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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: andreisdaman on July 08, 2010, 12:00:18 PM
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What if a cosmic being of infinite wisdom appeared and stated that he would take you on a journey through time and space and would show you every secret to the universe?..secrets such as why are we here, is there a God and who/what is he/her, what is our purpose here, are there other life forms out there, what is beyond the universe, and are we here through evolution or devine intervention?
But......this being also told you that once you have learned all of these secrets you would have to die since it would be too dangerous for you to share this knowledge with the world..would you take the deal?
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There is a verse in the bible that talks about this very thing; Paul wrote this to the Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—
4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
You seem to be searching but in a futile direction, maybe God is tugging at you, just a thought.
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What if a cosmic being of infinite wisdom appeared and stated that he would take you on a journey through time and space and would show you every secret to the universe?..secrets such as why are we here, is there a God and who/what is he/her, what is our purpose here, are there other life forms out there, what is beyond the universe, and are we here through evolution or devine intervention?
But......this being also told you that once you have learned all of these secrets you would have to die since it would be too dangerous for you to share this knowledge with the world..would you take the deal?
No. That would be like killing yourself just to find out if there is anything beyond death, and if so what is it.
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There is a verse in the bible that talks about this very thing; Paul wrote this to the Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—
4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
You seem to be searching but in a futile direction, maybe God is tugging at you, just a thought.
Very nice post...but I don't think God is tugging at me..I (and many others) are pulling away from him....this hypothetical being might reveal that there is no God....and that we are the result of natural phenomena....you never know...but lets say this being told you this..would you STILL believe in God??....thats the question for you to answer to yourself
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Very nice post...but I don't think God is tugging at me..I (and many others) are pulling away from him....this hypothetical being might reveal that there is no God....and that we are the result of natural phenomena....you never know...but lets say this being told you this..would you STILL believe in God??....thats the question for you to answer to yourself
Interesting stuff!
Hypothetically, a powerful, more intelligent being from another planet could reveal itself to us and tell us that there is no God. Yet, that would not mean that there is no God, but simply that this being thinks that there isn't, even if God does exist.
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Interesting stuff!
Hypothetically, a powerful, more intelligent being from another planet could reveal itself to us and tell us that there is no God. Yet, that would not mean that there is no God, but simply that this being thinks that there isn't, even if God does exist.
very good point...entirely possible
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I know the secret. Pm me if u want ;)
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What if a cosmic being of infinite wisdom appeared and stated that he would take you on a journey through time and space and would show you every secret to the universe?..secrets such as why are we here, is there a God and who/what is he/her, what is our purpose here, are there other life forms out there, what is beyond the universe, and are we here through evolution or devine intervention?
But......this being also told you that once you have learned all of these secrets you would have to die since it would be too dangerous for you to share this knowledge with the world..would you take the deal?
Honestly, while I'm remotely curious as to how it all began and what's out there, I wouldn't even be tempted to give up my life to know, as I rarely spend any time thinking about it. It's just not that big a deal to me as life goes on, and it's what you make of it. Now if he could solve the rough idle on my 79 Bandit Trans Am, I might consider it..
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What if a cosmic being of infinite wisdom appeared and stated that he would take you on a journey through time and space and would show you every secret to the universe?..secrets such as why are we here, is there a God and who/what is he/her, what is our purpose here, are there other life forms out there, what is beyond the universe, and are we here through evolution or devine intervention?
But......this being also told you that once you have learned all of these secrets you would have to die since it would be too dangerous for you to share this knowledge with the world..would you take the deal?
Not unless I was extremely depressed and 100% suicidal at the moment.
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Not unless I was extremely depressed and 100% suicidal at the moment.
Hahahah...funny!..I guess if you are suicidal anyway, it would be worth it to know!
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Very nice post...but I don't think God is tugging at me..I (and many others) are pulling away from him....this hypothetical being might reveal that there is no God....and that we are the result of natural phenomena....you never know...but lets say this being told you this..would you STILL believe in God??....thats the question for you to answer to yourself
You can't pull away from God. I liken your pulling away (and many others) from God to a fish (a 2lbs catfish) caught on the hook (a 19/0) and the fisherman releases the drag and let's you run until you are too tired to go any farther because 1) the weight of the hook (burden of this world) is too great for you to carry and 2) you are on a short line (short life span) anyway. Then when you are done fighting he reels you in and decides whther or not to keep you or throw you back in.
If this hypothetical being of infinite wisdom were to snatch me up I would say, yes dear hypothetical being, you must be God Almighty and there is none beside you, so show me every mystery and secret that you have witheld from mankind and I will shed this earth suit quicker than you can say let there be light.
Now, my question to you, when it comes to the death part are we talking Christian death or non christian death? There is a difference you know? I would only die if it was the Christian death.
HM
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You can't pull away from God. I liken your pulling away (and many others) from God to a fish (a 2lbs catfish) caught on the hook (a 19/0) and the fisherman releases the drag and let's you run until you are too tired to go any farther because 1) the weight of the hook (burden of this world) is too great for you to carry and 2) you are on a short line (short life span) anyway. Then when you are done fighting he reels you in and decides whther or not to keep you or throw you back in.
If this hypothetical being of infinite wisdom were to snatch me up I would say, yes dear hypothetical being, you must be God Almighty and there is none beside you, so show me every mystery and secret that you have witheld from mankind and I will shed this earth suit quicker than you can say let there be light.
Now, my question to you, when it comes to the death part are we talking Christian death or non christian death? There is a difference you know? I would only die if it was the Christian death.
HM
Good point...what do you consider to be a christian death and a non-christian death?..
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Good point...what do you consider to be a christian death and a non-christian death?..
Technically a Christian death is no different than a non christian death. It's what allegedly happens after the death that is different. Which of course is totally in the realm of "no one knows, but everyone has an opinion"
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Good point...what do you consider to be a christian death and a non-christian death?..
This is according to the bible not an opinion.
Christian After Death = Eternity is spent in Heaven or Paradise with God, in a state that is beautiful beyond our ability to conceive.
Non-Christian After Death = Eternity is spent in Hell with Satan and his demons. All are tormented and tortured, in isolation from God, without any hope of mercy or relief.
Andreisdaman, I think you know what I meant but some like to be "TECHNICAL"
HM
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This is according to the bible not an opinion.
Christian After Death = Eternity is spent in Heaven or Paradise with God, in a state that is beautiful beyond our ability to conceive.
Non-Christian After Death = Eternity is spent in Hell with Satan and his demons. All are tormented and tortured, in isolation from God, without any hope of mercy or relief.
Andreisdaman, I think you know what I meant but some like to be "TECHNICAL"
HM
Well..depends on what you believe...I don't believe in christian death or in any other death....you die..you die..thats it.....you don't go anywhere to spend eternity with some mystical being..thats something we made up to comfort us in the face of death.....do dogs go to heaven?...I think not..how about elephants?
We die and we just simply return to that state in which we were originally made from...whether it be dust, energy, what have you...
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Well..depends on what you believe...I don't believe in christian death or in any other death....you die..you die..thats it.....you don't go anywhere to spend eternity with some mystical being..thats something we made up to comfort us in the face of death.....do dogs go to heaven?...I think not..how about elephants?
We die and we just simply return to that state in which we were originally made from...whether it be dust, energy, what have you...
...you die..thats it.....you don't go anywhere to spend eternity with some mystical being..thats something we made up to comfort us in the face of death.....do dogs go to heaven?...I think not..how about elephants?
Far be it from me to tread on a man's beliefs but I will always provide biblical scripture for any questions asked. If the bible is true animals will be in heaven.
Isaiah 11: 6-9 says:
6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
And
Isaiah 65:17-19, 25 says:
17 "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people;the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD.
The bible says animals will be on the new earth but not corrupted by sin. I could be misinterpreting this but it seems like after the corrupt earth is distroyed and passed away a new one will be created free of corruption. This means no more bad people and most of all no more sin. I think its worth hoping for because I would love to play with a lion or not have to kill to eat, how about you? And if the bible is a fairytale and we all end up the way you say we will (dust and/or energy) I lose nothing but if the bible is correct well you know the rest of that story.
HM
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Good try...but no cigar.....so if a wolf eats a lamb then they would both go to heaven and actually spend time with each other???....hard to believe....
Lets face it..there is no Heaven...there could be a being who created us...but you are not going to reside wherever he/she is when you die....how do you make that journey exactly?...
not trying to belittle your belief system...just looking at things scientifically....if you're a believer then you're a believer...I'm not
We simply die, then decompose
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Good try...but no cigar.....so if a wolf eats a lamb then they would both go to heaven and actually spend time with each other???....hard to believe....
Lets face it..there is no Heaven...there could be a being who created us...but you are not going to reside wherever he/she is when you die....how do you make that journey exactly?...
not trying to belittle your belief system...just looking at things scientifically....if you're a believer then you're a believer...I'm not
We simply die, then decompose
The verses provided do not say that animals go to heaven when they die but only says that animals will be in heaven. I have never read anything in the bible saying that God has a salvation plan for animals; I do not know where animals go after they die.
You hope there is no Heaven and that's the best you can do with that; you shouldn't say that as a matter of fact. Anyway, I have given you verse upon verse from the source I believe in to answer your questions as best I can, you on the other hand have given me nothing but your OPINION can you at least provide something that says there is no God or Heaven. Maybe there is a non-believer's bible out there you can quote from but your OPINION means nothing. The only truth you have stated is that when we (Man or animal) die we decompose, now that is truth! Now I respect that you have chosen science to be your God but remember science is about gathering knowledge about nature, ect. Science only studys what has already been laid down by... it does not create by itself and that is a fact. Anyway live your life as you please and die as you will but one thing is true you will die!
HM
HM
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The verses provided do not say that animals go to heaven when they die but only says that animals will be in heaven. I have never read anything in the bible saying that God has a salvation plan for animals; I do not know where animals go after they die.
You hope there is no Heaven and that's the best you can do with that; you shouldn't say that as a matter of fact. Anyway, I have given you verse upon verse from the source I believe in to answer your questions as best I can, you on the other hand have given me nothing but your OPINION can you at least provide something that says there is no God or Heaven. Maybe there is a non-believer's bible out there you can quote from but your OPINION means nothing. The only truth you have stated is that when we (Man or animal) die we decompose, now that is truth! Now I respect that you have chosen science to be your God but remember science is about gathering knowledge about nature, ect. Science only studys what has already been laid down by... it does not create by itself and that is a fact. Anyway live your life as you please and die as you will but one thing is true you will die!
HM
HM
Here's the thing with most atheists, or agnostics.. We don't hope there is no heaven.. we don't really hope anything. We tend to base our belief, or lack of belief on what information we have at hand. Currently, science (the same science you depend on when you get sick, break your leg, trust in homogenizing the milk you drink, designed the building you work or visit in, the aircraft you flew in etc etc) doesn't support the notion of life after death. It tends to support the contention that the same thing that happens to the possum you ran over last week, happens to us. Most people aren't losing sleep over the fact Bessy the cow got a pin through the brain and is now being served at McDonalds. Most people, Christians included, belief Bessy is gone.. no afterlife chewing cud in the beautiful meadows with the sun shining down on the sunflowers while a slight breeze rustles the tall green grass. Well, atheists and agnostics figure there is no difference.. I suspect if you spoke fluent bovine, you might learn the cows believe in some cushy, wonderful eternity because they too don't cotton to the idea of death all that much.
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agnostic..you r having a discussion with hustle... ???
might as well argue with a weed wacker :(
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agnostic..you r having a discussion with hustle... ???
might as well argue with a weed wacker :(
Explain yourself, my fellow Marylander? BTW I prefer "stop sign".
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Here's the thing with most atheists, or agnostics.. We don't hope there is no heaven.. we don't really hope anything. We tend to base our belief, or lack of belief on what information we have at hand. Currently, science (the same science you depend on when you get sick, break your leg, trust in homogenizing the milk you drink, designed the building you work or visit in, the aircraft you flew in etc etc) doesn't support the notion of life after death. It tends to support the contention that the same thing that happens to the possum you ran over last week, happens to us. Most people aren't losing sleep over the fact Bessy the cow got a pin through the brain and is now being served at McDonalds. Most people, Christians included, belief Bessy is gone.. no afterlife chewing cud in the beautiful meadows with the sun shining down on the sunflowers while a slight breeze rustles the tall green grass. Well, atheists and agnostics figure there is no difference.. I suspect if you spoke fluent bovine, you might learn the cows believe in some cushy, wonderful eternity because they too don't cotton to the idea of death all that much.
Nice post...sums it up better than I can....
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Here's the thing with most atheists, or agnostics.. We don't hope there is no heaven.. we don't really hope anything. We tend to base our belief, or lack of belief on what information we have at hand. Currently, science (the same science you depend on when you get sick, break your leg, trust in homogenizing the milk you drink, designed the building you work or visit in, the aircraft you flew in etc etc) doesn't support the notion of life after death. It tends to support the contention that the same thing that happens to the possum you ran over last week, happens to us. Most people aren't losing sleep over the fact Bessy the cow got a pin through the brain and is now being served at McDonalds. Most people, Christians included, belief Bessy is gone.. no afterlife chewing cud in the beautiful meadows with the sun shining down on the sunflowers while a slight breeze rustles the tall green grass. Well, atheists and agnostics figure there is no difference.. I suspect if you spoke fluent bovine, you might learn the cows believe in some cushy, wonderful eternity because they too don't cotton to the idea of death all that much.
Nice post
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I know this is an old thread but instead of puting up a similar thread I'll bump this one for anyone who chooses to respond or want to talk about this topic
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This is according to the bible not an opinion.
Christian After Death = Eternity is spent in Heaven or Paradise with God, in a state that is beautiful beyond our ability to conceive.
Non-Christian After Death = Eternity is spent in Hell with Satan and his demons. All are tormented and tortured, in isolation from God, without any hope of mercy or relief.
Andreisdaman, I think you know what I meant but some like to be "TECHNICAL"
HM
what a crock of shit.
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what a crock of shit.
I don't believe it either.....there is no sentient "God" in my opinion....no Heaven and no Hell......there just.................is
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what a crock of shit.
I don't believe it either.....there is no sentient "God" in my opinion....no Heaven and no Hell......there just.................is
Have either of y'all earnestly sought God (of the bible....the Christian God) according to his terms as outlined in scripture?
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Have either of y'all earnestly sought God (of the bible....the Christian God) according to his terms as outlined in scripture?
theres nothing to seek..just some ravings fro a bunch of old guys in ancient times qwho were trying to impose dogma on the rest of society
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theres nothing to seek..just some ravings fro a bunch of old guys in ancient times qwho were trying to impose dogma on the rest of society
Have you had the opportunity to read the bible?
How is it you're certain there's nothing to seek?
Do you understand the "dogma"?
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Have either of y'all earnestly sought God (of the bible....the Christian God) according to his terms as outlined in scripture?
I think Jesus would have some things to say about the Bible :)
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I think Jesus would have some things to say about the Bible :)
What do you think he would say about it?
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What do you think he would say about it?
that its mostly fake (although maybe not intentionally)
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that its mostly fake (although maybe not intentionally)
What parts are fake and what parts are real?
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What parts are fake and what parts are real?
I'd have to put some thought into it...but what do you think?
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I'd have to put some thought into it...but what do you think?
I believe the bible was written by men under the inspiration of God. I believe that all 66 books of the bible were written over the course of approx 1,500 years. I believe the bible to be completely accurate and truthful. I believe it contains stories of supernatural events and origins. I believe it contains stories that depict both the best and worst in people. I believe it to be consistent and accurate. I believe every bit of the bible points to Jesus Christ and mankind's need for him.
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I believe the bible was written by men under the inspiration of God. I believe that all 66 books of the bible were written over the course of approx 1,500 years. I believe the bible to be completely accurate and truthful. I believe it contains stories of supernatural events and origins. I believe it contains stories that depict both the best and worst in people. I believe it to be consistent and accurate. I believe every bit of the bible points to Jesus Christ and mankind's need for him.
I believe that the Bible was writen by men who THOUGHT they were under the inspiration of God...I would say that while some events in the Bible did in fact happen, I believe that a lot of the events were ASCRIBED to devine intervention and the supernatural......Maybe the Bible pointed to Jesus but that doesn't mean that Jesus was the son opf God but maybe THOUGHT he was...just as I am sure there were others who THOUGHT they were the son of God as well...not to lessen his importance to the world....he was still the most important figure in the history of the world and yes mankind probably DID need a fugure like him to emerge but he was basically a cult leader NOT the son of God
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I believe that the Bible was writen by men who THOUGHT they were under the inspiration of God...I would say that while some events in the Bible did in fact happen, I believe that a lot of the events were ASCRIBED to devine intervention and the supernatural......Maybe the Bible pointed to Jesus but that doesn't mean that Jesus was the son opf God but maybe THOUGHT he was...just as I am sure there were others who THOUGHT they were the son of God as well...not to lessen his importance to the world....he was still the most important figure in the history of the world and yes mankind probably DID need a fugure like him to emerge but he was basically a cult leader NOT the son of God
So you agree that Jesus existed, but you don't believe him to be God.....is that correct?
You also don't believe the bible is inspired by God?
What is your best explanation for prophetic scripture written hundreds and hundreds of years before Christ's life and ministry on earth that predicted his birth and death accurately and was fulfilled completely?
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So you agree that Jesus existed, but you don't believe him to be God.....is that correct?
You also don't believe the bible is inspired by God?
What is your best explanation for prophetic scripture written hundreds and hundreds of years before Christ's life and ministry on earth that predicted his birth and death accurately and was fulfilled completely?
Because I believe in the human potential to awaken and realize their true nature which is oneness I can believe that Jesus was God but not in an exclusive sense of being the only human to unite with the source of life. Indeed I think he would not want us to think this way but to also realize what he realized. The kingdom of heaven is within you, seek and you shall find, these sayings are mystical, encouraging us in to direct experience and liberation not only to live a moral life and believe in the creeds and hope for an eternal afterlife. :)
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Because I believe in the human potential to awaken and realize their true nature which is oneness I can believe that Jesus was God but not in an exclusive sense of being the only human to unite with the source of life. Indeed I think he would not want us to think this way but to also realize what he realized. The kingdom of heaven is within you, seek and you shall find, these sayings are mystical, encouraging us in to direct experience and liberation not only to live a moral life and believe in the creeds and hope for an eternal afterlife. :)
You have an interesting blend of Christianity, Mormonism, Taoism and Buddhism here.....no disrespect meant.
I don't really know yet how to respond. ;D
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So you agree that Jesus existed, but you don't believe him to be God.....is that correct?
You also don't believe the bible is inspired by God?
What is your best explanation for prophetic scripture written hundreds and hundreds of years before Christ's life and ministry on earth that predicted his birth and death accurately and was fulfilled completely?
I agree Jesus did indeed exist...but he WAS NOT the son of God...He gave himself that title either out of ego or due to being misguided or due to feeling he was truly devinely inspired.....many people do have a sense that they were put on earth for a reason...I think due to what was going on at the time he may have felt like he was the son of God placed on earth for a devine purpose....There are a whole bunch of people today who feel they are devinely chosen or are the son of God....should we give them credence as well?????
As for the predictions of the Bible, if you make predictions and wait long enough, a lot of them will come true.....(Just look at the Book of Nostradamus)..there simply is no justification for believing in a God....although I have to admit that the belief in him has probably made humanity better
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Because I believe in the human potential to awaken and realize their true nature which is oneness I can believe that Jesus was God but not in an exclusive sense of being the only human to unite with the source of life. Indeed I think he would not want us to think this way but to also realize what he realized. The kingdom of heaven is within you, seek and you shall find, these sayings are mystical, encouraging us in to direct experience and liberation not only to live a moral life and believe in the creeds and hope for an eternal afterlife. :)
Yes...many people throughout history wake up one day with a unique sense of awareness about the world and whats going on and decide that they are going to change the status quo through leading the upheaval of the current order.......Freud did this when he revolutionized psychology and how we look at human behavior (with his controversial views on sex which the world was not ready for)...Martin Luther did this as well when he called on reform of the catholic church and outlined the reasons why...(very dangerous for its time which could have led to his death)....Galileo, who dared say that the sun and the heavens do not revolve around the earth and that therefore man is not the center of the Universe (for which he was placed on home arrest for the rest of his life).......
Guys like the above are unique individuals in history.....willing to put forth a bold idea that is dangerous, attracts followers and totally scares the poweres-that-be.........I simply believe that Jesus was one such guy........BUT NOT DEVINELY INSPIRED......and regardless, I still maintain he was probably the greatest human being who ever lived
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one can be divinely inspired without falling in to megalomania. This is my view.
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one can be divinely inspired without falling in to megalomania. This is my view.
are you saying that Jesus was a megalomaniac?..or not?
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I am not saying that, I think some things were ascribed to him that an enlightened being would not say like;
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
It is the second part of the saying that is problematic. These words were likely ascribed to him by those evangelizing the new faith.
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what I am talking about is also at the heart of what I consider the most authentic form of Christianity :)
http://www.frimmin.com/faith/mysticismintro.php
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I am not saying that, I think some things were ascribed to him that an enlightened being would not say like;
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
It is the second part of the saying that is problematic. These words were likely ascribed to him by those evangelizing the new faith.
Let's go with your logic then.
How do you interpret those passages of scripture you quoted?
What do you believe to be the purpose of Jesus' life, ministry and death?
What would be the reason for those evangelizing him to make those claims about him given they were continually in fear of losing their lives (and many did because of their evangelizing)?
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I believe that the Bible was writen by men who THOUGHT they were under the inspiration of God...I would say that while some events in the Bible did in fact happen, I believe that a lot of the events were ASCRIBED to devine intervention and the supernatural......Maybe the Bible pointed to Jesus but that doesn't mean that Jesus was the son opf God but maybe THOUGHT he was...just as I am sure there were others who THOUGHT they were the son of God as well...not to lessen his importance to the world....he was still the most important figure in the history of the world and yes mankind probably DID need a fugure like him to emerge but he was basically a cult leader NOT the son of God
The folks from the now infamous "Jesus Seminar" made a lot of similar claims. Essentially they edited the gospels of the NT picking and choose what they felt conformed to a more naturalistic and acceptable view of Jesus Christ. In doing so they acknowledged his life and death, but removed those verses that indicated his divinity and divine purpose.
So, on what basis do you feel appropriate to remove or redefine elements of scripture? Is it based on your opinion or your own common sense or something else?
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what I am talking about is also at the heart of what I consider the most authentic form of Christianity :)
http://www.frimmin.com/faith/mysticismintro.php
This is essentially a spin on Mormonism in that Mormons aspire to literally become gods themselves.
New folks that join the Mormon church aren't initially exposed to that idea.....it's not that it's hidden, but it's not initially disclosed either.
Having an encounter with God is at the heart of Christianity, but that encounter involves the Holy Spirit which indwells believers (or lives within the believer). Yet their nature is still human.....they do not become divine.....there is only one God.
Folks that surrender to God and accept what he did on Calvary's cross and call him savior are saved and deemed righteous. The encounter with God happens via the Holy Spirit that lives within the believer, changing them from the inside out and purposing them for his will for their lives.
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I agree Jesus did indeed exist...but he WAS NOT the son of God...He gave himself that title either out of ego or due to being misguided or due to feeling he was truly devinely inspired.....many people do have a sense that they were put on earth for a reason...I think due to what was going on at the time he may have felt like he was the son of God placed on earth for a devine purpose....There are a whole bunch of people today who feel they are devinely chosen or are the son of God....should we give them credence as well?????
As for the predictions of the Bible, if you make predictions and wait long enough, a lot of them will come true.....(Just look at the Book of Nostradamus)..there simply is no justification for believing in a God....although I have to admit that the belief in him has probably made humanity better
Nostradamus' predictions have been repeatedly used to explain different events and his primary predictions have been repeatedly debunked.
Prophetic scripture, on the other hand, has not been debunked....it's just simply denied or reimagined. Why? Doesn't fit people's worldviews.
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Nostradamus' predictions have been repeatedly used to explain different events and his primary predictions have been repeatedly debunked.
Prophetic scripture, on the other hand, has not been debunked....it's just simply denied or reimagined. Why? Doesn't fit people's worldviews.
Ironic.... I was just having a discussion with someone the other day about arguing politics and religion. Someone said "name one accomplishment Obama had done in his presidency that wasn't horrific." So the person started naming some things. With each thing offered, the other guy refused to accept it. So at the end of an hour one guy was still convinced Obama hadn't done one good thing and the other guy was convinced his buddy was closed minded and refuses to admit he's wrong. Kind of reminded me of an atheist and a christian arguing over contradictions or prophecies in the bible. It's pointless.
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Ironic.... I was just having a discussion with someone the other day about arguing politics and religion. Someone said "name one accomplishment Obama had done in his presidency that wasn't horrific." So the person started naming some things. With each thing offered, the other guy refused to accept it. So at the end of an hour one guy was still convinced Obama hadn't done one good thing and the other guy was convinced his buddy was closed minded and refuses to admit he's wrong. Kind of reminded me of an atheist and a christian arguing over contradictions or prophecies in the bible. It's pointless.
All a believer can do when speaking to an atheist is try and understand their perspective, give insights into objections they have, answer questions where able and simply demonstrate that they represent Christ.
The discussion can feel pointless to some, but I don't speak about my faith hoping to convert an atheist to Christ. Now, if that happens then awesome, but I'm under no delusion that it will....firm choices have been made.
I'm speaking to those that haven't made a choice and that aren't speaking because they may not know what to say. Atheists and agnostics are at the forefront of most discussion because they have made a definite choice about God and choose to voice it and engage theists. I use those dialogues as opportunities to provide the other side of the coin - the Christian answer to the atheist question. I'm not always successful, but I learn as I go.
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Ironic.... I was just having a discussion with someone the other day about arguing politics and religion. Someone said "name one accomplishment Obama had done in his presidency that wasn't horrific." So the person started naming some things. With each thing offered, the other guy refused to accept it. So at the end of an hour one guy was still convinced Obama hadn't done one good thing and the other guy was convinced his buddy was closed minded and refuses to admit he's wrong. Kind of reminded me of an atheist and a christian arguing over contradictions or prophecies in the bible. It's pointless.
Good point....most people in today's America are so close-minded that no one will concede their point of view.....back in teh old days, people's opinions would change or evolve when exposed to more information......there was more critical thinking.....now its become an us vs them thing and arguments now get no where and nothing is accomplished...it takes all the fun and joy out of debate and the debate just becomes tedious and a time-waster.
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Good point....most people in today's America are so close-minded that no one will concede their point of view.....back in teh old days, people's opinions would change or evolve when exposed to more information......there was more critical thinking.....now its become an us vs them thing and arguments now get no where and nothing is accomplished...it takes all the fun and joy out of debate and the debate just becomes tedious and a time-waster.
What period of time do you refer to when you note "the old days"? What new information are you referring to?
When it comes to religious discussion some of the points have been raised and discussed for thousands of years.
New generations reaching the same conclusions as past generations and often raising objections that have often been put to bed by past generations.
Religious folks are continually labeled as narrow-minded, but when a person experiences the risen Christ in their life they realize other gods are false, that Christ rose from the dead. No other world religion or cult has a resurrected God like Jesus Christ. Christians in particular are narrow minded because Christ is the narrow gate.
Matthew 7:13-14
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
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Christians can be narrow minded, Christ is not.
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What period of time do you refer to when you note "the old days"? What new information are you referring to?
When it comes to religious discussion some of the points have been raised and discussed for thousands of years.
New generations reaching the same conclusions as past generations and often raising objections that have often been put to bed by past generations.
Religious folks are continually labeled as narrow-minded, but when a person experiences the risen Christ in their life they realize other gods are false, that Christ rose from the dead. No other world religion or cult has a resurrected God like Jesus Christ. Christians in particular are narrow minded because Christ is the narrow gate.
Matthew 7:13-14
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
Interesting.. you seem to put a lot of stock in "no other world religion or cult has a resurrected God like Jesus Christ". From an outsider point of view...it begs the question "so? why is that better than a religion without a resurrected god? Why is that different than the religions of the past like Mithraism that had a very similar resurrected god story that predateds Christianity?"
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Interesting.. you seem to put a lot of stock in "no other world religion or cult has a resurrected God like Jesus Christ". From an outsider point of view...it begs the question "so? why is that better than a religion without a resurrected god? Why is that different than the religions of the past like Mithraism that had a very similar resurrected god story that predateds Christianity?"
Simply put, the resurrection of Christ is validated in history through non-biblical, non-Christian, contemporaneous writings. No other "god" has had prophecy fulfilled like Christ has in scripture. Since his resurrection Jesus Christ has been experienced by millions (both Christian and non-Christian).
So tell me about the similarities that exist between Christ and Mithras? Most I've read about are a great deal of a stretch at the very, very best.
Despite the rather marginal evidence supporting the existence of a Mithraic following prior to Christ many theological scholars and educators of mystery religions do acknowledge an earlier date for the cult of Mithras although they do agree that later Mithraic followings actually borrowed from Christianity.
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Simply put, the resurrection of Christ is validated in history through non-biblical, non-Christian, contemporaneous writings. No other "god" has had prophecy fulfilled like Christ has in scripture. Since his resurrection Jesus Christ has been experienced by millions (both Christian and non-Christian).
So tell me about the similarities that exist between Christ and Mithras? Most I've read about are a great deal of a stretch at the very, very best.
Despite the rather marginal evidence supporting the existence of a Mithraic following prior to Christ many theological scholars and educators of mystery religions do acknowledge an earlier date for the cult of Mithras although they do agree that later Mithraic followings actually borrowed from Christianity.
There was no resurrection....get over it
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There was no resurrection....get over it
Well guess that settles that!
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Well guess that settles that!
neither of us can prove that it did or didn't happen...therefore my statement is as valid as yours......the only way there could have been a resurrection is if the Romans thought Jesus was dead and then he briefly became conscious again before succumbing to his injuries...
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Simply put, the resurrection of Christ is validated in history through non-biblical, non-Christian, contemporaneous writings. No other "god" has had prophecy fulfilled like Christ has in scripture. Since his resurrection Jesus Christ has been experienced by millions (both Christian and non-Christian).
So tell me about the similarities that exist between Christ and Mithras? Most I've read about are a great deal of a stretch at the very, very best.
Despite the rather marginal evidence supporting the existence of a Mithraic following prior to Christ many theological scholars and educators of mystery religions do acknowledge an earlier date for the cult of Mithras although they do agree that later Mithraic followings actually borrowed from Christianity.
Jesus....seriously?
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neither of us can prove that it did or didn't happen...therefore my statement is as valid as yours......the only way there could have been a resurrection is if the Romans thought Jesus was dead and then he briefly became conscious again before succumbing to his injuries...
I can lead you right to Christ, but it's up to you to seek him individually and come to him on his terms. You want Christ to reveal himself to you in powerful ways then you must come to him as outlined in scripture.
The burden of surrendering to Christ on his terms is each individual's. My job is to share my faith and help others that want to know Christ.
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Jesus....seriously?
Mithra, Horus and other mystery religions and cults are topics that new generations of atheists discover over and over. Unfortunately, they are antiquated and debunked arguments that are continually recycled as new. With Bill Maher's "Religulous" he helped introduce these topics to the current generation yet neglected to mention the history of the argumentation....gee, wonder why LOL?
Edwin Yamouchi is an expert on such topics and was part of a great Mithraic conference last century that discussed and debunked all the old arguments, but others prior to Dr. Yamouchi had already done the same.
What can I or anyone else do though? People love their "coffee house objections" whether they are valid or not. If you want I'll grab my literature on Mithra and show you how the comparisons between Mithraism and Christianity fall apart.
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Mithra, Horus and other mystery religions and cults are topics that new generations of atheists discover over and over. Unfortunately, they are antiquated and debunked arguments that are continually recycled as new. With Bill Maher's "Religulous" he helped introduce these topics to the current generation yet neglected to mention the history of the argumentation....gee, wonder why LOL?
Edwin Yamouchi is an expert on such topics and was part of a great Mithraic conference last century that discussed and debunked all the old arguments, but others prior to Dr. Yamouchi had already done the same.
What can I or anyone else do though? People love their "coffee house objections" whether they are valid or not. If you want I'll grab my literature on Mithra and show you how the comparisons between Mithraism and Christianity fall apart.
Yet you still feel the resurrection "evidence" is solid... ironic no?
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Yet you still feel the resurrection "evidence" is solid... ironic no?
I've personally experienced the risen Christ....that was pretty solid for me.
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I've personally experienced the risen Christ....that was pretty solid for me.
Dude..lay off the Mushrooms
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Dude..lay off the Mushrooms
LOL!! ;D
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lay on the mushrooms I say!
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What period of time do you refer to when you note "the old days"? What new information are you referring to?
When it comes to religious discussion some of the points have been raised and discussed for thousands of years.
New generations reaching the same conclusions as past generations and often raising objections that have often been put to bed by past generations.
Religious folks are continually labeled as narrow-minded, but when a person experiences the risen Christ in their life they realize other gods are false, that Christ rose from the dead. No other world religion or cult has a resurrected God like Jesus Christ. Christians in particular are narrow minded because Christ is the narrow gate.
Matthew 7:13-14
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
This quote is pure bullshit, all that is needed to go to heaven is accepting christ as your saviour. Hitler would be in Heaven by the standards of your book. God forgives all does he not?
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This quote is pure bullshit, all that is needed to go to heaven is accepting christ as your saviour. Hitler would be in Heaven by the standards of your book. God forgives all does he not?
Christ is that narrow gate.
If Hitler had accepted Christ as savior he would be with his savior after he died.....this is true for anyone that comes to Christ.
The book isn't mine....I didn't author a single word of it. I try and represent Christ and in doing so I represent his word.
No, God does not forgive all. Those that willfully reject Christ will not have their sins forgiven.
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Christ is that narrow gate.
If Hitler had accepted Christ as savior he would be with his savior after he died.....this is true for anyone that comes to Christ.
The book isn't mine....I didn't author a single word of it. I try and represent Christ and in doing so I represent his word.
No, God does not forgive all. Those that willfully reject Christ will not have their sins forgiven.
seems like a pretty broad gate to me, you just admitted hitler could go to heaven simply by accepting christ, ya real difficult. Prison time is more difficult then getting into heaven apparently.
I can't understand how you can live your life like this, it's clearly cut from the same cloth as scientology, yet the timing makes it seem more reasonable?
it's so childish, raping, killing etc all forgiven, not being a christian... unforgivable.
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seems like a pretty broad gate to me, you just admitted hitler could go to heaven simply by accepting christ, ya real difficult. Prison time is more difficult then getting into heaven apparently.
I can't understand how you can live your life like this, it's clearly cut from the same cloth as scientology, yet the timing makes it seem more reasonable?
it's so childish, raping, killing etc all forgiven, not being a christian... unforgivable.
The list of potential sins that could be committed is extremely broad. The path to righteousness is extremely narrow yet available to all.
Yes prison time is more difficult because it's a punishment. Salvation is about redemption and grace...it's a divine gift to avoid the wrath of God's judgement.
The Christian life is not promised to be easy. It's actually promised to be quite difficult....there will be ridicule, hardship, loneliness, pain, etc.... but there's also redemption, righteousness, grace and love.
I'm interested in hearing about the similarities between Christianity and scientology. What are they?
Those that have raped and killed can be forgiven through Christ. Committing sin (an offense against God) creates a divide between the sinner and God. Christ bridges the gap when the sinner says I don't want to sin anymore and want to align myself with God. Remaining a non-Christian means you've chosen to reject God and therefore continue to defy and offend him.
Tell me, why should God forgive someone who outright rejects him and his offer to be aligned with him?
The reality is children behalf in that manner, wanting to have their cake and eat it too. Children are often defiant and act out inappropriately yet don't want to be held accountable when they've done wrong. They often want all to be forgiven with no effort on their part when the threat of accountability, judgement and repercussions are presented.
God gives humanity the opportunity to acknowledge what they've done wrong, turn from that behavior and follow him.....he provides an opportunity to grow and mature and align with him.
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The list of potential sins that could be committed is extremely broad. The path to righteousness is extremely narrow yet available to all.
Yes prison time is more difficult because it's a punishment. Salvation is about redemption and grace...it's a divine gift to avoid the wrath of God's judgement.
The Christian life is not promised to be easy. It's actually promised to be quite difficult....there will be ridicule, hardship, loneliness, pain, etc.... but there's also redemption, righteousness, grace and love.
I'm interested in hearing about the similarities between Christianity and scientology. What are they?
Those that have raped and killed can be forgiven through Christ. Committing sin (an offense against God) creates a divide between the sinner and God. Christ bridges the gap when the sinner says I don't want to sin anymore and want to align myself with God. Remaining a non-Christian means you've chosen to reject God and therefore continue to defy and offend him.
Tell me, why should God forgive someone who outright rejects him and his offer to be aligned with him?
The reality is children behalf in that manner, wanting to have their cake and eat it too. Children are often defiant and act out inappropriately yet don't want to be held accountable when they've done wrong. They often want all to be forgiven with no effort on their part when the threat of accountability, judgement and repercussions are presented.
God gives humanity the opportunity to acknowledge what they've done wrong, turn from that behavior and follow him.....he provides an opportunity to grow and mature and align with him.
you said it all when you said hitler could make it to heaven. Holocaust<not being a christian.
The whole point is that you are talking about god as if he was a human, he has human concerns (do as i say etc), he is jealous, he is like a parent, sounds like something a human cooked up no? If god knows the past present and future, this is all pointless, eternity negates purpose. It's so silly, it's so childish, if god exists he is nothing like us, I know this because I wouldn't drown the entire world when i already knew the outcome. He allows people to make their own decisions, then decides, nah fuck it I will start over, what sense does that make? why would he interfere at all?
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you said it all when you said hitler could make it to heaven. Holocaust<not being a christian.
The whole point is that you are talking about god as if he was a human, he has human concerns (do as i say etc), he is jealous, he is like a parent, sounds like something a human cooked up no? If god knows the past present and future, this is all pointless, eternity negates purpose. It's so silly, it's so childish, if god exists he is nothing like us, I know this because I wouldn't drown the entire world when i already knew the outcome. He allows people to make their own decisions, then decides, nah fuck it I will start over, what sense does that make? why would he interfere at all?
Despite even Hitler having the potential to become a Christian he was clearly not a Christian.
Hitler even claimed to accept and associate with Christianity (as do many), but his works clearly reveal otherwise.
James 2:14-25
Faith without Good Deeds Is Dead
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”
19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.[a] Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
21 Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. 24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
25 Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road.
Hitler may have claimed Christianity, but he clearly lived in opposition of Christ. In the end, the Lord knows the contents of our hearts.
Those who object to God tend to approach him with the notion of “why does God need”. Once you begin forming opinions from that perspective you do so in error. God needs nothing, but he certainly desires a relationship with us.
Within scripture we anthropomorphize God so that his infinite, divine nature is relatable to our finite, human nature.
Yes, God’s nature is divine. God expresses that divine nature in the form of three persons in a trinity: Father, Son and Spirit. The second person of that trinity – God the Son – entered into the world and became incarnate. His nature then became a dual nature in that he is both divine and human. Christianity defines this as the hypostatic union. Jesus Christ became flesh and dwelt among man so that we may truly understand and relate to the God we serve.
What is the divine jealousy of God? Is it the petty jealousy expressed in mankind in which we covet those things that don’t belong to us? No. God is jealous for all that belongs to him and there’s nothing wrong with that. Like a husband that becomes jealous of another man that makes advances upon his wife. That type of jealousy is completely appropriate.
God’s foreknowledge, sovereignty and will for our lives is fully compatible with our ability to choose.
Foreknowledge does not mean the choices have been made for us. Many posit that God could create any number of universes to satisfy a specific circumstance, but I believe he has created the perfect universe already using his foreknowledge of our future free choices. In doing so he provided the opportunity for his own creation to eliminate evil and suffering via their choice for Jesus Christ. He fashioned the world in such a way that our choices would be upheld and he didn't force us to choose one way or another (one exception in that we do have to choose whether to accept or reject God). Yes, his foreknowledge comes before the actual free choices we make, but his creation was contingent upon those future free choices and was perfectly fashioned to uphold them. He allowed the contingency and therefore remains sovereign. When one considers God's predetermined will we should also consider whether or not his will has also been pre-executed. If that were the case then the biblical notion of free will would be meaningless as we are merely puppets. He knows the outcome, but he allows events to play out however based upon our choices. Within that period of choices he desires to guide and direct us back to his will so that our choices – our will – align with his will for our lives.
Why did God “drown the world”? Was it a capricious action? What type of world was drowned? Simply put, the whole of mankind was reprobate and had fully rejected God. He handed down judgment upon the entirety of the world that was completely shrouded in evil and heinous behavior. How many generations of children would continue to be corrupted if he allowed this behavior to persist? How many people would be forever separated from his goodness? It also displayed for future generations the reality of his law and the repercussions for ignoring that law. God never interfered in their lives, but when the all hope for goodness had been eliminated he pronounced judgment upon the reprobate world and saved the small remnant of his people that remained. The world wasn’t restarted….it continued on. Although the reprobate population then entered eternity and remained separated from God as they had chosen to be.
Why would you want a fully evil and hopeless population to continue on?
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Despite even Hitler having the potential to become a Christian he was clearly not a Christian.
Hitler even claimed to accept and associate with Christianity (as do many), but his works clearly reveal otherwise.
James 2:14-25
Faith without Good Deeds Is Dead
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”
19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.[a] Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
21 Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. 24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
25 Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road.
Hitler may have claimed Christianity, but he clearly lived in opposition of Christ. In the end, the Lord knows the contents of our hearts.
Those who object to God tend to approach him with the notion of “why does God need”. Once you begin forming opinions from that perspective you do so in error. God needs nothing, but he certainly desires a relationship with us.
Within scripture we anthropomorphize God so that his infinite, divine nature is relatable to our finite, human nature.
Yes, God’s nature is divine. God expresses that divine nature in the form of three persons in a trinity: Father, Son and Spirit. The second person of that trinity – God the Son – entered into the world and became incarnate. His nature then became a dual nature in that he is both divine and human. Christianity defines this as the hypostatic union. Jesus Christ became flesh and dwelt among man so that we may truly understand and relate to the God we serve.
What is the divine jealousy of God? Is it the petty jealousy expressed in mankind in which we covet those things that don’t belong to us? No. God is jealous for all that belongs to him and there’s nothing wrong with that. Like a husband that becomes jealous of another man that makes advances upon his wife. That type of jealousy is completely appropriate.
God’s foreknowledge, sovereignty and will for our lives is fully compatible with our ability to choose.
Foreknowledge does not mean the choices have been made for us. Many posit that God could create any number of universes to satisfy a specific circumstance, but I believe he has created the perfect universe already using his foreknowledge of our future free choices. In doing so he provided the opportunity for his own creation to eliminate evil and suffering via their choice for Jesus Christ. He fashioned the world in such a way that our choices would be upheld and he didn't force us to choose one way or another (one exception in that we do have to choose whether to accept or reject God). Yes, his foreknowledge comes before the actual free choices we make, but his creation was contingent upon those future free choices and was perfectly fashioned to uphold them. He allowed the contingency and therefore remains sovereign. When one considers God's predetermined will we should also consider whether or not his will has also been pre-executed. If that were the case then the biblical notion of free will would be meaningless as we are merely puppets. He knows the outcome, but he allows events to play out however based upon our choices. Within that period of choices he desires to guide and direct us back to his will so that our choices – our will – align with his will for our lives.
Why did God “drown the world”? Was it a capricious action? What type of world was drowned? Simply put, the whole of mankind was reprobate and had fully rejected God. He handed down judgment upon the entirety of the world that was completely shrouded in evil and heinous behavior. How many generations of children would continue to be corrupted if he allowed this behavior to persist? How many people would be forever separated from his goodness? It also displayed for future generations the reality of his law and the repercussions for ignoring that law. God never interfered in their lives, but when the all hope for goodness had been eliminated he pronounced judgment upon the reprobate world and saved the small remnant of his people that remained. The world wasn’t restarted….it continued on. Although the reprobate population then entered eternity and remained separated from God as they had chosen to be.
Why would you want a fully evil and hopeless population to continue on?
jesus, the mental acrobatics you have to do is astounding. The hitler argument you just made is the no true scotsman fallacy, i need not say more on that.
The last comment on a fully evil and hopeless population is funny also. So the animals were evil? how can something be evil without pre-meditation, is a tiger evil for killing it's prey? the babies were evil? add to the fact that he created these things already knowing the outcome and it's a home run for atheists. God creates man with free will, he doesn't like the choices made with said gift so decides to hit the tilt button. So man's only option is to love god because if we don't he will kill us all. God never even gave them a choice, more like an ultimatum.
I bet those babies thanked god for not allowing them to be corrupted with sin as the waves cast them against the rocks, oh lord thank you for sparing me. Sounds like god doesn't like the possible outcome of free will he can hit the reset button, kinda negates free will no?
How doesn't foreknowledge negate choice? the choice and outcome is already determined, the timing is all that is left.
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jesus, the mental acrobatics you have to do is astounding. The hitler argument you just made is the no true scotsman fallacy, i need not say more on that.
The last comment on a fully evil and hopeless population is funny also. So the animals were evil? how can something be evil without pre-meditation, is a tiger evil for killing it's prey? the babies were evil? add to the fact that he created these things already knowing the outcome and it's a home run for atheists. God creates man with free will, he doesn't like the choices made with said gift so decides to hit the tilt button. So man's only option is to love god because if we don't he will kill us all. God never even gave them a choice, more like an ultimatum.
I bet those babies thanked god for not allowing them to be corrupted with sin as the waves cast them against the rocks, oh lord thank you for sparing me. Sounds like god doesn't like the possible outcome of free will he can hit the reset button, kinda negates free will no?
How doesn't foreknowledge negate choice? the choice and outcome is already determined, the timing is all that is left.
There's no acrobatics required. I'm just explaining my faith. It's easy to write a few sentences of objections, it's another thing to then reply to the objections....more words are required of me.
No fallacy is committed....it's scripture, it's Christianity, it's the nature of being a believer in God. Just read the scripture I posted. All sorts of people claim to be Christian and so many fail to exhibit any qualities of Christ. Their works do nothing to validate their supposed faith.
Assigning a term to an argument doesn't negate a thing. Folks invent "new logical fallacies" in order to have a reply in an argument. I have no idea what that argument is, but it makes no difference. Hitler clearly demonstrated he did not follow Christ no matter what religious affiliation he claimed. That's all that's needed and it's foundation is outlined in the scripture provided.
As I noted God pronounced judgement on a fully reprobate world. God provided for Noah and the earth exactly what it needed to continue on. Animals weren't punished. Animals are without a soul...they don't offend God. Some animals have some soulish qualities in that they're created to serve mankind via labor, food, sacrifice, clothing, etc..... Man was given dominion over the earth, but ultimately creation and all there is belongs to God.
I've often considered that we have no idea whether or not children of a reprobate society experienced any pain during death via God's judgment.....we simply don't know. Could God have provided a painless death? Absolutely. Do we know this? We do not. What we do know is that those same children exited this life and entered into God's kingdom in eternity. We also know that God is just and as such it's feasible they experienced no pain. You have no concept of eternity or the justice and mercy of God so all you see is death and pain. Had those same babies and children continued on into adulthood they would've adopted the same reprobate behavior, engaged in the same sin, rejected God just like the previous generations and would've been separated from God.
I fully explained foreknowledge, choice, the will of God, etc.....just reread what I wrote. Foreknowledge is knowledge, not predetermined actions set in motion that force us to do one thing or another. Me rewriting all this won't change my answer. I've answered this same objection at least two dozen times in the past. To be fair I realize you did not ask this of me in those two dozen instances, but I often grow weary of repeating things over and over on these boards so please forgive me.
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To me, it seems asinine that Hitler can go to Heaven...this is why I call BS on Christianity...
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So many folks talk about Hitler going to heaven, Pol Pot going to heaven, Stalin going to heaven, Berkowitz, going to heaven, Dahmer going to heaven, Ramirez going to heaven, Osama bin Laden going to heaven, etc....
Let me make this plain: None of these evil, twisted folks are Christians and none are with God in his heaven.
"Yeah but you say if they had become Christians they could go to heaven and all their crimes are forgiven.....that's messed up man!"
They made a clear choice to committ evil...they rejected God.....they will enter eternity separated from God.
"Yeah but some of those guys claimed they were Christians...that God was with them.....that's messed up man!"
Did all their murder, atrocity and evil represent what Christ taught? No. Their works did not align with their claimed faith because their faith was false.
"That's the Garfield and Snoopy fallacy...Christianity is messed up man!"
So I've heard you say.....the ole "Hitler could go to heaven" bit....wow.
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So many folks talk about Hitler going to heaven, Pol Pot going to heaven, Stalin going to heaven, Berkowitz, going to heaven, Dahmer going to heaven, Ramirez going to heaven, Osama bin Laden going to heaven, etc....
Let me make this plain: None of these evil, twisted folks are Christians and none are with God in his heaven.
"Yeah but you say if they had become Christians they could go to heaven and all their crimes are forgiven.....that's messed up man!"
They made a clear choice to committ evil...they rejected God.....they will enter eternity separated from God.
"Yeah but some of those guys claimed they were Christians...that God was with them.....that's messed up man!"
Did all their murder, atrocity and evil represent what Christ taught? No. Their works did not align with their claimed faith because their faith was false.
"That's the Garfield and Snoopy fallacy...Christianity is messed up man!"
So I've heard you say.....the ole "Hitler could go to heaven" bit....wow.
for one, you aren't the judge of that, god is, you have no idea if he repented or not, his relationship with god etc. You aren't the gate keeper for heaven nor are you suppose to even judge others.
it is the no true scotsman fallacy, just like the people that say suicide bombers aren't true muslims, it's all nonsense, the book is up for interpretation. You already said the only unforgivable sin is rejecting god, so how in the same breath can you say Hitler is not in heaven? he clearly accepted christ, his other sins can all be forgiven.
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for one, you aren't the judge of that, god is, you have no idea if he repented or not, his relationship with god etc. You aren't the gate keeper for heaven nor are you suppose to even judge others.
it is the no true scotsman fallacy, just like the people that say suicide bombers aren't true muslims, it's all nonsense, the book is up for interpretation. You already said the only unforgivable sin is rejecting god, so how in the same breath can you say Hitler is not in heaven? he clearly accepted christ, his other sins can all be forgiven.
Ok, there's a number of things I need to address in your post so my response will be longer than your post.
You are correct in that I am not the ultimate judge of whether or not someone ended their life as a Christian or not. Ultimate judgment rests with God...he knows the reality. I also don't have certainty there wasn't a deathbed conversion of some sort. What I do know is the record of works these folks left in their lives does not jive with Christ in anyway whatsoever.
"nor are you suppose to even judge others" - this is a very common misunderstanding of scripture. Many folks have "pocket verses" they memorize....both believers and nonbelievers alike. Common spins on verses I see repeated are "do not judge others...." and "money is the root of evil". Both cited verses are incorrect and incomplete, but we'll stick with the concept of judgment here.
Now, as is common, the verse in Matthew 7 is often split in half and pulled from surrounding context. Here is full passage with the verse commonly cited in red:
Matthew 7:1-6
1 “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged.
2 For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged.
3 “And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own?
4 How can you think of saying to your friend, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye?
5 Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.
6 “Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you.
The vast majority only quote "do not judge others" and stop.....that's it....."Do not judge others! It's in the bible and here you are a Christian passing judgment!"
The idea in the passage is how to appropriately judge others or hold them accountable for their actions.
I'll illustrate with a simple example: don't come to an alcoholic and judge them for their drinking while you're polishing off a bottle of Jack Daniels in front of them. It sets a bad standard LOL.
As believers we are called to hold our fellow believers accountable for their actions. There are standards we are to adhere to and the foundation of those standards is Christ. We are absolutely meant to judge each other, but we do so according to God's standards and not our own. Hitler has claimed affiliation with Christianity yet compiled an almost unprecedented record of murder, torture and evil.....I absolutely judge his works according to God's laws and his "Christian record" falls completely short.
Why we debate this I'm not really sure?
Now, I never once said the unforgivable sin is rejecting God. I did say we have to make a choice to accept or reject God. I also stated that God does not forgive all people. Those that willfully reject Christ (and go to their death in doing so) will not have their sins forgiven.
We clearly know that the notion of rejecting God as the unforgivable sin is false because many have rejected God at some point in their lives and later come to God fully embracing him and desiring a relationship with him. This is the root of true conversion from unbelief to belief and the power of Christ's saving grace.
The unforgivable sin noted in scripture, by Christ, was attributing the works of Holy Spirit to the demonic realm of Satan. After Christ publically healed a demoniac the Pharisees claimed his ability to exorcise the demons was fueled by demons. Christ knew their thoughts and stated the following:
Matthew 12:31-32
31 “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.
Again, the larger context of the passage is to not attribute the things of Holy Spirit to the things of Satan and his demons.....BIG "no no"!
How is it clear that Hitler accepted Christ? Because he said he related to Christians or attended church LOL?!
Evil, twisted men claim all sorts of things in one breath and then violate those same things in another. Hitler apparently claimed Christ in the midst of the murder of millions...that behavior didn't cease nor does it align with Christ. The only certainty we do have about Hitler is that he was a very articulate, intelligent, sick, twisted, evil man.
Accepting Christ isn't about a magical spell....quoting words in certain order accomplishes nothing. God knows the contents of our hearts and can easily discern the fakes from the genuine article. Scripture addresses this topic in a number of places......our works vet our claim of faith in Christ.
Again, as I noted yesterday:
James 2:14-26
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”
19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
21 Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. 24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
25 Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road. 26 Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.