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Title: PBW: Freeman's "X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Listen Now)
Post by: Andrew1 on March 13, 2010, 01:13:59 PM
Announcement - Episode #183

PBW Presents: The Arnold "X-Files" (Replay Now Available)
 
Toney Freeman's Columbus Confessions & The Australian Pro Report!
 
As part an expanded report, PBW takes you futher inside the 2010 Arnold Classic with Toney Freeman's Arnold Classic "X-Files".  Following his latest Top 5 finish in Columbus, The X-Man comments on the new judging system, the surprising results, and who has the inside position on the 2010 Olympia! -  Presented by MuscleTech, this weeks broadcast also includes a report from Melbourne following Kai Greene's latest conquest at the Australian Pro Show.  

Tune in at www.BodybuildingRadio.co m (http://www.BodybuildingRadio.com)
PBW Replays Provided Courtesy of Bodybuilding.com


Now Available: Dan & Bob visit with Arnold & Kai (View Now at Bodybuilding.com)
http://webcast.bodybuilding.com/fitshow/2010arnold/replays/2010-arnold-finmen-post-show.html

Replay Update:  The Arnold Classic Report with Phil Heath, Nicole Wilkins-Lee, Allan Donnelly and Head-Judge Jim Rockell is now available for on-demand replay.


Presented by MuscleTech and brought to you by Bodybuilding.com and Flex Magazine.
Additional sponsors include Xenadrine, The Muscle Asylum Project, Six Star Muscle and BodySpace!
PBW: The Official radio show of Joe Weider's Olympia Weekend.
A proud sponsor of the NPC National Championships and the USA Championships



Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: 240 is Back on March 13, 2010, 06:58:19 PM
In all honesty, if you throw out the names.... Toney might have been the 3rd best bodybuilder on that Arnold stage


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: Armstrong on March 13, 2010, 07:48:30 PM
Ask Freeman who he had winning the Arnold. And why didnt he go to Australia.  And how he got beat by Melvin 2 weeks ago  ;D


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: adipo8 on March 13, 2010, 09:02:45 PM
X was on his game at the A


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: delta9mda on March 14, 2010, 09:00:15 AM
Ask Freeman who he had winning the Arnold. And why didnt he go to Australia.  And how he got beat by Melvin 2 weeks ago  ;D
he didnt get beat by melvin. look at the pics, he was the clear winner at the phoenix, dont ask me why they gave it to melvin.


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: 240 is Back on March 14, 2010, 10:44:10 AM
Melvin is diced, yeah, but IMO he is stringy now.  Freeman is way fuller, and has 35 more pounds of muscle. 

Dex was a little better at the Aussie than at the Arnold, and Kai was a little worse.  An improved Toney might have won the show.

But surely, a guy like Toney would have cleaned Roelly's clock and got the 3rd place slot at the AUS pro.  Is Toney qualified for the O with his arnold placing?


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: LITTLE JOHN on March 14, 2010, 02:00:56 PM
In a sport of perfection you can't expect a guy with a torn pec to place high, after all it's like placing someone high if they have no calves.


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: 240 is Back on March 15, 2010, 04:31:05 AM
 after all it's like placing someone high if they have no calves.


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: lift 456 on March 15, 2010, 05:37:58 AM
how th heck did melvin beat toney at the phoenix show?  thats just proof we live in an unfair world.


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: Ex Coelis on March 15, 2010, 08:15:05 AM
after all it's like placing someone high if they have no calves.

Ronnie's calves are very large in person


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: lift 456 on March 15, 2010, 01:02:54 PM
Ronnie's calves are very large in person

its cause his thighs are so big.

his calves are almost as good as jays.  better than dexters by a mile


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: delta9mda on March 15, 2010, 01:49:12 PM
Ronnie's calves are very large in person
so are Toney's


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: ~UN_$ung~ on March 15, 2010, 03:25:27 PM
In a sport of perfection you can't expect a guy with a torn pec to place high, after all it's like placing someone high if they have no calves.

dorian won olympias missing an arm


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: LITTLE JOHN on March 15, 2010, 03:33:49 PM
Great point I guess it gets back to the judges they are always fair.


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: ~UN_$ung~ on March 15, 2010, 05:27:58 PM
Great point I guess it gets back to the judges they are always fair.

this is a very subjective sport, the judges dont necessarily choose the best physique, they choose the ,most popular guy who the industry wants to get behind......i like jay cutler, but lets be honest, he does not have the best physique in the IFBB


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: Armstrong on March 15, 2010, 05:31:34 PM
Toney is a good interview.  The guy from Australia that went on the show said Toney wants to move down there  8)


Title: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: lift 456 on March 15, 2010, 05:40:48 PM

Since I'm almost 45 i loved when Freeman told everyone on PBW that he is much younger than his age would say he is.  Thanks Tony, your an inpsiration to all of the old timers on here.  You looked awesome at the Arnold.  I had you 3rd (crushing Little Dexter and Big Branch)


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: LITTLE JOHN on March 15, 2010, 06:25:50 PM
Maybe he just wants a better chance of a place in the australian pro show.


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: adipo8 on March 15, 2010, 09:32:18 PM
Melvin is diced, yeah, but IMO he is stringy now.  Freeman is way fuller, and has 35 more pounds of muscle. 

Dex was a little better at the Aussie than at the Arnold, and Kai was a little worse.  An improved Toney might have won the show.

But surely, a guy like Toney would have cleaned Roelly's clock and got the 3rd place slot at the AUS pro.  Is Toney qualified for the O with his arnold placing?

X - qualifies pretty much every time he hit the stage


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: adipo8 on March 15, 2010, 09:36:58 PM
Since I'm almost 45 i loved when Freeman told everyone on PBW that he is much younger than his age would say he is.  Thanks Tony, your an inpsiration to all of the old timers on here.  You looked awesome at the Arnold.  I had you 3rd (crushing Little Dexter and Big Branch)
X


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: Palpatine Q on March 15, 2010, 10:23:48 PM
Since I'm almost 45 i loved when Freeman told everyone on PBW that he is much younger than his age would say he is.  Thanks Tony, your an inpsiration to all of the old timers on here.  You looked awesome at the Arnold.  I had you 3rd (crushing Little Dexter and Big Branch)

I'm an old fucker myself...I'll be 45 in june. Age is just a number. I still pound the fucking weights heavy and own bitches 10 years younger than me..and fuck bitches ten years younger than me too  ;D


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: HTexan on March 15, 2010, 10:59:39 PM
http://www.break.com/index/epic-beard-man-animation.html


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: erics on March 16, 2010, 05:07:09 AM
Listening to the guys in the interview speak about the posing routine was surreal. It felt as if the arguments were like headless chickens racing around to find their heads. It seems that people are trying to justify the new system when the questions and concerns it raises are easily answered by the system that was in place before.

If the posing routines of the athletes are to be something of value, then judge their routines as part of the competition. Make the thing a part of bodybuilding as sport.

Do you remember when there were posers like Zane, Dickerson, Makkawy, Benaziza, Labrada etc? If the criticism is that in those days the posing rounds weren't really judged primarily on posing, then the simple answer is to judge the posing round primarily on posing.

Toney Freeman mentioned standards quite a lot in the interview and how there aren't really any standards in the sport in order to make it a sport. He mentioned the performance of the mandatories correctly as being one standard, not stepping beyond line as another, each posing routine having to include each of the mandatories etc etc.

Bob then made a plea that $10,000 ought to be enough to motivate the athletes to come up with creative posing routines even though Toney had said that the new posing award system wasn't likely to motivate the athletes. I thought that was telling.

Bob then made the point that the change in the judging system was one that was needed. Unfortunately, I cannot see how making the judging less transparent - or simplistic as opposed to simple - is a step in the right direction.

The simplest answer is to judge each round primarily on the criteria of THAT round. The athlete with the best averages over the contest wins.

Very, very simple.


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: Chick on March 16, 2010, 06:06:20 AM
Not quite...

Bottom line is...it's a PHYSIQUE competition, not a dance contest, not a best poser contest.

MONEY motivates athletes for the most part. No one got into it for the money, but once you find yourself there....it's very much part of being a professional BB.

As for the judging...any physique contest is a combination of all you mentioned, so it's not that easy to simply just "judge each round for what it is..."

most muscular might not be the most symmetrical, or proportioned...so Paco Batista wins that one

most symmetrical isn't necessarily the most muscular, or even one of the top physiques on the stage...lets give it to Kenny Jones

best poser isn't necessarily any of the above...lets give it to Melvin.


So, according to what your ideal is...we have three different round winners, which in all probability, makes it impossible for the best OVERALL physique on the stage, to win the physique contest. A guy who maybe doesn't win ANY round.

How about Kenny, who wins the most symmetrical, also wins the posing round...in the words of my friend Meatloaf ...2 out of 3 ain't bad. It also most likely puts him in the top 3.

As Larry suggested, perhaps some weight could be weighed to each round.. (ex. muscularity 50%, symmetry/ proportion 25%, posing 15%, posedown 10%).....but now were right back to where we started, which never worked in the first place.

Should a guy with the best physique lose the contest because he was the worst poser?
Should a guy who ends up with the best score by an average, win the contest despite not really having the best physique?


To answer your last question: What makes this a better system, is it rewards that competitor with the best PHYSIQUE...making it more convoluted, mathematical, etc...only insures more questinable outcomes.






Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: 240 is Back on March 16, 2010, 06:10:59 AM
LOL... Groink is an awesome role model.


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: kiwiol on March 16, 2010, 06:13:14 AM
I'm an old fucker myself...I'll be 45 in june. Age is just a number. I still pound the fucking weights heavy and own bitches 10 years younger than me..and fuck bitches ten years younger than me too  ;D

40s is the new 30s


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: Parker on March 16, 2010, 06:17:39 AM
40s is the new 30s
As one R&B artist said to Jay Z in a song, "No, 40 is still 40" ;D

What's gonna happen is eventually we might lived to biblical ages you know like 400 yrs old, but women can stillonly have kids at roughly in there early 40's...i don't want to see no 300 yr old female having kids.


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: Kwon on March 16, 2010, 06:43:54 AM
I'm an old fucker myself...I'll be 45 in june. Age is just a number. I still pound the fucking weights heavy and own bitches 10 years younger than me..and fuck bitches ten years younger than me too  ;D

Always thought you were younger.



Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: erics on March 16, 2010, 06:45:41 AM
Thanks for responding.

What is wrong with each round being judged on all aspects of a physique but with, for example, symmetry being weighted more heavily in the symmetry round? Surely it is not that difficult to judge in this way?

Perhaps it would be better to phrase it like this:

How would having exceptional posers (eg: Labrada, Makkawy etc), a transparent and accountable system of judging and a more dignified presence be detrimental to the growth of the sport?

You are one hundred percent right when you say that the bottom line is that bodybuilding is a physique competition. But posing and presentation are part of what makes a physique look good, right?

If the guy with the best physique loses to a guy who is slightly behind him in physique but miles ahead in posing, where is the problem with that? If you are worried about crazy placings, then that is just a matter of tinkering with the scoring.

Other sports can do it so I don't see why bodybuilding can't.


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: Mr Nobody on March 16, 2010, 07:44:01 AM
Tony always gets ripped off in judging most times the biggest tallest guy and in condition.


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: Matt C on March 16, 2010, 08:00:30 AM
60 is the new 20.

At least it seems that way since most 20 something bodybuilders look 60.  :-X


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: Option D on March 16, 2010, 08:05:32 AM
60 is the new 20.

At least it seems that way since most 20 something bodybuilders look 60.  :-X
shut up.. you look like shit


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: io856 on March 16, 2010, 08:08:59 AM
60 is the new 20.

At least it seems that way since most 20 something bodybuilders look 60.  :-X
Incorrect.

You only really get to see the bodybuilders in their contest mode (willing to get pics taken). During this period of low bodyfat and water depletion you of course look far older. Now during an off season prep the higher bodyfat and water retention you can actually look a lot younger! with what appears to be "puppy fat" and chubby cheeks  ;) baby face

Of course then there are the guys like Luke Wood who admitted to the perpetual use of diuretics... Thats a bit different...


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: Matt C on March 16, 2010, 08:09:25 AM
shut up.. you look like shit

Yes, if your standard is winning bodybuilding contests.


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: Option D on March 16, 2010, 08:11:30 AM
Yes, if your standard is winning bodybuilding contests.

LOL...Which ones.


Title: Re: PBW: Freeman's "X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Listen Now)
Post by: lastrep on March 16, 2010, 09:33:50 AM
Erics put it perfectly..

POSING and PRESENTATION are critical to the PHYSIQUE display. One needs to master posing and presentation to show the PHYSIQUE to it fullest potential. Should a guy that can't pose but has the best physique lose.. OF COURSE.

Thing you all need to remember is that no two judges will have an EXACT opinion on EVERY SINGLE bodybuilder on the stage. It's is an OPINION-BASED sport.. that is why with every single show you have fans and judges and athletes who see things a bit differently.

In my opinion Kai was the MOST COMPLETE BODYBUILDER on the Arnold stage with the LEAST amount of flaws.

Clear winner and well deserved.


Title: Re: PBW: Freeman's "X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Listen Now)
Post by: MB on March 16, 2010, 10:12:59 AM
There is no such thing as judging muscularity or symmetry by themselves.  There never was.  The old system was set up to judge the best physique, rather it was quarter turns, mandatories, or free posing.  The new system is fine (eliminating the posing round judging), but I do agree with Larry Pepe, it shouldn't be weighted 50/50 between pre-judging and the posedown.  I would have made it 75/25, giving the pre-judging the majority of the decision. 

In reality, splitting the contest between a pre-judging and finals show is an antiquated system.  Why not move pre-judging to the night show and begin with each guy doing his 8 mandatories (as is done now), but let it be a 1 minute free posing routine where all 8 mandatories are shown.  Then, do callout comparisons and add up the scores.  No posedown. 


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: Chick on March 16, 2010, 10:43:51 AM
Thanks for responding.

What is wrong with each round being judged on all aspects of a physique but with, for example, symmetry being weighted more heavily in the symmetry round? Surely it is not that difficult to judge in this way?

We just got rid of that system, as It never reflected the title...why have different rounds then?  

Perhaps it would be better to phrase it like this:

How would having exceptional posers (eg: Labrada, Makkawy etc), a transparent and accountable system of judging and a more dignified presence be detrimental to the growth of the sport?

It wouldn't...some guys put more stock into posing than others...cant all be Labradas, shawn Rays, etc

You are one hundred percent right when you say that the bottom line is that bodybuilding is a physique competition. But posing and presentation are part of what makes a physique look good, right?

If you're THAT inept at showcasing your physique, chances are you never would have made it to the pro's...



If the guy with the best physique loses to a guy who is slightly behind him in physique but miles ahead in posing, where is the problem with that? If you are worried about crazy placings, then that is just a matter of tinkering with the scoring.

I have a HUGE problem with that, as I stated (and you agreed with)...it's a PHYSIQUE competition

Other sports can do it so I don't see why bodybuilding can't.


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: Wiggs on March 16, 2010, 12:20:32 PM
I'm an old fucker myself...I'll be 45 in june. Age is just a number. I still pound the fucking weights heavy and own bitches 10 years younger than me..and fuck bitches ten years younger than me too  ;D

Holy shit...I thought you were around my age in your early 30s


Title: Re: Toney Freeman is the man!!
Post by: ~UN_$ung~ on March 16, 2010, 12:31:15 PM
when people are in their teens or 20's........they are exactly as old as their age says they are

but when you get to your 40's or 50s........its a little different

you can have a 45 year old who takes care of himself, who can perform, and look, like a dude in his 30's................likewis e, you can have another 45 year old, who does not take care of himself, and looks like a man who is older


the point is, if you take care of yourself......you can extend your youthful years well into your 40,50's, or 60's


Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: erics on March 16, 2010, 04:13:13 PM
Quote
We just got rid of that system, as It never reflected the title...why have different rounds then?
That doesn't mean the best physiques weren't winning. As for why have different rounds, that's easy. You use them to develop a kind of pacing, a race if you will, leading to the final winner. As the rounds progress, the competitors get eliminated and things like posing ability start to make real differences in otherwise similar level physiques.

Quote
It wouldn't...some guys put more stock into posing than others...cant all be Labradas, shawn Rays, etc

No, we can't but it would provide an element of respect were those types set up as a real standard to aim for with benefits if you achieved such a standard. Those guys didn't exactly have junk physiques either... If posing was a real part of the sport, then perhaps more guys would put more stock into it. Putting more stock into it (from an admin point of view) would also lead to a greater focus on judging accountability and the image of dignity for the sport.

Quote
If you're THAT inept at showcasing your physique, chances are you never would have made it to the pro's...

Haha. Hitting most musculars to a gangsta rap track is not eactly setting the standards alight...

Thanks for responding.







Title: Re: PBW: Toney Freeman's "Arnold X-Files" - Plus: The Australia Report (Monday)
Post by: lastrep on March 18, 2010, 03:36:00 PM
Hitting most musculars to a gangsta rap track is not eactly setting the standards alight...

Very true.. over 50% of the IFBB "Pros" have NO clue how to pose. They put on some lame rap or rock music and hit front double bi's and most muscular while walking back from left to right stage putting their hands to their ears. Very lame and ruins the sport.

Let's set a standard.. anything to help push the sport in the right (public) direction for more exposure and ACCEPTANCE by the general public.

Putting the posing aspect of the sport even lower on the totem pole just pushes the sports in the wrong direction.