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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Radical Plato on May 22, 2011, 08:22:38 PM
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Our universe doesn’t appear to have been created by God, it appears to have been a natural consequence of events in the underlying reality. A reality so vast and energetic it has created and will create an infinite number of universes. And science is on the verge of proving this. And no God or other supernatural being is needed to explain any of this. I mean, if God exists, he created a reality that has infinite energy and will create all possible universes and has always been here and always will be here. Clever trick, but there’s no longer anything to explain. “Reality contains infinite energy, exists forever, and creates all possibilities” pretty much covers all possible contingencies.
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. And science is on the verge of proving this.
Do you have a theory name or link that represents your views to share?
What are your thoughts on from where the first matter/energy/etc came?
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What are your thoughts on from where the first matter/energy/etc came?
were did the thing that created the first matter/energy/ect come from......was it always in existence?
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were did the thing that created the first matter/energy/ect come from......was it always in existence?
If you mean God, yes I believe He was always in existence.
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If you mean God, yes I believe He was always in existence.
so there has to be a creator for the universe..but the most powerful/complex being ever needs no creator?...
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so there has to be a creator for the universe..but the most powerful/complex being ever needs no creator?...
Yes, I believe God is eternal...no beginning, no end.
What are your thoughts on the beginning of the universe? Or do you feel it's always been?
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Yes, I believe God is eternal...no beginning, no end.
What are your thoughts on the beginning of the universe? Or do you feel it's always been?
i dont care how the universe started..it has no bearing on my life...
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What's a God botherer? Someone that doesn't bother with God?
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What's a God botherer? Someone that doesn't bother with God?
Maybe he means people that do "bother" w/God?
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I have to admit that I envy believers their belief sometimes; it makes life more bearable. I simply (for genetic or some other reason) cannot believe in that sort of stuff. Some people are made such that they cannot believe.
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I have to admit that I envy believers their belief sometimes; it makes life more bearable. I simply (for genetic or some other reason) cannot believe in that sort of stuff. Some people are made such that they cannot believe.
I do get what you're saying. My best friend can't come to terms and fully belief despite the change he's clearly witnessed in me (no credit for that change is because of me though). I strayed from my faith for a number of years. I never fully left it, but I certainly wasn't engaged in it. I had many doubts, questioned numerous things and acted a fool, but when I fully surrendered to the will of God the veil was lifted. There's nothing like being broken down to the ground with no where on Earth to turn for real help and then you reach out to Christ and BAM.....he answers. I regret those lost years where I strayed away. I hope others that don't know Christ outside of an academic perspective can come to know him personally.
Last night my wife and daughter and I went to the hospital my grandmother was taken to last night (she fainted and is quite old) and while visiting her I passed by the ER trauma room that I was in last August. My family asked me if it was hard being here and you know what it wasn't. Despite my grandmother receiving treatment there currently, the hospital was the place that Christ reentered my life with a bang....a place where I experienced miraculous healing and the awesome love and power of God. Despite my intensive care stay there (and my grandmother's current stay) that hospital is a symbol of joy and happiness for me.
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I do get what you're saying. My best friend can't come to terms and fully belief despite the change he's clearly witnessed in me (no credit for that change is because of me though). I strayed from my faith for a number of years. I never fully left it, but I certainly wasn't engaged in it. I had many doubts, questioned numerous things and acted a fool, but when I fully surrendered to the will of God the veil was lifted. There's nothing like being broken down to the ground with no where on Earth to turn for real help and then you reach out to Christ and BAM.....he answers. I regret those lost years where I strayed away. I hope others that don't know Christ outside of an academic perspective can come to know him personally.
Last night my wife and daughter and I went to the hospital my grandmother was taken to last night (she fainted and is quite old) and while visiting her I passed by the ER trauma room that I was in last August. My family asked me if it was hard being here and you know what it wasn't. Despite my grandmother receiving treatment there currently, the hospital was the place that Christ reentered my life with a bang....a place where I experienced miraculous healing and the awesome love and power of God. Despite my intensive care stay there (and my grandmother's current stay) that hospital is a symbol of joy and happiness for me.
I don't understand anything of what you are saying but you are fortunate in some way to have this 'faith'. I will never have it.
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I don't understand anything of what you are saying but you are fortunate in some to have this 'faith'. I will never have it.
And that's cool, I don't expect you to understand it at my level....that situation was very personal to me alone. Certainly you grasp my words and that's good enough. Just know that the impossible is made possible with God and that he loves you with a love that can't be measured. My wife and daughter are the most precious things in the world to me and I love them with everything in me, but God's love for them is so much greater than anything I can imagine...that blows my mind!
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And that's cool, I don't expect you to understand it at my level....that situation was very personal to me alone. Certainly you grasp my words and that's good enough. Just know that the impossible is made possible with God and that he loves you with a love that can't be measured. My wife and daughter are the most precious things in the world to me and I love them with everything in me, but God's love for them is so much greater than anything I can imagine...that blows my mind!
Clearly religion is an immense psychological aid.
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Clearly religion is an immense psychological aid.
Perhaps, but I was talkin about Jesus Christ and salvation therein. Now, do I lean on Christ for help and guidance.....you bet!
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Perhaps, but I was talkin about Jesus Christ and salvation therein. Now, do I lean on Christ for help and guidance.....you bet!
So, you're a really big guy. What kind of weight do you push? I am sure they are very impressive numbers (no sarcasm, just honest curiosity).
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I have to admit that I envy believers their belief sometimes; it makes life more bearable. I simply (for genetic or some other reason) cannot believe in that sort of stuff. Some people are made such that they cannot believe.
I'm the same way only i don't envy them just feel sorry for them...Could you imagine dedicating your whole being to something that doesn't exist...Yea it would be great if there was this invisible fairy in the sky that if you worshiped you could spend eternity with your loved ones in paradise...however...tha t's something man created in there heads to make themselves feel better about there mortality...the weak use it as a crutch...only there so blinded by there "faith" they cant see it...my heart wishes these fairy tales of everlasting life were true...but fortunately I have a brain capable of reasonable thought that hasn't been indoctrinated into believing such fables...
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I'm the same way only i don't envy them just feel sorry for them...Could you imagine dedicating your whole being to something that doesn't exist...Yea it would be great if there was this invisible fairy in the sky that if you worshiped you could spend eternity with your loved ones in paradise...however...tha t's something man created in there heads to make themselves feel better about there mortality...the weak use it as a crutch...only there so blinded by there "faith" they cant see it...my heart wishes these fairy tales of everlasting life were true...but fortunately I have a brain capable of reasonable thought that hasn't been indoctrinated into believing such fables...
They believe it is real and thus it is fulfilling to them.
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I'm the same way only i don't envy them just feel sorry for them...Could you imagine dedicating your whole being to something that doesn't exist...Yea it would be great if there was this invisible fairy in the sky that if you worshiped you could spend eternity with your loved ones in paradise...however...tha t's something man created in there heads to make themselves feel better about there mortality...the weak use it as a crutch...only there so blinded by there "faith" they cant see it...my heart wishes these fairy tales of everlasting life were true...but fortunately I have a brain capable of reasonable thought that hasn't been indoctrinated into believing such fables...
How bout you consider leaving the insults out of the equation? It's fine if you disagree. Would I love for you to come to know Christ? Absolutely. Will I put you down if you don't? Absolutely not.
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So, you're a really big guy. What kind of weight do you push? I am sure they are very impressive numbers (no sarcasm, just honest curiosity).
Best numbers are benched 485lbs x 3; 800lb hack squats for a few reps; lying tricep extensions with 260lbs for a few reps; hammer curls with 100+ lb dbs for a few reps; bent over rows with 405lbs for a few reps; 300+ lb shoulder presses....these are some of my best numbers. Today I can still bench 400lbs. Arms are still crazy strong, but I don't get as crazy LOL....occassionally curl with 90lb dbs and tricep extensions with 225lbs....still real heavy for me. Calves I can lift a ton of weight. Hams I'd always use the stack on machines, but never did a lot of stiff-legged deads (never went over 315lbs). Lateral raises I'll go up to 85lb dbs and front raises I'll go up to 90lb dbs still.....real strong with my arms. Now I'm just trying to get healthy again and rehab my leg....I'll get there in time.
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Best numbers are benched 485lbs x 3; 800lb hack squats for a few reps; lying tricep extensions with 260lbs for a few reps; hammer curls with 100+ lb dbs for a few reps; bent over rows with 405lbs for a few reps; 300+ lb shoulder presses....these are some of my best numbers. Today I can still bench 400lbs. Arms are still crazy strong, but I don't get as crazy LOL....occassionally curl with 90lb dbs and tricep extensions with 225lbs....still real heavy for me. Calves I can lift a ton of weight. Hams I'd always use the stack on machines, but never did a lot of stiff-legged deads (never went over 315lbs). Lateral raises I'll go up to 85lb dbs and front raises I'll go up to 90lb dbs still.....real strong with my arms. Now I'm just trying to get healthy again and rehab my leg....I'll get there in time.
Those weights would crush my puny body. Very impressive!
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Was just talking about this with my friend. God, in the Judah christian sense is infinite power. It even says in the bible he is dinamic energy.
The universe and all matter therein is dinamic energy and infinite. In other words matter cannot be destroyed only converted to energy.
It is always there and always will be. Even when the sun burns out ''God'' will refuel it correct? So whos to say that all energy and therefore the universe, hasnt always existed in one form or another. That sounds weird even to me an athiest, but when u say god has always existed it sounds less weird. Thats just my christian upbringing talking though lol.
I still think the nail in the coffin to this argument is complexity needs a designer. God is x1000000 times more complex then anything we know.
So by your own logic, god needs a designer also. If he doesnt then he is less complex then what we already know, and therefore not worthy of worship.
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Was just talking about this with my friend. God, in the Judah christian sense is infinite power. It even says in the bible he is dinamic energy.
The universe and all matter therein is dinamic energy and infinite. In other words matter cannot be destroyed only converted to energy.
It is always there and always will be. Even when the sun burns out ''God'' will refuel it correct? So whos to say that all energy and therefore the universe, hasnt always existed in one form or another. That sounds weird even to me an athiest, but when u say god has always existed it sounds less weird. Thats just my christian upbringing talking though lol.
I still think the nail in the coffin to this argument is complexity needs a designer. God is x1000000 times more complex then anything we know.
So by your own logic, god needs a designer also. If he doesnt then he is less complex then what we already know, and therefore not worthy of worship.
When you humanize God then he becomes irrelevant and/or unworthy of worship. If the all-powerful, timeless, divine qualities of God are humanized and/or removed you no longer have a god. Putting God in a box and/or removing varying qualities of who God is will always change the equation. Take one hydrogen away from a H2O and you no longer have water.
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It even says in the bible he is dinamic energy.
Mitchy, can you please post the scripture you're referring to here?
I still think the nail in the coffin to this argument is complexity needs a designer. God is x1000000 times more complex then anything we know.
So by your own logic, god needs a designer also. If he doesnt then he is less complex then what we already know, and therefore not worthy of worship.
I think I missed who you are quoting when you say "by your own logic, God needs a designer [because he is more complex than anything we know]."
Can you please steer me to that quote or idea because I don't see the connection that He needs a designer.
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I think I missed who you are quoting when you say "by your own logic, God needs a designer [because he is more complex than anything we know]."
Can you please steer me to that quote or idea because I don't see the connection that He needs a designer.
It means u cant see how the universe exists without a creator yet u easily surmise that god needs no creator...It's a common irrational way of thinking used by the indoctrinated to feebly justify there dogma...It falls quit flat on educated ears..
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It means u cant see how the universe exists without a creator yet u easily surmise that god needs no creator...It's a common irrational way of thinking used by the indoctrinated to feebly justify there dogma...It falls quit flat on educated ears..
Very eloquently put, thank you cliff :)
I have given up that part of my life stella, and will no longer waste my time looking up deluded, inacurate and un sientific works of fiction. But for you I will make an exception lol. Let me see if I can find it. I was brought up useing the new world translation by the Jehovahs witnesses. So things may be a little different then what is in say King James.
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Isaiah 40: 25,26 But to whom can you people liken me, so thatI should be made his equal? says the Holy One. 26, Raise your eyes high up and see.Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom He calls even by name. Due to the ubundance of dynamic energy,he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing.
I do see here its talking about gods power, and of the stars wink wink lol.But the abundance of energy would be in God or a part of him, call it his life force if you will.
Also when you look at the context of surronding scripture, it reafirms god is dynamic energy without saying it outright.
It goes on to say, He does not tire out, He does not grow weary. He can give to true belivers dynamic energy, so that they will mount up with wings like eagles.
I just was using this as an example of how one could make the leap to if gad is energy, and everything we know in the universe is energy, then theoreticaly, the universe could have always existed, because God always existed. I would be interested to know what your translation says in this same scripture.
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only there so blinded by there "faith" they cant see it...my heart wishes these fairy tales of everlasting life were true...but fortunately I have a brain capable of reasonable thought that hasn't been indoctrinated into believing such fables...
Out of curiosity, how can you put so much "faith" in your brain, when it's been proven scientifically that we don't even come close to using it's full capacity? Do you think it's possible that you may have missed something?
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Isaiah 40: 25,26 But to whom can you people liken me, so thatI should be made his equal? says the Holy One. 26, Raise your eyes high up and see.Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom He calls even by name. Due to the ubundance of dynamic energy,he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing.
I do see here its talking about gods power, and of the stars wink wink lol.But the abundance of energy would be in God or a part of him, call it his life force if you will.
Also when you look at the context of surronding scripture, it reafirms god is dynamic energy without saying it outright.
It goes on to say, He does not tire out, He does not grow weary. He can give to true belivers dynamic energy, so that they will mount up with wings like eagles.
I just was using this as an example of how one could make the leap to if gad is energy, and everything we know in the universe is energy, then theoreticaly, the universe could have always existed, because God always existed. Butterbean you are stella right lol? I would be interested to know what your translation says in this same scripture.
Here are the verses in the NIV
25 “To whom will you compare me?
Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One.
26 Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens:
Who created all these?
He who brings out the starry host one by one
and calls forth each of them by name.
Because of his great power and mighty strength,
not one of them is missing.
Out of curiosity, how can you put so much "faith" in your brain, when it's been proven scientifically that we don't even come close to using it's full capacity? Do you think it's possible that you may have missed something?
This is a good point. Plus, we deal w/misinformation, changing our opinions/what we accept as true etc.
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Thanks babe. I never realy liked the interlinear. Seems like a dumbed down vers. to me. Seems to lose soom of the oomph, if u know what i mean. I do have great respect for the Bible, and its moral values that it can instill.
At the same time, its through study of scripture that ive actualy come the conclusions i have.
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At the same time, its through study of scripture that ive actualy come the conclusions i have.
Do you want to share/discuss some of the scriptures that lead you to these conclusions?
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Do you want to share/discuss some of the scriptures that lead you to these conclusions?
It always impresses me how you respond to folks.....cool, calm, respectful. It's always the same:
Random Poster: "I believe God doesn't exist because of my vast research in [insert topic of study here]."
Butterbean: "Would you mind sharing some of your findings with us?"
Random Poster: ****chirping crickets****
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It always impresses me how you respond to folks.....cool, calm, respectful. It's always the same:
Random Poster: "I believe God doesn't exist because of my vast research in [insert topic of study here]."
Butterbean: "Would you mind sharing some of your findings with us?"
Random Poster: ****chirping crickets****
lol..wish I was as calm and respectful irl!
I hope mitch will share if he has time. I know that some scriptures have had me scratching my head but when you delve into them, questions/doubt can disappear.
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lol..wish I was as calm and respectful irl!
I hope mitch will share if he has time. I know that some scriptures have had me scratching my head but when you delve into them, questions/doubt can disappear.
I believe most debates come down to that all important context. Scripture is sometimes very clear and other times it takes some study. I've purchased some great study bibles (both study and apologetic versions).....I love them. I often have to rely on the scholarship of much more knowledgeble folks to help me along cause I don't know it all.
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I believe most debates come down to that all important context. Scripture is sometimes very clear and other times it takes some study. I've purchased some great study bibles (both study and apologetic versions).....I love them. I often have to rely on the scholarship of much more knowledgeble folks to help me along cause I don't know it all.
Agree. I have a Ryrie Study bible that I like. Also, have been learning quite a bit in some Beth Moore bible studies. One thing was about women being silent in the church. Maybe I'll make a thread on that later.
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It isnt one or 2 specific scriptures that i look at but the bible as a whole. So many un answered ??s. It realy is the little things,
inbetween, that no one can answer, except for the same ole gods will blah blah, mystirious ways blah blah, you just have to have faith blah blah blah. It doesnt matter what religion you look at it always boils down to faith.
So heres a ? Very condensed cause i suck at typing lol.
Adam and eve sin. They are kicked from the garden. What is placed at the entrance to prevent them from entering in again?
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It always impresses me how you respond to folks.....cool, calm, respectful. It's always the same:
Random Poster: "I believe God doesn't exist because of my vast research in [insert topic of study here]."
Butterbean: "Would you mind sharing some of your findings with us?"
Random Poster: ****chirping crickets****
You don't need vast research to conclude there is no divine being. You must merely look at and examine the world. Sure, it helps to learn history, about other religions (and their claims) as well as science, but it really comes down to putting two and two together.
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well since no bothered to answer i will.
God placed 2 cherubs and a spinning sword between them to prevent enetering back into the garden.
My main questian is were did the idea or thought of a sword come from if not God?
Adam and Eve would not even grasp what a sword was. It is a human invention of war. Made for hacking off heaDS and limbs.
So we can presume God invented the concepts of war, dismemberment, and killing.
Either that or it is a fictisious story.
Either way, you got some splaining to do. lol
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You don't need vast research to conclude there is no divine being. You must merely look at and examine the world. Sure, it helps to learn history, about other religions (and their claims) as well as science, but it really comes down to putting two and two together.
See I think some people look at and examine the world and nature and think there HAS to be a divine being/creator. It just fits together too nicely and is too complex to exist in the way it does w/o one.
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It isnt one or 2 specific scriptures that i look at but the bible as a whole. So many un answered ??s. It realy is the little things,
inbetween, that no one can answer, except for the same ole gods will blah blah, mystirious ways blah blah, you just have to have faith blah blah blah. It doesnt matter what religion you look at it always boils down to faith.
So heres a ? Very condensed cause i suck at typing lol.
Adam and eve sin. They are kicked from the garden. What is placed at the entrance to prevent them from entering in again?
mitchy I think you have mentioned the flaming sword before.
Is suffering and war the main thrust of your "so many unanswered questions?"
well since no bothered to answer i will.
God placed 2 cherubs and a spinning sword between them to prevent enetering back into the garden.
My main questian is were did the idea or thought of a sword come from if not God?
Adam and Eve would not even grasp what a sword was. It is a human invention of war. Made for hacking off heaDS and limbs.
So we can presume God invented the concepts of war, dismemberment, and killing.
Either that or it is a fictisious story.
Either way, you got some splaining to do. lol
I would say the flaming sword idea came from God since He created and put it there.
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God placed 2 cherubs and a spinning sword between them to prevent enetering back into the garden.
My main questian is were did the idea or thought of a sword come from if not God?
According to the Zodiac it's the sword of Perseus :
When God sent Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, he placed a flaming sword to guard the entrance. Astronomically, when Adam (Bootes) and Eve (Virgo) fall below the horizon, Perseus rises from the east with his sword as if to be chasing them away. The description of his flaming sword can be explained by the fact that when Perseus rises from the horizon, there is a meteor shower, known as the Perseids, which appears to stream from his constellation.
Eastern Orthodox tradition says that from the time Jesus was born, the flaming sword was removed from the Garden of Eden, making it possible for humanity to re-enter Paradise
Cherubim :
The Cherubim is a very large creature that covers the entire Garden. So look in four directions. Ezekiel says it has four faces, the face of a man, a lion, an ox and an eagle. At [2] is the ox. At [5] is the lion. At [11] is the eagle. And in the south garden at [2] is the man. Combined, they protect the four cardinal points.
Each had the face of a man in front; the four had the face of a lion on the right side, the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and the four had the face of an eagle at the back. (Ezekiel 1:10)
(http://www.usbible.com/Astrology/eden_north.gif)
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See I think some people look at and examine the world and nature and think there HAS to be a divine being/creator. It just fits together too nicely and is too complex to exist in the way it does w/o one.
Given the constant natural disasters, mass extinctions and general danger in the world, I think you can hardly say it fits together nicely.
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Thanks for the answers guys, and gal lol.
No, war and surferring are not my main concerns or unanswered questions.
I know where war comes from. And suffering always follows war.
And I do agree that the world is so vast and complex that we " can not understand at this time", lol, how it all works, and were it came from. I'm not fully convinced we ever will either.
I simply don't agree in shutting off our thinking, hanging our heads, and proclaiming with utter certainty that some Divine being had to have created it all, just for the reason we don't know how or why it works. I don't know how a transmission works, but I'm not convinced God created mine.
I'm not saying i have all the answers, and I don't need them. I am perfectly happy just not knowing,much happier then when I believed
in a Creator god.
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I'm the same way only i don't envy them just feel sorry for them...Could you imagine dedicating your whole being to something that doesn't exist...Yea it would be great if there was this invisible fairy in the sky that if you worshiped you could spend eternity with your loved ones in paradise...however...tha t's something man created in there heads to make themselves feel better about there mortality...the weak use it as a crutch...only there so blinded by there "faith" they cant see it...my heart wishes these fairy tales of everlasting life were true...but fortunately I have a brain capable of reasonable thought that hasn't been indoctrinated into believing such fables...
Do you subscribe to the new Athiest way of belief or that of the old school guys like Jean Paul Sartre and Albert Camus?