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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: BayGBM on March 17, 2011, 01:35:49 PM
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Crystal Cathedral sex covenant stirs controversy
Choir members at the Crystal Cathedral have been asked to sign a statement that God intends sex only for married heterosexuals.
By Nicole Santa Cruz, Los Angeles Times
The Crystal Cathedral church in Garden Grove is involved in another controversy, this time over a covenant that choir members were asked to sign stating that God intends sex to be between married heterosexuals.
"Crystal Cathedral ministries believes that it is important to teach and model the biblical view," reads the paragraph in the Crystal Cathedral Worship Choir and Worship Team Covenant that has raised the ire of some choir members. "I understand that Crystal Cathedral Ministries teaches that sexual intimacy is intended by God to only be within the bonds of marriage, between one man and one woman."
In a statement Tuesday, Senior Pastor Sheila Schuller Coleman said the covenant is meant to clarify expectations placed on choir members as ministry leaders. But she also offered an apology.
"The church of Jesus Christ at large is grappling with the challenge of reconciling love and adherence to God's word, even those passages that challenge us," she said. "As the church has been engaging in this sensitive dialogue, people that we care for deeply have been hurt. We are sincerelly sorry."
On Wednesday, church founder Robert H. Schuller said he strongly disapproved of the covenant because it goes against what he has built his church upon.
"I have a reputation worldwide of being tolerant of all people and their views," he told the Orange County Register. "I'm too well-educated to criticize a certain religion or group of people for what they believe in. It's called freedom."
The covenant issue is the latest woe for the embattled church, which filed for bankruptcy protection in October. Financial documents related to the bankruptcy case have revealed that relatives and insiders at the church have received hefty payouts and tax allowances.
"In my opinion, I keep thinking that they've made as many mistakes as they can make and they've sank as low as they can sink — and behold, they sink lower," said Don Neuen, who directed the choir for 10 years but resigned in July after Programming Director Gretchen Schuller Penner said she was going to make sure each person was "spiritually and emotionally fit."
He said he believed that meant excluding those who were gay as well as heterosexuals living together out of wedlock.
"I think it's absolutely horrible. It's the antithesis of what Christianity should be," Neuen said. "We should be reaching out and embracing and showing love to all people who are peaceful."
Mindy Kim, a former choir member, said the covenant is an example of how new leadership is eroding the church.
Kim, who sang in the choir for 10 years, said she wouldn't have signed the document.
"The thought of signing it wouldn't even enter into my head," she said. "I would leave."
Church spokesman John Charles said the covenant was not meant to exclude anyone. "We're asking people to follow the teachings of Christianity, and this is what we believe," he said. "We take the biblical view."
"I think [choir members] are taking it as anti-gay when that is not the full intent," he said. "It's anyone who has a promiscuous lifestyle."
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Adam and Eve wasn't married
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Director Gretchen Schuller Penner said she was going to make sure each person was "spiritually and emotionally fit."
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
So she determines who is "fit?" Oh brother.
This lady seems a little unfit in the "love your neighbor" command.
"I think [choir members] are taking it as anti-gay when that is not the full intent," he said. "It's anyone who has a promiscuous lifestyle."
So I guess the singles that are clandestinely promiscuous and the married heteros (or people on the down low) that hide multiple affairs are OK for the choir. ::)
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::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
So she determines who is "fit?" Oh brother.
This lady seems a little unfit in the "love your neighbor" command.
So I guess the singles that are clandestinely promiscuous and the married heteros (or people on the down low) that hide multiple affairs are OK for the choir. ::)
Yes. Exactly! ::)
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::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
So she determines who is "fit?" Oh brother.
This lady seems a little unfit in the "love your neighbor" command.
So I guess the singles that are clandestinely promiscuous and the married heteros (or people on the down low) that hide multiple affairs are OK for the choir. ::)
You're joking right? If you knew anything at all about Christianity you would never have typed this out. Is this some sort of sophomoric soliloquy or what? Was it said to somehow make homosexuals like Bay feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel better about their chosen lifestyle or was it to make you appear to the world at large as a real SNAG, Sensitive New Age Guy?
Do you really want me to answer your question as quoted above? All righty then. As anyone with an IQ above 70 would know, the answer to this incredibly complex question regarding any "singles that are clandestinely promiscuous and the married heteros (or people on the down low) that hide multiple affairs are OK for the choir" is a resounding "no, they are not!"
But you already knew that, didn't you? Of course you did.
The truths of Christ are not hidden unless you close your eyes and choose to write your own bible. I've told you before if I were to believe in anything it would be in the goodness of Jesus and what he and his disciples spoke on. But I choose not to believe that Jesus was anything more than a man, albeit an exceptional man.
As for the originator of this thread, Bay you are one sad little man. You worthless nellie of a bearcub. You could give a shit about Christianity or any genuine followers of Jesus. I'd tell you to go fuck yourself but that would be the equivalent of a dog chasing its tail. You're that dumb, champ. How do I know you're that stupid? You pay for sex with men. Drug enhanced men. Only a sad man pays for sex, be it sex with a woman or even sadder in your case, other men.
Homosexuality is against the natural order of things. Animals may try and fuck each other in the wild, but animals are stupid. Oh wait, by association, homosexuals must be stupid too.Two men cannot make a baby together. Neither can two women. It takes two of the opposite sex, retard. That is nature, that is natural. Homosexuality is despised by all the major faiths/religions of the world, even the Dali Lama is against it. Me? I'm an atheist, and I find homosexuality in men or women to be disgusting and against the natural order of things.
I don't believe in a God, gods, goddesses or a heaven and hell, but I do know that men fucking each other in the ass is disgusting and does not produce children. Neither will a strap-on pounding between two women make babies. You are such a nellie.
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I haven't read her book yet, but I do plan to
http://www.amazon.com/Unprotected-Texts-Bibles-Surprising-Contradictions/dp/0061725587/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300410786&sr=8-1
I'm watching the video now so I can't comment about the content of the entire video, but I think it'll be worth a watch
She's also a baptist minister
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You're joking right? If you knew anything at all about Christianity you would never have typed this out. Is this some sort of sophomoric soliloquy or what? Was it said to somehow make homosexuals like Bay feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel better about their chosen lifestyle or was it to make you appear to the world at large as a real SNAG, Sensitive New Age Guy?
Do you really want me to answer your question as quoted above? All righty then. As anyone with an IQ above 70 would know, the answer to this incredibly complex question regarding any "singles that are clandestinely promiscuous and the married heteros (or people on the down low) that hide multiple affairs are OK for the choir" is a resounding "no, they are not!"
But you already knew that, didn't you? Of course you did.
While I've agreed w/many of your past posts, your response here makes me think perhaps you've misunderstood my post in this thread...maybe not though...maybe we just disagree.
My point is that there is a person in this situation who feels she is the judge and jury to determine who is emotionally and spiritually fit to serve in a choir and makes those people sign an opinion sheet about sex in order to sing.
I wonder what makes her think that she is in a position to judge who is emotionally and spiritually fit to sing songs in front of the church? If there were openly gay people in the choir and she felt it was wrong, why make everyone in the choir sign an opinion on gay vs. hetero sex? Why not just ask the person to step down?
Choir members are not considered "leaders" in church in my opinion. They are not "preaching" nor delivering a message to the congregation. They sing songs/hymns.
If, on the other hand, the people are concerned about someone who is in a leadership position..for instance, someone who will be preaching to the congregation or even a small group class and that person goes against what the bible says, that is a different story. That person should not be in a position of leadership imo.
Also, what does making people in the choir sign an opinion on sex have to do with anything?
Is she making them sign something regarding idolatry, lying, theft, murder etc. as well? If so, the article didn't state that. So what is her motive here? If it's a gay dude in the choir and that's frowned upon, ask them to step down. If it's someone openly promiscuous ask them to step down.
And do it in private. Making singers sign an opinion on sex in order to sing seems like a passive aggressive way to get someone out.
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Butterbean, you are not "emotionally and spiritually fit." So, you are fired! ::)
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Butterbean, you are not "emotionally and spiritually fit." ! ::)
Haha ;D I already knew that! :-[
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Butterbean, you are not "emotionally and spiritually fit." So, you are fired! ::)
You smoke the wang and take it up the butt. You pay for sex with men. That's fucking gross, ergo...You're stupid.
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Haha ;D I already knew that! :-[
Butterbean, just what do you know? With regard to Christianity. What do you know? Are you a genuine believer or just a SNAG wannabe? Remember who you're talking to as I've more than enough knowledge of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. If you feel more comfortable sending me a PM, by all means do so.
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Butterbean, just what do you know? With regard to Christianity. What do you know? Are you a genuine believer or just a SNAG wannabe? Remember who you're talking to as I've more than enough knowledge of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. If you feel more comfortable sending me a PM, by all means do so.
I see your definition of SNAG is Sensitive New Age Guy. I'm not New Age, I'm not a guy, but I have been known to be sensitive.
Yes, I am a genuine believer.
Oh when I first read your post I thought you wanted me to PM you but then I re-read your post. I did send a PM but we don't need to PM unless you want to. Either way I am comfortable.
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I agree with that woman wholeheartedly. God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!
Also, Penguin lust is immoral. God created Adam and Eve, not Penny and Poppy the penguin!
I am completely against promiscuity unless I'm the one being promiscuous.
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Adam and Eve wasn't married
Gen 2:25
Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
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I see your definition of SNAG is Sensitive New Age Guy. I'm not New Age, I'm not a guy, but I have been known to be sensitive.
Yes, I am a genuine believer.
Oh when I first read your post I thought you wanted me to PM you but then I re-read your post. I did send a PM but we don't need to PM unless you want to. Either way I am comfortable.
Then Sensitive New Age Girl. You are either a believer or not. One cannot serve two masters. You have heard of this, no?
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Then Sensitive New Age Girl. You are either a believer or not. One cannot serve two masters. You have heard of this, no?
zip it, pixie.
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zip it, pixie.
Careful big man, or I'll sprinkle some pixie dust on you and the next thing you know Bay will be at your door. Hopefully not your back door. Later kid. ;D
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Then Sensitive New Age Girl. You are either a believer or not. One cannot serve two masters. You have heard of this, no?
What 2 masters are you talking about in this situation?
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What 2 masters are you talking about in this situation?
What you hold true and the possibility of "offending" those that do not believe.
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What you hold true and the possibility of "offending" those that do not believe.
What's the trouble? The thing that stands out to me in the article is a woman who believes she is able to determine who is spiritually and emotionally fit by making people sign an opinion on sex in order to sing in the choir. Are you more focused that I didn't condemn homosexuality in this thread or something? That is not the main issue of the article as I see it...at least not to me.
If open homosexuals are not to be singing in the choir and that's a policy (spoken, written, unspoken, whatever) of the church, the way this woman went about it is lame imo.
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...If open homosexuals are not to be singing in the choir and that's a policy (spoken, written, unspoken, whatever) of the church, the way this woman went about it is lame imo.
Come now, if you don't know and recognize that homosexuality is anathema to Christendom, then you are a fool indeed. If you know Christ, you would already know this. Even an atheist such as I knows the doctrine and Gospel of Jesus of Nazareth.
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What's the trouble? The thing that stands out to me in the article is a woman who believes she is able to determine who is spiritually and emotionally fit by making people sign an opinion on sex in order to sing in the choir. Are you more focused that I didn't condemn homosexuality in this thread or something? That is not the main issue of the article as I see it...at least not to me.
If open homosexuals are not to be singing in the choir and that's a policy (spoken, written, unspoken, whatever) of the church, the way this woman went about it is lame imo.
You are not spiritually and emotionally fit! You can't sing in her choir! >:(
Can you imagine anyone trying to apply this "test" for employment anywhere? And the gall of this woman to think she is the one to judge. ;D
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Come now, if you don't know and recognize that homosexuality is anathema to Christendom, then you are a fool indeed. If you know Christ, you would already know this. Even an atheist such as I knows the doctrine and Gospel of Jesus of Nazareth.
Of course the bible states that engaging in homosexual behavior is sinful. Of course I know that.
Like I said, that's not what this article was about....at least not to me.
You are not spiritually and emotionally fit! You can't sing in her choir! >:(
Can you imagine anyone trying to apply this "test" for employment anywhere? And the gall of this woman to think she is the one to judge. ;D
Yes, I think it's pretty probable she has her own sin issues as does everyone. Some are very disciplined and able to live purer lives than others, but none are perfect.
If the policy is no open gays or promiscuous heteros or gays in the choir, just address it directly imo.
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You are not spiritually and emotionally fit! You can't sing in her choir! >:(
Can you imagine anyone trying to apply this "test" for employment anywhere? And the gall of this woman to think she is the one to judge. ;D
So speaks the priapic pinhead. Why pray tell, would you, a confirmed, self avowed root chewing bottom boy want to sing to the glory of a god, least of all the Judeo-Christian God? You just want acceptance of your chosen perversion, that's why. Fuck that noise, Boo Boo (i.e., bear cub).
You can't stand people that smoke cigarettes and wouldn't want to hire anyone that does and yet you smoke the wang. Go kneel at the alter of Pirapus, little man.
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Of course the bible states that engaging in homosexual behavior is sinful. Of course I know that.
Like I said, that's not what this article was about....at least not to me.
So what's it all about, Alfie? No...Really. What does this article mean to you as a genuine follower of the Christ? Remember to whom you are replying. One that knows the faith you profess and will compare it to your answer(s).
And as always, fuck islam.
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Crystal Cathedral sex covenant stirs controversy
Choir members at the Crystal Cathedral have been asked to sign a statement that God intends sex only for married heterosexuals.
By Nicole Santa Cruz, Los Angeles Times
The Crystal Cathedral church in Garden Grove is involved in another controversy, this time over a covenant that choir members were asked to sign stating that God intends sex to be between married heterosexuals.
"Crystal Cathedral ministries believes that it is important to teach and model the biblical view," reads the paragraph in the Crystal Cathedral Worship Choir and Worship Team Covenant that has raised the ire of some choir members. "I understand that Crystal Cathedral Ministries teaches that sexual intimacy is intended by God to only be within the bonds of marriage, between one man and one woman."
In a statement Tuesday, Senior Pastor Sheila Schuller Coleman said the covenant is meant to clarify expectations placed on choir members as ministry leaders. But she also offered an apology.
"The church of Jesus Christ at large is grappling with the challenge of reconciling love and adherence to God's word, even those passages that challenge us," she said. "As the church has been engaging in this sensitive dialogue, people that we care for deeply have been hurt. We are sincerelly sorry."
On Wednesday, church founder Robert H. Schuller said he strongly disapproved of the covenant because it goes against what he has built his church upon.
"I have a reputation worldwide of being tolerant of all people and their views," he told the Orange County Register. "I'm too well-educated to criticize a certain religion or group of people for what they believe in. It's called freedom."
The covenant issue is the latest woe for the embattled church, which filed for bankruptcy protection in October. Financial documents related to the bankruptcy case have revealed that relatives and insiders at the church have received hefty payouts and tax allowances.
"In my opinion, I keep thinking that they've made as many mistakes as they can make and they've sank as low as they can sink — and behold, they sink lower," said Don Neuen, who directed the choir for 10 years but resigned in July after Programming Director Gretchen Schuller Penner said she was going to make sure each person was "spiritually and emotionally fit."
He said he believed that meant excluding those who were gay as well as heterosexuals living together out of wedlock.
"I think it's absolutely horrible. It's the antithesis of what Christianity should be," Neuen said. "We should be reaching out and embracing and showing love to all people who are peaceful."
Mindy Kim, a former choir member, said the covenant is an example of how new leadership is eroding the church.
Kim, who sang in the choir for 10 years, said she wouldn't have signed the document.
"The thought of signing it wouldn't even enter into my head," she said. "I would leave."
Church spokesman John Charles said the covenant was not meant to exclude anyone. "We're asking people to follow the teachings of Christianity, and this is what we believe," he said. "We take the biblical view."
"I think [choir members] are taking it as anti-gay when that is not the full intent," he said. "It's anyone who has a promiscuous lifestyle."
Stellar rack on that broad.
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Remember to whom you are replying. One that knows the faith you profess and will compare it to your answer(s).
lol Oh no, I hope I don't get "pwned!"
So what's it all about, Alfie? No...Really. What does this article mean to you as a genuine follower of the Christ?
I've already posted it twice.
You really need me to post it again?
**** that noise.
:D
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lol Oh no, I hope I don't get "pwned!"
I've already posted it twice.
You really need me to post it again?
**** that noise.
:D
Sweeeeeeeeet. ;D ;D Here, let me help you out by "cleaning" it up a bit. Intercourse that noise.
How's that work for you? And just so you know its really me, intercourse islam. ;) Later.
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Sweeeeeeeeet. ;D ;D Here, let me help you out by "cleaning" it up a bit. Intercourse that noise.
lol ;D Tried to think of a way to customize it, including the "Reeves" name..but couldn't think of anything clever.
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Rev. Robert H. Schuller voted off Crystal Cathedral board
The Rev. Robert H. Schuller has been ousted from the board of directors at the Crystal Cathedral, the Orange County megachurch he built into a televised empire after getting his start preaching from the roof of a drive-in theater, his son said Sunday night.
Schuller, 84, stepped down from the pulpit five years ago and had long before ceded day-to-day control of the Garden Grove ministry, largely to his children and other relatives.
There were conflicting reports about what had taken place between Schuller and the board members. But Robert Anthony Schuller said his father was ousted because he had proposed adding new members to the board, which he described as blighted by conflicts of interest.
"My father wanted to add board members, and they didn't want that because they would lose control," said the younger Schuller, who was himself voted off the board three years ago. "They kicked him off. ... I feel bad for him because he's had to watch his life's work go down the toilet the last three years."
The elder Schuller, who had been a non-voting but influential member of the board with the title chairman emeritus, could not be reached for comment.
Jim Coleman, president of Crystal Cathedral and the husband of Robert H. Schuller’s daughter, declined to comment when reached by telephone Sunday night. His wife, Sheila Schuller Coleman, took control of the church more than two years ago, marking a family schism that has dogged the ministry, culminating in its bankruptcy.
Several longtime church members and officials said Sunday that they found Robert H. Schuller’s departure from the board startling -- and an unsettling reminder that the church’s leadership and finances are in chaos.
"It’s an unusual thing," said Jim Case, a former board member who also confirmed Schuller’s ouster. "It surprises me." He said the board’s decision was part of an ongoing "power grab."
Dory Bauler, 82, of Laguna Woods, has been a church member since 1972. She called the news of Schuller's departure, "the most heartbreaking thing in the world."
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Rev. Robert H. Schuller voted off Crystal Cathedral board
The Rev. Robert H. Schuller has been ousted from the board of directors at the Crystal Cathedral, the Orange County megachurch he built into a televised empire after getting his start preaching from the roof of a drive-in theater, his son said Sunday night.
Schuller, 84, stepped down from the pulpit five years ago and had long before ceded day-to-day control of the Garden Grove ministry, largely to his children and other relatives.
There were conflicting reports about what had taken place between Schuller and the board members. But Robert Anthony Schuller said his father was ousted because he had proposed adding new members to the board, which he described as blighted by conflicts of interest.
"My father wanted to add board members, and they didn't want that because they would lose control," said the younger Schuller, who was himself voted off the board three years ago. "They kicked him off. ... I feel bad for him because he's had to watch his life's work go down the toilet the last three years."
The elder Schuller, who had been a non-voting but influential member of the board with the title chairman emeritus, could not be reached for comment.
Jim Coleman, president of Crystal Cathedral and the husband of Robert H. Schuller’s daughter, declined to comment when reached by telephone Sunday night. His wife, Sheila Schuller Coleman, took control of the church more than two years ago, marking a family schism that has dogged the ministry, culminating in its bankruptcy.
Several longtime church members and officials said Sunday that they found Robert H. Schuller’s departure from the board startling -- and an unsettling reminder that the church’s leadership and finances are in chaos.
"It’s an unusual thing," said Jim Case, a former board member who also confirmed Schuller’s ouster. "It surprises me." He said the board’s decision was part of an ongoing "power grab."
Dory Bauler, 82, of Laguna Woods, has been a church member since 1972. She called the news of Schuller's departure, "the most heartbreaking thing in the world."
How do you get booted from your own church?
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after Fred Swann left as organist it has gone down hill, musically speaking.
and it has a world famous pipe organ....what a waste.
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Robert H. Schuller, wife resign from Crystal Cathedral board
The action stems from a breakdown in talks over financial claims against the church that the Schullers filed in Bankruptcy Court. For the first time in its history, there is no Schuller on the board.
By Nicole Santa Cruz and Howard Blume, Los Angeles Times
Embroiled in a legal dispute with the church he founded, Robert H. Schuller and his wife have resigned from the international board of the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove.
The resignations are a result of a breakdown in negotiations over financial claims against the church that the Schullers filed in Bankruptcy Court.
Schuller; his wife, Arvella; their daughter Carol Schuller Milner; and her husband, Timothy Milner, allege that the church owes them money for copyright infringement, intellectual property violations and unpaid contracts.
"We cannot continue to serve on the board in what has become an adversarial and negative atmosphere especially since it now seems that it will not be ending any time soon," Arvella Schuller said in a statement Saturday.
Sorting through competing financial claims has delayed $12.5 million in payments to some church creditors and could threaten the church's ability to continue its ministries, including the "Hour of Power" broadcasts.
The Schullers' resignation marks the end of an era. For the first time, no family member is serving on the board of the church that Robert Schuller founded 42 years ago.
The financially ailing church sold the Crystal Cathedral campus to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange in February for $57.5 million. Payment to creditors was expected this spring, but because some claims are for unknown amounts and the Milners and Schullers have not agreed to establish a payment reserve, vendors cannot be paid until those amounts are determined by the court, said Nanette Sanders, attorney for the creditors.
The Schuller family insisted Saturday that they did not want to delay payments to creditors. They blamed the current church leadership for halting discussions.
The family received word Tuesday that there would be no further negotiations, Carol Schuller Milner said.
"This could be a long deal," she said in an interview Saturday. "That's why we feel bad for the creditors too."
"We've been hoping there was another way," Schuller Milner said. "It will continue to be a long and probably painful time."
She added that her parents were "baffled" by the breakdown in talks.
A spokesman for the church was not immediately available to respond, but its board has generally sided with the committee of creditors, which has filed objections to the Schuller and Milner claims.
The creditors committee has alleged that the church ministry, of which family members are a part, has borrowed money from an endowment fund and continued to receive generous salaries and perks even as the church struggled financially.
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Schuller, family to be paid a fraction of millions they sought
The court gives the family slightly less than $700,000. The daughter of the Crystal Cathedral founder describes the ruling on intellectual property, copyright infringement and contract violations as a 'travesty.'
By Nicole Santa Cruz, Los Angeles Times
Robert H. Schuller — the founder of Crystal Cathedral and the face of the globally watched "Hour of Power" television program — and his family will be paid just a fraction of the millions they sought from the preacher's bankrupt ministry.
Schuller's daughter, Carol Milner, described Monday's ruling on intellectual property, copyright infringement and contract violations as a "travesty" that leaves the family no choice but to "start liquidating everything."
"It's an avoidance of responsibility for an organization to not take care of those who have gone before them. It's tragic," she said. "But sometimes tragedies speak louder than other stories."
Schuller alone had sought $5 million, and additional claims from the family — some that did not state specific amounts — would have pushed the family's demand far higher. The court gave the family slightly less than $700,000.
The ruling marks a final chapter in the financial unraveling of a ministry that once made Schuller a powerhouse in American Christianity.
The bankruptcy was "long and painful for everyone involved, and our congregation is ready to move on," said John Charles, the chief executive of Crystal Cathedral.
The ministry, which is now estranged from Schuller and has struggled to fill collection plates, will vacate the glass-panned cathedral in Garden Grove next summer and hold services in a Catholic church.
Monday's ruling out of Los Angeles bankruptcy court also clears the way for Crystal Cathedral's remaining creditors — some of them small-time vendors who helped stage the church's opulent Christmas and Easter services — to collect on more than $12 million they claim they are owed by the Garden Grove-based ministry.
Because of the Schuller family claims, creditors were delayed payments. Now the creditors could be paid off before the end of the year, said Nannette Sanders, an attorney who worked on the case.
"It's the result we had hoped for," Sanders said.
Other creditors chose not to wait for the closure of the 2010 bankruptcy, and some — such as the Riverside County business that provided the camels, donkeys and sheep for the church's Christmas pageant — have sold their claims to firms that purchase debt.
Wes Lassen, a contractor from Running Springs who is owed about $2,100 for services he performed three years ago, said the money will help him "substantially."
"It might actually keep me in business another year," he said.
The ruling cut short a10-day trial focused on unpaid contracts and copyright infringement claims filed by Schuller, his wife, Arbela, his daughter and his son-in-law.
Judge Robert N. Kwa wrote that Schuller will receive about $600,000 because he failed to prove that intellectual property and copyright violations took place. Less than $100,000 will be divided by other family members.
As attorneys read the lengthy ruling in court Monday, Schuller and his wife held hands and waited silently.
In the 55-page ruling, Kwa referenced Schuller's testimony earlier this month in which the pastor, 86, said that the Crystal Cathedral never infringed on his intellectual property rights. Schuller appeared to not remember when he founded the "Hour of Power" and also said he was still on the board of directors for the Crystal Cathedral.
The ministry, once known for its showy services and uplifting sermons, filed for bankruptcy protection in 2010, citing $50 million in debt.
The claims led to Schuller and his wife's resignation from the ministry's board of directors. Within days, his daughter, then the senior pastor, left the church to start her own ministry, effectively severing all ties that the founding family had to the church.
"We love the Schullers and wish them well," Charles said.
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Adam and Eve wasn't married
and they only had sons
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their magnificent pipe organ is worth more than that, alone. Plus their music library.
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and they only had sons
Gen 5:3-5
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
PIP Reeves
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Gen 5:3-5
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
PIP Reeves
ok I did not know that, so who was Seths mother?
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ok I did not know that, so who was Seths mother?
Eve
Gen 4:25
Adam made love to his wife again and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.”
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Eve
Gen 4:25
Adam made love to his wife again and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.”
thanks for that, again i didnt know that but
so Adam and Eve started out having two sons, one killed the other so they (adam and eve) copulated again to aquire another son. Im still trying to make the jump to the next generation ... can you enlighten me further because its centuries yet before imaculate conception and virgin birth become available ?
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thanks for that, again i didnt know that but
so Adam and Eve started out having two sons, one killed the other so they (adam and eve) copulated again to aquire another son. Im still trying to make the jump to the next generation ... can you enlighten me further because its centuries yet before imaculate conception and virgin birth become available ?
I think this is what you mean?:
Through Mary's lineage:
Luke 3:23-38
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,
the son of Josek, the son of Joda,
27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,
the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melki,
the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse,
the son of Obed, the son of Boaz,
the son of Salmon,[d] the son of Nahshon,
33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,[e]
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu,
the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,
the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan,
the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,
the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.
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Through Joseph's lineage starting w/Abraham (I think Matthew was written to the Jews so it was important to show them the Messiah came from Abraham):
Matthew1:1-17
This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4 Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,
Abihud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Elihud,
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.
17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.
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and they only had sons
actually what I am asking is how if Adam & Eve were the first humans and they that two/ three sons who did those two sons have sex with to continue the human race
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actually what I am asking is how if Adam & Eve were the first humans and they that two/ three sons who did those two sons have sex with to continue the human race
please.
it's a biblical story.
the point isn't to be literal.
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please.
it's a biblical story.
the point isn't to be literal.
perhaps but so many people quote it as literal when it suits their opinion
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actually what I am asking is how if Adam & Eve were the first humans and they that two/ three sons who did those two sons have sex with to continue the human race
Their sisters.
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Their sisters.
thank you
incest the game all the family can play with Gods blessing ?
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Through Joseph's lineage starting w/Abraham (I think Matthew was written to the Jews so it was important to show them the Messiah came from Abraham):
Matthew1:1-17
This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4 Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,
Abihud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Elihud,
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.
17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.
From the bold text are you admitting a contradiction in the bible based on different personal motivations among its writers? (in the case of Matthew trying to please Jews)?
Also, while your explanation can make sense as to why Matthew would try to teach that the Messiah came from Abraham, why is it that Abraham aside hardly any of the names in the two lineages agree (in Matthew vs. Luke)?
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From the bold text are you admitting a contradiction in the bible based on different personal motivations among its writers? (in the case of Matthew trying to please Jews)?
Also, while your explanation can make sense as to why Matthew would try to teach that the Messiah came from Abraham, why is it that Abraham aside hardly any of the names in the two lineages agree (in Matthew vs. Luke)?
I just finished a book that addresses everything you note here. It was midway through the book so I'll locate the passage and post it here....thx!!
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Homosexuality is against the natural order of things. Animals may try and fuck each other in the wild, but animals are stupid.
I see. It's against the natural order of things, but when animals do it that doesn't prove your statement wrong. It just proves that animals are "stupid." ::)
Oh wait, by association, homosexuals must be stupid too.
Well, they do talk with that funny lisp. So clearly! ::)
Two men cannot make a baby together. Neither can two women. It takes two of the opposite sex, retard. That is nature, that is natural.
Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You are asserting that the only legitimate use of sex is procreation, and it should be used only for that purpose. Right? So if a woman has her ovaries removed because of cancer, no sex for her. If a man has a vasectomy or has his testicles removed because of cancer, no sex for him. After all, a woman without ovaries can't conceive, and a many without testicles can't impregnate a woman.
Why isn't sex for the sake of sex (i.e. for the pleasure derived from it) acceptable in your view?
Homosexuality is despised by all the major faiths/religions of the world, even the Dali Lama is against it.
And your point is?
Me? I'm an atheist, and I find homosexuality in men or women to be disgusting and against the natural order of things.
Why are you giving us your opinion on the subject? Why should we care what some random idiot posting online thinks about sex in general and homosexuality in particular?
I don't believe in a God, gods, goddesses or a heaven and hell, but I do know that men fucking each other in the ass is disgusting and does not produce children.
OK, and? Why is your lack of belief in deities, heaven and hell relevant? Who cares what you find icky? Who cares what does or doesn't produce children? Why do you care about what other men do with their cock and where they deposit their sperm?
Neither will a strap-on pounding between two women make babies.
Well now, let's not be hasty. That might work. They could dip the strap-on in a cup of man-juice from their friendly neighborhood sperm bank before the pounding.
You are such a nellie.
That sounds just like what I'd expect a nellie to say. Are you sure you aren't frustrated because your various holes aren't getting the attention they so sorely need? (pun intended)
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avxo, Reeves died earlier this year.
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actually what I am asking is how if Adam & Eve were the first humans and they that two/ three sons who did those two sons have sex with to continue the human race
Some people believe that there were other people on earth in those days and that they propagated w/them.
But I think they did have sex w/their sisters, nieces, cousins, etc.
In fact I think Sarah was Abraham's half sister.
Apparently, blood lines were more pure back before sin infiltrated the earth more and more so there was less of an issue of physical problems resulting from "inbreeding."
And as you saw, Adam lived over 900 years and had many sons and daughters...and those sons and daughters had many sons and daughters etc, etc.
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From the bold text are you admitting a contradiction in the bible based on different personal motivations among its writers? (in the case of Matthew trying to please Jews)?
Also, while your explanation can make sense as to why Matthew would try to teach that the Messiah came from Abraham, why is it that Abraham aside hardly any of the names in the two lineages agree (in Matthew vs. Luke)?
I don't see a contradiction? Matthew shows the lineages of Jesus' earthly "father (Joseph)," and Luke shows His lineage through to Mary.
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I don't see a contradiction? Matthew shows the lineages of Jesus' earthly "father (Joseph)," and Luke shows His lineage through to Mary.
They both contain Jesus' "earthly father" Joseph, but in Matthew Joseph's father is Jacob, while in Luke Joseph's father is Heli. Still don't see a contradiction? Was Joseph's father Jacob or Heli?
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They both contain Jesus' "earthly father" Joseph, but in Matthew Joseph's father is Jacob, while in Luke Joseph's father is Heli. Still don't see a contradiction? Was Joseph's father Jacob or Heli?
I just finished a book that addresses everything you note here. It was midway through the book so I'll locate the passage and post it here....thx!!
Forgot to find this last night....I'll try again tonight.
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Forgot to find this last night....I'll try again tonight.
Cool, thanks.
I imagine if the contradiction were a simple oversight on my part it would be a quick reply/rebuttal from you or Butterbean explaining so. From experience I find when the explanation for a contradiction takes research and time to come up with, it most often results in forcing an unlikely interpretation to fit with what one wants to believe, rather than what a rational likely interpretation may be.
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avxo, Reeves died earlier this year.
This is getbig... You think we let something as trivial as death interfere?
But in all seriousness, I didn't know; frankly I didn't even realize how old the post I was quoting was.
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They both contain Jesus' "earthly father" Joseph, but in Matthew Joseph's father is Jacob, while in Luke Joseph's father is Heli. Still don't see a contradiction? Was Joseph's father Jacob or Heli?
Heli was Joseph's Father-in-Law.
More of an explanation from gotquestions.org:
Matthew is following the line of Joseph (Jesus’ legal father), through David’s son Solomon, while Luke is following the line of Mary (Jesus’ blood relative), though David’s son Nathan. There was no Greek word for “son-in-law,” and Joseph would have been considered a son of Heli through marrying Heli's daughter Mary. Through either line, Jesus is a descendant of David and therefore eligible to be the Messiah.
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This is getbig... You think we let something as trivial as death interfere?
.
I think Reeves would probably have liked this post ;D
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Heli was Joseph's Father-in-Law.
More of an explanation from gotquestions.org:
Matthew is following the line of Joseph (Jesus’ legal father), through David’s son Solomon, while Luke is following the line of Mary (Jesus’ blood relative), though David’s son Nathan. There was no Greek word for “son-in-law,” and Joseph would have been considered a son of Heli through marrying Heli's daughter Mary. Through either line, Jesus is a descendant of David and therefore eligible to be the Messiah.
I do appreciate the explanation, however even if there was no Greek word for son-in-law, Luke could have very easily communicated that Joseph is Heli's son through marriage to Mary, not simply call Joseph the son of Heli. Just because there is no exact word does not mean there was no way to communicate it.
Simply assuming that Heli must have been Mary's father without any other scriptural evidence is simply choosing an unlikely interpretation in an attempt to avoid admitting a contradiction.
Besides, many Christians say Mary's father was Joachim.
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Rev. Robert H. Schuller, who built Crystal Cathedral, dies at 88
BY WILLIAM LOBDELL AND MITCHELL LANDSBERG
The Rev. Robert H. Schuller, who built the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove as the embodiment of an upbeat, modern vision of Christianity, only to see his ministry shattered by family discord and financial ruin, has died. He was 88.
Schuller, who was diagnosed with esophageal cancer in 2013, died Thursday morning at a skilled nursing facility in Artesia, his daughter Carol Milner said.
After a working life of great success and influence, Schuller was forced to watch from retirement as much of what he built was laid to waste. In October 2010, his church, then led by his daughter, Sheila Schuller Coleman, declared bankruptcy. That led to the sale of the cathedral and surrounding property to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange in February 2012.
Changing tastes, financial overreach and squabbling over a successor were factors in the collapse. Schuller had turned over his pulpit first to his son, Robert A. Schuller, and then to Coleman. In March 2010, he and his wife, Arvella, formally cut ties to the ministry they had founded, bemoaning the "negative and adversarial atmosphere" enveloping the church's leadership.
It was an ignominious end to what had been one of the greatest success stories of postwar American Christianity.
The silver-haired evangelist rose from humble beginnings — he held his first Sunday service at a drive-in movie theater in Orange, preaching atop a snack bar — to become one of the late 20th century's most recognized religious figures.
He created the weekly "Hour of Power" television show that at its peak popularity attracted an international audience of millions, wrote dozens of books with titles such as "Turning Hurts Into Halos" and "If It's Going to Be, It's Up to Me," and built a 40-acre church campus with buildings so striking that the American Institute of Architects gave him its first lifetime achievement award in 2001.
Schuller's popularity rested in his avuncular public manner, tireless energy and unique approach to Christianity that blended pop psychology, unbridled optimism and the Gospel. Offering an alternative to the fire-and-brimstone preacher, Schuller taught that believing in Jesus Christ — along with the power of "possibility thinking" — provided the keys to leading a successful and fulfilling life.
Schuller's ability to think big — and his knack for satisfying congregants' spiritual hunger in practical ways — led to the creation of one of the world's first seeker-sensitive megachurches, drawing 10,000 people to its membership rolls and attracting worldwide television audiences of an estimated 30 million for its Sunday services.
"Find a need and fill it, find a hurt and heal it" was the church's mission.
A generation of megachurch pastors was influenced by Schuller's approach, including bestselling authors Rick Warren of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest and Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Community Church near Chicago. Although those pastors and others attracted new generations of churchgoers, Schuller's audience mostly aged with him.
"Robert Schuller was one of the original pioneers of the megachurch movement," said Donald E. Miller, executive director of the Center for Religion and Civic Culture at USC. "However, his message of positive thinking became frozen in time — appealing to an aging audience of adults, but never really connected to the post-boomer generation."
One of Schuller's legacies is the Crystal Cathedral — since renamed Christ Cathedral — a Philip Johnson-designed structure made of steel and 10,000 panes of glass. Using the pastor's desire for an open-air worship space as inspiration, Johnson created a building where congregants could feel connected to God by gazing out the 12-story-high glass walls and ceiling to view the sky, clouds, trees and birds. Completed in 1980, it cost $20 million to build.
"The Crystal Cathedral is not an attempt to be an architectural ego-statement," Schuller said in a 1997 interview with the American Academy of Achievement. "It's probably the ultimate spiritual and psychological statement that could be made in architectural terms."
Until money problems surfaced at the Crystal Cathedral, Schuller had steered clear of the scandals that led to the downfall of other televangelists. But he did receive a steady stream of criticism from some Christians — including those within his denomination — for his downplaying of sin, tying popular psychology too closely to the Gospel and constructing a series of world-class buildings with millions of dollars that could have been spent on the poor.
The church's bankruptcy filing ultimately revealed a pattern of lavish spending, including generous salaries and benefits for Schuller family members on the church staff. With the congregation aging and donations dwindling, Schuller's ministry could not be sustained.
Born near Alton, Iowa, on Sept. 16, 1926, Schuller was the fifth child of Dutch immigrant parents who lived in a farmhouse without electricity or plumbing. Schuller said he first knew he wanted to be a pastor at age 4 after his missionary uncle returned from China and predicted that was his destiny. Each evening for the next 20 years, Schuller said he prayed to God to become a pastor.
In addition, many days "I would stand in my solitude on the hills by the river, preaching to an imaginary congregation, imitating the sounds and gestures of a seasoned preacher," Schuller wrote.
Nonathletic and overweight as a child, Schuller gained confidence by singing in a high school quartet that won the Iowa state championships. Later, while in college, he competed in a tournament in California, a state whose geography wowed him. He vowed to return someday.
A graduate of Hope College in Holland, Mich., Schuller fell in love with an 18-year-old church organist, Arvella DeHann, while attending nearby Western Theology Seminary. During a three-week period in 1950, he graduated from the seminary, married and was ordained by the Reformed Church in America, a Protestant denomination with roots in the Calvinist Reformation of the 1500s.
Schuller began a five-year stint as a pastor of a Chicago church and discovered the power of delivering simple, positive sermons that spoke to congregants' everyday lives.
"Miraculously, lives in our tiny congregation began to transform," Schuller wrote in his biography. "The congregation began to grow.... I realized that every sermon I preached should be designed not to 'teach' or 'convert' people, but rather to encourage them, to give them a lift. I decided to adopt the spirit, style, strategy and substance of a 'therapist' in the pulpit."
In 1955, Schuller — with $500, his wife and two babies — headed to Orange County to start a church. Finding no available worship space, he rented the Orange Drive-In theater for $10 a week and began preaching atop the snack bar. His wife was the organist.
During the first service, with a few dozen people seated in cars before him, he announced, "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, 'With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.' "
The first weekly collection added up to $83.75.
Holding church services in such a secular setting brought a wave of criticism upon Schuller, including a call from a fellow Reformed Church pastor enraged that the congregation met in the "passion pit" of a drive-in theater where ungodly acts happened.
Nevertheless, the drive-in church grew quickly, with congregants often arriving in their pajamas and listening to the service through tinny speakers clipped to the inside of their car windows.
A fan of Norman Vincent Peale, Schuller invited the author of "The Power of Positive Thinking" to his drive-in church, beginning a decades-long friendship.
"I built my church on Easter services, Christmas Eve services and Norman Vincent Peale," Schuller would often say.
In 1961, architect Richard Neutra designed for Schuller the world's first "walk-in-drive-in" church building in Garden Grove. The controversial $5-million structure — deemed undignified by some — caused 40 members of his congregation, including some of the leadership, to leave in protest. They also had grown uneasy with Schuller's messages because he didn't preach enough from the Bible.
The rift, according to early Schuller biographers and friends Mike and Donna Nason, caused the pastor to be so "haunted" by "the fear of failure" that he became paranoid, temperamental and even feared that he was losing his mind.
They describe Schuller as "a broken man … his hair turned prematurely gray practically overnight."
Despite the controversy, the church continued to grow so rapidly that Schuller was able to set up the Institute for Successful Church Leadership, which is credited, by some, for launching the megachurch movement. Pastors from around the country came to Garden Grove to learn Schuller's secrets, which included providing ample parking and going door-to-door asking nearby residents what they would like in a church.
In 1970, Schuller became the first pastor to televise his weekly services. The "Hour of Power" program remains on the air today, featuring Schuller's grandson Bobby. The show is broadcast on cable TV and locally on KTLA Channel 5 and streamed on the Internet.
The television show also raised the pastor's national profile and set the stage for building the 3,000-seat Crystal Cathedral.
The Crystal Cathedral, dedicated in 1980, soon became a draw for a variety of activities and entertainers — the list became secular enough that state officials deemed the venue too much of a commercial venture and temporarily stripped the property of its tax exemption. In the end, Schuller paid only part of the back taxes the state sought and was again declared a tax-exempt church.
By 1987, the scandals that had engulfed Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker created fundraising shortfalls for other televangelists, including Schuller. His "Hour of Power" and ministry were forced to make major budget cuts and layoffs. But the church was able to rebound.
In 1989, before the Iron Curtain fell, Schuller became the first pastor to preach on television in the Soviet Union.
As a sign of its influence, five U.S. presidents made appearances on the 1,000th "Hour of Power" show in 1990.
Away from the pulpit, Schuller was often quick-tempered and controlling. In a lengthy Times profile in 1983, Bella Stumbo wrote that privately the pastor — "particularly among strangers but even around his faithful staff, friends and wife — is often surprisingly aloof, stiff and uncomfortable, sullen and sour at times, defensive at others. In conversation, he is perpetually dominant, both condescending and pedantic. He displays not the slightest trace of spontaneous humor, rarely smiles and never seems to laugh."
In 1997, Schuller's temper became public after he "aggressively" grabbed a flight attendant by the shoulders in a dispute over service in first class. The pastor was charged with misdemeanor assault on a flight attendant but avoided a trial by apologizing, paying a $1,100 fine and agreeing to six months of supervision by a federal case officer.
In the 21st century, Schuller put the finishing touches on his church campus, adding a $40-million International Center for Possibility Thinking, designed by Getty Center architect Richard Meier. It served as a visitors' center and was included in the sale to the Catholic Church.
Schuller's wife, Arvella, died last year. He is survived by their son Robert Anthony and daughters Sheila Coleman, Jeanne Dunn, Carol Milner and Gretchen Penner; and 19 grandchildren and nine great-grandchildren.
A public memorial service is planned for Christ Cathedral. A date has not been set yet.
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Rev. Robert H. Schuller, who built Crystal Cathedral, dies at 88
BY WILLIAM LOBDELL AND MITCHELL LANDSBERG
The Rev. Robert H. Schuller, who built the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove as the embodiment of an upbeat, modern vision of Christianity, only to see his ministry shattered by family discord and financial ruin, has died. He was 88.
Maybe this should be it's own thread ???
Have you ever been to the Crystal Cathedral ( Christ Cathedral as it's now named ) ? Beautiful.
(http://sojo.net/sites/default/files/mainimages/blog/94449979.jpg)
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