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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 09:44:39 AM

Title: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 09:44:39 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven


Stephen Hawking: 'There is no heaven; it's a fairy story'
In an exclusive interview with the Guardian, the cosmologist shares his thoughts on death, M-theory, human purpose and our chance existence


 Sunday 15 May 2011 22.00 BST


Stephen Hawking dismisses belief in God in an exclusive interview with the Guardian.
A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.

In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.

Hawking, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at the age of 21, shares his thoughts on death, human purpose and our chance existence in an exclusive interview with the Guardian today.

The incurable illness was expected to kill Hawking within a few years of its symptoms arising, an outlook that turned the young scientist to Wagner, but ultimately led him to enjoy life more, he has said, despite the cloud hanging over his future.

"I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first," he said.

"I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," he added.

Hawking's latest comments go beyond those laid out in his 2010 book, The Grand Design, in which he asserted that there is no need for a creator to explain the existence of the universe. The book provoked a backlash from some religious leaders, including the chief rabbi, Lord Sacks, who accused Hawking of committing an "elementary fallacy" of logic.

The 69-year-old physicist fell seriously ill after a lecture tour in the US in 2009 and was taken to Addenbrookes hospital in an episode that sparked grave concerns for his health. He has since returned to his Cambridge department as director of research.

The physicist's remarks draw a stark line between the use of God as a metaphor and the belief in an omniscient creator whose hands guide the workings of the cosmos.

In his bestselling 1988 book, A Brief History of Time, Hawking drew on the device so beloved of Einstein, when he described what it would mean for scientists to develop a "theory of everything" – a set of equations that described every particle and force in the entire universe. "It would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we should know the mind of God," he wrote.

The book sold a reported 9 million copies and propelled the physicist to instant stardom. His fame has led to guest roles in The Simpsons, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Red Dwarf. One of his greatest achievements in physics is a theory that describes how black holes emit radiation.

In the interview, Hawking rejected the notion of life beyond death and emphasised the need to fulfil our potential on Earth by making good use of our lives. In answer to a question on how we should live, he said, simply: "We should seek the greatest value of our action."

In answering another, he wrote of the beauty of science, such as the exquisite double helix of DNA in biology, or the fundamental equations of physics.

Hawking responded to questions posed by the Guardian and a reader in advance of a lecture tomorrow at the Google Zeitgeist meeting in London, in which he will address the question: "Why are we here?"

In the talk, he will argue that tiny quantum fluctuations in the very early universe became the seeds from which galaxies, stars, and ultimately human life emerged. "Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in," he said.

Hawking suggests that with modern space-based instruments, such as the European Space Agency's Planck mission, it may be possible to spot ancient fingerprints in the light left over from the earliest moments of the universe and work out how our own place in space came to be.

His talk will focus on M-theory, a broad mathematical framework that encompasses string theory, which is regarded by many physicists as the best hope yet of developing a theory of everything.

M-theory demands a universe with 11 dimensions, including a dimension of time and the three familiar spatial dimensions. The rest are curled up too small for us to see.

Evidence in support of M-theory might also come from the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at Cern, the European particle physics laboratory near Geneva.

One possibility predicted by M-theory is supersymmetry, an idea that says fundamental particles have heavy – and as yet undiscovered – twins, with curious names such as selectrons and squarks.

Confirmation of supersymmetry would be a shot in the arm for M-theory and help physicists explain how each force at work in the universe arose from one super-force at the dawn of time.

Another potential discovery at the LHC, that of the elusive Higgs boson, which is thought to give mass to elementary particles, might be less welcome to Hawking, who has a long-standing bet that the long-sought entity will never be found at the laboratory.

Hawking will join other speakers at the London event, including the chancellor, George Osborne, and the Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz.

Science, truth and beauty: Hawking's answers

What is the value in knowing "Why are we here?"

The universe is governed by science. But science tells us that we can't solve the equations, directly in the abstract. We need to use the effective theory of Darwinian natural selection of those societies most likely to survive. We assign them higher value.

You've said there is no reason to invoke God to light the blue touchpaper. Is our existence all down to luck?

Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in.

So here we are. What should we do?

We should seek the greatest value of our action.

You had a health scare and spent time in hospital in 2009. What, if anything, do you fear about death?

I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first. I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.

What are the things you find most beautiful in science?

Science is beautiful when it makes simple explanations of phenomena or connections between different observations. Examples include the double helix in biology, and the fundamental equations of physics."
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 09:47:19 AM
looks like someone is so depressed he wants everyone else to be as depressed as him before... dying.

A true humanist  :-\


Quote
So here we are. What should we do?

We should seek the greatest value of our action.


oookaay....
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 17, 2011, 09:48:51 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven


Stephen Hawking: 'There is no heaven; it's a fairy story'
In an exclusive interview with the Guardian, the cosmologist shares his thoughts on death, M-theory, human purpose and our chance existence


 Sunday 15 May 2011 22.00 BST


Stephen Hawking dismisses belief in God in an exclusive interview with the Guardian.
A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.

In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.

Hawking, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at the age of 21, shares his thoughts on death, human purpose and our chance existence in an exclusive interview with the Guardian today.

The incurable illness was expected to kill Hawking within a few years of its symptoms arising, an outlook that turned the young scientist to Wagner, but ultimately led him to enjoy life more, he has said, despite the cloud hanging over his future.

"I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first," he said.

"I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," he added.

Hawking's latest comments go beyond those laid out in his 2010 book, The Grand Design, in which he asserted that there is no need for a creator to explain the existence of the universe. The book provoked a backlash from some religious leaders, including the chief rabbi, Lord Sacks, who accused Hawking of committing an "elementary fallacy" of logic.

The 69-year-old physicist fell seriously ill after a lecture tour in the US in 2009 and was taken to Addenbrookes hospital in an episode that sparked grave concerns for his health. He has since returned to his Cambridge department as director of research.

The physicist's remarks draw a stark line between the use of God as a metaphor and the belief in an omniscient creator whose hands guide the workings of the cosmos.

In his bestselling 1988 book, A Brief History of Time, Hawking drew on the device so beloved of Einstein, when he described what it would mean for scientists to develop a "theory of everything" – a set of equations that described every particle and force in the entire universe. "It would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we should know the mind of God," he wrote.

The book sold a reported 9 million copies and propelled the physicist to instant stardom. His fame has led to guest roles in The Simpsons, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Red Dwarf. One of his greatest achievements in physics is a theory that describes how black holes emit radiation.

In the interview, Hawking rejected the notion of life beyond death and emphasised the need to fulfil our potential on Earth by making good use of our lives. In answer to a question on how we should live, he said, simply: "We should seek the greatest value of our action."

In answering another, he wrote of the beauty of science, such as the exquisite double helix of DNA in biology, or the fundamental equations of physics.

Hawking responded to questions posed by the Guardian and a reader in advance of a lecture tomorrow at the Google Zeitgeist meeting in London, in which he will address the question: "Why are we here?"

In the talk, he will argue that tiny quantum fluctuations in the very early universe became the seeds from which galaxies, stars, and ultimately human life emerged. "Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in," he said.

Hawking suggests that with modern space-based instruments, such as the European Space Agency's Planck mission, it may be possible to spot ancient fingerprints in the light left over from the earliest moments of the universe and work out how our own place in space came to be.

His talk will focus on M-theory, a broad mathematical framework that encompasses string theory, which is regarded by many physicists as the best hope yet of developing a theory of everything.

M-theory demands a universe with 11 dimensions, including a dimension of time and the three familiar spatial dimensions. The rest are curled up too small for us to see.

Evidence in support of M-theory might also come from the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at Cern, the European particle physics laboratory near Geneva.

One possibility predicted by M-theory is supersymmetry, an idea that says fundamental particles have heavy – and as yet undiscovered – twins, with curious names such as selectrons and squarks.

Confirmation of supersymmetry would be a shot in the arm for M-theory and help physicists explain how each force at work in the universe arose from one super-force at the dawn of time.

Another potential discovery at the LHC, that of the elusive Higgs boson, which is thought to give mass to elementary particles, might be less welcome to Hawking, who has a long-standing bet that the long-sought entity will never be found at the laboratory.

Hawking will join other speakers at the London event, including the chancellor, George Osborne, and the Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz.

Science, truth and beauty: Hawking's answers

What is the value in knowing "Why are we here?"

The universe is governed by science. But science tells us that we can't solve the equations, directly in the abstract. We need to use the effective theory of Darwinian natural selection of those societies most likely to survive. We assign them higher value.

You've said there is no reason to invoke God to light the blue touchpaper. Is our existence all down to luck?

Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in.

So here we are. What should we do?

We should seek the greatest value of our action.

You had a health scare and spent time in hospital in 2009. What, if anything, do you fear about death?

I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first. I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.

What are the things you find most beautiful in science?

Science is beautiful when it makes simple explanations of phenomena or connections between different observations. Examples include the double helix in biology, and the fundamental equations of physics."


I figured this out when I was a child  ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 09:49:50 AM
looks like someone is so depressed he wants everyone else to be as depressed as him before... dying.

A true humanist  :-\
Looks like you are a fairy tale believing shit brain.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Army of One on May 17, 2011, 09:50:58 AM
Looks like you are a fairy tale believing shit brain.

You seem very angry lately ,Adonis.What is the reason for this?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Bam-bam on May 17, 2011, 09:51:25 AM
so what has this retard genius ever done? any nobel prizes? fortune 500 companies? sports trophies??  ???
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 09:53:28 AM
You seem very angry lately ,Adonis.What is the reason for this?
If I come across as angry, which I am certainly not, I do apologize.  I must confide that I am incredibly ecstatic about my current circumstance as I believe I have followed Hawking`s wise advice "Seek the greatest value from your action".

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Fallsview on May 17, 2011, 09:53:35 AM
ALSO THIS JUST IN:  STEROIDS KILL!!!!!!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 09:54:46 AM
so what has this retard genius ever done? any nobel prizes? fortune 500 companies? sports trophies??  ???
telling other human beings that what they feel , think, makes no sense and that god, heaven doesnt exist. Dude obviously loves life and others ...

And that "So here we are. What should we do?

We should seek the greatest value of our action."


 ::)


Sometimes you wonder why he s born crippled.... maybe there s some karma, cause and consequence he didnt think of lol. Maybe his parents didnt want him, maybe his mother smoked or drank when she was pregnant of him, hence his disabilities... One thing is sure his message to mankind only motivates people like true anus -who finds kids "disgusting" - to spray his word with many "HAHA" added to his lines. And we all know what kind of character true anus is. The kind of individual nobody wants to deal with.

Mankind should only be made of people like true anus with no education, no jobs, no caring family, living in their gf's appartment and who portray themselves as pseudo intelectuals on the internet because of some real life complexions, and who adopt... dogs!

Also back on topic,  re-inventing schopenhauer isnt a feat either. Cause that's all this depressing little individual has done.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Fallsview on May 17, 2011, 09:55:24 AM
ALSO THIS JUST IN:  SUB SHACKS GRAND OPENING!!!!!!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 09:57:49 AM
If I come across as angry, which I am certainly not, I do apologize.  I must confide that I am incredibly ecstatic about my current circumstance as I believe I have followed Hawking`s wise advice "Seek the greatest value from your action".



Nobody likes you, that's why you and hawking think the same about life. See, it's not that hard to understand. Judging by pics i ve seen of you and your behavior on here, i easily understand why you end rejected by everyone. You dont want kids who are "disgusting", you copy and paste an article written by hawking a crippled ugly looking man who message to manking is "life makes no sense and heaven doesnt exist", it's quite clear you guys both werent loved much by your parents originally, hence your harted toward mankind as a whole.

Keep up the "good" job, you re oviously enjoying it, looks like... it gives a meaning, ironically, to your own life!

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: funk51 on May 17, 2011, 09:58:43 AM
god has a sense of humour he created stephen hawkings.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Halcyon on May 17, 2011, 09:58:54 AM
If I come across as angry, which I am certainly not, I do apologize.  I must confide that I am incredibly ecstatic about my current circumstance as I believe I have followed Hawking`s wise advice "Seek the greatest value from your action".



very well said my friend.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Maldoror on May 17, 2011, 10:03:57 AM
Impossible to know one way or the other. Nothing can be proven about life after death, no hypothesis can be put forth... While modern religions are as ridiculous as fairytales, science, too, is of no use to us.

Unamuno, Spain's greatest philosopher, wrote an excellent book about this. In a nutshell: His heart wanted to believe in life after death, but his head wouldn't let him. It's the same for most of us, I guess. I suppose we'll figure it out once we're dead.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Coach is Back! on May 17, 2011, 10:06:56 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven


Stephen Hawking: 'There is no heaven; it's a fairy story'
In an exclusive interview with the Guardian, the cosmologist shares his thoughts on death, M-theory, human purpose and our chance existence


 Sunday 15 May 2011 22.00 BST


Stephen Hawking dismisses belief in God in an exclusive interview with the Guardian.
A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.

In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.

Hawking, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at the age of 21, shares his thoughts on death, human purpose and our chance existence in an exclusive interview with the Guardian today.

The incurable illness was expected to kill Hawking within a few years of its symptoms arising, an outlook that turned the young scientist to Wagner, but ultimately led him to enjoy life more, he has said, despite the cloud hanging over his future.

"I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first," he said.

"I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," he added.

Hawking's latest comments go beyond those laid out in his 2010 book, The Grand Design, in which he asserted that there is no need for a creator to explain the existence of the universe. The book provoked a backlash from some religious leaders, including the chief rabbi, Lord Sacks, who accused Hawking of committing an "elementary fallacy" of logic.

The 69-year-old physicist fell seriously ill after a lecture tour in the US in 2009 and was taken to Addenbrookes hospital in an episode that sparked grave concerns for his health. He has since returned to his Cambridge department as director of research.

The physicist's remarks draw a stark line between the use of God as a metaphor and the belief in an omniscient creator whose hands guide the workings of the cosmos.

In his bestselling 1988 book, A Brief History of Time, Hawking drew on the device so beloved of Einstein, when he described what it would mean for scientists to develop a "theory of everything" – a set of equations that described every particle and force in the entire universe. "It would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we should know the mind of God," he wrote.

The book sold a reported 9 million copies and propelled the physicist to instant stardom. His fame has led to guest roles in The Simpsons, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Red Dwarf. One of his greatest achievements in physics is a theory that describes how black holes emit radiation.

In the interview, Hawking rejected the notion of life beyond death and emphasised the need to fulfil our potential on Earth by making good use of our lives. In answer to a question on how we should live, he said, simply: "We should seek the greatest value of our action."

In answering another, he wrote of the beauty of science, such as the exquisite double helix of DNA in biology, or the fundamental equations of physics.

Hawking responded to questions posed by the Guardian and a reader in advance of a lecture tomorrow at the Google Zeitgeist meeting in London, in which he will address the question: "Why are we here?"

In the talk, he will argue that tiny quantum fluctuations in the very early universe became the seeds from which galaxies, stars, and ultimately human life emerged. "Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in," he said.

Hawking suggests that with modern space-based instruments, such as the European Space Agency's Planck mission, it may be possible to spot ancient fingerprints in the light left over from the earliest moments of the universe and work out how our own place in space came to be.

His talk will focus on M-theory, a broad mathematical framework that encompasses string theory, which is regarded by many physicists as the best hope yet of developing a theory of everything.

M-theory demands a universe with 11 dimensions, including a dimension of time and the three familiar spatial dimensions. The rest are curled up too small for us to see.

Evidence in support of M-theory might also come from the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at Cern, the European particle physics laboratory near Geneva.

One possibility predicted by M-theory is supersymmetry, an idea that says fundamental particles have heavy – and as yet undiscovered – twins, with curious names such as selectrons and squarks.

Confirmation of supersymmetry would be a shot in the arm for M-theory and help physicists explain how each force at work in the universe arose from one super-force at the dawn of time.

Another potential discovery at the LHC, that of the elusive Higgs boson, which is thought to give mass to elementary particles, might be less welcome to Hawking, who has a long-standing bet that the long-sought entity will never be found at the laboratory.

Hawking will join other speakers at the London event, including the chancellor, George Osborne, and the Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz.

Science, truth and beauty: Hawking's answers

What is the value in knowing "Why are we here?"

The universe is governed by science. But science tells us that we can't solve the equations, directly in the abstract. We need to use the effective theory of Darwinian natural selection of those societies most likely to survive. We assign them higher value.

You've said there is no reason to invoke God to light the blue touchpaper. Is our existence all down to luck?

Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in.

So here we are. What should we do?

We should seek the greatest value of our action.

You had a health scare and spent time in hospital in 2009. What, if anything, do you fear about death?

I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first. I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.

What are the things you find most beautiful in science?

Science is beautiful when it makes simple explanations of phenomena or connections between different observations. Examples include the double helix in biology, and the fundamental equations of physics."


He's entitled to his opinion. He's writing a book you know, needs the controversy to help promote it. Plus he's just pissed off because every time he has to go to the bathroom he shits himself. God's sense of humor at work :)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 10:08:04 AM
if we understand the meaning of life, life wont make  sense anymore. Looking for the understanding of life actually constitutes life's meaning. If we stop looking for something, we have nothing else to do.
If the answer is that life has no meaning, well, you know where this kind of thoughts lead to.

Some say our ability to "think" and "feel" are a result of evolution. That it serves no other purpose but to keep us alive.
Considering evolution makes mistakes and that some strategies of survival do not work, maybe thinking and feeling is a strategy of evolution that wont work.
Life wants to perpetuate itself. If you want to kill yourself and convince other people to kill themselves, then you re anti-life, period.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: YngiweRhoads on May 17, 2011, 10:09:34 AM
Impossible to know one way or the other. Nothing can be proven about life after death, no hypothesis can be put forth... While modern religions are as ridiculous as fairytales, science, too, is of no use to us.

Unamuno, Spain's greatest philosopher, wrote an excellent book about this. In a nutshell: His heart wanted to believe in life after death, but his head wouldn't let him. It's the same for most of us, I guess. I suppose we'll figure it out once we're dead.

Philosophy is dead.

Philosophy doesn't account for the most recent advances in physics over the last 25 years. They still contemplate early 20th century quantum physics.

It's dead.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: bradistani on May 17, 2011, 10:10:22 AM
he's probably got a book out or something.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Fallsview on May 17, 2011, 10:11:02 AM
Mr. Adonis, how would your Civil War ancestors feel about your modern day belief since they based so much faith into "their" God?

"Every click was a prayer; every stitch a tear.”

"My God, has the army dissolved?"

General John B. Gordon, who actively participated in the revival, tells us that in every camp
religious altars were erected around which ragged soldiers knelt and worshiped: “The religious
revivals which ensued formed a most remarkable and important chapter in war history. Rocks
and woods rang with appeals to holiness. Thousands became soldiers of the Cross.”

MAYBE THEIR BELIEF IN GOD IS WHY THE SOUTH LOST.....?


STAY POSITIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 10:12:19 AM
Philosophy is dead.

Philosophy doesn't account for the most recent advances in physics over the last 25 years. They still contemplate early 20th century quantum physics.

It's dead.
philosophy isnt "dead". To "think" is ...being a philosopher.

Nowadays we just mix everything philosophy, psychology, psychoanalysis, neurology, biology, ethology, anthropology etc have found and are building a new way to conceptualize our existence. Everything is the sum of what preceded it , the selection of what was considered -by who, what?- as adapted for life and the destruction of what isnt. With the internet more and more people, even of "lower education/intelligence" have access to all these knowledges.

And we all use all these informations to fuck each other in the ass and dominate most of the time, to increase our own odds of survival even if at the expense of someone else. Not to help. Religion actually taught individuals to survive while helping each others, that's the only part of it that was positive. And... it has allowed us to build our modern civilizations with police, armies, law , order , cars, electricity and so on. Some people abused it as usual and now it has been abandonned, and mankind is now building something new and more global.

Again everything is the sum of everything that precedes it.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Coach is Back! on May 17, 2011, 10:12:23 AM
he's probably got a book out or something.

Not yet. It's in the works.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 10:13:14 AM
if we understand the meaning of life, life wont make  sense anymore. Looking for the understanding of life actually constitutes life's meaning. If we stop looking for something, we have nothing else to do.
If the answer is that life has no meaning, well, you know where this kind of thoughts lead to.

Some say our ability to "think" and "feel" are a result of evolution. That it serves no other purpose but to keep us alive.
Considering evolution makes mistakes and that some strategies of survival do not work, maybe thinking and feeling is a strategy of evolution that wont work.
Life wants to perpetuate itself. If you want to kill yourself and convince other people to kill themselves, then you re anti-life, period.

To be born, reproduce and then die.    :-X
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: James28 on May 17, 2011, 10:13:27 AM
You mean there is NOT an invisible ghost in the sky that created everything that is substance by uttering words? Whatever gave people that idea?

I love when we talk about evolution and progress when we're still naked, flopping helplessly in the primordial ooze.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Coach is Back! on May 17, 2011, 10:15:09 AM
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: pluck on May 17, 2011, 10:16:41 AM
While True Anus is a gimmicky ass clown he's right with this post.

Here come all the religious nut huggers (I used to be one until I started reading books) with their female-esque emotional arguments about the existence of their long bearded man in the sky. Think about this for a second, the ONLY reason you believe in god or whatever is because you were raised as a little kid going to sunday school, church, communion, bible study...etc or any combination of those things. You just accept it because it was drilled in your head for years, decades, ...

None of your religious zealots have read any of his work so obviously it's heresy that does not make sense.

"hehehe hawkings is god's joke he hehehe" come on. Is that a real argument to support your fairy tale in the sky?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 10:18:32 AM
While True Anus is a gimmicky ass clown he's right with this post.

Here come all the religious nut huggers (I used to be one until I started reading books) with their female-esque emotional arguments about the existence of their long bearded man in the sky. Think about this for a second, the ONLY reason you believe in god or whatever is because you were raised as a little kid going to sunday school, church, communion, bible study...etc or any combination of those things. You just accept it because it was drilled in your head for years, decades, ...

None of your religious zealots have read any of his work so obviously it's heresy that does not make sense.

"hehehe hawkings is god's joke he hehehe" come on. Is that a real argument to support your fairy tale in the sky?

What about the educated, well read atheists who became devote theists?  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Butterbean on May 17, 2011, 10:18:52 AM

"I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," he added.


Why would anyone be afraid of death if there was no afterlife?  If we just ceased to exist, why would anyone be afraid of that? 




Does anyone have a link to where Hawking explains where the quantum fluctuations came from that he said are the "seeds" from which everything else came into existence?

Also, are there any links to him explaining his views of emotions and consciousness? 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Fallsview on May 17, 2011, 10:20:21 AM
And again....

The Word of God was hungrily sought by the Confederate soldiers,
and great efforts were made to provide Bibles from the printing presses in Nashville and other
Southern cities and by importation from Great Britain. Dr. Moses D. Hoge of Richmond risked
his life in running the blockade from Charleston, and later into Wilmington, in order to secure
copies from the British and Foreign Bible Society. That organization was impressively generous.
He went to purchase, but he returned with a gift of 15,000 Bibles, 50,000 Testaments, and
250,000 copies of the Gospels and Psalms bound together. That they were needed is attested by
the incessant demand for them on the part of the chaplains and missionaries with the forces.

AND JUST THINK...THE SOUTH COULD HAVE WON IF THEY DIDN'T PUT SO MUCH EFFORT/FAITH IN "GOD".


STAY/REMAIN/HAVE FAITH/HAVE POSITIVENESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Coach is Back! on May 17, 2011, 10:22:48 AM
Why would anyone be afraid of death if there was no afterlife?  If we just ceased to exist, why would anyone be afraid of that? 




Does anyone have a link to where Hawking explains where the quantum fluctuations came from that he said are the "seeds" from which everything else came into existence?

Also, are there any links to him explaining his views of emotions and consciousness? 

Better yet, is there anyone testing his own theories to see if he's even correct in his findings?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: pluck on May 17, 2011, 10:22:52 AM
What about the educated, well read atheists who became devote theists?  

The number of people who have turned like you mention is very few... I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions and I would love to know why they turned. Do you?

Fact is that most well educated academics don't subscribe to any religion...except in cases where it's good for their image like owners of companies, public figures, etc...where their customers, electoral base is religous.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: pluck on May 17, 2011, 10:23:52 AM
Better yet, is there anyone testing his own theories to see if he's even correct in his findings?

Do you know any of his theories? How many works of his have you read cover to cover ?

I'm tempted to say NONE
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Coach is Back! on May 17, 2011, 10:24:49 AM
All I know is that most Christians seem more at peace with themselves as opposed to atheists who just seem flat out miserable.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: pluck on May 17, 2011, 10:25:05 AM
10 Page Thread in less than 24 hours
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 10:32:20 AM
The number of people who have turned like you mention is very few... I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions and I would love to know why they turned. Do you?

Fact is that most well educated academics don't subscribe to any religion...except in cases where it's good for their image like owners of companies, public figures, etc...where their customers, electoral base is religous.

You said that the only reason a person would believe in God is because that person was raised to do so.

As for the number of educated, well read atheists who have become theists, it doesn't matter how few or how many.  Truth is not a democracy.

As for your suggestion that these atheists turned theists are just politicians who lie to get votes:

Antony Flew, Lee Strobel, C. S. Lewis, Josh McDowell just to name a few.  None of these are/were politicians.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: pluck on May 17, 2011, 10:34:34 AM
You said that the only reason a person would believe in God is because that person was raised to do so.

As for the number of educated, well read atheists who have become theists, it doesn't matter how few or how many.  Truth is not a democracy.

As for you suggestion that these atheists turned theists are just politicians who lie to get votes:

Antony Flew, Lee Strobel, C. S. Lewis, Josh McDowell just to name a few.  None of these are/were politicians.

You just proved my point. The list of names you have is very few of people who have turned.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Maldoror on May 17, 2011, 10:35:18 AM
10 Page Thread in less than 24 hours

Agreed. And all over nothing. We can never know what comes after death. The person who makes definite statements about death is a liar -- and the people who believe him are fools.

Most people are just very scared, so they want to deceive themselves. Some are scared of endless life, others are scared of endless darkness. That's just the way it is.


Stephen Hawking has been making asinine statements for a couple of years now, by the way. First aliens, and now this shit...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Coach is Back! on May 17, 2011, 10:35:21 AM
Do you know any of his theories? How many works of his have you read cover to cover ?

I'm tempted to say NONE

Actually I have, about 15 years ago I read his book "A brief history of time" and found it interesting (from what I remember of it).
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Darren Avey on May 17, 2011, 10:35:52 AM
No human being no matter how high their IQ can say for sure theres no after life, no one alive knows for sure.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 10:36:17 AM
You just proved my point. The list of names you have is very few of people who have turned.



No, I just proved you wrong.  You said that the only reason a person would believe in God is because that person was raised to do so.

You said that these atheists turned theists are just politicians who lie to get votes.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Coach is Back! on May 17, 2011, 10:37:40 AM
The number of people who have turned like you mention is very few... I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions and I would love to know why they turned. Do you?

Fact is that most well educated academics don't subscribe to any religion...except in cases where it's good for their image like owners of companies, public figures, etc...where their customers, electoral base is religous.

Thats not a fact at all. Depends on where these educated academics were educated at and where these "facts" were gathered.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 10:39:28 AM
Actually I have, about 15 years ago I read his book "A brief history of time" and found it interesting (from what I remember of it).

You've actually read a book  :o
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: pluck on May 17, 2011, 10:40:20 AM
No, I just proved you wrong.  You said that the only reason a person would believe in God is because that person was raised to do so.

You said that these atheists turned theists are just politicians who lie to get votes.

Ok, let me expand my original statement. The ONLY reasons or 99.9% of people who are believers were raised from childhood or the people who convert to fill in the void in their failed life ...like drug addicts, alcoholics...etc who are down and out and turn to anything comforting to "get them through their struggle"

The remaining .1 % you can throw in the more or less rational people like you listed that turn later in life
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Jadeveon Clowney on May 17, 2011, 10:42:39 AM
Why would anyone be afraid of death if there was no afterlife?  If we just ceased to exist, why would anyone be afraid of that?  




Does anyone have a link to where Hawking explains where the quantum fluctuations came from that he said are the "seeds" from which everything else came into existence?




For me, any fear is associated with the cessation of existence.  Unlike the Buddha, I have not transcended my desire for life, etc.  If I believed in a heaven in which my desires were gratified better than they are here, that would help me out.


I believe "Hawkings" believes that a "law" like gravity can bring everything into being.  How the law came into being, who knows?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Coach is Back! on May 17, 2011, 10:44:30 AM
You've actually read a book  :o

Yes, I read a shitload. Usually ones that pertain to my work. But when I read other books, I tend to start a few at a time and don't get a chance to finish half of them. Short attention span and get bored easily.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: pluck on May 17, 2011, 10:45:05 AM

You said that these atheists turned theists are just politicians who lie to get votes.

Ok, let me illustrate my point in a different way.

In the last few weeks when Trump was in the spotlight for his bullshit presidency run he was heavily supported by the idiot "birthers" because he wanted proof of obamas birth certificate. Do you honestly think Trump either gave a fuck or really supported the birther movement? FUCK NO because it's completely asinine that obama isn't a natural born U.S. citizen. He did it to get support and stir the media pot.

Same thing with the political figures who claim they are religious...why? Because most of their constituents are religious and they'll get votes
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Jadeveon Clowney on May 17, 2011, 10:46:01 AM
Short attention span and get bored easily.

we already knew that about you. that's why we affectionately refer to you as a retard.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 10:46:35 AM
Ok, let me expand my original statement. The ONLY reasons or 99.9% of people who are believers were raised from childhood or the people who convert to fill in the void in their failed life ...like drug addicts, alcoholics...etc who are down and out and turn to anything comforting to "get them through their struggle"

The remaining .1 % you can throw in the more or less rational people like you listed that turn later in life
these .1% people also built a system of values, a psychism based on other kind of beliefs, influences they ve been fed with subconciously by those who raised them... Which can be considered as a kind of "religion". Basically atheism/science is just another kind of belief, it's just another religion fighting...other religions.

The new mainstream invisible religion is TV and internet. The dominant messages shape our own view of our the modern world constantly. Adultery, sex addictions , hedonism and materialism , consumerism are the new dominant values we re all fed with constantly. Even if you hide from them, other people you have to deal with will project these influences in your own mind. Considering your brain is designed to keep you alive, it will use everything and adapt it to your surroundings so you ll increase your odds of survival and...reproduction.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 10:50:04 AM
Ok, let me expand my original statement. The ONLY reasons or 99.9% of people who are believers were raised from childhood or the people who convert to fill in the void in their failed life ...like drug addicts, alcoholics...etc who are down and out and turn to anything comforting to "get them through their struggle"

The remaining .1 % you can throw in the more or less rational people like you listed that turn later in life

Wrong again!  

Look up Antony Flew, Francis Collins, Lee Strobel, C. S. Lewis, Josh McDowell and you'll see that none of these guys fit your stereotype.

As for the "99.9% of people", show me the peer reviewed scientific study where you got that percentage, or are you just making up numbers and statistics in your head as you go?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: pluck on May 17, 2011, 10:53:03 AM
these .1% people also built a system of values, a psychism based on other kind of beliefs, influences they ve been fed with subconciously by those who raised them... Which can be considered as a kind of "religion". Basically atheism/science is just another kind of belief, it's just another religion fighting...other religions.

You can call anything a religion based on your stupid reasoning. Bodybuilding religion. Getbig religion. Schmoe religion. California religion.

Here's what people fail to understand who have never read any sort of science type shit.

Science does not set out to prove anything. Science tries to explain why natural phenomena/processes happen. It's ever changing. If a more accepted or plausible theory for a process or phenomenon happens then that is the theory that stands until it gets disprove or a better one comes along.

Science tries to explain things using facts, critical thinking and empirical evidence.....
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 10:53:22 AM
Ok, let me illustrate my point in a different way.

In the last few weeks when Trump was in the spotlight for his bullshit presidency run he was heavily supported by the idiot "birthers" because he wanted proof of obamas birth certificate. Do you honestly think Trump either gave a fuck or really supported the birther movement? FUCK NO because it's completely asinine that obama isn't a natural born U.S. citizen. He did it to get support and stir the media pot.

Same thing with the political figures who claim they are religious...why? Because most of their constituents are religious and they'll get votes

Again, the educated atheists turned theists that I listed do not fit your political figure stereotype.  Do a little reading on each one of them and you'll see that you are wrong about them.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Ursus on May 17, 2011, 10:54:04 AM
What tool do these people measure the non-existence of afterlife with?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: pluck on May 17, 2011, 10:56:53 AM
Again, the educated atheists turned theists that I listed do not fit your political figure stereotype.  Do a little reading on each one of them and you'll see that you are wrong about them.

Dude your list of turned believers is so fucking small compared to people who have turned atheist is so small that it is negligible. That's all I'm saying on the subject.

There are countless examples of people as they become more educated, aware and literate ...they begin to question shit that has been shoved down their throat. I'm done trying to argue this...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 10:57:30 AM
Wrong again!  

Look up Antony Flew, Francis Collins, Lee Strobel, C. S. Lewis, Josh McDowell and you'll see that none of these guys fit your stereotype.

As for the "99.9% of people", show me the peer reviewed scientific study where you got that percentage, or are you just making up numbers and statistics in your head as you go?

I think pluck is going little overboard with saying stuff like that. But that doesn't take away from the fact that a majority of people that are well established within the natural sciences community are at the least agnostic.

But of course there's always exceptions... like the head of the human genome project, Francis Collins who is devoutly christian. But that doesn't say diddly squat about whether the god hypothesis is true or not.. and that goes both ways.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 10:58:38 AM
You can call anything a religion based on your stupid reasoning. Bodybuilding religion. Getbig religion. Schmoe religion. California religion.

Here's what people fail to understand who have never read any sort of science type shit.

Science does not set out to prove anything. Science tries to explain why natural phenomena/processes happen. It's ever changing. If a more accepted or plausible theory for a process or phenomenon happens then that is the theory that stands until it gets disprove or a better one comes along.

Science tries to explain things using facts, critical thinking and empirical evidence.....

your mind , thoughts/cognitions, beliefs /feelings are built and wired together by your senses which act as recorders. If you experience something that makes you feel good, everything linked to it (objects, people) will be tainted as "good". This is how our brain works. What is "good" is what increase or insure your odds of survival. (dominating, working (=money=better odds of survival), sucking your mother's breasts for milk, having sex etc)
Everything that icnreases your chances of survival makes you feel good. Everything that decreases your chances of survival makes you feel bad.

Succesfuly passing your driving license exam in a shitty red car will makes you like this shitty red cares cause it is related to a positive experience that increased your odds of survival (i will be able to go to school/work / explore the world to find a mate to reproduce with).
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: gh15 on May 17, 2011, 10:58:55 AM
stephen swalking is one miserble sob,,ofcourse he say thee is no heaven...anyone who got such punishment from god to sit in that wheelchair of his looking like that would say there is no heaven... look at the quality of his life,,misereble fucktard,,

there is god ,,and there is heaven,, it is personal to each and every one,,the problem with people is they expect miricle every sunday,,they dont get it that miricle only happen when REALLY REALLY needed,, the interference is individual not general,,the miricles dont happen for a group ,,it is happening individualy ,,each and his and her god ,,

the older you become the better you understand it  ,,you never understand it completrely until you die,,when you die its too late to tell anyone,, thats the beauty in life and death ...you cant ruin it no matter how much part of generation nothingess you are,,

gh15 approved
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 11:00:11 AM
you re mind , thoughts/cognitions, beliefs /feelings are built and wired together by your senses which act as recorders. If you experience something that makes you feel good, everything linked to it (objects, people) will be tainted as "good". This is how our brain works. What is "good" is what increase or insure your odds of survival. (dominating, working (=money=better odds of survival), sucking your mother's breasts for milk, having sex etc)
Everything that icnreases your chances of survival makes you feel good. Everything that decreases your chances of survival makes you feel bad.

Evolution is driven by the propagation of individual genes, not necessarily survival.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 17, 2011, 11:00:27 AM
All I know is that most Christians seem more at peace with themselves as opposed to atheists who just seem flat out miserable.

idiotic statement at best
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 11:00:54 AM
Dude your list of turned believers is so fucking small compared to people who have turned atheist is so small that it is negligible. That's all I'm saying on the subject.

There are countless examples of people as they become more educated, aware and literate ...they begin to question shit that has been shoved down their throat. I'm done trying to argue this...

The list doesn't matter.  It takes only one educated atheist turned theist, who is not a political figure to prove you wrong.  And I have proved you wrong with my list.

Truth is not a democracy.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 11:02:28 AM
Evolution is driven by the propagation of individual genes, not necessarily survival.
mmmm...

look for Memetics...

evolution, natural selection select behaviors, genes and thoughts, cognitions, that lead to a better survival compared to the concurence and depending of the surrounding environment. Natural selection is at work in your own consciousness, selecting beliefs, cognitions that attempt to insure the survival of your own psychism.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: pluck on May 17, 2011, 11:02:37 AM
What tool do these people measure the non-existence of afterlife with?

I'm not saying there is no after life, I'm 99% certain that there is NONE because there is no evidence or any kind of to support it.
The 1 % is the lee way because science is ever changing and if someone comes out with evidence to say that we're all going to heaven/hell/mcdonalds then that's what will make a lot more sense
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 11:04:01 AM
Ok, let me expand my original statement. The ONLY reasons or 99.9% of people who are believers were raised from childhood or the people who convert to fill in the void in their failed life ...like drug addicts, alcoholics...etc who are down and out and turn to anything comforting to "get them through their struggle"

The remaining .1 % you can throw in the more or less rational people like you listed that turn later in life

Wrong again! 

Look up Antony Flew, Francis Collins, Lee Strobel, C. S. Lewis, Josh McDowell and you'll see that none of these guys fit your stereotype.

As for the "99.9% of people", show me the peer reviewed scientific study where you got that percentage, or are you just making up numbers and statistics in your head as you go?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 11:04:49 AM
What tool do these people measure the non-existence of afterlife with?

They have no tool and neither do you. You don't know the answer either. To try and claim otherwise would be lying.

I'd say it's probable that there's no afterlife, actually very probable... but I can't know for sure.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: pluck on May 17, 2011, 11:05:15 AM
Evolution is driven by the propagation of individual genes, not necessarily survival.

Evolution has no drive. Evolution has no goal.
Evolution is RANDOM chance.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 17, 2011, 11:05:50 AM
stephen swalking is one miserble sob,,ofcourse he say thee is no heaven...anyone who got such punishment from god to sit in that wheelchair of his looking like that would say there is no heaven... look at the quality of his life,,misereble fucktard,,

The other side of the coin is that he would be MORE likely to believe in a wonderful afterlife because his current life sucks..

there is god ,,and there is heaven,, it is personal to each and every one,,the problem with people is they expect miricle every sunday,,they dont get it that miricle only happen when REALLY REALLY needed,, the interference is individual not general,,the miricles dont happen for a group ,,it is happening individualy ,,each and his and her god ,,

One could argue that when someones child is dying of cancer, they REALLY REALLY need it so your description of when a miracle will occur is flawed and doesn't stand up to the least bit of scrutiny

the older you become the better you understand it  ,,you never understand it completrely until you die,,when you die its too late to tell anyone,, thats the beauty in life and death ...you cant ruin it no matter how much part of generation nothingess you are,,

Baseless statement saying nothing

gh15 approved

Stick to illegal drug advice and comments please

Ag approved
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 11:07:52 AM
Evolution has no drive. Evolution has no goal.
Evolution is RANDOM chance.

Yes you're right. I could've worded it better.

EDIT: Wrong.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: MAXX on May 17, 2011, 11:08:33 AM
I have already told you guys this long time ago.  :)

There is no proof of a god. The idea of a god and afterlife is just something made up by humans to take comfort in the idea of their own death. What is a "god" anyways? Something all knowing and creator of everything? Silly... Solid evidence shows that things come to by evolving.


Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: gh15 on May 17, 2011, 11:14:29 AM
Stick to illegal drug advice and comments please

Ag approved

well,, this is personal belif ,,and im tellin you god exist,,and so are his angles,,everyone can be an angel depending on what they did on this earth ,,this is PERSONAL BELIF,,i belive some dogs are angels ,,i believe some people are angles,,they dont have to die before their time to be angles,,angels will come and go out of your life and you will meet them all upon your passing,,you yourself maybe an angel to someone and you wont know it until you pass on,,angels do live their life differenly than the norm with out knowing they are angels


i believe in this strongly,,



gh15 approved
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 11:15:45 AM
Evolution has no drive. Evolution has no goal.
Evolution is RANDOM chance.
Evolution IS NOT RANDOM CHANCE. Evolution DOES HAVE a drive, that Drive is Natural Selection.

  Evolution is the outcome of non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: suckmymuscle on May 17, 2011, 11:18:19 AM
He's entitled to his opinion. He's writing a book you know, needs the controversy to help promote it. Plus he's just pissed off because every time he has to go to the bathroom he shits himself. God's sense of humor at work :)

  Yes, because the "all loving" God punishes people who disbelieve in him and don't bow down in humiliation to him with horrendous physical deformities. With such a God, who needs the Devil?

SUCKMYMUSCLE
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 11:18:19 AM
Evolution IS NOT RANDOM CHANCE. Evolution DOES HAVE a drive, that Drive is Natural Selection.

  Evolution is the outcome of non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.

Isn't that something you can only say in hindsight though?

I'm in a way agreeing with both of you.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 11:20:38 AM
Yes you're right. I could've worded it better.
Wrong you are mistaken.  Evolution is certainly not a random process.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat01.html

   7. Is evolution a random process?   

     Evolution is not a random process. The genetic variation on which natural selection acts may occur randomly, but natural selection itself is not random at all. The survival and reproductive success of an individual is directly related to the ways its inherited traits function in the context of its local environment. Whether or not an individual survives and reproduces depends on whether it has genes that produce traits that are well adapted to its environment.


Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 11:23:33 AM
Wrong you are mistaken.  Evolution is certainly not a random process.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat01.html

   7. Is evolution a random process?   

     Evolution is not a random process. The genetic variation on which natural selection acts may occur randomly, but natural selection itself is not random at all. The survival and reproductive success of an individual is directly related to the ways its inherited traits function in the context of its local environment. Whether or not an individual survives and reproduces depends on whether it has genes that produce traits that are well adapted to its environment.




Yeah that was sorta dumb of me to say he was right about random chance. I was more focused on the 'drive' part and didn't think it through.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 17, 2011, 11:24:03 AM
Arnold is King!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 11:24:49 AM
Isn't that something you can only say in hindsight though?

I'm in a way agreeing with both of you.
You can`t agree that Evolution is just a random process.  Its not. Life does not arise and change randomly as Christians want you to believe.

Natural Selection drives evolution, thus ensuring that it is non-random.  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Parker on May 17, 2011, 11:24:59 AM
Ahh yes, a man who's never been to Heaven, telling me it doesn't exist, sounds very logical, doesn't it?
That's like me saying Ferraris are total shit and drive terribly and Bugattis are overpriced, after never having one, sitting in one, or driving one, let alone even seeing one...

If anything Heaven and Hell are probably dimensions---the spirit realm or astral plane. Weren't proponents of String atheory trying to prove that there are at least 11 diff dimensions within our own? Who is to say that Heaven  is not one of them...

Maybe Hawking's version of Heaven, is that there is no Heaven. Therefore he can be rewarded solely based upon his achievements in the sciences by man, and not by GOD...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Coach is Back! on May 17, 2011, 11:25:06 AM
stephen swalking is one miserble sob,,ofcourse he say thee is no heaven...anyone who got such punishment from god to sit in that wheelchair of his looking like that would say there is no heaven... look at the quality of his life,,misereble fucktard,,

there is god ,,and there is heaven,, it is personal to each and every one,,the problem with people is they expect miricle every sunday,,they dont get it that miricle only happen when REALLY REALLY needed,, the interference is individual not general,,the miricles dont happen for a group ,,it is happening individualy ,,each and his and her god ,,

the older you become the better you understand it  ,,you never understand it completrely until you die,,when you die its too late to tell anyone,, thats the beauty in life and death ...you cant ruin it no matter how much part of generation nothingess you are,,

gh15 approved

Holy Crap I actually agree with this.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 11:25:21 AM
most occidentals new "god" are anti depressants and TV nowadays.

I guess true anus dont want to reproduce cause he knows he doesnt have enough physical and personality traits that are well adapted to his environment.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 11:25:49 AM
You can`t agree that Evolution is just a random process.  Its not. Life does not arise and change randomly as Christians want you to believe.

Natural Selection drives evolution, thus ensuring that it is non-random.  

See previous post. I messed up.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 11:25:59 AM
Yeah that was sorta dumb of me to say he was right about random chance. I was more focused on the 'drive' part and didn't think it through.
Ah, I got ya now.  Just a little oversight was all.  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 11:28:09 AM
stephen swalking is one miserble sob,,ofcourse he say thee is no heaven...anyone who got such punishment from god to sit in that wheelchair of his looking like that would say there is no heaven... look at the quality of his life,,misereble fucktard,,

there is god ,,and there is heaven,, it is personal to each and every one,,the problem with people is they expect miricle every sunday,,they dont get it that miricle only happen when REALLY REALLY needed,, the interference is individual not general,,the miricles dont happen for a group ,,it is happening individualy ,,each and his and her god ,,

the older you become the better you understand it  ,,you never understand it completrely until you die,,when you die its too late to tell anyone,, thats the beauty in life and death ...you cant ruin it no matter how much part of generation nothingess you are,,

gh15 approved

loco approved
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 11:35:01 AM
most occidentals "god" are anti depressants nowadays.

I guess true anus dont want to reproduce cause he knows he doesnt have enough physical and personality traits that are well adapted to his environment.

Just because something is genetic does not mean we can`t fix or change it.  We aren`t always shackled to our genetics as we have overcome and wiped out many diseases, found ways around our limitations through invention, birth control and so forth.

As the great Steven Pinker says, If my genes don`t like it, they can go jump in the lake.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Earl1972 on May 17, 2011, 11:37:43 AM
All I know is that most Christians seem more at peace with themselves as opposed to atheists who just seem flat out miserable.

dumb people are always happy because they are too dumb to know better ;)

E
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 11:38:29 AM
most occidentals new "god" are anti depressants and TV nowadays.

I guess true anus dont want to reproduce cause he knows he doesnt have enough physical and personality traits that are well adapted to his environment.

You have a lot of learning to do.



http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/PinkerReason.html

Steven Pinker: I don’t think evolution did design us to reproduce. Evolution designed us to enjoy sex and to love children. Well, our children, anyway. There is a fallacy that people easily slip into, especially when they hear explanations of evolution that use the metaphor of the "motives" of genes. It’s easy to confuse the metaphorical motives of the genes with the real motives of the whole person.

There’s some pedagogical advantage to putting yourself in the mind-set of the genes -- to think that genes are driven by this supposed desire to make copies of themselves. But it’s important not to confuse that with what people want to do. I don’t think most people want to make copies of themselves. The way the genes accomplish their metaphorical motive of making copies of themselves is wiring the brain to like sex and to love little children. In a world without contraception, that’s enough to get genes to make copies of themselves. If you change the world to one with contraception, and adoption, and many other things that sever these old cause-and-effect contingencies, then you can have the same desires but they do not necessarily result in babies.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: slacker on May 17, 2011, 11:39:58 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven


Stephen Hawking: 'There is no heaven; it's a fairy story'
In an exclusive interview with the Guardian, the cosmologist shares his thoughts on death, M-theory, human purpose and our chance existence


 Sunday 15 May 2011 22.00 BST


Stephen Hawking dismisses belief in God in an exclusive interview with the Guardian.
A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.

In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.

Hawking, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at the age of 21, shares his thoughts on death, human purpose and our chance existence in an exclusive interview with the Guardian today.

The incurable illness was expected to kill Hawking within a few years of its symptoms arising, an outlook that turned the young scientist to Wagner, but ultimately led him to enjoy life more, he has said, despite the cloud hanging over his future.

"I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first," he said.

"I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," he added.

Hawking's latest comments go beyond those laid out in his 2010 book, The Grand Design, in which he asserted that there is no need for a creator to explain the existence of the universe. The book provoked a backlash from some religious leaders, including the chief rabbi, Lord Sacks, who accused Hawking of committing an "elementary fallacy" of logic.

The 69-year-old physicist fell seriously ill after a lecture tour in the US in 2009 and was taken to Addenbrookes hospital in an episode that sparked grave concerns for his health. He has since returned to his Cambridge department as director of research.

The physicist's remarks draw a stark line between the use of God as a metaphor and the belief in an omniscient creator whose hands guide the workings of the cosmos.

In his bestselling 1988 book, A Brief History of Time, Hawking drew on the device so beloved of Einstein, when he described what it would mean for scientists to develop a "theory of everything" – a set of equations that described every particle and force in the entire universe. "It would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we should know the mind of God," he wrote.

The book sold a reported 9 million copies and propelled the physicist to instant stardom. His fame has led to guest roles in The Simpsons, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Red Dwarf. One of his greatest achievements in physics is a theory that describes how black holes emit radiation.

In the interview, Hawking rejected the notion of life beyond death and emphasised the need to fulfil our potential on Earth by making good use of our lives. In answer to a question on how we should live, he said, simply: "We should seek the greatest value of our action."

In answering another, he wrote of the beauty of science, such as the exquisite double helix of DNA in biology, or the fundamental equations of physics.

Hawking responded to questions posed by the Guardian and a reader in advance of a lecture tomorrow at the Google Zeitgeist meeting in London, in which he will address the question: "Why are we here?"

In the talk, he will argue that tiny quantum fluctuations in the very early universe became the seeds from which galaxies, stars, and ultimately human life emerged. "Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in," he said.

Hawking suggests that with modern space-based instruments, such as the European Space Agency's Planck mission, it may be possible to spot ancient fingerprints in the light left over from the earliest moments of the universe and work out how our own place in space came to be.

His talk will focus on M-theory, a broad mathematical framework that encompasses string theory, which is regarded by many physicists as the best hope yet of developing a theory of everything.

M-theory demands a universe with 11 dimensions, including a dimension of time and the three familiar spatial dimensions. The rest are curled up too small for us to see.

Evidence in support of M-theory might also come from the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at Cern, the European particle physics laboratory near Geneva.

One possibility predicted by M-theory is supersymmetry, an idea that says fundamental particles have heavy – and as yet undiscovered – twins, with curious names such as selectrons and squarks.

Confirmation of supersymmetry would be a shot in the arm for M-theory and help physicists explain how each force at work in the universe arose from one super-force at the dawn of time.

Another potential discovery at the LHC, that of the elusive Higgs boson, which is thought to give mass to elementary particles, might be less welcome to Hawking, who has a long-standing bet that the long-sought entity will never be found at the laboratory.

Hawking will join other speakers at the London event, including the chancellor, George Osborne, and the Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz.

Science, truth and beauty: Hawking's answers

What is the value in knowing "Why are we here?"

The universe is governed by science. But science tells us that we can't solve the equations, directly in the abstract. We need to use the effective theory of Darwinian natural selection of those societies most likely to survive. We assign them higher value.

You've said there is no reason to invoke God to light the blue touchpaper. Is our existence all down to luck?

Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in.

So here we are. What should we do?

We should seek the greatest value of our action.

You had a health scare and spent time in hospital in 2009. What, if anything, do you fear about death?

I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first. I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.

What are the things you find most beautiful in science?

Science is beautiful when it makes simple explanations of phenomena or connections between different observations. Examples include the double helix in biology, and the fundamental equations of physics."

::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Cliff Clavin on May 17, 2011, 11:41:24 AM
Ahh yes, a man who's never been to Heaven, telling me it doesn't exist, sounds very logical, doesn't it?


how is that any different than a person of religion claiming there IS a heaven?appears to be one in the same.doesn't it?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Coach is Back! on May 17, 2011, 12:00:36 PM
Anyone see any similarities between Stephen Hawking and Christopher Hitchens?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 12:02:40 PM
one thing is sure true anus, with your nihilistic logic "jizzabelle" is going to need anti depressants while slowly becoming nevrotic if she stays with you and under your influence. Maybe she ll find a real man with a job and education, values to teach -when obviously you have none- who actually enjoys life and wants kids?

Also your dogs are only a way for you to dominate other living beings because you feel oppressed by the needs of growing up, and maybe even because you were -and still are- under the control of an incestuous -psychological incest- domination by your mother.

You ll end alone with dogs obviously. No woman is going to repress her biological needs all life long. And if she does... good luck living with such a depressed person in their 60s and beyond.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 12:04:51 PM
one thing is sure true anus, with your nihilistic logic "jizzabelle" is going to need anti depressants while slowly becoming nevrotic if she stays with you and under your influence. Maybe she ll find a real man with a job and education, values to teach -when obviously you have none- who actually enjoys life and wants kids?
Incorrect.  I absolutely adore life and everything contained therein.  Jezebelle also cannot stand kids and despises them which is a huge plus.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: 240 is Back on May 17, 2011, 12:05:55 PM
Anyone see any similarities between Stephen Hawking and Christopher Hitchens?

they're both highly intelligent pessimists.

bottom line is that there are plenty of things in this world we cannot explain.  neither religious people nor athiests "know" anything for sure.  We should believe whatever it is that allows us to have the best possible existence.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 12:06:48 PM
Incorrect. I absolutely adore life and everything contained therein.  Jezebelle also cannot stand kids and despises them which is a huge plus.

yeah, it's quite obvious for everyone who ve read your posts on here since years now lol...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 12:07:53 PM
they're both highly intelligent pessimists.

bottom line is that there are plenty of things in this world we cannot explain.  neither religious people nor athiests "know" anything for sure.  We should believe whatever it is that allows us to have the best possible existence.
as long as it doesnt hurt others people (decreases their odds of survival).
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: 240 is Back on May 17, 2011, 12:10:50 PM
as long as it doesnt hurt others people.

true that.   stringing people up because they believe differently is a no-no.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Coach is Back! on May 17, 2011, 12:11:12 PM
Besides that 240, my thought is they're both suffering for a reason!!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Skeletor on May 17, 2011, 12:11:18 PM
Ignorant Hawking will be punished in 4 days when the (loving) god ends the world.. Repent and submit to mass hysteria.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 12:11:32 PM
one thing is sure true anus, with your nihilistic logic "jizzabelle" is going to need anti depressants while slowly becoming nevrotic if she stays with you and under your influence. Maybe she ll find a real man with a job and education, values to teach -when obviously you have none- who actually enjoys life and wants kids?

Also your dogs are only a way for you to dominate other living beings because you feel oppressed by the needs of growing up, and maybe even because you were -and still are- under the control of an incestuous -psychological incest- with your mother.

You ll end alone with dogs obviously.
The dogs actually dominate and absolutely PWN our existence.  I treat them like royalty and I can assure you live in luxury that you will never know of or taste.  I would never punish my animals ever or even raise my voice to them as they are perfect specimens.  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Parker on May 17, 2011, 12:11:48 PM
how is that any different than a person of religion claiming there IS a heaven?appears to be one in the same.doesn't it?
Quite true, but even shaman and the late great Edgar Cacey has said that there is a Great Beyond...before there was organized religion, shaman and various other "spiritual people" have stated that there is a afterlife, I firmly believe (and that science will prove) that it is just another dimension that sits along side of us...and that there is a spirit realm (hence the reaso why kids and "sensitives" can see entities, whereas closed minded people cannot)--now whether or not that good people all go to Heaven and bad people go to Hell, the jury is still out---it's based upon some mankind reward/punishment bullshit to keep people in line...
Many people who have done DTM and have access to astral plane have stated that "spirits" who are manevolent, benevolent, or in the middle---were the same types of people in life--which makes sense..
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 12:14:00 PM
one thing is sure true anus, with your nihilistic logic "jizzabelle" is going to need anti depressants while slowly becoming nevrotic if she stays with you and under your influence. Maybe she ll find a real man with a job and education, values to teach -when obviously you have none- who actually enjoys life and wants kids?

Also your dogs are only a way for you to dominate other living beings because you feel oppressed by the needs of growing up, and maybe even because you were -and still are- under the control of an incestuous -psychological incest- domination by your mother.

You ll end alone with dogs obviously. No woman is going to repress her biological needs all life long. And if she does... good luck living with such a depressed person in their 60s and beyond.
For instance, yesterday I bathed Darwin, the male, and I used 48 dollar shampoo and conditioner on him because he likes rose extract and the way it smells.  I bet you have never washed yourself with anything other than the "cheap stuff" at the store.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 12:17:05 PM
as long as it doesnt hurt others people (decreases their odds of survival).
Wrong.  You meant to say, infringe upon their rights in any way.

If we went by your rationale we could go around torturing and assaulting and stealing from whoever we wish as those things don`t necessarily decrease odds of survival.

Please edit correctly next time or educate yourself a bit.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 12:19:22 PM
true that.   stringing people up because they believe differently is a no-no.
being an atheist is being opposed/ at war against religious people , this is the funny part of the whole thing.

And trying to convince religious people that they are morons, insulting them is doing exactly to them what they did to atheists. The never ending circle.

Fact is atheists are believers. They believe in science, and often in hedonism, materialism and a patchwork of philosophical (epicurian most of the time) psychological and psychanalatical principles they ve been exposed to randomly thru their life and contacts. Most of them cannot sustain a couple for life, often divorce, often sink into different kind of addictions, neglect their kids, are on anti depressants and are the ones injecting steroids, getting boob jobs and plastic surgery. To each his own religion right?

Human psychism is always based, built mainly on

-The core beliefs of the mother
-The beliefs of the father then other family members which add  and reinforce themselves to the original, fundamental ones coming from the mother and shape a more developed and balanced system of beliefs
-The beliefs and influences of the surrounding world / environment (friends, tv internet), which are themselves filtered by the initial core system of values learned from the main caregivers during childhood and adolescence

Basically what you think is what your memory and brain have stocked subconsciously since birth -and before-. Our brains contain thoughts, impulses, tendances, that go far beyond what we ve consciously learn. Basically there are patterns we re following that come from our grand parents , grand grand parents etc etc and so on and are stocked in our subconscious. Hence the repetition of patterns.


When parents are separated, there are various versions, beliefs, influences on key topics that fight each others constantly, no unity in the development of a kid's psychism, basically the conscious and subconscious beliefs in conflict of his genitors/main caregivers are stuck in his/her head forever. These kids and then adults often have low natural serotonin and dopamin levels in the brain and are pessimistic and cynical. Your consciousness and your subconsciousness are the sum of the subconscious and conscious of the people you ve been raised by mainly, and the people you met and interacted with. But the core of your consciousness and subconscious are preprogrammed by what your mother, family told you, and by what you inherited genetically and has been selected by evolution. We all follow predetermined patterns which are engraved in our brains. We have no other purpose but to follow these patterns and perpetuate them. Some will say it makes no sense, some will tell you that it's an opportunity to be happy or sad, to "feel".

People raised by caring parents who stayed together are happier, are designed by genetics and conditionnings to develop higher natural level of serotonin and dopamin in the brain.


Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Earl1972 on May 17, 2011, 12:20:24 PM
one thing is sure true anus, with your nihilistic logic "jizzabelle" is going to need anti depressants while slowly becoming nevrotic if she stays with you and under your influence. Maybe she ll find a real man with a job and education, values to teach -when obviously you have none- who actually enjoys life and wants kids?


you're always lecturing people on enjoying life

do you enjoy life?

maybe you do, but it doesn't come off that way around here

E
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 17, 2011, 12:24:32 PM
I'm still having faith that Santa Claus is real. After all, no-one can know for sure.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Griffith on May 17, 2011, 12:25:53 PM
No-one cannot either prove or disprove that Heaven exists.

Just as no-one can prove or disprove that a Higher Being exists.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: YngiweRhoads on May 17, 2011, 12:26:19 PM
I'm still having faith that Santa Claus is real. After all, no-one can know for sure.

I know.


He's real.


Saw him at the mall a couple months back. Smelled of cheap cologne and whiskey.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Skeletor on May 17, 2011, 12:26:32 PM
I'm still having faith that Santa Claus is real. After all, no-one can know for sure.

Of course he is. Don't let non-believers tell you otherwise.
(http://www.edinburghguide.com/files/images/santas.preview.jpg)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 12:26:42 PM
you're always lecturing people on enjoying life

do you enjoy life?

maybe you do, but it doesn't come off that way around here

E
He doesn`t really have any worthwhile or memorable experiences behind him so there is little solace he can find in his current situation.  :-\
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 17, 2011, 12:33:30 PM
Ahh yes, a man who's never been to Heaven, telling me it doesn't exist, sounds very logical, doesn't it?
That's like me saying Ferraris are total shit and drive terribly and Bugattis are overpriced, after never having one, sitting in one, or driving one, let alone even seeing one...

If anything Heaven and Hell are probably dimensions---the spirit realm or astral plane. Weren't proponents of String atheory trying to prove that there are at least 11 diff dimensions within our own? Who is to say that Heaven  is not one of them...

Maybe Hawking's version of Heaven, is that there is no Heaven. Therefore he can be rewarded solely based upon his achievements in the sciences by man, and not by GOD...

And men who have never been to heaven or hell are telling you it does ( exist ) and this sounds very logical to you?

what we do know for a fact , the bible and the stories contained within are oral traditions written down in the Bronze age , we're supposed to just take their word for it?

in the end God and Heaven are stories in a book written by men who claimed they were inspired by ' God ' and as a substitute for proof they offer ' faith ' that it is what they say it is

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: 240 is Back on May 17, 2011, 12:36:01 PM
i believe a creator wouldn't give mankind the ability (with our gray matter) to comprehend Him.

Knowing man, he'd try to destroy the creator or usurp his power, let's be honest.

You'd never invent a computer program or boardgame with the ability to understand or kill you, right?  Same thing here.  I think some energy or force is behind everything, but our little brittle brains can't comprehend it.  Especially when you realize that 2000 years ago, we were living in caves and huts and were pretty damn uncivilized.  in another 2000 years, people will look at us today and laugh their asses off... they'll have eternal life theu medical techniology, computers that do anything, nano for unlimited food, population controls... they'll see us as savages.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: noc on May 17, 2011, 12:38:38 PM
Ahh yes, a man who's never been to Heaven, telling me it doesn't exist, sounds very logical, doesn't it?
That's like me saying Ferraris are total shit and drive terribly and Bugattis are overpriced, after never having one, sitting in one, or driving one, let alone even seeing one...

Brilliant analogy  ::)

A five star luxury resort in the clouds verses a man made machine.

Once again, congratulations. 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 17, 2011, 12:40:09 PM
Adonis, Unberman doesnt need solace, he just doesnt agree with people who make it an agenda to belittle or demean others for having beliefs that make their lives more fulfilling or happy.

He's right Adonis, you come across as bitter highly cynical person.
There is no reason to condemn someone for believing something that enriches their life or makes them happier.
It has to bug you that they can believe something and it helps them enjoy life, and you can't, otherwise you woulnt make it such an agenda to attack believers
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Disgusted on May 17, 2011, 12:41:12 PM
You seem very angry lately ,Adonis.What is the reason for this?

Bi-polar for sure, easy to figure out by his post history.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 17, 2011, 12:41:58 PM
If there is a creator he/it/she would most certainly NOT be anything like the one described in the bible , a creator of the Universe/Multiverse and every single piece of matter within would most certainly NOT give a flying fuck if you masturbate or marry another of the same sex etc

if the God of the bible exists I sure as fuck wouldn't follow it forget worship it
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Disgusted on May 17, 2011, 12:50:05 PM
If I come across as angry, which I am certainly not, I do apologize.  I must confide that I am incredibly ecstatic about my current circumstance as I believe I have followed Hawking`s wise advice "Seek the greatest value from your action".



This is not wise advice, it's actually nothing more than a feel good statement. There is no logical reason to believe that anyone has to "live life to the fullest" simply because we exist. In fact this is quite illogical. It's nothing more than a belief system much like religion for those who feel a need to find a valid reason for their existence. 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 12:52:04 PM
Adonis, Unberman doesnt need solace, he just doesnt agree with people who make it an agenda to belittle or demean others for having beliefs that make their lives more fulfilling or happy.

He's right Adonis, you come across as bitter highly cynical person.
There is no reason to condemn someone for believing something that enriches their life or makes them happier.
It has to bug you that they can believe something and it helps them enjoy life, and you can't, otherwise you woulnt make it such an agenda to attack believers
I don`t care one iota what someone thinks or believes, however why should their nonsensical belief system be free from insult or free from ridicule?  Why should it automatically earn a pedestal enclosed in glass with the words "Do not Touch" plastered all over it?

We can criticize everything under the sun, but when it comes to religion we are supposed to have a hands off policy?  Really?  Should we then not criticize Radical Islam and the Muslims who seek to establish the calaphate (directly from the Koran) and who use violence in the form of beheading, suicide bombings etc... to establish the goal as set out by the Koran?

Fuck that.  Its on and I don`t believe ANY idea or anything should be free from criticism, especially religion.  You mean to tell me if someone was going around worshiping Leprechauns you wouldn`t think that a bit odd and give them a little ribbing?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 12:57:09 PM
Adonis, Unberman doesnt need solace, he just doesnt agree with people who make it an agenda to belittle or demean others for having beliefs that make their lives more fulfilling or happy.

He's right Adonis, you come across as bitter highly cynical person.
There is no reason to condemn someone for believing something that enriches their life or makes them happier.
It has to bug you that they can believe something and it helps them enjoy life, and you can't, otherwise you woulnt make it such an agenda to attack believers
Does it bug you that it makes terrorists happy to engage in Violence to restore the Calaphate from the Koran, thus enhancing their life and to them enriching it?  It must bug you that they can believe something which helps them enjoy life.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 12:58:04 PM
I don`t care one iota what someone thinks or believes, however why should their nonsensical belief system be free from insult or free from ridicule?  Why should it automatically earn a pedestal enclosed in glass with the words "Do not Touch" plastered all over it?

We can criticize everything under the sun, but when it comes to religion we are supposed to have a hands off policy?  Really?  Should we then not criticize Radical Islam and the Muslims who seek to establish the calaphate (directly from the Koran) and who use violence in the form of beheading, suicide bombings etc... to establish the goal as set out by the Koran?

Fuck that.  Its on and I don`t believe ANY idea or anything should be free from criticism, especially religion.  You mean to tell me if someone was going around worshiping Leprechauns you wouldn`t think that a bit odd and give them a little ribbing?

I have seen now two days in a row, that you have either posted about physics or using someone else's writings on physics.  Do you have any education in physics or are you fronting that you actually know something about physics?  Just as this Hawkins has tried to imply that physics dispells religion but has not proof in where his physics came from?  Odd, huh? Oh wait, it just happened?  lol
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 17, 2011, 01:00:30 PM
No-one cannot either prove or disprove that Heaven exists.

Just as no-one can prove or disprove that a Higher Being exists.



Just as no one can disprove leprechauns exist, or pink elephants in leotards orbiting mars ..
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 01:01:30 PM
"Seek the greatest value from your action"

What is that supposed to mean anyway?  I'm pretty sure Hitler was seeking the greatest value from his action when he was ordering the execution of the disabled, the crippled, the Jews, etc.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 17, 2011, 01:01:44 PM
The problems I have with religious people is them pushing their beliefs on everyone else and trying to dictate policy based on it , abortions? God doesn't want them so YOU can't have them , pseudoscience ( creationism ) thought on equal foot with real science , gay marriage , stem cell research ( see abortion ) I mean I can go on and on but you get the point

most of the people I love believe in ' God ' I don't have a much of a problem with people believing in ' God ' but just the assholes pushing their agenda on the rest of us and I'm with Adonis religion should be criticized it shouldn't get a free pass 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 17, 2011, 01:03:19 PM
I don`t care one iota what someone thinks or believes, however why should their nonsensical belief system be free from insult or free from ridicule?  Why should it automatically earn a pedestal enclosed in glass with the words "Do not Touch" plastered all over it?

We can criticize everything under the sun, but when it comes to religion we are supposed to have a hands off policy?  Really?  Should we then not criticize Radical Islam and the Muslims who seek to establish the calaphate (directly from the Koran) and who use violence in the form of beheading, suicide bombings etc... to establish the goal as set out by the Koran?

Fuck that.  Its on and I don`t believe ANY idea or anything should be free from criticism, especially religion.  You mean to tell me if someone was going around worshiping Leprechauns you wouldn`t think that a bit odd and give them a little ribbing?
There is a difference between a ribbing., and yOur obvious agenda to demean and attempt to destroy someone elses beliefs because it's your way of making yourself feel superior to others.
Only reason you think like that is because you've aligned yourself with science, so you can try an mock anyone that attempts to do the same thing to you, that you do to them.
From reading your posts, it's obvious you are a very mean spirited cynical individual that enjoys putting others down to feel better about your own existence.

No one that says the things you do, does it because they're happy with their own existence.

I could give a fuck what you or others believe, and you dont see me ridiculing others for what they believe, just because I think I've got the right belief system figured out and everyone else is wrong, in your case science.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 01:05:29 PM
There is a difference between a ribbing., and yOur obvious agenda to demean and attempt to destroy someone elses beliefs because it's your way of making yourself feel superior to others.
Only reason you think like that is because you've aligned yourself with science, so you can try an mock anyone that attempts to do the same thing to you, that you do to them.
From reading your posts, it's obvious you are a very mean spirited cynical individual that enjoys putting others down to feel better about your own existence.

No one that says the things you do, does it because they're happy with their own existence.

I could give a fuck what you or others believe, and you dont see me ridiculing others for what they believe, just because I think I've got the right belief system figured out and everyone else is wrong, in your case science.

I have a master's in science and can tell you, there is no proof in where "our" science came from other than numbers.  But where did it all originate from?  People using "science" as proof is set proportional with Faith....and this boys and girls is what our religion is all about!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Howard on May 17, 2011, 01:05:40 PM
looks like someone is so depressed he wants everyone else to be as depressed as him before... dying.

A true humanist  :-\



oookaay....
I don't belong to any religion or follow any faith or dogma.
I would rather have doubts then believe in some invisible , imaginary friend.
I honestly have no idea what happens after we die or if we have an "after life"
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 17, 2011, 01:06:52 PM
Does it bug you that it makes terrorists happy to engage in Violence to restore the Calaphate from the Koran, thus enhancing their life and to them enriching it?  It must bug you that they can believe something which helps them enjoy life.
Only thing that bugs me, is that they try and push their beliefs on others, and encroach on others human rights, just like you do.

But you probably can't comprehend that youre soon the same things they do, by mocking and ridiculing others, you just do it passive aggresively.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 17, 2011, 01:09:20 PM
true anus , you cant be considered as superiorly intelligent, wiser than others, while attempting at the same time to tell them they are morons and that their feeling of "hapiness" is based on something that makes no sense to you -even trying to destroy it which is a sadistic endeavour, you take pleasure in someone else suffering-.

Again as proved by others on here already, you re just a cynical who cant love nor can be loved. But again i'm sure there are explanations and that it's not your fault, you re just the sum of what has spawned you and of the conditionnings you ve been exposed to...like everyone else. Some people just tend to be a lot less cynical and destructive than you, whatever their past traumas and actually help others and feel like they have something to give.

If you dont want kids it's because you consider you have nothing to teach them, to give them.... precisely because... Your parents didnt give it to you in the first place.

It's not like you re the only one. Lots of couples of young so called pseudo intellectuals nowadays in their 20s / 30 s who try to pass their fear of responsabilities and their sheer desire to stay immature for "wisdom". Happy people actually give their kids the will to have kids themselves. Obviously your parents didnt.  
You cant love because you havent been loved, as simple as that, you cannot reproduce what you didnt learn, what you havent been exposed to. Yet, you ve been looking for a woman to ... reproduce and im sure of it, ultimately build a family. Funny isnt it? Does jezebele hates kids as much as your own mother hated you?

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: dustin on May 17, 2011, 01:12:22 PM
He's entitled to his opinion. He's writing a book you know, needs the controversy to help promote it. Plus he's just pissed off because every time he has to go to the bathroom he shits himself. God's sense of humor at work :)

LMFAO I  how you Christians deny everything which is indisputable. Keep reading your fairy tales. Stephan Hawking has done far more for humanity than your lousy religion has.

Religion is poison. Your kind is a scourge and an embarrassment to humanity. If we're ever greeted by extra terrestrials lizards (same probability of Jesus or the Rapture, so you can't complain) we'll have to embarrassingly explain how some millions of pussies still take solace in their comforting bed time stories aka religion. It'll be a tough sell to convince them that you're not retards lol
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 01:16:56 PM
LMFAO I  how you Christians deny everything which is indisputable. Keep reading your fairy tales. Stephan Hawking has done far more for humanity than your lousy religion has.

Religion is poison. Your kind is a scourge and an embarrassment to humanity. If we're ever greeted by extra terrestrials lizards (same probability of Jesus or the Rapture, so you can't complain) we'll have to embarrassingly explain how some millions of pussies still take solace in their comforting bed time stories aka religion. It'll be a tough sell to convince them that you're not retards lol

Please explain to me how his theory of black holes emitting radiation or his theory on light speed travel through space or chemical drive, is giving back to humanity? And one more question, is a theory been proven?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 01:25:04 PM
Stephen Hawking has done far more for humanity than your lousy religion has.

Stephen Hawking has done far more for humanity than Christianity has, really?



"We atheists have to accept that most believers are better human beings"

Roy Hattersley
Monday September 12, 2005


Guardian

Hurricane Katrina did not stay on the front pages for long. Yesterday's Red Cross appeal for an extra 40,000 volunteer workers was virtually ignored.

The disaster will return to the headlines when one sort of newspaper reports a particularly gruesome discovery or another finds additional evidence of President Bush's negligence. But month after month of unremitting suffering is not news. Nor is the monotonous performance of the unpleasant tasks that relieve the pain and anguish of the old, the sick and the homeless - the tasks in which the Salvation Army specialise.

The Salvation Army has been given a special status as provider-in-chief of American disaster relief. But its work is being augmented by all sorts of other groups. Almost all of them have a religious origin and character.

Notable by their absence are teams from rationalist societies, free thinkers' clubs and atheists' associations - the sort of people who not only scoff at religion's intellectual absurdity but also regard it as a positive force for evil.

The arguments against religion are well known and persuasive. Faith schools, as they are now called, have left sectarian scars on Northern Ireland. Stem-cell research is forbidden because an imaginary God - who is not enough of a philosopher to realise that the ingenuity of a scientist is just as natural as the instinct of Rousseau's noble savage - condemns what he does not understand and the churches that follow his teaching forbid their members to pursue cures for lethal diseases.

Yet men and women who believe that the Pope is the devil incarnate, or (conversely) regard his ex cathedra pronouncements as holy writ, are the people most likely to take the risks and make the sacrifices involved in helping others. Last week a middle-ranking officer of the Salvation Army, who gave up a well-paid job to devote his life to the poor, attempted to convince me that homosexuality is a mortal sin.

Late at night, on the streets of one of our great cities, that man offers friendship as well as help to the most degraded and (to those of a censorious turn of mind) degenerate human beings who exist just outside the boundaries of our society. And he does what he believes to be his Christian duty without the slightest suggestion of disapproval. Yet, for much of his time, he is meeting needs that result from conduct he regards as intrinsically wicked.

Civilised people do not believe that drug addiction and male prostitution offend against divine ordinance. But those who do are the men and women most willing to change the fetid bandages, replace the sodden sleeping bags and - probably most difficult of all - argue, without a trace of impatience, that the time has come for some serious medical treatment. Good works, John Wesley insisted, are no guarantee of a place in heaven. But they are most likely to be performed by people who believe that heaven exists.

The correlation is so clear that it is impossible to doubt that faith and charity go hand in hand. The close relationship may have something to do with the belief that we are all God's children, or it may be the result of a primitive conviction that, although helping others is no guarantee of salvation, it is prudent to be recorded in a book of gold, like James Leigh Hunt's Abu Ben Adam, as "one who loves his fellow men". Whatever the reason, believers answer the call, and not just the Salvation Army. When I was a local councillor, the Little Sisters of the Poor - right at the other end of the theological spectrum - did the weekly washing for women in back-to-back houses who were too ill to scrub for themselves.

It ought to be possible to live a Christian life without being a Christian or, better still, to take Christianity à la carte. The Bible is so full of contradictions that we can accept or reject its moral advice according to taste. Yet men and women who, like me, cannot accept the mysteries and the miracles do not go out with the Salvation Army at night.

The only possible conclusion is that faith comes with a packet of moral imperatives that, while they do not condition the attitude of all believers, influence enough of them to make them morally superior to atheists like me. The truth may make us free. But it has not made us as admirable as the average captain in the Salvation Army.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5283079-103390,00.html
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Butterbean on May 17, 2011, 01:28:14 PM
I don`t care one iota what someone thinks or believes, however why should their nonsensical belief system be free from insult or free from ridicule?  



So you do care or you don't?



Adonis, do you agree w/Hawking that quantum fluctuations are the "seeds" that started it all?  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 01:29:41 PM



Adonis, do you agree w/Hawking that quantum fluctuations are the "seeds" that started it all?  


And if so, please "PROVE" this theory.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Emmortal on May 17, 2011, 01:30:52 PM
Everything he proposed about Black Holes was wrong.  Hawking isn't even considered by his peers to be even in the top 10 physicists alive today.  While he's a smart chap, not exactly the first guy I'd turn to when theorizing about anything more complex than making a PB&J.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Butterbean on May 17, 2011, 01:33:42 PM
And if so, please "PROVE" this theory.

Yes. 

And please explain where the quantum fluctuations came from.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 17, 2011, 01:35:42 PM
Yes. 

And please explain where the quantum fluctuations came from.



Please tell me where your God came from.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 01:35:47 PM
Stephen Hawking has done far more for humanity than your lousy religion has.

Stephen Hawking has done far more for humanity than Christianity has, really?


Contribution to World Literacy
There are Christian organizations which send missionaries to parts of the world where these missionaries translate the Bible into the locals' language and then teach them how to read it.  They also go into parts of the world where people have a spoken language, but no written language.  These organizations learn the spoken language, create a written language from it, then translate the Bible into this new written language, and finally teach these people their new written language.  Wycliffe Bible Translators is one of these Christian organizations.  



The Printing Press and its contribution to the rapid development in the sciences and art
Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press with replaceable/moveable wooden or metal letters in 1436 (completed by 1440). This method of printing can be credited not only for a revolution in the production of books, but also for fostering rapid development in the sciences, arts and religion through the transmission of texts.

Johannes Gutenberg is also accredited with printing the world's first book using movable type, the 42-line (the number of lines per page) Gutenberg Bible.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Butterbean on May 17, 2011, 01:38:05 PM
Please tell me where your God came from.

I believe He is eternal.  He did not have a beginning and will not have an end.


Do you subscribe to the quantum fluctuation theory?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 17, 2011, 01:39:30 PM
I believe He is eternal.  He did not have a beginning and will not have an end.


Do you subscribe to the quantum fluctuation theory?

Couldn't say I do because I don't understand it very well. Do you?

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 01:40:59 PM
Please tell me where your God came from.

To believe our universe "just happened" takes more faith than us believers!

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Skeletor on May 17, 2011, 01:42:22 PM
I believe He is eternal.  He did not have a beginning and will not have an end.

Who created it? Who or what is beyond/above it?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: XFACTOR on May 17, 2011, 01:43:15 PM
All I know is that most Christians seem more at peace with themselves as opposed to atheists who just seem flat out miserable.

Because you don't surround yourself with an educated, affluent mix of people.  

I should have figured you were Christian.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 17, 2011, 01:43:56 PM
To believe our universe "just happened" takes more faith than us believers!

But to believe that the Creator of the universe authored a book in a remote part of the world in a barren desert of a planet, one of billions and that this Creator is THE god, coeval with many other deities of the time is in fact the only god...of course, that is likely. ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Marty Champions on May 17, 2011, 01:44:02 PM
you cannot have a proper discussion without the falcon
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Parker on May 17, 2011, 01:45:28 PM
Funny thing is, he still sounds like a 1989 Texas Instruments "Speak n Spell", you'd think by now he'd champion human like voices...

Imagine him trying to tell a joke...and in that Speak n Spell voice saying "ha....ha...ha."
No wonder he is saying what he is saying, he wants everybody to be as crippled as he is...just because he is a "genius" doesn't give him a pass from being looked at like us mere mortals...in fact, he used to elicit pity, now, it seems that he is pissed off that he cannot run with busty women on a beach, but has to stay on the boardwalk in his motorized wheelchair, with brown pants and docksiders, while watching others do what he has dreamed to do, and his only comfort is "I'm smarter than them", and to that God says, "Ha...Ha...Ha"
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 01:47:44 PM
But to believe that the Creator of the universe authored a book in a remote part of the world in a barren desert of a planet, one of billions and that this Creator is THE god, coeval with many other deities of the time is in fact the only god...of course, that is likely. ::)

Do you have a better theory or is there a better theory that has a history of proven writings?  I work with physics everyday of my life and can not come close to seeing the logitical ties to science and a "it just happened".

God did not "need" to create the universe; he "chose" to create it.  WHY?  God is love, and love is best expressed toward something or someone else. God created the world in hhis expression of his love.  We should avoid reducing God's creation to merely scientific terms. Can you prove to someone you love them?  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Butterbean on May 17, 2011, 01:47:55 PM
Couldn't say I do because I don't understand it very well. Do you?



I've never explored it, so no.  In regard to his theory I want to know where he thinks the quantum fluctuations came from that he said started it all.  


Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 17, 2011, 01:53:11 PM
Do you have a better theory or is there a better theory that has a history of proven writings?  I work with physics everyday of my life and can not come close to seeing the logitical ties to science and a "it just happened".

God did not "need" to create the universe; he "chose" to create it.  WHY?  God is love, and love is best expressed toward something or someone else.  Can you prove to someone you love them?  

Others aside, my atheism is mostly grounded in history, particularly history of religion. Understanding that, I see no reason why Christianity should be more true than Hinduism or any other religion.

The history of Western monotheism can be studied, analysed and understood, when you understand that, it just seems silly to believe such things as you likely do.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 01:58:30 PM
Others aside, my atheism is mostly grounded in history, particularly history of religion. Understanding that, I see no reason why Christianity should be more true than Hinduism or any other religion.

The history of Western monotheism can be studied, analysed and understood, when you understand that, it just seems silly to believe such things as you likely do.

Please enlighten me as to why Western Monotheism makes Christianity look silly?  I work with a physician that is Hindu and we speak of his religion quite often, I do not look down on it, I actually find it a very peace, loving religion.  It may not be what I believe but there is no disparity between us as I would read your thread to say?

And might I assume that you are a theology major or a studier on your own?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 02:00:45 PM
Please enlighten me as to why Western Monotheism makes Christianity look silly?  I work with a physician that is Hindu and we speak of his religion quite often, I do not look down on it, I actually find it a very peace, loving religion.  It may not be what I believe but there is no disparity between us as I would read your thread to say?

And might I assume that you are a theology major or a studier on your own?

How do you interpret the bible?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 17, 2011, 02:02:29 PM
Please enlighten me as to why Western Monotheism makes Christianity look silly?  I work with a physician that is Hindu and we speak of his religion quite often, I do not look down on it, I actually find it a very peace, loving religion.  It may not be what I believe but there is no disparity between us as I would read your thread to say?

And might I assume that you are a theology major or a studier on your own?

I did not say that Western monotheism makes Christianity look silly; I said that upon understanding Western monotheism, Christianity looks silly.

History buff.

And as far as I can recall, Christianity requires the belief that all other religions are fatuous.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: johnnynoname on May 17, 2011, 02:04:59 PM
how did i know that this thread would make it this big so fast



there is nothing more cliche than a bunch of wanna be know it all's discussing religion/God/"theory" on the internet


seriously, how passe'
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 02:05:44 PM
How do you interpret the bible?

This is a simple and very effective question.....I go to a church where our preachers have their phd's in theology and study the different Latin versions of the various wording and we sit down in study groups to discuss....I would be the first to admit, I do not know near enough to actually be on here argueing about, but I do know a good bit about science and will discuss my beliefs with anyone that likes to sit down and discuss it.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tendonitis on May 17, 2011, 02:06:52 PM
how did i know that this thread would make it this big so fast



there is nothing more cliche than a bunch of wanna be know it all's discussing religion/God/"theory" on the internet


seriously, how passe'

well it had been about 10 minutes since the last thread about it
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Parker on May 17, 2011, 02:07:48 PM
how did i know that this thread would make it this big so fast



there is nothing more cliche than a bunch of wanna be know it all's discussing religion/God/"theory" on the internet


seriously, how passe'
Join in the fun... And stop listening to Handsome Boy Modeling School.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 02:08:51 PM
I did not say that Western monotheism makes Christianity look silly; I said that upon understanding Western monotheism, Christianity looks silly.

History buff.

And as far as I can recall, Christianity requires the belief that all other religions are fatuous.

Sorry, misinterpreted your thread.

And you are right, as a Christian, I believe that the only way to heaven is through my Christ, the Lord and Savior. However, I will not condemn another religion just because I do not agree.  They have their beliefs and what they feel is right, and I know what my heart tells me.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: johnnynoname on May 17, 2011, 02:09:53 PM
Join in the fun... And stop listening to Handsome Boy Modeling School.

why bother joining it

it's probably a "copy paste" fest of everything that Christopher Hitchen's guy wrote anyway

mind you, i'm only guessing- I haven't read any of this thread
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 17, 2011, 02:10:15 PM
Sorry, misinterpreted your thread.

And you are right, as a Christian, I believe that the only way to heaven is through my Christ, the Lord and Savior.  However, I will not condem another religion just because I do not agree.  They have their beliefs and what they feel is right, and I know what my heart tells me.

But you would concede that your Hindu friend holds incorrect beliefs, yes?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 02:11:02 PM
But you would concede that your Hindu friend holds incorrect beliefs, yes?

I would have to....but I do not condemn him for it.

What in your studies has led you to believe that there is no God?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 17, 2011, 02:14:44 PM


What in your studies has led you to believe that there is no God?

The Bible
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: johnnynoname on May 17, 2011, 02:15:01 PM
also, is this one of those threads where guys who went to school for a bullshit degree try to prove to other guys on the internet that it was worth the 8 years to write a thesis on Nuances of Modern Agnosticism in a Post Industrial Gesellshaft?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 02:15:42 PM
This is a simple and very effective question.....I go to a church where our preachers have their phd's in theology and study the different Latin versions of the various wording and we sit down in study groups to discuss....I would be the first to admit, I do not know near enough to actually be on here argueing about, but I do know a good bit about science and will discuss my beliefs with anyone that likes to sit down and discuss it.

So for example, do you believe there was a great flood? Basically, do you hold the bible to be literally true? If not, then on what basis do you pick and chose what to believe in?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 02:16:01 PM
The Bible

Could you elaborate more?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 17, 2011, 02:16:52 PM
Has anyone heard of this guy, Isaac Newton I think was his name. Fascinating fellow, seems to have invented infantismal calculus, and some other shit. Funny that he considered himself a theist first and foremost. But wait, I thought all intelligent/educated brainiac types were atheist! Guess not. Heard the name pascal? Oh hey, he was a very famous chemist! What did he have to say about God hmm let me see...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: johnnynoname on May 17, 2011, 02:17:32 PM
also, is this one of those threads where guys who went to school for a bullshit degree try to prove to other guys on the internet that it was worth the 8 years to write a thesis on Nuances of Modern Agnosticism in a Post Industrial Gesellshaft?


actually, I read this thread and I was right on both questions apparently.....it's just a know it all Hitchens fest
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 02:19:23 PM
Has anyone heard of this guy, Isaac Newton I think was his name. Fascinating fellow, seems to have invented infantismal calculus, and some other shit. Funny that he considered himself a theist first and foremost. But wait, I thought all intelligent/educated brainiac types were atheist! Guess not.

He also dabbled in alchemy and did not believe in the holy trinity.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 02:19:41 PM
So for example, do you believe there was a great flood? Basically, do you hold the bible to be literally true? If not, then on what basis do you pick and chose what to believe in?

I have to believe the entire Bible to be true.....lol.....and I have to say, being a sinner, you could pick out many areas that I fail miserably at following the word....as I get older and wiser I am trying to do better but I can say after my chemical induced body has led me to be a bit more irratable faster and my lust to be a big issue.  :)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 17, 2011, 02:21:45 PM
Others aside, my atheism is mostly grounded in history, particularly history of religion. Understanding that, I see no reason why Christianity should be more true than Hinduism or any other religion.

At least Christianity has contributed much more to India than Hinduism and Islam have.

South India is mostly Christian, and it has been for almost 2,000 years.  The average literacy rate of South India is considerably higher than the Indian national average.  

Indian Christians also have one of the highest literacy, work participation and sex ratio figures among the various religious communities in India.

http://geocommons.com/overlays/5030.html

http://www.theindiapost.com/articles/national-minority-status-for-jain-community-in-india/

http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Census_of_India::sub::Salient_Features

"People of Kerala are proud of the High literacy, of our state. When compared to Kerala, almost all the Indian states are far behind in the field of education. How we could achieve this covetable position? When the kings ruled Travancore, admission to Govt. Schools and Colleges was denied to the backward and scheduled caste communities. The Christian missionaries who established, educational institutions through out the length and breadth of Kerala opened the gated of their schools and colleges for everybody without looking into caste or creed. Thus the downtrodden section of the people of Kerala, got an opportunity to educate themselves in these institutions and they were able to secure high positions in the society and to inspire their communities about the need of getting educated."

http://www.eoabraham.com/contribution-of-christian-community-in-the-field-of-education-in-india/
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 02:22:20 PM
I have to believe the entire Bible to be true.....lol.....and I have to say, being a sinner, you could pick out many areas that I fail miserably at following the word....as I get older and wiser I am trying to do better but I can say after my chemical induced body has led me to be a bit more irratable faster and my lust to be a big issue.  :)

OK, so let me get this straight. You're a scientist. You care to an extent to find out the truth.

But yet you believe in the great flood? The talking snake? That the world was created in seven days?

EDIT: Six days.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 17, 2011, 02:23:25 PM
OK, so let me get this straight. You're a scientist. You care to an extent to find out the truth.

But yet you believe in the great flood? The talking snake? That the world was created in seven days?

six days , God rested on the 7th  ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: G_Thang on May 17, 2011, 02:26:00 PM


einstein would say he is mad because he is in chair.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Skeletor on May 17, 2011, 02:27:49 PM
six days , God rested on the 7th  ;D

He won't recover.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 02:31:04 PM
OK, so let me get this straight. You're a scientist. You care to an extent to find out the truth.

But yet you believe in the great flood? The talking snake? That the world was created in seven days?

EDIT: Six days.

And as a scientist, even with all the numbers and scientific "proof" is it truth?  I am getting ready to go analyze a radiation beam to check outputs...I have computers and software to analyze this energy, at the end of the day....is there proof what I am checking, do we "know" what we are working with or is this what has been branded a name by an human?  Thus, the X-ray... it was called X because he had no idea what he was dealing with, thus killing his wife in the process.

On that note, I am off to do our beam analysis, and I hope I don't cross a beam and cause a Big Boom and create another universe... :o   Check with you folks tomorrow.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 02:33:11 PM
And as a scientist, even with all the numbers and scientific "proof" is it truth?  I am getting ready to go analyze a radiation beam to check outputs...I have computers and software to analyze this energy, at the end of the day....is there proof what I am checking, do we "know" what we are working with or is this what has been branded a name by an human?  Thus, the X-ray... it was called X because he had no idea what he was dealing with, thus killing his wife in the process.



You avoided the question.

I smell creationism.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 17, 2011, 02:34:48 PM
You avoided the question.

I smell creationism.

I apologize, I thought I answered your question, yes I do believe in the Great Flood, it is in the Bible, correct?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 02:42:23 PM
I apologize, I thought I answered your question, yes I do believe in the Great Flood, it is in the Bible, correct?

Well alright, I just wanted to make sure.

To be a scientist and a creationist at the same time is to me beyond comprehension. Good luck with whatever it is that you do.. I've got nothing more to add.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 17, 2011, 02:45:36 PM
OK, so let me get this straight. You're a scientist. You care to an extent to find out the truth.

But yet you believe in the great flood? The talking snake? That the world was created in seven days?

EDIT: Six days.
OK, so let me get this straight. Something smaller then this dot. created everything( big bang) ::). All elements come from a single formation ::) (would be nice if hydrogen magically transformed into gold) Rocks produce living organism ::). Monkeys turned into humans ::). spontaneously beginning of life ::), sorry bro I'll go with the talking snake.... 8)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 02:47:46 PM
OK, so let me get this straight. Something smaller then this dot. created everything( big bang) ::). All elements come from a single formation ::) (would be nice if hydrogen magically transformed into gold) Rocks produce living organism ::). Monkeys turned into humans ::). spontaneously beginning of life ::), sorry bro I'll go with the talking snake.... 8)

 ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Jadeveon Clowney on May 17, 2011, 02:54:10 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 02:55:11 PM
true anus , you cant be considered as superiorly intelligent, wiser than others, while attempting at the same time to tell them they are morons and that their feeling of "hapiness" is based on something that makes no sense to you -even trying to destroy it which is a sadistic endeavour, you take pleasure in someone else suffering-.

Again as proved by others on here already, you re just a cynical who cant love nor can be loved. But again i'm sure there are explanations and that it's not your fault, you re just the sum of what has spawned you and of the conditionnings you ve been exposed to...like everyone else. Some people just tend to be a lot less cynical and destructive than you, whatever their past traumas and actually help others and feel like they have something to give.

If you dont want kids it's because you consider you have nothing to teach them, to give them.... precisely because... Your parents didnt give it to you in the first place.

It's not like you re the only one. Lots of couples of young so called pseudo intellectuals nowadays in their 20s / 30 s who try to pass their fear of responsabilities and their sheer desire to stay immature for "wisdom". Happy people actually give their kids the will to have kids themselves. Obviously your parents didnt.  
You cant love because you havent been loved, as simple as that, you cannot reproduce what you didnt learn, what you havent been exposed to. Yet, you ve been looking for a woman to ... reproduce and im sure of it, ultimately build a family. Funny isnt it? Does jezebele hates kids as much as your own mother hated you?


Wrong on all accounts once again.  I was given whatever I wanted from my parents from day one and they adored me until they died as I them.  They were truly brilliant people who never hesitated to provide in all areas.

 I do not want kids because I have better things to do and find them rather boring and annoying.  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 17, 2011, 02:57:50 PM
::)
Well you're acting like what you believe in is rational and logical and it's not... actually no belief can be rational, our brains aren't meant to comprehend or rationalize on what took place at the beginning of our universe. The very thought of what was before time will drive you nuts all we have is faith whether you believe in God or not
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 17, 2011, 03:01:16 PM
Wrong on all accounts once again.  I was given whatever I wanted from my parents from day one and they adored me until they died as I them.  They were truly brilliant people who never hesitated to provide in all areas.

 I do not want kids because I have better things to do and find them rather boring and annoying.  

You are right, kids are boring and annoying. As you were, a long time ago.

You raise them properly and someday they might be as cool and unique as you are today. However, if you are unwilling to go through the process, your could be children will never experience the joy of life.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 03:03:55 PM
Well you're acting like what you believe in is rational and logical and it's not... actually no belief can be rational, our brains aren't meant to comprehend or rationalize on what took place at the beginning of our universe. The very thought of what was before time will drive you nuts all we have is faith whether you believe in God or not

I don't have faith in that sense since I do not claim to know what was before time. I just simply do not know.

Do I think science is good at estimating the way our universe works? Yes. Can the estimates ever be 100% correct? No. But it's far better than the talking snake, that's for damn sure.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 17, 2011, 03:11:26 PM
I don't have faith in that sense since I do not claim to know what was before time. I just simply do not know.

Do I think science is good at estimating the way our universe works? Yes. Can the estimates ever be 100% correct? No. But it's far better than the talking snake, that's for damn sure.
Nothing exploding creating everything in the universe is a billion times more outrages then a billion talking snakes, think about it.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: HTexan on May 17, 2011, 03:17:29 PM
looks like someone is so depressed he wants everyone else to be as depressed as him before... dying.

A true humanist  :-\



oookaay....
So you think Stephen Hawking is mad at God?  ???
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 03:19:22 PM
Nothing exploding creating everything in the universe is a billion times more outrages then a billion talking snakes, think about it.

You obviously don't understand the big bang theory very well. There never was no 'nothing'(depends on how one defines it I guess) and there was no explosion either.

There's a ton of observations and physics that support the big bang theory. Where can I find the same for a billion talking snakes?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 17, 2011, 03:22:04 PM
So you think Stephen Hawking is mad at God?  ???

I would say he is a narcissist. It is impossible for him to accept another being as being more intelligent or powerful than he is.

I am sure he also refuses to accept that a God exists because if true, it would mean (in his eyes) that said being found him unworthy and decided he should live confined to a wheelchair.

Another possibility- Hawking has other feelings about the issue but will not say them publicly because he would be ostracized from the scientific community.

For example the popular thing to do the last few years is discredit Newton. Isaac fucking NEWTON! And why? Because he believed in God! In the scientific community a belief in God is akin to saying you are a retarded. Even if Hawking believed, he could never say so publicly.

We will find out on his deathbed.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: YngiweRhoads on May 17, 2011, 03:24:28 PM
You obviously don't understand the big bang theory very well. There never was no 'nothing'(depends on how one defines it I guess) and there was no explosion either.

There's a ton of observations and physics that support the big bang theory. Where can I find the same for a billion talking snakes?

Technically speaking, there is no such thing as 'nothing'. Yes, there is lots of evidence supporting inflation and zero evidence in support of a talking snake.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: sync pulse on May 17, 2011, 03:29:07 PM
Just to stir the kettle, I want to point out that the man who formulated the Big Bang Theory was a Roman Catholic Priest...Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître.

I am pointing this out not to make a point but to introduce agitation...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 17, 2011, 03:29:53 PM
You obviously don't understand the big bang theory very well. There never was no 'nothing'(depends on how one defines it I guess) and there was no explosion either.

There's a ton of observations and physics that support the big bang theory. Where can I find the same for a billion talking snakes?
Bro you obviously don't understand the big bang. I am reading my niece's grade 10 science text book as we speak "An explosion took place from a singualrity point creating the expansion of the known universe 13.7 billion years ago"
Just to stir the kettle, I want to point out that the man who formulated the Big Bang Theory was a Roman Catholic Priest...Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître.

I am pointing this out not to make a point but to introduce agitation...

urrrrr >:(
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: sync pulse on May 17, 2011, 03:32:23 PM
So you think Stephen Hawking is mad at God?  ???

Don't know about Stephen Hawking,...But I know I certainly am...That is the point behind the movie "Amadeus"...Salieri was bitter at God...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 17, 2011, 03:36:26 PM
Bro you obviously don't understand the big bang. I am reading my niece's grade 10 science text book as we speak "An explosion took place from a singualrity point creating the expansion of the known universe 13.7 billion years ago"urrrrr >:(

That's funny, most books I've read make it a point to avoid the word 'explosion' and instead say inflation. There's a good reason for this.

Explosion means a very rapid expansion of particles through some sort of medium whether it be air, liquid or whatever you can think of. The main point is that those particles can never travel faster than the speed of light.

The universe expanded in a pace that was many, many, many times the speed of light because the space itself in between the particles inflated and it allowed the universe to expand the way it did. No explosion, inflation.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 17, 2011, 03:41:02 PM
That's funny, most books I've read make it a point to avoid the word 'explosion' and instead say inflation. There's a good reason for this.

Explosion means a very rapid expansion of particles through some sort of medium whether it be air, liquid or whatever you can think of. The main point is that those particles can never travel faster than the speed of light.

The universe expanded in a pace that was many, many, many times the speed of light because the space itself in between the particles inflated and it allowed the universe to expand the way it did. No explosion, inflation.
Actually this book is almost 20 years old, why are they still using it is beyond me.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: sync pulse on May 17, 2011, 03:48:03 PM
The device used by Bell Labs to discover the "Cosmic Background Radiation" that is the residue of the "Big Bang"...160 Gigahertz.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Rami on May 17, 2011, 04:41:09 PM
I'm gonna start with something more important.

Does anyone here actually grasp what really matters here, instead of just arguments? There is a lesson in this for people who think every answer is to be found in what the human mind can conceive from natural science.

If there is nothing else than this one single life, then all the more precious it is that we must care for each other and every living thing.

Instead I find many scientists to be callous and calculating, through out history also downright evil.


Comparing computer parts with human brains is very odd, computer parts doesn't have a self consciousness either. I know scientists can't live without thinking they know everything. But writing something off 100% is a scientific mistake.


Even if you revive someone that has been dead and frozen for 1000s of years wouldn't give you the answer either because their consciousness never really left the brain as it is still intact only no thought process. And you cant revives someone that is decomposed or cremated to ask them.


So I'm surprised a man like Stephen Hawking that has so much time to think would just write something off like that. So he is 100% sure based on natural science and what his mind can conceive within those boundaries?

Learn to live with unknowns. Even if it's a very small unknown it is still there or you are not being honest to yourself.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 17, 2011, 04:51:58 PM
I'm gonna start with something more important.

Does anyone here actually grasp what's really matters here, instead of just arguments? There is a lesson in this for people who think every answer is to be found in what the human mind can conceive from natural science.

If there is nothing else than this one single life, then all the more precious it is that we must care for each other and every living thing.

Instead I find many scientists to be callous and calculating, through out history also downright evil.


Comparing computer parts with human brains is very odd, computer parts doesn't have a self consciousness either. I know scientists can't live without thinking they know everything. But writing something off 100% is a scientific mistake.


Even if you revive someone that has been dead and frozen for 1000s of years wouldn't give you the answer either because their consciousness never really left the brain as it is still intact only no thought process. And you cant revives someone that is decomposed or cremated to ask them.


So I'm surprised a man like Stephen Hawking that has so much time to think would just write something off like that. So he is 100% sure based on natural science and what his mind can conceive within those boundaries?

Learn to live with unknowns. Even if it's a very small unknown it is still there or you are not being honest to yourself.

Ehhhhh what??? ???
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 17, 2011, 05:02:45 PM
Threads like this just make me sad cause I want so desperately for others to know Christ.  We sit here and call each other educated fools and uneducated sheep and achieve a zero sum game.  If you believe share your faith, share the love of Christ, talk about his gift of salvation, explain the scriptures as best you are able.  Don't, on the other hand, insult others even if they insult you or your Christian beliefs....be a representative for Christ, but at the same time defend your position in a loving, tactful way.  Christ has changed my heart and I love him for it....want others to know that same love.  I don't desire for others to spend an eternity without him. 

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.   Romans 10:9

God knows the contents of your heart so seek him with sincerity and he'll accept you with open arms.

Full assurance in the heart.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Rami on May 17, 2011, 05:05:00 PM
Ehhhhh what??? ???

see post.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on May 17, 2011, 05:13:19 PM
1 out of 100 humans on the planet are Psychopaths. Many have stated that they are the ones who run the planet. Psychopaths are not able to feel anxiety. Brilliant manipulators. 4% of all CEO's are psychopaths. And if I had to guess, I would bet the house that Stephen Hawking is 1 out of every 100. Its as if he is some kind of robot.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: 240 is Back on May 17, 2011, 05:14:06 PM
Psychopaths are not able to feel anxiety.

fascinating definition.  I have never looked at it like that.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on May 17, 2011, 05:20:45 PM
fascinating definition.  I have never looked at it like that.

Just saw a guy on John Stewart who wrote a book about it. He interviewed many psychopaths and got into their head. He said people with anxiety are the exact opposite of a psychopath.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: 240 is Back on May 17, 2011, 05:23:04 PM
Just saw a guy on John Stewart who wrote a book about it. He interviewed many psychopaths and got into their head. He said people with anxiety are the exact opposite of a psychopath.

great definition.  perfect.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: YngiweRhoads on May 17, 2011, 05:52:56 PM
It's empathy, not anxiety btw.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Rami on May 17, 2011, 05:58:07 PM
Just saw a guy on John Stewart who wrote a book about it. He interviewed many psychopaths and got into their head. He said people with anxiety are the exact opposite of a psychopath.

that would mean a lot of people on the opposite end of psychopaths are made into psychopaths themselves by way psychotropic medication. For example Xanax
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: cephissus on May 17, 2011, 05:58:44 PM
uberman is your name NOT a reference to nietzsche? ???
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: che on May 17, 2011, 05:58:54 PM
Threads like this just make me sad cause I want so desperately for others to know Christ.  We sit here and call each other educated fools and uneducated sheep and achieve a zero sum game.  If you believe share your faith, share the love of Christ, talk about his gift of salvation, explain the scriptures as best you are able.  Don't, on the other hand, insult others even if they insult you or your Christian beliefs....be a representative for Christ, but at the same time defend your position in a loving, tactful way.  Christ has changed my heart and I love him for it....want others to know that same love.  I don't desire for others to spend an eternity without him. 

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.   Romans 10:9

God knows the contents of your heart so seek him with sincerity and he'll accept you with open arms.

Full assurance in the heart.


 ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 06:02:03 PM
Bill Gates and Warren Buffet two atheists who have donated more money to charity than all churches combined.  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: che on May 17, 2011, 06:05:23 PM
Bill Gates and Warren Buffet two atheists who have donated more money to charity than all churches combined.  Hope this helps.

I find atheists just as annoying as fundamentalist christians
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Emmortal on May 17, 2011, 06:07:03 PM
I find atheists just as annoying as fundamentalist christians

Bingo.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 17, 2011, 06:20:50 PM
Bill Gates and Warren Buffet two atheists who have donated more money to charity than all churches combined.  Hope this helps.

Prove it.  They've got more money than  many churches too, but still...Prove your supposition, your from the hip shot in the dark. Where do churches get their money?  From members.  But really now, who gives a flying fuck if your words are true? 

These two guys can do whatever they want with their money. What they should do, is to give in secret.  Even the bible mentions this. 

Me? I'm an atheist who knows a few followers of the Christ that are sincere in their faith.   When you get right down to it, all that needs saying with regard to these two "atheist" gentlemen is this:  "The Widow's Mite".

As for Hawking.  Fuck that noise. Smart guy but a smart ass at times as well.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The True Adonis on May 17, 2011, 06:24:09 PM
Prove it.  They've got more money that  many churches too, but still...Prove your supposition, your from the hip shot in the dark. Where do churches get their money?  From members.  But really now, who gives a flying fuck if your words are true?  

These two guys can do whatever they want with their money. What they should do, is to give in secret.  Even the bible mentions this.  

Me? I'm an atheist who knows a few followers of the Christ that are sincere in their faith.   When you get right down to all that needs saying with regard to these two "atheist" gentlemen is this:  "The Widow's Mite".

As for Hawking.  Fuck that noise. Smart guy but a smart ass at times as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates

 Gates and his wife combined three family foundations into one to create the charitable Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, which is the largest transparently operated charitable foundation in the world.[66] The foundation allows benefactors access to information regarding how its money is being spent  unlike other major charitable organizations
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 17, 2011, 06:30:48 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates

 Gates and his wife combined three family foundations into one to create the charitable Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, which is the largest transparently operated charitable foundation in the world.[66] The foundation allows benefactors access to information regarding how its money is being spent  unlike other major charitable organizations

The Widow's Mite.  Simple, really.  He can give all he wants but until he gives, literally all he has (i.e., the aforementioned "Widow's Mite") his gift doesn't compare.  Just because one is an atheist doesn't make them unable to see the wisdom of the bible. 

Unless of course we are blinded by our own self righteousness.  It has happened to me, believe me.  However, fuck the queeran of islam as it contains nothing but shit and shit is for flies.  FTN. ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: che on May 17, 2011, 06:34:38 PM
There is no difference between the Koran  and the Holy Bible.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 17, 2011, 06:39:48 PM
There is no difference between the Koran  and the Holy Bible.

No difference?  Surely you jest?  Bullshit. But if that's what you choose to believe, so be it.  And I am referring primarily to the New Testament and the queeron.  Fuck islam. And  Hawking.  ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Maldoror on May 17, 2011, 06:56:36 PM
uberman is your name NOT a reference to nietzsche? ???

Interesting point: In one of his later works, Nietzsche 'proved' mathematically (!!!) his theory of eternal recurrence... So he didn't believe in eternal darkness, but in some kind of eternal loop. A life on repeat, forever. How terrible that must seem for a cripple like Hawking!!

Sorry for the digression.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: che on May 17, 2011, 07:11:37 PM
Interesting point: In one of his later works, Nietzsche 'proved' mathematically (!!!) his theory of eternal recurrence... So he didn't believe in eternal darkness, but in some kind of eternal loop. A life on repeat, forever. How terrible that must seem for a cripple like Hawking!!

Sorry for the digression.
Haha ,he didn't  prove shit.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dipadidu on May 17, 2011, 07:38:08 PM
oil is the only god for the usa. hope this helps!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: cephissus on May 17, 2011, 07:57:40 PM
Interesting point: In one of his later works, Nietzsche 'proved' mathematically (!!!) his theory of eternal recurrence... So he didn't believe in eternal darkness, but in some kind of eternal loop. A life on repeat, forever. How terrible that must seem for a cripple like Hawking!!

Sorry for the digression.

maybe you could tell me which work and section, exactly, this supposed proof is in?

i highly doubt you can.  in all i've read, he's only even mentioned mathematics a couple times...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Maldoror on May 17, 2011, 10:09:52 PM
maybe you could tell me which work and section, exactly, this supposed proof is in?

i highly doubt you can.  in all i've read, he's only even mentioned mathematics a couple times...

His attempted proofs were never published during his lifetime. They were mere notes, and can be read in some versions of the posthumous collection "The Will To Power". Heidegger commented on them extensively.

Other references to eternal recurrence, with psuedo-logical 'proofs', are mostly in Thus Spoke Zarathustra & The Gay Science.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 17, 2011, 11:00:34 PM
You can`t agree that Evolution is just a random process.  Its not. Life does not arise and change randomly as Christians want you to believe.

Natural Selection drives evolution, thus ensuring that it is non-random.  

lol dumbass  natural selection is not a force its a term describing an observed happening. there is no "natural selection" force, its just soemthing that happens.  yes, evolution is completely random in the scientific sense.  there is no cause and there is no purpouse, the mutations are widely varied and not pre selected, the surviving organisms are not pre determined and are completely determined bythe variables it encounters in its experience, all of which are randomly determined.



nature without god is entirely random makes zero sense and has zero purpuse. if there is no god then you dont exist, only a computer designed to replicate itself exists... no man, no inner occupant experiencing the experience. 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 17, 2011, 11:10:44 PM
this world is a necessary starting point for our young souls. without the hot and the cold, without the wet and the dry, without the joy and the pain, without the love and the sorrow, without trouble, turmoil, doubt, without loss without triumph without experiencing all of these things we can not appreciate God or his wisdom.


 the grand mystery of this life will seem so obvious once youve passed. 

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: cephissus on May 17, 2011, 11:41:43 PM
His attempted proofs were never published during his lifetime. They were mere notes, and can be read in some versions of the posthumous collection "The Will To Power". Heidegger commented on them extensively.

Other references to eternal recurrence, with psuedo-logical 'proofs', are mostly in Thus Spoke Zarathustra & The Gay Science.

Well, of those I've read The Gay Science and NOWHERE does he attempt a "proof," psuedo-logical or otherwise of eternal recurrence.  In fact, if I remember correctly he only writes about that idea once in that book, in the form of a story/parable.

Never once have I read something of his that even remotely resembles some sort of formal proof.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Firemuscle on May 17, 2011, 11:44:58 PM
 Heaven and hell are obviously man-made ideas.

 The idea of heaven and hell has mainly been used to control people and make them behave themselves.

 It's the only thing that kept the poor from dragging the rich out of their homes and murdering them hundreds of years ago.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 17, 2011, 11:45:44 PM
Well, of those I've read The Gay Science and NOWHERE does he attempt a "proof," psuedo-logical or otherwise of eternal recurrence.  In fact, if I remember correctly he only writes about that idea once in that book, in the form of a story/parable.

Never once have I read something of his that even remotely resembles some sort of formal proof.
nietzsche is garbage
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Maldoror on May 17, 2011, 11:52:23 PM
Cessiphus, it has been a while since I've read Nietzsche, but doesn't he attempt to claim in The Gay Science that:

-Energy is limited
-Energy is eternally active, but it can not create new forms
-Time is unlimited
-Space is unlimited
-Therefore energy, in its various manifestations, must repeat itself.

...That might have been in The Will to Power, though, with The Gay Science containing only a parable.
Anyway, he elucidates much further in TWTP. In Section 1063 thereof, Nietzsche states: "The law of the conservation of energy demands eternal recurrence."

And Hiedegger, as I mentioned, wrote a great deal on the subject & Nietzsche's attempted proofs.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: cephissus on May 18, 2011, 12:12:38 AM
i dunno about that, but in my opinion that aphorism in section 1063 is no more a proof than the law of conservation of energy itself.

i'm just saying he didn't write in a formal style.  if you want to attempt to formalize his works, i guess you could make some "proofs."
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 18, 2011, 02:42:28 AM
lol dumbass  natural selection is not a force its a term describing an observed happening. there is no "natural selection" force, its just soemthing that happens.  yes, evolution is completely random in the scientific sense.  there is no cause and there is no purpouse, the mutations are widely varied and not pre selected, the surviving organisms are not pre determined and are completely determined bythe variables it encounters in its experience, all of which are randomly determined.



nature without god is entirely random makes zero sense and has zero purpuse. if there is no god then you dont exist, only a computer designed to replicate itself exists... no man, no inner occupant experiencing the experience. 
Excellent post tbombz.
 8)
Heaven and hell are obviously man-made ideas.

 The idea of heaven and hell has mainly been used to control people and make them behave themselves.

 It's the only thing that kept the poor from dragging the rich out of their homes and murdering them hundreds of years ago.
First 2 points only your opinion, nothing more, last point, true
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Fallsview on May 18, 2011, 03:50:24 AM
THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: DK II on May 18, 2011, 04:03:56 AM
Proof of the "Super symmetry" theory:



























































(http://basketball.de/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=190)

(http://www.anabolic-steroids.blogspot.com/flex-wheeler.jpg)

(http://forum.bodybuildingpro.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=87&stc=1&d=1084938165)

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=163952.0;attach=188913;image)



 ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The Grim Lifter on May 18, 2011, 04:57:06 AM
Adonis posting this reeks of those fucking religious freaks posting their stuff proving there is a God! What's the difference?

Just because religion is only set up to control people doesn't mean there isn't a Creator.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Parker on May 18, 2011, 05:04:55 AM
THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Computer wore Tennis Shoes?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 18, 2011, 05:16:53 AM
That's funny, most books I've read make it a point to avoid the word 'explosion' and instead say inflation. There's a good reason for this.

Explosion means a very rapid expansion of particles through some sort of medium whether it be air, liquid or whatever you can think of. The main point is that those particles can never travel faster than the speed of light.

The universe expanded in a pace that was many, many, many times the speed of light because the space itself in between the particles inflated and it allowed the universe to expand the way it did. No explosion, inflation.

How many times have you seen energy converted to any living animated matter?  Your saying physics supports the Big Bang theory but never in physics has energy been converted in this manner....so I ask these believers to prove this phenomenon?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 18, 2011, 05:23:00 AM
When the scientist and Roman Catholic priest Georges Lemaître first proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory, Einstein initially dismissed the theory without thought or consideration, in part because it came from a priest and because it implied "Creation" and a "Creator."  

Einstein was quick to endorse both Lemaître and his theory only after Hubble confirmed the theory.


Georges Lemaître

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=313560.0;attach=355011;image)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Tito24 on May 18, 2011, 05:27:09 AM
When the scientist and Roman Catholic  lee priest first proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory, Einstein initially dismissed the theory without thought or consideration, in part because it came from a priest and because it implied "Creation" and a "Creator."  

Einstein was quick to endorse both Lemaître and his theory only after Hubble confirmed the theory.


Georges Lemaître

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=313560.0;attach=355011;image)

 ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 18, 2011, 05:29:54 AM
Bill Gates and Warren Buffet two atheists who have donated more money to charity than all churches combined.  Hope this helps.

False.  In the past 2,000 or so years, Christians have donated more money and time to charity than many Bill Gates and many Warren Buffets combined.

Christians do this because they want to follow Jesus' example and teachings.  But I see from your statement, and similar statements made by Richard Dawkins, that atheists donate to charity because they believe it is a pissing contest.  

Either way, I am glad that atheists donate to charity too, no matter their motivation.  This is good for the needy recipients of these donations.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 18, 2011, 05:31:01 AM
When the scientist and Roman Catholic priest Georges Lemaître first proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory, Einstein initially dismissed the theory without thought or consideration, in part because it came from a priest and because it implied "Creation" and a "Creator." 

Einstein was quick to endorse both Lemaître and his theory only after Hubble confirmed the theory.


Georges Lemaître

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=313560.0;attach=355011;image)

 ::)

Indeed!  Thank you!   ;)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: dogbowl on May 18, 2011, 05:35:17 AM
Quantum physics is weird, therefore Jesus is your Lord and Savior.

A religious person once had a valid scientific idea, therefore all his non-scientific ideas were also valid.


Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: dogbowl on May 18, 2011, 05:45:51 AM
lol dumbass  natural selection is not a force its a term describing an observed happening. there is no "natural selection" force, its just soemthing that happens.  yes, evolution is completely random in the scientific sense.  there is no cause and there is no purpouse, the mutations are widely varied and not pre selected, the surviving organisms are not pre determined and are completely determined bythe variables it encounters in its experience, all of which are randomly determined. 

the mutations are random, but the survival of the organisms is not random.

natural selection is a very cruel process.  if there is a god, he is a real sadist to do this to his creations
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 18, 2011, 06:34:59 AM
Quantum physics is weird, therefore Jesus is your Lord and Savior.

A religious person once had a valid scientific idea, therefore all his non-scientific ideas were also valid.




What makes his theories valid?  Where is the proof, no one person here is vaidating these scientist theory.....has anyone converted energy to an animate object and it became alive?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: YngiweRhoads on May 18, 2011, 08:54:05 AM
What makes his theories valid?  Where is the proof, no one person here is vaidating these scientist theory.....has anyone converted energy to an animate object and it became alive?

We don't know the answer 'yet' to certain questions, so let's fabricate an answer instead of attempting to discover why things are the way they are.








Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 18, 2011, 09:11:21 AM
We don't know the answer 'yet' to certain questions, so let's fabricate an answer instead of attempting to discover why things are the way they are.









The thing is, If you take a step back and really look, Science is just another belief structure that man has created, except it is based on observations that we use as evidence. (Thing is, the evidence we used is based on our ability to comprehend things. Sometimes there isnt a rational scientific explanation for everything. Some things are simply beyond human comprehension.)  ::)
There is an equal amount of faith in believe that the universe "inflated" as opposed to believing that their was a creator.
Really take a step back and think about it.
There is EXACTLY the same leap of faith in both theories.

To go a step further, whos to say that "dot" that inflated, wasnt inflated by the creator?
I believe that is what someone else in this thread was getting at.

Both theories, same leap of faith.
However, those who hide behind science, will denounce the other as "rediculous", even though their theory (sounds) equally rediculous when you look at it without bias.

To me, the fact that science and scientists believe that we as humans will be able to comprehend everything and explain everything, is tremendously arrogant in the face of how small and insignificant we are in the grand scheme of things. IMO some things are just beyond us, and while I do believe that we can and should try and explain and move science forward, often I find those who point to science as the-be-all-end-all as highly narcissistic, arrogant, pretentious, and most of all hypocritical people. Not always, but often, especially in the case of someone like Hawking.

My .02
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 18, 2011, 09:14:59 AM
The thing is, If you take a step back and really look, Science is just another belief structure that man has created, except it is based on observations that we use as evidence. (Thing is, the evidence we used is based on our ability to comprehend things. Sometimes there isnt a rational scientific explanation for everything. Some things are simply beyond human comprehension.)  ::)
There is an equal amount of faith in believe that the universe "inflated" as opposed to believing that their was a creator.
Really take a step back and think about it.
There is EXACTLY the same leap of faith in both theories.

To go a step further, whos to say that "dot" that inflated, wasnt inflated by the creator?
I believe that is what someone else in this thread was getting at.

Both theories, same leap of faith.
However, those who hide behind science, will denounce the other as "rediculous", even though their theory (sounds) equally rediculous when you look at it without bias.

To me, the fact that science and scientists believe that we as humans will be able to comprehend everything and explain everything, is tremendously arrogant in the face of how small and insignificant we are in the grand scheme of things. IMO some things are just beyond us, and while I do believe that we can and should try and explain and move science forward, often I those who put to science as the be all end all as highly narcissistic, arrogant, pretentious, and most of all hypocritical people. Not always, but often, especially in the case of someone like Hawking.

My .02

Bingo!  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 18, 2011, 10:25:28 AM
Bingo! 
x2
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 10:46:12 AM
Science is all about believing things with little or no evidence. Now let us all wackos have a group hug. Fucking idiots.  ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 18, 2011, 10:48:33 AM
Science is all about believing things with little or no evidence. Now let us all wackos have a group hug. Fucking idiots.  ::)
Way to prove my point.  ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 10:49:10 AM
the mutations are random, but the survival of the organisms is not random.

natural selection is a very cruel process.  if there is a god, he is a real sadist to do this to his creations
the survival of the organisms is random as well. what determines survival? random mutation interacting with the random environmental attributes. what causes the environmental conditions which determine which mutations survive? nothing, its all completely random.

what is cruel? is life cruel? would it be beter to experience life or to have never existed? no thing that has ever existed has any reason to complain, for their situation could have been worse and even more importantly they could have never even existed at all.


We don't know the answer 'yet' to certain questions, so let's fabricate an answer instead of attempting to discover why things are the way they are.


its not that we dont know the answer yet, its that there is no possible satisfactory answer except for God.

get that through your brain dummy
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 10:50:24 AM
Way to prove my point.  ::)

You had no fucking point.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tendonitis on May 18, 2011, 10:51:07 AM
x2

x3
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 18, 2011, 10:53:25 AM
You had no fucking point.
::)
My point is that even though the Big Bang theory requires the same leap of faith that believing in a creator does, people like YOU will instantly refer to them as a fucking idiot for having that same leap of faith in something different than what you do.

AND that people who denounce anything other than science many times are pretentious, arrogant, hypocritical, self righteous cock suckers.
Thanks for proving my point so eloquently.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 10:57:21 AM
I love you too, Shockwave.

By the way, I created the universe. You just have to have the same leap of faith as with anything else.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Rami on May 18, 2011, 10:58:08 AM
The one question I would like someone to answer is, why is there anything at all?

When according to natural science energy/matter can not be destroyed, only transformed.

Therefore it was around before big bang. And energy in one form or another have always existed according to the physical laws in natural science.
 

So how can there be anything if it was never created?


natural science is limited

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 11:00:47 AM
The one question I would like someone to answer is, why is there anything at all?

When according to natural science energy/matter can not be destroyed, only transformed.

Therefore it was around before big bang. And energy in one form or another have always existed according to the physical laws in natural science.
 

So how can there be anything if it was never created?


natural science is limited



its "hip" these days to be an athiest. they think they sound intelligent.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Rami on May 18, 2011, 11:08:19 AM
its "hip" these days to be an athiest. they think they sound intelligent.

yes I come to this understanding as well. not all, but many atheists falls into that thinking. To pretend to really know everything is just immature.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on May 18, 2011, 11:08:37 AM
Bill Gates money is going toward sterilization and depopulation of the globe. That might sound necessary to some but deeper down the Gates rabbit hole you go, the easier its see that Gates is in fact a psychopath who is responsible for extermination of bloodlines.

[ Invalid YouTube link ]
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Rami on May 18, 2011, 11:15:15 AM
Bill Gates money is going toward sterilization and depopulation of the globe. That might sound necessary to some but deeper down the Gates rabbit hole you go, the easier its see that Gates is in fact a psychopath who is responsible for extermination of bloodlines.

[ Invalid YouTube link ]


yes many of his donations or programs are questionable.

Granting money to research forced vaccinations through virus in mosquitoes etc.

The excuse is that this is a valuable experiment in the quest for ways to use mosquitoes to deliver vaccines to the masses at low cost.


to these people we are just subjects.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 18, 2011, 11:16:45 AM
The one question I would like someone to answer is, why is there anything at all?

When according to natural science energy/matter can not be destroyed, only transformed.

Therefore it was around before big bang. And energy in one form or another have always existed according to the physical laws in natural science.
 

So how can there be anything if it was never created?


natural science is limited


To add to this it would be a scientific contradiction to put a time line (13.7 billion) to matter when it cannot be created or destroyed.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 11:19:07 AM
God created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created Santa Claus who
created me who
created the universe.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 11:22:08 AM
^ There are no contradictions. All you need is the same leap of faith than with anything else.

The first god was there all along. Again, same leap of faith.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 11:23:20 AM
God created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created god who
created Santa Claus who
created me who
created the universe.


matter created matter ?

energy created matter?

matter created energy?

energy/matter created the big bang?

the big bang created energy/matter?


 ;D


your problem is that you cant accept God as he is. maybe you dont like the idea of always being inferior to someone else.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 18, 2011, 11:27:34 AM
^ There are no contradictions. All you need is the same leap of faith than with anything else.

The first god was there all along. Again, same leap of faith.
Lol keep laughing, but it seems you're the only one in the thread that doesn't understand my point.
I think you're confusing the Christian god/the bible vs a creator.

The fact is, you're just unwilling to accept ANY idea that makes you inferior to someone else, IMHO, since it's obvious from your posts you think yourself smarter than everyone else who doesn't share your opinion. Lol
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 11:27:53 AM
your problem is that you cant accept God as he is. maybe you dont like the idea of always being inferior to someone else.

God is everything right? So he would be my superior and inferior, he would be a Nazi and a pasifist, a cannibal and a vegetarian. God is such a terrible concept.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: che on May 18, 2011, 11:31:29 AM

matter created matter ?

energy created matter?

matter created energy?

energy/matter created the big bang?

the big bang created energy/matter?


 ;D


your problem is that you cant accept God as he is. maybe you dont like the idea of always being inferior to someone else.

You told us before that God was bored and created himself   ???
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 11:33:05 AM
Lol keep laughing, but it seems you're the only one in the thread that doesn't understand my point.
I think you're confusing the Christian god/the bible vs a creator.

The fact is, you're just unwilling to accept ANY idea that makes you inferior to someone else, IMHO, since it's obvious from your posts you think yourself smarter than everyone else who doesn't share your opinion. Lol

Have no proof? No worries, attack the person with different opinions!  :D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 18, 2011, 11:37:28 AM
God is everything right? So he would be my superior and inferior, he would be a Nazi and a pasifist, a cannibal and a vegetarian. God is such a terrible concept.

God is LOVE... (period)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 18, 2011, 11:38:59 AM
its "hip" these days to be an athiest. they think they sound intelligent.

It's always been hip to deny Christ, but I will say that many atheists are VERY intelligent people.  I hope someone like Christopher Hitchens miraculously comes to know Christ before cancer sends him into eternity.  I don't relish or enjoy the idea of a permanent separation from God for those that denied Christ while in this life.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 18, 2011, 11:39:42 AM
Have no proof? No worries, attack the person with different opinions!  :D

I have not attacked anyone.  I have asked you guys to do what you ask of us, prove your theories.  

I am a science/physics major and can not for the life of me understand how anyone could remotely think that energy converted to matter.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 11:39:45 AM
God is everything right? So he would be my superior and inferior, he would be a Nazi and a pasifist, a cannibal and a vegetarian. God is such a terrible concept.
god is not everything. who told you that? god is god.

he is your superior
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: YngiweRhoads on May 18, 2011, 11:40:03 AM
Lol keep laughing, but it seems you're the only one in the thread that doesn't understand my point.
I think you're confusing the Christian god/the bible vs a creator.

The fact is, you're just unwilling to accept ANY idea that makes you inferior to someone else, IMHO, since it's obvious from your posts you think yourself smarter than everyone else who doesn't share your opinion. Lol

Zero evidence for a creator. Period. There is absolutely no reason to assume there is one.

There is compelling evidence to support our current understanding of the universe. When new evidence is discovered we change our view of the universe to correspond with the new evidence. That is how science works.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 11:41:19 AM
god is not everything. who told you that? god is god.

he is your superior

So what else do you know about god.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 11:41:48 AM
It's always been hip to deny Christ, but I will say that many atheists are VERY intelligent people.  I hope someone like Christopher Hitchens miraculously comes to know Christ before cancer sends him into eternity.  I don't relish or enjoy the idea of a permanent separation from God for those that denied Christ while in this life.
dont worry mos, god is all powerful and he wants the same thing as you.  ;)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 18, 2011, 11:43:10 AM
Zero evidence for a creator. Period. There is absolutely no reason to assume there is one.

There is compelling evidence to support our current understanding of the universe. When new evidence is discovered we change our view of the universe to correspond with the new evidence. That is how science works.



Dude, there is NO compelling scientific evidence to support the creation of the universe....energy can NOT convert to matter!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 11:43:46 AM
Zero evidence for a creator. Period. There is absolutely no reason to assume there is one.

There is compelling evidence to support our current understanding of the universe. When new evidence is discovered we change our view of the universe to correspond with the new evidence. That is how science works.


you have already been owned in this thread. respond to that before moving on  ;)


(btw, is there any evidence that you exist? )


So what else do you know about god.
all good, all powerful
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 11:44:53 AM
all good, all powerful

And how do you know this.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 11:45:14 AM
Dude, there is NO compelling scientific evidence to support the creation of the universe....energy can NOT convert to matter!
well energy and matter are essentially the same thing.  


which is all the more reason to relaize what george berkeley was trying to tell everyone ages ago...   this world doesnt exist except for in being percieved
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 18, 2011, 11:48:54 AM
Zero evidence for a creator. Period. There is absolutely no reason to assume there is one.

There is compelling evidence to support our current understanding of the universe. When new evidence is discovered we change our view of the universe to correspond with the new evidence. That is how science works.


Also zero evidence for someone who created my car, surely its more complex then the universe is ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 11:49:28 AM
Also zero evidence for someone who created my car, surely its more complex then the universe is ::)
  ;D   ;D   ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 18, 2011, 11:49:43 AM
well energy and matter are essentially the same thing.  


which is all the more reason to realize what george berkeley was trying to tell everyone ages ago...   this world doesn't exist except for in being perceived

Actually, from a science stand point and the advantageous effort to make all the high powered accelerator nucletrons to separate the smallest atoms......no one actually can say what energy is....let me explain; radiation is when electrons are released into a cell and ejects an outer ring electron...when that binding energy is broken, radiation is realeased (this energy is what?) matter is made of of atoms but what is the energy that holds these atoms together? From a physics standpoint, energy can change matter but not become matter.  As the Big bang Theory would try and suggest.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 18, 2011, 11:52:51 AM

When the scientist and Roman Catholic priest Georges Lemaître first proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory, Einstein initially dismissed the theory without thought or consideration, in part because it came from a priest and because it implied "Creation" and a "Creator."  

Einstein was quick to endorse both Lemaître and his theory only after Hubble confirmed the theory.


Georges Lemaître

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=313560.0;attach=355011;image)



Quantum physics is weird, therefore Jesus is your Lord and Savior.

A religious person once had a valid scientific idea, therefore all his non-scientific ideas were also valid.


Einstein at one point believed Lemaître's Big Bang Theory was a non-scientific idea too.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 11:55:35 AM
Actually, from a science stand point and the advetageous effort to make all the nucletrons to seperate the smallest atoms......no one actually can say what energy is....let me explain;  radiation is when electrons are released into a cell and ejects an outer ring electron...when that binding energy is broken, radiation is realeased (this energy is what?)  matter is made of of atoms but what is the energy that holds these atoms together?  From a physics standpoint, energy can change matter but not become matter.  As the Big bang Theory would try and suggest.

yeah i know

i am with you 100%

what i was refering to is e=mc2


the only thing that exists is mind (a controller and producer of energy)

an all powerful mind can create energy and matter and these things can interact with mind-energy and influence/change it(the mind will react in some way). which is what this world is. a place where new minds are developed and then grown, with all the variables (hot and cold, pain and pleasure) to make us grow and appreciate the awesomeness that is god before we can come into his presence. its a way of making us realize our infinite inferiority. not out of pride but out of love for us, what is best for us.  

the fact that energy and matter are so intertwined is a testament to the fact that matter itself is nothing more than a tool to be used in the shaping of minds.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 18, 2011, 11:59:42 AM
yeah i know

i am with you 100%

what i was refering to is e=mc2


the only thing that exists is mind (a controller and producer of energy)

an all powerful mind can create energy and matter and these things can interact with mind-energy and influence/change it(the mind will react in some way). which is what this world is. a place where new minds are developed and then grown, with all the variables (hot and cold, pain and pleasure) to make us grow and appreciate the awesomeness that is god before we can come into his presence. its a way of making us realize our infinite inferiority. not out of pride but out of love for us, what is best for us.  

the fact that energy and matter are so intertwined is a testament to the fact that matter itself is nothing more than a tool to be used in the shaping of minds.


 ;D  Pretty awesome stuff right there!


I have been trolling these boards for a while, and this has been the most fun I have had on here!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 18, 2011, 12:13:50 PM

 ;D  Pretty awesome stuff right there!


I have been trolling these boards for a while, and this has been the most fun I have had on here!

yeah i know

i am with you 100%

what i was refering to is e=mc2


the only thing that exists is mind (a controller and producer of energy)

an all powerful mind can create energy and matter and these things can interact with mind-energy and influence/change it(the mind will react in some way). which is what this world is. a place where new minds are developed and then grown, with all the variables (hot and cold, pain and pleasure) to make us grow and appreciate the awesomeness that is god before we can come into his presence. its a way of making us realize our infinite inferiority. not out of pride but out of love for us, what is best for us.  

the fact that energy and matter are so intertwined is a testament to the fact that matter itself is nothing more than a tool to be used in the shaping of minds.

I think many folks do everything in their power to reason God away from their lives to avoid any form of accountability.  I don't think general "disbelief" extends much further than this simple idea.   Somehow reasoning God away removes any divine consequences for their actions and separates them from the realm of his control.  If they don't belief and reason away his existence then they're no longer subject to his control.....simple as that.    
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 18, 2011, 04:09:55 PM
I think many folks do everything in their power to reason God away from their lives to avoid any form of accountability.  I don't think general "disbelief" extends much further than this simple idea.   Somehow reasoning God away removes any divine consequences for their actions and separates them from the realm of his control.  If they don't belief and reason away his existence then they're no longer subject to his control.....simple as that.    

It always bugs me to hear a Christian infer that I lack belief in a god because I somehow want to get away with being a bad person. Problem is, I'm not a bad person and placed next to the average Christian would probably win in a morality test.

Have you considered Christians like the concept of a God that expects them to screw up and then forgives them for it?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 05:02:37 PM
I think many folks do everything in their power to reason God away from their lives to avoid any form of accountability.  I don't think general "disbelief" extends much further than this simple idea.   Somehow reasoning God away removes any divine consequences for their actions and separates them from the realm of his control.  If they don't belief and reason away his existence then they're no longer subject to his control.....simple as that.    
yes alot of people like that and alot of other people with different reasons too.


all people are good people. even murderers rapists and what have you. some people make bigger mistakes and become more misinformed  than others.  the only cause of evil is ignorance. the only cause of a lack of belief is ignorance. no one understands fully and remains atheist or a sinner. which is why were all here. to grow.


Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 18, 2011, 05:04:54 PM
It always bugs me to hear a Christian infer that I lack belief in a god because I somehow want to get away with being a bad person. Problem is, I'm not a bad person and placed next to the average Christian would probably win in a morality test.

Have you considered Christians like the concept of a God that expects them to screw up and then forgives them for it?

"Agnostic"...Fuck that noise.  You're just trying to hedge your bet.  You either believe or don't.  Show some testicular fortitude, kid. Oh and the "average" Christian is about the same as the "average" Agnostic or the "average" Athesit, but the "average" muslim is a piece of shit we can all consider beneath human standards.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 18, 2011, 05:09:54 PM
yes alot of people like that and alot of other people with different reasons too.


all people are good people. even murderers rapists and what have you. some people make bigger mistakes and become more misinformed  than others.  the only cause of evil is ignorance. the only cause of a lack of belief is ignorance. no one understands fully and remains atheist or a sinner. which is why were all here. to grow.




nonsense , the lack of belief is proof not ignorance , there is simply no reason what so ever to ' believe ' in any deity nevermind your version of it.

and according to your logic , God is the creator of everything so God created evil so God is evil .
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 18, 2011, 05:10:37 PM
yes alot of people like that and alot of other people with different reasons too.


all people are good people. even murderers rapists and what have you. some people make bigger mistakes and become more misinformed  than others.  the only cause of evil is ignorance. the only cause of a lack of belief is ignorance. no one understands fully and remains atheist or a sinner. which is why were all here. to grow.




Fuck that noise.  Don't you have dick waiting somewhere for you to shit on? Oh...Wait!  You and Boo Boo, aka BayGBM have a date to sit on a picket fence to massage your manholes.  You simpleton.  

Apparently the real reason you are here is to take it up the ass, or so you say.  I think you're here to make even the most intellectually stunted among us (i.e., mongoloids) feel as though they are smarter than someone.  You.

FTN.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 18, 2011, 05:11:27 PM

 ;D  Pretty awesome stuff right there!


I have been trolling these boards for a while, and this has been the most fun I have had on here!

You still have not answered my question.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 18, 2011, 05:13:33 PM
It always bugs me to hear a Christian infer that I lack belief in a god because I somehow want to get away with being a bad person. Problem is, I'm not a bad person and placed next to the average Christian would probably win in a morality test.

Have you considered Christians like the concept of a God that expects them to screw up and then forgives them for it?

That's because morality predates their silly religion and it was necessary for the species to propagate hence it's innate.   
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: cephissus on May 18, 2011, 05:14:59 PM
"Agnostic"...Fuck that noise.  You're just trying to hedge your bet.  You either believe or don't.  Show some testicular fortitude, kid. Oh and the "average" Christian is about the same as the "average" Agnostic or the "average" Athesit, but the "average" muslim is a piece of shit we can all consider beneath human standards.



lol
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 18, 2011, 05:16:00 PM
God is LOVE... (period)

God is a story in a book ( period. )
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 05:20:58 PM
God is a story in a book ( period. )

You should be more open minded. Guys who study sub atomic particles vs dirty priests on the beginnings of the universe, both require the same exact leap of faith.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 05:38:21 PM
nonsense , the lack of belief is proof not ignorance , there is simply no reason what so ever to ' believe ' in any deity nevermind your version of it.

and according to your logic , God is the creator of everything so God created evil so God is evil .

hm...   a 'reason' to believe? no i guess there isnt any reason to believe to the non believer. but the believer who actively engages with god knows the value of belief.

evil is a concept, nobody creates concepts, god created people and people do evil things, god allows people to do evil for 2 reasons= 1. your not an individual and you dont have free will if god limits you actions.  2. pain and suffering are necessary for an appreciation of pleasure and joy.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 18, 2011, 05:40:38 PM
You should be more open minded. Guys who study sub atomic particles vs dirty priests on the beginnings of the universe, both require the same exact leap of faith.
Glad you finally see that a theory where a dot inflated into the known universe requires the same faith that believing that there was some being that designed or created the dot that inflated into the known universe does.  ;D Especially since both currently have no evidence proving they dont exist or didnt happen.
Glad I could open your mind a little bit. Extreme atheists and extreme christians, both the same close minded douche, just standing across the fence from each other pointing and calling the other idiots. Both claim to absolutley know beyond a shadow of a doubt how the universe WASNT created, when in reality neither has any proof or evidence, just and extremely arrogant presumption.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 18, 2011, 05:42:26 PM
hm...   a 'reason' to believe? no i guess there isnt any reason to believe to the non believer. but the believer who actively engages with god knows the value of belief.

evil is a concept, nobody creates concepts, god created people and people do evil things, god allows people to do evil for 2 reasons= 1. your not an individual and you dont have free will if god limits you actions.  2. pain and suffering are necessary for an appreciation of pleasure and joy.

WTF are you on about for real?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 05:55:18 PM
Glad you finally see that a theory where a dot inflated into the known universe requires the same faith that believing that there was some being that designed or created the dot that inflated into the known universe does.  ;D Especially since both currently have no evidence proving they dont exist or didnt happen.
Glad I could open your mind a little bit. Extreme atheists and extreme christians, both the same close minded douche, just standing across the fence from each other pointing and calling the other idiots. Both claim to absolutley know beyond a shadow of a doubt how the universe WASNT created, when in reality neither has any proof or evidence, just and extremely arrogant presumption.

Why do you deny the possibility that the universe was born from a giant egg? Same leap of faith.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 06:32:56 PM
Why do you deny the possibility that the universe was born from a giant egg? Same leap of faith.
lol


the only place the buck can stop is at god

by definition
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 18, 2011, 06:35:10 PM
lol


the only place the buck can stop is at god

by definition

Oooooh but you underestimate this egg...because I can choose it's powers.  8)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 18, 2011, 06:35:51 PM
Oooooh but you underestimate this egg...because I can choose it's powers.  8)
only if its god. and then its god, not an egg
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Parker on May 18, 2011, 07:08:48 PM
Oooooh but you underestimate this egg...because I can choose it's powers.  8)
Then there must be a bird that laid said egg, remember God man man in his own image---not that of the Aflak duck...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Captain Equipoise on May 18, 2011, 07:35:40 PM


:)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: dogbowl on May 18, 2011, 08:32:12 PM
::)
My point is that even though the Big Bang theory requires the same leap of faith that believing in a creator does

It's "leap of faith" (ie, believe it, just because!) versus "Evidence and observation" (believe it because there is evidence to support it, and observations are consistent with predictions)

The thing that separate science from religion is that science will throw out a bad idea
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: dogbowl on May 18, 2011, 08:46:04 PM
yeah i know

i am with you 100%

You're with him 100% on that crap that he just made up?

Quote
Actually, from a science stand point and the advetageous effort to make all the nucletrons to seperate the smallest atoms

What is a nucletron? 

Quote
radiation is when electrons are released into a cell and ejects an outer ring electron

are you talking about the excited state and the ground state?  by cell did you mean "(electron) shell"?  (a cell is absolutely enormous compared with a single atom)




Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: YngiweRhoads on May 18, 2011, 08:49:12 PM
You're with him 100% on that crap that he just made up?

What is a nucletron? 

are you talking about the excited state and the ground state?  by cell did you mean "(electron) shell"?  (a cell is absolutely enormous compared with a single atom)






Yeah, I haven't had time to respond to this drivel, and still don't, but what a load of crap.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 18, 2011, 09:57:12 PM
Yeah, I haven't had time to respond to this drivel, and still don't, but what a load of crap.


Glad somebody else has noticed that we've got a bunch of retards people who are trying really hard to sound like nobel prize winning physicists.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: wavelength on May 18, 2011, 11:24:12 PM
Stephan Hawking is a great scientist but an awful philosopher.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Parker on May 18, 2011, 11:35:54 PM
Glad somebody else has noticed that we've got a bunch of retards people who are trying really hard to sound like nobel prize winning physicists.
I wouldn't be so hard...think about it, a group of bbing enthusiasts have other interests other than weights and talking about what cycles the pros are running. You actually have some people here that can carry on a interesting convo---and if they have the incorrect info, correct them
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 05:27:08 AM
You still have not answered my question.

I must have missed your question, please ask again, and I will do my best to answer it.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Firemuscle on May 19, 2011, 05:31:24 AM
 I can't believe so many people actually think there is a heaven.

 There's absolutely no logic behind it. Besides the fairy tales written in the "holy books".

 The idea that we are judged by God in the afterlife is absolutely ridiculous. It belongs in the dark ages.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: DK II on May 19, 2011, 05:33:45 AM
I can't believe so many people actually think there is a heaven.

 There's absolutely no logic behind it. Besides the fairy tales written in the "holy books".

 The idea that we are judged by God in the afterlife is absolutely ridiculous. It belongs in the dark ages.

There's also no logic behind when YOU look in the mirror and think you work out, yet still you believe that.  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 19, 2011, 05:43:23 AM
I can't believe so many people actually think there is a heaven.

 There's absolutely no logic behind it. Besides the fairy tales written in the "holy books".

 The idea that we are judged by God in the afterlife is absolutely ridiculous. It belongs in the dark ages.
Funny how I can't believe there is so many people that think there is no heaven.

I think there is no logic behind it. The idea that we wouldn't face judgement is outrages. At first glance my posts seems like I'm mocking you but really all kidding aside this is how I feel.

Serious question...do you think you are smarter then me because of this?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 05:45:38 AM
I must have missed your question, please ask again, and I will do my best to answer it.

My question was simple: since you are a believing Christian, you must, by default, believe that your Hindu friend harbours incorrect beliefs and that Hinduism is untrue.

Is this true or not?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Firemuscle on May 19, 2011, 05:47:13 AM
Funny how I can't believe there is so many people that think there is no heaven.

I think there is no logic behind it. The idea that we wouldn't face judgement is outrages. At first glance my posts seems like I'm mocking you but really all kidding aside this is how I feel.

Serious question...do you think you are smarter then me because of this?

 Yes I do.

 Anyone who believes in the concept of heaven is either stupid or deluded by religion.

 No offense, that's just what I think. I've studied every religion around the world and I think the concept of heaven and hell and judgement in the afterlife is total bullshit.

 Why do you believe in it? What leads you to think it's true exactly?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 05:48:50 AM
Funny how I can't believe there is so many people that think there is no heaven.

I think there is no logic behind it. The idea that we wouldn't face judgement is outrages. At first glance my posts seems like I'm mocking you but really all kidding aside this is how I feel.

Serious question...do you think you are smarter then me because of this?

Does your god approve of syringes and steroids? ???
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: YngiweRhoads on May 19, 2011, 05:51:49 AM
"Agnostic"...Fuck that noise.  You're just trying to hedge your bet.  You either believe or don't.  Show some testicular fortitude, kid.


Bullshit, what a ridiculous statement.  

Anyone who isn't agnostic is a fool as there is no conclusive evidence either for, or against, a creator. Though, the evidence against the need for a creator is constantly mounting. Agnostism is the only logical choice, for now.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Tito24 on May 19, 2011, 05:55:33 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_aFxM4BmmZ28/SUs8-NlvYZI/AAAAAAAAAhY/BvTom05kNFs/s400/best_guy_ever.jpg)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 05:58:06 AM
Bullshit, what a ridiculous statement.  

Anyone who isn't agnostic is a fool as there is no conclusive evidence either for, or against, a creator. Though, the evidence against the need for a creator is constantly mounting. Agnostism is the only logical choice, for now.

Agnostics are usually just functional atheists; they go through their lives never really thinking much about divinity, worrying about the possible existence or nonexistence of god rarely plays into any important decision they make. They certainly are atheistic about Zeus and Thor.

Agnostics=Just Functional Atheists
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 19, 2011, 05:59:51 AM


"Agnostic"...Fuck that noise.  You're just trying to hedge your bet.  You either believe or don't.  Show some testicular fortitude, kid. Oh and the "average" Christian is about the same as the "average" Agnostic or the "average" Athesit, but the "average" muslim is a piece of shit we can all consider beneath human standards.



Bullshit, what a ridiculous statement.  

Anyone who isn't agnostic is a fool as there is no conclusive evidence either for, or against, a creator. Though, the evidence against the need for a creator is constantly mounting. Agnostism is the only logical choice, for now.


LOL

Theist: Agnostics and atheists are fools!

Atheist:  Theists and agnostics are fools!

Agnostic:  Atheists and theists are fools!

 

;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: DK II on May 19, 2011, 06:04:08 AM
Does your god approve of syringes and steroids? ???

In the bible it says you should not lie, but not you should not use steroids to improve your physique.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Kim Jong Bob on May 19, 2011, 06:04:30 AM
I think many folks do everything in their power to reason God away from their lives to avoid any form of accountability.  I don't think general "disbelief" extends much further than this simple idea.   Somehow reasoning God away removes any divine consequences for their actions and separates them from the realm of his control.  If they don't belief and reason away his existence then they're no longer subject to his control.....simple as that.    
personal question if you would mind answer, is your wife as devoted to god as you are, was she that before you found god? if not what does she think of the new man of steel?`


all your post about god sounds nuts to me but you seem to be a really happy person
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 19, 2011, 06:06:10 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_aFxM4BmmZ28/SUs8-NlvYZI/AAAAAAAAAhY/BvTom05kNFs/s400/best_guy_ever.jpg)


 ???


(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=193222.0;attach=344316;image)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 19, 2011, 06:07:15 AM
Yes I do.

 Anyone who believes in the concept of heaven is either stupid or deluded by religion.

 No offense, that's just what I think. I've studied every religion around the world and I think the concept of heaven and hell and judgement in the afterlife is total bullshit.

 Why do you believe in it? What leads you to think it's true exactly?
I once too thought people like you were dumb but I don't anymore. How can you be dumb for something you haven't discovered yet. To answere your question is not something that's possible to answere. It's like saying why do you believe you love your daughter. As certain as I know I love my daughter is as certain as I know there is a heaven but I can't prove either.

Does your god approve of syringes and steroids? ???
Probably not...Are we discussing my beliefs or are we discussing my level of obedience...if so I fail miserably.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: YngiweRhoads on May 19, 2011, 06:07:24 AM
Agnostics are usually just functional atheists; they go through their lives never really thinking much about divinity, worrying about the possible existence or nonexistence of god rarely plays into any important decision they make. They certainly are atheistic about Zeus and Thor.

Agnostics=Just Functional Atheists

They could also be termed realists or rationalists.

Supporting either theism or atheism at this point in time is irrational.

*edit*

When I use the term theism, I am not referring to the creator written of in the man made myths, which is almost assuredly false, but merely addressing the notion that there was possibly a creator of the Universe. I suppose I should use the term creationism instead. Oh well, back to work.






Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 06:10:01 AM
They could also be termed realists or rationalists.

Supporting either theism or atheism at this point in time is irrational.




Semantics.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Firemuscle on May 19, 2011, 06:18:12 AM
I once too thought people like you were dumb but I don't anymore. How can you be dumb for something you haven't discovered yet. To answere your question is not something that's possible to answere. It's like saying why do you believe you love your daughter. As certain as I know I love my daughter is as certain as I know there is a heaven but I can't prove either.

 You are misguided and delusional.

 You are not stupid. You are just plain delusional.

 Reducing infinitely complex and profound things to munadane simplicities and worldly drivel. Believing you know the answers to totally unknowable things.

 I think most people just do it to make themselves feel comfortable. Some people can't handle the cold and impersonal unknown. So they lie to themselves to avoid facing these realities.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: YngiweRhoads on May 19, 2011, 06:21:51 AM
Semantics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Should point out that I do agree with your earlier statement.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 06:36:36 AM
I can't believe so many people actually think there is a heaven.

 There's absolutely no logic behind it. Besides the fairy tales written in the "holy books".

 The idea that we are judged by God in the afterlife is absolutely ridiculous. It belongs in the dark ages.

LOL...by this one thread I finally understand why you are so lost!  I will pray for you!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Firemuscle on May 19, 2011, 06:39:25 AM
LOL...by this one thread I finally understand why you are so lost!  I will pray for you!

 Christianity is a shit religion. It and Islam are by far the two worst religions on this Earth. The self-righteousness, bullshit fairytales, and closed-mindedness of them is disgusting.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 06:39:42 AM
My question was simple: since you are a believing Christian, you must, by default, believe that your Hindu friend harbours incorrect beliefs and that Hinduism is untrue.

Is this true or not?

AH yes, I thought I did answer this.

But, I will again, yes of course.  I believe that my route to heaven is through my Lord and Savior, Jesus....my friend's religion does not believe that way.  So, to answer your question point blank, yes I believe there is incorrect beliefs in his religion.   Now, might I add, I have listened to different preachers of my same faith, that seem to interpret verses different, I also feel some of these folks are incorrect in their religion as well.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: dogbowl on May 19, 2011, 06:42:59 AM
Quote
Somehow reasoning God away removes any divine consequences for their actions and separates them from the realm of his control.

This sort of talk makes god sound a lot like Freddie Krueger.  But instead of him getting you in your sleep, he gets you when you're dead, and he's powerless as long as you are awake/alive.

I'm about as scared of divine consequences as I am of Armageddon occuring on the 21st of May.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 06:47:24 AM
Christianity is a shit religion. It and Islam are by far the two worst religions on this Earth. The self-righteousness, bullshit fairytales, and closed-mindedness of them is disgusting.



I must admit, your uneducated answers remind me of a small child lashing out for attention.  Maybe if you actually had God in your heart you wouldn't need to post such nonsense for attention and you would be satisfied to be who you are and not pretent to be all these other things.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Firemuscle on May 19, 2011, 06:52:47 AM

I must admit, your uneducated answers remind me of a small child lashing out for attention.  Maybe if you actually had God in your heart you wouldn't need to post such nonsense for attention and you would be satisfied to be who you are and not pretent to be all these other things.

 "Having God in your heart", in the Christian sense. Just means you are deluded into believing in an imaginary sky daddy.

 Most people like you are nice and friendly. But the delusion is very hard to comprehend.

 Take a couple hits of good acid and find out about real religion.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Super Natural on May 19, 2011, 06:59:39 AM
What if Steven Hawkings & Jennifer Hawkings found each other sexually attractive?...

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 07:00:27 AM
"Having God in your hear", in the Christian sense. Just means you are deluded into believing in an imaginary sky daddy.

 Most people like you are nice and friendly. But the delusion is very hard to comprehend.

 Take a couple hits of good acid and find out about real religion.

Unlike you, I don't need extra attention to seek out approval from anyone, let alone people I do not know, to enjoy myself.    
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Firemuscle on May 19, 2011, 07:04:17 AM
Unlike you, I don't need extra attention to seek out approval from anyone, let alone people I do not know, to enjoy myself.    

 You just enjoy yourself by delusionally believing in phony Gods to get a false feeling of warmth and security.

 That's much better huh?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: JasonH on May 19, 2011, 07:07:38 AM
Stephan Hawking is a great scientist but an awful philosopher.

I don't much rate his front double biceps either.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 07:08:41 AM
You just enjoy yourself by delusionally believing in phony Gods to get a false feeling of warmth and security.

 That's much better huh?


Evidently, you don't see me on here bragging about how I look or acting like I am some sex God, or know something about everything like you.  As far as delusional, I may very well be, but I am happy in this delusional world and can you make that same claim?  ::)

And what happened to to the guy that started this thread that acted like he knew so much about physics?  Why has he not showed us all proof of Hawkin's theories?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Firemuscle on May 19, 2011, 07:13:31 AM

Evidently, you don't see me on here bragging about how I look or acting like I am some sex God, or know something about everything like you.  As far as delusional, I may very well be, but I am happy in this delusional world and can you make that same claim?  ::)

 You are happy because you lie yourself into happiness.

 You get happiness, but sacrifice truth.

 And in case you havnt noticed. I'm usually just joking around and having fun in here. Lots of things I say are sarcastic or meant as a joke. Apparently you can't tell though.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 07:51:59 AM
You are happy because you lie yourself into happiness.

 You get happiness, but sacrifice truth.

 And in case you havnt noticed. I'm usually just joking around and having fun in here. Lots of things I say are sarcastic or meant as a joke. Apparently you can't tell though.


LOL....yea, you know me enough to know if I am happy or not. 

Hey bro, you got the answers, lets hear the truth, please enlighten me on your physics knowledge how we were all created.  And don't stammer along with your dribble about this is stupid or and illusion, lets here your scientific facts to back up your claims of "NO" God....you now have the floor little man:
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 19, 2011, 08:21:26 AM
"Agnostic"...Fuck that noise.  You're just trying to hedge your bet.  You either believe or don't.  Show some testicular fortitude, kid. Oh and the "average" Christian is about the same as the "average" Agnostic or the "average" Athesit, but the "average" muslim is a piece of shit we can all consider beneath human standards.



What bet am I trying to hedge?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 08:28:28 AM
AH yes, I thought I did answer this.

But, I will again, yes of course.  I believe that my route to heaven is through my Lord and Savior, Jesus....my friend's religion does not believe that way.  So, to answer your question point blank, yes I believe there is incorrect beliefs in his religion.   Now, might I add, I have listened to different preachers of my same faith, that seem to interpret verses different, I also feel some of these folks are incorrect in their religion as well.

Aren't you obligated to tell him that?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 19, 2011, 08:32:30 AM
AH yes, I thought I did answer this.

But, I will again, yes of course.  I believe that my route to heaven is through my Lord and Savior, Jesus....my friend's religion does not believe that way.  So, to answer your question point blank, yes I believe there is incorrect beliefs in his religion.   Now, might I add, I have listened to different preachers of my same faith, that seem to interpret verses different, I also feel some of these folks are incorrect in their religion as well.

What to do... what to do..

Christianity is divided amongst itself into hundreds of sects. Each person from each sect, be it Southern Baptist, or Church of Christ, believe 100% that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Muslims believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. Even among Muslims, there are varying beliefs.

So many widely varying beliefs about God, so many people claiming THEY know the truth and everyone else is wrong, it makes an outside observer such as myself shake his head and wonder why they can't see the silliness of it all.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: wes on May 19, 2011, 08:50:20 AM
"Just walk a righteous path, and do your own thing in your own time man".   8)

Tim Wescott-circa-1969
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 08:53:06 AM
Aren't you obligated to tell him that?

We have discussed many times actually, like adults though...no pretentious attitudes like it is a murder trial or something.  And as adults we have agreed to disagree, as often in life we have to do.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 08:55:04 AM
We have discussed many times actually, like adults though...no pretentious attitudes like it is a murder trial or something.  And as adults we have agreed to disagree, as often in life we have to do.

Weird.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 08:55:59 AM
What to do... what to do..

Christianity is divided amongst itself into hundreds of sects. Each person from each sect, be it Southern Baptist, or Church of Christ, believe 100% that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Muslims believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. Even among Muslims, there are varying beliefs.

So many widely varying beliefs about God, so many people claiming THEY know the truth and everyone else is wrong, it makes an outside observer such as myself shake his head and wonder why they can't see the silliness of it all.

So, true, but I have found that even if you have varying religious beliefs and you can communicate effectively, it leaves each person understanding of the others beliefs without it being awkward...it seems that I find, people that have trouble communicating their thoughts get frustrated and get defensive or the second most common, is people that just want to give their "opinion" with little facts or education get extremely defensive.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 08:56:44 AM
Weird.

Why?  Because two people can actually believe two different things and still get along?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 19, 2011, 10:13:00 AM
You are happy because you lie yourself into happiness.

 You get happiness, but sacrifice truth.

 And in case you havnt noticed. I'm usually just joking around and having fun in here. Lots of things I say are sarcastic or meant as a joke. Apparently you can't tell though.
lol, that's why you're melting down all over the place, frustrated. BTW you haven't said anything valid.... only insults and name calling 8)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 10:14:03 AM
Why?  Because two people can actually believe two different things and still get along?

Well, my understanding of Christianity is that you are duty bound to tell him the 'truth' and if he does not accept that truth, you must shun him.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 19, 2011, 10:16:06 AM
Well, my understanding of Christianity is that you are duty bound to tell him the 'truth' and if he does not accept that truth, you must shun him.

Uh?  I'm curious.  Where did you get this from?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 10:16:43 AM
Uh?  I'm curious.  Where did you get this from?

Why would you want to spend time and be friends with someone who has heretical beliefs? ???
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 10:17:35 AM
Well, my understanding of Christianity is that you are duty bound to tell him the 'truth' and if he does not accept that truth, you must shun him.

Where the heck did you get that from?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The Wizard on May 19, 2011, 10:17:56 AM
Hawking is a genious but it doesn't take one to figure this out - Every religion has a different god and believes in different shit, so why should westerners be more right than those of Islam who murder westerners in the name of their god!
Gods were invented when humans didn't understand what caused shit - Now we know about the sun, we don't have a sun god, we don't have a moon god, rain god, etc etc etc ..... We just cling on to this final god because we don't believe that when we are dead THATS IT FOR ETERNITY.
Believers carry on if it makes you happy. I wish I could believe but my feet are firmly on the ground and I believe science and common sense.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 10:20:09 AM
Where the heck did you get that from?

See above post.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 10:24:06 AM
Well, my understanding of Christianity is that you are duty bound to tell him the 'truth' and if he does not accept that truth, you must shun him.

I am sorry, but I have read NO scripture to back this up?  For that matter, Jesus was being crucified on the cross and still ask forgiveness for those punishing him and non believers?  He by no means shunned anyone?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 10:25:02 AM
Hawking is a genious but it doesn't take one to figure this out - Every religion has a different god and believes in different shit, so why should westerners be more right than those of Islam who murder westerners in the name of their god!
Gods were invented when humans didn't understand what caused shit - Now we know about the sun, we don't have a sun god, we don't have a moon god, rain god, etc etc etc ..... We just cling on to this final god because we don't believe that when we are dead THATS IT FOR ETERNITY.
Believers carry on if it makes you happy. I wish I could believe but my feet are firmly on the ground and I believe science and common sense.



You can believe in science and believe in God as well. Just remember, God did it. Whatever you think about- take the creation of the universe- you can delve into the quantum mechanics of it all, just remember GOD DID IT.

If you physics type folks want an interesting point to consider, let's look at gravity shall we? Take a large physical body, a planet for example. Spin the thing and it attracts other bodies toward it. Increase the density or rate of spin and this force-called gravity- becomes stronger.

So, this concept of gravity- where the heck does it come from? A large body could just as easily spin and have no effect on anything else around it.

Think for a second- every principal you see in physics had to come from somewhere. Things do not just create themselves...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 10:25:42 AM
Hawking is a genious but it doesn't take one to figure this out - Every religion has a different god and believes in different shit, so why should westerners be more right than those of Islam who murder westerners in the name of their god!
Gods were invented when humans didn't understand what caused shit - Now we know about the sun, we don't have a sun god, we don't have a moon god, rain god, etc etc etc ..... We just cling on to this final god because we don't believe that when we are dead THATS IT FOR ETERNITY.
Believers carry on if it makes you happy. I wish I could believe but my feet are firmly on the ground and I believe science and common sense.


You believe in science, please show me proof in science, that there is No God?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 10:26:32 AM
I am sorry, but I have read NO scripture to back this up?  For that matter, Jesus was being crucified on the cross and still ask forgiveness for those punishing him and non believers?

I wasn't referencing the Bible, merely my experiences with Christians. Your friend holds heretical beliefs; at the very least you should be telling him the truth of Christ every day until he realises it himself.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 19, 2011, 10:27:30 AM
Why would you want to spend time and be friends with someone who has heretical beliefs? ???
I would rather be friends with someone who has heretical beliefs, one more person you could lead to salvation ;)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 19, 2011, 10:27:51 AM
Why would you want to spend time and be friends with someone who has heretical beliefs? ???

That's your opinion.  Christianity teaches no such thing.  On the contrary, Jesus taught by word and by example to do the opposite.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Butterbean on May 19, 2011, 10:28:09 AM
Not sure if Deicide is thinking of Matthew 10:14 or not but if so, it is different than what you are thinking:

Jesus talking to His disciples:
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet"

Nothing about shunning if they don't accept the truth.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 19, 2011, 10:30:01 AM
Not sure if Deicide is thinking of Matthew 10:14 or not but if so, it is different than what you are thinking:

Jesus talking to His disciples:
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet"

Nothing about shunning if they don't accept the truth.

I don't think so:

I wasn't referencing the Bible, merely my experiences with Christians. Your friend holds heretical beliefs; at the very least you should be telling him the truth of Christ every day until he realises it himself.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Butterbean on May 19, 2011, 10:30:49 AM
I wasn't referencing the Bible, merely my experiences with Christians. Your friend holds heretical beliefs; at the very least you should be telling him the truth of Christ every day until he realises it himself.

My mistake in thinking you were referring to a scripture.

I used to work in the same building as an Asian guy that believed in reincarnation etc.  We had discussions all the time about our faiths...no one got angry or lambasted the other, we had very interesting and pretty enjoyable conversations. 

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 10:32:29 AM
I wasn't referencing the Bible, merely my experiences with Christians. Your friend holds heretical beliefs; at the very least you should be telling him the truth of Christ every day until he realises it himself.

There was a fellow named Thomas that was a doubter of God, scripture John 20:24-29.

As a Christian, when the doubters come, they have questions and it is our job, to help answer those questions and hopefully help those choose God.  My friend has his beliefs and that is fine, but I will continue to show and teach scripture as it fits in our daily life, not be that pushy Christian that often pushes people away from God.  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Cliff Clavin on May 19, 2011, 10:32:36 AM

Things do not just create themselves...

and yet the most complex/powerful being of all (your god)needs no creator?interesting

I also like how people say prove there is no god...thats the same of saying prove there are no pink unicorns...the burden of proof is with the ones that make the claim....
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 10:35:27 AM
My mistake in thinking you were referring to a scripture.

I used to work in the same building as an Asian guy that believed in reincarnation etc.  We had discussions all the time about our faiths...no one got angry or lambasted the other, we had very interesting and pretty enjoyable conversations. 



Well, I don't have any religious friends but certainly those with oppositional political beliefs. I have a friend here for example, who is a world governmetn statist, the complete opposite of me and it puts strain on the friendship sometimes. I would figure religious beliefs are even more tension provoking. I need to get to the gym but will take this up later.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 10:36:07 AM
and yet the most complex/powerful being of all (your god)needs no creator?interesting

I also like how people say prove there is no god...thats the same of saying prove there are no pink unicorns...the burden of proof is with the ones that make the claim....

Then where did things start if not with a God?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The Wizard on May 19, 2011, 10:36:51 AM

You can believe in science and believe in God as well. Just remember, God did it. Whatever you think about- take the creation of the universe- you can delve into the quantum mechanics of it all, just remember GOD DID IT.

If you physics type folks want an interesting point to consider, let's look at gravity shall we? Take a large physical body, a planet for example. Spin the thing and it attracts other bodies toward it. Increase the density or rate of spin and this force-called gravity- becomes stronger.

So, this concept of gravity- where the heck does it come from? A large body could just as easily spin and have no effect on anything else around it.

Think for a second- every principal you see in physics had to come from somewhere. Things do not just create themselves...
Delusion. We know what causes gravity and why it varies from planet to planet due to size and speed of spin etc. Its the 21st century now people, time to wake up and live in the real world.,
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Butterbean on May 19, 2011, 10:37:28 AM
Why would you want to spend time and be friends with someone who has heretical beliefs? ???

I would rather be friends with someone who has heretical beliefs, one more person you could lead to salvation ;)

Luke 5:30-32

But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: The Wizard on May 19, 2011, 10:38:52 AM
You believe in science, please show me proof in science, that there is No God?
The proof is there - Physics is the proof and we can prove all the facts (there are many documentaries and books with all the facts in AND they explain why we know thye are FACTS). If you believe though, keep believing. There won't be anything when you die though but then you won't care - You'll be dead.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 10:40:11 AM
and yet the most complex/powerful being of all (your god)needs no creator?interesting

I also like how people say prove there is no god...thats the same of saying prove there are no pink unicorns...the burden of proof is with the ones that make the claim....

I prefer to think of things like the alien throwing the marbles at the end of Men in Black.

We only know what we can see- what we have a reference point for. But who's to say how big all of reality really is? I see reality as being bigger than the universe- our universe might be infinitesimally small to some larger creatures. Take bacteria for example, to a lone bacteria the human body would be about the size of the universe to us.

Point is, we do not have any real way of understanding where everything comes from, because we are not supposed to. Saying God has not creator why do you think that strange? We only know what is put before us in the first place-we can only try to fathom the reality given to us.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 10:40:40 AM
The proof is there - Physics is the proof and we can prove all the facts (there are many documentaries and books with all the facts in AND they explain why we know thye are FACTS). If you believe though, keep believing. There won't be anything when you die though but then you won't care - You'll be dead.

I am a physics major...there is NO proof or facts, only theories.  There is not one theorem that has ever said, energy can be coverted to matter.  Lets discuss this quantum burst theory...if this theory was accurate then why in the last 10 decades have we not seen this type of quantum burst?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 10:42:49 AM
Delusion. We know what causes gravity and why it varies from planet to planet due to size and speed of spin etc. Its the 21st century now people, time to wake up and live in the real world.,

You completely missed the point of what I said...I agree, we do understand gravity- but WHY does it exist in the first place? Some higher intelligence designed everything, that's why. Otherwise large bodies would spin and nothing would happen, and then the universe would not be perfect.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Butterbean on May 19, 2011, 10:43:02 AM
Well, I don't have any religious friends

 >:(

 ;D


Well, I don't have any religious friends but certainly those with oppositional political beliefs. I have a friend here for example, who is a world governmetn statist, the complete opposite of me and it puts strain on the friendship sometimes. I would figure religious beliefs are even more tension provoking. I need to get to the gym but will take this up later.

I have many friends that are unbelievers....and our relationships have relatively no tension because of their unbelief (other than I long for them to believe).

But I agree that relationships w/people w/completely opposite political beliefs def. can be tension provoking. 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 10:44:51 AM

But I agree that relationships w/people w/completely opposite political beliefs def. can be tension provoking. 

X2   ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 19, 2011, 11:50:57 AM
You completely missed the point of what I said...I agree, we do understand gravity- but WHY does it exist in the first place? Some higher intelligence designed everything, that's why. Otherwise large bodies would spin and nothing would happen, and then the universe would not be perfect.

Flash back 200 yrs.... Volcanos are angry gods, Thunder is an angry god, hurricanes and tornados are the wrath of an angry god, flies grew out of soup....


Fortunately we have progressed beyond the "it's a god" answer to everything we don't understand at the moment..or have we?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 11:58:21 AM
hm...   a 'reason' to believe? no i guess there isnt any reason to believe to the non believer. but the believer who actively engages with god knows the value of belief.

evil is a concept, nobody creates concepts, god created people and people do evil things, god allows people to do evil for 2 reasons= 1. your not an individual and you dont have free will if god limits you actions.  2. pain and suffering are necessary for an appreciation of pleasure and joy.

If there were a God there would be absolutely NO reason to ' believe ' in him , he would be a fact but believers are forced be believe in him because there is no alternative . And how does one ' engage ' with God? by talking to themselves?

I see the creator is responsible for all the things you like and none of the things you don't , God created evil you can't escape than if you buy into the story

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 12:02:51 PM
Unlike you, I don't need extra attention to seek out approval from anyone, let alone people I do not know, to enjoy myself.    

You need attention and approval from the imaginary deity
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 19, 2011, 12:04:00 PM
Luke 5:30-32

But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”


Great post Butterbean!    ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 12:06:18 PM
You believe in science, please show me proof in science, that there is No God?

You believe in God , please show me proof that there is one.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 19, 2011, 12:08:21 PM
Flash back 200 yrs.... Volcanos are angry gods, Thunder is an angry god, hurricanes and tornados are the wrath of an angry god, flies grew out of soup....


Fortunately we have progressed beyond the "it's a god" answer to everything we don't understand at the moment..or have we?

Gods used be on the mountains. When man conquered the mountains they moved to the skies. When man conquered the skies they moved to heavens. When man achieved outer space the gods quickly retreated to another dimensions.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 12:09:34 PM
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is God able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is God both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is God neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 12:15:18 PM
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is God able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is God both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is God neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?



They haven't been able to counter that one since 33 A.D.  ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 19, 2011, 12:16:38 PM
Flash back 200 yrs.... Volcanos are angry gods, Thunder is an angry god, hurricanes and tornados are the wrath of an angry god, flies grew out of soup....


Fortunately we have progressed beyond the "it's a god" answer to everything we don't understand at the moment..or have we?

Flash back 3,000 or so years ago and the Jews already knew better:

Jeremiah 10:1-2,13

1 Hear what the LORD says to you, people of Israel. 2  This is what the LORD says:

   “Do not learn the ways of the nations
   or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
   though the nations are terrified by them.

13 When He thunders, the waters in the heavens roar;
   He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth.
He sends lightning with the rain
   and brings out the wind from his storehouses.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 12:33:42 PM
You believe in God , please show me proof that there is one.

Yours and mine existence....
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 12:36:11 PM
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? ((able but can not intervene in free will)) Job 2:3-6
Then he is not omnipotent God.

Is God able, but not willing?  ((it is his child's choice, he hopes they make the right choice))
Then he is malevolent God.

Is God both able and willing?  ((answered asbove))
Then whence cometh evil?

Is God neither able nor willing?  (( answered above))
Then why call him God.



Fixed
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 12:39:22 PM
Flash back 200 yrs.... Volcanos are angry gods, Thunder is an angry god, hurricanes and tornados are the wrath of an angry god, flies grew out of soup....


Fortunately we have progressed beyond the "it's a god" answer to everything we don't understand at the moment..or have we?

I would love to hear a valid reason-other than Intelligent Design- that explains why forces like gravity exist in the first place.

You can go into how gravity works and what have you, but you still cannot explain WHY it happens in the first place.

Maybe spinning celestial bodies should repel other objects? Or super-heat themselves and disintegrate? How about THEY SPIN AND NOTHING HAPPENS?

Think about it.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 12:42:17 PM
Yours and mine existence....

NOT proof at all many people claim their deity is the reason for ' Yours and mine existence ' you all can not be right , try again.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 12:43:28 PM
NOT proof at all many people claim their deity is the reason for ' Yours and mine existence ' you all can not be right , try again.

Where did you come from then?  Where did the first human come from if not God?  I have writings that explain to me where the first came from that I believe, what reading are you doing that tells you your first existence, with it being different than I.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 12:44:02 PM
Fixed

Please, just stop. You are embarrassing yourself.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 12:45:47 PM
I would love to hear a valid reason-other than Intelligent Design- that explains why forces like gravity exist in the first place.

You can go into how gravity works and what have you, but you still cannot explain WHY it happens in the first place.

Maybe spinning celestial bodies should repel other objects? Or super-heat themselves and disintegrate? How about THEY SPIN AND NOTHING HAPPENS?

Think about it.

Here's the thing. There hasn't got to be a "WHY".
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 19, 2011, 12:47:16 PM
I would love to hear a valid reason-other than Intelligent Design- that explains why forces like gravity exist in the first place.

You can go into how gravity works and what have you, but you still cannot explain WHY it happens in the first place.

Maybe spinning celestial bodies should repel other objects? Or super-heat themselves and disintegrate? How about THEY SPIN AND NOTHING HAPPENS?

Think about it.

Oh great, another "this universe happens to be the way it is, therefore god exists" argument.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 12:50:43 PM
Where did you come from then?  Where did the first human come from if not God?  I have writings that explain to me where the first came from that I believe, what reading are you doing that tells you your first existence, with it being different than I.

When you say God did it you have explained NOTHING at all.

and a dozen of other groups all have writings that explain to them where they came from , you all CAN NOT be correct especially when they're all in conflict with each other.

your proof is nonsense , they all have the same proof
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 12:50:47 PM
Here's the thing. There hasn't got to be a "WHY".

You demand proof of God's existence, as if a Christian is supposed to text Jesus and make Him appear, and yet, when asked for a reason why you believe in a haphazard chaotic universe that just up and created itself, you become incredulous. Why is that?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 12:51:01 PM
Where did you come from then?  Where did the first human come from if not God?  I have writings that explain to me where the first came from that I believe, what reading are you doing that tells you your first existence, with it being different than I.

Key word being "believe". Go open a dictionary.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 12:52:28 PM
When you say God did it you have explained NOTHING at all.

and a dozen of other groups all have writings that explain to them where they came from , you all CAN NOT be correct especially when they're all in conflict with each other.

your proof is nonsense , they all have the same proof

I have told you where I got my beliefs, the Bible, and obviously it is not enough for you.

Now, I am asking you, your opinion on where you think we all started?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 12:54:44 PM
I have told you where I got my beliefs, the Bible, and obviously it is not enough for you.

Now, I am asking you, your opinion on where you think we all started?

I asked for proof NOT beliefs , prove your God is real.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 12:55:15 PM
Key word being "believe". Go open a dictionary.

I do not have a dictionary handy, so lets start with physics, with you being so intelligent.

Physics has proven, there has to be order before disorder, correct?

Would this not go against your own scientific proof, of this great explosion and things just happened?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 12:56:07 PM
I asked for proof NOT beliefs , prove your God is real.



Even if God showed Himself to you, plain as day, you would not believe. Ever. So why should anyone who does bother?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 12:56:38 PM
I asked for proof NOT beliefs , prove your God is real.



I will as soon as you prove there is NOT one.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 12:56:58 PM
You demand proof of God's existence, as if a Christian is supposed to text Jesus and make Him appear, and yet, when asked for a reason why you believe in a haphazard chaotic universe that just up and created itself, you become incredulous. Why is that?

  Demand? Incredulous?  ???
You are never called upon to prove a negative, that's a law of logic. Reality is the ultimate arbiter of the mind, I am happy dealing with what I know thank you very much.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 19, 2011, 12:59:18 PM
I will as soon as you prove there is NOT one.

Atheists are shaking in their boots.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 12:59:32 PM
I will as soon as you prove there is NOT one.

Never heard this old one before  ::) the onus my friend is on YOU making the claim to back it An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.

I read it in a book and I believe it is most certainly NOT extraordinary proof
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 01:02:55 PM
I do not have a dictionary handy, so lets start with physics, with you being so intelligent.

Physics has proven, there has to be order before disorder, correct?

Would this not go against your own scientific proof, of this great explosion and things just happened?

What explosion?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 01:04:29 PM
Never heard this old one before  ::) the onus my friend is on YOU making the claim to back it An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.

I read it in a book and I believe it is most certainly NOT extraordinary proof

Someone's been watching Cosmos on repeat  ;D

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 01:05:31 PM
What explosion?

I think he means expansion  ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 01:05:57 PM
Never heard this old one before  ::) the onus my friend is on YOU making the claim to back it An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.

I read it in a book and I believe it is most certainly NOT extraordinary proof

I am afraid I can not prove anything to you.  I can only dispute the facts of the extraordinary events of it just happened, is actually more scientifically proven that a God has to exist.

And no, I meant explosion, assuming you folks believed in the "Big Bang Theory"?  But to be as vague as possible, you hide behind sarcasm to run from accountability. 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 01:09:29 PM
I am afraid I can not prove anything to you.  I can only dispute the facts of the extraordinary events of it just happened, is actually more scientifically proven that a God has to exist.

And yet your tried to. it's actually more scientifically proven that a God has to exist? according to whom? creationists?  :-X

throw away your copy of " Of Pandas and people " it's pseudoscience
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 01:10:23 PM
Someone's been watching Cosmos on repeat  ;D


;D
only Millions and Millions of times
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 01:11:07 PM
And yet your tried to. it's actually more scientifically proven that a God has to exist? according to whom? creationists?  :-X

throw away your copy of " Of Pandas and people " it's pseudoscience

According to every physics book ever written...do you understand what energy is?  Do you understand where energy comes from?  Ever seen energy covert to an animated object?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 01:12:23 PM
I am afraid I can not prove anything to you.  I can only dispute the facts of the extraordinary events of it just happened, is actually more scientifically proven that a God has to exist.

And no, I meant explosion, assuming you folks believed in the "Big Bang Theory"?  But to be as vague as possible, you hide behind sarcasm to run from accountability. 

Big bang says nothing about an explosion  ??? you said your were a science student?  ???  ???
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 01:12:32 PM
And yet your tried to. it's actually more scientifically proven that a God has to exist? according to whom? creationists?  :-X

throw away your copy of " Of Pandas and people " it's pseudoscience



What do you expect him/her to rely on, when this is the best evidence they've got to fall back on
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 01:14:18 PM
According to every physics book ever written...do you understand what energy is?  Do you understand where energy comes from?  Ever seen energy covert to an animated object?

Hahahahahaha every physics book? boy you paint with broad strokes  :-\

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 01:16:53 PM
Big bang says nothing about an explosion  ??? you said your were a science student?  ???  ???

So you do believe in the Big Bang theory to know there was no explosion, instead a balloon like release of pressure?  Your a step ahead of most..however, in this pressure,  is it energy being released?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 01:17:11 PM


What do you expect him/her to rely on, when this is the best evidence they've got to fall back on
:-X 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 01:19:01 PM
Hahahahahaha every physics book? boy you paint with broad strokes  :-\



I think he's breaking some sort of world record here for making the least amount of sense in the greatest number of words.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 01:20:42 PM
Hahahahahaha every physics book? boy you paint with broad strokes  :-\



About as broad as you are trying to go into what you believe.   ;D

However, I will give you a few of the authors I use about everyday in my word.  Faiz M. Khan, Carlos A Perez and Luther W. Brady.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 01:20:49 PM
So you do believe in the Big Bang theory to know there was no explosion, instead a balloon like release of pressure?  Your a step ahead of most..however, in this pressure,  is it energy being released?

Fail.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 01:20:58 PM
So you do believe in the Big Bang theory to know there was no explosion, instead a balloon like release of pressure?  Your a step ahead of most..however, in this pressure,  is it energy being released?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

knock yourself out ' science student ' alas I fear is this the first time you may be reading it if you think there was an explosion , sounds like your getting your sources from the creationists
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 01:23:46 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

knock yourself out ' science student ' alas I fear is this the first time you may be reading it if you think there was an explosion , sounds like your getting your sources from the creationists

I have ask several times, and no one including you brainiacs that are pretending to be intelligent with your thesaurus sitting handy, please explain in your theories how energy was converted to any living creature? Simple question for a simple minded person like me. Should be easy for you brainiacs.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 01:30:00 PM
I have ask several times, and no one including you brainiacs that are pretending to be intelligent with your thesaurus sitting handy, please explain in your theories how energy was converted to any living creature? Simple question for a simple minded person like me. Should be easy for you brainiacs.

Yeah real simple question  ::) I don't know how or if and because science may not know how or if you Bronze age myth doesn't win by default , again when you claim it was God , YOU have not explained a single thing what so ever and are quite comfortable with it yet you demand science to explain to you , don't be a hypocrite.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 01:32:15 PM
Yeah real simple question  ::) I don't know how or if and because science may not know how or if you Bronze age myth doesn't win by default , again when you claim it was God , YOU have not explained a single thing what so ever and are quite comfortable with it yet you demand science to explain to you , don't be a hypocrite.



Exactly. He wants to have his cake and eat it. Lending from whatever fits his comments at that moment in time without actually having any significant correlation to what he is saying.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr.Ill on May 19, 2011, 01:35:10 PM
Yeah real simple question  ::) I don't know how or if and because science may not know how or if you Bronze age myth doesn't win by default , again when you claim it was God , YOU have not explained a single thing what so ever and are quite comfortable with it yet you demand science to explain to you , don't be a hypocrite.



Science has proven one thing, there was a phenomenon that occurred, can we both agree on this....in my world that phenomenon is known as God, and yours __________ you will have to fill in the blank.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 01:36:48 PM
 Demand? Incredulous?  ???
You are never called upon to prove a negative, that's a law of logic. Reality is the ultimate arbiter of the mind, I am happy dealing with what I know thank you very much.

So what you are saying is that you blindly believe that what you see "JUST CAME TO BE" and you do not even seek to know where everything comes from, or why it happens. "It just is" am I right?

How are you so different from a closed-minded religious person? Do you even see the similarity?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 01:42:09 PM
>:(

 ;D


I have many friends that are unbelievers....and our relationships have relatively no tension because of their unbelief (other than I long for them to believe).

But I agree that relationships w/people w/completely opposite political beliefs def. can be tension provoking.  

I didn't mean that Stella; of course you are an internet friend. I just meant in real life.

So you think differing political beliefs cause problems but not religious ones? I kind of find that strange.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 01:45:14 PM
Science has proven one thing, there was a phenomenon that occurred, can we both agree on this....in my world that phenomenon is known as God, and yours __________ you will have to fill in the blank.

Science didn't write the bible , you consider yourself a Christian you have your story on how things unfolded and not only doesn't it contradict the other inhabitants version of how their deity created everything , it directly contradicts how science says things unfolded.

You're an atheist like I am , you're an atheist to someone else's religion and are in just as much danger as I am in going to hell because in the end you can't be 100% sure you picked the ' right ' story to believe in.

what we know for a fact is God is a story in a book written by men everything else people are forced to ' believe in ' because that's all they can do , if God was a fact there would be no need for religion or a belief in it
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 01:45:57 PM
I think history is far better at disarming religious belief than science because it always goes back to the beginning of the universe, which no one knows. But we can look at history and how religions developed and borrowed from each other different concepts; today we only look at the 'final product' as it were but millenia ago things were very different.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 01:48:03 PM
So what you are saying is that you blindly believe that what you see "JUST CAME TO BE" and you do not even seek to know where everything comes from, or why it happens. "It just is" am I right?

How are you so different from a closed-minded religious person? Do you even see the similarity?

You keep using the word believe, you are missing the point. I seek the truth and rely on what I know in the mean time, no matter how uncomforting either may be. I am not closed nor open-minded, neither are a positive trait. I am actively thinking.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 01:48:30 PM
You're an atheist like I am , you're an atheist to someone else's religion and are in just as much danger as I am in going to hell because in the end you can't be 100% sure you picked the ' right ' story to believe in.
 so everyone is in danger of going to hell?



if God was a fact there would be no need for religion or a belief in it
true  ;)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 01:50:07 PM
So what you are saying is that you blindly believe that what you see "JUST CAME TO BE" and you do not even seek to know where everything comes from, or why it happens. "It just is" am I right?

How are you so different from a closed-minded religious person? Do you even see the similarity?
;)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 01:52:21 PM
Oh no, Tdongz has returned.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 01:53:06 PM
 so everyone is in danger of going to hell?


 true  ;)

Not everyone if you just happen to pick the ' right ' religion I guess they luck out , good luck deciding.  ;)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 01:56:23 PM
You keep using the word believe, you are missing the point. I seek the truth and rely on what I know in the mean time, no matter how uncomforting either may be. I am not closed nor open-minded, neither are a positive trait. I am actively thinking.

The point is you do NOT seek the truth!

If you did, you would seriously question how physical laws and properties came to be.

You would sit there and wonder why energy turns to mass when it is slowed down. That all matter is simply energy dulled to a slow vibration. That a spinning body will create gravity in greater or lesser amounts based on it's rate of spin and density.

Then you will sit back and see the universe and realize that everything is perfect, it was all planned out by a higher intelligence.

I think the only mistake people ever made was to characterize God as being an old man with a gray beard who sits on a cloud and judges everything you do. False!

You do not seek truth, you seek ignorance. Go back and read everything you said to me and you will realize this.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 01:57:33 PM
Not everyone if you just happen to pick the ' right ' religion I guess they luck out , good luck deciding.  ;)

so there one group of people that arent in danger of hell, but the rest are. ok. well now i know why you keep fighting against God. you think your going to hell! dont worry nd, hell is made up, its not real. use your brain! hell is revenge, revenge is not a valid motive, its the emotional response given by weak individuals, and god is all mighty. trust in god there is no hell  :)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 01:59:03 PM
The point is you do NOT seek the truth!

If you did, you would seriously question how physical laws and properties came to be.

You would sit there and wonder why energy turns to mass when it is slowed down. That all matter is simply energy dulled to a slow vibration. That a spinning body will create gravity in greater or lesser amounts based on it's rate of spin and density.

Then you will sit back and see the universe and realize that everything is perfect, it was all planned out by a higher intelligence.

I think the only mistake people ever made was to characterize God as being an old man with a gray beard who sits on a cloud and judges everything you do. False!

You do not seek truth, you seek ignorance. Go back and read everything you said to me and you will realize this.


methyl you have made some great strides since you desired ot become a natty ifbb pro..  ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 01:59:49 PM
so there one group of people that arent in danger of hell, but the rest are. ok. well now i know why you keep fighting against God. you think your going to hell! dont worry nd, hell is made up, its not real. use your brain! hell is revenge, revenge is not a valid motive, its the emotional response given by weak individuals, and god is all mighty. trust in god there is no hell  :)

How are the syringes feeling these days?

Do you prefer shoulder, thigh or ass injections? ???
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: PJim on May 19, 2011, 02:00:16 PM
The point is you do NOT seek the truth!

If you did, you would seriously question how physical laws and properties came to be.

You would sit there and wonder why energy turns to mass when it is slowed down. That all matter is simply energy dulled to a slow vibration. That a spinning body will create gravity in greater or lesser amounts based on it's rate of spin and density.

Then you will sit back and see the universe and realize that everything is perfect, it was all planned out by a higher intelligence.

I think the only mistake people ever made was to characterize God as being an old man with a gray beard who sits on a cloud and judges everything you do. False!

You do not seek truth, you seek ignorance. Go back and read everything you said to me and you will realize this.

The only conclusion I have come to is that I am flogging a dead horse  :-\
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 02:00:44 PM
so there one group of people that arent in danger of hell, but the rest are. ok. well now i know why you keep fighting against God. you think your going to hell! dont worry nd, hell is made up, its not real. use your brain! hell is revenge, revenge is not a valid motive, its the emotional response given by weak individuals, and god is all mighty. trust in god there is no hell  :)

Because I figure out hell was just a story along with heaven when I was a child  ;) if you believe in the God story you have to believe in hell you can't separate the two , oh wait yes you can when you cherry pick what you like and dismiss what you don't which you sir are very guilty of  ;)

I would have to believe in hell to be scared of going , I'm in no fear of going to hell than I am of not going to heaven because in the end both are just stories in a book.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 02:02:30 PM
Because I figure out hell was just a story along with heaven when I was a child  ;) if you believe in the God story you have to believe in hell you can't separate the two , oh wait yes you can when you cherry pick what you like and dismiss what you don't which you sir are very guilty of  ;)

I would have to believe in hell to be scared of going , I'm in no fear of going to hell than I am of not going to heaven because in the end both are just stories in a book.


the only thing youve proved is that you can not think on your own. its either atheism or strict fundamentalism in your eyes.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 02:07:07 PM

the only thing youve proved is that you can not think on your own. its either atheism or strict fundamentalism in your eyes.

So it's the thighs then?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 02:08:52 PM

the only thing youve proved is that you can not think on your own. its either atheism or strict fundamentalism in your eyes.

No it's because I was brought up a ' born again Christian ' and thinking all on my own lead me to the conclusion there is NO God , I figured this out long before I ever knew what the Big Bang was or Natural Selection was they just reaffirmed it , I dared to think for myself instead of just buying into the whole story

You like the God story and threw away anything you didn't like about it and created a nice little version for yourself , you think cherry-picking is thinking for yourself?  ::)

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 02:14:12 PM
The only conclusion I have come to is that I am flogging a dead horse  :-\


Ditto

I have some great reading for you if I can find it. There were some great astro-physicist theists who came to my church a couple months back. Not all Christians are blind sheeple with nothing intelligent to say, there are quite a few who back Faith with Science. Science ultimately proves God's existence, trust me on this.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 02:17:14 PM
No it's because I was brought up a ' born again Christian ' and thinking all on my own lead me to the conclusion there is NO God , I figured this out long before I ever knew what the Big Bang was or Natural Selection was they just reaffirmed it , I dared to think for myself instead of just buying into the whole story

You like the God story and threw away anything you didn't like about it and created a nice little version for yourself , you think cherry-picking is thinking for yourself?  ::)



denying the bible story and god as a child is something that indicates free thinking.

very true.


i grew up in a religious household but i NEVER believed, ever.  i remember being 4-5 years old and thinking how stupid it all was, how it was just a fairy tale to make people feel good about death, and how obvious it was that it was all fake, being that science so directly contradicts it.


a young mind will always reject god, its simply too unsophisticated to grasp something as meaningful. human beings arent supposed to be able to figure out what this life is all about before passing on, only the super intelligent truth seekers can manage to become enlightened before passing. to come to know god on your own is something to be proud of. not living in  ignorance your entire life. or blindly accpeting religious dogma without ever thinkgin about it or even really believing it yourself.


i never cheryy picked. i have used logic, not religion, to come to my undersdtanding of god. and once i sumbitted god has helped me learn more. even before i submitted god was helping me, as he is helping you and everryone else, but only in the ways in which the person can actually benefit from.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 02:19:03 PM
So it's the thighs then?
thighs are horrible. asking for soreness doing that.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: che on May 19, 2011, 02:22:18 PM

 i remember being 4-5 years old and thinking how stupid it all was, how it was just a fairy tale to make people feel good about death, and how obvious it was that it was all fake,


 ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 02:23:33 PM
denying the bible story and god as a child is something that indicates free thinking.

very true.


i grew up in a religious household but i NEVER believed, ever.  i remember being 4-5 years old and thinking how stupid it all was, how it was just a fairy tale to make people feel good about death, and how obvious it was that it was all fake, being that science so directly contradicts it.


a young mind will always reject god, its simply too unsophisticated to grasp something as meaningful. human beings arent supposed to be able to figure out what this life is all about before passing on, only the super intelligent truth seekers can manage to become enlightened before passing. to come to know god on your own is something to be proud of. not living in  ignorance your entire life. or blindly accpeting religious dogma without ever thinkgin about it or even really believing it yourself.


i never cheryy picked. i have used logic, not religion, to come to my undersdtanding of god. and once i sumbitted god has helped me learn more. even before i submitted god was helping me, as he is helping you and everryone else, but only in the ways in which the person can actually benefit from.
a young mind will always reject god

quite the contrary , I don't even know where to begin with this one , in fact a young mind is more apt to buy into this fairy tale among others


 
Quote
i never cheryy picked. i have used logic, not religion, to come to my undersdtanding of god. and once i sumbitted god has helped me learn more. even before i submitted god was helping me, as he is helping you and everryone else, but only in the ways in which the person can actually benefit from.

you have you dismissed hell because it doesn't fit your version of it what you think the story is or should be , that's cherry picking people do it all the time because the story is out-dated and wrong on many levels to it gets tweaked and adjusted which is why the Catholic church agrees with evolution and now claims it was guided by God's hand  ::)

God is a story in a book , you'll NEVER escape this fact.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 19, 2011, 02:28:28 PM
No it's because I was brought up a ' born again Christian ' and thinking all on my own lead me to the conclusion there is NO God , I figured this out long before I ever knew what the Big Bang was or Natural Selection was they just reaffirmed it , I dared to think for myself instead of just buying into the whole story

You like the God story and threw away anything you didn't like about it and created a nice little version for yourself , you think cherry-picking is thinking for yourself?  ::)


God doesnt necessarily mean the christian god, nor does the creator necessarily have ANYTHING to do with the christian religion or ANY religion.
I believe there was a creator, I cannot possibly fathom that the universe and everything in it happened purely by random, blind luck.
Like Bombz said, youre looking at it like "Here are my options, organized religion or atheism". Or at least thats how youre acting.

I see methyl gets what I was getting at earlier in the thread, science is always looking for a way to prove there was no creator or there is no god, its almost like theyve made it their agenda, but the more they discover about the universe and how it began, the more it makes me believe there had to have been some uber advanved/powerful being that put all these events into motion.
If you step back from everything, you can see how all the religions are tied in, and the fact that they have been rewritten by man makes them all the more fallible, but who is to say that like everyone else in life, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle?
Nothing. There is NO proof for or against a god, so to just dismiss it as a stupid idea IMO is just as silly as anything else.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 02:29:43 PM
the first thing i must address is this issue of "cherry picking"



so the only place god has ever been mentioned is in one book?

 and that one story is the only story that can be true?

anything to the contrary is 'cherry picking'?

so what about, as you have submittted, the fact that there are several religions with different god stories?

which one is the cherry picker?



every story about god ever written or told (and god has been around looonnnngggggg before judaism) has been an attempt by man to understand and explain him to other men.

the bible is an attempt that was sanctioned by jesus, and thus people follow it because they believe jesus was the son of god.


outside of that, my guess is as good as anyone elses. the bible was just "cherry picking" from previous stories.






Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 19, 2011, 02:30:43 PM
a young mind will always reject god

quite the contrary , I don't even know where to begin with this one , in fact a young mind is more apt to buy into this fairy tale among others


 
you have you dismissed hell because it doesn't fit your version of it what you think the story is or should be , that's cherry picking people do it all the time because the story is out-dated and wrong on many levels to it gets tweaked and adjusted which is why the Catholic church agrees with evolution and now claims it was guided by God's hand  ::)

God is a story in a book , you'll NEVER escape this fact.
God is a story in ONE book, yes, but the IDEA is not tied to christianity nor any other religion specifically, no matter how hard youre trying to make that point. I dont understand why you of all people cant see that, youre trying to say that if someone believes in a higher power/intelligent design/God that they have to wholesale buy into the Christian religion and thats flat out wrong.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 02:32:08 PM
God doesnt necessarily mean the christian god, nor does the creator necessarily have ANYTHING to do with the christian religion or ANY religion.
I believe there was a creator, I cannot possibly fathom that the universe and everything in it happened purely by random, blind luck.
Like Bombz said, youre looking at it like "Here are my options, organized religion or atheism". Or at least thats how youre acting.

I see methyl gets what I was getting at earlier in the thread, science is always looking for a way to prove there was no creator or there is no god, its almost like theyve made it their agenda, but the more they discover about the universe and how it began, the more it makes me believe there had to have been some uber advanved/powerful being that put all these events into motion.
If you step back from everything, you can see how all the religions are tied in, and the fact that they have been rewritten by man makes them all the more fallible, but who is to say that like everyone else in life, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle?
Nothing. There is NO proof for or against a god, so to just dismiss it as a stupid idea IMO is just as silly as anything else.

I'm open to that idea , now if someone had any proof to back that position up  ;) just because the bible and religion are turn-offs to some people who want to believe doesn't make their story any more true

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 19, 2011, 02:32:31 PM
the first thing i must address is this issue of "cherry picking"



so the only place god has ever been mentioned is in one book?

 and that one story is the only story that can be true?

anything to the contrary is 'cherry picking'?

so what about, as you have submittted, the fact that there are several religions with different god stories?

which one is the cherry picker?



every story about god ever written or told (and god has been around looonnnngggggg before judaism) has been an attempt by man to understand and explain him to other men.

the bible is an attempt that was sanctioned by jesus, and thus people follow it because they believe jesus was the son of god.


outside of that, my guess is as good as anyone elses. the bible was just "cherry picking" from previous stories.







You and I think along the same lines.
When I look at all the different forms of religion, I see the same general idea told in several different ways by different cultures.
Its not which one is right or wrong, its that they all have different forms of the same story and no one is really sure where it all started.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 02:34:04 PM
on the issue of the young minds...   a young, INTELLIGENT mind will reject religion and the bible story.

a young, average or below average mind will not even begin to think on such a deep level yet, will not question his elders who are obviously wiser than him, and thus will accept whatever it is told, like religion and the bible story.


as the average person grows older they think on their own and often times wind up at the same place the intelligent person was at when it was a child. denying the bible story.


as the intelligent person grows up they hopefully focus their attention to wisdom and truth, asking themselves meaningful questions, and come to find out that god does exist.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 19, 2011, 02:35:23 PM
I'm open to that idea , now if someone had any proof to back that position up  ;) just because the bible and religion are turn-offs to some people who want to believe doesn't make their story any more true


Youre going under the assumption that as human beings, we actually have the ability to explain everything and comprehend everything around us.
We dont.
There is a lot of things that we simply cant explain as humans, especially considering how insignificant we are in the grand scheme of the universe.
I guess where Im different, I believe that there is things that I simply cant fathom or understand, vs others who think that because they cant see something right now means it CANNOT exist.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 19, 2011, 02:36:22 PM
on the issue of the young minds...   a young, INTELLIGENT mind will reject religion and the bible story.

a young, average or below average mind will not even begin to think on such a deep level yet, will not question his elders who are obviously wiser than him, and thus will accept whatever it is told, like religion and the bible story.


as the average person grows older they think on their own and often times wind up at the same place the intelligent person was at when it was a child. denying the bible story.


as the intelligent person grows up they hopefully focus their attention to wisdom and truth, asking themselves meaningful questions, and come to find out that god does exist.

Finally he will lose his mind and suck oil based ethers directly out of the syringe.

Fixed
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 02:37:37 PM
proof


causality

free will

eternity

infinite divisibility of matter

universe set up in a progressive manner



these are just observable things that are facts that provide evidence.



but the most valuable evidence comes from experience of gods wisdom
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 02:38:49 PM
God is a story in ONE book, yes, but the IDEA is not tied to christianity nor any other religion specifically, no matter how hard youre trying to make that point. I dont understand why you of all people cant see that, youre trying to say that if someone believes in a higher power/intelligent design/God that they have to wholesale buy into the Christian religion and thats flat out wrong.

You can buy into any version of the God story you'd like I don't care but in the end you're just basing it off of their version of the story omitting the parts you dislike and it doesn't make it any more true even if it's more palatable , it's just an undated version of the old story
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 02:39:30 PM
You can buy into any version of the God story you'd like I don't care but in the end you're just basing it off of their version of the story omitting the parts you dislike and it doesn't make it any more true even if it's more palatable , it's just an undated version of the old story
so where is the original story from then ?

 ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 02:45:11 PM
Youre going under the assumption that as human beings, we actually have the ability to explain everything and comprehend everything around us.
We dont.
There is a lot of things that we simply cant explain as humans, especially considering how insignificant we are in the grand scheme of the universe.
I guess where Im different, I believe that there is things that I simply cant fathom or understand, vs others who think that because they cant see something right now means it CANNOT exist.

Nope I'm not assuming that in the least, no rational person who follows science knows that we can't explain everything , science will tell you this up-front  it can't and it's why science is a self-correcting entity and constantly updating itself , I know how small and inconsequential we are in the scheme of things believe me

Lots of things can be responsible for the Universe/Multi-Verse and just because we don't know doesn't mean God gets the credit

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 02:48:41 PM
You can buy into any version of the God story you'd like I don't care but in the end you're just basing it off of their version of the story omitting the parts you dislike and it doesn't make it any more true even if it's more palatable , it's just an undated version of the old story
so where is the original story from then ?

 ;D





Lots of things can be responsible for the Universe/Multi-Verse

wrong
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 02:51:01 PM
so where is the original story from then ?

 ;D

At first it was oral tradition passed down from generation-to-generation , then it was written down. God was an explanation for what we didn't know or couldn't explain , science has replaced God in the explanation department and with their explanations people still want to piggy-back a God-figure into them

this will give you a great idea on how God and the religion stories work in action

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=1959-cargo-cults-melanesia
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 02:52:24 PM





wrong

I was playing devil's advocate  ;) and you have a theory that God was responsible for it now only if you had the hard data to back it up you could collect your Nobel Prize  ;)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 02:55:02 PM
At first it was oral tradition passed down from generation-to-generation , then it was written down. God was an explanation for what we didn't know or couldn't explain , science has replaced God in the explanation department and with their explanations people still want to piggy-back a God-figure into them

this will give you a great idea on how God and the religion stories work in action

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=1959-cargo-cults-melanesia
well thats not true, thats just how judaism and western religions in particular came to be.  but ill let that slide for now and operate just on that issue alone.

so those people who talked of god before any bible was written, they were cherrry picking? from what exactly? if god is just a story in a book?


and where did  these people get the idea of god anyways? surely as you have pointed out there wasnt any written story for them to go by..


 ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 02:59:03 PM
well thats not true, thats just how judaism and western religions in particular came to be.  but ill let that slide for now and operate just on that issue alone.

so those people who talked of god before any bible was written, they were cherrry picking? from what exactly? if god is just a story in a book?


and where did  these people get the idea of god anyways? surely as you have pointed out there wasnt any written story for them to go by..


 ;D

It's true of ALL religions , God was an explanation for the unexplained and he often takes on very human characteristics and flaws , God is a human creation and you can NOT ever escape that. God is the primitive mind's attempt and putting the pieces together and it's no longer needed  

and if by ' talking to him ( God ) ' you mean talking to their consciousness  , I would assume ever since the human mind started to develop
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 03:04:25 PM
It's true of ALL religions , God was an explanation for the unexplained and he often takes on very human characteristics and flaws , God is a human creation and you can NOT ever escape that. God is the primitive mind's attempt and putting the pieces together and it's no longer needed  

and if by ' talking to him ( God ) ' you mean talking to their consciousness  , I would assume ever since the human mind started to develop

so where did the god story come from ? who came up with it? and where did that person get the idea?   i know you obviously dont know the person name or anything else, but you seem to know that god is nothing more than a story and anything to the contrary of that story is cherry picking, so to me it seems a very striking contradiction that god owuld have been around before that story was ever written, and in different forms than in that story as well.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 19, 2011, 03:18:44 PM
Bullshit, what a ridiculous statement.  

Anyone who isn't agnostic is a fool as there is no conclusive evidence either for, or against, a creator. Though, the evidence against the need for a creator is constantly mounting. Agnostism is the only logical choice, for now.

Oh yeah...What does it mean to be agnostic.  It means you aren't sure.  You are uncertain.  You are on the fence. You can't make up your fucking mind.

That is bullshit. And believe me, you do not wish to go there.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 19, 2011, 03:20:09 PM
What bet am I trying to hedge?

I am not going to do the work for you, kid.  Get a dictionary and a mind to go with it. FTN.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 19, 2011, 03:21:25 PM
so where did the god story come from ? who came up with it? and where did that person get the idea?   i know you obviously dont know the person name or anything else, but you seem to know that god is nothing more than a story and anything to the contrary of that story is cherry picking, so to me it seems a very striking contradiction that god owuld have been around before that story was ever written, and in different forms than in that story as well.

Which proves there is NO God , it only proves very primitive minds were trying to make sense of the world around and all came up with a conclusion and shows all of their stories contradict each others for therefore NONE of them can be right

God talked to everyone personally and yet none of them could get the story straight , boy God needs to be a better communicator , so many people have a God story yet none of them agree on what , who , she , him , her , is it , is or wants or needs and this is somehow proof of God?



Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 19, 2011, 03:21:48 PM
Bullshit, what a ridiculous statement.  

Anyone who isn't agnostic is a fool as there is no conclusive evidence either for, or against, a creator. Though, the evidence against the need for a creator is constantly mounting. Agnostism is the only logical choice, for now.



LOL

Theist: Agnostics and atheists are fools!

Atheist:  Theists and agnostics are fools!

Agnostic:  Atheists and theists are fools!

 

;D

I rarely call someone a "fool".  I am much more imaginative than that.   ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 19, 2011, 04:15:47 PM
personal question if you would mind answer, is your wife as devoted to god as you are, was she that before you found god? if not what does she think of the new man of steel?`


all your post about god sounds nuts to me but you seem to be a really happy person

She's 100% on board with me.  We went through some real trauma in 2010 and for the first time in our lives really experienced God's grace, love and power.  Changed my heart completely....I take no credit whatsoever for the change in me.  We've never been happier in our lives and we've been together for 17 years now.  Believe me, others have seen the change as well....some like it and some don't; still, the change is not about me it's about him.  Still have stress and all that mess (I actually have no more stress and responsibility now that before), but I process it all differently now.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 19, 2011, 04:18:54 PM
so where did the god story come from ? who came up with it? and where did that person get the idea?   i know you obviously dont know the person name or anything else, but you seem to know that god is nothing more than a story and anything to the contrary of that story is cherry picking, so to me it seems a very striking contradiction that god owuld have been around before that story was ever written, and in different forms than in that story as well.
God story?....... you have a misconception here of the origin of the "god story" you're assumption is that a fully populated earth was present when God came down to a camp fire and revealed the truth to a chosen few... geez no wonder you think it's silly. Consider the position of a person thinking, God created everything, just for a second (just one second,if you're even capable of it) one man and one woman only, from them came several million with a chosen lineage (from the first generation to the present) in the midst of the growth of human civilization. Through this lineage accurate historical information directly from the first generation is past down.. to create a compilation of historical events and moments in history that could never have been challenged (because they are true). Why would this be hard to do or even hard to believe especially when modern archeology is constantly shedding light on  the matter
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 19, 2011, 04:24:28 PM
It always bugs me to hear a Christian infer that I lack belief in a god because I somehow want to get away with being a bad person. Problem is, I'm not a bad person and placed next to the average Christian would probably win in a morality test.

Have you considered Christians like the concept of a God that expects them to screw up and then forgives them for it?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you were a bad person.   We're all broken sinners....every one of us.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 04:29:28 PM
God story?....... you have a misconception here of the origin of the "god story" you're assumption is that a fully populated earth was present when God came down to a camp fire and revealed the truth to a chosen few... geez no wonder you think it's silly. Consider the position of a person thinking, God created everything, just for a second (just one second,if you're even capable of it) one man and one woman only, from them came several million with a chosen lineage (from the first generation to the present) in the midst of the growth of human civilization. Through this lineage accurate historical information directly from the first generation is past down.. to create a compilation of historical events and moments in history that could never have been challenged (because they are true). Why would this be hard to do or even hard to believe especially when modern archeology is constantly shedding light on  the matter

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/0624_050624_spencerwells.html

If anyone is curious, do a search for "adam gene" you will find some interesting shit. Basically geneologists are proving that we all descend from one male in africa someplace some 6000 years ago.

Knock yourself out with that one atheists.

Actually, here is a challenge- to ALL ATHEISTS- I will renounce my faith if you can prove ONE INACCURACY in the Bible. JUST ONE.

If you can not, you have to admit to yourself that faith is real as is the God that we worship.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 19, 2011, 04:50:15 PM
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/0624_050624_spencerwells.html

If anyone is curious, do a search for "adam gene" you will find some interesting shit. Basically geneologists are proving that we all descend from one male in africa someplace some 6000 years ago.

Knock yourself out with that one atheists.

Actually, here is a challenge- to ALL ATHEISTS- I will renounce my faith if you can prove ONE INACCURACY in the Bible. JUST ONE.
If you can not, you have to admit to yourself that faith is real as is the God that we worship.


x2, I'm with you on this one......millions have tried no one has succeeded, but we are dealing with Getbig here, they are a special breed maybe they will have better luck ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 04:55:16 PM
x2, I'm with you on this one......millions have tried no one has succeeded, but we are dealing with Getbig here, they are a special breed maybe they will have better luck ;D

Attempting to discredit Christians has probably moved more scientific minds to Faith than any other single endeavor. I welcome all challengers  :)

The challenge is open- and I know all the knowitall atheists are going to read this- so, make my day. Prove me wrong.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 19, 2011, 05:04:25 PM
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/0624_050624_spencerwells.html

If anyone is curious, do a search for "adam gene" you will find some interesting shit. Basically geneologists are proving that we all descend from one male in africa someplace some 6000 years ago.

Knock yourself out with that one atheists.

Actually, here is a challenge- to ALL ATHEISTS- I will renounce my faith if you can prove ONE INACCURACY in the Bible. JUST ONE.

If you can not, you have to admit to yourself that faith is real as is the God that we worship.



Do you merely talk your faith or do you actually live it.  Anyone can claim faith, few can actually live up to it.  For instance, do you take steroids to build muscle?  I am not certain but I do believe that I have seen you profess as much on these forums...If so, your faith is now without merit.  And not just in my eye, but if you are to believe in the Christ then it would most definitely be in his as well.  "Tean GH15", eh?

You cannot serve two masters.

You really do not want to go up against me with regard to Christianity and its tenets.  I am not a believer but I know the Word better than you ever shall.  I think Jesus of Nazareth was a great  man.  I just do not believe him to be the son of God.  And now to clarify the meaning of my words in bold above.

You are either for Christ with him in you or you are, quite simply for yourself.  The former is difficult to attain while the latter is easy.  It's called being full of shit.  Don't even think about going there.  I am no enemy of genuine followers of the Christ and I do not belittle such for their true faith.  Those that claim it and live otherwise are the true enemies.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 19, 2011, 05:07:54 PM
Attempting to discredit Christians has probably moved more scientific minds to Faith than any other single endeavor. I welcome all challengers  :)

The challenge is open- and I know all the knowitall atheists are going to read this- so, make my day. Prove me wrong.

More often than not, "Christians" discredit themselves by their words and actions.  I don't, as you claim, "know it all".  But I do know a lot more than you. Like I said, I am not your enemy, but you really don't want to go there young man.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 19, 2011, 05:16:26 PM
Do you merely talk your faith or do you actually live it.  Anyone can claim faith, few can actually live up to it.  For instance, do you take steroids to build muscle?  I am not certain but I do believe that I have seen you profess as much on these forums...If so, your faith is now without merit.  And not just in my eye, but if you are to believe in the Christ then it would most definitely be in his as well.  "Tean GH15", eh?

You cannot serve two masters.

You really do not want to go up against me with regard to Christianity and its tenets.  I am not a believer but I know the Word better than you ever shall.  I think Jesus of Nazareth was a great  man.  I just do not believe him to be the son of God.  And now to clarify the meaning of my words in bold above.

You are either for Christ with him in you or you are, quite simply for yourself.  The former is difficult to attain while the latter is easy.  It's called being full of shit.  Don't even think about going there.  I am no enemy of genuine followers of the Christ and I do not belittle such for their true faith.  Those that claim it and live otherwise are the true enemies.
You claim to know the Bible while implying that you need to be flawless in order to be a christian...this type of thinking leads me to believe you've never read the Bible ever. Chosen men and respected by God have done things you couldn't even imagine,  Abraham, Moses , Samson, David
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 19, 2011, 05:19:08 PM
You are totally misguided on female bodybuilding.

Let me put it this way- the she-beasts that you see and talk about, they weren't all that attractive (to you and I) from the start.

A pretty girl with muscles is just that- and when a girl diets down, it ain't all that attractive, but it is only temporary.

It's kind of short sighted imo to take a not very attractive woman and post a picture of her dieted down and on androgens and say "SEE! THIS IS WHY I HATE WOMENS BODYBUILDING!"

There are plenty of girls with muscle who are sexy as fuck. Most are complete horndogs are well  :-*

The Christians I know, the true Christians, do not speak in such a manner. Note the bold type above.  Your words, oh follower of Christ and firm believer in God.  If you knew the Bible at all you would know that Christ spoke of such as you.  He referred to those that would be found wanting.  Those that cried out, but Lord!  Look at all we said and did in your name!

And he said to them, I know you not.  And why?  Because like you, they knew of him but they didn't really know him. Your words and actions show as much.  Game, set, match.  You lose.  Fuck That Noise.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 19, 2011, 05:23:00 PM
You claim to know the Bible while implying that you need to be flawless in order to be a christian...this type of thinking leads me to believe you've never read the Bible ever. Chosen men and respected by God have done things you couldn't even imagine,  Abraham, Moses , Samson, David

Foolish child.  I don't merely claim to know, because it is there for all to know.  You only need open not just your eyes, simpleton, but your heart, mind and soul.

I don't believe, but I know that there is much wisdom in the words of Jesus of Nazareth.  Don't just talk it, kid.  Live it. Otherwise, you are a lying sack of shit that just wants to do what he wants to do and then claim faith when he's caught.  Fuck That Noise.

You are no match for me and that's because I know and speak the truth that you and so many others ignore.  Or you can simply belittle the faith you so loudly profess.  Your choice.  Later, kid.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 05:26:14 PM
The Christians I know, the true Christians, do not speak in such a manner. Note the bold type above.  Your words, oh follower of Christ and firm believer in God.  If you knew the Bible at all you would know that Christ spoke of such as you.  He referred to those that would be found wanting.  Those that cried out, but Lord!  Look at all we said and did in your name!

And he said to them, I know you not.  And why?  Because like you, they knew of him but they didn't really know him. Your words and actions show as much.  Game, set, match.  You lose.  Fuck That Noise.

I can say what I please, it has nothing to do with my faith.

Out of respect for the elderly I will stop there- but your attempt to judge me (as only God can) has already proven you are a false prophet. I bid you good day.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 05:26:51 PM
Do you merely talk your faith or do you actually live it.  Anyone can claim faith, few can actually live up to it.  For instance, do you take steroids to build muscle?  I am not certain but I do believe that I have seen you profess as much on these forums...If so, your faith is now without merit.  And not just in my eye, but if you are to believe in the Christ then it would most definitely be in his as well.  "Tean GH15", eh?

You cannot serve two masters.

You really do not want to go up against me with regard to Christianity and its tenets.  I am not a believer but I know the Word better than you ever shall.  I think Jesus of Nazareth was a great  man.  I just do not believe him to be the son of God.  And now to clarify the meaning of my words in bold above.

You are either for Christ with him in you or you are, quite simply for yourself.  The former is difficult to attain while the latter is easy.  It's called being full of shit.  Don't even think about going there.  I am no enemy of genuine followers of the Christ and I do not belittle such for their true faith.  Those that claim it and live otherwise are the true enemies.


The Christians I know, the true Christians, do not speak in such a manner. Note the bold type above.  Your words, oh follower of Christ and firm believer in God.  If you knew the Bible at all you would know that Christ spoke of such as you.  He referred to those that would be found wanting.  Those that cried out, but Lord!  Look at all we said and did in your name!

And he said to them, I know you not.  And why?  Because like you, they knew of him but they didn't really know him. Your words and actions show as much.  Game, set, match.  You lose.  Fuck That Noise.


reeves, please do tell me, where does jesus say steroids are immoral? where does he say muscle chicks are not sexy?

 ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 19, 2011, 05:28:47 PM
Foolish child.  I don't merely claim to know, because it is there for all to know.  You only need open not just your eyes, simpleton, but your heart, mind and soul.

I don't believe, but I know that there is much wisdom in the words of Jesus of Nazareth.  Don't just talk it, kid.  Live it. Otherwise, you are a lying sack of shit that just wants to do what he wants to do and then claim faith when he's caught.  Fuck That Noise.

You are no match for me and that's because I know and speak the truth that you and so many others ignore.  Or you can simply belittle the faith you so loudly profess.  Your choice.  Later, kid.
Is this because I got a rise out of you without it being my intention or is this because you like to insult people and name calling or is it because I'm a 29 year old kid :P
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 05:34:47 PM
God story?....... you have a misconception here of the origin of the "god story" you're assumption is that a fully populated earth was present when God came down to a camp fire and revealed the truth to a chosen few... geez no wonder you think it's silly. Consider the position of a person thinking, God created everything, just for a second (just one second,if you're even capable of it) one man and one woman only, from them came several million with a chosen lineage (from the first generation to the present) in the midst of the growth of human civilization. Through this lineage accurate historical information directly from the first generation is past down.. to create a compilation of historical events and moments in history that could never have been challenged (because they are true). Why would this be hard to do or even hard to believe especially when modern archeology is constantly shedding light on  the matter
im sorry?  are you saying that you think the old testament is fact ?




http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/0624_050624_spencerwells.html

If anyone is curious, do a search for "adam gene" you will find some interesting shit. Basically geneologists are proving that we all descend from one male in africa someplace some 6000 years ago.

Knock yourself out with that one atheists.

Actually, here is a challenge- to ALL ATHEISTS- I will renounce my faith if you can prove ONE INACCURACY in the Bible. JUST ONE.

If you can not, you have to admit to yourself that faith is real as is the God that we worship.


that says that we all descended from a single male in africa 60,000 years ago. not 6,000. and it doesnt mean that evoltuion wasnt responsible for humans, what it means is that the current state of humans is most closely linked to that man. he was the originator of the mutation that caused homosapiens, since him that mutation dominated.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 19, 2011, 05:35:40 PM
I can say what I please, it has nothing to do with my faith.

Out of respect for the elderly I will stop there- but your attempt to judge me (as only God can) has already proven you are a false prophet. I bid you good day.

You are a lying sack of shit that wants to do what you want regardless of the tenets of your supposed faith.  Fuck That Noise.  Your faith is false.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 05:36:12 PM
im sorry?  are you saying that you think the old testament is fact ?



 that says that we all descended from a single male in africa 60,000 years ago. not 6,000. and it doesnt mean that evoltuion wasnt responsible for humans, what it means is that the current state of humans is most closely linked to that man. he was the originator of the mutation that caused homosapiens, since him that mutation dominated.

Interesting...I will have to look into it further, thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 19, 2011, 05:38:43 PM


reeves, please do tell me, where does jesus say steroids are immoral? where does he say muscle chicks are not sexy?

 ;D

Look kid.  Obey the laws.  Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.  You already knew this, you just seem to think others will ignore it.  You follow only your base desires, nothing of God or god is within you and all here know it.  Even you.  Now then.  Have you told your mother you are a pin cushion for men's weenies yet?  Fuck That Noise.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 19, 2011, 05:42:43 PM
Is this because I got a rise out of you without it being my intention or is this because you like to insult people and name calling or is it because I'm a 29 year old kid :P

What you take for a rise is nothing of the sort.  Were I to lambast you, you would be lost.  In other words, you would need a dictionary and a thesaurus.  And no, I do not mean Urban Dictionary.   

29 Years of age, eh?   ;D  I am old enough to be your father and more, but never was I so licentious.  Now then, I am old and in need of rest.  Good night, young man. ;)

Oh yeah...Fuck islam. ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 05:43:28 PM
Look kid.  Obey the laws.  Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.  You already knew this, you just seem to think others will ignore it.  You follow only your base desires, nothing of God or god is within you and all here know it.  Even you.  Now then.  Have you told your mother you are a pin cushion for men's weenies yet?  Fuck That Noise.

ah! you actually attempted to answer! well, bravo for that sir  8)


yes, jesus did tell two men who were trying to tempt him that they should pay taxes to ceasar. it was a wise answer to a question intended to catch him up in a lie, or force him to say something that would have him imprisoned or killed.

so should i pay my taxes? yeah i probably should if i dont want the government to come after me. like jesus, im aware of earthly consequences for earthly actions.


but that quote doesnt mean in any way shape or form that we ought to obey all laws.  i mean, it would be quite easy for me to make a law demanding everyone murder at least two kitty kats everyday. so if i dont obey that law, then im  god is not in me??

 ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: GroinkTropin on May 19, 2011, 05:45:08 PM
You are a lying sack of shit that wants to do what you want regardless of the tenets of your supposed faith.  Fuck That Noise.  Your faith is false.

What is God's chief 2 commandments to His followers?

To have a close personal relationship with Him, and to love thy Neighbor as one would love himself.

Pretty much sums it up. If you think there is anything more important than that, you yourself have false faith and are a false prophet.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: tbombz on May 19, 2011, 05:48:28 PM
What is God's chief 2 commandments to His followers?

To have a close personal relationship with Him, and to love thy Neighbor as one would love himself.

Pretty much sums it up. If you think there is anything more important than that, you yourself have false faith and are a false prophet.

yup. when asked what was the most important thing, if we could only know one thing. jesus said there is one god and love your neighbor. and that sums it up.

 there is no reason to abstain from any pleasure that one desires, just dont hurt anybody else in the process.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 19, 2011, 05:53:50 PM
What is God's chief 2 commandments to His followers?

To have a close personal relationship with Him, and to love thy Neighbor as one would love himself.

Pretty much sums it up. If you think there is anything more important than that, you yourself have false faith and are a false prophet.
I'm an atheist you fucktard.  You are a fake Christian.  Here, if the Bible is true and you die tonight allow me to give you insight into the next words a liar such as yourself will here and that would be from the Christ.

"I know you not."

And all because you never knew him, you only knew of him.  And it took an atheist to tell you what you already knew but refuse to acknowledge.  What a maroon.  You don't have to renounce your faith like you said in that silly post of yours because you shit all over it with nearly every post.

FTN.  Nighty night, kiddo. ;D

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: freespirit on May 20, 2011, 04:14:34 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven


Stephen Hawking: 'There is no heaven; it's a fairy story'
In an exclusive interview with the Guardian, the cosmologist shares his thoughts on death, M-theory, human purpose and our chance existence


 

So because he says so, it must be true? You sound like a worshipper of the science-totem, believing everything a scientist like Hawkings tells you, because he's a famous scientist, so whatever he Say's it must be true?   ::)

Think for yourself, make up your own mind.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 20, 2011, 04:19:29 AM
So because he says so, it must be true? You sound like a worshipper of the science-totem, believing everything a scientist like Hawkings tells you, because he's a famous scientist, so whatever he Say's it must be true?   ::)

Think for yourself, make up your own mind.

De nederlandstaal is de mooiste in de heele wereld!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: DK II on May 20, 2011, 04:20:00 AM
So because he says so, it must be true? You sound like a worshipper of the science-totem, believing everything a scientist like Hawkings tells you, because he's a famous scientist, so whatever he Say's it must be true?   ::)

Think for yourself, make up your own mind.

Yep, especially because GOD has created Stephen Hawkings to not believe in him.  ::) ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Fallsview on May 20, 2011, 04:33:18 AM
PROOF....BOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Marty Champions on May 20, 2011, 07:46:09 AM
the bible says you shouldnt tempt god

by doing steroids you are clearly tempting god to save you much more so than driving a car to work wich is alot safer
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 20, 2011, 07:53:45 AM
You know Reeves, educated, scripturally-informed atheists such as yourself are a secondary reason it is so important for believers to be versed in scripture and live according to their professed faith and all it teaches.  It's the reason I publically admitted my wrongs of the past, prayed for forgiveness and moved away from that lifestyle after Christ brought me back into the fold.  It's unfortuanate, but it's almost a little game atheists play with Christians: be more knowledgeable about the bible than they are and do all you can to trip them up at every turn.  The ole King James version of the bible is a playground for atheists when speaking to the unprepared Christian.  It doesn't change anything about the truth of Christ, but it does expose some nominal believers and publically tarnish their credibility (and that of the body of Christ that they represent) which in turn impacts others that may be listening/reading.  Unfortunately the "bad apples" in the church are sometimes some of it's loudest, uninformed voices.  Or sometimes they're loud, informed voices that criticize and insult other believers and nonbelievers alike.  Either way the atheist wins almost every time.  You can't successfully share the love of Christ with others if others can't see Christ shining through you.  I can't tell you number of times atheists and agnostics reply to me and say, "you know MOS, you sound like a nutjob, but a really happy nutjob that truly beliefs what he says."  Virtually every comment is a compliment wrapped in an insult.  I don't respond to the insults.  It's not that they don't annoy me, but they serve no positive purpose if I allow them to get to me and in turn lash out.  I shed the "holier than thou" attitude a long time ago and fully admit that I don't have all the answers, but I'm getting better.  It's amazing how often the questions of the atheist or agnostic that I can't answer often privately resolve into a situation of me drawing even closer to Christ because I honestly and earnestly seek out an answer and find that answer in scripture, online, at a bookstore, at church, from another person or in prayer.  All I want is for others to come to know the love of Christ that I've come to know.  You know all about scripture so you have a tremendous headstart.  I encourage you to reconcile your heart with Christ and pray about it.  Allow Christ to bridge that gap between your intellect and your heart.  If it's of any consolation, I'll pray for you also.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Top Dog on May 20, 2011, 08:01:19 AM
I love all the geniuses who hang out on a bodybuilding forum who have all the answers to life. The Adonis guy is the best. I find him disturbing and not very bright at all.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: CalvinH on May 20, 2011, 08:32:36 AM
PROOF....BOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thats not Butterbean...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Ropo on May 20, 2011, 08:34:32 AM
So because he says so, it must be true? You sound like a worshipper of the science-totem, believing everything a scientist like Hawkings tells you, because he's a famous scientist, so whatever he Say's it must be true?   ::)

Think for yourself, make up your own mind.

Name one famous christian scientist who has prove his IQ is above 100. There is none. Religion is for idiots with no brains at all. Try to live with that fact.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Top Dog on May 20, 2011, 09:02:55 AM
Name one famous christian scientist who has prove his IQ is above 100. There is none. Religion is for idiots with no brains at all. Try to live with that fact.
I don't think this is the case at all and couldn't disagree more. But I think it's great that you've come up with an opinion.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Captain Equipoise on May 20, 2011, 09:05:12 AM
Hey taylor, you've become such a hardcore believer lately, what did jesus say about taking it in the ass and being  homo  again?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 20, 2011, 09:07:45 AM
PROOF....BOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=376757.0;attach=414236;image)


There is actually an atheist here, The Luke, who not only believes in Big Foot, but he dedicates his life to finding it.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 20, 2011, 09:11:47 AM
Name one famous christian scientist who has prove his IQ is above 100. There is none. Religion is for idiots with no brains at all. Try to live with that fact.

As examples of "good scientists who are sincerely religious", Richard Dawkins names Arthur Peacocke, Russell Stannard, John Polkinghorne and Francis Collins.
- Dawkins, Richard (2006). The God Delusion, 99. ISBN 0-618-68000-4.  

Here are more:

Among the fathers of the so-called modern synthesis, Theodosius Dobzhansky was a Christian and something of an amateur theologian; Sir Ronald Fisher was a deeply devout Anglican who, between founding modern statistics and population genetics, penned articles for church magazines.
- H. Allen Orr, "Gould on God", Can religion and science be happily reconciled?
http://www.bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: dario73 on May 20, 2011, 09:22:36 AM
Name one famous christian scientist who has prove his IQ is above 100. There is none. Religion is for idiots with no brains at all. Try to live with that fact.

Past or Present.

Your statement is beyond idiotic when you take into account that most of the European population over 400 years ago was Christian. Everyone from Galileo to Sir Isaac Newton believed in God. Have you heard of them? Almost every single scientific advancement from that time was by a Christian scientist.  

Presently, we have John Lennox, Jennifer Wiseman, Martin Nowak and Francis Collins. There are many more. All of them would make you look like a retard.

Here you go fool. Check out this link:
http://www.tektonics.org/scim/sciencemony.htm
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: King Shizzo on May 20, 2011, 09:37:14 AM
Jesus is depicted as a bearded, long-haired caucasian.  So does this mean we have to believe that the devil is red-skinned, with horns, a forked tail, and carries a pitch-fork?  How does the Devil find time to shape that awesome pointed goatee of his?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: MAXX on May 20, 2011, 09:43:14 AM
Hawking is a genious but it doesn't take one to figure this out - Every religion has a different god and believes in different shit, so why should westerners be more right than those of Islam who murder westerners in the name of their god!
Gods were invented when humans didn't understand what caused shit - Now we know about the sun, we don't have a sun god, we don't have a moon god, rain god, etc etc etc ..... We just cling on to this final god because we don't believe that when we are dead THATS IT FOR ETERNITY.
Believers carry on if it makes you happy. I wish I could believe but my feet are firmly on the ground and I believe science and common sense.

good post  :)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Fallsview on May 20, 2011, 09:59:06 AM
Thread OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: King Shizzo on May 20, 2011, 10:01:52 AM
  I am not afraid to admit that I have no idea what is out there.  I do not believe in the bible or organized religion however.  If there is a god, he would want us to have our own independent beliefs.  The bible is nothing more than a "How to live a civilized life for dummies" circa 2,000+ years ago.  I am going to live my life the best way I know how to.  We will all find out the truth when we die.  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: YngiweRhoads on May 20, 2011, 10:15:33 AM
 I am not afraid to admit that I have no idea what is out there.  I do not believe in the bible or organized religion however.  If there is a god, he would want us to have our own independent beliefs.  The bible is nothing more than a "How to live a civilized life for dummies" circa 2,000+ years ago.  I am going to live my life the best way I know how to.  We will all find out the truth when we die.  

Yes, this about sums it up.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Megalodon on May 20, 2011, 10:22:04 AM
Thank God Steven Hawkins was able to confirm this!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: King Shizzo on May 20, 2011, 10:29:27 AM
It has been proven that whole chapters of the bible have been removed/added to serve the agenda of the church.  Now, if the bible was directly from the mouth of god, he sure does change his mind often  ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 20, 2011, 11:04:31 AM
It has been proven that whole chapters of the bible have been removed/added to serve the agenda of the church.  Now, if the bible was directly from the mouth of god, he sure does change his mind often  ::)

God's will is apparantly to scam people.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 20, 2011, 11:14:38 AM
It has been proven that whole chapters of the bible have been removed/added to serve the agenda of the church.  Now, if the bible was directly from the mouth of god, he sure does change his mind often  ::)

Which chapters out of which book of the bible have been added or removed and who has proven this?  Now, there is debate over verses at the end of Mark that some early biblical manuscripts contain that others do not; hence, most current publications of the bible footnote this.  Most folks don't read the footnotes though.  For example, the height of Goliath has been debated, but footnoting addresses these subtle differences.  None of the debate or differences changes the idea of salvation through Christ or his resurrection. 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 20, 2011, 11:16:04 AM
 I am not afraid to admit that I have no idea what is out there.  I do not believe in the bible or organized religion however.  If there is a god, he would want us to have our own independent beliefs.  The bible is nothing more than a "How to live a civilized life for dummies" circa 2,000+ years ago.  I am going to live my life the best way I know how to.  We will all find out the truth when we die.  
most of the rules and principles used to stabilize our modern occidental societies come from the bible. The concept of good and evil in itself.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 20, 2011, 11:17:56 AM
most of the rules and principles used to stabilize our modern occidental societies come from the bible. The concept of good and evil in itself.

You are a true retard if you really believe this.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dr Dutch on May 20, 2011, 11:18:30 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 20, 2011, 11:21:18 AM
yup. when asked what was the most important thing, if we could only know one thing. jesus said there is one god and love your neighbor. and that sums it up.

 there is no reason to abstain from any pleasure that one desires, just dont hurt anybody else in the process.

a believer who takes it in the ass and take steroids.... well with the coach you both give christianism a bad name.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: King Shizzo on May 20, 2011, 11:33:25 AM
most of the rules and principles used to stabilize our modern occidental societies come from the bible. The concept of good and evil in itself.
I agree with you 100% on this.  However, it doesn't make the bible true  ;)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 20, 2011, 11:37:53 AM
I agree with you 100% on this.  However, it doesn't make the bible true  ;)

Actually, people don't want the bible to be true.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 20, 2011, 11:46:33 AM
You are a true retard if you really believe this.
sorry you re the only retard i see here.


And, I wanted to add, religion came from evolution of our brain and selected strategies of survival, from the biological development of our brain ,  prefrontal lobes, neo cortex, thoughts, considering everything that we think about or do is in itslef a strategy of survival selected by evolution over millions of years -billions if you consider human come from mammals, who come from reptilian, who come from amphibians, who come from bacterias and so on.
Like everything that exists, even thought process, religion is a construct, the selection of informations over time, informations that allow a large number of people to survive, becaue allowing others to survive might allow you to survive if they have what you need to survive but do not posess. Our ancestors killed newborns to keep fucking females. At some point they figured it endangered the fate of the whole specie, so they started protecting the newborns. They also killed or ignored the weak ones, elders, while moving from an oasis to another. But at sopme point they figured that these old people with experience, once dead because nobody helped them survive, disapeared with their knowledges, knowlegdes wich could have been useful to the whole group - its survival-. So after trials, errors, selection, they decided to keep everyone, even the old and ill ones at all cost, just in case they could be of any use in the interest of the survival of the whole group.

Birth of religion. evolution of god;

http://evolutionofgod.net/excerpts_appendix/
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: King Shizzo on May 20, 2011, 11:48:08 AM
Which chapters out of which book of the bible have been added or removed and who has proven this?  Now, there is debate over verses at the end of Mark that some early biblical manuscripts contain that others do not; hence, most current publications of the bible footnote this.  Most folks don't read the footnotes though.  For example, the height of Goliath has been debated, but footnoting addresses these subtle differences.  None of the debate or differences changes the idea of salvation through Christ or his resurrection. 
The bible has been changed over the course of 2,000+ years.  Most of it was probably done in the early middle ages to solidify the churches stance.  I know there was supposed to be among other things passages about Mary being a Prostitute etc....The Catholics removed some chapters from their bible, including the part where Jesus tells us to stop confessing our sins to the priests but to confess to Him instead. That's why that is one of the major differences between Catholocism and most other Christ-based religions.

 The Catholic Bible also includes some books (Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and I & II Maccabees) which other Bibles don't include because their authority/validity is often questioned. sense.

  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: che on May 20, 2011, 11:49:36 AM
 We will all find out the truth when we die.  
No you won't.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: King Shizzo on May 20, 2011, 11:53:13 AM
No you won't.
Sure we will. If there is something then we will know. If there is nothing, then we won't know.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: che on May 20, 2011, 11:55:18 AM
Sure we will.
::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: King Shizzo on May 20, 2011, 11:59:29 AM
::)
Is english your first language?  What have I said that doesn't make sense to you?  "IF" there is a heaven we would find out when we die right?  If it doesn't exist, then we would just cease to exist.  So what part of us finding out the truth when we die do you not understand?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: che on May 20, 2011, 12:02:09 PM
Is english your first language?  What have I said that doesn't make sense to you?  "IF" there is a heaven we would find out when we die right?  If it doesn't exist, then we would just cease to exist.  So what part of us finding out the truth when we die do you not understand?

 ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 20, 2011, 12:04:07 PM
  We will all find out the truth when we die.  

funny quote, because this is precisely an artefact of a religious belief which is stored, recorded in your brain -and has been genetically transmited from countless generations to others- and reinforced by reading things about religion etc -acquired knowledge which reinforce alrdy stored at birth knowledges, thought patterns geneticalyl inherited from those who spawned you-. Do not forget anything that exists can only be the biological, genetical, physical or psychical sum of what has spawned it. A boy is the sum of physical traits coming from his father and mothers, but also has embeded in his brain behavioral patterns inherited from both mother, father, and grandparents and so on. It is an invisible process we still cannot explain. All of this is contained in our sperm and in the eggs of women. We follow, all life long, these mostly invisible patterns which are stored in our subconscious. We didnt choose any of these patterns. This is why you have men cheating on women , why you have women cheating on men, why you have people who seem to have it all yet have ''abnormal'' behaviors which sometimes erupts out of nowhere. These are in fact patterns embeded in their brains that happen to active themselves or are activated, triggered by some events in their lives. These are in fact strategies of survival, strategies selected by the process of natural selection of evolution. As long as religion ruled occident, it allowed people not to follow these subconscious patterns, repress them and follow rugles that apply to everyone in the society, for the benefit of the group. Now we have destroyed religion, the father figure, and that we sink into materialism we re destroying human relationships and we are atomizing each others.
This is why scientists say that as an human ages, if he s a boy he becomes more and more like his father, and if it s a girl, she becomes more and more like her mother. We are just the continuation of what precedes us and we keep selecting and evolving with for sole an only purpose to survive and reproduce.

Women and men select each others based on physical and psychological traits that might allow the offpsing obtained by breeding with them to have highest odds of survival. Emotions, feelings, are a construct of the process of evolution and natural selection.


When you say we will all find out the truth when we die, you re saying something that is deeply religious.

What if when we die, we do not ''understand'' anything? People say they see their life moving like a slideshow before their eyes at an incredible speed. But that's a bout it.

another certain event is that most people when they re dying start to stop caring about themselves knowing full well they re going to die, but start caring about... their offsprings or the people they loved, often their Mother -the initial source of attachment, love, survival-.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on May 20, 2011, 12:05:02 PM
sorry you re the only retard i see here.


And, I wanted to add, religion came from evolution of our brain and selected strategies of survival, from the biological development of our brain ,  prefrontal lobes, neo cortex, thoughts, considering everything that we think about or do is in itslef a strategy of survival selected by evolution over millions of years -billions if you consider human come from mammals, who come from reptilian, who come from amphibians, who come from bacterias and so on.
Like everything that exists, even thought process, religion is a construct, the selection of informations over time, informations that allow a large number of people to survive, becaue allowing others to survive might allow you to survive if they have what you need to survive but do not posess. Our ancestors killed newborns to keep fucking females. At some point they figured it endangered the fate of the whole specie, so they started protecting the newborns. They also killed or ignored the weak ones, elders, while moving from an oasis to another. But at sopme point they figured that these old people with experience, once dead because nobody helped them survive, disapeared with their knowledges, knowlegdes wich could have been useful to the whole group - its survival-. So after trials, errors, selection, they decided to keep everyone, even the old and ill ones at all cost, just in case they could be of any use in the interest of the survival of the whole group.

Too long, didn't read it all. What I read is pure speculation.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: King Shizzo on May 20, 2011, 12:10:47 PM
As I stated earlier, I am proud to admit that I don't know what is out there.  People that claim to know either way are flat out wrong.  "Faith" is not fact!  I enjoy both sides of the arguement, knowing that none of us really know for sure.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Lord of the Roidz on May 20, 2011, 12:17:18 PM
I used to doubt any existence of an afterlife untill  I picked up a crystal clear EVP of my closest friend several months after she had died. This was not some random static or garbled voice..she clearly responded to my question and I picked it up on a tape recorder. Since I have no other plausible explanation for picking up her voice, I am fairly certain there is some sort of life after death. I'm sure no one on here will belive me, but I honestly couldn't care less.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 20, 2011, 12:18:01 PM
As I stated earlier, I am proud to admit that I don't know what is out there.  People that claim to know either way are flat out wrong.  "Faith" is not fact!  I enjoy both sides of the arguement, knowing that none of us really know for sure.
Fair enough 8)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 20, 2011, 12:20:05 PM
the only thing we ''know'' is that we are designed to do anything we can to survive, even if it means killing someone else to do so.

A thought, is the sum of previous thoughts that fought each others until a new thought has been spawned, it is called ''reasoning'' or ''reason''. Reason in itself is a strategy of survival, it s a process that automatically makes us calculate, compare, thoughts, informations mix them, delete some, keep other -there are dominant thoughts that kills other thoughts- to insure the survival of your own body / brain, in order to allow it to reproduce before dying. Once an offspring is produced, our automatic goal becomes to protect it and teach it how to defend itself until it can, too, reproduce.

Our thoughts are informations recorded by our ears, eyes, nose, skin , that are recorded in our brain depending of what, who we ve been exposed to. It means that if any of us were born in afghanistan we would believe in allah. We are just recorders which calculates constantly how to use the informations to insure our own survival even if at the expense of others. This is why we often feel better seeing someone in troubles , with lower chances of survival than us; it makes us feel good because we know we have higher chances of survival. We are designed to feel happy when our chances of survival seem good, and unhappy when they seem to decrease. We are designed to love in order to reproduce or protect ourselves, and to hate, fear, attack, to defend our own physical and psychological integrity or the one of our offsprings when we have one. We are not designed to be constantly happy. we are designed to use different strategies of survival depending of the environment and random events happening inr our life.




natural selection and the elusiveness of hapiness

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1693419/pdf/15347525.pdf
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: King Shizzo on May 20, 2011, 12:24:54 PM
I used to doubt any existence of an afterlife untill  I picked up a crystal clear EVP of my closest friend several months after she had died. This was not some random static or garbled voice..she clearly responded to my question and I picked it up on a tape recorder. Since I have no other plausible explanation for picking up her voice, I am fairly certain there is some sort of life after death. I'm sure no one on here will belive me, but I honestly couldn't care less.
very interesting...... That would certainly raise questions no doubt.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 20, 2011, 12:44:41 PM
Name one famous christian scientist who has prove his IQ is above 100. There is none. Religion is for idiots with no brains at all. Try to live with that fact.

It has been proven that whole chapters of the bible have been removed/added to serve the agenda of the church.  Now, if the bible was directly from the mouth of god, he sure does change his mind often  ::)

A lot of ignorance being displayed in this thread.  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: King Shizzo on May 20, 2011, 12:51:56 PM
A lot of ignorance being displayed in this thread.  
Do you claim to know for a fact that there is a god?  Do you think it is wrong for people to question the existence of life?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 20, 2011, 12:53:20 PM
Do you claim to know for a fact that there is a god?  Do you think it is wrong for people to question the existence of life?

What does your question have to do with my statement about these ignorant claims?

Name one famous christian scientist who has prove his IQ is above 100. There is none. Religion is for idiots with no brains at all. Try to live with that fact.

It has been proven that whole chapters of the bible have been removed/added to serve the agenda of the church.  Now, if the bible was directly from the mouth of god, he sure does change his mind often  ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 20, 2011, 12:58:35 PM
Bro, I actually love it when they are ignorant... A reaction of any sort means at least they care.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: King Shizzo on May 20, 2011, 01:17:47 PM
What does your question have to do with my statement about these ignorant claims?

The bible was supposed to be directly from the mouth of god. Why would the book not be intact exactly as it was written 2,000 years ago? Why would it even change slightly?  To even omit/re-arrange a few words/paragraphs etc..... would be blasphemy. Right?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 20, 2011, 01:23:42 PM
The bible has been changed over the course of 2,000+ years.  Most of it was probably done in the early middle ages to solidify the churches stance.  I know there was supposed to be among other things passages about Mary being a Prostitute etc....The Catholics removed some chapters from their bible, including the part where Jesus tells us to stop confessing our sins to the priests but to confess to Him instead. That's why that is one of the major differences between Catholocism and most other Christ-based religions.

 The Catholic Bible also includes some books (Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and I & II Maccabees) which other Bibles don't include because their authority/validity is often questioned. sense.

  

I will consult my apologetic sources and get that all important context around some of these issues.....so rarely am I disappointed LOL!!  I love learning about stuff like this.

5 minutes of Google later LOL:

The Apocrypha consists of a set of books written between approximately 400 B.C. and the time of Christ.  The word "apocrypha" (απόκρυφα) means "Hidden."  These books consist of 1 and 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, the Rest of Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, (also titled Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, The Letter of Jeremiah, Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, The Additions to Daniel, The Prayer of Manasseh, and 1 and 2 Maccabees.

The Protestant Church rejects the apocrypha as being inspired, as do the Jews, but in 1546 the Roman Catholic Church officially declared some of the apocryphal books to belong to the canon of scripture.  These are Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (also known as Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch.  The apocryphal books are written in Greek, not Hebrew (except for Ecclesiasticus, 1 Maccabees, a part of Judith, and Tobit), and contain some useful historical information.

Is the Apocrypha Scripture?  Protestants deny its inspiration but the Roman Catholic Church affirms it.  In order to ascertain whether it is or isn't, we need to look within its pages.

Not quoted in the New Testament
First of all, neither Jesus nor the apostles ever quoted from the Apocrypha. There are over 260 quotations of the Old Testament in the New Testament, and not one of them is from these books.  Nevertheless, a Roman Catholic might respond by saying that there are several Old Testament books that are not quoted in the New Testament, i.e., Joshua, Judges, Esther, etc.  Does this mean that they aren't inspired either?  But, these books had already been accepted into the canon by the Jews, where the Apocrypha had not.  The Jews recognized the Old Testament canon and they did not include the Apocrypha in it.  This is significant because of what Paul says:

"Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?  2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God," (Rom. 3:1-2).
Paul tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.  This means that they are the ones who understood what inspired Scriptures were and they never accepted the Apocrypha.

Jesus' references the Old Testament: from Abel to Zechariah
Jesus referenced the Jewish Old Testament canon from the beginning to the end and did not include the Apocrypha in his reference. "From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation,’" (Luke 11:51).

"The traditional Jewish canon was divided into three sections (Law, Prophets, Writings), and an unusual feature of the last section was the listing of Chronicles out of historical order, placing it after Ezra-Nehemiah and making it the last book of the canon. In light of this, the words of Jesus in Luke 11:50-51 reflect the settled character of the Jewish canon (with its peculiar order) already in his day. Christ uses the expression "from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah," which appears troublesome since Zechariah was not chronologically the last martyr mentioned in the Bible (cf. Jer. 26:20-23). However, Zechariah is the last martyr of which we read in the Old Testament according to Jewish canonical order (cf. II Chron. 24:20-22), which was apparently recognized by Jesus and his hearers."1
This means that the same Old Testament canon, according to the Jewish tradition, is arranged differently than how we have it in the Protestant Bible today.  This was the arrangement to which Jesus was referring when he referenced Abel and Zechariah, the first and last people to have their blood shed -- as listed in the Old Testament Jewish canon. Obviously, Jesus knew of the Apocrypha and was not including it in his reference.

Jesus references the Old Testament: The Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms
Catholics sometimes respond by saying that the Old Testament is referred to in three parts: the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.  It is these writings that are sometimes said to include the Apocrypha.  But this designation is not found in the Bible.  On the contrary, Jesus referenced the Old Testament and designated its three parts as the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms, not as the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.

"Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled," (Luke 24:44).
So we see that the designation offered by the Roman Catholics is not the same designation found in the Bible and their argument is invalid as their argument is incorrect.  Nevertheless, even if it did say "writings" it would not include the Apocrypha for the above-mentioned reasons.

Church Fathers
Did the Church fathers recognized the Apocrypha as being Scripture?  Roman Catholics strongly appeal to Church history but we don't find a unanimous consensus on the Apocrypha.  Jerome (340-420) who translated the Latin Vulgate which is used by the RC church, rejected the Apocrypha since he believed that the Jews recognized and established the proper canon of the Old Testament. Remember, the Christian Church built upon that recognition. Also, Josephus the famous Jewish historian of the First Century never mentioned the Apocrypha as being part of the canon either. In addition, "Early church fathers like Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, and the great Roman Catholic translator Jerome spoke out against the Apocrypha."2 So, we should not conclude that the Church fathers unanimously affirmed the Apocrypha.  They didn't.

I suppose the gist is that the exclusion is due in part to the Apocrypha being considered the unspired word of God since it wasn't part of the accepted Hebrew canon and a was a seperate Greek canon.  The Catholic church includes it, but my profession of faith is in God and I follow his inspired word.  I'm not a Catholic, but I do know that the exclusion of the Apocrypha has no bearing on salvation in Christ or his resurrection.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Ropo on May 20, 2011, 02:03:09 PM
I don't think this is the case at all and couldn't disagree more. But I think it's great that you've come up with an opinion.

Why we have this topic about Stephen Hawking and his opinion about religion? Because opinion of the known genius has frighten you guys, and whole bunch of sorry ass rednecks has come running to speak on behalf of the god and all of them want to crucify Hawking, because he does not believe in God. Well, give me one prove there is a god, one thing you can't explain by evolution theory or some other scientific theory or proven scientific fact. I know there isn't any, and never will be. They can't prove one single thing, so they say:"we don't need prove anything, all we need is our faith". Pretty easy way out, while world scientist can explain and prove just about every little incident which has happen after big bang. They can even prove there has been big bang, but Christians? NOT EVEN SINGLE THING.

You believe that man is made of dirt of the earth, but there is also skeletons of our ancestors all the way up to these days from the day when we step down from the tree and start walk up straight. You believe that god make world in seven days, but still there is calendars older than the history from the creation. You believe that god was angry and use flood to get rid of unwanted people, and Noah make ark and save two of every kind. At least here you have to smell bullshit.

When you read the bible, you have to understand it is written to be bed time story for adults, nothing more, and people has given it the status which it has these days. It is only a book, nothing more, and every religion has their own version of it.  Who decided which is right one? Would it be nice if Muslims has the only original god and holy book? You know, there is only one god, but which one it is? How about Jehovah's Witnesses? Their religion has born 1870, so it is quite young religion, but not youngest. There is thousands of religions and they have one common denominator. None of then can't prove anything.
If you look Mayas or Indians, their religion is older than Christianity, but in your point of view they must be wrong, because Christianity is only true religion, no matter if it has been made up few thousand years after Mayas and Indians start serve their gods. Christians, Muslims etc.  doesn't like scientist because scientist know that all religions are based on lies, and they can prove it.

Do you guys think at all? When child is molested, Christians say "that was Gods will". When guilty rapist manage to escape the law by his layer, Christians say, "he will pay afterlife". When he molested another child, they say "unexplored are the ways of the Lord", and when the rapist get his sentence, they say "thank God".  So why all this grief and sorrow for the innocent child? If God want to get even with the rapist, why he doesn't just nip the bastard of the face of the earth. Why there is a rapist? Why God put evil thoughts in this mans head, while he has the power to prevent all evil things among the people?

There is no god, but instead of that there is a species of ape called homo sapiens. All evil comes from that, we are animals and constantly fighting for the space for living, money, goods, pussy and food.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: wild willie on May 20, 2011, 02:15:53 PM
weren't you and jezzebelle once kids?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: wild willie on May 20, 2011, 02:17:51 PM
Buffett is a man I respect for his business accomplishments, but the guy is a well known tight wad.....and has done very little for his hometown of Omaha.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 20, 2011, 03:14:57 PM
No one considers the apocrypha part of the Bible. If thats the change anyone here is referring to then they are sadly mistaken. Over 2000 years nothing has changed in the Bible, the dead sea scrolls prove that.

Man of Steel you should read the apocrypha, good read anyway, the book of enoch and the book of Jasher, non contradict the Bible.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 20, 2011, 03:22:54 PM
No one considers the apocrypha part of the Bible. If thats the change anyone here is referring to then they are sadly mistaken. Over 2000 years nothing has changed in the Bible, the dead sea scrolls prove that.

Man of Steel you should read the apocrypha, good read anyway, the book of enoch and the book of Jasher, non contradict the Bible.

Found the wandering jew yet?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Reeves on May 20, 2011, 03:26:59 PM
yup. when asked what was the most important thing, if we could only know one thing. jesus said there is one god and love your neighbor. and that sums it up.

 there is no reason to abstain from any pleasure that one desires, just dont hurt anybody else in the process.

Heavens to Buddha!  You are one ignorant, perverted little butt-slut.  
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 20, 2011, 03:50:07 PM
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you were a bad person.   We're all broken sinners....every one of us.

No, it suggests that the only reason I don't share your personal belief is because I don't want to be held accountable for my bad actions to this god you believe in somewhere down the road. That paints a picture that you are somehow more moral and courageous because you are willing to believe in said God and face the music if need be.

Now I know you probably weren't aware that you were saying that, but that is the translation. It minimizes my personal belief or lack of belief in your belief by putting a negative spin on it rather than accept that I may just not share your belief because the evidence isn't there to support your belief in my opinion..
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 20, 2011, 03:55:46 PM
Which chapters out of which book of the bible have been added or removed and who has proven this?  Now, there is debate over verses at the end of Mark that some early biblical manuscripts contain that others do not; hence, most current publications of the bible footnote this.  Most folks don't read the footnotes though.  For example, the height of Goliath has been debated, but footnoting addresses these subtle differences.  None of the debate or differences changes the idea of salvation through Christ or his resurrection. 

Aside from Mark, if I recall correctly, back in the day, the Catholics held councils in Nicea around the 4th century. During these meetings they would vote on which manuscripts to include in what we know as the old testament today. They may have messed up..

Why would I say that? Well, they excluded one that was discovered in the dead sea scrolls. Can't recall the name of the manuscript off the top of my head, but it was also referred to in the old testament by the Arch Angel Michael.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 20, 2011, 04:02:33 PM
Actually, people don't want the bible to be true.

You are half right...
Im glad the old testament isnt true.

I can only speak for myself. I've read the old testament.. more than a couple times over the years.. not just the good parts... and if a God like that really existed... we're all fu****.  He was cranky, jealous, angry, allowed Job to be hosed to prove a point, allowed Moses and his men to rape the mindianite women and keep the virgins for themselves after killing the children.. the list goes on.... Then, if I KNEW a god existed who claimed to know the hairs on your head, would answer prayers if you had faith and asked, and this god allowed 4 yr old children to be continously raped by their uncle Bob till they committed suicide... yeah I would have a problem "worshipping" such a god.

I wish the New testament was true. Because I would love to look at the faces of all those righteous christians who when judgement day came, Jesus surprised them with the old "Get thee away from me, " because they forgot to read Matthew's parable about the goats and the sheep and while they went to church, and talked about Jesus, they never lifted a finger to help out others in need.

But thats just me..  

Ag Approved  

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Nirvana on May 20, 2011, 04:04:00 PM
I will consult my apologetic sources and get that all important context around some of these issues.....so rarely am I disappointed LOL!!  I love learning about stuff like this.

5 minutes of Google later LOL:

The Apocrypha consists of a set of books written between approximately 400 B.C. and the time of Christ.  The word "apocrypha" (απόκρυφα) means "Hidden."  These books consist of 1 and 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, the Rest of Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, (also titled Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, The Letter of Jeremiah, Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, The Additions to Daniel, The Prayer of Manasseh, and 1 and 2 Maccabees.

The Protestant Church rejects the apocrypha as being inspired, as do the Jews, but in 1546 the Roman Catholic Church officially declared some of the apocryphal books to belong to the canon of scripture.  These are Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (also known as Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch.  The apocryphal books are written in Greek, not Hebrew (except for Ecclesiasticus, 1 Maccabees, a part of Judith, and Tobit), and contain some useful historical information.

Is the Apocrypha Scripture?  Protestants deny its inspiration but the Roman Catholic Church affirms it.  In order to ascertain whether it is or isn't, we need to look within its pages.

Not quoted in the New Testament
First of all, neither Jesus nor the apostles ever quoted from the Apocrypha. There are over 260 quotations of the Old Testament in the New Testament, and not one of them is from these books.  Nevertheless, a Roman Catholic might respond by saying that there are several Old Testament books that are not quoted in the New Testament, i.e., Joshua, Judges, Esther, etc.  Does this mean that they aren't inspired either?  But, these books had already been accepted into the canon by the Jews, where the Apocrypha had not.  The Jews recognized the Old Testament canon and they did not include the Apocrypha in it.  This is significant because of what Paul says:

"Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?  2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God," (Rom. 3:1-2).
Paul tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.  This means that they are the ones who understood what inspired Scriptures were and they never accepted the Apocrypha.

Jesus' references the Old Testament: from Abel to Zechariah
Jesus referenced the Jewish Old Testament canon from the beginning to the end and did not include the Apocrypha in his reference. "From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation,’" (Luke 11:51).

"The traditional Jewish canon was divided into three sections (Law, Prophets, Writings), and an unusual feature of the last section was the listing of Chronicles out of historical order, placing it after Ezra-Nehemiah and making it the last book of the canon. In light of this, the words of Jesus in Luke 11:50-51 reflect the settled character of the Jewish canon (with its peculiar order) already in his day. Christ uses the expression "from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah," which appears troublesome since Zechariah was not chronologically the last martyr mentioned in the Bible (cf. Jer. 26:20-23). However, Zechariah is the last martyr of which we read in the Old Testament according to Jewish canonical order (cf. II Chron. 24:20-22), which was apparently recognized by Jesus and his hearers."1
This means that the same Old Testament canon, according to the Jewish tradition, is arranged differently than how we have it in the Protestant Bible today.  This was the arrangement to which Jesus was referring when he referenced Abel and Zechariah, the first and last people to have their blood shed -- as listed in the Old Testament Jewish canon. Obviously, Jesus knew of the Apocrypha and was not including it in his reference.

Jesus references the Old Testament: The Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms
Catholics sometimes respond by saying that the Old Testament is referred to in three parts: the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.  It is these writings that are sometimes said to include the Apocrypha.  But this designation is not found in the Bible.  On the contrary, Jesus referenced the Old Testament and designated its three parts as the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms, not as the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.

"Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled," (Luke 24:44).
So we see that the designation offered by the Roman Catholics is not the same designation found in the Bible and their argument is invalid as their argument is incorrect.  Nevertheless, even if it did say "writings" it would not include the Apocrypha for the above-mentioned reasons.

Church Fathers
Did the Church fathers recognized the Apocrypha as being Scripture?  Roman Catholics strongly appeal to Church history but we don't find a unanimous consensus on the Apocrypha.  Jerome (340-420) who translated the Latin Vulgate which is used by the RC church, rejected the Apocrypha since he believed that the Jews recognized and established the proper canon of the Old Testament. Remember, the Christian Church built upon that recognition. Also, Josephus the famous Jewish historian of the First Century never mentioned the Apocrypha as being part of the canon either. In addition, "Early church fathers like Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, and the great Roman Catholic translator Jerome spoke out against the Apocrypha."2 So, we should not conclude that the Church fathers unanimously affirmed the Apocrypha.  They didn't.

I suppose the gist is that the exclusion is due in part to the Apocrypha being considered the unspired word of God since it wasn't part of the accepted Hebrew canon and a was a seperate Greek canon.  The Catholic church includes it, but my profession of faith is in God and I follow his inspired word.  I'm not a Catholic, but I do know that the exclusion of the Apocrypha has no bearing on salvation in Christ or his resurrection.

Jesus must have said all this cause it's in red words
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 20, 2011, 04:13:07 PM
weren't you and jezzebelle once kids?
kids who werent loved , and as a results adults who cannot love anyone but each others and find kids ''disgusting''. There s an origin to everything. If there's smoke, there's a fire.

There just one funny little thing to be noticed here tho...

they both preferentially selected each others because they shared similar personality traits; they re both despicable , pretentious traumatized people who find confort in hugging each others while thinking everyone else is an asshole. They both selected each others because they re...the same. True anus is looking for his mother in her, and she s looking for her father in him. They re both self centered on their hobbies -whatever they are- and do not want to reproduce because kids are disgusting, and...subconsciouly...ad opt... DOGS and raise them as if they were... kids.

BUT WHY ARE THEY TOGETHER IN THE FIRST PLACE THEN CONSIDERING THEY BOTH LOOKED FOR A PARTNER ULTIMATELY TO SPAWN AN OFFSPRING? Because in reality they both want kids, thats why they re together utlimately,but they fear that if they have kids, they wont know what to teach them considering they both havent been loved by their own parents. They fear to reproduce what their parents did to them. At some point tho even if true anus stays in a state of constant immaturity and psychological underdevelopment, jezebele will want kids.


Aldo naouri says we re all here to repair what our parents  broke and that nobody can escape this reality.
We all inherit both good and bad stuff from our parents. Good inflluences, good patterns to follow mostly subconsciously, and bad ones. And it s up to us to figure what s going on and repair it. The more our parents did their job trying to better themselves, the more children will simply have to focus on growing up and listening to them. All our current troubles originate in the unsolved troubles we inherited from our genitors, this is an absolute, scientific? law. No wonder all religions came to the conclusion life always repeat itself and developed the concepts of karma, of causes and consequences. More than often, a personal life problem isnt even yours, but is just an echo from a unresolved trouble that occured in one or both of your parents life. We reproduce what we ve been exposed to when we were young, what we recorded on our brain, our harddrive... Once we re adults we trigger facing similar life events the patterns our genitors followed, subconsciously. You cannot reproduce what you didnt learn, you can only repeat what you ve learned, subconsciouly. It means that you always have to understand what your parents attempted to hide, because it s going to bite you back in your own life. From one generation, to another.

Just as an exemple, what model will arnold s. sons follow once adults, with women? Their main model of a father figure is arnold. If they dont find substitutive father to replace his influence they ll reproduce what he s done.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: no parole on May 20, 2011, 04:20:02 PM
If you are a devout christian, why the hell are you even on getbig? Not exactly a moral place. I don't think your jesus would approve.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 20, 2011, 04:23:32 PM
If you are a devout christian, why the hell are you even on getbig? Not exactly a moral place. I don't think your jesus would approve.
thats what makes me laugh with tbomz and the coach and basically all people who wear a cross on their chest while sporting tattoos , guido clothes and dbol bloat.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 20, 2011, 04:57:29 PM
If you are a devout christian, why the hell are you even on getbig? Not exactly a moral place. I don't think your jesus would approve.
thats what makes me laugh with tbomz and the coach and basically all people who wear a cross on their chest while sporting tattoos , guido clothes and dbol bloat.
Great contribution to the arguments, awesome....actually I am going to change my mind about God now cause those points you guys made are breathtaking, awesome thanks
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 20, 2011, 05:15:17 PM
Great contribution to the arguments, awesome....actually I am going to change my mind about God now cause those points you guys made are breathtaking, awesome thanks

What is your god's opinion of bodybuilding and steroid abuse?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Shockwave on May 20, 2011, 05:50:28 PM
What is your god's opinion of bodybuilding and steroid abuse?
Pretty sure god doesnt have a stand on roids, unless you lump it under vanity, or go for the laws of the nation angle.
But Im pretty sure no where does god state "Though shalt not use performance enhancing hormones, nor shalt thow endevour to increse thy muscle mass or attempt to better thy body, for if thow shalt, thow shalt be smitten by the lord for thy vanity."
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: HTexan on May 20, 2011, 07:19:10 PM
funny quote, because this is precisely an artefact of a religious belief which is stored, recorded in your brain -and has been genetically transmited from countless generations to others- and reinforced by reading things about religion etc -acquired knowledge which reinforce alrdy stored at birth knowledges, thought patterns geneticalyl inherited from those who spawned you-. Do not forget anything that exists can only be the biological, genetical, physical or psychical sum of what has spawned it. A boy is the sum of physical traits coming from his father and mothers, but also has embeded in his brain behavioral patterns inherited from both mother, father, and grandparents and so on. It is an invisible process we still cannot explain. All of this is contained in our sperm and in the eggs of women. We follow, all life long, these mostly invisible patterns which are stored in our subconscious. We didnt choose any of these patterns. This is why you have men cheating on women , why you have women cheating on men, why you have people who seem to have it all yet have ''abnormal'' behaviors which sometimes erupts out of nowhere. These are in fact patterns embeded in their brains that happen to active themselves or are activated, triggered by some events in their lives. These are in fact strategies of survival, strategies selected by the process of natural selection of evolution. As long as religion ruled occident, it allowed people not to follow these subconscious patterns, repress them and follow rugles that apply to everyone in the society, for the benefit of the group. Now we have destroyed religion, the father figure, and that we sink into materialism we re destroying human relationships and we are atomizing each others.
This is why scientists say that as an human ages, if he s a boy he becomes more and more like his father, and if it s a girl, she becomes more and more like her mother. We are just the continuation of what precedes us and we keep selecting and evolving with for sole an only purpose to survive and reproduce.

Women and men select each others based on physical and psychological traits that might allow the offpsing obtained by breeding with them to have highest odds of survival. Emotions, feelings, are a construct of the process of evolution and natural selection.


When you say we will all find out the truth when we die, you re saying something that is deeply religious.

What if when we die, we do not ''understand'' anything? People say they see their life moving like a slideshow before their eyes at an incredible speed. But that's a bout it.

another certain event is that most people when they re dying start to stop caring about themselves knowing full well they re going to die, but start caring about... their offsprings or the people they loved, often their Mother -the initial source of attachment, love, survival-.

your theory has more holes then Stephen Hawking black hole theory.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: freespirit on May 21, 2011, 02:10:35 AM
Ancient Spartans would have trown a baby hawking of a cliff.  :)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: 20inch calves on May 21, 2011, 02:53:11 AM
WELL if stephen hawkings says that then it must be true ::)

i would hate to be him when he dies and stands before god
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: NarcissisticDeity on May 21, 2011, 04:46:59 AM
WELL if stephen hawkings says that then it must be true ::)

i would hate to be him when he dies and stands before god

Well if a Bronze-age book says ( that there is a God ) that then it must be true  ::)





Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 21, 2011, 04:52:23 AM
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 21, 2011, 04:56:22 AM

your video doesn't work haha lol :P
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 21, 2011, 04:58:45 AM
your video doesn't work haha lol :P

Not mine. Oh well.... :-\
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Parker on May 21, 2011, 06:05:32 AM
   

Just as an exemple, what model will arnold s. sons follow once adults, with women? Their main model of a father figure is arnold. If they dont find substitutive father to replace his influence they ll reproduce what he s done.
The man you see is the man you'll be.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: freespirit on May 21, 2011, 08:14:30 AM
Watch this:

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 21, 2011, 09:20:50 AM
You are half right...
Im glad the old testament isnt true.

I can only speak for myself. I've read the old testament.. more than a couple times over the years.. not just the good parts... and if a God like that really existed... we're all fu****.  He was cranky, jealous, angry, allowed Job to be hosed to prove a point, allowed Moses and his men to rape the mindianite women and keep the virgins for themselves after killing the children.. the list goes on.... Then, if I KNEW a god existed who claimed to know the hairs on your head, would answer prayers if you had faith and asked, and this god allowed 4 yr old children to be continously raped by their uncle Bob till they committed suicide... yeah I would have a problem "worshipping" such a god.

I wish the New testament was true. Because I would love to look at the faces of all those righteous christians who when judgement day came, Jesus surprised them with the old "Get thee away from me, " because they forgot to read Matthew's parable about the goats and the sheep and while they went to church, and talked about Jesus, they never lifted a finger to help out others in need.

But thats just me..  

Ag Approved  



Everything you noted speaks about the flaws of man in relation to the perfection of God.  The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament....he doesn't change, nor do the flaws found in people.  The jealousy of God is well-documented in scripture so no worries there.  If I gave everything to my children, delivered them from turmoil they create themselves again and again and my children chose to give thanks and pledge themselves to an alter made of wood or gold objects they fashioned and ignore me I'd be put out too.......LOL, but that's just me.  

As far as rape of the Midianite woman I pulled this from my earmarked favorites:

Moses and the Midianites
Numbers 31:7-18
They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba - the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army - the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds - who returned from the battle.

"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Weren't the virgin women raped?
There are two parts to this objection: did God instruct or permit the soldiers to rape the women, and did the soldiers actually rape them?

It's clear that God didn't intend for the soldiers to rape the women, but rather to take them captive. The law God had given to the Israelites condemned rape, in some cases punishing it with death (Deuteronomy 22:25-27
But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
). Also, immediately following the command to spare the virgin women, the soldiers were instructed to purify themselves and their captives (31:19), and rape (or consensual intercourse) would have violated this command (Lev 15:16-18). In the rest of the chapter, the women are usually referred to as people (using the masculine adam), not women or virgins, underscoring the notion that they were seen as captives rather than sexual objects.1

It's theoretically possible that some of the soldiers raped the women, but given the circumstances it seems very unlikely. The soldiers would have known that rape was a violation of both the law and the instruction to purify themselves, as shown above; they had also seen God punish such violations with death during their travels in the desert. In fact, they had recently experienced a plague and executions resulting from their relations with Midianite women (25:1-9), as Moses reminded them. At that time, all those who had sexual relations with the Midianites were killed. It's highly implausible that the soldiers would have wanted to have anything to do with the Midianite women given this context.

So what did happen to the women (and children)? God gave the Israelites permission to marry women they took captive, but they were to treat their wives with respect: the women were to have time to mourn their families first, and were not to be mistreated (Dt 21:10-14). Those who didn't marry would have become servants, but there were rules against mistreating them as well (Ex 21:26-27, Dt 23:15-16). See the article on slavery laws for more on the treatment of female slaves.


Weren't some of the women and children sacrificed (Num 31:25-41)?

No - they probably became servants of the priests. This passage is dealt with in the article on human sacrifice.


Why were the men and non-virgin women killed?

The Midianites conspired with the Moabites to curse Israel (Num 22:1-7). When the curse was turned into a blessing instead (24:10-11), the Moabite and Midianite woman agreed to seduce the Israelite men and in doing so entice them to serve their idols (25:1-9, 31:15-16, Rev 2:14). The Israelites who fell prey to this and engaged in idolatry were also held responsible, and were executed (25:4-5). Virgin women and young girls were obviously not participants in this, so they were spared.


Why was Balaam killed - didn't he bless Israel?

Balaam did follow God's instructions and blessed Israel instead of cursing it as Balak, the Moabite king, wanted him to (Num 24:10-11 - see ch. 22-24 for the whole story). However, following God was not habitual for Balaam: he often practiced sorcery (24:1) and in fact was his idea to bring destruction on Israel by having the women lure the Israelites into sexual immorality and idolatry (31:15-16, Rev 2:14).


What about the Moabites?

The Moabites were a special case - they were descendents of Lot (Gen 19:36-37), and were to remain in the land God had provided for them (Dt 2:9). However, they were excluded from the Israelite community as a result of their actions (Dt 23:3-6).
 
It's true that people break God's law time and time again in the Old Testament, but that doesn't take away from salvation in Christ, his love for us or his glorious resurrection.


Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: no parole on May 21, 2011, 04:18:12 PM
Great contribution to the arguments, awesome....actually I am going to change my mind about God now cause those points you guys made are breathtaking, awesome thanks

You can't answer my question, can you?

This suggests you probably don't take it so seriously, your religious stance that is. After all, the more serious and literal you take religion, the more of a nutjob you act and appear to society. So, consider yourself not so much of a victim to all these man made lies.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 21, 2011, 04:26:41 PM
You can't answer my question, can you?

This suggests you probably don't take it so seriously, your religious stance that is. After all, the more serious and literal you take religion, the more of a nutjob you act and appear to society. So, consider yourself not so much of a victim to all these man made lies.
Simply not true since more then 50% of the human population believe in a creator, actually way more. so obviously I would only look like a nut job to a small fraction of society and you would be the weird one in the minority, do math braniac.

What was your question again?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Dipadidu on May 21, 2011, 04:41:49 PM
Oh boy, so many posts about the existence of god?

Any kids, mentally retarded or old housewives here??

Santa Claus don't exist either...


Get fucking rid of your stupid religions!
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: no parole on May 21, 2011, 04:43:28 PM
Simply not true since more then 50% of the human population believe in a creator, actually way more. so obviously I would only look like a nut job to a small fraction of society and you would be the weird one in the minority, do math braniac.

What was your question again?

You already answered my question. Just believing in a creator is about as easy and generic as it gets. Anybody can do that and live a hypocritical lifestyle. That is the majority, my friend - people who don't take it so seriously and go about it with a grain of ignorance, such as yourself. I am talking about, as an example, taking the Bible literally word for word and living according to those words. Look at the doomsday people. I think most would call them nuts. You may not agree with their philosophies, but that is one such of an example of a literal pursuit I am talking about.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 21, 2011, 05:24:33 PM
You already answered my question. Just believing in a creator is about as easy and generic as it gets. Anybody can do that and live a hypocritical lifestyle. That is the majority, my friend - people who don't take it so seriously and go about it with a grain of ignorance, such as yourself. I am talking about, as an example, taking the Bible literally word for word and living according to those words. Look at the doomsday people. I think most would call them nuts. You may not agree with their philosophies, but that is one such of an example of a literal pursuit I am talking about.


Bro your post has no info in it. Nothing scientific, nothing knowledgeable or no statistics just a dumb opinion that us Christians here 24-7 everyday of our lives. What's new
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 21, 2011, 05:55:18 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven

Sunday 15 May 2011 22.00 BST

I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.



Funny that Stephen Hawking would use this analogy!  It completely contradicts his point.

Computer hardware is like the human physical body, while computer software is like the human soul/mind.

Computer hardware fails and stops working, but its software lives on.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: LATS on May 21, 2011, 08:50:22 PM
i can tell  ya.. whether you believe in god or a afterlife.. when the moment of truth comes.. and you will be faced with the possibility of shutting yours and you cease to exist.. literally cease to exist.. no memories.. no meaning.. just gone.. you will be praying for a god and praying for a afterlife.. not saying what happens one way or another.. but you can be a die hard atheist all you want.. you wont be come with looking death in the face..
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: dogbowl on May 21, 2011, 09:31:53 PM
i can tell  ya.. whether you believe in god or a afterlife.. when the moment of truth comes.. and you will be faced with the possibility of shutting yours and you cease to exist.. literally cease to exist.. no memories.. no meaning.. just gone.. you will be praying for a god and praying for a afterlife.. not saying what happens one way or another.. but you can be a die hard atheist all you want.. you wont be come with looking death in the face..

This is the "no atheists in foxholes" argument.  But not everyone thinks about death the same way that you do. 

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: LATS on May 21, 2011, 10:12:49 PM
LOL.. how else can ya think of it based on atheists beliefs.. i am not saying that are wrong.. but based on their thinking when its over you cease to exist.. no refunds no do overs.. gone..
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: dogbowl on May 21, 2011, 11:50:32 PM
LOL.. how else can ya think of it based on atheists beliefs.. i am not saying that are wrong.. but based on their thinking when its over you cease to exist.. no refunds no do overs.. gone..

Yes, I think it's no refunds, no do overs.  But I don't think this way because that's how I want it to be, but because I see no reason to think any other way, apart from wishful thinking.   
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: dogbowl on May 22, 2011, 12:01:50 AM

Funny that Stephen Hawking would use this analogy!  It completely contradicts his point.

Computer hardware is like the human physical body, while computer software is like the human soul/mind.

Computer hardware fails and stops working, but its software lives on.

It works as analogy if the mind is a product of the brain.  The brain dies, we die. 

How does the mind survive without a body?  Do you believe it does?  If so, why should i also believe it ...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 22, 2011, 06:57:31 AM
Jesus must have said all this cause it's in red words

AHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!  I understand this was meant as a mild insult, but it was funny.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Natural Man on May 22, 2011, 07:00:42 AM
your theory has more holes then Stephen Hawking black hole theory.
it's not my theory, it's what i m learning thru my studies in anthropology , theology, sociology and psychology mainly.

I gave some links about my sources, just read about it. 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: HTexan on May 22, 2011, 10:13:12 AM
it's not my theory, it's what i m learning thru my studies in anthropology , theology, sociology and psychology mainly.

I gave some links about my sources, just read about it. 
so you are just regurgitating what you learn in class this week?  ::) What a fucking simple minded loser. ::) ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 23, 2011, 05:08:38 AM
It works as analogy if the mind is a product of the brain.  The brain dies, we die.  

How does the mind survive without a body?  Do you believe it does?  If so, why should i also believe it ...

If the mind is a product of the brain?  Stephen Hawking's analogy still fails and contradicts his point.  

The brain of a computer is the Central Processing Unit(CPU).  Software is the mind/soul of a computer, and it is not a product of the CPU.  

The CPU is physical.  Software is not physical.  The CPU fails and stops working eventually, but the software lives on.  

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: DK II on May 23, 2011, 07:00:01 AM
If the mind is a product of the brain?  Stephen Hawking's analogy still fails and contradicts his point.  

The brain of a computer is the Central Processing Unit(CPU).  Software is the mind/soul of a computer, and it is not a product of the CPU.  

The CPU is physical.  Software is not physical.  The CPU fails and stops working eventually, but the software lives on.  



Yep, you can transfer the software to another PC and run it there, hardly practicable with your mind.  ;D ;D ;D


To cut this short, if i was in the shit Stephen Hawkings is through, i would not believe in god as well.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on May 23, 2011, 07:13:17 AM
Yep, you can transfer the software to another PC and run it there, hardly practicable with your mind.  ;D ;D ;D


To cut this short, if i was in the shit Stephen Hawkings is through, i would not believe in god as well.

I'm not the one who used the computer analogy.  Stephen Hawkings is the one who used it to make his point.  I'm the one saying it is not a good analogy, and it contradicts his point.     :)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: DK II on May 23, 2011, 07:17:02 AM
I'm not the one who used the computer analogy.  Stephen Hawkings is the one who used it to make his point.  I'm the one saying it is not a good analogy, and it contradicts his point.     :)

Yes, i got that.

I am actually on your side here.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 23, 2011, 08:34:58 AM
i can tell  ya.. whether you believe in god or a afterlife.. when the moment of truth comes.. and you will be faced with the possibility of shutting yours and you cease to exist.. literally cease to exist.. no memories.. no meaning.. just gone.. you will be praying for a god and praying for a afterlife.. not saying what happens one way or another.. but you can be a die hard atheist all you want.. you wont be come with looking death in the face..

The truth is many people die every day who are atheist and remain atheist until their last breath. Have you considered that an "eternal" life may not be all it's cracked up to be? 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 23, 2011, 08:45:09 AM
Everything you noted speaks about the flaws of man in relation to the perfection of God.  The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament....he doesn't change, nor do the flaws found in people.  The jealousy of God is well-documented in scripture so no worries there.  If I gave everything to my children, delivered them from turmoil they create themselves again and again and my children chose to give thanks and pledge themselves to an alter made of wood or gold objects they fashioned and ignore me I'd be put out too.......LOL, but that's just me.  

As far as rape of the Midianite woman I pulled this from my earmarked favorites:

Moses and the Midianites
Numbers 31:7-18
They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba - the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army - the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds - who returned from the battle.

"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Weren't the virgin women raped?
There are two parts to this objection: did God instruct or permit the soldiers to rape the women, and did the soldiers actually rape them?

It's clear that God didn't intend for the soldiers to rape the women, but rather to take them captive. The law God had given to the Israelites condemned rape, in some cases punishing it with death (Deuteronomy 22:25-27
But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
). Also, immediately following the command to spare the virgin women, the soldiers were instructed to purify themselves and their captives (31:19), and rape (or consensual intercourse) would have violated this command (Lev 15:16-18). In the rest of the chapter, the women are usually referred to as people (using the masculine adam), not women or virgins, underscoring the notion that they were seen as captives rather than sexual objects.1

It's theoretically possible that some of the soldiers raped the women, but given the circumstances it seems very unlikely. The soldiers would have known that rape was a violation of both the law and the instruction to purify themselves, as shown above; they had also seen God punish such violations with death during their travels in the desert. In fact, they had recently experienced a plague and executions resulting from their relations with Midianite women (25:1-9), as Moses reminded them. At that time, all those who had sexual relations with the Midianites were killed. It's highly implausible that the soldiers would have wanted to have anything to do with the Midianite women given this context.

So what did happen to the women (and children)? God gave the Israelites permission to marry women they took captive, but they were to treat their wives with respect: the women were to have time to mourn their families first, and were not to be mistreated (Dt 21:10-14). Those who didn't marry would have become servants, but there were rules against mistreating them as well (Ex 21:26-27, Dt 23:15-16). See the article on slavery laws for more on the treatment of female slaves.


Weren't some of the women and children sacrificed (Num 31:25-41)?

No - they probably became servants of the priests. This passage is dealt with in the article on human sacrifice.


Why were the men and non-virgin women killed?

The Midianites conspired with the Moabites to curse Israel (Num 22:1-7). When the curse was turned into a blessing instead (24:10-11), the Moabite and Midianite woman agreed to seduce the Israelite men and in doing so entice them to serve their idols (25:1-9, 31:15-16, Rev 2:14). The Israelites who fell prey to this and engaged in idolatry were also held responsible, and were executed (25:4-5). Virgin women and young girls were obviously not participants in this, so they were spared.


Why was Balaam killed - didn't he bless Israel?

Balaam did follow God's instructions and blessed Israel instead of cursing it as Balak, the Moabite king, wanted him to (Num 24:10-11 - see ch. 22-24 for the whole story). However, following God was not habitual for Balaam: he often practiced sorcery (24:1) and in fact was his idea to bring destruction on Israel by having the women lure the Israelites into sexual immorality and idolatry (31:15-16, Rev 2:14).


What about the Moabites?

The Moabites were a special case - they were descendents of Lot (Gen 19:36-37), and were to remain in the land God had provided for them (Dt 2:9). However, they were excluded from the Israelite community as a result of their actions (Dt 23:3-6).
 
It's true that people break God's law time and time again in the Old Testament, but that doesn't take away from salvation in Christ, his love for us or his glorious resurrection.




Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."  

To argue any justification for this kind of killing is a prime example of the typical Christians stance on the biblical god.

I could describe the most atrocious act upon man you can imagine, and say another human committed it upon someone and without exception Christians would easily recognize and proclaim it evil and wrong. But if I gave the same circumstances and say God did it, they would suspend reason and common sense and proclaim it is good because ....well because God did it. Cut a pregnant woman open and remove the fetus with a sword.. horrible.. but God commanded it? Oh, its ok. Kill women and children captives and keep the virgins for yourselves? Dastardly... oh Moses a representative of God said it? No problem..

This automatic justification of atrocious actions simply because of who did it reminds me of how the Nazi's may have felt about Hitlers orders... as atrocious as they were, well, it's Hitler so it must be right... IN reality, the old testament God made Hitler look like Ghandi

 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 23, 2011, 04:43:37 PM
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."  

To argue any justification for this kind of killing is a prime example of the typical Christians stance on the biblical god.

I could describe the most atrocious act upon man you can imagine, and say another human committed it upon someone and without exception Christians would easily recognize and proclaim it evil and wrong. But if I gave the same circumstances and say God did it, they would suspend reason and common sense and proclaim it is good because ....well because God did it. Cut a pregnant woman open and remove the fetus with a sword.. horrible.. but God commanded it? Oh, its ok. Kill women and children captives and keep the virgins for yourselves? Dastardly... oh Moses a representative of God said it? No problem..

This automatic justification of atrocious actions simply because of who did it reminds me of how the Nazi's may have felt about Hitlers orders... as atrocious as they were, well, it's Hitler so it must be right... IN reality, the old testament God made Hitler look like Ghandi

 


AAHAHAAHAHAH!!!  So Christians are like Nazis now......jumping back to my days in the Getbig Squad, but "oh brother".
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 23, 2011, 05:55:14 PM
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."  

To argue any justification for this kind of killing is a prime example of the typical Christians stance on the biblical god. I could describe the most atrocious act upon man you can imagine, and say another human committed it upon someone and without exception Christians would easily recognize and proclaim it evil and wrong. But if I gave the same circumstances and say God did it, they would suspend reason and common sense and proclaim it is good because ....well because God did it. Cut a pregnant woman open and remove the fetus with a sword.. horrible.. but God commanded it? Oh, its ok. Kill women and children captives and keep the virgins for yourselves? Dastardly... oh Moses a representative of God said it? No problem..

This automatic justification of atrocious actions simply because of who did it reminds me of how the Nazi's may have felt about Hitlers orders... as atrocious as they were, well, it's Hitler so it must be right... IN reality, the old testament God made Hitler look like Ghandi

 

These were some disturbing times in the world, darker then you could possibly imagine, This era expected the annihilation of tribes and nations. It was the norm among war, every nation did it at the beginning including your ancestors. If you didn't abide by this then the few you left alive would strengthen and grow in a few generations and come back to slaughter you. You really have no choice, considering the era, to kill woman and children. Same with the law a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye. without this law, witch the whole world followed by the way, there would be chaos and mayhem everywhere.... We are talking about people that would sacrifice their own sons and daughter on a regular basis to their statue god. as the times change, then you must change with them.
   If you've have done any type of historical research on this time period you would know this is the way the world tuned, remember If one ember is left alight the fire can ignite
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 24, 2011, 06:48:35 AM
These were some disturbing times in the world, darker then you could possibly imagine, This era expected the annihilation of tribes and nations. It was the norm among war, every nation did it at the beginning including your ancestors. If you didn't abide by this then the few you left alive would strengthen and grow in a few generations and come back to slaughter you. You really have no choice, considering the era, to kill woman and children. Same with the law a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye. without this law, witch the whole world followed by the way, there would be chaos and mayhem everywhere.... We are talking about people that would sacrifice their own sons and daughter on a regular basis to their statue god. as the times change, then you must change with them.
   If you've have done any type of historical research on this time period you would know this is the way the world tuned, remember If one ember is left alight the fire can ignite

Thank you for making my point
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 24, 2011, 06:51:41 AM
AAHAHAAHAHAH!!!  So Christians are like Nazis now......jumping back to my days in the Getbig Squad, but "oh brother".

Please don't discount my message by focusing on a non issue. Christians are not like Nazis. However Christians allow God to commit any atrocity in the bible, and there are many, and call it good, or accept it because it's God who did it. It compares to why some otherwise good people sat back and allowed atrocities to occur to the Jews.. they had misguided loyalty to a mad man. 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 24, 2011, 12:39:04 PM
Please don't discount my message by focusing on a non issue. Christians are not like Nazis. However Christians allow God to commit any atrocity in the bible, and there are many, and call it good, or accept it because it's God who did it. It compares to why some otherwise good people sat back and allowed atrocities to occur to the Jews.. they had misguided loyalty to a mad man. 

Fair enough.  When you remove God from the equation you take away a great deal of the context of the situation.  You're left with two groups of people waging war and committing all kinds of atrocities against one another.  If you add God back into the equation and then provide the all important context to the situation things become clearer.  The Midianites were a nomadic band of people that attacked and attacked and attacked the Israelites season after season leaving them in a state of utter desperation.  At one point the Midianites were described as a swarm of locusts that devoured everything in their path.  They took everything from the Israelites and left them nothing.  God will test his people and allow bad things to happen so that we may return to him, draw closer to him and remember that he is in control.  God chose the people of Israel to become his messengers for the world....his beacon of light.  Once the Israelites again put their trust in God he allowed the Midianites to be overcome.  Much like he did against the Amalekites....another pagan horde the Israelites were forced to encounter.  These were not innocent bands of people that the Israelites had to fight.  As Christians we understand the love of God and the work he's done in each of us.  We all take for granted how serious God treats our sin.  Our sins are worthy of death; hence the Israelites provided animals sacrifices to God as a blood atonement for that sin.  That's how serious sin is in the eyes of God.  Thankfully we have the new convenant in the form of Jesus Christ that shed his own blood for all our sins.  It's only through his blood, the blood of divine sacrifice, the only lamb worthy to be slain that we are free from the clutches of death.  I've told others before if you don't like God's law or God's methods I suggest you take it up with God and I mean that in the best sense.  God knows the contents of your heart so seek him honestly and earnestly and he will reveal himself to you....it's changed my life.  I still have a lot to learn in my walk with Christ, but I'm so thankful that God now directs my path.  For most, everything I've just said is nonsense, Christian-gibberish if you will.  Most atrocities are completely removed from their context and the big picture never addressed.  Others will say, "Why did the children of the Midianites or the Amalekites have to die?  Weren't they innocent?  How can a loving God allow that to happen?"  None are more precious to Christ than the children.  It is better to have a milestone tied to your neck and for you to be dropped into the sea than to lead the children into sin.  God has allowed children of the pagan peoples to be killed, but they'll spend an eternity with Christ in paradise and not be subject to the faults of those generations before them who will spend an eternity separated from God.  If you ignore Christ then all you see are dead children and battered people.  Add God into the equation and you see love, mercy and purpose.  Again, others will see that as nonsense and that's ok.  My words may at best only plant a tiny seed, while others may help water that seed at a later date; still, only God can make it grow.  That's my only hope, that others that don't know Christ can come to belief and experience his love.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 24, 2011, 12:51:01 PM
Thank you for making my point
Actually I'll even add to it.... ;) There is a lady in the Bible the took her child and eat him >:(
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 24, 2011, 02:07:20 PM
Among other things, Man of Steel wrote..

"God has allowed children of the pagan peoples to be killed, but they'll spend an eternity with Christ in paradise and not be subject to the faults of those generations before them who will spend an eternity separated from God. "

Why wouldn't god use this great logic today to kill all the children he knows will not accept Jesus and therefore save them from hell and cause them to spend eternity with him?

The logic is the same...

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 25, 2011, 02:53:13 PM
Among other things, Man of Steel wrote..

"God has allowed children of the pagan peoples to be killed, but they'll spend an eternity with Christ in paradise and not be subject to the faults of those generations before them who will spend an eternity separated from God. "

Why wouldn't god use this great logic today to kill all the children he knows will not accept Jesus and therefore save them from hell and cause them to spend eternity with him?

The logic is the same...



I get you, I really do.  These pagan groups such as the Amalakites had hundreds of years to repent and turn to God, but they persisted in their evil ways and ignored God.  Sure today we have small sects of folks that may inflict harm upon a mass population (the Nazis for example), but we're talking about a massive population dedicated to evil and perverse, pagan rituals....different circumstances.  We can look at the Chinese today and say the majority of this nation can't stand Christianity, but the Chinese are nothing like the Amalakites or the Midianites.  They aren't engaging in the deviant perversions and human sacrifice like the pagan populations of the OT.   God stepped in and allowed these pagan peoples to be destroyed and in turn brought the population of children into eternity with him.  Generation after generation after generation were allowed to pervert the younger generation before them and turn them from God which condemned them to an eternity without God when they died.    So sure, God could just wipe out all the children before they become accountable for their actions and bring them into eternity with him, but that's not his will for us.  God wants us to seek him and desire a relationship with him.  He wants to be chosen by us.  If he dictates the terms of all situations what becomes of our free will?  What's the point of Christ, the cross, salvation, repentance or our very lives?  Again, if you remove Christ from the equation the remainder is meaningless, but when included you find purpose, choice, love, grace, mercy and salvation.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: James28 on May 27, 2011, 05:24:31 AM
So to sum up, there is NO proof of a God's existence. Never has been. EVER. The only reason you believe in God is by indoctrination and dogma. Had you been born elsewhere, you'd have believed in Buddha or Allah. Had you been born 500 years ago, Thor, Loki. Even further back, Raj, Osiris or the Sun. Hell, in ancient Egypt they prayed to Bastet, the cat god!! Or in France, Rudiobus, the horse God. 500 years into the future, who knows what fantasies will appear.

There is as much proof and theory for god's existence that there is for the Talking Potato God. You only champion this because of what your parents or teachers told you. Fucking hell, think about it. A magical invisible creature that had no beginning spoke some words and everything appeared? And you lot call yourself intelligent. You ask science to answer what's difficult to answer and when it can't, you run back to your religion fantasy as 'proof'. There is NO proof that a god exists. NONE. Science done a lot of us, it gave us EVERYTHING you see around you. What did your God give you? Death, war, genocide. Look at the fucking rednecks in middle America. They're off their fucking heads on religion. You're an outcast if you don't buy into this religion BS.

Science will one day answer everything. Not in this generation or the next, but it will give all the answers. Well, I suppose the stupidly ignorant will still cling to their dusty BS black books, even as the world moves on and beyond this childish and parasitic movement that is called religion. 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 27, 2011, 05:56:35 AM
well hell....that about says it all....

-end of thread-
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 27, 2011, 10:53:37 AM
well hell....that about says it all....

-end of thread-

Not just yet.

So to sum up, there is NO proof of a God's existence. Never has been. EVER. The only reason you believe in God is by indoctrination and dogma. Had you been born elsewhere, you'd have believed in Buddha or Allah. Had you been born 500 years ago, Thor, Loki. Even further back, Raj, Osiris or the Sun. Hell, in ancient Egypt they prayed to Bastet, the cat god!! Or in France, Rudiobus, the horse God. 500 years into the future, who knows what fantasies will appear.

There is as much proof and theory for god's existence that there is for the Talking Potato God. You only champion this because of what your parents or teachers told you. Fucking hell, think about it. A magical invisible creature that had no beginning spoke some words and everything appeared? And you lot call yourself intelligent. You ask science to answer what's difficult to answer and when it can't, you run back to your religion fantasy as 'proof'. There is NO proof that a god exists. NONE. Science done a lot of us, it gave us EVERYTHING you see around you. What did your God give you? Death, war, genocide. Look at the fucking rednecks in middle America. They're off their fucking heads on religion. You're an outcast if you don't buy into this religion BS.

Science will one day answer everything. Not in this generation or the next, but it will give all the answers. Well, I suppose the stupidly ignorant will still cling to their dusty BS black books, even as the world moves on and beyond this childish and parasitic movement that is called religion.  

I believe in God for a number of reasons.  The primary reason I belief today is because of the wonderful works he's performed in my heart and in my life.  I have no doubt about his existence or who he is.  And thank the Lord I was raised in a Christian home in the United States...what an absolute blessing!  As believers we must seek out those less fortunate than us and share with them the message of salvation in Christ. As far as indoctrination and forced-fed dogma are concerned, the current population of teenagers are fleeing the Christian faith in droves despite the beliefs their Christian parents have tried to instill.  Our age of instant communication and data sharing is both wonderful and harmful.  Young kids and even some naive, ignorant adults are subject to the verbal onslaught of flawed communication online.  Children are leaving the church in mass numbers and it's up to our generation and our parent's generation to become better informed Christians.  Children no longer have to spend hours in a library pouring over stacks of books (which they wouldn't anyways LOL....they're kids!).  They can quickly Google any number of topics and fashion a flawed perspective based on the rantings of numerous educated fools.

Are far as proof is concerned the historicity of the bible simply is not in question any longer.  We have archeological proof to validate the claims of the bible.  We have the close proximity between Christ's resurrection and the New Testament writings, the vast number of NT manuscripts,  the eyewitness accounts after his resurrection, the transformation of Saul of Tarsus to confirm his existance.  This doesn't even consider the scientific validation.  We also have the ancient writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger that validate Christ's life.  In fact, we have less proof for the existance of someone like Alexander the Great than we do Jesus Christ.  Within the fields of biochemistry and microbiology we are continually finding increased complexity and imposible elegance in the design of human dna....the source of which is causing more and more scientists to believe in a creator.  The lead geneticist (Francis Collins) in the Human Genome project is a devout Christian and an expert in his field.  Even he indicated that 40% of the scientists in his field are now believers.   We find the same elegance and complexity in the design of the universe and a growing populations of physicists who continually return to the likelihood of an intelligent design singularity in the cosmos which can't be denied unless the realm of metaphysics is explored.  Multiverses, other dimensions, time and space fluctuations have been used to justify the removal of the intelligent design singularity, but thus far even our own Stephen Hawking can't dismiss it without consulting a metaphysical approach.  I find the metaphysical debate kinda funny in that the supernatural is used to refute the supernatural (in a sense).  Philosophy has all but given up on reasoning away the existance of God as our own moral code has been embedded into who we are.  We see a man drowning, we can't swim ourselves and think, "I've got to jump in and save that man."  This flies in the face our Darwinian, "only the strong will survive" mentality that would leave the man to drown without a bit of consideration for his well being.  So where did our intrinsic moral fiber originate?  The very concept of right and wrong that we all recognize and simply can't deny leaves the Godless philosphies flat....his presence is inherent in all of us whether we recognize his existance or not.  Step over to a scientific look, even carbon dating has been reviewed again and again and found that the billion year old universe is actually several thousands of years old given that the way we originally measured radioactive decay rates in carbon was flawed.  Correct the math and billions become thousands.  Within cellular biology with see the sheer complexity of cellular engines that power differing aspects of the cell who's probability for random chance ocurrance is near impossible.  Also the elegance of the design lends intself only to an intelligent designer.   In terms of Geology we see evidence of a worldwide flood.  Science, mathematics and history all help validate the existance of God not refute it.  

Now the mystery Gods of the Mediterrenean world have long since been debunked.  Mithra, Dionysis, Osiris, Horus, etc.....have all been debunked decades and decades ago.  The primary debunking (prior to any comparisons being made) are found in the 2nd century origination of these God myths.... the life of Christ and Christianity arose in the first century. The only exceptions to this debunking of timing are in reference to Horus and Osiris.  Further the sun God Horus has no ties or real comparisons to Jesus Christ.....just study Horus and Osiris and you'll find this true.  Everyone saw Religulous and the new generation of uninformed viewers feel prey to old an arguement that was debunked long before they were alive.  So why did the producers present the movie?  Oh I don't know, they hate Christians and love money and know the majority of the audience would be ignorant on these topics.  I'm no scientist, historian, etc....I'm just trying to learn like everyone else.

As C.S. Lewis so eloquently put it, "In the end there will be only two types of people.  Those that look at God and say 'thy will be done' and those that God looks at and says, 'Thy will be done'."   My hope and prayer is that the love of God be made evident in the lives of believers and nonbelievers alike.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: no parole on May 29, 2011, 12:23:47 PM
So to sum up, there is NO proof of a God's existence. Never has been. EVER. The only reason you believe in God is by indoctrination and dogma. Had you been born elsewhere, you'd have believed in Buddha or Allah. Had you been born 500 years ago, Thor, Loki. Even further back, Raj, Osiris or the Sun. Hell, in ancient Egypt they prayed to Bastet, the cat god!! Or in France, Rudiobus, the horse God. 500 years into the future, who knows what fantasies will appear.

exactly.



I believe in God for a number of reasons.  The primary reason I belief today is because of the wonderful works he's performed in my heart and in my life.  I have no doubt about his existence or who he is.  And thank the Lord I was raised in a Christian home in the United States...what an absolute blessing!  As believers we must seek out those less fortunate than us and share with them the message of salvation in Christ.

And what about the testimonials of Jews or Muslims about the wonderful works their gods have done in their lives? Or others? They have it wrong and you have it right. Do you have any clue how devout and certain other people are on their own beliefs outside of your own, that even contradict yours? It's arrogant and delusional behavior on all of you.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 29, 2011, 01:48:18 PM
exactly.


And what about the testimonials of Jews or Muslims about the wonderful works their gods have done in their lives? Or others? They have it wrong and you have it right. Do you have any clue how devout and certain other people are on their own beliefs outside of your own, that even contradict yours? It's arrogant and delusional behavior on all of you.


Actually Jews, Muslims, and christian have the same character as there God with the major prophets being Moses, Samuel, Elijah, and Jeremiah. The difference is in more detailed points, so what you should have said is Buddhism and Hinduism as examples, so that no one here would know that you haven't really looked into any of these teachings, let alone read from any of their Scriptures respectively ;), hence not making you a credible contributor to the debates not having first hand knowledge from both sides ;D

Having said that....I do understand your point 8)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: no parole on May 29, 2011, 02:02:48 PM
The difference is in more detailed points

Christianity states if you don't believe and follow Jesus, you go to hell.  All technicalities. ::)
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 29, 2011, 02:04:55 PM
Christianity states if you don't believe and follow Jesus, you go to hell.  All technicalities. ::)
So you have read the Bible :D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: no parole on May 29, 2011, 02:16:10 PM
So you have read the Bible :D

Salvation differs between the major religions, I should of worded it differently. I'm not going to argue your trite point. And furthermore, what I said still holds true because it's only in Christianity where Jesus is considered to be God himself in human form, so we are talking about different gods here.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Skeletor on May 29, 2011, 02:49:13 PM
In fact, we have less proof for the existance of someone like Alexander the Great than we do Jesus Christ.  

 :o
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 29, 2011, 04:22:04 PM
Salvation differs between the major religions, I should of worded it differently. I'm not going to argue your trite point. And furthermore, what I said still holds true because it's only in Christianity where Jesus is considered to be God himself in human form, so we are talking about different gods here.
relax i was just fooling about
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 29, 2011, 10:45:38 PM
exactly.


And what about the testimonials of Jews or Muslims about the wonderful works their gods have done in their lives? Or others? They have it wrong and you have it right. Do you have any clue how devout and certain other people are on their own beliefs outside of your own, that even contradict yours? It's arrogant and delusional behavior on all of you.



That's my primary reason for believing, but as I stated previously it's not my only reason.  The conversion of others is not that simple either (in most cases).  My testimony alone is not sufficient, it's just my personal relationship and experience with the God that I'm sharing....I only have one personal testimony to share so I share it.  If that's somehow deemed as arrogance I'm a bit helpless to do anything about that other than to state that arrogance has no place in my walk with Christ or my intent when sharing with others.  Further, the combination of definite historical, architectural and scientific proof coupled with empirical evidence don't often lend themselves to a state of utter delusion.

Now, the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament.  Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe in a monotheistic God, but Jews and Muslims don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ as the son of God.  Further, Jews and Muslims are both passionate about their relationships with God, but they have one very distinct difference with Christians.....we believe and confirm the resurrected Christ and the gift of salvation this has provided.  A Christian's faith is firmly based in the resurrected, divine son of God in Jesus Christ; unfortunately, neither Jews or Muslims have the confirmation of a resurrected savior validated via eye witness testimony and the associated fulfillment of ancient prophecy (actually the Jews do they just don't belief it despite all evidence to the contrary).  Also, the documented eyewitness account of the resurrected Christ occurred within mere decades of it's occurance....this situation is limited to only Christianity.  The Muslim prophet Mohammed isn't given divine status along with Allah; in addition, Mohammed founded the Islamic belief system at a date much later than the founding of Christianity.  In fact, the Christian bible was already fully adopted and accepted canon while Mohammed was still alive.  Another tremendous difference is that the Islamic god Allah is far removed and impersonal from his followers.....a bit ironic given this equivalent state of passion you mentioned.  That said, the entire nature of relationship between Allah and Muslim and Christ and Christian is a completely different situation....one impersonal and one personal.  Sure, many Muslims belief in the transformative power of Allah, but as Christians we need to accept our Jewish and Islamic brothers and sisters and help them understand the divine trinity of God, the fulfillment of prophecy in Christ, the confirmed resurrection of Christ and the glorious salvation found in Christ Jesus.

So in summary, I do have some clue, but I have a lot to learn and hopefully God grants me a lot of life to continue learning it.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Cliff Clavin on May 29, 2011, 11:36:26 PM
dont believe everything that u read...
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 30, 2011, 06:51:33 AM


Are far as proof is concerned the historicity of the bible simply is not in question any longer.  We have archeological proof to validate the claims of the bible.  (where is the archeological proof of Noahs ark? That dead saints rose from their graves and walked the streets? That the nile turned to blood? that all the first born were slain to kill the baby messiah? that there were giants? That men lived to be 900 yrs old?We have the close proximity between Christ's resurrection and the New Testament writings, No, you don't. There earliest possible writings are at least 30 yrs from Jesus' alleged crucifiction. 30 yrs is about a generation in those days. Can you imagine how stories were embilished in a 30 year time span? You can observe the embelishments for yourself when you read Matthews versions of events in comparison with the others.  the vast number of NT manuscripts,  the eyewitness accounts after his resurrection, the transformation of Saul of Tarsus to confirm his existance.How does this story confirm his existance exactly?  This doesn't even consider the scientific validation.  We also have the ancient writings of JosephusJosephus was jewish, was born about the time Jesus was alleged to have died. His mention of Jesus didn't appear in his writings until the 4th century. There are problems with the other examples but personally I am more than willing to accept a guy named Jesus existed, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger that validate Christ's life.  In fact, we have less proof for the existance of someone like Alexander the Great than we do Jesus Christ.  Within the fields of biochemistry and microbiology we are continually finding increased complexity and imposible elegance in the design of human dna....the source of which is causing more and more scientists to believe in a creator.  The lead geneticist (Francis Collins) in the Human Genome project is a devout Christian and an expert in his field.  Even he indicated that 40% of the scientists in his field are now believers.   We find the same elegance and complexity in the design of the universe and a growing populations of physicists who continually return to the likelihood of an intelligent design singularity in the cosmos which can't be denied unless the realm of metaphysics is explored.  Multiverses, other dimensions, time and space fluctuations have been used to justify the removal of the intelligent design singularity, but thus far even our own Stephen Hawking can't dismiss it without consulting a metaphysical approach.  I find the metaphysical debate kinda funny in that the supernatural is used to refute the supernatural (in a sense).  Philosophy has all but given up on reasoning away the existance of God as our own moral code has been embedded into who we are. Personal opinions not based on fact  We see a man drowning, we can't swim ourselves and think, "I've got to jump in and save that man."  This flies in the face our Darwinian, "only the strong will survive" mentality that would leave the man to drown without a bit of consideration for his well being.  So where did our intrinsic moral fiber originate?  The very concept of right and wrong that we all recognize and simply can't deny leaves the Godless philosphies flat..A huge jump to that conclusion..his presence is inherent in all of us whether we recognize his existance or not. Conjecture Step over to a scientific look, even carbon dating has been reviewed again and again and found that the billion year old universe is actually several thousands of years What????old given that the way we originally measured radioactive decay rates in carbon was flawed.  Correct the math and billions become thousands.  Within cellular biology with see the sheer complexity of cellular engines that power differing aspects of the cell who's probability for random chance ocurrance is near impossible.  Also the elegance of the design lends intself only to an intelligent designer.   In terms of Geology we see evidence of a worldwide flood.  Science, mathematics and history all help validate the existance of God not refute it.  

Now the mystery Gods of the Mediterrenean world have long since been debunked.  Mithra, Dionysis, Osiris, Horus, I would add Jehovah, Allah, Elohimetc.....have all been debunked decades and decades ago.  The primary debunking (prior to any comparisons being made) are found in the 2nd century origination of these God myths.... the life of Christ and Christianity arose in the first century. The only exceptions to this debunking of timing are in reference to Horus and Osiris.  Further the sun God Horus has no ties or real comparisons to Jesus Christ.....just study Horus and Osiris and you'll find this true.  Everyone saw Religulous and the new generation of uninformed viewers feel prey to old an arguement that was debunked long before they were alive.  So why did the producers present the movie?  Oh I don't know, they hate Christians and love money and know the majority of the audience would be ignorant on these topics.  I'm no scientist, historian, etc....I'm just trying to learn like everyone else.

As C.S. Lewis so eloquently put it, "In the end there will be only two types of people.  Those that look at God and say 'thy will be done' and those that God looks at and says, 'Thy will be done'."   My hope and prayer is that the love of God be made evident in the lives of believers and nonbelievers alike.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on May 30, 2011, 12:19:14 PM

Ya cause Mos really said that every single verse in the Bible has an Archeological site with its name on it    ::)
  There are 100's of Archeological sites related to the Bible. Where are the giants?, c'mon now...giant bones found all over the place, this isn't even up for debate

To claim Jesus isn't the sun of God, well I can understand where youre coming from, don't agree, but I can understand...To claim a man name Jesus that walked about the first centrury in Palestine_Isreal region didnt exist altogether is outrages
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 30, 2011, 03:42:34 PM


You know, my three favorite bible stories growing up were Samson and Delilah, David and Goliath and Noah’s Ark.  Man, I have wanted my entire life to see the ark found or even part of the ark found, but I don’t know if the gopher wood would last through all those centuries….maybe it would, I don’t know.  That said, we’re left without archeological proof, but we do have geological proof of a worldwide flood in the form of oceanic sediment found at very high elevations and the evidence of fast rock erosion (ex: the Grand Canyon).  Now, we also have some debate over the term “worldwide” in the worldwide flood.  Young earth creationists believe in a definite worldwide flood while theistic evolutionists adhere to a localized mass flood around Mt Ararat and Mespotamia.  They base their claims on the alignment of scripture between Genesis and the Psalms, but that’s a separate topic.  

The rising of the saints in Matthew has been a topic discussed long before I was alive and will persist after I’m gone I’m sure LOL.  I do have earmarked in my favorites some commentary around this and I’ve pasted a portion of that essay based on the verses in Matthew here:
“And the bodies of the saints which slept, arose, and came out of
the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and
appeared unto many” (Matthew 27:52-53).
Another Calvary miracle was the resurrection of saints that accompanied the
resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our test reveals that “saints who had died” came out of the
graves that had opened three days before. The graves had been opened by the
earthquake at the death of Jesus Christ, and that the dead bodies arose and came out of
them after Christ Himself had risen, and that they went into Jerusalem and appeared
unto many. It is a statement of one of the grandest miracles, a gigantic, supernatural
exploit by God in the sense of being wholly miraculous. This statement that the bodies
arose and went into Jerusalem are self-luminous and their meaning as visible as light.
Not only are these words a part of Scripture, but though the concept of their rising at this time
of Christ’s death is so interlaced with Scripture that it could not but be there.
These saints coming out of the grave stands in line with the miraculous events of
the happenings at Calvary. It harmonizes with and explains the wonder of the opened
graves, just as that wonder was the product of the wondrous earthquake, and the
earthquake was the counterpart of the wondrous rending of the veil, that rending of the
veil answered back to the shout of victory from the Cross whose dying sufferer had just
emerged in triumph out of the almighty horrors of the symbolic darkness!
The resurrection of these saints, like the first fruit of the Jewish harvest, was an expressive
pledge of the coming general resurrection, when, from all the graveyards of the world,
wherever the mortal remains of a saint may lie, “this corruptible shall put on incorruption,
and this mortal immortality!” Our body that “is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is
sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15:53; 43-44).
Matthew tells the story of wonder, “departed saints arose, and left their graves and
went into Jerusalem, and appeared to many” And he says nothing more. Did they to into the
houses of the people or only walked the streets? Did they appear only once, or from
time to time during the forty days of the Lord’s appearing after His resurrection.
Matthew doesn’t say. How they were affected by their return to this life; whether they
spoke of the realms of the dead or of the recent entrance of Christ into those realms; how
and when they finally disappeared or whither they went, on all these topics not a word,
not so much as the faintest recognition of the possibility of such questions being asked.
No merely human pen, having said so much, could have said so little.
Matthew tells us, “They appeared unto many.” Why should they appear except to
be recognized and identified? However, Moses and Elijah wee recognized by the
disciples at the transfiguration although they had never seen either one of them before.
The Holy Spirit is able to make known to one another those who before were strangers.
He is able to do it as easily and quietly as the light shines or as a new thought comes
into the mind.

The Nile turning to blood I’ve never actually questioned before given the supernatural nature of this situation.  I simply can’t talk to it, but if I come across any other literature I’ll be sure and pass it on.

The murder of the infant boys by King Herod was simply not a significant enough situation to be noted by historians.  Some speaks of thousands being murdered, but the actuality is that the small population in this small community would have amounted to dozens not thousands.  Now, is the act in and of itself horrific?   No doubt, but the illustration of this death of innocents in Matthews is about noting the fulfilling of prophecy outlined in the book of Jeremiah in the Old Testament.  
"Thus says the LORD, 'A voice is heard in Ramah, Lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; She refuses to be comforted for her children, Because they are no more.' "
Jeremiah 31:15  

I assume the giants you’re referring to are the Annakites (sons of Annak) or the Philistine Goliath and his brother?  I can’t speak at any length in terms of archeological finds, but I do understand that large fossiled human remains have been found….I can’t say any more than that caused I’m in no way versed in the topic.  The height of Goliath has been a point of debate since some OT manuscripts note his height at 6’9” vs the traditionally recognized 9’9” (I believe or maybe it’s 9’6”….either way it’s enormous).  The exact measurements have been points of debate, but most bibles in print today footnote this possible discrepancy (most don’t read footnotes though).  Archeologists and historians have noted that the average height of men in the OT was shorter than the average today; therefore, a 6’9” man would appear as a giant let alone a 9’6” or 9’9” man.

I have nothing to add on the subject of early Old Testament figures living to be as old as 900 years and no other proof to provide other than that of the OT.  I honestly can’t provide any other nonbiblical proof on the 900 year old figures in the Old Testament folks anymore than I could provide proof for the actual existence of a 900 year old Yoda from Star Wars, but I still believe in the inerrancy of the bible and have faith in these astonishing scriptures (I know, I know….faith-based conclusions are meaningless to an agnostic or an atheist).  

In terms of historical scholarship, a 30-year span of documentation after an event is an extremely close timeframe for the validation of an event.  Others biograpies written about numerous other historical figures have occurred hundreds of years after their actual lifetimes and the historicity of the written accounts simply aren't in question.  There are literally thousands of NT manuscripts that all corroborate the same NT claims written in very shorts spans after the actual events that help validate historicity.

Saul of Tarsus was a known Christian hunter and hated all things Christian.  On the road to Damascus Saul was encountered by the resurrected Christ:
Acts 22:6-11 (New King James Version)
6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’
9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid,[a] but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10 So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ 11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.

Saul of Tarsus became Paul the Apostle and arguably the greatest advocate for the resurrected Christ and Christianity the world has ever known.  The Pauline letters to the various churches in the New Testament are monumental Christian writings and validate not only the resurrected Christ via eyewitness in Paul, but fully illustrate the transforming power of the risen God.

Josephus was a 1st century Jewish historian that documented the existence of Jesus Christ.  The 4th century writings you mention are a variant Greek translation of the original 1st century writings determined by noted scholar Alice Whealey.  They don’t invalidate the original 1st century writings, but provide a variant from a 4th century text.  The existence of Christ Jesus is not in question.

I agree on all commentary concerning the philosophical aspect.  Since they in no way invalidate the resurrected Christ and his gift of salvation I have no problem and nothing further to add.

The idea of flawed carbon dating is new science in the realm of young creationists.  It’s a hotly contested position by theistic evolutionists who also belief in the resurrected Christ, but don’t agree with young creationists.  Like my atheist and agnostic brothers and sisters often comment, we just haven’t found the definite scientific method with which we all agree upon…..but we will in time.

I’m glad that we can discuss these topics openly and without slinging insults….that says a lot about your character.  Disagreement and insult are two very different things.  We may disagree but we have no reason to hate each other or belittle each other….I respect that.






Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 30, 2011, 03:58:45 PM
The idea of flawed carbon dating is new science in the realm of young creationists.  It’s a hotly contested position by theistic evolutionists who also belief in the resurrected Christ, but don’t agree with young creationists.  Like my atheist and agnostic brothers and sisters often comment, we just haven’t found the definite scientific method with which we all agree upon…..but we will in time.


If you don't mind, I would very much like to see any sort of scientific article that puts the carbon dating in to question.

Have you forgotten that carbon dating is only useful for limited amount of time? There are a plethora of other radioactive clocks available, some of which are only good for a couple of seconds, and others for billions of years. Carbon dating is not the end all, be all for 'debunking' creationist madness. There are heaps upon heaps of evidence that support the scientific world view that the Earth is several billion years old.

Btw, what is your take on the wandering jew if I may ask?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 30, 2011, 04:32:46 PM
If you don't mind, I would very much like to see any sort of scientific article that puts the carbon dating in to question.

Have you forgotten that carbon dating is only useful for limited amount of time? There are a plethora of other radioactive clocks available, some of which are only good for a couple of seconds, and others for billions of years. Carbon dating is not the end all, be all for 'debunking' creationist madness. There are heaps upon heaps of evidence that support the scientific world view that the Earth is several billion years old.

Btw, what is your take on the wandering jew if I may ask?


Here is an article I have saved:

Scientists use a technique called radiometric dating to estimate the ages of rocks, fossils, and the earth. Many people have been led to believe that radiometric dating methods have proved the earth to be billions of years old. This has caused many in the church to reevaluate the biblical creation account, specifically the meaning of the word “day” in Genesis 1. With our focus on one particular form of radiometric dating—carbon dating—we will see that carbon dating strongly supports a young earth. Note that, contrary to a popular misconception, carbon dating is not used to date rocks at millions of years old.

Basics
Before we get into the details of how radiometric dating methods are used, we need to review some preliminary concepts from chemistry. Recall that atoms are the basic building blocks of matter. Atoms are made up of much smaller particles called protons, neutrons, and electrons. Protons and neutrons make up the center (nucleus) of the atom, and electrons form shells around the nucleus.

The number of protons in the nucleus of an atom determines the element. For example, all carbon atoms have 6 protons, all atoms of nitrogen have 7 protons, and all oxygen atoms have 8 protons. The number of neutrons in the nucleus can vary in any given type of atom. So, a carbon atom might have six neutrons, or seven, or possibly eight—but it would always have six protons. An “isotope” is any of several different forms of an element, each having different numbers of neutrons. The illustration below shows the three isotopes of carbon.

Some isotopes of certain elements are unstable; they can spontaneously change into another kind of atom in a process called “radioactive decay.” Since this process presently happens at a known measured rate, scientists attempt to use it like a “clock” to tell how long ago a rock or fossil formed. There are two main applications for radiometric dating. One is for potentially dating fossils (once-living things) using carbon-14 dating, and the other is for dating rocks and the age of the earth using uranium, potassium and other radioactive atoms.

 
The atomic number corresponds to the number of protons in an atom. Atomic mass is a combination of the number of protons and neutrons in the nucleus. (The electrons are so much lighter that they do not contribute significantly to the mass of an atom.)
Carbon-14 Dating
Carbon-14 (14C), also referred to as radiocarbon, is claimed to be a reliable dating method for determining the age of fossils up to 50,000 to 60,000 years. If this claim is true, the biblical account of a young earth (about 6,000 years) is in question, since 14C dates of tens of thousands of years are common.1

When a scientist’s interpretation of data does not match the clear meaning of the text in the Bible, we should never reinterpret the Bible. God knows just what He meant to say, and His understanding of science is infallible, whereas ours is fallible. So we should never think it necessary to modify His Word. Genesis 1 defines the days of creation to be literal days (a number with the word “day” always means a normal day in the Old Testament, and the phrase “evening and morning” further defines the days as literal days). Since the Bible is the inspired Word of God, we should examine the validity of the standard interpretation of 14C dating by asking several questions:

1.Is the explanation of the data derived from empirical, observational science, or an interpretation of past events (historical science)?
2.Are there any assumptions involved in the dating method?
3.Are the dates provided by 14C dating consistent with what we observe?
4.Do all scientists accept the 14C dating method as reliable and accurate?
All radiometric dating methods use scientific procedures in the present to interpret what has happened in the past. The procedures used are not necessarily in question. The interpretation of past events is in question. The secular (evolutionary) worldview interprets the universe and world to be billions of years old. The Bible teaches a young universe and earth. Which worldview does science support? Can carbon-14 dating help solve the mystery of which worldview is more accurate?

The use of carbon-14 dating is often misunderstood. Carbon-14 is mostly used to date once-living things (organic material). It cannot be used directly to date rocks; however, it can potentially be used to put time constraints on some inorganic material such as diamonds (diamonds could contain carbon-14). Because of the rapid rate of decay of 14C, it can only give dates in the thousands-of-year range and not millions.

There are three different naturally occurring varieties (isotopes) of carbon: 12C, 13C, and 14C.

Carbon-14 is used for dating because it is unstable (radioactive), whereas 12C and 13C are stable. Radioactive means that 14C will decay (emit radiation) over time and become a different element. During this process (called “beta decay”) a neutron in the 14C atom will be converted into a proton. By losing one neutron and gaining one proton, 14C is changed into nitrogen-14 (14N = 7 protons and 7 neutrons).

  If 14C is constantly decaying, will the earth eventually run out of 14C? The answer is no. Carbon-14 is constantly being added to the atmosphere. Cosmic rays from outer space, which contain high levels of energy, bombard the earth’s upper atmosphere. These cosmic rays collide with atoms in the atmosphere and can cause them to come apart. Neutrons that come from these fragmented atoms collide with 14N atoms (the atmosphere is made mostly of nitrogen and oxygen) and convert them into 14C atoms (a proton changes into a neutron).

Once 14C is produced, it combines with oxygen in the atmosphere (12C behaves like 14C and also combines with oxygen) to form carbon dioxide (CO2). Because CO2 gets incorporated into plants (which means the food we eat contains 14C and 12C), all living things should have the same ratio of 14C and 12C in them as in the air we breathe.

How the Carbon-14 Dating Process Works
Once a living thing dies, the dating process begins. As long as an organism is alive it will continue to take in 14C; however, when it dies, it will stop. Since 14C is radioactive (decays into 14N), the amount of 14C in a dead organism gets less and less over time. Therefore, part of the dating process involves measuring the amount of 14C that remains after some has been lost (decayed). Scientists now use a device called an “Accelerator Mass Spectrometer” (AMS) to determine the ratio of 14C to 12C, which increases the assumed accuracy to about 80,000 years. In order to actually do the dating, other things need to be known. Two such things include the following questions:

1.How fast does 14C decay?
2.What was the starting amount of 14C in the creature when it died?
The decay rate of radioactive elements is described in terms of half-life. The half-life of an atom is the amount of time it takes for half of the atoms in a sample to decay. The half-life of 14C is 5,730 years. For example, a jar starting with all 14C atoms at time zero will contain half 14C atoms and half 14N atoms at the end of 5,730 years (one half-life). At the end of 11,460 years (two half-lives) the jar will contain one-quarter 14C atoms and three-quarter 14N atoms.

Since the half-life of 14C is known (how fast it decays), the only part left to determine is the starting amount of 14C in a fossil. If scientists know the original amount of 14C in a creature when it died, they can measure the current amount and then calculate how many half-lives have passed.

Since no one was there to measure the amount of 14C when a creature died, scientists need to find a method to determine how much 14C has decayed. To do this, scientists use the main isotope of carbon, called carbon-12 (12C). Because 12C is a stable isotope of carbon, it will remain constant; however, the amount of 14C will decrease after a creature dies. All living things take in carbon (14C and 12C) from eating and breathing. Therefore, the ratio of 14C to 12C in living creatures will be the same as in the atmosphere. This ratio turns out to be about one 14C atom for every 1 trillion 12C atoms. Scientists can use this ratio to help determine the starting amount of 14C.

When an organism dies, this ratio (1 to 1 trillion) will begin to change. The amount of 12C will remain constant, but the amount of 14C will become less and less. The smaller the ratio, the longer the organism has been dead. The following illustration demonstrates how the age is estimated using this ratio.

Percent 14C Remaining Percent 12C Remaining  Ratio Number of Half-Lives Years Dead(Age of Fossil)
100 100 1 to 1T 0 0
50 100 1 to 2T 1 5,730
25 100 1 to 4T 2 11,460
12.5 100 1 to 8T 3 17,190
6.25 100 1 to 16T 4 22,920
3.125 100 1 to 32T 5 28,650

T = Trillion

A Critical Assumption
A critical assumption used in carbon-14 dating has to do with this ratio. It is assumed that the ratio of 14C to 12C in the atmosphere has always been the same as it is today (1 to 1 trillion). If this assumption is true, then the AMS 14C dating method is valid up to about 80,000 years. Beyond this number, the instruments scientists use would not be able to detect enough remaining 14C to be useful in age estimates. This is a critical assumption in the dating process. If this assumption is not true, then the method will give incorrect dates. What could cause this ratio to change? If the production rate of 14C in the atmosphere is not equal to the removal rate (mostly through decay), this ratio will change. In other words, the amount of 14C being produced in the atmosphere must equal the amount being removed to be in a steady state (also called “equilibrium”). If this is not true, the ratio of 14C to 12C is not a constant, which would make knowing the starting amount of 14C in a specimen difficult or impossible to accurately determine.

Dr. Willard Libby, the founder of the carbon-14 dating method, assumed this ratio to be constant. His reasoning was based on a belief in evolution, which assumes the earth must be billions of years old. Assumptions in the scientific community are extremely important. If the starting assumption is false, all the calculations based on that assumption might be correct but still give a wrong conclusion.

In Dr. Libby’s original work, he noted that the atmosphere did not appear to be in equilibrium. This was a troubling idea for Dr. Libby since he believed the world was billions of years old and enough time had passed to achieve equilibrium. Dr. Libby’s calculations showed that if the earth started with no 14C in the atmosphere, it would take up to 30,000 years to build up to a steady state (equilibrium).

If the cosmic radiation has remained at its present intensity for 20,000 or 30,000 years, and if the carbon reservoir has not changed appreciably in this time, then there exists at the present time a complete balance between the rate of disintegration of radiocarbon atoms and the rate of assimilation of new radiocarbon atoms for all material in the life-cycle.2
Dr. Libby chose to ignore this discrepancy (nonequilibrium state), and he attributed it to experimental error. However, the discrepancy has turned out to be very real. The ratio of 14C /12C is not constant.

The Specific Production Rate (SPR) of C-14 is known to be 18.8 atoms per gram of total carbon per minute. The Specific Decay Rate (SDR) is known to be only 16.1 disintegrations per gram per minute.3
What does this mean? If it takes about 30,000 years to reach equilibrium and 14C is still out of equilibrium, then maybe the earth is not very old.

Magnetic Field of the Earth
Other factors can affect the production rate of 14C in the atmosphere. The earth has a magnetic field around it which helps protect us from harmful radiation from outer space. This magnetic field is decaying (getting weaker). The stronger the field is around the earth, the fewer the number of cosmic rays that are able to reach the atmosphere. This would result in a smaller production of 14C in the atmosphere in earth’s past.

The cause for the long term variation of the C-14 level is not known. The variation is certainly partially the result of a change in the cosmic ray production rate of radiocarbon. The cosmic-ray flux, and hence the production rate of C-14, is a function not only of the solar activity but also of the magnetic dipole moment of the Earth.4
Though complex, this history of the earth’s magnetic field agrees with Barnes’ basic hypothesis, that the field has always freely decayed.... The field has always been losing energy despite its variations, so it cannot be more than 10,000 years old.5
Earth’s magnetic field is fading. Today it is about 10 percent weaker than it was when German mathematician Carl Friedrich Gauss started keeping tabs on it in 1845, scientists say.6
If the production rate of 14C in the atmosphere was less in the past, dates given using the carbon-14 method would incorrectly assume that more 14C had decayed out of a specimen than what has actually occurred. This would result in giving older dates than the true age.

Genesis Flood
What role might the Genesis Flood have played in the amount of carbon? The Flood would have buried large amounts of carbon from living organisms (plant and animal) to form today’s fossil fuels (coal, oil, etc.). The amount of fossil fuels indicates there must have been a vastly larger quantity of vegetation in existence prior to the Flood than exists today. This means that the biosphere just prior to the Flood might have had 500 times more carbon in living organisms than today. This would further dilute the amount of 14C and cause the 14C/12C ratio to be much smaller than today.

If that were the case, and this C-14 were distributed uniformly throughout the biosphere, and the total amount of biosphere C were, for example, 500 times that of today’s world, the resulting C-14/C-12 ratio would be 1/500 of today’s level....7
When the Flood is taken into account along with the decay of the magnetic field, it is reasonable to believe that the assumption of equilibrium is a false assumption.

Because of this false assumption, any age estimates using 14C prior to the Flood will give much older dates than the true age. Pre-Flood material would be dated at perhaps ten times the true age.

The RATE Group Findings
In 1997 an eight-year research project was started to investigate the age of the earth. The group was called the RATE group (Radioisotopes and the Age of The Earth). The team of scientists included:

■Larry Vardiman, PhD Atmospheric Science
■Russell Humphreys, PhD Physics
■Eugene Chaffin, PhD Physics
■John Baumgardner, PhD Geophysics
■Donald DeYoung, PhD Physics
■Steven Austin, PhD Geology
■Andrew Snelling, PhD Geology
■Steven Boyd, PhD Hebraic and Cognate Studies
The objective was to gather data commonly ignored or censored by evolutionary standards of dating. The scientists reviewed the assumptions and procedures used in estimating the ages of rocks and fossils. The results of the carbon-14 dating demonstrated serious problems for long geologic ages. For example, a series of fossilized wood samples that conventionally have been dated according to their host strata to be from Tertiary to Permian (40-250 million years old) all yielded significant, detectable levels of carbon-14 that would conventionally equate to only 30,000-45,000 years “ages” for the original trees.8 Similarly, a survey of the conventional radiocarbon journals resulted in more than forty examples of supposedly ancient organic materials, including limestones, that contained carbon-14, as reported by leading laboratories.9

Samples were then taken from ten different coal layers that, according to evolutionists, represent different time periods in the geologic column (Cenozoic, Mesozoic, and Paleozoic). The RATE group obtained these ten coal samples from the U.S. Department of Energy Coal Sample Bank, from samples collected from major coalfields across the United States. The chosen coal samples, which dated millions to hundreds of millions of years old based on standard evolution time estimates, all contained measurable amounts of 14C. In all cases, careful precautions were taken to eliminate any possibility of contamination from other sources. Samples, in all three “time periods”, displayed significant amounts of 14C. This is a significant discovery. Since the half-life of 14C is relatively short (5,730 years), there should be no detectable 14C left after about 100,000 years. The average 14C estimated age for all the layers from these three time periods was approximately 50,000 years. However, using a more realistic pre-Flood 14C /12C ratio reduces that age to about 5,000 years.

These results indicate that the entire geologic column is less than 100,000 years old—and could be much younger. This confirms the Bible and challenges the evolutionary idea of long geologic ages.

Because the lifetime of C-14 is so brief, these AMS [Accelerator Mass Spectrometer] measurements pose an obvious challenge to the standard geological timescale that assigns millions to hundreds of millions of years to this part of the rock layer.10
Another noteworthy observation from the RATE group was the amount of 14C found in diamonds. Secular scientists have estimated the ages of diamonds to be millions to billions of years old using other radiometric dating methods. These methods are also based on questionable assumptions and are discussed elsewhere11. Because of their hardness, diamonds (the hardest known substance) are extremely resistant to contamination through chemical exchange. Since diamonds are considered to be so old by evolutionary standards, finding any 14C in them would be strong support for a recent creation.

The RATE group analyzed twelve diamond samples for possible carbon-14 content. Similar to the coal results, all twelve diamond samples contained detectable, but lower levels of 14C. These findings are powerful evidence that coal and diamonds cannot be the millions or billions of years old that evolutionists claim. Indeed, these RATE findings of detectable 14C in diamonds have been confirmed independently.12 Carbon-14 found in fossils at all layers of the geologic column, in coal and in diamonds, is evidence which confirms the biblical timescale of thousands of years and not billions.

Because of C-14’s short half-life, such a finding would argue that carbon and probably the entire physical earth as well must have a recent origin.13
Conclusion
All radiometric dating methods are based on assumptions about events that happened in the past. If the assumptions are accepted as true (as is typically done in the evolutionary dating processes), results can be biased toward a desired age. In the reported ages given in textbooks and other journals, these evolutionary assumptions have not been questioned, while results inconsistent with long ages have been censored. When the assumptions were evaluated and shown faulty, the results supported the biblical account of a global Flood and young earth. Christians should not be afraid of radiometric dating methods. Carbon-14 dating is really the friend of Christians, and it supports a young earth.

The RATE scientists are convinced that the popular idea attributed to geologist Charles Lyell from nearly two centuries ago, “The present is the key to the past,” is simply not valid for an earth history of millions or billions of years. An alternative interpretation of the carbon-14 data is that the earth experienced a global flood catastrophe which laid down most of the rock strata and fossils.... Whatever the source of the carbon-14, its presence in nearly every sample tested worldwide is a strong challenge to an ancient age. Carbon-14 data is now firmly on the side of the young-earth view of history.
Is this true?  I don't know.  I've read other dissenting opinions and other favoring opinions, but saved this article cause it had the most content to refer to.  

Again I've attached some commentary from a saved article concerning Matthew 16:28:

John would not die before Christ returned -

Atheists claim that there are false prophesies in the Bible, such as the one that predicts that the early saints would be there for Christ's glorious (2nd) coming, and that John would not taste death. This is the specific prophecy that they are referring to:

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

This prophecy was actually fulfilled in its entirety in the late first century. If you read the book of Revelation, you will see that John, the apostle to whom the prophecy was directed, saw Jesus coming in His glory to establish His kingdom. This is what the entire book of revelation describes - the second coming of Jesus Christ. John saw it all in a vision, as it will happen. The prophecy was fulfilled! The prophecy does not say that John would not die before Christ returned. It said that he would not die before seeing the return of Jesus Christ. What is awesome about the vision reported by John is that he did not understand what he was seeing, but reported it as he saw it. As such, he includes descriptions of a giant meteor collision with the earth, battles with mechanized machines that sound like tanks, and huge armies (200,000,000 men), which would not even be possible until at least the 20th century.



Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: lovemonkey on May 30, 2011, 05:23:57 PM

Here is an article I have saved:


Wow that's a huge wall of text and I don't have the time to go through all of it.. but some things did stand out

Quote
When a scientist’s interpretation of data does not match the clear meaning of the text in the Bible, we should never reinterpret the Bible. God knows just what He meant to say, and His understanding of science is infallible, whereas ours is fallible. So we should never think it necessary to modify His Word.

This sort of closed mindedness immediately disqualifies them from any sort of scientific discourse. They're saying that their hypothesis is not falsifiable, which makes it in turn a terrible scientific theory. They've obviously set out to 'prove' their own view of the world and not find out any sort of objective truth, whatever it might be.

Quote
Though complex, this history of the earth’s magnetic field agrees with Barnes’ basic hypothesis, that the field has always freely decayed.... The field has always been losing energy despite its variations, so it cannot be more than 10,000 years old.

Proof for this? 100 dollars say that they're talking right out of their asses. The magnetic field of the earth has been proven to shift over time-intervals that far exceeds the one of creationism. On what basis do they make that statement?


Also, carbon dating is not a super precise instrument of dating objects given it's margin of error around about 3% for older objects and it's even bigger for younger objects. This is not by any means new to anyone in the know. But the cool thing here is that the older the object one is trying to date, the more accurate of a reading you get. The margin of error gets progressively smaller the further back on the timescale you're measuring. And we're not talking 5000-700 years back, but up to 50-60000 years.

The article you've quoted really doesn't bring anything new to the table, all it does is taking things out context and twisting(ie fabricating) them to fit their agenda.


Btw, although unrelated to this particular discussion, I'm curios if you've heard of this evolutionary experiment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment)

It's evolution happening right in front of us.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 30, 2011, 05:41:25 PM
Wow that's a huge wall of text and I don't have the time to go through all of it.. but some things did stand out

This sort of closed mindedness immediately disqualifies them from any sort of scientific discourse. They're saying that their hypothesis is not falsifiable, which makes it in turn a terrible scientific theory. They've obviously set out to 'prove' their own view of the world and not find out any sort of objective truth, whatever it might be.

Proof for this? 100 dollars say that they're talking right out of their asses. The magnetic field of the earth has been proven to shift over time-intervals that far exceeds the one of creationism. On what basis do they make that statement?


Also, carbon dating is not a super precise instrument of dating objects given it's margin of error around about 3% for older objects and it's even bigger for younger objects. This is not by any means new to anyone in the know. But the cool thing here is that the older the object one is trying to date, the more accurate of a reading you get. The margin of error gets progressively smaller the further back on the timescale you're measuring. And we're not talking 5000-700 years back, but up to 50-60000 years.

The article you've quoted really doesn't bring anything new to the table, all it does is taking things out context and twisting(ie fabricating) them to fit their agenda.


Btw, although unrelated to this particular discussion, I'm curios if you've heard of this evolutionary experiment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment)

It's evolution happening right in front of us.

No I haven't....don't know a thing about it.  I'll give it a read....hopefully I'll understand it all LOL!!  

Thx
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Deicide on May 30, 2011, 07:03:54 PM


Good post.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 31, 2011, 07:01:19 AM
Ya cause Mos really said that every single verse in the Bible has an Archeological site with its name on it    ::)
  There are 100's of Archeological sites related to the Bible. Where are the giants?, c'mon now...giant bones found all over the place, this isn't even up for debate

To claim Jesus isn't the sun of God, well I can understand where youre coming from, don't agree, but I can understand...To claim a man name Jesus that walked about the first centrury in Palestine_Isreal region didnt exist altogether is outrages

To claim Jesus is the Son of God would require more evidence than stories from a book that has issues. But as I said, I concede that historically, a man called Jesus more than likely existed.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 31, 2011, 07:16:51 AM
You know, my three favorite bible stories growing up were Samson and Delilah, David and Goliath and Noah’s Ark.  Man, I have wanted my entire life to see the ark found or even part of the ark found, but I don’t know if the gopher wood would last through all those centuries….maybe it would, I don’t know.  That said, we’re left without archeological proof, but we do have geological proof of a worldwide flood in the form of oceanic sediment found at very high elevations and the evidence of fast rock erosion (ex: the Grand Canyon).  Now, we also have some debate over the term “worldwide” in the worldwide flood.  Young earth creationists believe in a definite worldwide flood while theistic evolutionists adhere to a localized mass flood around Mt Ararat and Mespotamia.  They base their claims on the alignment of scripture between Genesis and the Psalms, but that’s a separate topic.  

The rising of the saints in Matthew has been a topic discussed long before I was alive and will persist after I’m gone I’m sure LOL.  I do have earmarked in my favorites some commentary around this and I’ve pasted a portion of that essay based on the verses in Matthew here:
“And the bodies of the saints which slept, arose, and came out of
the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and
appeared unto many” (Matthew 27:52-53).
Another Calvary miracle was the resurrection of saints that accompanied the
resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our test reveals that “saints who had died” came out of the
graves that had opened three days before. The graves had been opened by the
earthquake at the death of Jesus Christ, and that the dead bodies arose and came out of
them after Christ Himself had risen, and that they went into Jerusalem and appeared
unto many. It is a statement of one of the grandest miracles, a gigantic, supernatural
exploit by God in the sense of being wholly miraculous. This statement that the bodies
arose and went into Jerusalem are self-luminous and their meaning as visible as light.
Not only are these words a part of Scripture, but though the concept of their rising at this time
of Christ’s death is so interlaced with Scripture that it could not but be there.
These saints coming out of the grave stands in line with the miraculous events of
the happenings at Calvary. It harmonizes with and explains the wonder of the opened
graves, just as that wonder was the product of the wondrous earthquake, and the
earthquake was the counterpart of the wondrous rending of the veil, that rending of the
veil answered back to the shout of victory from the Cross whose dying sufferer had just
emerged in triumph out of the almighty horrors of the symbolic darkness!
The resurrection of these saints, like the first fruit of the Jewish harvest, was an expressive
pledge of the coming general resurrection, when, from all the graveyards of the world,
wherever the mortal remains of a saint may lie, “this corruptible shall put on incorruption,
and this mortal immortality!” Our body that “is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is
sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15:53; 43-44).
Matthew tells the story of wonder, “departed saints arose, and left their graves and
went into Jerusalem, and appeared to many” And he says nothing more. Did they to into the
houses of the people or only walked the streets? Did they appear only once, or from
time to time during the forty days of the Lord’s appearing after His resurrection.
Matthew doesn’t say. How they were affected by their return to this life; whether they
spoke of the realms of the dead or of the recent entrance of Christ into those realms; how
and when they finally disappeared or whither they went, on all these topics not a word,
not so much as the faintest recognition of the possibility of such questions being asked.
No merely human pen, having said so much, could have said so little.
Matthew tells us, “They appeared unto many.” Why should they appear except to
be recognized and identified? However, Moses and Elijah wee recognized by the
disciples at the transfiguration although they had never seen either one of them before.
The Holy Spirit is able to make known to one another those who before were strangers.
He is able to do it as easily and quietly as the light shines or as a new thought comes
into the mind.

The Nile turning to blood I’ve never actually questioned before given the supernatural nature of this situation.  I simply can’t talk to it, but if I come across any other literature I’ll be sure and pass it on.

The murder of the infant boys by King Herod was simply not a significant enough situation to be noted by historians.  Some speaks of thousands being murdered, but the actuality is that the small population in this small community would have amounted to dozens not thousands.  Now, is the act in and of itself horrific?   No doubt, but the illustration of this death of innocents in Matthews is about noting the fulfilling of prophecy outlined in the book of Jeremiah in the Old Testament.  
"Thus says the LORD, 'A voice is heard in Ramah, Lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; She refuses to be comforted for her children, Because they are no more.' "
Jeremiah 31:15  

I assume the giants you’re referring to are the Annakites (sons of Annak) or the Philistine Goliath and his brother?  I can’t speak at any length in terms of archeological finds, but I do understand that large fossiled human remains have been found….I can’t say any more than that caused I’m in no way versed in the topic.  The height of Goliath has been a point of debate since some OT manuscripts note his height at 6’9” vs the traditionally recognized 9’9” (I believe or maybe it’s 9’6”….either way it’s enormous).  The exact measurements have been points of debate, but most bibles in print today footnote this possible discrepancy (most don’t read footnotes though).  Archeologists and historians have noted that the average height of men in the OT was shorter than the average today; therefore, a 6’9” man would appear as a giant let alone a 9’6” or 9’9” man.

I have nothing to add on the subject of early Old Testament figures living to be as old as 900 years and no other proof to provide other than that of the OT.  I honestly can’t provide any other nonbiblical proof on the 900 year old figures in the Old Testament folks anymore than I could provide proof for the actual existence of a 900 year old Yoda from Star Wars, but I still believe in the inerrancy of the bible and have faith in these astonishing scriptures (I know, I know….faith-based conclusions are meaningless to an agnostic or an atheist).  

In terms of historical scholarship, a 30-year span of documentation after an event is an extremely close timeframe for the validation of an event.  Others biograpies written about numerous other historical figures have occurred hundreds of years after their actual lifetimes and the historicity of the written accounts simply aren't in question.  There are literally thousands of NT manuscripts that all corroborate the same NT claims written in very shorts spans after the actual events that help validate historicity.

Saul of Tarsus was a known Christian hunter and hated all things Christian.  On the road to Damascus Saul was encountered by the resurrected Christ:
Acts 22:6-11 (New King James Version)
6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’
9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid,[a] but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10 So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ 11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.

Saul of Tarsus became Paul the Apostle and arguably the greatest advocate for the resurrected Christ and Christianity the world has ever known.  The Pauline letters to the various churches in the New Testament are monumental Christian writings and validate not only the resurrected Christ via eyewitness in Paul, but fully illustrate the transforming power of the risen God.

Josephus was a 1st century Jewish historian that documented the existence of Jesus Christ.  The 4th century writings you mention are a variant Greek translation of the original 1st century writings determined by noted scholar Alice Whealey.  They don’t invalidate the original 1st century writings, but provide a variant from a 4th century text.  The existence of Christ Jesus is not in question.

I agree on all commentary concerning the philosophical aspect.  Since they in no way invalidate the resurrected Christ and his gift of salvation I have no problem and nothing further to add.

The idea of flawed carbon dating is new science in the realm of young creationists.  It’s a hotly contested position by theistic evolutionists who also belief in the resurrected Christ, but don’t agree with young creationists.  Like my atheist and agnostic brothers and sisters often comment, we just haven’t found the definite scientific method with which we all agree upon…..but we will in time.

I’m glad that we can discuss these topics openly and without slinging insults….that says a lot about your character.  Disagreement and insult are two very different things.  We may disagree but we have no reason to hate each other or belittle each other….I respect that.








Like we've said before, it is a great thing to discuss differences of opinion in a civil matter. I enjoy it a lot. I read you're excerpt about dead saints rising and walking through the city to be seen by many. Honestly it uses a lot of words to really say nothing. The glaring problem still exists.. the bible says dead saints arouse from their graves and went into the city and appeared to many. In all of history, only one person thought it important enough to comment on it.. Matthew. His comment is the ONLY evidence of such a miraculous event. I'm sorry, but that just falls way to short for me as evidence. The fact no historian ever commented on such an event speaks volumes. In a related note, the fact no chinese historian, who we have numerous records of, never mentions the sun stopping in the sky and what we know about the universe now, tends to destroy any credibility of the old testament author who says different.

On a side note, without cheating..... who cut Samons hair? 
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 31, 2011, 07:57:27 AM
Like we've said before, it is a great thing to discuss differences of opinion in a civil matter. I enjoy it a lot. I read you're excerpt about dead saints rising and walking through the city to be seen by many. Honestly it uses a lot of words to really say nothing. The glaring problem still exists.. the bible says dead saints arouse from their graves and went into the city and appeared to many. In all of history, only one person thought it important enough to comment on it.. Matthew. His comment is the ONLY evidence of such a miraculous event. I'm sorry, but that just falls way to short for me as evidence. The fact no historian ever commented on such an event speaks volumes. In a related note, the fact no chinese historian, who we have numerous records of, never mentions the sun stopping in the sky and what we know about the universe now, tends to destroy any credibility of the old testament author who says different.

On a side note, without cheating..... who cut Samons hair?  

Without cheating LOL?  I don't get it; anyways, when Samson feel asleep Delilah called for someone to cut his hair....a servant of hers I guess.  Story is in the OT book of Judges.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: Man of Steel on May 31, 2011, 08:27:51 AM
Without cheating LOL?  I don't get it; anyways, when Samson feel asleep Delilah called for someone to cut his hair....a servant of hers I guess.  Story is in the OT book of Judges.



Just because I know how much you fellas appreciate this banter I provided some extra context around the "Who cut Samson's hair?" situation:

NOTES AND READINGS
Who Cut Samson's Hair?
(And Other Trifling Issues Raised by Judges 16)
rna che una femminella habbia possanza
di condurti agli errori,
non e colpa di Rege, 0 Semideo.
E un misfatto plebeo.
Monteverdi, Poppe a, I, ix
The scene which interests me is found in Judges 16.1 Delilah means to
barter the secret of Samson's strength for enormous sums of money. She tries
to coax it out of her lover; and even when leading her falsely, Samson is getting
her nearer the truth. He easily snaps the fresh bowstrings which are supposed
to keep him bound (Delilah may have hoped that there was magic in the
freshness of the ropes or rather in the number of bowstrings-seven, the same
as the sum of his hairlocks). He then similarly treats the unused ropes. She
presses on, and this time he enjoins her to manipulate his hair, the source of his
strength: were she to weave his hair-we can't really figure how-he would
lose his power. She does; but he, of course, does not. Yet she has only to ask one
more time before the terrible mystery is hers to solve. At verses 19-20, we turn
to three recent translations of the Hebrew:
New English Bible
She lulled him to sleep
on her knees,
summoned a man and
he shaved the seven
locks of his hair for
her. She began to take
him captive and his
strength left him.
Then she cried, "the
Philistines are upon
you, Samson!" He
woke from his
sleep .. . .
Nevi'im (JPS2)
She lulled him to sleep
on her lap. Then she
called in a man, and
she had him cut the
seven locks of his
head; thus she
weakened him and
made him helpless; his
strength slipped away
from him. She cried,
"Samson, the
Philistines are upon
you!" And he awoke
from his sleep . . . .
Anchor Bible
She put him to sleep
with his head on her
lap and called to the
man. She snipped off
the seven braids of his
head. Then she began
to torment him; his
strength had left him.
When she said,
"Philistines are upon
you, Samson!" he
awoke from his
sleep . . .
PROOFTEXTS 5 (1988): 333-346 @ 1988 by The Johns Hopkins University Press
334 NOTES AND READINGS
Most of the other English renderings offer minor variations to these
examples. Let's look at how each differs in the various phrases. NEB and
Nevi'im agree in how they translate the first phrase, y':;rp.-' mo/!T;11. NEB is
too literal with "knees," perhaps, but since it is not likely that anyone would
imagine Delilah falling on her knees, begging Samson to fall asleep, the
translation should not cause problems. AB, however, worries about the
reader's comprehension and adds "with his head on her lap."
The verb llU' to sleep, does not take a direct object and it operates as an
adjectival verb, that is, it tells you about the condition of the subjects rather
than about the action they take. When such verbs are conjugated in the D-stem
(piel), they often acquire a factitive quality, allowing the subject to control the
action, but the action itself affects another. Although the D-stem of llU' is
unique to our passage, its meaning is not difficult to gauge: "Delilah brought
Samson to sleep." While the passage tells us where Samson fell asleep, -,
y'l:;t, it does not necessarily explain how Delilah managed her feat. The LXX
(Septuagint) apparently knew how, for its reading presupposes a y'l:;t-P
(unattested to in the MT [Masoretic Text]) which, because it is reminiscent of
Y'7111' of the famous Yael and Sisera episode (Jud. 5:27), can suggest a postcoital
torpor. Y'l:;t-'' however, is where the Shunnamite placed her sick child
(2 Kings 4:20) and the circumstance here is sexually innocent. I do not want to
imply that Delilah rocked Samson to a Philistine version of Brahms' lullaby; but
I think that the phrase Y'l:;t-' mO/T;11 poses a problem that requires further
elaboration.
It is commonly assumed that Delilah is, if not a prostitute, at least a
courtesan. But the text has little to say about this. We don't even know
whether she is Philistine or not, for the Sorek valley edged Danite and
Philistine territories. Her name, whatever its meaning, follows excellent
Semitic construction. We presume that the storyteller does not want us to
think her Hebrew, but only because Samson is destined to choose only
foreigners (14:4). It is true that Samson was involved with a Gaza prostitute in
the episode just preceding (16:1-4). On that occasion, however, we are not told
of Samson's feeling towards the woman; he seems to have sought her purely to
gratify his sexual urge. The visit was all business, lasted until midnight and was
probably not repeated. However, this particular scene served the storyteller
well, for it allowed him to relate one more anecdote about Samson's strength.
Samson's feelings towards women proves to be shallow even in that dolorous
and drawn-out occasion when he sought to marry a Timna woman. To his
parents, he confides only that "1 find her attractive '':;J. iTl1P K'iT':;l; (14:3, and
also 7)."2 Nothing profounder than sexual drive ever binds Samson to his wife
and "love," the emotion, is neither directed to someone nor is it reciprocated; it
is cited only when the woman from Timna accuses Samson of lacking it (14:16).
When involved with Delilah, however, Samson is in love, and befitting this
unique display of his feeling, Delilah is the only woman in the Samson
narratives to bear a name (even Samson's mother is nameless). Now, surprising
as it may seem, when applied to human beings, the vocabulary for love-that is
the root aheb and its derivatives-is used very sparingly in Hebrew narratives.
Moreover, its terminology is not homogeneous in usage. Isaac and Rebeccah,
Jacob and Rachel and Elkanah and Hannah are the only married couples
4;* 4 $ 2. § ( ,t 4# ILA ;; , ; g i
Prooft exts 335
wherein husbands are said to harbor love for their spouses. Jacob, of course,
loved Rachel as soon as he saw her and Michal loved David at first sight too, but
with less than happy results. Ahasuerus and Rehoboam, respectively, are said
to love Esther and Maacah more than other women. Solomon loved many, but
apparently not one with devotion. We have two occasions in which love led to
abuse of women: when Hamor loved Dinah, and when Amnon harbored a
passion for his sister.3 Samson's love for Delilah never has a chance to find a
full response, for she is but an instrument in a game in which God had
something to prove.
The storyteller's readiness to betray the intensity of Samson's feeling for
Delilah, however, allows us better to set the scene in which Samson finally
gives up his secret. Unlike the previous occasions in which time was either too
diffuse (Samson and the woman from Timna) or without consequence to the
action (Samson and the whore of Gaza), once Delilah is commissioned by the
Philistines to uncover Samson's secret, all subsequent relationship between
them occurs within the selfsame day. In the first two instances where Samson
leads Delilah astray, the story does not even bother to tell us whether he is
asleep or not. It may be that he closes his eyes long enough for the Philistines to
hand Delilah what she needs, but the storyteller evidently does not think it
necessary to share with us further information on Samson's wakefulness and
the Philistines are not brought back on stage until after Samson is shaved. Even
during the third episode, when the LXX found it necessary to speak of
Samson's sleep, the Hebrew text says only that Samson awakens to find his
hair woven.
As Delilah strives once more to discover his secret, we learn why the
storyteller needed to tell us of Samson's love. Contrasting the earlier episode
where Samson is accused of harboring hate rather than love for the woman
from Timna, on this occasion Delilah can refer to love as an emotion that is
indeed Samson's. "How can you say, 'I love you,'" she protests, "when you do
not confide in me?" The text tells us that Delilah repeats her plea tlr,liJ-'
which is usually translated, "every day," "daily," or "day after day." This is
presumably because of the Timna circumstance that is deemed parallel (14:17-
18). But tlr,liJ-' merely refers to an act that is repeated regularly, regardless
of how long the repetition takes before it ends (see BOB 400, 7,£); it could take
months; it could end in minutes. In fact, it is a much better scene to have
Delilah harping on this accusation over one afternoon than to have it spread
over days or weeks. I offer two arguments to bolster this opinion, one internal
to the story, the other comparative.
When Delilah addresses Samson for the first time, she rephrases the
Philistines' request, without noticing how incongruous such words are when
addressed to a lover. The request includes three separate components: 1. "what
makes you strong?" 2. "what would bind you?" 3. "so that you could be
weakened." These three elements are never brought together again in any of
the subsequent queries. Thus, in the second and third episodes only "what
would bind you?" appears, while the fourth features only "what makes you
strong?" Yet each one of Samson's responses (but the third which is highly
apocopated4) requires us to presume all three components as sous-entendues. Such
a presumption is most natural if there is temporal unity to our scene.
336 NOTES AND READINGS
The second argument requires me to turn to one of two demotic tales
relating the adventures of prince Setne Khamwas and his son Si-Osiris: "Setne
Khamwas and Naneferkaptah."5 I need not detail the various episodes in which
this prince tries to find ultimate secrets in hidden books (some of which
probably inspired Spielberg's Raiders of the Lost Ark), but in one of his many
adventures, Setne falls in violent lust for T abubu. Daughter of the prophet of
Bastet though she may be, the woman is actually for hire, but at the highest
price. Tabubu does not surrender to Setne, but at successive moments demands
from him his fortune, his property, and finally, the death of his own children.
The sordid depth to which Setne sinks when seeking Tabubu's favor is
brilliantly portrayed; but his condition acquires poignancy because it all
happens in one evening's surrender to passion.
Setne is spared facing the consequences of his own obsession, because
Tabubu, it turns out, is but a nightmare. It is otherwise for Samson who, once
he discloses his God-ordained secret to Delilah, has to face a reality that is all
too horrible. To her who had accused him of not confiding in her N;1 p-!j: :P71)
he tells everything (t:l7-7-I1 i1?-'1), radically altering his own future.
The translations which I give above begin to fidget at this point. As is
common to Hebrew narrative style, if subjects are to control more than one
verb in a single scene, they are most often made to control a sequence of three
verbs. This must have been the Masorites' own feeling about our passage, for
.they punctuated verse 19a accordingly: they broke it into three distinct parts,
placing major disjunctive accents (Zaqeph qaton), each over iTI::,l. and w' and
then a major verse divider (Atnah) under lWXi. (I shall come back to the rest of
the verse presently.) NEB's translation is here least committed to this tripling
rule: Delilah lulls Samson to sleep and summons a man who, in turn, becomes
the subject of the third (emended) verb. Delilah returns as subject in 19b.
Nevi'im OPS2) has her lulling Samson to sleep, then calling in a man whom she
has cut Samson's hair. AB has Delilah putting Samson to sleep and calling a
man who is left with nothing to do, for Delilah ends up wielding the razor. AB,
however, is the most faithful to the Hebrew.
The Hebrew reads: ilLlxi I1ilJ7r;ll;l l1W-I1 n?m ILI'? X1R1'l1 and we need
to look at the second verb before coming back to the first. Legalleab occurs only
in the D (Piel) and HtD (Hithpael) stems. In the D, it most often controls a
direct object, but once it is reflexive (Genesis 41:14). In the absence of scissors
in the ancient Near East, razors are commonly used, and hence it would be
more accurate to render by "shaving" or "cutting" the hair rather than
"snipping" it, although we are not required to imagine Delilah lovingly soaping
the hair before running her blade on the scalp.6 What is important to note is
that in all of its occurrences, the verb never bears a causative or even factitive
meaning, hence if there is shaving to be done, it must be by Delilah. It is of
course possible to emend the verbal form into *wayyegallab. and thus have the
man as subject; but this would be a rather desperate measure to force the text
into saying what we think happened in the story. It is also possible to revocalize
into a causative stem (*wattagleab.), in order to have Delilah make someone
shave Samson; but the resulting form is not likely for this verb in Hebrew.
Therefore, Delilah must be given full responsibility for her act, and we
should reject the renderings of NEB and Nevi'im. Once we do this, we are left
in the AB's quandary, what to do with the man whom Delilah summons?
i I' : I
Prooflexls 337
Now if there is a man to summon, we cannot pull him out from among the
Philistines who are awaiting word that his strength is indeed gone. To begin
with, the language is different. The word which has been used previously, oreb, is
normally used in Hebrew to speak of a group of ambushers; here we are
mentioning a single individual, tl7l:t. Furthermore, the sequence would be all
wrong here. In the two previous occasions, these gentlemen are summoned affer
Delilah acts to neutralize Samson. Thus in verses 9-10, Delilah ties Samson
with the bowstrings and, as the ambushers lie in wait, she awakes her lover. In
verse 12, we again find Delilah calling to the ambushers after she binds
Samson. Finally, to bring the man from among the Philistines in wait would
compromise a minor motif within this chapter, which has to do with the
distance the Philistines kept between themselves and Samson, even as they
searched for instruments to physically control him. Because of the frequent
drubbings Samson handed them, the Philistines have learned to be cautious. At
every one of Delilah's three previous warnings to Samson about an imminent
attack, no Philistine was ready to pounce on the shackled Samson. Therefore, we
have reason to doubt that any of them would heroically break out from hiding
in order to help Delilah shear an unfettered Samson.
In fact, there is reason to doubt that any throng of Philistines was close to
Delilah's boudoir when she finally loosens the secret from Samson! To my
mind, one of the more interesting aspects of Delilah's involvement with
Samson is that her credibility with the Philistines progressively weakens even
as her influence on Samson grows. While they are first to approach with
promises of enormous fortunes and prOVide her with fresh bowstrings with
which to bind Samson, Delilah is left to her own devices from then on. Perhaps
they had come to doubt Delilah's success; it is more likely, however, that the
narrator wants to sharpen our focus on the relationship between Samson and
Delilah and has therefore resolved to leave the scene uncluttered. It is only
after she is convinced of her own mastery of the situation that she sends for
them and that the Philistines show up, money in hand; but this time around
they do not necessarily stay close to their nemesis. In fact, even after he is
shorn of his strength, Samson must be allotted this space in which to become
aware of his impotence and the Philistines ought not intrude to spoil the
discovery scene by their presence. They, in fact, come back into the foreground
at verse 21.
Who is the man, then, that Delilah is calling? And what is he to do for her?
Boling, who wrote the commentary on Judges for the AB series, is one of many
who wonder whether the man brought her the razor or assisted her in cutting
the hair. But what was he doing until that moment? Is he there to report on the
weakening of Samson, or will he serve as punching-bag, alerting the others to
Delilah's failure? Perhaps he was merely an acolyte to a Levantine maithuna,
watching and serving the two as they made love? A kinky scene that has its
merits, I must admit; but definitely one to waste the effort of a teller, who is
normally parsimonious with characters without future.
My colleague Gary A. Herion, who subtly shades his appreciation of
Scripture's literary quality, thinks that the narrator may be ambushing the
reader by introducing a character unexpectedly. Plot becomes subordinate to
effect as the audience is startled by the vocabulary for the unexpected presence;
338 NOTES AND READINGS
and it is this response that the teller is seeking in order to better channel the
attention towards Samson's predicament.
This might well be so, but I find the proposal overly subtle. My own
inclination is to propose that the man, in fact, does not exist. The second of
Delilah's acts is 1Lf!:t7 rqp.t;11. In Hebrew, the verb x-,p means to utter a sound;
but to determine how that sound is functioning, a preposition is needed to
control that verb. True, when the preposition le- is involved, the resulting idiom
does mean "to summon"; but it can also mean merely to shout to someone. In
our passage, this someone is given to us as 1Lf!:t, "man." The Masorites have
vocalized the word as 1Lf!:t7' "to the man," and not to "a(ny) man," ("le'is). This
"man" therefore is not referring to an unknown person, but has as antecedent
the series of pronominal suffixes alluding to the only male who is featured in
our story: Samson himself.7 In Hebrew such a distribution of nouns and
antecedents is not syntactically obtuse; but it may help us recognize the
structure better if we transpose 1Lf!:t and the third person masculine singular
pronominal suffix that occurs last: '7 X'1P.t;11ILf'!:tiTI1 lWT;11* etc. . . .
Delilah, in sum, shouts at Samson; and reassured by how deeply he sleeps,
she wields the razor. 8
A few more words remain to be said about the rest of the sentence. 7Q-01
'I1iJl!? serves to bind Judges 16 into a whole, and the verbal form need not be
emended (as proposed by Nevi'im and others). iI11Jll? runs through the Delilah
episode and we first meet with it when the Philistines declare their intention to
imprison and abuse Samson. It is picked up by Delilah and serves as the third
component of her initial query. This twofold repetition within two verses
serves the narrator well, for it allows him to comment on the degree that a
lovestruck Samson foolishly refuses to be warned about Delilah. The masculine
version of the form 7n' occurs in 22, allowing us an insight not available to
Samson during his long gestation in a Philistine prison: Even as Delilah is
shearing Samson's hair, God has decided to restore him to grace. Therefore, by
following the Masoretic punctuation, I arrive at this rendering of the passage:
Bringing him to sleep on her lap, she called to the man [Samson], then
began to cut the seven braids on his hair. Delilah started to weaken him,
and his strength slipped away from him. When she yelled, "Philistines are
attacking you, Samson," he shook off his sleep and thought, "This time too,
I will come out of this by breaking free," obviously not realizing that God
had turned away from him.
The Philistines seized him and gouged his eyes out; they brought him
to Gaza and chained him with bronze fetters. In prison, he became a
grinder of grain. But his hair started to grow as he was being shaved.
JACK M. SASSON
Department of Religious Studies
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

If you need the footnotes I can cut and paste those as well.

Yes, the all the bibles I currently own indicate that Delilah called for someone else to cut Samson's hair, but apparently there are controversies (I'm shocked LOL!!).  Apparently a more literal translation of the Hebrew indicates that Delilah herself cut Samson's hair.  I wonder if anyone knows the name of the donkey that Samson used the jawbone from to defend himself and defeat a 1000 men with?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: no parole on June 03, 2011, 04:05:28 PM
   My testimony alone is not sufficient, it's just my personal relationship and experience


That's a start. You are at least beginning to show signs that what you have to put all out here on the table is just wishful thinking. I believe someday that you will come to terms with all of this and see that it's all nonsense, you are a bright individual.

 
Quote
Another tremendous difference is that the Islamic god Allah is far removed and impersonal from his followers.....a bit ironic given this equivalent state of passion you mentioned. 

They are just as devoted to their beliefs, which is my point. It can be to the point of insanity, such as suicide bombings in radical cases. You could have your head cut off if you went to Mecca and stated the Islamic god Allah is far removed and impersonal from his followers. That is just not true my friend.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: no parole on June 03, 2011, 04:16:00 PM
To claim Jesus is the Son of God would require more evidence than stories from a book that has issues. But as I said, I concede that historically, a man called Jesus more than likely existed.

I've read that during the era of Jesus, there were around 20 or so notable Jewish historians of his time, none mention his name.This was a person that drew crowds of thousands and stirred great controversy with authoritative people. All the sermons, the miracles performed, the trail, the crucifixion - nothing was ever mentioned of this or of Jesus.
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: loco on June 06, 2011, 06:57:06 AM
I've read that during the era of Jesus, there were around 20 or so notable Jewish historians of his time, none mention his name.This was a person that drew crowds of thousands and stirred great controversy with authoritative people. All the sermons, the miracles performed, the trail, the crucifixion - nothing was ever mentioned of this or of Jesus.

Who were these 20 notable Jewish historians?
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on June 06, 2011, 07:06:05 AM
Often we think all the witnesses to Jesus Christ are found in the Bible. There are several early statements made by non-Christians that bear witness to Him. These are given below.

1. Emperor Tiberitus (14-37) or Claudius (41-54) issued an edict against grave robbing. An inscription of it was found in Nazareth. It reads:


"Ordinances of Caesar, it is my pleasure that graves and tombs remain undisturbed in perpetuity for those who have made them for the cult of their ancestors or children or members of their house. If however any man lay information that another has either demolished them, or has in any other way extracted the buried, or has maliciously transferred them to other places in order to wrong them, or has displaced the sealing of other stones, against such one I order that a trial be instituted, as in respect of the gods, so in regard to the cult of mortals. For it shall be much more obligatory to honor the buried. Let it be absolutely forbidden for anyone to disturb them, in case of contravention I desire that the offender be sentenced to capital punishment on charge of violation of sepuiture."
Before this time punishment would had been mild. Why was it changed to death? We know this decreed was soon after Christ's resurrection. Was it due to a reaction against the turmoil in Israel caused His resurrection?

2. Josephus (A.D. 37-100), the Jewish historian, would wrote a generation after Jesus Christ, makes several references to people well-known to New Testament readers. F. F. Bruce summarized the evidence:


"Here, in the pages of Josephus, we meet many figures who are well known to us from the New Testament; the colorful family of the Herods; the Roman emperors Augustus, Tiberius, Claudius, and the procurators of Judea; the high priestly families--Annas, Caiaphas, Ananias, and the rest; the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and so on" (F. F. Bruce, New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? p.104.)
He wrote explicitly about Jesus:


"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. . . . Pilate condemned Him to be condemned and to die. And those who had become His disciples did not abandon His discipleship. They reported that He had appeared to them three days after His crucifixion and that He was alive; accordingly, He was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders" (Antiquities, xviii.ch. 3, subtopic 3, Arabic text).
"Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew ever to him both many of the Jews, and many Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestions of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to be condemned and to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not foesake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and the ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities, xviii.ch. 3, subtopic 3, Greek text).

Note: The above are disputed passages, especially the second one. Josephus writing were handed down through Christian scribes. No Jew cared for this Jew turned Roman General. Since Josephus was not a Christian it is unlikely statement like "if it be lawful to call him a man ," "he was the Christ," etc. Surely words were added to these statements, especially to the second one. No unbelieving Jew would made such statements about Jesus.

Josephus also wrote about James, the brother of Jesus.

"(Ananus) assembled the sanhedrin of the judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he deliever them to be stoned" (Antiquities XX 9:1).
3. Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55?-after 117), the Roman Historian, wrote of Nero's attempt to relieve himself of the guilt of burning Rome:


"Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also" (Annals XV.44).
4. Lucian (second century), Greek Satirist, alludes to Christ in these words:


"The man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world. . . . Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws" (On the Death of Peregrine).
5. Suetonius (c. A.D. 120), a Roman Historian and court official under Hadrian made two references to Christ. In the Life of Claudius (25.4) he wrote


"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chestus [another spelling of Christus or Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome."
In the Lives of the Caesars (26.2) he wrote:


"Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition."
6. Pliny the Younger (c. A.D. 112), when writing to the emperor about his achievements as governor of Bithynia, wrote how he had killed multitudes of Christian men, women, and children. He wrote:


"All who denied that they were or had been Christians I consider should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence, with incense and wine, your [the emperor's] image . . . they curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do" (Epistles, X.96).
He also wrote in the same letter:


"[Christians} were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse of a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, and never to deny a truth when they should be called upon to deliver it up."
7. Thallus (c. A.D. 52) was a Samaritan-born historian. Julius Africanus (c. A.D. 221) wrote:


"Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness [at the time of the crucifixion] as an eclipse of the sun-unreasonably, as it seems to me."
This was unreasonable, of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was the time of the paschal full moon when Christ died.

8. Mara Bar Serapion (after A.D. 73) wrote a letter that now resides in the British Museum. According to F. F. Bruce it was written by a father to his son in prison. In the letter he compares the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras, and Jesus:


"What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. . . . But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given" (Bruce, op. cit., p.14).
9. The Jewish Talmud was completed by A.D. 500. The Babylonian Talmud reference to Jesus:


"On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and them herald went before him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going to be stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defense come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defense and hanged him on the eve of Passover" (Sanhedrin 43a, "Eve of Passover").
R. Shimeon ben' Azzai wrote concerning Jesus:


"I found a genealogical roll in Jerusalem wherein was recorded, Such-an-one is a bastard of an adulteress" (Yeb. IV 3; 49 a).
In summary, there are several reference to Jesus made by non-Christians. Only those made by Josephus are open to question since they were handed down through Christian scribes. The others were handed down through Roman/Latin scribes and are likely accurate copies of these writings.

by Leland M. Haines, Northville, Michigan USA. December 1997.
Copyright 1997 by Leland M. Hines, Northville, Mich.

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Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: OTHstrong on June 06, 2011, 07:09:08 AM
Who were these 20 notable Jewish historians?
I think he mis-read the part that said "didn't mention" 8) I think what it said was "did mention" ;D
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking:'There is NO heaven; it's a fairy story'- HAHHA
Post by: probound2 on July 28, 2011, 09:24:54 PM
I've read that during the era of Jesus, there were around 20 or so notable Jewish historians of his time, none mention his name.This was a person that drew crowds of thousands and stirred great controversy with authoritative people. All the sermons, the miracles performed, the trail, the crucifixion - nothing was ever mentioned of this or of Jesus.


What do you make of the calendar using Jesus as a source?