was that it was Magic, not Jordan, that made that team happen. Tells you something. ;D Kobe's not even the best-ever Laker. :-\
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;)
(http://www.nba.com/media/red_400_061028.jpg)
Had to do it.....
LOL. ;D I knew you would at least mention Red. Hey how many teams were in the league when he won all those titles? :D
Without having given this much thought, I'd rank them:
1. Phil
2. Riley
Honorable mention: Red, and everyone else.
Okay . . . I'm an admitted Laker homer, but I like those two (Phil and Pat).
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There goes any remaining credibility with those selections. :-[
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Not to mention Wilt, most dominant EVA. Imagine his numbers today.
No wonder basketball's boring with this dilution, as Wilt said.
As far as other greats, what i remember with the dream team in '92 was that it was Magic, not Jordan, that made that team happen. Tells you something. ;D Kobe's not even the best-ever Laker. :-\
Kobe's not even in the top 5 Lakers ever. Magic, Kareem, Wilt, West and Baylor were all better than Kobe. Kobe still has time to turn it around but I can't see him being better than Baylor by the time his career finishes.
LOL. ;D I knew you would at least mention Red. Hey how many teams were in the league when he won all those titles? :D
Without having given this much thought, I'd rank them:
1. Phil
2. Riley
Honorable mention: Red, and everyone else.
Okay . . . I'm an admitted Laker homer, but I like those two (Phil and Pat).
Riley is twice the coach Jackson is cause he actually went to teams (New York, Miami) in the 90's and turned them from OK teams into great teams. Red had some great playing rosters to work with too but a lot of his players weren't established superstars when he got them, but he did turn them into superstars. Phil hasn't done that with anyone except maybe Pippen.
SERGIO!!!!
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I will question his team's lack of talent. Give Kobe another all star and he wins a ring, or three.
i don't think another all star wants to play with Kobe. the Lakers roster is a joke and part of the blame has to go to Kobe and his ego
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i don't think another all star wants to play with Kobe. the Lakers roster is a joke and part of the blame has to go to Kobe and his ego
How so? They don't have cap room. Kidd wanted to play for L.A. Ron Artest wanted to play with Kobe. Any all star who wants a ring will play with Kobe.
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Kobe's not even in the top 5 Lakers ever. Magic, Kareem, Wilt, West and Baylor were all better than Kobe. Kobe still has time to turn it around but I can't see him being better than Baylor by the time his career finishes.
Riley is twice the coach Jackson is cause he actually went to teams (New York, Miami) in the 90's and turned them from OK teams into great teams. Red had some great playing rosters to work with too but a lot of his players weren't established superstars when he got them, but he did turn them into superstars. Phil hasn't done that with anyone except maybe Pippen.
SERGIO!!!!
In terms of overall talent, Kobe is among the best to ever play the game. But you have to compare apples with apples. He's not a center, so you cannot really compare him to Wilt. He's not a point guard, even though he leads his team in assists pretty much every year, so you cannot really compare him to Magic. I think Jordan is a better comparison. Kobe does everything Jordan did and more (better with the ball in his hands and much better range).
I don't fault Phil for coaching great players. The team with the best players doesn't always win. That's why the Lakers didn't win a title the year before Phil came on board. He took the same cast of characters and won a title in his first year in L.A.
I love Riley, but he is an opportunist too. He stepped down in Miami when they weren't a contender, fired Van Gundy when Miami caught fire, had a convenient surgery when Shaq went down this year, then suddenly recovered when Shaq got healthy. I didn't really pay attention to this (and didn't believe it) till a friend of mine pointed this out to me.
That said, Pat won a title with arguably the worst team in NBA history to ever win a title last year.
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Too black & white, someone who selectively chooses facts. Turds like Kobe are at best part of but not the centerpiece to winning ball, as shown when they won. A repugnant personality and a preferred style of hogging the ball aren't part of a winning formula.
In the past five games, Kobe Bryant has averaged 54 points per game. Think about that for a moment. Fifty four! Most importantly, the Los Angeles Lakers won all five, reversing a seven-game losing streak that had threatened to ruin their season.
In effect, Bryant placed the entire team on his shoulders and willed it back into a positive state. The Lakers are now confident again, they have Luke Walton and Lamar Odom back from injuries and they're no longer looking like road kill for the West's top seeds come playoff time. And they owe it all to Kobe.
His offensive game is so good, so fundamentally sound in every aspect, that it may be time to debate whether or not he's the most complete offensive player in the history of the NBA. I'm not talking about the best player – there are plenty of players who rank well ahead of Bryant in that category. I'm simply wondering if there has ever been a player with a more complete skill set with footwork, ball handling, perimeter shooting and leaping ability.
I'll look forward to your emails on that one.
Pumpster, you love to cut and paste articles. Here is one for you. I guess you know more about basketball than Steve Kerr.
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I agree that Kobe is a beast, but if you put Kobe on a mid 90's Miami, Chicago, Philly, or New York team, he would be just another player.
That is about the dumbest statement I ever heard. The guy had four straight games of over 50 points. Thats unheard of. He once had a streak of thirteen over 40. Thats amazing. Last year he went for 81. A while back he went for over 60. His peers say he is far and away the best player in the league.
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There goes any remaining credibility with those selections. :-[
Pumpster, lets be honest. Saying Kobe isn't the best is on par with you saying Tiger Woods is overated and erratic. You just have to be the opposite of common logic. You get off on it.
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There goes any remaining credibility with those selections. :-[
Pumpster, how do you account for so many of the NBA's best players saying Kobe is the best player in the league by far?
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scoring wise, Kobe is perhaps the best all-time, fuck wilt chamberlain, he played with skinny short white guys, now they scout defenses, videos on how to trap a player, the players are quicker now, stronger and kobe is still superior then the whole league in scoring, the only thing is in the jordan-era it was alot more physical, and hand checking was allowed...
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How so? They don't have cap room. Kidd wanted to play for L.A. Ron Artest wanted to play with Kobe. Any all star who wants a ring will play with Kobe.
Bum in total denial.
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Pumpster, lets be honest. Saying Kobe isn't the best is on par with you saying Tiger Woods is overated and erratic. You just have to be the opposite of common logic. You get off on it.
Except that Tiger's play over the last year or so since his dad died proves that i was right, in relation to his former play and overall potential, you idiot. I was right.
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Pumpster, how do you account for so many of the NBA's best players saying Kobe is the best player in the league by far?
I never said he wasn't the best now; he's just not that impressive in historical terms or in terms of winning basketball. This seems to be hard to grasp for our easily-impressed-by-stats dumbass bmacsys.
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scoring wise, Kobe is perhaps the best all-time, fuck wilt chamberlain, he played with skinny short white guys, now they scout defenses, videos on how to trap a player, the players are quicker now, stronger and kobe is still superior then the whole league in scoring, the only thing is in the jordan-era it was alot more physical, and hand checking was allowed...
Chamberlain's numbers were better, including 7 straight games of 50 or more that the kobester says he can't match.
As far as the talent then, there wasn't any dilution in the league either, so it's very easy to say that the kobester actually has it easier playing some of the current teams.
There's no basis for saying that he's a better scorer than Jordan either.
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There's no basis for saying that he's a better scorer than Jordan either.
I do think he scores points easier then mike did...to me mike's the best ever but scoring wise i feel kobe is a little better, remember both did have free reign on how many times they shot the ball
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Except that Tiger's play over the last year or so since his dad died proves that i was right, in relation to his former play and overall potential, you idiot. I was right.
Yup. He had only 8 Majors and a Grand Slam to his credit BEFORE his dad died! ::)
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Chamberlain's numbers were better, including 7 straight games of 50 or more that the kobester says he can't match.
Yup, and Wilt only got those numbers BEFORE the lane was widened to 12 feet and playing against 6'6" white guys save Bill Russell. Pumpster, HAVE YOU EVER WATCHED AN NBA GAME? Come clean! You don't know shit about basketball man.
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Yup, and Wilt only got those numbers BEFORE the lane was widened to 12 feet and playing against 6'6" white guys save Bill Russell. Pumpster, HAVE YOU EVER WATCHED AN NBA GAME? Come clean! You don't know shit about basketball man.
Funny because you're clueless in every post. Total inability to see beyond general understandings.
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Yup. He had only 8 Majors and a Grand Slam to his credit BEFORE his dad died! ::)
The general uneducated fan like this obsesses only on numbers. I was absolutely right about his inconstency.
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The general uneducated fan like this obsesses only on numbers. I was absolutely right about his inconstency.
Its about the numbers goofball. Like how many titles the man has won. DUH. ::)
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Funny because you're clueless in every post. Total inability to see beyond general understandings.
DUH, try and refute my post. You can't. Then again you don't even know what the lane is or a 3 second violation is. Poor Pumpster. The laughingstock of the sports board.
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DUH, try and refute my post. You can't. Then again you don't even know what the lane is or a 3 second violation is. Poor Pumpster. The laughingstock of the sports board.
This from someone so out of it that he think's trailing me around for more than a year makign shit up's an accomplishment.
Let your son know about this i'm sure he'll be damn proud of "dad" and his wisdom. hahaahahahh
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That is about the dumbest statement I ever heard. The guy had four straight games of over 50 points. Thats unheard of. He once had a streak of thirteen over 40. Thats amazing. Last year he went for 81. A while back he went for over 60. His peers say he is far and away the best player in the league.
Nope, it is no secret that the talent in the NBA has waned. Most of these guys just want to be paid, there is no love or passion for the game, except maybe those players from overseas. Plus it is again, no secret that they only play hard during the 4th quarter. Which makes it alot easier to hit 50+ points a game when nobody really puts any effort to guard you until the 4th
Do you agree or disagree that 1997 Bulls team is better than a 2007 Lakers team? Because the genral consensus is that it is.
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This from someone so out of it that he think's trailing me around for more than a year makign shit up's an accomplishment.
Let your son know about this i'm sure he'll be damn proud of "dad" and his wisdom. hahaahahahh
Poopster, everybody who has been here a while know I am not making it up. I just enjoy making you look like an idiot. Though you really don't need any help. ::)
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Nope, it is no secret that the talent in the NBA has waned. Most of these guys just want to be paid, there is no love or passion for the game, except maybe those players from overseas. Plus it is again, no secret that they only play hard during the 4th quarter. Which makes it alot easier to hit 50+ points a game when nobody really puts any effort to guard you until the 4th
Do you agree or disagree that 1997 Bulls team is better than a 2007 Lakers team? Because the genral consensus is that it is.
The 1997 Bulls team won what 72 games? The 2007 Lakers are basically a one man show.
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Let your son know about this i'm sure he'll be damn proud of "dad" and his wisdom. hahaahahahh
You don't have any kids correct?