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Title: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on December 27, 2007, 12:36:00 PM


In my reading of the bible I have concluded that once you have accepted Christ as Savior, you can never lose your salvation.

I've met some people that consider themselves Christians that do believe you can lose your salvation. 

What do the Christians here believe? 

Input from non-Christians is welcome also.



Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: ATHEIST on December 27, 2007, 02:20:36 PM

 where in the Book did you get this?
 
 i would think that if you were once a believer and then denounced Christ then that would cancel your salvation, the bottom line being that you dont believe not that you once believed.
 


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Straw Man on December 27, 2007, 02:39:31 PM

In my reading of the bible I have concluded that once you have accepted Christ as Savior, you can never lose your salvation.

I've met some people that consider themselves Christians that do believe you can lose your salvation. 

What do the Christians here believe? 

Input from non-Christians is welcome also.

Stella,

Some of the most dishonest  people I've ever met in the business world were very vocal about being born again Christians.  I was always baffled as to how they could be so scummy (I'm talking about major fraud, outright theft, etc.) while at the same time reminding everyone how Christian they were.   My conclusion was that once they got it in their head that they were "saved" they felt that they could do whatever they wanted because they believed that all there "sins" would be forgiven and isn't that basically the "Good News" of christianity.

It seems the only "sin" that God won't forgive is not worshiping God. 


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: OzmO on December 27, 2007, 02:42:13 PM


Some of the most dishonest  people I've ever met in the business world were very vocal about being born again Christians. 

This is commonly accepted in the business I'm in.  The minute some hears the thumping, it's taken a warning.

Too bad isn't it?


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Dos Equis on December 27, 2007, 02:49:36 PM
I have met a lot of very dishonest people in business.  I didn't consider any of them "true believers."  I don't believe true Christians act this way.  A person isn't a Christian because they profess to be.  It's their actions that tell you where their heart is.   

Regarding the "once saved, always saved question," Stella I don't really believe that.  I think salvation is a gift, but that we all have the ability to choose whether or not to accept it.  I think people have the ability to choose to go down the wrong path and never come back.  I do agree that this is very hard to do once you have truly accepted Christ as your Savior, but I do believe it's possible. 


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on December 27, 2007, 02:49:49 PM
where in the Book did you get this?
 
 i would think that if you were once a believer and then denounced Christ then that would cancel your salvation, the bottom line being that you dont believe not that you once believed.
 
Denouncing Christ seems pretty strong but the way I see it, even if the person denounces Christ, if they ever truly believed, they are still saved.



John 10:28-29
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand.  My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand.

John 5:24
I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.

Romans 8:38
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers,  nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers,  nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 3:5-7
he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior.  And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.”

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.




Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Straw Man on December 27, 2007, 02:55:01 PM
This is commonly accepted in the business I'm in.  The minute some hears the thumping, it's taken a warning.

Too bad isn't it?

I've learned to take that as an early warning sign too


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on December 27, 2007, 02:57:29 PM
Stella,

Some of the most dishonest  people I've ever met in the business world were very vocal about being born again Christians.  I was always baffled as to how they could be so scummy (I'm talking about major fraud, outright theft, etc.) while at the same time reminding everyone how Christian they were.   

I have met a lot of very dishonest people in business.  I didn't consider any of them "true believers."  I don't believe true Christians act this way.  A person isn't a Christian because they profess to be.  It's their actions that tell you where their heart is.   



I agree w/both of you.  One person I know is extremely vocal about "being a Christian" and also has committed major fraud, forgery, perjury and outright theft (maybe we know the same guy Straw Man) but I also believe he is a Psychopath and is not really a Christian. 



This is commonly accepted in the business I'm in.  The minute some hears the thumping, it's taken a warning.

Too bad isn't it?
Man, this is exactly what we think now.  Coming from Christians who take it as a warning, that's pretty sad!


 
Regarding the "once saved, always saved question," Stella I don't really believe that.  I think salvation is a gift, but that we all have the ability to choose whether or not to accept it.  I think people have the ability to choose to go down the wrong path and never come back.  I do agree that this is very hard to do once you have truly accepted Christ as your Savior, but I do believe it's possible. 

That's interesting Beach.  Thanks for your answer!


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: OzmO on December 27, 2007, 03:04:56 PM
I have met a lot of very dishonest people in business.  I didn't consider any of them "true believers."  I don't believe true Christians act this way.  A person isn't a Christian because they profess to be.  It's their actions that tell you where their heart is.   



I agree with you there, but it just seems like the more they are vocal about it the more they are crooked on the inside.

There was a time about 20 years ago, when i was in direct sales, that most  pastors we ran credit on had bad credit.   That may seem like an exaggeration, but really, i remember 1 or 2 that had good credit out of at least 50.  It got to a point that we didn't want to sell to Pastors because it was a waste of time.


Oh man, this is exactly what we think now!!  Coming from Christians who take it as a warning, that's pretty sad!




Actions speak louder than words.

That's the only way to know i think.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Dos Equis on December 27, 2007, 03:24:07 PM
I agree with you there, but it just seems like the more they are vocal about it the more they are crooked on the inside.

There was a time about 20 years ago, when i was in direct sales, that most  pastors we ran credit on had bad credit.   That may seem like an exaggeration, but really, i remember 1 or 2 that had good credit out of at least 50.  It got to a point that we didn't want to sell to Pastors because it was a waste of time.



Actions speak louder than words.

That's the only way to know i think.

I don't want to use the broad brush, but I've been in church my entire life and I have seen, on numerous occasions, extremely vocal and dogmatic people fall away and leave the church.  I'm a little cynical of those who wear their religion on their sleeves accompanied by a judgmental attitude.     


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: ATHEIST on December 27, 2007, 05:24:38 PM
I agree w/both of you.  One person I know is extremely vocal about "being a Christian" and also has committed major fraud, forgery, perjury and outright theft (maybe we know the same guy Straw Man!) but I also believe he is a Psychopath and is not really a Christian. 

 even though he may not be a good person he can still be a Christian, phychopath or not. he could have commited every sin in the book, if he believes he will have eternal salvation..thats one of the problems i have with Christianity.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Deicide on December 27, 2007, 05:53:58 PM

In my reading of the bible I have concluded that once you have accepted Christ as Savior, you can never lose your salvation.

I've met some people that consider themselves Christians that do believe you can lose your salvation. 

What do the Christians here believe? 

Input from non-Christians is welcome also.



When you die, you cease to exist and your body rots. We might as well as talk about Dungeons and Dragons if you want to bring this silly stuff up.  ::) ::) ::)


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: _Morrison_ on December 27, 2007, 06:07:03 PM


Some of the most dishonest  people I've ever met in the business world were very vocal about being born again Christians.

Unfortunately that is the case much of the time, but I think that a person's capacity to be dishonest comes from who they are individually.  Who knows?  Maybe those people were only vocal about being born-again because they didn't want to appear dishonest.  I've met people like that before.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Dos Equis on December 27, 2007, 10:21:08 PM
even though he may not be a good person he can still be a Christian, phychopath or not. he could have commited every sin in the book, if he believes he will have eternal salvation..thats one of the problems i have with Christianity.

That's a good point.  I don't think a person who commits bad acts is necessarily--for lack of a better word--lost.  Everyone makes mistakes.  It's those who willfully, continually engage in unethical, illegal, etc. behavior who are clearly not Christians.   


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: blinky on December 27, 2007, 10:54:56 PM
interesting Stella.


there are alot of people who claim to be born again. there are people who accept jesus as their saviour but they just go through the motions and really have no plan on following that path. and their are those who truly want jesus in their lives.

Stella, do you think all these people are forever saved?
what about those who later sin and do not ask forgiveness?

i dont know enough about the bible to strongly say either way but the passages you quoted are interesting. but i think if you accept jesus as your saviour and later sin you will still be saved as long as you ask forgiveness for those sins.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on December 28, 2007, 06:29:38 AM
even though he may not be a good person he can still be a Christian, phychopath or not. he could have commited every sin in the book, if he believes he will have eternal salvation..

I agree with you.

thats one of the problems i have with Christianity.

ATHEIST, why is it a problem?  Because of the way we seem to "abuse" it?


When you die, you cease to exist and your body rots. We might as well as talk about Dungeons and Dragons if you want to bring this silly stuff up.  ::) ::) ::)

We tend to bring stuff like this up here because it is the "Religion Board." :)

 


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on December 28, 2007, 06:38:55 AM
interesting Stella.


there are alot of people who claim to be born again. there are people who accept jesus as their saviour but they just go through the motions and really have no plan on following that path. and their are those who truly want jesus in their lives.

Stella, do you think all these people are forever saved?
what about those who later sin and do not ask forgiveness?

i dont know enough about the bible to strongly say either way but the passages you quoted are interesting. but i think if you accept jesus as your saviour and later sin you will still be saved as long as you ask forgiveness for those sins.

I believe that someone who truly at some point in their life accepts Christ as savior is yes, forever saved. 

I believe they are saved even if they don't ask for forgiveness for sins they commit after they accept Christ.  I'm sure I've committed hundreds and probably thousands of sins since accepting Christ as Savior that I haven't asked forgiveness for.  Who could keep up w/all of them? :-[ 

God only but thankfully:

EPH 2:8,9
[We] are saved by grace through faith, and not of works, so that no one can boast.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: ATHEIST on December 28, 2007, 10:55:19 AM
That's a good point.  I don't think a person who commits bad acts is necessarily--for lack of a better word--lost.  Everyone makes mistakes.  It's those who willfully, continually engage in unethical, illegal, etc. behavior who are clearly not Christians.   

 you cant say they arent Christians, a sin is a sin according to God. therefore there is no difference if you use His name in vain or kill. the third person on the cross next to Jesus was a lifetime criminal, he spent his life indulging in sins while others where walking in the way of the Lord, five minutes before he past he accepted Christ and he ends up in the same place.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: ATHEIST on December 28, 2007, 11:14:36 AM
I agree with you.

ATHEIST, why is it a problem?  Because of the way we seem to "abuse" it?
 

in a sense yes, I see it as an easy way out with no responsibility, very convenient.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Dos Equis on December 28, 2007, 01:56:39 PM
you cant say they arent Christians, a sin is a sin according to God. therefore there is no difference if you use His name in vain or kill. the third person on the cross next to Jesus was a lifetime criminal, he spent his life indulging in sins while others where walking in the way of the Lord, five minutes before he past he accepted Christ and he ends up in the same place.

True, I cannot say for certain whether anyone is a Christian.  Only God knows a person's heart.  All I have is an opinion, which may or may not be right.   

Regarding the thief on the cross, he didn't accept Jesus until he was hanging on the cross, so it's probably safe to conclude he was not a "Christian" until that point. 

I agree a sin is a sin, but I haven't bought into the view that God views all sins equally.  Some are just worse than others IMO.  Some have far greater implications and cause far greater damage.  That's not exactly how it's taught in church, and there are many in my church who would flog me for saying this, but that's what I believe.   


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: ATHEIST on December 28, 2007, 02:04:15 PM
but God does view all sins equally, doesnt it say that in the Bible? the Bible should not be open to interpretation, if peoples salivations are at stake. thats another problem i have is that the Bible can be very vague and susceptible. if it were the Lords word and so greatly important no stone would be left unturned in solidifying that His word be spread w/out any questions


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Dos Equis on December 28, 2007, 02:17:02 PM
but God does view all sins equally, doesnt it say that in the Bible? the Bible should not be open to interpretation, if peoples salivations are at stake. thats another problem i have is that the Bible can be very vague and susceptible. if it were the Lords word and so greatly important no stone would be left unturned in solidifying that His word be spread w/out any questions

The Bible does say if you offend in one point, you offend all.  But if you look at how various sins were punished, it tends to show that not all sins are equal.  It's similar to how our laws are set up.  There are ordinance violations, misdemeanors, and felonies.  Violation of any of them is a violation of "the law," but there are different levels of punishment and different implications.  I view sin the same way. 


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: columbusdude82 on December 29, 2007, 04:32:07 PM
Stella, I guess you are getting at the whole salvation through faith alone vs salvation through faith and works debate. Ah, brings back memories of Catholic school...

As you know, various Christian denominations have found Biblical statements (particularly in the Pauline Epistles) in favor of both.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Deicide on December 29, 2007, 05:54:19 PM
Sins...speaking of sins...  ;D

                                                 (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/Jebus.jpg)


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: columbusdude82 on December 29, 2007, 05:56:54 PM
Sheeesh... Perhaps the Lord was arrested, tried, and executed on steroids charges? ???

At least he is keeping the gut in check. My guess is he isn't using slin...


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Purge_WTF on December 30, 2007, 09:19:28 AM
  I wonder about this myself. On one hand, it would stand to reason that salvation is conditional, because it would be rather inconceivable for someone who was saved to get into heaven if he murdered someone afterward. On the other hand, if salvation is conditional, then what are the conditions? Are you "allowed" a certain number of sins after being saved before you lose your ticket to heaven?


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on December 30, 2007, 11:30:35 AM
 On the other hand, if salvation is conditional, then what are the conditions? Are you "allowed" a certain number of sins after being saved before you lose your ticket to heaven?
Interesting question.  Then if you did "lose your ticket" could you ever be saved again?  And how? 



Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Deedee on December 30, 2007, 07:28:22 PM
From what I understand, there is no conditional for salvation, that the only unforgiveable sin is denying the holy spirit. (To deny the ultimate good, is to embrace the ultimate evil).  Anyone who has accepted Jesus will always be saved, no matter what the transgression. The reward for accepting the savior is resurrection/everlasting life.  The punishment for being "unsaved" is simply death... dead like Magritte. The soul will never awaken again.

The concept of hell as a pit of fire with the hapless sinner burning eternally is an embellishment on the original writings, at least, according to an interesting article I read awhile ago. It said something about the original hell, as depicted in scripture, being an actual "place" where thieves, murderers, etc.. were dumped after they had been executed. There, they baked (burned) in the fierce sun, and people could watch as the maggots and vermin devoured their corpses. The admonishment in scriptures was not to end up like them. It was Dante, et al who came up with demons and eternal burning torture metaphors.  But these images probably worked better to keep the unwashed masses in line, rather than the more esoteric concept.

I don't remember much of what I read, but I think the Jewish Kabbalah makes mention of some kind of heaven that may include reincarnation, but there is no hell and the onus is on living a good life and performing mitzvahs. It seems like a similar scenario to what was written in that article.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: mightymouse72 on December 31, 2007, 08:32:41 AM
even though he may not be a good person he can still be a Christian, phychopath or not. he could have commited every sin in the book, if he believes he will have eternal salvation..thats one of the problems i have with Christianity.

that is what's sad. 
non-believers think that all christians have that view- that we can do what we want and no matter what we go to heaven.
christian haters are ready to pounce on anyone that says they are Godly person and the moment they're caught doing something that goes against the Bible the haters scream "hypocrite"!!!!  and they view all Christians this way. 

true believers in Jesus Christ struggle everyday.  We try not to do the things that are not of God.  And when we do, we DON'T enjoy it, as I've read some implications here.  We commit sins everyday.  We do wrong too. 



Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on July 16, 2011, 05:55:25 AM
from gotquestions.org

Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

Answer: Before this question is answered, the term “Christian” must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what “makes” a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation? Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:

A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature as a result of being “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.

A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18-19). The word “redeemed” refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of Christ.

A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To “justify” means to “declare righteous.” All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is a promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by taking away eternal life?

A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1, justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies. Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared. Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His mind—two things that Scripture tells us God never does.

The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these two objections is the phrase “who are Christians.” The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.

No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude 24-25, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

Recommended Resource: Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: probound2 on July 16, 2011, 01:50:24 PM
No such thing as "Once saved, always saved". A person can loose their relationship with God. The bible makes this clear.  :)


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on July 18, 2011, 10:43:19 AM
No such thing as "Once saved, always saved". A person can loose their relationship with God. The bible makes this clear.  :)

Will you post some scriptures you are referencing please probound?


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: probound2 on July 19, 2011, 05:39:38 PM

No such thing as "Once saved, always saved". A person can loose their relationship with God. The bible makes this clear.  :)



Will you post some scriptures you are referencing please probound?


Interesting story. The "son of sam" if you will remember, was one of the notorious serial killers NY ever had. Supposedly he had been "saved" just 4 years prior to those killings. When one of the members of his former church had heard of the murders this is what she told the Associated Press: "I’m just thankful he was saved." Why? She claimed: "The Bible says, once saved, always saved." - New York Post, August 25, 1977, p. 2., I believe.

So, does the bible actually say "once saved always saved"? No. However, allot of sincere people do feel like it teaches this notion.


1 Cor. 9:24-27

"(24) Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. (25) Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. (26) Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. (27) No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."


Note how Paul makes the statement "I myself will not be disqualified". Indicating, he knew that it was possible for him to loose that fight or race that he illustrated.



1 Cor. 10:1-12

"(1) For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. (2) They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. (3) They all ate the same spiritual food (4) and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. (5) Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. (6) Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. (7) Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: 'The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry'. [8] We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. (9) We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. (10) And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel. (11) These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. (12) So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!"


In the Christian race, Paul indicates the "one" who receives the prize is anyone who finishes the race. Paul urges, "Run in such a way as to get the prize." "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall"

So, it can happen to any of us whom "think" we are saved. Again, the bible doesn't teach "once saved always saved". This last one should clinch the notion of  "once saved always saved" as well.

Heb. 10:26-31

"(26) If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (27) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (28) Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (29) How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? (30) For we know him who said, 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' and again, 'The Lord will judge his people.' (31) It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."


This is the short of it, but I think you will get the gist.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on July 31, 2011, 10:39:17 AM
But your Corinthians verses are not referring to salvation.  They are referring to self-discipline, behavior and rewards. 


As for the Hebrews verses, some would say those people were actually not saved to begin with...that they knew the truth/gospel, but did not "accept" it by faith.

But let's say they were saved.  Your verse still does not indicate that it is possible to lose salvation imo.   

Please look back starting at Heb 10:11 and read through to v. 31.  If you concentrate on verses 17 and 18 it points out that there is no point/need for further sacrifice if a person is saved/utterly forgiven. 


17 Then he adds:

   “Their sins and lawless acts
   I will remember no more.”

 18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.


Now, to go to Heb 10:26, it says the same thing.  Even if he person keeps on sinning intentionally, there is no further sacrifice that can save as it has already been done.  But the subsequent verses show that there are consequences for our sin, even if we are saved.


probound, do you believe that

"we are saved by Grace through faith and not of works ....?" (Eph 2:8,9)





Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Purge_WTF on August 01, 2011, 04:07:40 AM
  One other point: the people who hold the belief that salvation can indeed be lost are never able to say where that "line in the sand" is.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: OTHstrong on August 01, 2011, 04:28:15 AM
If you are givan everlasting life it obviously isn't everlasting if it s taken from you some where down the line. eternal means there is no such thing as it being removed...like saying infinite, but we will stop it some where down the line, then it was never infinite. I apoligize if I am being ignorant but the very thought of losing your eternal salvation is calling God and the Bible a liar.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 02, 2011, 06:32:04 PM
Denouncing Christ seems pretty strong but the way I see it, even if the person denounces Christ, if they ever truly believed, they are still saved.



John 10:28-29
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand.  My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand.
but it doesn't say the person themselves can't quit. It just says no one else will snatch them away. 
John 5:24
I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.
I would argue that someone who fails to believe anymore, or does continuously bad things likely doesn't believe when he dies he'll see god. he just says the words, just in case..   
Romans 8:38
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers,  nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers,  nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
except us?
Titus 3:5-7
he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior.  And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.”
Not bad... more to your point. There are passages that indicate once you are saved, god cannot see your sin, he will only see the blood of the lamb and many folks cling to that to support once saved always saved
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.





Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on August 03, 2011, 07:25:48 AM
but it doesn't say the person themselves can't quit. It just says no one else will snatch them away.  

"No one will snatch them from my hand."  That includes everyone including the believer imo."


I would argue that someone who fails to believe anymore, or does continuously bad things likely doesn't believe when he dies he'll see god. he just says the words, just in case..    


Once you believe, you are granted the gift of forgiveness.  This would include past, present and future.  But I agree that some people do not truly believe but present themselves as believers.  

1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

except us?

we are things present, we are something in creation.





Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 03, 2011, 09:22:53 AM
but it doesn't say the person themselves can't quit. It just says no one else will snatch them away.  

"No one will snatch them from my hand."  That includes everyone including the believer imo."


I would argue that someone who fails to believe anymore, or does continuously bad things likely doesn't believe when he dies he'll see god. he just says the words, just in case..    


Once you believe, you are granted the gift of forgiveness.  This would include past, present and future.  But I agree that some people do not truly believe but present themselves as believers.  

1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

except us?

we are things present, we are something in creation.







Then you are saying someone can't choose not to be saved once saved.. where is the free will in that?


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on August 03, 2011, 09:30:06 AM
Then you are saying someone can't choose not to be saved once saved.. where is the free will in that?

They had their chance  ;D


Seriously though, if the bible is true and a believer goes to heaven/paradise/be w/Christ after death and an unbeliever goes to hell/separation from Christ, are you upset that the person (if once a true believer) no longer has the opportunity to go to hell?


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 03, 2011, 04:48:54 PM
They had their chance  ;D


Seriously though, if the bible is true and a believer goes to heaven/paradise/be w/Christ after death and an unbeliever goes to hell/separation from Christ, are you upset that the person (if once a true believer) no longer has the opportunity to go to hell?

I'm not upset at all. I think the system would be flawed if good people go to hell and a snake who once believed but no longer does and rips people off gets to go to heaven... I would think you would be upset..


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: OTHstrong on August 03, 2011, 04:59:23 PM
I'm not upset at all. I think the system would be flawed if good people go to hell and a snake who once believed but no longer does and rips people off gets to go to heaven... I would think you would be upset..
The Bible makes it clear that God knows the heart


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on August 04, 2011, 06:05:24 AM
I'm not upset at all. I think the system would be flawed if good people go to hell and a snake who once believed but no longer does and rips people off gets to go to heaven... I would think you would be upset..

I didn't mean upset...should have said, wouldn't you be glad that they don't have the opportunity to choose hell at that point.

Why would I be upset?  I would like everyone to go to heaven, although I used to agonize over this I know that God is in control.   People living in these fleshly bodies will not be the same on the other side.  And all doubt will be removed when we see what is there.   I would think when people get to "the other side" they would want to be in heaven.   Suppose it's possible they wouldn't though but doesn't seem probable to me.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 04, 2011, 07:15:45 AM
I didn't mean upset...should have said, wouldn't you be glad that they don't have the opportunity to choose hell at that point.

Why would I be upset?  I would like everyone to go to heaven, although I used to agonize over this I know that God is in control.   People living in these fleshly bodies will not be the same on the other side.  And all doubt will be removed when we see what is there.   I would think when people get to "the other side" they would want to be in heaven.   Suppose it's possible they wouldn't though but doesn't seem probable to me.

But it really isn't about who wants to be in heaven. It's really about who believes their is a heaven. If after I die, I am shown there is a heaven and hell, I'd be a fool to choose hell. The thing is, I don't believe at this moment they are viable options.


Personally, I'd prefer if a heaven like and hell like place existed, that good decent people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. Seems like a logical thing. But for good people to go to heaven for lack of belief in something that is so debatable and has very little to support is outside of faith, seems like a flawed system. An unfair system. Not one any entity with a speck of decency would have created. imho


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Deicide on August 05, 2011, 06:46:54 AM
But it really isn't about who wants to be in heaven. It's really about who believes their is a heaven. If after I die, I am shown there is a heaven and hell, I'd be a fool to choose hell. The thing is, I don't believe at this moment they are viable options.


Personally, I'd prefer if a heaven like and hell like place existed, that good decent people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. Seems like a logical thing. But for good people to go to heaven for lack of belief in something that is so debatable and has very little to support is outside of faith, seems like a flawed system. An unfair system. Not one any entity with a speck of decency would have created. imho

You don't really believe in this stuff, do you? ???


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 05, 2011, 10:05:18 AM
You don't really believe in this stuff, do you? ???

Not personally, but IF it did exist.. the system to get there is flawed.

A baby born to muslims in Egypt doesn't have the same playing field as a baby born to Christians in Kansas.

Good people who just fail to believe in the bible or Jesus go to hell while questionable people who go to church and say they believe do. (I know this is an oversimplification) but its all a game of chance. Some people believe in UFO's, or Bigfoot, or ghosts or psychics or Jesus being the son of god and that's cool but there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in UFO's or Bigfoot.

 


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: loco on August 05, 2011, 10:17:13 AM
Not personally, but IF it did exist.. the system to get there is flawed.

A baby born to muslims in Egypt doesn't have the same playing field as a baby born to Christians in Kansas.

Good people who just fail to believe in the bible or Jesus go to hell while questionable people who go to church and say they believe do. (I know this is an oversimplification) but its all a game of chance. Some people believe in UFO's, or Bigfoot, or ghosts or psychics or Jesus being the son of god and that's cool but there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in UFO's or Bigfoot.

 

People who "say they believe" in Jesus go to Heaven?  That is not Christianity.  That is your own created system.  You should start a new religion!    ;D

Christians have to really believe by faith in Jesus Christ, and though it won't make them perfect, it should show in their life.

"there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in UFO's or Bigfoot." 

And there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in Jesus either.  Eternal punishment is for unforgiven sinners.   And Jesus, by his own words, is the only way to forgiveness of sins, the only way out of eternal punishment.    :)


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Deicide on August 05, 2011, 10:32:22 AM
Not personally, but IF it did exist.. the system to get there is flawed.

A baby born to muslims in Egypt doesn't have the same playing field as a baby born to Christians in Kansas.

Good people who just fail to believe in the bible or Jesus go to hell while questionable people who go to church and say they believe do. (I know this is an oversimplification) but its all a game of chance. Some people believe in UFO's, or Bigfoot, or ghosts or psychics or Jesus being the son of god and that's cool but there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in UFO's or Bigfoot.

 

Of course, just one example of the tortuously and unnecessarily complex 'theology' of Christianity; what of the Amerindians who lived for millenia without Jesus? Then, there is another thread that discusses natural disasters and God's relationship to them. All unnecessarily complex. They first presuppose the existence of some munificient creator deity and then try to figure out how he or it fits in with all the harm in the world, when it would be easier to presuppose nothing and see such things for what they are.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: loco on August 05, 2011, 10:47:33 AM
Of course, just one example of the tortuously and unnecessarily complex 'theology' of Christianity; what of the Amerindians who lived for millenia without Jesus? Then, there is another thread that discusses natural disasters and God's relationship to them. All unnecessarily complex. They first presuppose the existence of some munificient creator deity and then try to figure out how he or it fits in with all the harm in the world, when it would be easier to presuppose nothing and see such things for what they are.

Just as atheists and other theists do NOT have an answer for everything, Christians do not have an answer for everything either, though some Christians won't admit to this and try to explain everything even when they don't know.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 05, 2011, 10:48:33 AM
Just as atheists and other theists do NOT have an answer for everything, Christians do not have an answer for everything either, though some Christians won't admit to this and try to explain everything even when they don't know.

and this is where they lose credibility..

"I don't know" sounds a lot better than "god works in mysterious ways and the devil has power over the earth and god won't interfere in things unless you pray for help then he might answer yes or no or wait, and ....etc etc." 


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 05, 2011, 10:51:01 AM
People who "say they believe" in Jesus go to Heaven?  That is not Christianity.  That is your own created system.  You should start a new religion!    ;D

Christians have to really believe by faith in Jesus Christ, and though it won't make them perfect, it should show in their life.

"there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in UFO's or Bigfoot." 

And there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in Jesus either.  Eternal punishment is for unforgiven sinners.   And Jesus, by his own words, is the only way to forgiveness of sins, the only way out of eternal punishment.    :)

We were discussing once saved always saved... so if that is correct, then someone who at 21 was a believer and lived a "christian" life, backslide at 35 into robbing banks to support their heroin habit... would go to heaven and the guy working the soup kitchen down the street as a volunteer, who happens to be buddhist, goes to hell according to common christian theology. I didn't make it up   


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: loco on August 05, 2011, 11:02:06 AM
We were discussing once saved always saved... so if that is correct, then someone who at 21 was a believer and lived a "christian" life, backslide at 35 into robbing banks to support their heroin habit... would go to heaven and the guy working the soup kitchen down the street as a volunteer, who happens to be buddhist, goes to hell according to common christian theology. I didn't make it up   

What you made up was the part about someone being saved by "saying" he/she believes.  Just saying it won't do it.  That person must really believe.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: loco on August 05, 2011, 11:05:12 AM
and this is where they lose credibility..

"I don't know" sounds a lot better than "god works in mysterious ways and the devil has power over the earth and god won't interfere in things unless you pray for help then he might answer yes or no or wait, and ....etc etc."  

Those answers may be appropriate in certain cases, or might really bring comfort to the person listening.  But I agree that sometimes it is better to just say "I don't know", if one really doesn't know.  This doesn't just apply to Christians.  I have spoken with certain atheists who pretend to have an answer or an explanation for everything.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Deicide on August 05, 2011, 12:51:14 PM
Those answers may be appropriate in certain cases, or might really bring comfort to the person listening.  But I agree that sometimes it is better to just say "I don't know", if one really doesn't know.  This doesn't just apply to Christians.  I have spoken with certain atheists who pretend to have an answer or an explanation for everything.

I don't know is the best answer to unanswered questions, always. Some people need an answer to everything.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: probound2 on September 12, 2011, 08:57:05 AM
But your Corinthians verses are not referring to salvation.  They are referring to self-discipline, behavior and rewards.  

Correct, however, wouldn't self-discipline be required in achieving salvation? this is what Paul was pointing out. The rewards are everlasting life. Paul was also making the point that, salvation is like running a race, you have to finish the race first, before you can win the reward of salvation.

Quote
As for the Hebrews verses, some would say those people were actually not saved to begin with...that they knew the truth/gospel, but did not "accept" it by faith.

But let's say they were saved.  Your verse still does not indicate that it is possible to lose salvation imo.  

Please look back starting at Heb 10:11 and read through to v. 31.  If you concentrate on verses 17 and 18 it points out that there is no point/need for further sacrifice if a person is saved/utterly forgiven.  


17 Then he adds:

   “Their sins and lawless acts
   I will remember no more.”

 18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.


Now, to go to Heb 10:26, it says the same thing.  Even if he person keeps on sinning intentionally, there is no further sacrifice that can save as it has already been done.  But the subsequent verses show that there are consequences for our sin, even if we are saved.

God's forgiveness is not prompted by sentimentality. As u pointed out, He does punish for sins.

Ps 99:8

"LORD our God, you answered them; you were to Israel a forgiving God, though you punished their misdeeds."

Joshua warned Israel that God would not forgive apostasy on their part. Look at:

Jos 24:19, 20

(19)" Joshua said to the people, 'You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. (20) If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.'"
 
God has a required way for seeking and receiving his forgiveness. A person must acknowledge his sin, recognize that it is an offense against God, confess it unqualifiedly, have a deep heartfelt sorrow for the wrong done, and have a determination to turn from such a course or practice. Look at:

Ps 32:5; 51:4; 1Jo 1:8, 9; 2Co 7:8-11

(5) "May they be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of the LORD driving them away; [51:(4) Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge."

(8.) "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."  

(8.) "Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— (9) yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. (10) Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. (11) See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter."

A person  must do what he can to right the wrong or damage done.  Then he must pray to God, asking for forgiveness on the basis of Christ’s ransom sacrifice.

Mt 5:23, 24; Eph 1:7

(23) "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, (24) leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift."

(7) "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."


Again, a person has to be sincerely repentant in order for them to exercise the ransom sacrifice that Jesus provided. If we are "once saved, always saved" then there would be no need in asking for forgiveness anymore, it would automatically be forgiven when you continued to sin.

Hebrews make this clear at Hebrews chapter 10:26-27. If we keep sinning after we know the truth, then God won't forgive that behavior anymore. This means tho, the person had to know the truth first, right? Also, look at what the scriptures say about shrinking back. Before one can shrink back, they had to be in God's favor first.

Hebrews 10:25-27, 36-39

(26) "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (27) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (36) You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. (37) For, 'In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.' (38) And, 'But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.' (39) But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved."

See how Hebrews 10:35-39 is indicating one can "shrink back". Back from what? Being in God's favor. No one is saved until they finish the race. Until then, we can't give up or "shrink back", by denounces our faith. Like Paul said, "the one who endures to the end, will be the one saved".

Quote
probound, do you believe that

"we are saved by Grace through faith and not of works ....?" (Eph 2:8,9)

Absolutely, however, there are stipulations that go along with that notion. Take a look at:

Hebrews 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."

Matt. 10:22; 24:12, 13; Mark 13:13; James 2:17, 26; Luke 9:23

(22) You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. [24:(12)] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, (13) but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

(13) "Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

(17) "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (26) As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."  

(23) "Then he said to them all: 'Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me'".

So, it takes more than just believing in what that Scripture quoted says. There has to be "deeds" to go along with it. Even the demons and devil believe that Christ exist. They even know a person has to except Christ as their savior thru faith too. However, this is not going to get them everlasting life. right?Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.






Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on September 12, 2011, 10:13:38 AM
probound, may I ask what is the denomination of your church?  If you'd rather PM me that is fine.

Also, may I ask what type of bible version you normally use and if it is a study bible?  For instance NIV Ryrie Study Bible or Zondervan Life App. Study Bible or whatever.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: probound2 on October 10, 2011, 02:13:49 AM
probound, may I ask what is the denomination of your church?  If you'd rather PM me that is fine.

Also, may I ask what type of bible version you normally use and if it is a study bible?  For instance NIV Ryrie Study Bible or Zondervan Life App. Study Bible or whatever.

No church. Independent/group study with friends and interested ones. I use whatever bible sticks to the orginial languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek). Go to bible gateway dot com. They have a variety of versions. Also, there are other sites as well that u can use too.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: Butterbean on October 10, 2011, 06:06:10 AM
No church. Independent/group study with friends and interested ones. I use whatever bible sticks to the orginial languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek). Go to bible gateway dot com. They have a variety of versions. Also, there are other sites as well that u can use too.

Yes, use biblegateway alot...just used it this morn.


Title: Re: Eternal Security according to the Bible
Post by: probound2 on October 11, 2011, 11:08:25 AM
Yes, use biblegateway alot...just used it this morn.

I'm contemplating learning the original languages, so that I don't have to rely on translations. I get tired of having to research the transliterated text to see if indeed the word or phrase being used, means what it meant in the original language. You have to be careful with all the different translated bibles, as some translators are slanted in their view already, thereby rendering certain scripture to mean what fits their belief.

As of now, I have to rely on books, scholars, etc. to clear those issues up, which is very time consuming. I feel like it hampers me from time that  could have been spent in a better fashion.